Quality Elk vs Bull Elk Special Permit?

[kirkl]

one is a rut hunt (quality) and one isnt (bull elk)

Not true at all...

Well what is your reasoning?

For archery alot of the time the woods are shut down during the hunt.  Also the toutle and mudflow are quality but they are the same elk that are in the margraet

what do u mean by the wood are shut down?

As in its fire season?

The bull elk hunt are still rut hunts its just a way for the state to make more money.. if u look at the regs the dates are during the rut for archery elk in both categories.

Bull elk hunts starting Oct 22nd for MF are not a rut hunt. Yes, you may have a few still wanting to rut and bugle but it is not considered a rut hunt like you are stating.

[Fullabull]

why do you say very few...when archery get ZERO! Archery hunters would love to get as many as either of the other two groups and there is not reason for them not to.....Do you not agree?

[Chesapeake]

The issue isnt that the rifle guys get a great shot at a prime rut hunt. I have no idea where folks are getting the "if you dont think its fair" nonsense. Its great that the rifle guys have those tags to try for.

The issue is that Archery doesnt get any prime rut tags to try for. And WM hardly has enough to pic from to fill out your 2 or 4 choices on a permit.

And the "you could get a rifle tag and use your bow" is another line of BS. To expect a guy to give up regular season archery and be relegated to modern rifle season just for a slight chance at a prime rut tag is nothing but a bad joke.

In my opinion this all started to go down hill when they started the "equalization between user groups" stuff several years back. Ever since that started they have continued to shorten and shift muzzy and archery seasons, lengthen rifle season, and migrate all the best draws over to rifle. All in an effort to equalize harvest between user groups.

And maybe thats the way it should be. I couldnt say. But I can say archery and muzzy have spiraled downhill from what they were 5 or 6 years back. Rifle has seemed to remain stable or slightly improve. But again, maybe thats what needed to happen to bring rifle on par with muzzy and archery. Again, I couldnt say.



 

[Fireant11]

why do you say very few...when archery get ZERO! Archery hunters would love to get as many as either of the other two groups and there is not reason for them not to.....Do you not agree?

I still don't get what you're saying. Archery hunters already get to hunt bulls during the rut (or pre-rut, whatever you want to call it) during the general archery season, so there's no need for a special permit. If you're on the eastside you do need a special permit to take a bull bigger than a spike, but in that case there are hundred of special permits offered to archery hunters. So I'm not sure where you get that there are "ZERO."

Typically, the rut doesn't get started until the final week of September.  Sometimes it heats up around the 20th of Sept.  Either way, it's outside the window of the general archery season.  So general archery hunters are not hunting the rut.  Eastside general archery is spike only or spike & anterless.  To harvest a bull, you need to draw a special permit.

The general modern firearm season typically runs the last weekend in October through the first weekend in November.  This season is also outside of the rut.  Eastside general modern firearm is spike only.  To harvest a bull, you need to draw a special permit.

When you compare these facts, and compare the special permits, the question I was asking is why is the modern firearm special permit a "Bull Elk" permit ($7.10) yet the archery special permit is a "Quality Elk" permit ($13.70)?  What is the difference in opportunities that drives the archery to "Quality" status ... whatever "Quality" hunt means?

Bobcat - you appear to be using the terms "rut" and "pre-rut" interchangeably when you say,  "Archery hunters already get to hunt bulls during the rut (or pre-rut, whatever you want to call it)...".  Rut and pre-rut are really different activities for elk.  During the pre-rut, the bulls are starting to assemble their ladies.  They are sometimes more responsive to cow calls in this phase than they would be after the rut.  During the rut is when they are trying to keep their ladies to themselves and are more responsive to bugle calls, as they want to fend off or deter any other bulls who would want to steal their women.   Since they are somewhat more responsive to cow calls during the pre-rut, it might make them easier to call in and harvest, but not to the point where it's a slam dunk and thus a "Quality Bull" hunt.  Some bulls will respond to cow calls during the modern rifle season too but again, not to the point of this tag being a "Quality Bull" hunt (which the WDFW has correctly categorized it).  The rut is when they are easier to call in, but the archery season is over by then.  An archery bull tag (or an weapon bull tag) during this phase would be a "Quality Bull" hunt; just like the single MF tag permit.

I'm not questioning, or griping about the modern firearm permit that runs Sept 24-28, nor am I questioning the number of permits (1).  All I'm trying to figure out is why are two special permits that have the same opportunity are considered different.

IMO, the distinction between a "Quality" vs a "Bull" special hunt should be the level of opportunity of one over the other to harvest something other than what is available via an over the counter tag.  This opportunity would be either a bull hunt during the rut, or a bull hunt when the general public (i.e. OTC general season) is not also stomping around the woods.  This later situation is what the Peaches Ridge or Observatory archery permit was a couple of years ago (I forget which permit it was).  If you drew this tag, you were hunting during a time when ONLY other tag holders were hunting.  They have since moved these tags to coincide with the general hunting season .... yet kept them as "Quality Bull" hunts!   

[Fullabull]

From looking at the regs I have to assume that the "bull" tags are just an opportunity to take a branched bull while others are hunting spikes (not rut hunts). There are only a couple of "bull" hunts that fall during the rut, Margaret being one of them (new to the bull hunt category). They might be thinking that this is just not a quality hunt anymore as they do not really take many large bulls out of there. Also, many of these "bull" hunts have days to hunt outside of the general season making for less pressure for a few days.

The "Quality" tags either fall during prime rutting time (MF and ML hunts) or are in areas that have larger numbers of Quality animals due to spike only during general season (these are the archery Quality tags).

[billdo5]

Well said

[iRem]

I've always felt that I had a Quality elk hunt every year during the early season!  What I mean is, I have all the big Bulls to choose from before the modern guys and ML guys get into the area and start hunting. Yes I have first pick.....lol

[MtnMuley]

I wouldn't call many off the archery ones quality but its really the only options we get.

How wouldn't they be quality?  Where else would you want them date wise?  19 days is longer than any other weapon gets.  Archers get first crack at the bulls during the rut.  I know of far more quality bulls killed during these seasons than the rest.

[billdo5]

It's the pre rut not rut... Pre means before...  Late September beginning of October is the best... I would rather have 6 days in the beginning of October rather than 12 days of pre rut

[billdo5]

And now I know u have no idea what u are talking about since elk is September 4-16 which is not 19 days

[bobcat]

And now I know u have no idea what u are talking about since elk is September 4-16 which is not 19 days

He must be referring to the archery permits for units 149 through 181. The season is September 1-19.

[steen]

Very seldom does the modern firearm person get to hunt the rut during general season.  One is blacktail general and the rest are permit draws.  I have yet to hunt an elk during the rut.  Even those are few and have just started in the new permit system.  It is a treat to hunt blacktail in the rut during the general season and we savor it.  To me drawing any one of those is special, even a cow/doe permit.  It is meat in the freezer and a trophy to me ( I have never got to hunt a doe, only with my kids-what a blast!).  I am forgoing a doe permit for a second deer this year cause to me going to the island to hunt a doe is to time consuming and not cost effective but if I can hunt a doe (whitetail) as a second deer during the same season in the same unit I am hunting (mule deer) I am all for it.

[Bullkllr]

So, when I see bulls physically mounting cows during early archery, that's what- practice for when the real rut starts which is appearently the day after archery closes?

[billdo5]

Haha I've seen two bucks humping... What does that mean? They r gay...? No means the rut is close... Just because a cow gets mounted doesn't mean it is rut.

[Fullabull]