Funny thing about non-toxic shot....

[Curly]

That is a pretty gun.

[h2ofowlr]

I never hear people rant about how great it is on here. That must mean that nobody wants it, yet fish and game insist half of the upland hunters in WA are for all for using it.
Just sayin' it.....

Many of the people haven't had the opportunity to use lead in the field or just smaller shot sizes on upland birds.  Most of those shots are at close range over pointer or flushers, so they may not truly appreciate the differences that exist.  Your pheasant, chucker and quail are fairly thin skinned, vs. your larger ducks and geese.  I shot lead in my youthful days and it was extremely effective at dropping birds.  I saw a study at one time and the biggest concern was possible impact the surrounding waterways, swan kill and predator kill.  Their are still swans dying from lead ingestion as they root around to the deeper areas.  A smaller percentage of ducks were dying from it as it sinks deeper into the muck as the bottom settles.
I also saw some estimate, but unfortunately don't have the exact numbers of the % of estimated waterfowl and other avian that die due to lead poisoning vs. what the estimated % cripple loss that would be due to steel.  You have to use speed in steel to kill as it looses velocity quickly.  Lead doesn't have to travel as fast as it carries.  It deforms on impact which causes greater channel wound.  Like the Black Cloud loads, the Hevi-Shot which are like snowmen, Square shot.  They are trying to create these channel wound's which lead was very effective at.  Unfortunately I used to pay about $3-$6 per box and now can pay from $30 for 25 rounds or $20 for 10 rounds of Hevi-Metal.  It sucks as we had some of the most effective loads available, but the bio's didn't like the casualties and everyone is taught that lead causes birth defects in Californian’s.  Lead was definitely the king of waterfowl loads.
It doesn’t make you a better shot shooting expensive stuff.  That all comes with practice.  Unfortunately most people practice with lead and then go shoot steel.  Then their leads are all off.  I practice a lot, know my effective kill zones, so I can still shoot the less expensive stuff and outperform those shooting the expensive stuff.

[fethrduster]

One of the things I hate most about steel is that you have to shoot a heavy howitzer capable of handling those high velocity magnum loads.  Speed kills but it isn't fun to shoot.  Not to mention the wound channels of #2 or #3 steel can be horrific as it blows huge holes in the meat of any duck you happen to get with it.   Not the best table fare either as compared with smaller, heavier pellets.

[fethrduster]

Cool pics but 3 bucks a round  That's a spendy duck limit 

Indeed.  I can only afford a box or two a year.  If I hunted ducks more often, I'd have to use steel, kicking and screaming...

[AWS]

Most of my duck hunting is on saltwater, so the good guns stay home and the 870 and steel are used for most of my duck hunts.  Steel kills ducks and geese just fine for me.


If I'm hunting fresh water where I don't have to worry about damage to my gun from the enviroment I'm hunting with an old Husky hammer gun, it is just so much more fun.


I don't even want to think about hunting upland with anything but a lightweight classic gun.  My Darne is the gun of choice there.  But I did pick up a little 20ga Bobwhite for a backup.


I only use soft nontoxic in the old timers, if they made steel loads that would work through them without damaging the barrels I'd use it.

As for ITX and Nice Shot raising pressure, yes that is true if you just substitute them for lead.  I don't, I use load date specificly designed for low pressure loads in my old guns.

[Stilly bay]

here's STILLY!

You want proof that lead is way better than steel?  If steel is sooooooooooo good and equal to lead, then why in the hell do we have companies making nontoxic shot that almost weighs as much as lead?  If steel is soooooooooo good and equal to lead would we really need, heavi shot?  Bismuth?  Or any of the nontoxics that are being made today to mimic lead for 3 or 4 times the cost of steel?   The only thing steel is good for is feeding coyotes with cripples.

Yeah I know, right?
never once in this thread did I -or anyone- say steel was better than lead. and  I never even said they were equal. I said they were different. you remember sesame street? "one of these things is not like the other"?
  I just want to know why all you lead heads think you cannot effectively kill birds with steel when millions of people have been crunching birds with steel shot for decades? show me some empirical data and leave your anecdotes at home.

 Unfortunately I used to pay about $3-$6 per box and now can pay from $30 for 25 rounds or $20 for 10 rounds of Hevi-Metal. 

.  Lead was definitely the king of waterfowl loads.

It doesn’t make you a better shot shooting expensive stuff.  That all comes with practice.  Unfortunately most people practice with lead and then go shoot steel.  Then their leads are all off.  I practice a lot, know my effective kill zones, so I can still shoot the less expensive stuff and outperform those shooting the expensive stuff.

and this is why I believe steel shat has received such a bad wrap from the sporting community. people say price is and obstacle so they practice with lead (if they practice at all) wich is considerably slower than many steel loads. consequently if your practice rounds don't match your field rounds your going to throw away even more money. then more birds only get the fringe of a pattern and wind up crippled or missed entirely.

I agree whole heartedly lead WAS the king of waterfowl load, and obviously its absence has left a void in many a duck hunters heart...

the price of todays steel shot duck loads versus yesterdays lead shot duck load IMO is pretty flimsy argument.
granted the price of a box seems high, but so does the price of gas and everything else. back in 1980 you could get 20 acres of land on camano island for 30K....
 today you would be hard pressed to find a box of good quality lead shot meant for tackling large birds for less than a mediocre box of steel. I know they are out there but take a look around, many quality lead game loads are no bargain. of course walmart sells lead for $6 a box but those are trap loads, are you really going to hunt waterfowl with trap loads?

granted some non toxics are outrageously expensive, but what you are paying for is a heavier than lead high performance round that would outperform lead in many other ways. if all prices were completely equal you gotta ask your self... would you be shooting lead or the stuff that is advertised to kill much farther and more deaderer?

One of the things I hate most about steel is that you have to shoot a heavy howitzer capable of handling those high velocity magnum loads.  Speed kills but it isn't fun to shoot.  Not to mention the wound channels of #2 or #3 steel can be horrific as it blows huge holes in the meat of any duck you happen to get with it.   Not the best table fare either as compared with smaller, heavier pellets.

actually -respectfully- for upland birds at reasonable ranges (over pointers or well trained flushers) , and ducks over decoys the need for a Howitzer, ultra fast loads, and huge shot size isn't necessary.  you would really be surprised at what a 2 3/4" twenty gauge can do with #4 or 5 shot traveling at a puny 1300 fps (granted 1300 fps is kinda fast compared to many lead loads) some studies have shown that large pellets -#2- are less effective for pheasants than smaller shot because they will wad up in the feathers before impact. I have killed plenty of wild pheasants with 20gauge  steel 3/4 oz #71/2 shot and they all came down dead. I have also killed my share of ducks with steel #4 or even #6- if they were over the decoys they were dead... but it was hell picking all the tiny pellets out.

....of course there is really no place for steel shot in the vintage gun community, you guys are going to really take a hit if lead goes away forever. which sucks since there is nothing cooler than a 100 year old gun in the field dropping birds.

[fethrduster]

Stilly, I recently picked up a plastic stocked Stevens 311 16ga sxs for saltwater/high volume duck duty over decoys and backup/dog training gun.  It was made in the 60's, but t's choked ic/m, so I'm not worried about hurting the barrels using steel.  I only paid $129 for it at Cabelas anyway.  Federal makes a #4 and #2 steel load in 16ga that should be ok for ducks.  I reload for 16 also, so I can probably work up a good steel duck load if the need arises. As for steel in the uplands, I never have used it, and as long as I can afford good no tox for the few upland situations that require no tox so far (pheasants on release sites) in my nice vintage iupland guns, I never will.  I really do hate the stuff, but it does have its place, reluctantly so. 

[Stilly bay]

Stilly, I recently picked up a plastic stocked Stevens 311 16ga sxs for saltwater/high volume duck duty over decoys and backup/dog training gun.  It was made in the 60's, but t's choked ic/m, so I'm not worried about hurting the barrels using steel.  I only paid $129 for it at Cabelas anyway.  Federal makes a #4 and #2 steel load in 16ga that should be ok for ducks.  I reload for 16 also, so I can probably work up a good steel duck load if the need arises. As for steel in the uplands, I never have used it, and as long as I can afford good no tox for the few upland situations that require no tox so far (pheasants on release sites) in my nice vintage iupland guns, I never will.  I really do hate the stuff, but it does have its place, reluctantly so. 

I have been dying to get my hands on a modern 16 gauge, mainly to see what it can do with steel. from a ballistic/load/superior pattern standpoint I think a 16 would be the perfect gauge for steel in the uplands or over the decoys - if you just have to use steel that is.

 from my understanding 16 gauge is as about a square a load as you can get, with its shorter shot string its gotta hit like a ton of bricks. while steel Three inch 20 gauge and 3 1/2" 12 gauge rounds have much longer strings which IMO inherently lead toward lighter moving patterns and more cripples than a stubby 2 3/4" lead 12 gauge load.

[fethrduster]

Stilly, I recently picked up a plastic stocked Stevens 311 16ga sxs for saltwater/high volume duck duty over decoys and backup/dog training gun.  It was made in the 60's, but t's choked ic/m, so I'm not worried about hurting the barrels using steel.  I only paid $129 for it at Cabelas anyway.  Federal makes a #4 and #2 steel load in 16ga that should be ok for ducks.  I reload for 16 also, so I can probably work up a good steel duck load if the need arises. As for steel in the uplands, I never have used it, and as long as I can afford good no tox for the few upland situations that require no tox so far (pheasants on release sites) in my nice vintage iupland guns, I never will.  I really do hate the stuff, but it does have its place, reluctantly so. 

I have been dying to get my hands on a modern 16 gauge, mainly to see what it can do with steel. from a ballistic/load/superior pattern standpoint I think a 16 would be the perfect gauge for steel in the uplands or over the decoys - if you just have to use steel that is.

 from my understanding 16 gauge is as about a square a load as you can get, with its shorter shot string its gotta hit like a ton of bricks. while steel Three inch 20 gauge and 3 1/2" 12 gauge rounds have much longer strings which IMO inherently lead toward lighter moving patterns and more cripples than a stubby 2 3/4" lead 12 gauge load.

Yes, 16's are very versatile.  It's called the queen of the uplands for a reason. A 1 oz. load in a svelte 16 is as close to shotgunning perfection as it gets in my opinion.  There's not much that flies that can't be killed with that load.   Load them up or down from 3/4 to 1 1/4oz, there's not much they're not good at except heavy waterfowling/long range pass shooting, and their smaller frames feel great between the hands and are much less cumbersome.   I have three 16's and a 12.  Don't see much need for anything else.  Personally I think 3.5" 12's are an abomination.   I had one once and sold it after I fired off a few of those howitzer rounds. What a waste.  Good marketing though.  Suckered me in when I was younger and dumber. 

[Dave Workman]

Actually, (unfortunately) there is a following of pro non toxic on the board. They are quite insistant that despite the EPA not wanting to regulate upland bird they are all for it in Washington.

Reasons

If you can't afford it then don't hunt.

This is perhaps the one reaction that defines how elitist these butt plugs are.

funny thing about lead shot is you rarely hear people rant about how great it is... they just rant about how they don't want it taken away.

This suggests some rather selective reading, IMHO. I've read, and even WRITTEN, about the attributes of lead shot for shooting birds in motion.

lead is not better than steel, steel is not better than lead. lead shot load and steel shot loads are two completely different things each with their own virtues and negatives, get over it.

Lead and bismuth are nearly identical in terms of performance.  Bismuth is pricey. 

Steel tries to duplicate performance with duplex loads and other gimmickry.

Many people will never like steel and prefer lead. Get over it.

[Special T]

There are very few metals that have the same density as lead, and all of the cost more.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-alloys-densities-d_50.html
I think that the different kinds of steel shot like flight stopper and such are better advances with steel shot and will gain a following. There is no substitute for lead especially for price and performance. 

[snowshoes22]

I love lead and copper plated lead even better.   

[fethrduster]

I love lead and copper plated lead even better.   

RST sells a 1200fps 1oz. 2.5" copper plated lead round in 12,16,and 20ga that is deadly.  About $15/box.  RST's are fantastic rounds for hunting and targets, and perform great in any gun, from vintage to modern. I highly recommend them.  See www.rstshells.com.

[CP]

I make my own:

12g – Remington 2 ¾” hulls

7/8 oz shot – Win 209 primer – WAA12L – 18.0g Clays – 1250fps

1oz shot – Win 209 primer – WAA12SL – 18.4g Clays – 1235fps

1 1/8oz – CCI  209M primer – WAA12 – 24.5g Herco – 1250fps

1 ¼ oz – CCI 209M primer – SP 12 – 24.5g Herco – 1250fps

1 3/8 oz – CCI 209M primer – RP 12 – 35.5g Blue Dot – 1310fps