Funny thing about non-toxic shot....

[JLS]

JLS, maybe I should say it more harsh/plainly... Maybe you should have thicker skin.. I disagree with many arguments on here, but i am more receptive to people's arguments when they are not derailed by a little name calling...

“You raise your voice when you should reinforce your argument.”
― Samuel Johnson


I try not to name call, but when some one says something i don't like about me, I try to address them with facts. Let them look stupid, no need to join the fray. 

Have thicker skin about what?  I'm not offended, and I won't lose one wink of sleep tonight.

[Special T]

ohh.. i must have read more into your statement about being called a bunny hugger... My mistake.

[pianoman9701]

And, we've overlooked the obvious. Most rifles couldn't handle a pure copper load because copper isn't able to form to the rifling as lead can. Your velocity would be affected and you'd actually need to use a smaller projectile for it to move through the barrel, allowing space in the rifling and a loss of compression. I'm not sure that copper bullets would work at all.

[JLS]

Piano,

I am not ignoring ballistics.  I have more than one Barnes X slug that is mushroomed out to 2x the original bullet diameter with over 95% weight retention.  In my book that is "fine".

I have shot a lot of animals with Barnes bullets, as has a good friend who kills way more stuff than I ever will.  I have never, nor has he, seen an animal NOT die from a Barnes bullet that would have died from a Partition or whatever else.

I'm not a benchrest shooter, and will never profess to be.  There may be bullets that are more accurate, how much I don't know and don't need to find out.  Any bullet that produces one shot kills under a wide variety of distances, angles, and conditions is good enough for me.

[JLS]

ohh.. i must have read more into your statement about being called a bunny hugger... My mistake.

I don't think anyone called me one, and could care less if they did because it couldn't be further from the truth.  I chaps me to see the standard response though for someone to question someone's authenticity or qualifications as a hunter, or call them a tree hugger if they don't conform to the opinion of the masses.  Stilly got called a tree hugger, and I was pointing out how asinine that is to do based on him arguing a different side of the fence.

[Curly]

I love Barnes Bullets.  They work very well.  The triple shock (TSX) was developed with rings to reduce friction when going down the barrel (it also reduces copper fouling).  Before they came-up with the TSX, they had coated bullets (they were blue); the coating reduced friction. 

But the subject is about shot............

[Stilly bay]

seems I missed alot this morning.

Pianoboy, of all things you have bloviated on this morning, I have disagreed with many. but none more so than the accusation that I am not a hunter. where the hell do you get off with that line of thought? just because my hunting and fire arms knowledge is centered around wing shooting, makes me less qualified to express my opinions on the matter? how dare you? or is it because I didn't run my mouth on a subject I was unfamiliar with, leaving you the upper hand?

I might be a lot of things, but what I am first and fore most is a hunter and an ethical one. I take high offense to your slander that I am otherwise! what are you, to take such an unbalanced route in an argument?

 further more I am a responsible hunter who knows the game he is pursuing, knows the weapon he is firing, and knows the ammunition he is shooting for its strengths and its weaknesses. I make it a point to do so before I hunt because I want my kills to be as clean as possible out of respect for the animal, the sport, and other sportsmen. would it be responsible for anyone to do any less before they went to the woods?

to say I know nothing of steel shot is erroneous, aside from target shooting, I have shot steel exclusively for the last 15 years. I have field tested and wrote reviews for non toxics as they became available... I have patterned hundreds of different loads, and chokes and shot sizes. furthermre I am pretty sure I have shot more clays with steel shot than many the members participating in this thread. as boring as this is,  I will point back on my original statement
"lead is not better than steel, steel is not better than lead. lead shot loads and steel shot loads are two completely different things each with their own virtues and negatives, get over it" and that steel is perfectly capable of killing birds at acceptable ranges, just like lead is more than capable of crippling birds at long ranges.  you cannot compare boats to cars. you cannot compare apples to oranges, and you cannot compare bullets to pellets they are completely different.
if you want to continue to slander my personal abilities and knowledge as a responsible hunter please do so over PM and maybe we can compare notes as to who has donated more in personal time and money for this sport AND conservation. we can even do it face to face if you like.

hell if you want we can meet up for a steel shot only sporting clays match to determine who has the biggest shells, the loser leaves this site and the winner can be happy he wasted a whole bunch on time on something trivial.

either way choose your words a little more carefully because your statements have been very weak as well as lopsided and make you look a fool.

[Special T]

I must say that i think the main reason why hunters seem to fail at getting much done is because we seem to focus more on the things we disagree with than the things that 90% of us could get behind.     This is one of those topics that get people heated but don't ammount to a pile of 

[Stilly bay]

I must say that i think the main reason why hunters seem to fail at getting much done is because we seem to focus more on the things we disagree with than the things that 90% of us could get behind.     This is one of those topics that get people heated but don't ammount to a pile of 

this I can agree with one hundred percent, even if it only took 7 pages for me to get there.

[fethrduster]

I can't use steel in any of the guns I shoot birds with, because I happen to like older sxs's, from the 1890's to 1930's, especially 16's.  For me, it is mostly a cost issue if I'm forced to switch from lead.  Bismuth, Tungsten matrix, nice shot, etc all run $50-$75/box of 25.  That seems an unreasonable penalty for someone who happens to dislike modern guns.  I also don't doubt that lead does cause harm in significant quantities, but I seriously doubt it has any verifiable effect in the wide open uplands.  If it does, why don't we ever see lead poisoned chukars or quail?   I need to see verifiable science to sway my opinion, and I say that as someone who is sympathetic with environmental causes for the most part.

[AWS]

I find it intresting how $35/bx got to $100/box in 3 pages. 

And reading some of the coments on copper bullets and steel and lead patterning kind of leaves a person wonderring.

[fethrduster]

I must say that i think the main reason why hunters seem to fail at getting much done is because we seem to focus more on the things we disagree with than the things that 90% of us could get behind.     This is one of those topics that get people heated but don't ammount to a pile of 

this I can agree with one hundred percent, even if it only took 7 pages for me to get there.

Good on you.  Intolerance and disrespect for another's opinions does indeed get very tiresome. 

[Fishnfowler]

Rich Guy, that'a a joke, but I have my priorities.  I hunt, My life is hunting or preparing for the next season.  I live on my SS and what I saved and invested for 30yrs of Truck driving and warehouse work.   I don't smoke go to restraunts, stay in motels, go on cruises, hire quides, go to movies, or waste my money on anything but bird and coyote hunting with an occasional deer hunt with my family. 

Because I know what lead can do to people and game I choose to hunt with non toxics, and because of that I support the lead ban.

There is no gun in my cabinet that is so sacred that I would stop hunting because I couldn't shoot lead in it.  The past couple of years I've been trading off some of my stuff that will lose alot of value when lead is banned and it will happen. 

My problem with this is that you claim to know what "lead can do," so you support a ban.  Just because lead can cause poisoning, doesn't mean that it does when scattered over the shrub steppe.  Your fear and incorrect rationalization do not equate to truth.  Additionally, just because you are comfortable divesting yourself of old firearms, does not justify forcing me to shelve mine out of paranoia.  I've got guns that have been in my family for over a hundred years, if this state outlaws lead in all the uplands, I'll quietly move myself to another state.

[AWS]

My warehouse years were with an abatement company, we removed lead, asbestos, mold and bio hazards, I went to the classes and handled the stuff on a daily basis.   I'm old enough to remember when Tobacco was harmless and Asbestos was a miracle material, and use and installed them, I still worry everytime I go in for a chest xray and hope they don't find a spot.

There are good reasons we abandoned lead water pipes, lead in plumbing solder, paint and lead in gasoline, it harms people and the environment.  We have been able to find effective replacements.  How long do we wait, till there are massive die offs because the insignificant lead finally built up to a problem like it did for waterfowl, or maybe we'll find out that a major aquafer is contaminated and we have to pay double or triple for our drinking water.  As far as moving good luck this problem isn't just in WA other states have banned Lead shot on public lands and and it is growing.

Learning to live with non toxics is not that painful,  I said I was getting rid of guns that that would lose value when lead ban is in place, not getting rid of heirlooms.  For the old guys I load soft non toxics and they still go out in the field allot and have upgraded to steel safe guns for high volume shooting.  For me $35 a box for soft non toxics that are loaded for my guns and is effective in the field isn't unreasonable,  it isn't that much more than premium lead field loads or or premium steel.

[fethrduster]

My warehouse years were with an abatement company, we removed lead, asbestos, mold and bio hazards, I went to the classes and handled the stuff on a daily basis.   I'm old enough to remember when Tobacco was harmless and Asbestos was a miracle material, and use and installed them, I still worry everytime I go in for a chest xray and hope they don't find a spot.

There are good reasons we abandoned lead water pipes, lead in plumbing solder, paint and lead in gasoline, it harms people and the environment.  We have been able to find effective replacements.  How long do we wait, till there are massive die offs because the insignificant lead finally built up to a problem like it did for waterfowl, or maybe we'll find out that a major aquafer is contaminated and we have to pay double or triple for our drinking water.  As far as moving good luck this problem isn't just in WA other states have banned Lead shot on public lands and and it is growing.

Learning to live with non toxics is not that painful,  I said I was getting rid of guns that that would lose value when lead ban is in place, not getting rid of heirlooms.  For the old guys I load soft non toxics and they still go out in the field allot and have upgraded to steel safe guns for high volume shooting.  For me $35 a box for soft non toxics that are loaded for my guns and is effective in the field isn't unreasonable,  it isn't that much more than premium lead field loads or or premium steel.

Where are you finding soft non toxics for $35/box?  I've seen them at that price for a box of 10, but the cheapest I've seen for a box of 25 is $70.