Riddle me this. question about group permits

[funkster]

 So here is the scenario, two hunting buddies and myself put in as a  group for elk this year. One has 11 points and the other 2 have 6, that is a total of 23. Divided by 3 equals 7.6 points. Does the department round up to 8 points or down to 7 points? After 15-20 mins on the phone with the WDFW they couldn't answer the question. They took down our phone number and said" we will have to call you back on this one". I then asked "can we look up how many points we went in as a group either 7 or 8 points to know how many times our number will go into the kitty". Again, we got "The lady that does the drawing will call you back and can answer that question too". The lady that we spoke to was very nice and tried to get our questioned answered.

This is not a huge problem, but it means the difference of going in the "kitty" 64 times or 49 times. We would just like to know that we are getting the right amount of points and have that confirmed.

Has anyone on here had this same problem? If so,what became of it?

[Woodchuck]

I don't have a clue what the right answer is but that is a good question and I am curious as to the answer. I will bet a dollar to a doughnut that it will get rounded down though. 

[funkster]

That is my thought as well. I will post what they come up with, I just was wondering if anyone had the same issue.

[3nails]

 If I remember correctly you will all have the lowest number in the group. So as a group, 6 pts.

[funkster]

Didn't even think of actually adding the squared numbers up. Good thinking, that is why I wanted different views.

[Kowsrule30]

You guys really screwed the one with 11 points!!!!     

[NWBREW]

  The average will be rounded down then squared.

[funkster]

You guys really screwed the one with 11 points!!!!     

Ha ha...that only applies if he doesn't get an elk!

[funkster]

On group applications, the points of all of the applicants are averaged and the average is used in the drawing for that application. If the first group member has two points and the second one has six, then four points are used for the drawing. If the first member has one point, the second member has two, and a third member has four, then three points are used in the drawing for that application. The averaged points are rounded up.

From WDFW

Can you link me to where you got this info?

[funkster]

You the man, I owe you a

Now we can bring this to the WDFW attention.

[Bob33]

Non-integer averages round up. Consider that if you applied as individuals you would have 193 names in the hat. As a group application you will have 64 names in the hat.

Remember that if a group application is drawn, and there are not enough permits to satisfy the entire group, then the group application is rejected.

Good luck.

[link]

You won't get 64 names in the hat for the actual drawing. You first get 64 random numbers given to you. Then you go into the draw with the lowest of those 64 numbers. So, when they do the draw you only have one "number" in the hat. Its just that you have a better chance at getting a lower number the more points you have. Someone could go into the draw with 2 points, square that and he has 4 random numbers given to him. Say the lowest is 1001. You guys would have 8 points, square that and you have 64 random numbers given to you. Your lowest is 1005. Guess what, he gets drawn before you.
Kind of makes a guys points a little over rated if you ask me. Pretty sure I'm right here. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Bob33]

The effect is the same as having 64 names in the hat.

From WDFW: "Washington's system places a multiplier on the points. The number of points is squared and it is this number of random numbers that are issued to the application (or number of cards in the barrel). If a person applies for an elk permit for the first time, they have one card in the barrel. If a person has built up two points, they have four cards in the barrel. If a person has three points built up, nine cards are in the barrel and so on.

Placing a multiplier on the points more noticeably increases the chances of being selected over someone who is a new applicant or was recently awarded a permit."

[funkster]

Good info. We don't care so much about the actual number of times we go in the barrel ,more so, how they handle the average if not a whole number.

We always hunt together anyways and figured it would be that much more fun if we all could actually pull the trigger.

Still no call back from the WDFW, I guess it wasn't a high priority question

[Bob33]

Blow on the dice and roll 'em!

Good luck to all.

[elksnout]

Me and my son each have 14 points for elk and apply as a two man group. What does that mean really? Would we or any group with equal amount of points be better off applying separately?

[Magnum_Willys]

As a group applicant the number of tags available determines the "penalty" a group has on its odds - For example an area with 5 tags - and a group of five applies - they have to win on the first draw or their aren't enough tags left for their group.  They have 1/5 the chance of drawing as a group as an individual.   If there are 50 tags in the area then they have 45 chances as a group before they run out of a block of 5 tags compared to 50 as an individual - not as much of a penalty.   For groups of just two or areas with a large number of tags its not that big of deal.

[Bob33]

Me and my son each have 14 points for elk and apply as a two man group. What does that mean really? Would we or any group with equal amount of points be better off applying separately?

With a group application you will have 14 x 14 names in the hat. With separate applications you will each have 14 x 14 names in the hat.  Your odds of at least one of you drawing would be approximately double, not considering the possibility of there not being enough tags to satisfy a group.

[elksnout]

Thank you. 

[Elkaholic daWg]

Me and my son each have 14 points for elk and apply as a two man group. What does that mean really? Would we or any group with equal amount of points be better off applying separately?

With a group application you will have 14 x 14 names in the hat. With separate applications you will each have 14 x 14 names in the hat.  Your odds of at least one of you drawing would be approximately double, not considering the possibility of there not being enough tags to satisfy a group.

 wouldn't the group be 14+14 making it 28x28?

[Bob33]

Me and my son each have 14 points for elk and apply as a two man group. What does that mean really? Would we or any group with equal amount of points be better off applying separately?

With a group application you will have 14 x 14 names in the hat. With separate applications you will each have 14 x 14 names in the hat.  Your odds of at least one of you drawing would be approximately double, not considering the possibility of there not being enough tags to satisfy a group.

 wouldn't the group be 14+14 making it 28x28?

No.  A group application's points are computed by averaging all the group's members.  If you have two members of a group with 14 points each, the average of 14 and 14 is 14 [ (14+14) / 2 ].  Therefore the group has 14 points.  As with any other application, the points are squared to determine the number of chances to be drawn.

[iRem]

?? None of the guys that I hunt with we're able to put in and tell me until today!!!! So I'm the only one in with 5 points for archery quality and Antlerless! Question, will that affect my draw or will this just turn out to be a single when all said and done??

[Bob33]

You should have a group of 1 with 5 points.

[funkster]

Come on, someone has to come up with a permit question that can stump Bod33

[Biggerhammer]

Come on, someone has to come up with a permit question that can stump Bod33

He is defiantly on his regs A game.

[buckhorn2]

If I have a question I mail Bob33 and he gets me straightened out I bet you can;t come up with something to stump him.

[Bob33]

OK - what is Bob going to draw for special permits?  That's one got me stumped.

[Rainier10]

This should be easy to figure out I just need to know if Bob is on the train leaving Chicago or the plane leaving Santa Fe and how fast each train is going.  I am pretty sure that is how the game department figures out who is going to get drawn.  If the train or plane is headed to Montana fast you have the best odds of getting drawn.

[Bob33]

Here is a never before released image of an actual drawing taking place:

[brokenvet]

Here is what WDFW says about group permits.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/categories/Hunting/Special+Hunt+Permits/?page=2

question #27

If I am part of a group application, are my chances of getting a permit greater than if I apply by myself?
Those who apply as an Individual actually have the advantage over those who apply with a Group. In fact, the larger the group, the more your chances of being selected for a permit are reduced.