one man's draw rant;Your story?

[buckreaper]

I think a person should only be able to apply for one permit per species per year.  How many permits are wasted because somebody drew two permits?  I'm guilty of doing it the last couple years only because I drew a quality deer permit two years ago so my chances of drawing it again are extremely small.  Possible, but not likely.  But, that would be a rule I could easily live with.  Accrue points in the other categories by ghosting.  I drew the 204 buck permit this year but I had 14 points.   

I also agree with the point that when they split into this category system and your points were put into each that I started putting in for permits that I never would have before.  I have hunted whitetails for years in the NE but saw this as a chance to hunt some different country.  I know what it feels like to have a "stranger" hunting an area you know very well but can't draw the permit to hunt there yourself.  We hunted a unit for over 20 years and did very well.  Then the game department decided to turn it into a permit area about ten years ago and none of us have drawn it since.

[bobcat]

One easy way to improve the odds.  Would be to cut the amount of choices we get in half.  For quality go to one choice and for buck/bull go to two choices.  WDFW still get the same amount of money but the draw odds will get a better.

Doing that would improve odds for some permits, but make it worse for others. Overall, I believe it wouldn't help odds at all. Same number of people applying, same number of permits available = same odds. Right?

You want to really improve odds- make it so a person can only apply in one category per species. So for elk, if you want to apply for a quality permit, you can't also apply for a "regular" bull permit or an antlerless permit. Odds for the non-quality permits would go way up. Quality permits would probably stay about the same.

The other good way of improving odds is to make it more expensive. Well, they did that already. So there's not much left that can be done. Limiting the number of permits a person can apply for will decrease revenue to the state, so that will never happen. (expect maybe when/if the economy ever gets better)

Completely wrong, cutting the choices in half does make the odds better.  Think if you have 4 choices for 100 people that is potentially 400 different tags.  If they have 2 choices now that is only 200 potential tag differences.  It would make a huge difference, almost like the way it was before with 1 choice, either bull or cow etc....

That's your opinion, I will stick with mine. Unless you have some sort of college degree in statistics and can prove it to me. Say there are 5,000 people that apply in the quality deer permit category. And say there are a total of 100 permits, just for easy math. Not taking points into account, odds are 1 in 50, meaning 1 person out of every 50 who apply will draw a permit. How will that change by giving each person more or less choices on their application? The way I see it, overall odds in the quality deer permit category, are going to be 1 in 50, whether each person can choose 1 hunt, 2 hunts, or 10 hunts on their application.

[bigelk1030]

I am with you on the draw, I have the full 17 points for all the elk categories.  This is good and bad, admittedly I am ghosting the cow tags now because I would hate to burn one if I was drawn for a bull tag.  For bulls, I have put in every year for modern rifle Margaret and Green River and never a draw.  My plan is to continue the same.  Sad to think that that I haven't been drawn for 17 years.............

If I were you I would ghost your bull tags until after you draw your cow tag then you could continue to accrue points for another cow. 

Thanks Steen, next year I will think about that strategy of grabbing a cow tag first, especially if it would help me scout out an area for a bull hunt later (such as Margaret).

The good news is my son who is 12 has a couple points now, so a group cow hunt for both of us is a good possibility (my 17 + his 2 =19/2 = 9.5 points) assuming the round down to 9 we should have a good chance for a partner cow hunt.

[Wacenturion]

WDFW created the problem to begin with.  With all the choices, it opens Pandora's box.  Should have been ONE choice and ONE choice only for areas.  That way the odds were in our favor.  For the most part with the exception of hard to draw hunts, we got our favorite area(s) every couple years.  Now with all the choices and pile on that, all the doe/cow hunters retaining their antlerless points while putting in for buck, bull or quality, the odds are in the next galaxy.

That's exactly why you number went from 1000 applying for your hunt to 2500.  Just remember....more choices equal more revenue, but it also reduces everyone's opportunity to hunt their favorite draw.  With the way things are now if you do get drawn, you'll be waiting forever to draw again.  Add to that the increased cost to just buy a chance.....wildlife management at it's worst.

[huntnnw]

No story here, but why don't you just hunt the NE corner during the rut?  10 years of hunting/scouting in the NE corner and you would've had some good bucks by now.

 

[huntnnw]

I think a person should only be able to apply for one permit per species per year.  How many permits are wasted because somebody drew two permits?  I'm guilty of doing it the last couple years only because I drew a quality deer permit two years ago so my chances of drawing it again are extremely small.  Possible, but not likely.  But, that would be a rule I could easily live with.  Accrue points in the other categories by ghosting.  I drew the 204 buck permit this year but I had 14 points.   

I also agree with the point that when they split into this category system and your points were put into each that I started putting in for permits that I never would have before.  I have hunted whitetails for years in the NE but saw this as a chance to hunt some different country.  I know what it feels like to have a "stranger" hunting an area you know very well but can't draw the permit to hunt there yourself.  We hunted a unit for over 20 years and did very well.  Then the game department decided to turn it into a permit area about ten years ago and none of us have drawn it since.

  in this state?? this state is all about the mighty dollar not the game or the hunter

[huntnnw]

WDFW created the problem to begin with.  With all the choices, it opens Pandora's box.  Should have been ONE choice and ONE choice only for areas.  That way the odds were in our favor.  For the most part with the exception of hard to draw hunts, we got our favorite area(s) every couple years.  Now with all the choices and pile on that, all the doe/cow hunters retaining their antlerless points while putting in for buck, bull or quality, the odds are in the next galaxy.

That's exactly why you number went from 1000 applying for your hunt to 2500.  Just remember....more choices equal more revenue, but it also reduces everyone's opportunity to hunt their favorite draw.  With the way things are now if you do get drawn, you'll be waiting forever to draw again.  Add to that the increased cost to just buy a chance.....wildlife management at it's worst.

As point systems work in the west NV may have a better system but followed by WA.. try the other states its a joke. In UT some are 20+ points now..what if u were born today and become a hunter? your screwed!! I see a major overhaul in point systems in some states and resulting in many angry hunters

[Wacenturion]

WDFW created the problem to begin with.  With all the choices, it opens Pandora's box.  Should have been ONE choice and ONE choice only for areas.  That way the odds were in our favor.  For the most part with the exception of hard to draw hunts, we got our favorite area(s) every couple years.  Now with all the choices and pile on that, all the doe/cow hunters retaining their antlerless points while putting in for buck, bull or quality, the odds are in the next galaxy.

That's exactly why you number went from 1000 applying for your hunt to 2500.  Just remember....more choices equal more revenue, but it also reduces everyone's opportunity to hunt their favorite draw.  With the way things are now if you do get drawn, you'll be waiting forever to draw again.  Add to that the increased cost to just buy a chance.....wildlife management at it's worst.

As point systems work in the west NV may have a better system but followed by WA.. try the other states its a joke. In UT some are 20+ points now..what if u were born today and become a hunter? your screwed!! I see a major overhaul in point systems in some states and resulting in many angry hunters

It's not necessarily the points, but rather the choices for the most part.  Here's the example I'll use.  My favorite hunt to apply for is Blue Mtn. Foothills A( but I think it's called west now).  Twenty plus years ago years myself and other applicants used to be able to draw every 3-4 years like clockwork.  Total applicants was 500-600 every year for 100 permits.

Then WDFW got cute and allowed for four choices.  Applicant numbers rose from approximately 600 to 2000 plus or minus.  Frequency of me drawing my favorite permit went down.  Then to make even more money, WDFW decided that they'll allow hunters to put in under new revisions whereby they can apply for all...quality, buck and antlerless.  If say a doe hunter gets drawn for quality or buck, they don't loose their antlerless points and conversely buck or quality type applicants don't lose their points if they draw antlerless.

Problem is myself and I would venture to say most other quality and buck applicants do not have any interest in putting in for antlerless you idiots (wdfw).  However, antlerless applicants would surely put in for quality or buck under this scenario.  Now my chances of drawing my favorite permit is almost non existent as applicant numbers has risen again to around 2400.  This is especially true if I draw again.

One side note.....during that favorite hunt of mine (that in the rut whitetail hunt), the morons at WDFD in their infinite wildlife management wisdom, have also allowed for 100 doe permits at the same time.  For crying out loud, if you want to reduce herd numbers, do it during the general, not during quality rut time.  That is so moronic it's ridiculous! 

Washington joined the rush to "be like Mike" with the screwy permit systems out west.  The hell with that crap.  One choice, one choice only.  Everyone put in for your personal favorite and all this nonsense goes away.  We don't have to be like the rest of the west.  This is all about money and nothing about management.  Of course that doesn't apply to moose, sheep, goat, or many of the hard to draw limited permit deer (Desert) or elk (Blues, etc.) draws.

[WildBear]

Will be impossible to please everyone. Understand gripes and agree with proposals. But as someone who has benifited with the creation of categories and split of points, I am happy with the opportunities I have been given.

[outfishu2]

Glad to see I am not the only one that searches the internet every day to see If I was drawn.  The state changed the margeret unit to Bull elk vs. qaulity bull.  I assume they looked at ways of generating more income by getting us all to apply for as many permits as possible.  I selected a different area with only 5 points and actually got drawn for quality Elk.  I agree with the thought that we should get one choice only, and all the points should be reset once drawn.

[cmiller85]

One easy way to improve the odds.  Would be to cut the amount of choices we get in half.  For quality go to one choice and for buck/bull go to two choices.  WDFW still get the same amount of money but the draw odds will get a better.

Doing that would improve odds for some permits, but make it worse for others. Overall, I believe it wouldn't help odds at all. Same number of people applying, same number of permits available = same odds. Right?

You want to really improve odds- make it so a person can only apply in one category per species. So for elk, if you want to apply for a quality permit, you can't also apply for a "regular" bull permit or an antlerless permit. Odds for the non-quality permits would go way up. Quality permits would probably stay about the same.

The other good way of improving odds is to make it more expensive. Well, they did that already. So there's not much left that can be done. Limiting the number of permits a person can apply for will decrease revenue to the state, so that will never happen. (expect maybe when/if the economy ever gets better)

Completely wrong, cutting the choices in half does make the odds better.  Think if you have 4 choices for 100 people that is potentially 400 different tags.  If they have 2 choices now that is only 200 potential tag differences.  It would make a huge difference, almost like the way it was before with 1 choice, either bull or cow etc....

That's your opinion, I will stick with mine. Unless you have some sort of college degree in statistics and can prove it to me. Say there are 5,000 people that apply in the quality deer permit category. And say there are a total of 100 permits, just for easy math. Not taking points into account, odds are 1 in 50, meaning 1 person out of every 50 who apply will draw a permit. How will that change by giving each person more or less choices on their application? The way I see it, overall odds in the quality deer permit category, are going to be 1 in 50, whether each person can choose 1 hunt, 2 hunts, or 10 hunts on their application.

I see what you are saying bobcat. You're right, only 100 people in your example will get a tag. But to better reflect our draw system we need to take it a step further because we have multiple Quality Deer hunts and not just one.

For instance, using your example, say there are two hunts, A and B, that the 5,000 people apply for and they each get two choices. Now, 4,000 people apply for Hunt A (highly coveted) and 1,000 people apply for hunt B. Each applicant applies for the opposite tag on thier 2nd choice. What we would have is something like this:

                           Hunt A         Hunt B
1st choice:          4,000           1,000
2nd choice:         1,000           4,000

Based on this simple example, it is easy to see how the odds for each hunt would improve by eliminating the 2nd choice we get when applying for special permits. Assuming people know what they are doing and don't change their 1st choice hunt from year to year, I don't see how eliminating the 2nd choice would increase the odds for any hunts. I could be wrong tho. 

You're absolutely right though in that the only really good way to increase drawing odds is to limit people to one category per species. You could increase odds even more drastically than this by limiting people to choosing one SPECIES. Let them buy ghost points for everything else. We wouldn't even need to eliminate all the categories.

[Wacenturion]

Bobcat.....you said........

"That's your opinion, I will stick with mine. Unless you have some sort of college degree in statistics and can prove it to me. Say there are 5,000 people that apply in the quality deer permit category. And say there are a total of 100 permits, just for easy math. Not taking points into account, odds are 1 in 50, meaning 1 person out of every 50 who apply will draw a permit. How will that change by giving each person more or less choices on their application? The way I see it, overall odds in the quality deer permit category, are going to be 1 in 50, whether each person can choose 1 hunt, 2 hunts, or 10 hunts on their application."

You are assuming backwards.  Look at it this way....5000 total applicants for say 10 permit areas with 100 permits each.  One choice only and for sake of example you get a somewhat equal split statewide of say 500 applications per permit unit plus or minus competing for 100 permits in each unit.

Add additional choices up to four and you get approximately 5000 applicants X 4 choices or 20,000 total applications.  Therefore 20,000 applications spread across four 10 permit units statewide equal 2000 per permit unit, and not the average of 500 when only one choice.

Thus you chances of drawing one of the 100 permits in your first choice (and the others for that matter) go from 500 applications for 100 permits up now to 2000 applications for the same 100.

Then add additional applications via doe/cow hunters retaining their antlerless points while competing with buck/bull/quality applicants and the total number of applications go even higher, if you are strictly a buck/bull/quality only applicant.  If you draw, you'll wait a looooooong time before you draw your area again....fact.  It's the odds and they are not your friend.  They are against you.

Sucks huh?  More opportunity...I think not.