Post by: CoryTDF on July 03, 2013, 12:33:55 PM
I'm looking at the Slick Tricks or the Toxic's??? Any others??
Post by: bucklucky on July 03, 2013, 01:08:01 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on July 03, 2013, 01:11:47 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on July 03, 2013, 01:28:42 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on July 03, 2013, 01:50:51 PM
Post by: RadSav on July 03, 2013, 01:52:28 PM
What do you think is the BEST broadhead for elk???
I'm looking at the Slick Tricks or the Toxic's??? Any others??
Anything but Toxic...please!
Best blades on the market right now = Wac'em, WASP, Slick Trick and G5 Stryker. Any of those will treat you well.
Post by: TheHunt on July 03, 2013, 01:54:36 PM
Post by: birdstew on July 03, 2013, 01:56:20 PM
Best Broadhead is a Montec :chuckle::tup:
Post by: Jellymon on July 03, 2013, 03:00:52 PM
Post by: atfulldraw on July 03, 2013, 04:57:04 PM
Post by: Sliverslinger on July 03, 2013, 05:02:03 PM
Post by: JPhelps on July 03, 2013, 05:02:27 PM
Std 100 or Viper Trick 100
Or the G5 striker, wacem, or trophy taker will do.
Post by: ribka on July 03, 2013, 06:41:12 PM
Post by: Mxracer532 on July 03, 2013, 06:41:50 PM
My list:
Savora's
Thunderheads
Muzzy's (weakest blades of them all)
Wac Ems Good head just expensive
Slick Trick St What I shoot now, Strong head easy to sharpen and excellent customer service.
Slick Trick Mags- Standards just fly better.
Next head I will shoot will be Magnus Stingers with bleeder blades. (no better customer service and its a good head).
Post by: bowhunterforever on July 03, 2013, 07:04:46 PM
Post by: owmygulay on July 03, 2013, 07:34:33 PM
Post by: ribka on July 03, 2013, 07:50:53 PM
I would look into the VPA 3-blades. They are machined out of a solid piece of tool steel and are probably stronger than any if the ones with replaceable blades. I have some of the 1 1/4" cut 125gn that I will be using.
The VPA's look like a well made head
Post by: jrebel on July 03, 2013, 09:14:02 PM
Post by: Jason on July 03, 2013, 09:16:16 PM
Wac'ems:yeah:
Post by: demontang on July 03, 2013, 09:37:26 PM
Post by: RadSav on July 03, 2013, 10:52:46 PM
Ive shot the muzzy mx3 and they seem to be a great head, the g5 striker are going to be my next buy. Ive been spinning heads and checking the weights. The g5 strikers where all the same 102 grs for about 12 heads and spin very nice. The muzzy all hit 100gr and the 125 hit 125grs, some spin great others not so well. Slick trick was 100-104grs over 6 heads, wasp boss 102grs, shuttle t where 102-108grs, and the thunder heads where 102grs over 8 heads. Most of the heads where spinning great on my beman pro hunters and the kinectic too.
A little plumbers thread tape and they all should spin fine. Except maybe a Shuttle-T here or there. Even then nothing to worry about if you have adequate fletching.
Post by: Button Nubbs on July 03, 2013, 11:55:56 PM
Post by: CoryTDF on July 04, 2013, 06:55:59 AM
What do you think is the BEST broadhead for elk???
I'm looking at the Slick Tricks or the Toxic's??? Any others??
Anything but Toxic...please!
Best blades on the market right now = Wac'em, WASP, Slick Trick and G5 Striker. Any of those will treat you well.
Why not Toxics????
Post by: PolarBear on July 04, 2013, 07:03:30 AM
Post by: buglebuster on July 04, 2013, 07:43:10 AM
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on July 04, 2013, 11:56:39 AM
Post by: 6haase6 on July 04, 2013, 12:16:12 PM
Post by: PolarBear on July 04, 2013, 12:27:45 PM
Post by: CoryTDF on July 04, 2013, 12:30:40 PM
I've wanted to try slick tricks but the montec cs work so well I haven't switched. Why the montec hate?
I have killed 7 deer, 2 elk, 1 bear, and tons of foam with Montecs. I bout a pack of the CS in 2009 as that was all the shop had. Since they are the same as the regular 100 grain heads i just put them on and went hunting. I shot them three times.Once killing a bear, once killing a 4x6 whitetail, and once killing a cow elk.
On the down side I have also watched text book shots done with montecs result in a lost animal. Not to toot my own horn but I'm a fair hand at tracking animals and even after I saw the shot, rewatched it on film 10 times, and gave it plenty of time to die we still lost the buck. 3 of the deer I shot were also text book shots, right through the 4th rib, and if not for my " never stop looking" attitude and what I consider to be a better than average eye for blood and sign those animals would not have been recovered.
I know Montecs are ok and as I just said I have killed allot with them. But if there is a better broadhead out there I want to use it. Under the advice of a professional hunter friend, who has killed more with a bow than me and 10 of my hunting partners combined, I thought I might make the switch to Slick Tricks. But in my search found the Toxics and they look freaking cool. They are new but they look legit.
Point is the Slick Trick Magnum is cheaper than a Montec and the blades can be replaced. Even though you can sharpen Montec they never really get SHARP.
Post by: RadSav on July 04, 2013, 01:24:53 PM
Why not Toxics????What do you think is the BEST broadhead for elk???
I'm looking at the Slick Tricks or the Toxic's??? Any others??
Anything but Toxic...please!
Best blades on the market right now = Wac'em, WASP, Slick Trick and G5 Striker. Any of those will treat you well.
I am not going down that road again here, but you can do a search for "Toxic Broadhead" threads on this site and see my previous thoughts.
I will put it this way though. Bowhunting and archery has been my chosen career path and my passion for nearly 35 years. It pays the bills and continues to reflect my identity. But if for some reason I was forced to shoot a Toxic, Atom, Allen, Crimson Talon or a POD...I would give up bowhunting for big game altogether. Period!
Post by: JJD on July 04, 2013, 04:50:38 PM
Ive shot the muzzy mx3 and they seem to be a great head, the g5 striker are going to be my next buy. Ive been spinning heads and checking the weights. The g5 strikers where all the same 102 grs for about 12 heads and spin very nice. The muzzy all hit 100gr and the 125 hit 125grs, some spin great others not so well. Slick trick was 100-104grs over 6 heads, wasp boss 102grs, shuttle t where 102-108grs, and the thunder heads where 102grs over 8 heads. Most of the heads where spinning great on my beman pro hunters and the kinectic too.
A little plumbers thread tape and they all should spin fine. Except maybe a Shuttle-T here or there. Even then nothing to worry about if you have adequate fletching.
I'm guessin you are talkin teflon tape. What does it do? Applied to the broadhead threads?
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on July 04, 2013, 05:15:09 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on July 04, 2013, 05:33:18 PM
Slick trick griz trick. They are 1 1/4" cutting diameter.broke a blade and a rib of a bull I shot with those. :twocents:
Post by: CoryTDF on July 04, 2013, 05:41:51 PM
Slick trick griz trick. They are 1 1/4" cutting diameter.broke a blade and a rib of a bull I shot with those. :twocents:
Did you kill the bull? Is this your way of saying you are happy or unhappy with them?
Post by: Button Nubbs on July 04, 2013, 05:48:22 PM
I killed and recovered the bull shot it at 930 am jumped it twice during the day and let him lay over night. Found him in time without losing meat but it was getting close. I won't shoot them again.Slick trick griz trick. They are 1 1/4" cutting diameter.broke a blade and a rib of a bull I shot with those. :twocents:
Did you kill the bull? Is this your way of saying you are happy or unhappy with them?
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on July 04, 2013, 06:48:19 PM
Post by: CementFinisher on July 04, 2013, 07:15:09 PM
Post by: RadSav on July 04, 2013, 11:41:33 PM
Ive shot the muzzy mx3 and they seem to be a great head, the g5 striker are going to be my next buy. Ive been spinning heads and checking the weights. The g5 strikers where all the same 102 grs for about 12 heads and spin very nice. The muzzy all hit 100gr and the 125 hit 125grs, some spin great others not so well. Slick trick was 100-104grs over 6 heads, wasp boss 102grs, shuttle t where 102-108grs, and the thunder heads where 102grs over 8 heads. Most of the heads where spinning great on my beman pro hunters and the kinectic too.
A little plumbers thread tape and they all should spin fine. Except maybe a Shuttle-T here or there. Even then nothing to worry about if you have adequate fletching.
I'm guessin you are talkin teflon tape. What does it do? Applied to the broadhead threads?
Most all broadhead ferrules are turned on a swiss screw machine. So it is nearly impossible to make one crooked. Same thing on inserts. But one broadhead might be on the shy side of AMO standard male thread dimensions and one insert might be heavy on the female thread dimensions. Sometimes this leads to alignment that is not quite perfect for alignment Nazis'. Generally a few wraps on the threads and first 3/16" of the parallel section will take up any sloppiness between the male and female pieces making them spin true. This also keeps broadheads and field points from working loose while shooting or rattling around.
Works really good for keeping your sight screws and stabilizer from working loose too!
Warning: A little tape goes a long way. Usually only takes two or three wraps. If you get too much tape sometimes it can get very difficult to get your points out of the inserts.
Post by: CoryTDF on July 05, 2013, 06:34:09 AM
Post by: h2ofowlr on July 05, 2013, 06:51:27 AM
Ive shot the muzzy mx3 and they seem to be a great head, the g5 striker are going to be my next buy. Ive been spinning heads and checking the weights. The g5 strikers where all the same 102 grs for about 12 heads and spin very nice. The muzzy all hit 100gr and the 125 hit 125grs, some spin great others not so well. Slick trick was 100-104grs over 6 heads, wasp boss 102grs, shuttle t where 102-108grs, and the thunder heads where 102grs over 8 heads. Most of the heads where spinning great on my beman pro hunters and the kinectic too.
A little plumbers thread tape and they all should spin fine. Except maybe a Shuttle-T here or there. Even then nothing to worry about if you have adequate fletching.
I used to use the bow string wax that comes in the tube. I would rub the threads across it and screw them in. Worked very good as well.
I'm guessin you are talkin teflon tape. What does it do? Applied to the broadhead threads?
Most all broadhead ferrules are turned on a swiss screw machine. So it is nearly impossible to make one crooked. Same thing on inserts. But one broadhead might be on the shy side of AMO standard male thread dimensions and one insert might be heavy on the female thread dimensions. Sometimes this leads to alignment that is not quite perfect for alignment Nazis'. Generally a few wraps on the threads and first 3/16" of the parallel section will take up any sloppiness between the male and female pieces making them spin true. This also keeps broadheads and field points from working loose while shooting or rattling around.
Works really good for keeping your sight screws and stabilizer from working loose too!
Warning: A little tape goes a long way. Usually only takes two or three wraps. If you get too much tape sometimes it can get very difficult to get your points out of the inserts.
Post by: GorgeCustomCoatings on July 05, 2013, 12:43:17 PM
Post by: Dr. Death on July 05, 2013, 02:34:59 PM
Post by: RadSav on July 05, 2013, 04:29:25 PM
I personally shoot Montec's, but I have a buddy who believe it or not shoots various broadheads thru road signs (ones that have been pulled down for wear/tear) and sees which one looks the best after hitting a metal sign. His answer hands down is Shuttle T's. :dunno: Kinda a crazy testing scenario but he swears by the results.
So next time an animal is hiding behind a road sign your good to go :dunno:
Crazy what some guys believe is the most important aspect of broadhead performance.
Terminal performance of a broadhead is directly related to the interaction of oxygen and sharpness from beginning to end of penetration. It would be easy to design heads that are superior in every way for durability and penetration of road signs, cinter blocks, steel drums, 3/4" marine grade plywood, bullet proof glass and bovine skapulas, but they would fail in every way to improve upon terminal performance of a properly head treated, strip ground carbon or AEBL stainless razorblade.
Conjecture and supposition should never be the foundation of a broadheads design. Known facts through the studies of metallurgical, clinical and medical sciences should be the foundation. Once that foundation is set only then should the gimmicks of flash and zazzle be framed and finished above. It is an ethical obligation the designer must endure out of respect for all the animals consumers' will harvest with his/her product. The designers goal should be to reduce the distance traveled not only on perfect impacts, but less than perfect impacts as well. He/she should also design to minimize failures while assuring non-lethal impacts heal rapidly with little risk of long term suffering from infection and other related fatal hazards. Then the biggest challenge of all...putting it all together in a cost appropriate package the end consumer will feel is cool, wicked and sic.
Post by: superdown on July 05, 2013, 05:11:34 PM
I personally shoot Montec's, but I have a buddy who believe it or not shoots various broadheads thru road signs (ones that have been pulled down for wear/tear) and sees which one looks the best after hitting a metal sign. His answer hands down is Shuttle T's. :dunno: Kinda a crazy testing scenario but he swears by the results.
So next time an animal is hiding behind a road sign your good to go :dunno:
Crazy what some guys believe is the most important aspect of broadhead performance.
Terminal performance of a broadhead is directly related to the interaction of oxygen and sharpness from beginning to end of penetration. It would be easy to design heads that are superior in every way for durability and penetration of road signs, cinter blocks, steel drums, 3/4" marine grade plywood, bullet proof glass and bovine skapulas, but they would fail in every way to improve upon terminal performance of a properly head treated, strip ground carbon or AEBL stainless razorblade.
Conjecture and supposition should never be the foundation of a broadheads design. Known facts through the studies of metallurgical, clinical and medical sciences should be the foundation. Once that foundation is set only then should the gimmicks of flash and zazzle be framed and finished above. It is an ethical obligation the designer must endure out of respect for all the animals consumers' will harvest with his/her product. The designers goal should be to reduce the distance traveled not only on perfect impacts, but less than perfect impacts as well. He/she should also design to minimize failures while assuring non-lethal impacts heal rapidly with little risk of long term suffering from infection and other related fatal hazards. Then the biggest challenge of all...putting it all together in a cost appropriate package the end consumer will feel is cool, wicked and sic.
Post by: RadSav on July 05, 2013, 05:42:25 PM
This will be my first year bow hunting. What broad head would you recommend?
I spoke with our grinder and stamper last week and we are still 10-12 weeks out on our new production blades. And I can not make ferrules until first article blades hit my door here in Washington. So it doesn't look good for new Savora's this year. But, there are still some good heads being made out there. I would refer you to my first post on this thread. Those are fine blades attached to fine ferrules. You do not get a high carbon blade option, but each of those manufacturers are now using the better stainless in their blades. I would probably use the Stryker or WASP if I wasn't using my own heads.
Post by: stevemiller on July 05, 2013, 06:00:25 PM
I have shot alot of diff heads. Started shooting Savora's, Killed a buck double lung went less then 50 yards. I have killed a buck with every head I have ever shot and shot placement is far more important than what head ur shooting. (as long as its sharp).:yeah: :tup: Ive used them all as well and everything i hit died just the same as the next head that i shot.never saw any diff. in flight,or distance.
My list:
Savora's
Thunderheads
Muzzy's (weakest blades of them all)
Wac Ems Good head just expensive
Slick Trick St What I shoot now, Strong head easy to sharpen and excellent customer service.
Slick Trick Mags- Standards just fly better.
Next head I will shoot will be Magnus Stingers with bleeder blades. (no better customer service and its a good head).
Post by: superdown on July 05, 2013, 07:51:32 PM
This will be my first year bow hunting. What broad head would you recommend?
I spoke with our grinder and stamper last week and we are still 10-12 weeks out on our new production blades. And I can not make ferrules until first article blades hit my door here in Washington. So it doesn't look good for new Savora's this year. But, there are still some good heads being made out there. I would refer you to my first post on this thread. Those are fine blades attached to fine ferrules. You do not get a high carbon blade option, but each of those manufacturers are now using the better stainless in their blades. I would probably use the Stryker or WASP if I wasn't using my own heads.
Post by: RadSav on July 05, 2013, 10:46:23 PM
I have not ever had the wife shoot a blade style cutting tipped head. I want the best blood trails for her so she always shoots three blade heads. She shoots 24.5" draw with Beman ICS 500 arrows 25.5 or 26" depending on bow. Draw weight is usually between 48 & 52#. Speed generally between 214 & 217 fps. She has never lost an animal she has shot (wish I could say the same). And she has taken elk standing still at 4 yards, on the run at 45 yards and reached out on a bugling bull at 58 yards (plus many many more). One of her quickest kills was a small buck at 67 yards. I have never seen her arrow fail to fully penetrate a deer and I've never seen her arrows fail to take both lungs. Even if on occasion she does not get an exit wound we always have short blood trails if we even need to blood trail at all. She plain whacks and stacks the big critters!
Now if penetrations is not an issue for her at the distances she is capable of harvesting... I don't know where it would be a problem with adult men shooting heavier draw weights, longer draw lengths, heavier arrows and considerably faster speeds. The past few years I have been shooting more and more animals with 62# of draw weight and lighter arrows. And I'd bet I spend more time looking for my pass thru arrows than I do for the animals I've shot.
Cut on contact improving penetration is largely a wives tail anyway. So I wouldn't worry about that at all. Concentrate your efforts on finding good sharp blades that stay sharp and don't worry yourself too much about penetration. If you are going on safari in Africa perhaps we should discuss penetration further. But here in America...chose "SHARP" and be happy!
Post by: CoryTDF on July 06, 2013, 06:43:50 AM
And she has taken elk standing still at 4 yards, on the run at 45 yards
:yike: Really on the run???? Why would you take that shot??? Was it wounded already? I mean good for her for killing it but that's a pretty sketchy shot. It's obvious that you are very knowledgeable about bow hunting and are skilled as well but why admit to a running shot. That will get you fired on on most forums fast as heck! I shot a doe at 63 once and just that got me almost run out of a forum. I was just wondering the circumstance behind that shot. Sounds like your wife is more than just a little skilled with a bow and I'm more of a mindset of "Take the shots you are confident you can make" If you shoot a softball size group at 80 yards and feel comfortable with that shot and have enough power to kill. By all means take it. I wont, but that does not mean it cant be done.
Post by: jason stevens on July 06, 2013, 07:27:01 AM
Post by: RadSav on July 06, 2013, 07:48:48 AM
And she has taken elk standing still at 4 yards, on the run at 45 yards
:yike: Really on the run???? Why would you take that shot??? Was it wounded already? I mean good for her for killing it but that's a pretty sketchy shot. It's obvious that you are very knowledgeable about bow hunting and are skilled as well but why admit to a running shot. That will get you fired on on most forums fast as heck! I shot a doe at 63 once and just that got me almost run out of a forum. I was just wondering the circumstance behind that shot. Sounds like your wife is more than just a little skilled with a bow and I'm more of a mindset of "Take the shots you are confident you can make" If you shoot a softball size group at 80 yards and feel comfortable with that shot and have enough power to kill. By all means take it. I wont, but that does not mean it cant be done.
Each opportunity and situation is different. At the right angle and right situation a running shot can give better results than an animal standing still but alert. Back in the day of Fred Bear and Ben Pearson people celebrated the accomplishment of something out of the ordinary. Today with all the know it all but done nothing internet experts you can't fart the wrong smell, shoot the wrong distance or tie your shoe left handed without someone accusing you of being unethical or racist.
We watched that elk fall within seconds of being hit dead center through the heart. Sure she was trying to take out the aortic arch so she missed her spot by a few inches. But she is not going to apologies for it because some paranoid tree stand expert from Michigan says it can't be done without the assistance of David Copperfield. Usually these same people rejoice at the thought of going into the woods with a self bow, wood arrows and file sharpened broadheads even though history has taught us these things are rarely ever used effectively. Fred Bear developed the POD for a reason. We lost our rights to hunt Rhodesia Africa with a bow because of it. It was actually punishable by death for a while. Not until Duke Savora worked with the government during the Chipinda Pools studies was it re-instated. But we never hear of that by the internet fashion police because they don't care and don't know their history. They would rather throw names from the security of their home computers or iPhones while driving through a school zone.
There is a reason we do not use Facebook, Twitter or frequent any other forum site beyond Hunting-Washington. Too damn many self proclaimed experts with no real experience for me to worry about. Congratulations to you for tagging that beautiful doe at 63 yards. I say, "Job well done." I bet she tasted great!
Oh, and by the way...that elk was not injured. It was actually running away from some Dude who had just missed it three times at less than 40 yards with about $1,500.00 worth of Hoyt bow and gadgets. Not a single scratch on it until the squaw took out the pump house. When we talked to the other bowhunter later he mentioned he had missed two other elk in that herd as well. One at 35 yards and one about 50. All standing broadside. I bet the IBEF brigade would think of him as a model citizen ;)
Post by: CoryTDF on July 06, 2013, 08:20:09 AM
And yes my Doe was wonderfull! Shot a cow elk at 53 yards the year before that and she died same as if it was 2 yards. Shoot what you have the ablity to shot thats my motto.
Post by: D-Rock425 on July 06, 2013, 08:41:14 AM
Hoyts are good bows but man do they attract some idiots. At the 3D shoots there are some groups of Hoyt shooters you know the type, Hoyt shirt, Hoyt hat, Hoyt tattoo, Hoyt underwear, Hoyt glasses, Hoyt rings, Drinking out of Hoyt water bottles, Eating Hoyt crackers, Sitting in Hoyt chairs, Talking about Hoyt bows. :chuckle: We always laugh at those guys. Hoyt............lol. Good bows weird crowd.hey you just described me.
And yes my Doe was wonderfull! Shot a cow elk at 53 yards the year before that and she died same as if it was 2 yards. Shoot what you have the ablity to shot thats my motto.
Post by: RadSav on July 06, 2013, 08:43:46 AM
Hoyts are good bows but man do they attract some idiots.
For sure. But I'd bet not as many as Mathews :dunno:
A lot of folks ask me whether they should buy a Hoyt bow of a certain model. If I advise against it they still go out and buy one. Then there are the folks that ask me whether they should buy a Mathews of a certain model. If I advise against it they tell me, "Too late, I already bought one!" Sort of a running joke around our place. The wife believes I should ask Hoyt and Mathews for commission for advising shooters against a particular model of their bows since nearly 100% of the time it means they go out and buy one just to spite me :tung:
...I don't think D-Rock ever asked for my advise :chuckle:
Post by: CoryTDF on July 06, 2013, 10:43:52 AM
Post by: RadSav on July 06, 2013, 10:57:53 AM
I shoot a struthers SR-71 and I like it. It's a little heavy but I like it. I bought it before Kevin sold the company. I had a friend here in Walla Walla who worked for him and was an assembler and dealer. I'll move to a lighter bow in a few years but wit ha 27'' draw @65 pounds I get 300fps with a 390 grain arrow. It works for me.
I've always liked the Strothers bows, but man did they ever get eaten up by bad reviews during this last ATA show. I never made it over to their shooting booth this year to see for myself. Not sure exactly what was going wrong but the show was a buzz about how dreadful it was over there. His old company Elite on the other hand was taking some serious business away from Hoyt and Mathews. Dealer were loving the 2013 Elite lineup.
Post by: CoryTDF on July 06, 2013, 11:04:54 AM
Post by: demontang on July 07, 2013, 09:59:40 PM
Post by: Mxracer532 on July 09, 2013, 11:20:36 AM
I shoot a struthers SR-71 and I like it. It's a little heavy but I like it. I bought it before Kevin sold the company. I had a friend here in Walla Walla who worked for him and was an assembler and dealer. I'll move to a lighter bow in a few years but wit ha 27'' draw @65 pounds I get 300fps with a 390 grain arrow. It works for me.
We Kevin STROTHER shooters are few and far between not that he stopped producing some of the best bows $ could buy. I myself have shot Kevins bows for many years. Met him and Kate in the Toucannon and shot his prototype and knew I had to have one. It was right handed and I shot it left handed but still had to have one. Kevin is a super nice guy. Had a Synergy, GT500 and still have my SR-71 and its not going anywhere. Still there isnt the same bow that I have seen that spec for spec shoots with my SR-71 and is anywhere close to as dead in the hand and as silent.
29in draw 65lbs fully loaded IBO's at 342.6
I since have changed strings and as it sits IB0's at 338.6
If I remember right with a 388gn arrow its 319fps??? :dunno:
Post by: gonehuntin68 on July 10, 2013, 09:28:01 PM
Shuttle t
:yeah:
Post by: mountainman on July 10, 2013, 10:36:46 PM
Post by: TommyH on July 10, 2013, 10:42:19 PM
Hmmm neat trick rad :tup:
:yeah: I will try to even them all out with that bit of good advise! :tup:
Post by: huntnnw on July 10, 2013, 10:43:42 PM
Post by: CoryTDF on July 10, 2013, 10:49:48 PM
Post by: TommyH on July 10, 2013, 10:54:21 PM
Post by: RadSav on July 10, 2013, 11:55:16 PM
Many years ago, a gentleman by the name of Emery Losielle did a test comparing several types of heads, namely a Zwickey cut on impact, a Thunderhead trocar style (chisel tip), and a Barrie Rocky Mountain Razor conical (like an inverted ice cream com), and measured the foot pounds to completely penetrate a piece of elk hide.. The results were interesting!
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: Only someone as old and crazy as me would know Emery. That's funny! He sure got a lot of press for a few years and wrote a couple funny books. But his science was heavily based on conjecture and supposition. The static force test was one of his classics. Completely rubbish from a science stand point, but you had to appreciate his dedication and enthusiasm. Especially enjoy it when he talks about his "Monster" bow.
I remember him being a bow review writer for some off the wall publication. I think it was "Archery" magazine if I remember right. Too bad Norb Mullaney came along and made him look like a buffoon. Because I really enjoyed the entertainment value of his writing and his little so called tests. Those were fun times.
That's a good memory lane you took me down. I honestly thank you :tup:
Post by: MLBowhunting on July 11, 2013, 12:43:50 AM
Post by: mountainman on July 11, 2013, 07:02:36 AM
Many years ago, a gentleman by the name of Emery Losielle did a test comparing several types of heads, namely a Zwickey cut on impact, a Thunderhead trocar style (chisel tip), and a Barrie Rocky Mountain Razor conical (like an inverted ice cream com), and measured the foot pounds to completely penetrate a piece of elk hide.. The results were interesting!
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: Only someone as old and crazy as me would know Emery. That's funny! He sure got a lot of press for a few years and wrote a couple funny books. But his science was heavily based on conjecture and supposition. The static force test was one of his classics. Completely rubbish from a science stand point, but you had to appreciate his dedication and enthusiasm. Especially enjoy it when he talks about his "Monster" bow.
I remember him being a bow review writer for some off the wall publication. I think it was "Archery" magazine if I remember right. Too bad Norb Mullaney came along and made him look like a buffoon. Because I really enjoyed the entertainment value of his writing and his little so called tests. Those were fun times.
That's a good memory lane you took me down. I honestly thank you :tup:
[/quote
Lol, Radsav, you are funny. The op was on Montecs, I am trying to interject a point, and as "rubbish" if you can disprove the above test, please do. Yes, he did do some other crazy testing, but the OP is not about crazy old guys (or as I retread, maybe it is?) lol! The discussion is revolving around penetration and durability. Had a Savora fail miserably on a small mulie buck many years ago, and I don't tend to give my hunting equipment any second chances, and now, not many heads I will lay my trust in. Montecs are one of the few!
Post by: Beardo on July 11, 2013, 07:44:49 AM
Shuttle t's are the best ive shot :tup: dropped a cow in her tracks once.agreed. Shuttle t's are awesome. Montecs are my second favorite
Post by: pianoman9701 on July 11, 2013, 07:58:54 AM
magnus snuffer ss anyone?
Snuffers are an awesome broadhead.
Post by: sirmissalot on July 11, 2013, 08:13:19 AM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on July 11, 2013, 09:02:07 AM
While relativley "new" compared to many on here. In 15 years I can only think of one BH malfunction I would label complete failure. ( My hunting partner was using the equipment, as pre season testing had me so skeptical I was afraid to shoot even small game with the stupid thing ) There have been broken blades, bent blades, lost blades, and smashed tips. But " ability to cut enuff good stuff to kill on the way through" is how I view broadhead performance...... the more, cleaner, and faster blood vessels get split = the better the wound bleeds, the faster the wound bleeds, the longer it takes for the wound to clot, and ultimatley the quicker the animal dies. To me sharper is better in my mind. Always has been, in fact while I have shot many heads I have only hunted with 3. Muzzy in my early years, always with brand new blades. Strykers and Montecs. I like the construction of the Montec, they fly like darts. But my ability to get and retain sharpness has caused me to waffle with their use, I have tried everything to get them scary sharp, to no avail. Out of the package sharpness to me is atrocious. Once I get them reasonably sharp it bugs me they are dull on the other side of the animal at which point makes me wonder, When did it become dull? Or if still in the animal is it cutting effectivley? While the Stryker on the other hand is scary sharp from the get go, and although I have had one bent blade, and a smashed tip ( although i think this may have been from a rock on the backside of the bull) the blades remained wicked sharp which tells me it did its job all the way through.
Post by: mountainman on July 11, 2013, 09:31:16 AM
Post by: CoryTDF on July 11, 2013, 10:53:37 AM
Montec are good enough but i have had to throw away EVERY one after I shot an animal as they were bent to the point of no repair. Not saying they are not good just saying there has to be better and I hope I made the right choice with the Slick Trick Mags that I just bought.
Post by: RadSav on July 11, 2013, 04:13:28 PM
Lol, Radsav, you are funny. The op was on Montecs, I am trying to interject a point, and as "rubbish" if you can disprove the above test, please do. Yes, he did do some other crazy testing, but the OP is not about crazy old guys (or as I retread, maybe it is?) lol! The discussion is revolving around penetration and durability. Had a Savora fail miserably on a small mulie buck many years ago, and I don't tend to give my hunting equipment any second chances, and now, not many heads I will lay my trust in. Montecs are one of the few!
Actually I don't think CoryTDF's original post was about Montecs at all. I believe it was a statement that he is leaving them in the dust and looking at SlickTrick or Toxic and asked for other viable option advise. Maybe I read it wrong :dunno:
Static force tests are scientific rubbish because the test is conducted in an environment exactly the opposite of the way a broadhead tipped arrow actually works. It simply shows how much build up of static pressure is required upon a broadheads point to break a certain media threshold. If it was a true test of broadhead penetration it would also show that axe heads and shovel blades would penetrate better than conical pointed broadheads which obviously is not true.
When a broadhead shot from a bow contacts certain media it is not in a state of constant energy increase as in a static force test. It instead is in a state of constant energy loss. The static threshold has already been exceeded the moment the arrow leaves the string. From that point forward penetration is determined by the arrow and broadheads rate of deceleration as apposed to acceleration in a static force test. Point configuration has only as much effect on penetration as it's total percentage of drag related to shedding velocity/energy which is extremely minute. In fact the entire ferrule generally has almost no effect on overall energy transfer or loss. Number of blades, blade angles, blade width, size of vents, configuration of vents, configurations of trailing edges in vents and back of blade, and sharpness of the blade all exceed the rate of deceleration effect than does point configuration unless that point is extraordinary in size percentage to the overall broadhead surface area.
And most of all penetration itself with todays equipment on game animals of North America has little effect on the efficiency of your archery gear to quickly and humanely harvest your game. That job falls 100% upon your heads sharpness and it's ability to stay sharp. Reduction of oxygen related stimulation to the blood platelets assists in prolonging coagulation as well. This is one area not to be overlooked as it too plays a larger role on the expiration of your quarry than does static force, penetration and point configuration.
Now to the point of Montec. The head has good angles and almost certainly the best trailing edges of both the vents and back of blade. So it is not a bad head at all if you are one of the few that can sharpen them extremely well. However, most folks have neither the talent or the patience to sharpen these 120 degree angle blade edges properly. There is never a bad time to support great people of this industry like Lou Grace of G5. For some that might mean leaving Montec in the dust and shooting the wonderfully designed and built Stryker instead. Same point construction combined with well manufactured strip ground blades. It is a great option for those wanting to improve terminal performance while supporting good people and maintaining static force efficiencies.
Post by: mountainman on July 11, 2013, 04:37:58 PM
Post by: RadSav on July 11, 2013, 05:13:33 PM
Wow! LOL!
:chuckle: Well, you did say "please" didn't you? :chuckle:
and as "rubbish" if you can disprove the above test, please do.
Post by: mountainman on July 11, 2013, 06:39:15 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on July 11, 2013, 09:00:00 PM
MTman, The point of my post wasnt to bash Montec in any way. I agree with you they are a good head :tup: It sounds like you have a sharpening process down that works well for you and gets you "shaving" sharp blades. I have tried flat stones, including g5's stone. And while there is a marked improvement. They are still below what I consider acceptable. The advice on the diamond stone and ceramic plate sounds like a great idea, and I will certainly be using it.
My point in adressing the OP's question was that IMO the sharpest blades kill the best. Even you admit that an out of the box Montec does not meet your sharpness criteria. This to me is a problem. And why IMO theirs better heads out their.
Post by: JPhelps on July 11, 2013, 09:08:15 PM
You can't notch a tag until you find the animal. A razor sharp blade insures; you get the most blood out of the wound, the longest blood trail out of the wound and delays the natural ability of the wound to clot.
I love being able to practice with my slick tricks (or any other removable blade head) and replace the blades before I hit the woods, guaranteeing the sharpest blades. I even get nervous with removing and replacing my number one arrow too many times in the quiver foam.
Post by: trophyhunt on July 11, 2013, 09:31:30 PM
Love the shuttle t's, I was always a bit concerned about how dull they are out of the package. There is a utube video on how to sharpen them, but I always figured they had a reason for there dullness. I think it's part of the damage they do, I called in a bull to a friend last year and he got a 15 yard shot on him. We couldn't believe the hole it made going in, the bull only went about 40 yards and died almost as soon as it hit the ground. I was sold on the dullness, it has to be part of the design. I won't be sharpening mine.Shuttle t's are the best ive shot :tup: dropped a cow in her tracks once.agreed. Shuttle t's are awesome. Montecs are my second favorite
Post by: wrongway on July 11, 2013, 09:59:47 PM
Post by: RadSav on July 11, 2013, 10:11:35 PM
I apologize if I dont understand all the science :chuckle: But when you guys refer to a "static" test what does that mean? And how is it done?
The most common static force test for archery arrowheads is done using a coffee can, a piece of leather and a bathroom scale. You cover the open end of the coffee can with the leather then place the can, leather side up, on the bathroom scale. You then press the arrowhead through the leather and watch the scale to see at what pound the broadhead breaks through the leather.
Post by: RadSav on July 12, 2013, 12:08:47 AM
I will stick to the "static" test. It proves itself with out needing a lot of big word gobbledygook to prove it!
OK, rubbish of static force science with small words, picture and no gobbledygook.
Static force test using tanned bear hide:
- Head "A" takes 7.5# to break thru hide
- Head "B" takes 18# to break thru hide
Results of static test = Head "A" better than Head "B"
Results of proven science, big words and gobbledygook = static test is "rubbish"
Post by: mountainman on July 12, 2013, 06:17:27 AM
Oh, and if you really performed the test above, which I doubt, you should try a sharp Montec. Guarantee you would see a difference.
Keep trying my freind....
And have a nice weekend, me, I have an archery shoot to go put on at the Loup Loup ski hill this weekend. Hope to see many of you there!
Post by: MessMaker on July 12, 2013, 06:48:04 AM
Post by: CoryTDF on July 12, 2013, 08:40:53 AM
Post by: RadSav on July 12, 2013, 09:03:31 AM
You have a good weekend too :tup:
Post by: Battle Ready on July 16, 2013, 09:05:06 AM
PS..I've always have wondered how a MIM product with no actual grain structure can become sharp enough to cut hairs on my arm...haha
Post by: mountainman on July 16, 2013, 10:47:27 AM
Bottom line, many heads out there have proven track records, a few do not..We should all stick to what we have faith in and have proven themselves with steaks in the freezer. :)
Post by: lineman125 on July 16, 2013, 11:39:11 PM
Post by: mountainman on July 17, 2013, 02:47:59 AM
hell, I've killed em with satellites ! I switched to montecs a few years back and love em.... leather tests or not, launch em out of a Mathews at 70lbs and i'll kiss your azz if they make an elk bleed out :twocents:
[/quote
That's the secret..they kill best when shot thou a Mathews!! :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :IBCOOL:
Post by: OnHoPr on July 17, 2013, 12:30:34 PM
A sharp strong one. Slick Trick vipers are what Im trying out this year. No matter what head you choose, half the people that use it will say best bloodtrails accuracy and penetration ever, the other half will say the opposite. Truth is as long as its SHARP, tough, and spins straight your going to get the same results in the long run no matter what you choose. No head will give perfect penetration and blood trails EVERY time, the game is just to unpredictable. Just make sure to centerpunch it, most important thing you can do. That said, all the heads mentioned so far would be great choices. :tup:Plus mountainman's quote that they need to be sharpened out of the box. The only broadhead that I have seen that was truly sharp enough out of the box was Razorbacks. IMO a sharp, stout chisel point if your bow/arrow weight is strong enough to break bones. Though I'm only a MI tree stand hunter but might be getting to old for that and might need to get a ground blind. I also get doe fever if one gets within 20 yards. But then technology has come in leaps and bounds. I shoot a Darton. It the second oldest bow company and knows a few things and still wins a few competitions
Post by: ShooterBull on July 18, 2013, 10:34:03 PM
Post by: smartazz171 on July 19, 2013, 10:24:24 PM
Next head I will shoot will be Magnus Stingers with bleeder blades. (no better customer service and its a good head).:yeah: Magnus with bleeders has done nothing but perform for me. Also they hit something and if they ever chip (which i've never seen) just send them to Magnus they replace the whole set, not questions asked.
Post by: Styles on July 21, 2013, 12:13:20 AM
Post by: ShooterBull on July 23, 2013, 10:27:12 PM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on July 24, 2013, 09:18:28 PM
Post by: ShooterBull on July 24, 2013, 10:37:00 PM
Those look nice I was on there website and was interested.I hope to be able to share pics with wound channels in a few months! I'm really excited how well they fly and skookem they are!