Post by: wolfbait on November 24, 2017, 08:11:07 AM
We heard this week, there is a video of wolves killing deer in a field up the Twisp River, last night there was a report of a "bunch of wolves" seen while driving through Balky Hill, and some seen on the river bottom below Benson cr.
What's left of the deer are dropping on to the valley floors, and of course the wolves with them, this is looking to be an exciting time for everyone except the ungulate, livestock and owners.
Will WDF&wolves get that befuddled look on their face, the pretend to be as puzzled as everyone else look. Or will they explain to everyone how wolves double in population each year, and they "had" to lie to the people of WA on the wolf numbers in order to get the departments desired amount of wolves established?
I wonder what WDF&wolves will write in the paper about their prize wolves?
Remember the cougar's of 2014?
http://methownet.com/grist/features/cougar_sightings.html
WDFW knew of 52 collared cougars on the valley floor when this article was written.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on November 24, 2017, 08:20:45 AM
Post by: wolfbait on November 24, 2017, 08:39:55 AM
There was never 52 collared cougars in the Methow. There are a few now, but <10.... never anywhere close to 52.
The number came from a person inside WDFW at the time, after watching you defend WDFW-&wolves for years, I am incline to believe the the other guy... ;)
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on November 24, 2017, 08:49:10 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on November 24, 2017, 09:02:10 AM
Post by: boneaddict on November 24, 2017, 09:04:54 AM
I joked about how well travelled those lookout wolves were
Post by: wolfbait on November 24, 2017, 09:26:57 AM
I don’t think 52 cougars would or could live in one area being as territorial as they are..... would be shocking news. 10 is enough to reduce the deer population tho!
I don't think territory matters too much when predators are hungry, if you read the article, most of the cougar they killed were not wearing collars, WDFW removed 6 that's not counting the cougars that were killed privately.
Be interesting to see what this year brings.
The guy that said WDFW knew of 52 collared cougar on the valley floor at the time, said they could track the cougar movements, he said one night a cougar came out of Bridge Cr went down the country road and over into the Patterson LK country, he said it was surprising how far they could travel in a short amount of time.
Post by: wolfbait on November 24, 2017, 09:31:17 AM
Nothing new about the packs. I always said there were multiple packs and listed where. They always chalked em up as one pack which I knew as total BS.
I joked about how well travelled those lookout wolves were
:yeah: :bash:
In 2008 there were multiple packs, but they would only confirm the one they were forced to.
Post by: huntnphool on November 24, 2017, 09:31:58 AM
In the last week wolf sightings have set the Valley in wonderment, where did all the wolves come from? Is it one huge pack or multiple packs?
We heard this week, there is a video of wolves killing deer in a field up the Twisp River, last night there was a report of a "bunch of wolves" seen while driving through Balky Hill, and some seen on the river bottom below Benson cr.
What's left of the deer are dropping on to the valley floors, and of course the wolves with them, this is looking to be an exciting time for everyone except the ungulate, livestock and owners.
Will WDF&wolves get that befuddled look on their face, the pretend to be as puzzled as everyone else look. Or will they explain to everyone how wolves double in population each year, and they "had" to lie to the people of WA on the wolf numbers in order to get the departments desired amount of wolves established?
I wonder what WDF&wolves will write in the paper about their prize wolves?
Remember the cougar's of 2014?
http://methownet.com/grist/features/cougar_sightings.html
WDFW knew of 52 collared cougars on the valley floor when this article was written.
Can you post up the video please......pics of the Balky Hill critters would be nice too. :tup:
Post by: wolfbait on November 24, 2017, 09:41:19 AM
In the last week wolf sightings have set the Valley in wonderment, where did all the wolves come from? Is it one huge pack or multiple packs?
We heard this week, there is a video of wolves killing deer in a field up the Twisp River, last night there was a report of a "bunch of wolves" seen while driving through Balky Hill, and some seen on the river bottom below Benson cr.
What's left of the deer are dropping on to the valley floors, and of course the wolves with them, this is looking to be an exciting time for everyone except the ungulate, livestock and owners.
Will WDF&wolves get that befuddled look on their face, the pretend to be as puzzled as everyone else look. Or will they explain to everyone how wolves double in population each year, and they "had" to lie to the people of WA on the wolf numbers in order to get the departments desired amount of wolves established?
I wonder what WDF&wolves will write in the paper about their prize wolves?
Remember the cougar's of 2014?
http://methownet.com/grist/features/cougar_sightings.html
WDFW knew of 52 collared cougars on the valley floor when this article was written.
Can you post up the video please......pics of the Balky Hill critters would be nice too. :tup:
Don't have the video as of yet but we have been calling people we know trying to find out who has it.
Don't know if there are any pictures of the wolves on Balky, info came from a guy who helps feed cows.
Have heard of several sightings from Mazama to McFarland Cr.
Post by: wolfbait on November 24, 2017, 09:52:36 AM
Seems no one believes WDF&wolves info. that wolves are shy and timid creatures that avoid people, too many incidences in the past have left that line of BS in the dust.
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on November 24, 2017, 10:39:04 AM
Post by: wolfbait on November 24, 2017, 10:52:05 AM
52 collared lions on the valley floor is total bull, your buddy at FW must get a kick out of telling you that crap and watching you run with it.
I have never known this guy to lie, and there is was no reason for him to. Seemed everyone was either having cat problems or seeing them that year.
Are you connected to WDFW, or are you a cougar expert?
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on November 24, 2017, 11:26:03 AM
Post by: HighlandLofts on November 25, 2017, 12:49:42 PM
Who gives the game department the right to release these POS wolves any way?
Post by: jackelope on November 25, 2017, 04:11:42 PM
As long as there are cougars and wolves hunting the same territory kiss the deer & elk good bye.
We gives the game department the right to release these POS wolves any way?
They didn’t release any wolves....
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Post by: wolfbait on November 25, 2017, 06:17:36 PM
As long as there are cougars and wolves hunting the same territory kiss the deer & elk good bye.
We gives the game department the right to release these POS wolves any way?
They didn’t release any wolves....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There are several folks in Okanogan county that would say "you are either a liar, or you don't know what you are talking about". I would have to agree with them.
Post by: Dick in the Dirt on November 25, 2017, 06:53:51 PM
Post by: Alchase on November 25, 2017, 07:36:37 PM
Nothing new about the packs. I always said there were multiple packs and listed where. They always chalked em up as one pack which I knew as total BS.
I joked about how well travelled those lookout wolves were
In 2014 the Lookout pack was up the Twisp Valley, killing a calf above Davis Lake and I saw two above Lightning Creek all in the same day!
Yep they are a traveling pack, LOL
Now they call those northenders the Loop Loop pack
:dunno:
Must have taken three years just to come up with a name?
Post by: jackelope on November 25, 2017, 08:17:14 PM
As long as there are cougars and wolves hunting the same territory kiss the deer & elk good bye.
We gives the game department the right to release these POS wolves any way?
They didn’t release any wolves....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There are several folks in Okanogan county that would say "you are either a liar, or you don't know what you are talking about". I would have to agree with them.
You keep saying that, but no evidence to support it. Ever.
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Post by: idahohuntr on November 25, 2017, 09:15:11 PM
There are a large number of folks across the state who would say you are a liar or you don't know what you are talking about. 52 collared cougars? Chemtrails? Pics of coyotes you call wolf pups? :chuckle: :chuckle:As long as there are cougars and wolves hunting the same territory kiss the deer & elk good bye.
We gives the game department the right to release these POS wolves any way?
They didn’t release any wolves....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There are several folks in Okanogan county that would say "you are either a liar, or you don't know what you are talking about". I would have to agree with them.
Post by: Alchase on November 25, 2017, 10:37:29 PM
As long as there are cougars and wolves hunting the same territory kiss the deer & elk good bye.
We gives the game department the right to release these POS wolves any way?
They didn’t release any wolves....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There are several folks in Okanogan county that would say "you are either a liar, or you don't know what you are talking about". I would have to agree with them.
Why would you call someone a liar when he is stating a fact that has not been disproven whether you believe they were planted or not?
Many have asked to see anything evidence that could prove wolves have been planted including myself. Yet over the last 10 years nothing has ever been posted to backup the “wolf plant” story.
I am know wolf export, and I have not had to live in their vicinity like you guys in the Methow or other wolf areas.
Honestly Wolbait, if you had convincing evidence to support the “planting” showing it here would gain thousands of voices in support of your “planted wolves” hypothesis.
No need for name calling either way.
Post by: Dan-o on November 26, 2017, 12:03:11 AM
As long as there are cougars and wolves hunting the same territory kiss the deer & elk good bye.
We gives the game department the right to release these POS wolves any way?
They didn’t release any wolves....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There are several folks in Okanogan county that would say "you are either a liar, or you don't know what you are talking about". I would have to agree with them.
Why would you call someone a liar when he is stating a fact that has not been disproven whether you believe they were planted or not?
Many have asked to see anything evidence that could prove wolves have been planted including myself. Yet over the last 10 years nothing has ever been posted to backup the “wolf plant” story.
I am know wolf export, and I have not had to live in their vicinity like you guys in the Methow or other wolf areas.
Honestly Wolbait, if you had convincing evidence to support the “planting” showing it here would gain thousands of voices in support of your “planted wolves” hypothesis.
No need for name calling either way.
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
There is NO evidence that wolves have been planted in Washington.
The evidence has been requested so many times it's tiring.
I can't conceive of the WDFW being able to do an actual wolf release without evidence. Can you?
How would you see that going down?
Where would they raise/feed/house them?
Were the employees sworn to secrecy?
There has to be something more tangible than "Somebody said so."
Post by: nwwanderer on November 26, 2017, 08:01:31 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on November 26, 2017, 08:47:23 AM
I don't know the area that well, but I know wolf packs are not as cohesive as some folks think. If Davis Lake and Lightening Creek are the ones I'm thinking of, they're only ~5 miles apart... which means absolutely nothing to a wolf, they are literally minutes apart.Nothing new about the packs. I always said there were multiple packs and listed where. They always chalked em up as one pack which I knew as total BS.
I joked about how well travelled those lookout wolves were
In 2014 the Lookout pack was up the Twisp Valley, killing a calf above Davis Lake and I saw two above Lightning Creek all in the same day!
Yep they are a traveling pack, LOL
Wolves from the same pack can be scattered out pretty far and wide, so it would not be impossible (or even improbable) for the same pack to have animals in different portions of their home range. That happens quite a bit.
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 26, 2017, 09:01:16 AM
:yeah:As long as there are cougars and wolves hunting the same territory kiss the deer & elk good bye.
We gives the game department the right to release these POS wolves any way?
They didn’t release any wolves....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There are several folks in Okanogan county that would say "you are either a liar, or you don't know what you are talking about". I would have to agree with them.
Why would you call someone a liar when he is stating a fact that has not been disproven whether you believe they were planted or not?
Many have asked to see anything evidence that could prove wolves have been planted including myself. Yet over the last 10 years nothing has ever been posted to backup the “wolf plant” story.
I am know wolf export, and I have not had to live in their vicinity like you guys in the Methow or other wolf areas.
Honestly Wolbait, if you had convincing evidence to support the “planting” showing it here would gain thousands of voices in support of your “planted wolves” hypothesis.
No need for name calling either way.
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 26, 2017, 09:07:54 AM
I have a hard time believing there were ever 52 collared cougars. Previous comments about cougar territorialism are spot on. Dominant males will kill or drive out any other males in their territory.
WDFW never needed to release wolves. They moved on their own unless you have video evidence to the contrary. We have documented evidence of wolves travelling several hundreds of miles and starting new packs.
Keep the discussion civil without pointing fingers and calling names. Telling another forum member he's a liar is unacceptable. This is why hunters can't coordinate when it's really important that we do. :twocents:
Post by: wolfbait on November 26, 2017, 09:18:41 AM
I remember two releases that really stood out, several WDFW rigs on the county road watching collared wolves just released run across the hillside.
The very same time frame another release in lower Alder Cr, which a UPS guy caught them doing, he was promptly told he didn't see what he thought he saw and in a week he was moved to another route.
A few days later the wolves killed a cow and calf and both WDFW and the USFWS ran to the papers and lied about it.
Talk to a county commissioner who told me of six releases he knew about, I knew of five at that time.
Funny how the pro-wolf crowd always leaps to their feet and exclaim there were no wolf releases in WA?
Alchace, I don’t include you in the pro-wolf crowd, you ask why folks in Okanogan County would call Jackalope a liar, if you read back I said he is either a liar or he doesn’t know what he is talking about, you chose liar,
Why is the pro-wolf crowd so adamant that WDFW didn’t release wolves?
See, WDFW gave us the worst wolf plan in the lower 48, they refuse to confirm wolf packs unless forced to do so through livestock predation, refuse to confirm livestock predation.
They lied about the wolves of the 1980’s and 90’s.
Why would WDFW protect predators over ungulates? Why would they want the game herds decimated?
Those are questions you should be asking.
And while you are at it, ask yourself why the USFWS, WDF&wolves and CNW can’t get their story straight on where the wolves came from.
Where Did Washington’s Wolves Come From?
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Northern Rocky Mountain Recovery Program Update
2008
Until 2008, no wild wolves had been confirmed west of the DPS boundary in Washington or Oregon. However, in July 2008, a wolf pack (2 adults and 6 pups) was discovered near Twisp, WA (just east of the North Cascades and west of the DPS boundary). Genetic testing showed these wolves did not originate from the NRM DPS; instead they apparently dispersed southward from the wolf population in southcentral British Columbia. Both adults were radio-collared and the pack is being monitored via radio telemetry by Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife. If this pack persists it will remain separated and distinct from the NRM DPS by the large expanse of unsuitable wolf habitat in eastern WA and OR.
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/annualrpt08/FINAL_2008_USFWS_Recovery_Program_Update_3-17-09.pdf
DNA samples confirm gray wolves are back in Methow Valley By Joyce Campbell
Methow Valley News
July 24, 2008
DNA tests showed that the wolves originated from a population in the northern British Columbia and Alberta provinces of Canada.
“This is a natural colonization,” said Fitkin. “The wolves are naturally immigrating.”
http://www.conservationnw.org/news/pressroom/press-clips/dna-samples-confirm-gray-wolves-are-back-in-methow-valley
Is there a difference between “southcentral British Columbia” and “northern British Columbia and Alberta provinces of Canada”?
Perhaps the USFWS and WDFW should have gotten their story straight as to where they were going to say the wolves came from? I guess they couldn’t say, we hauled them in from Idaho with horse trailers, it just wouldn’t fit the narrative of: (“This is a natural colonization,” said Fitkin. “The wolves are naturally immigrating.” )
*Update* – June 13, 2014:
“DNA obtained from Lookout Pack wolves has shown they are descendents of wolves living in coastal British Columbia”, who lived separately from inland wolves for many generations, “Conservation Northwest” said in a press release.
http://methowvalleynews.com/2013/06/25/will-federal-delisting-impact-states-wolves/
http://tomremington.com/2014/06/09/the-naturally-migrating-gi-wolves/
The one thing that I have lost all hope in is that anyone will ever be held accountable, not that it matters at this point, WA is finished.
The game herds will be decimated, and what will be WDF&wolves excuse for their lack of management?
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 26, 2017, 09:28:49 AM
Post by: boneaddict on November 26, 2017, 09:41:14 AM
Quote
I have a hard time believing there were ever 52 collared cougars.
THe person to ask would probably be Steve Reynaud. I think he was the one running them. 52 isnt that hard to believe. I think 4 out of the last 5 cats I have seen in the methow were collared. (excluding kittens).
Transparancy or acute lack there of is one of the reasons no one believes the WDFW.
THere are alot of wolves in the Methow Valley. Its a joke that they were lumped into the lookout pack. (which they publicly claimed was down to two animals) Its basically why we either think they are stupid or they are liars. If they have an agenda, and they must, it would have been nice if they declared it. Basically they treat everyone like they are idiots or conspiracy theorists and we do the same to them.
Then there is a batch of you that want written proof. Documents, herd counts etc. and you believe every word they tell you. LOL!
The bottom line is there is something going on. You are being kept in the dark and the mule deer are suffering from it and every other card that is being thrown at them.
Post by: jackelope on November 26, 2017, 10:10:19 AM
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Post by: jackelope on November 26, 2017, 10:11:40 AM
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Post by: packmule on November 26, 2017, 03:09:07 PM
52 cougars seems absurd and I think DFW is too inept to pull off wolf releases without leaving a pile of proof somewhere. The way wolves move around why would they waste the time and $?
Seems like everyone agrees that predator numbers are WAY too high and the Methow deer herd is in a desperate state, so whats the point of bickering about these other details?
Post by: boneaddict on November 26, 2017, 03:25:09 PM
Quote
Seems like everyone agrees that predator numbers are WAY too high and the Methow deer herd is in a desperate state, so whats the point of bickering about these other details?
Exactly
Post by: Dan-o on November 26, 2017, 03:54:42 PM
If there is one way to get most of the pro-wolf crowd out, it's to state WDF&wolves released wolves in WA, and they did.
I remember two releases that really stood out, several WDFW rigs on the county road watching collared wolves just released run across the hillside.
The very same time frame another release in lower Alder Cr, which a UPS guy caught them doing, he was promptly told he didn't see what he thought he saw and in a week he was moved to another route.
A few days later the wolves killed a cow and calf and both WDFW and the USFWS ran to the papers and lied about it.
Talk to a county commissioner who told me of six releases he knew about, I knew of five at that time.
Funny how the pro-wolf crowd always leaps to their feet and exclaim there were no wolf releases in WA?
Alchace, I don’t include you in the pro-wolf crowd, you ask why folks in Okanogan County would call Jackalope a liar, if you read back I said he is either a liar or he doesn’t know what he is talking about, you chose liar,
Why is the pro-wolf crowd so adamant that WDFW didn’t release wolves?
See, WDFW gave us the worst wolf plan in the lower 48, they refuse to confirm wolf packs unless forced to do so through livestock predation, refuse to confirm livestock predation.
They lied about the wolves of the 1980’s and 90’s.
Why would WDFW protect predators over ungulates? Why would they want the game herds decimated?
Those are questions you should be asking.
And while you are at it, ask yourself why the USFWS, WDF&wolves and CNW can’t get their story straight on where the wolves came from.
Where Did Washington’s Wolves Come From?
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Northern Rocky Mountain Recovery Program Update
2008
Until 2008, no wild wolves had been confirmed west of the DPS boundary in Washington or Oregon. However, in July 2008, a wolf pack (2 adults and 6 pups) was discovered near Twisp, WA (just east of the North Cascades and west of the DPS boundary). Genetic testing showed these wolves did not originate from the NRM DPS; instead they apparently dispersed southward from the wolf population in southcentral British Columbia. Both adults were radio-collared and the pack is being monitored via radio telemetry by Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife. If this pack persists it will remain separated and distinct from the NRM DPS by the large expanse of unsuitable wolf habitat in eastern WA and OR.
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/annualrpt08/FINAL_2008_USFWS_Recovery_Program_Update_3-17-09.pdf
DNA samples confirm gray wolves are back in Methow Valley By Joyce Campbell
Methow Valley News
July 24, 2008
DNA tests showed that the wolves originated from a population in the northern British Columbia and Alberta provinces of Canada.
“This is a natural colonization,” said Fitkin. “The wolves are naturally immigrating.”
http://www.conservationnw.org/news/pressroom/press-clips/dna-samples-confirm-gray-wolves-are-back-in-methow-valley
Is there a difference between “southcentral British Columbia” and “northern British Columbia and Alberta provinces of Canada”?
Perhaps the USFWS and WDFW should have gotten their story straight as to where they were going to say the wolves came from? I guess they couldn’t say, we hauled them in from Idaho with horse trailers, it just wouldn’t fit the narrative of: (“This is a natural colonization,” said Fitkin. “The wolves are naturally immigrating.” )
*Update* – June 13, 2014:
“DNA obtained from Lookout Pack wolves has shown they are descendents of wolves living in coastal British Columbia”, who lived separately from inland wolves for many generations, “Conservation Northwest” said in a press release.
http://methowvalleynews.com/2013/06/25/will-federal-delisting-impact-states-wolves/
http://tomremington.com/2014/06/09/the-naturally-migrating-gi-wolves/
The one thing that I have lost all hope in is that anyone will ever be held accountable, not that it matters at this point, WA is finished.
The game herds will be decimated, and what will be WDF&wolves excuse for their lack of management?
Labeling people,that don't buy your "wolf plant" story as pro-wolf is laughable.
Personally, i see no benefit to having wolves in Washington. Certainly, not to the level that they've been allowed to impact some areas.
I'd be fine with no wolves. I'd support an open season.
But....... Nobody ever has ANY proof of these mythical wolf welease besides "Jim Bob Cooter down at the grange says he Black Helicopters dropping wolves up up on Clyde's Ridge". But then he was visited by men in black suits with dark sunglasses and told that he didn't see it.
Who HONESTLY believes that the WDFW is even competent enough to conduct a full blown wolf release without anything getting out? They can't even kill a batch of salmon smolts without it making the news.
I can't give WDFW enough credit to believe that they could do this clandestinely.
And to insist that they did - without providing ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL - just seems like a long shot.
But yeah, just keep calling people like me pro-wolf. :tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:
Post by: HighlandLofts on November 26, 2017, 04:27:17 PM
Ok I'll play...
52 cougars seems absurd and I think DFW is too inept to pull off wolf releases without leaving a pile of proof somewhere. The way wolves move around why would they waste the time and $?
Seems like everyone agrees that predator numbers are WAY too high and the Methow deer herd is in a desperate state, so whats the point of bickering about these other details?
It would be a shame if a wolf was mistaken to be a coyote.
Post by: hunter399 on November 26, 2017, 05:00:40 PM
Post by: wolfbait on November 26, 2017, 05:46:35 PM
Wolfbait, you frequently label everyone who disagrees with anything you say as the "pro-wolf crowd". Not only is that inaccurate - I see no benefit to having wolves in WA as they currently exist - it's disingenuous. You sometimes put up useful information. Sometimes, not so much. You often turn on people who would normally agree with your stance on wolves. Not a great trait and certainly not one which will advance your views on this forum. It'd be of great benefit to you to stop attacking other concerned hunters. When you make claims that on the face seem outrageous, video or photographic evidence wouldn't hurt your credibility at all. Otherwise, it's going to be viewed as unsubstantiated rumor and hyperbole. :twocents:
Nice little rant P-man, I didn't turn on anyone. You need to trot back and re-read. You talk like the label “pro-wolf” is a dirty word? What would you like to call people who support the wolf agenda? I think most of the pro-wolf people now are those connected to the USFWS, WDFW, CNW etc. and support the agenda of no hunting. Then there are those who only read the I love the wolf propaganda. I do know there are far fewer pro-wolf people today then there was say 8 years ago. Many more people have and are realizing that wolves are not a good thing and the lies told by the USFWS, and WDF&wolves didn’t stand the test of time.
I don't get too excited over the wolf issue anymore, I have seen the writing on the wall for a quite a few years now. We watched each year as the deer herds changed to what we have today. For those who don't live here, or only visit occasionally I wouldn't expect them to see the changes until hunting season rolls around.
Did you read my last post P-man? You and others trust WDFW when they say they didn’t plant wolves. Tell me where WA's wolves came from, there seems to be plenty of “documentation” from the USFWS, WDFW and CNW in my post above.
WDFW have not been honest on the wolf issue from the beginning and it hasn’t changed to date.
Remember the 2008 “first wolf pack in 70 years” lie? The terrible wolf plan? The refusal to confirm wolf packs and wolf predation unless forced to do so.
And yet you and others will blindly take WDF&wolves word that they didn’t release wolves. Amazing.
In Washington, Feds Opt For Wolf Introduction Over Recovery
http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2010/06/08/in-washington-feds-opt-for-wolf-introduction-over-recovery/
I guess maybe you would like to control free speech, it’s ok to say that WDFW didn’t release wolves but if you say they did, well not so much. Funny how that works.
Post by: jackelope on November 26, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
So still no evidence? Nobody took a pic? You’ve dodged my and many others question a couple times in this thread and lots of times over the years. No evidence of a release to support your claims?
What’s the difference between taking Wdfw’s word that they didn’t plant wolves and taking your word that they did?
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Post by: Alchase on November 26, 2017, 06:43:53 PM
I don't know the area that well, but I know wolf packs are not as cohesive as some folks think. If Davis Lake and Lightening Creek are the ones I'm thinking of, they're only ~5 miles apart... which means absolutely nothing to a wolf, they are literally minutes apart.Nothing new about the packs. I always said there were multiple packs and listed where. They always chalked em up as one pack which I knew as total BS.
I joked about how well travelled those lookout wolves were
In 2014 the Lookout pack was up the Twisp Valley, killing a calf above Davis Lake and I saw two above Lightning Creek all in the same day!
Yep they are a traveling pack, LOL
Wolves from the same pack can be scattered out pretty far and wide, so it would not be impossible (or even improbable) for the same pack to have animals in different portions of their home range. That happens quite a bit.
This was when the WDFW would not admit there were more wolves than the Lookout pack in the Methow. The whole Lookout pack was accounted for up the Twisp River Valley according to the WDFW so those could not have been wolves eating the calf above Davis Lake or the two sighted above Lightning Creek. Ironically Loop Loop is a short trot for a wolf from Lighty Creek.
Post by: huntnphool on November 26, 2017, 10:03:01 PM
Wolfbait, you frequently label everyone who disagrees with anything you say as the "pro-wolf crowd". Not only is that inaccurate - I see no benefit to having wolves in WA as they currently exist - it's disingenuous. You sometimes put up useful information. Sometimes, not so much. You often turn on people who would normally agree with your stance on wolves. Not a great trait and certainly not one which will advance your views on this forum. It'd be of great benefit to you to stop attacking other concerned hunters. When you make claims that on the face seem outrageous, video or photographic evidence wouldn't hurt your credibility at all. Otherwise, it's going to be viewed as unsubstantiated rumor and hyperbole. :twocents:I don't get too excited over the wolf issue anymore
:o
Post by: bigmacc on November 27, 2017, 11:09:46 AM
.QuoteI have a hard time believing there were ever 52 collared cougars.
THe person to ask would probably be Steve Reynaud. I think he was the one running them. 52 isnt that hard to believe. I think 4 out of the last 5 cats I have seen in the methow were collared. (excluding kittens).
Transparancy or acute lack there of is one of the reasons no one believes the WDFW.
THere are alot of wolves in the Methow Valley. Its a joke that they were lumped into the lookout pack. (which they publicly claimed was down to two animals) Its basically why we either think they are stupid or they are liars. If they have an agenda, and they must, it would have been nice if they declared it. Basically they treat everyone like they are idiots or conspiracy theorists and we do the same to them.
Then there is a batch of you that want written proof. Documents, herd counts etc. and you believe every word they tell you. LOL!
The bottom line is there is something going on. You are being kept in the dark and the mule deer are suffering from it and every other card that is being thrown at them.
We seen 6 cats in a 10 day period, all within 2 units in the Methow this year, all 6 were different cats, out of the 6, 3 were collared, I too don't think 52 collared cats in the whole valley is that far fetched, heck it may be more :dunno:. I agree with bone, "the bottom line is there is something going on", its a big mess as far as predator numbers of all species go, cats, bear, yotes and wolves and the mule deer herd is absolutely suffering from it.
Post by: Special T on November 27, 2017, 11:41:39 AM
Well said Bone.QuoteI have a hard time believing there were ever 52 collared cougars.
THe person to ask would probably be Steve Reynaud. I think he was the one running them. 52 isnt that hard to believe. I think 4 out of the last 5 cats I have seen in the methow were collared. (excluding kittens).
Transparancy or acute lack there of is one of the reasons no one believes the WDFW.
THere are alot of wolves in the Methow Valley. Its a joke that they were lumped into the lookout pack. (which they publicly claimed was down to two animals) Its basically why we either think they are stupid or they are liars. If they have an agenda, and they must, it would have been nice if they declared it. Basically they treat everyone like they are idiots or conspiracy theorists and we do the same to them.
Then there is a batch of you that want written proof. Documents, herd counts etc. and you believe every word they tell you. LOL!
The bottom line is there is something going on. You are being kept in the dark and the mule deer are suffering from it and every other card that is being thrown at them.
I doubt WDFW released any but wouldn't doubt USFW or some NGO did. It's unfortunate more folks don't think to use thier camera phone.
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Post by: shotguunar on November 27, 2017, 04:01:48 PM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on November 27, 2017, 04:10:09 PM
Post by: winshooter88 on November 27, 2017, 04:21:40 PM
Post by: jackelope on November 27, 2017, 04:32:30 PM
53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014. 112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas. The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full
This was one from the Blues. If I remember correctly the biologist suspected he was collared in 2009 5-10 miles away from here. Date on the pic is accurate.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171128/50642ecac7e9a400124a96d232a42185.jpg)
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Post by: boneaddict on November 27, 2017, 04:39:53 PM
Quote
the official number of wolf packs in the Methow area is now up to 2
Easily two short without any stretch of imagination
Post by: winshooter88 on November 27, 2017, 04:51:44 PM
Post by: boneaddict on November 27, 2017, 04:59:20 PM
Here’s one of those puddins
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv47%2Fboneaddict%2Fbonesbucks%2F2F2B1A0A-6EA3-4117-994D-AB9DBD92719E_zpslliirz5c.jpeg&hash=62152636cc5a6abbedfcfae1aafa5b0538744efd)
Post by: bigmacc on November 27, 2017, 05:09:07 PM
53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014. 112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas. The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full
Great info :tup:, well I said awhile back that in the 55 plus years I have hunted the Methow I have seen more cougars in the last 10 years than I have seen total in the other 45 years. Just seems they are spending a lot of time, man hours and money in "predator management" in the Methow, the deer herd seems to have taken a back seat, that statement could be wrong but seeing a booming predator population, collared cats everywhere, cougar kills(we seen over 20 cached kills in the same 10 day period in the same 2 units) scattered around like I have never seen before and some of the locals I know over there telling me to watch my back trail regularly when I,m out there and advising about making sure I have my "close up gun" on me when I,m out and about, then throw in a deer herd thats not even a faint shadow of what it was 10 years ago let alone 20 years ago, and oh yes, throw in the wolves and its easy to see something is just not quite right with this situation. If they are spending all the time and money studying the predators over there to help the deer herd, its not working, by the time the "study" is over the deer may be all but gone. :twocents:
Post by: bobcat on November 27, 2017, 05:19:14 PM
Post by: Alchase on November 27, 2017, 05:47:46 PM
53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014. 112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas. The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full
Thanks for the info Doublelung, it puts that “53” in perspective.
Would you have any inside information on any “wolf plants”?
Inquiring minds want to know?
Anyone ever done a FOIA request for information on transplanted wolves?
Post by: Special T on November 27, 2017, 06:08:17 PM
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Post by: Axle on November 27, 2017, 06:34:08 PM
The pro-wolf crowd on this forum follows Wolfbait around like a pack of wolves trying to discredit him at every turn. The true hunters and conservatives see what is happening and there are many on this forum that will not stand up in his defense but they agree with him. They just don’t want to get ridiculed and I really can’t blame them.
Our government has been attacking hunters (conservatives by nature - similar to the military) in many ways. The corrupt, unlawful wolf introduction of non-native wolves was a jewel in their crown of corruption!
The goal of the liberal agenda is to destroy the conservative movement at every angle.
Most hunters are either blind to this or they simply don’t want to hear it or don’t want to take action.
They may sadly wake up one day to find there is no hunting available and conservatives (most hunters) will be blamed for ‘killing off’ the ungulates they desire to hunt - but were denied the management tools to sustain huntable numbers of ungulates. That’s the back door plan of those who support these non-native wolves. I hope you aren’t surprised by this.
Part of the plan is to discredit those who are sending out the warning messages.
That’s the job of the liberal media. Some are on this forum. I wish they weren’t but they are and they are very loud.
Regardless of the number of cats, wolves, coyotes, or bears – we have far too many predators in this state and this state’s wildlife department is part of the corruption and they are not managing for hunters. They are managing for predators. I have been saying this for 30 years or more.
I’ve been ridiculed too but I know where it comes from.
Post by: Pinetar on November 27, 2017, 06:43:34 PM
Post by: zwickeyman on November 27, 2017, 06:57:41 PM
You wont ever find truer words written on this forum than what you say. I agree with you 100% and applaud you Sir
Post by: bigmacc on November 27, 2017, 07:04:43 PM
Shouldn't the predator populations decrease right along with the deer? Or do they make up for the lack of deer by eating pets and livestock? Just wondering, since it seems an historically low number of deer should also result in a low number of predators, since those predators can't live long and continue reproducing if they have nothing to eat.
Well bobcat I think that is what a lot of us with history in the Methow have been saying for the last 5 to 10 years, IMHO I think that if things continue the way they are now, what we are seeing is the beginning of the end of this herd. Remember, back in the day(prior to the predator boom) this herd fluctuated between 30 to 40 thousand head so there has been plenty for them to eat. I believe F and W says the herd is between 15k to 20k now days( a lot of us think those numbers are much, much lower) so the herd is AT MOST half of what it was. So I guess if things stay the same then in about another 10 years this herd is going to really be in bad shape and will probably be down for the count, more livestock and pets will be targeted and eventually the predators will move on to "greener pastures" :dunno:... :twocents:
Post by: Alchase on November 27, 2017, 07:11:40 PM
It’s almost funny - but actually very sad.
The pro-wolf crowd on this forum follows Wolfbait around like a pack of wolves trying to discredit him at every turn. The true hunters and conservatives see what is happening and there are many on this forum that will not stand up in his defense but they agree with him. They just don’t want to get ridiculed and I really can’t blame them.
Our government has been attacking hunters (conservatives by nature - similar to the military) in many ways. The corrupt, unlawful wolf introduction of non-native wolves was a jewel in their crown of corruption!
The goal of the liberal agenda is to destroy the conservative movement at every angle.
Most hunters are either blind to this or they simply don’t want to hear it or don’t want to take action.
They may sadly wake up one day to find there is no hunting available and conservatives (most hunters) will be blamed for ‘killing off’ the ungulates they desire to hunt - but were denied the management tools to sustain huntable numbers of ungulates. That’s the back door plan of those who support these non-native wolves. I hope you aren’t surprised by this.
Part of the plan is to discredit those who are sending out the warning messages.
That’s the job of the liberal media. Some are on this forum. I wish they weren’t but they are and they are very loud.
Regardless of the number of cats, wolves, coyotes, or bears – we have far too many predators in this state and this state’s wildlife department is part of the corruption and they are not managing for hunters. They are managing for predators. I have been saying this for 30 years or more.
I’ve been ridiculed too but I know where it comes from.
I have not read one person say “we want more wolves” intact it has been a crossed the board in agreement we have way too many predators.
The question the thread brought up again, was the assertion that the wolves were illegally transplanted.
If you have some information to share that proves that wolves were transplanted please share with the rest of us?
Many on here have talked about the duplicity of the WDFW reguarding wolves in the past, and would love to have the “smoking gun” that shows they did transplant wolves.
Yet no one has stepped up with anything that shows they did.
This argument has been on going since this sight has been up. In all that time, nothing has come up supporting the position that wolves were illegally transplanted.
Post by: DaveMonti on November 27, 2017, 07:17:48 PM
The pro-wolf crowd on this forum follows Wolfbait around like a pack of wolves trying to discredit him at every turn.
...they are not managing for hunters.
Regarding the first line above, I haven't seen anyone attack Wolfbait. Nobody is trying to discredit him. People are asking for him to provide proof, or FACTS, about his claims.
Secondly, as far as the WDFW "managing for hunters", who actually thinks the department is there to serve hunters? They are chartered to manage all wildlife in the state, NOT JUST GAME ANIMALS. Myself, and many, do not necessarily agree with the WAY the department is managing the wildlife, but if you think the WDFW exists to insure there are overpopulations of game animals throughout the state so every hunter can harvest a trophy, you might need an adjustment in your expectations.
I'm no fan of predators or the way they are managed. However, when someone like Wolfbait incessantly makes conspiratorial claims with no real proof, he runs the risk of being perceived as someone who has an entire tin foil wardrobe.
It's not only the message that one delivers, but the WAY it is delivered that makes people listen and respect the messenger.
Post by: Special T on November 27, 2017, 07:17:57 PM
As some one who has been blown off seeing wolves, and others I know the same, it's hard for me to belive that the department is on the up and up. NWWABOWHUNTER posted pics up here of a wolf pack on the nooksack and was blown off.
You don't have to belive Wolfbait, but you had better pay attention when Bone essentially backs up what he is saying... If you don't think he has street cred then you must be blind to the piles of pictures he takes.
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Post by: boneaddict on November 27, 2017, 07:28:55 PM
Shouldn't the predator populations decrease right along with the deer? Or do they make up for the lack of deer by eating pets and livestock? Just wondering, since it seems an historically low number of deer should also result in a low number of predators, since those predators can't live long and continue reproducing if they have nothing to eat.
I think that was the whole jist of the first post. This winter is going to be interesting
Post by: idaho guy on November 27, 2017, 08:01:59 PM
53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014. 112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas. The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full
get your facts straight wolfbait there wasn't 52 cougars collared it was 53! geez man stick to the facts! :chuckle:
Post by: fishngamereaper on November 27, 2017, 08:16:09 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on November 27, 2017, 08:29:57 PM
some people's definition of proof is different than his.:chuckle: Yea, I would agree with that.
Post by: Special T on November 27, 2017, 08:51:33 PM
some people's definition of proof is different than his.:chuckle: Yea, I would agree with that.
I hate to break it to ya but if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck.... I dont need a DNA sample to say its a duck. We KNOW that USFW brought wolves from the Mackenzie valley Canada to ID and YNP. We KNOW that the USFWS is trying to "Transplant" Grizz in the Cascades... Ive been to the meetings We know the USFW has used the Sue and Settle Technique. We know that the WDFW has a LOT of influence from "Stake holders" Whom are Faux sportsmen.... Is this Quacking and Waddling yet? Perhaps not but even if it isnt its damned close.
Post by: Dan-o on November 27, 2017, 09:15:08 PM
some people's definition of proof is different than his.:chuckle: Yea, I would agree with that.
I hate to break it to ya but if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck.... I dont need a DNA sample to say its a duck. We KNOW that USFW brought wolves from the Mackenzie valley Canada to ID and YNP. We KNOW that the USFWS is trying to "Transplant" Grizz in the Cascades... Ive been to the meetings We know the USFW has used the Sue and Settle Technique. We know that the WDFW has a LOT of influence from "Stake holders" Whom are Faux sportsmen.... Is this Quacking and Waddling yet? Perhaps not but even if it isnt its damned close.
As a guy who doesn't believe that WDFW planted wolves because I don't see any evidence, I think you're kind of making my point.
We KNOW about those other transplants because there...... was...... evidence.....
I've never called Wolfbait any names (nor anyone else that believes in WDFW wolf transplants). I don't call you pro-wolf, or any other names.
I think we can all agree that out of control wolf populations are drastically impacting big game in the many parts of NE Washington, and that predators need to be managed more aggressively.
Good night, all.
Post by: ribka on November 27, 2017, 09:15:56 PM
some people's definition of proof is different than his.:chuckle: Yea, I would agree with that.
Agree wholeheartedly
Would be super cool if wdfw would continue to shut down more hunting opportunities for sportsmen here in Washington so the wolf populations would grow unchecked. And shut down more mountain lion hunting too (thanks conservation NW and Mitch Friedman )and add more predators (bears ) to the mix
It's a win win for sportsmen here in the PNW. :tup:
Post by: jackelope on November 27, 2017, 09:46:23 PM
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Post by: kellama2001 on November 28, 2017, 09:02:20 AM
...This winter is going to be interesting
:yeah:
Post by: huntnphool on November 28, 2017, 09:47:14 AM
...This winter is going to be interesting
:yeah:
If we can get a couple more weeks of weather like this we should be okay, even if it snows heavily after.........fingers crossed.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on November 28, 2017, 10:27:17 AM
I'm personally 100% positive WDFW has never imported wolves into the state. I'm unaware of any wolves trapped in state that were released anywhere other than at the capture location, however when doing helicopter captures of ungulates it is not uncommon to transport them to a nearby work-up location. I don't know if that has been done with wolves, but if so it would be counterproductive for research to move them out of the pack territory.53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014. 112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas. The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full
Thanks for the info Doublelung, it puts that “53” in perspective.
Would you have any inside information on any “wolf plants”?
Inquiring minds want to know?
Anyone ever done a FOIA request for information on transplanted wolves?
I am aware of at least two occasions where unauthorized releases of captive animals that were possibly dog hybrids have been detected and which did not persist beyond a few months. Those were in Chelan and Lincoln Counties. Both were 10+ years ago. I reported one my wife and I saw along Highway 2 in Lincoln Co. in 2007 that was subsequently roadkill a few weeks later, IIRC it was an escaped animal.
I would be surprised if nobody has done a FOIA for transplanted wolves. I dismiss any possibility of rogue employees of WDFW doing so, I've heard the rumors and dismiss them as such - especially given WDFW's willingness to sack or otherwise sanction employees for unauthorized activities.
To put it into perspective, the relatively non-controversial re-establishment of bighorns on Chelan Butte required 3+ years of bureaucratic process (habitat suitability evaluation, strong advocacy by the WA Sheep Foundation, SEPA, etc.) before sheep were trapped in Region 3 and transplanted.
I'm 10+ years out from having any insider information. I can state that it was about 5 years from when field personnel, both USFS and WDFW, suspected there was a pack between Lake Chelan and the Methow River until the Lookout Pack was confirmed. I think that is likely faster now with dedicated wolf funding and personnel, but it is still reasonable to suspect at least a 1-2 year lag between the time a pack is suspected and when it is confirmed.
Post by: Special T on November 28, 2017, 10:53:14 AM
I'll play devils advocate and your likely the best positioned to answer.I'm personally 100% positive WDFW has never imported wolves into the state. I'm unaware of any wolves trapped in state that were released anywhere other than at the capture location, however when doing helicopter captures of ungulates it is not uncommon to transport them to a nearby work-up location. I don't know if that has been done with wolves, but if so it would be counterproductive for research to move them out of the pack territory.53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014. 112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas. The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full
Thanks for the info Doublelung, it puts that “53” in perspective.
Would you have any inside information on any “wolf plants”?
Inquiring minds want to know?
Anyone ever done a FOIA request for information on transplanted wolves?
I am aware of at least two occasions where unauthorized releases of captive animals that were possibly dog hybrids have been detected and which did not persist beyond a few months. Those were in Chelan and Lincoln Counties. Both were 10+ years ago. I reported one my wife and I saw along Highway 2 in Lincoln Co. in 2007 that was subsequently roadkill a few weeks later, IIRC it was an escaped animal.
I would be surprised if nobody has done a FOIA for transplanted wolves. I dismiss any possibility of rogue employees of WDFW doing so, I've heard the rumors and dismiss them as such - especially given WDFW's willingness to sack or otherwise sanction employees for unauthorized activities.
To put it into perspective, the relatively non-controversial re-establishment of bighorns on Chelan Butte required 3+ years of bureaucratic process (habitat suitability evaluation, strong advocacy by the WA Sheep Foundation, SEPA, etc.) before sheep were trapped in Region 3 and transplanted.
I'm 10+ years out from having any insider information. I can state that it was about 5 years from when field personnel, both USFS and WDFW, suspected there was a pack between Lake Chelan and the Methow River until the Lookout Pack was confirmed. I think that is likely faster now with dedicated wolf funding and personnel, but it is still reasonable to suspect at least a 1-2 year lag between the time a pack is suspected and when it is confirmed.
The antelope that have been transplanted was done outside of the WDFW influence and knowledge. I belive it was SCI and the Tribe. Isn't it possible that some 3rd party trans planted animals? It has happened with fish... I recognize it's probably more difficult than many other animals...
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Post by: Practical Approach on November 28, 2017, 11:10:31 AM
As far a prey, wolves are adaptable animals. They will swap prey species if and when needed or simply relocate I would suspect.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 28, 2017, 11:13:01 AM
Post by: Practical Approach on November 28, 2017, 11:20:46 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 28, 2017, 11:26:36 AM
Post by: Humptulips on November 28, 2017, 11:35:57 AM
The point is if they can prove they were transplanted it could be taken to court.
And if you could take it to court what could be done about it? The cat is out of the bag so to speak. They are not going to say collect them up.
Maybe someone at the Department gets in trouble but what does that get you?
I'm not sure why we go round and round on this.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 28, 2017, 11:41:28 AM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on November 28, 2017, 11:57:40 AM
Yes, that is possible. It has definitely been done with turkeys in both WA and WY. Elk farms in CO have been convicted of trapping and privatizing free-ranging elk.I'll play devils advocate and your likely the best positioned to answer.I'm personally 100% positive WDFW has never imported wolves into the state. I'm unaware of any wolves trapped in state that were released anywhere other than at the capture location, however when doing helicopter captures of ungulates it is not uncommon to transport them to a nearby work-up location. I don't know if that has been done with wolves, but if so it would be counterproductive for research to move them out of the pack territory.53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014. 112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas. The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full
Thanks for the info Doublelung, it puts that “53” in perspective.
Would you have any inside information on any “wolf plants”?
Inquiring minds want to know?
Anyone ever done a FOIA request for information on transplanted wolves?
I am aware of at least two occasions where unauthorized releases of captive animals that were possibly dog hybrids have been detected and which did not persist beyond a few months. Those were in Chelan and Lincoln Counties. Both were 10+ years ago. I reported one my wife and I saw along Highway 2 in Lincoln Co. in 2007 that was subsequently roadkill a few weeks later, IIRC it was an escaped animal.
I would be surprised if nobody has done a FOIA for transplanted wolves. I dismiss any possibility of rogue employees of WDFW doing so, I've heard the rumors and dismiss them as such - especially given WDFW's willingness to sack or otherwise sanction employees for unauthorized activities.
To put it into perspective, the relatively non-controversial re-establishment of bighorns on Chelan Butte required 3+ years of bureaucratic process (habitat suitability evaluation, strong advocacy by the WA Sheep Foundation, SEPA, etc.) before sheep were trapped in Region 3 and transplanted.
I'm 10+ years out from having any insider information. I can state that it was about 5 years from when field personnel, both USFS and WDFW, suspected there was a pack between Lake Chelan and the Methow River until the Lookout Pack was confirmed. I think that is likely faster now with dedicated wolf funding and personnel, but it is still reasonable to suspect at least a 1-2 year lag between the time a pack is suspected and when it is confirmed.
The antelope that have been transplanted was done outside of the WDFW influence and knowledge. I belive it was SCI and the Tribe. Isn't it possible that some 3rd party trans planted animals? It has happened with fish... I recognize it's probably more difficult than many other animals...
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Post by: BeerBugler on November 28, 2017, 12:08:09 PM
It’s almost funny - but actually very sad.
The pro-wolf crowd on this forum follows Wolfbait around like a pack of wolves trying to discredit him at every turn. The true hunters and conservatives see what is happening and there are many on this forum that will not stand up in his defense but they agree with him. They just don’t want to get ridiculed and I really can’t blame them.
Our government has been attacking hunters (conservatives by nature - similar to the military) in many ways. The corrupt, unlawful wolf introduction of non-native wolves was a jewel in their crown of corruption!
The goal of the liberal agenda is to destroy the conservative movement at every angle.
Most hunters are either blind to this or they simply don’t want to hear it or don’t want to take action.
They may sadly wake up one day to find there is no hunting available and conservatives (most hunters) will be blamed for ‘killing off’ the ungulates they desire to hunt - but were denied the management tools to sustain huntable numbers of ungulates. That’s the back door plan of those who support these non-native wolves. I hope you aren’t surprised by this.
Part of the plan is to discredit those who are sending out the warning messages.
That’s the job of the liberal media. Some are on this forum. I wish they weren’t but they are and they are very loud.
Regardless of the number of cats, wolves, coyotes, or bears – we have far too many predators in this state and this state’s wildlife department is part of the corruption and they are not managing for hunters. They are managing for predators. I have been saying this for 30 years or more.
I’ve been ridiculed too but I know where it comes from.
Spot On!
Post by: jackelope on November 28, 2017, 12:27:32 PM
The point is if they can prove they were transplanted it could be taken to court.
We have a winner!!!!
Post by: jackelope on November 28, 2017, 12:28:43 PM
I'll play devils advocate and your likely the best positioned to answer.I'm personally 100% positive WDFW has never imported wolves into the state. I'm unaware of any wolves trapped in state that were released anywhere other than at the capture location, however when doing helicopter captures of ungulates it is not uncommon to transport them to a nearby work-up location. I don't know if that has been done with wolves, but if so it would be counterproductive for research to move them out of the pack territory.53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014. 112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas. The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full
Thanks for the info Doublelung, it puts that “53” in perspective.
Would you have any inside information on any “wolf plants”?
Inquiring minds want to know?
Anyone ever done a FOIA request for information on transplanted wolves?
I am aware of at least two occasions where unauthorized releases of captive animals that were possibly dog hybrids have been detected and which did not persist beyond a few months. Those were in Chelan and Lincoln Counties. Both were 10+ years ago. I reported one my wife and I saw along Highway 2 in Lincoln Co. in 2007 that was subsequently roadkill a few weeks later, IIRC it was an escaped animal.
I would be surprised if nobody has done a FOIA for transplanted wolves. I dismiss any possibility of rogue employees of WDFW doing so, I've heard the rumors and dismiss them as such - especially given WDFW's willingness to sack or otherwise sanction employees for unauthorized activities.
To put it into perspective, the relatively non-controversial re-establishment of bighorns on Chelan Butte required 3+ years of bureaucratic process (habitat suitability evaluation, strong advocacy by the WA Sheep Foundation, SEPA, etc.) before sheep were trapped in Region 3 and transplanted.
I'm 10+ years out from having any insider information. I can state that it was about 5 years from when field personnel, both USFS and WDFW, suspected there was a pack between Lake Chelan and the Methow River until the Lookout Pack was confirmed. I think that is likely faster now with dedicated wolf funding and personnel, but it is still reasonable to suspect at least a 1-2 year lag between the time a pack is suspected and when it is confirmed.
The antelope that have been transplanted was done outside of the WDFW influence and knowledge. I belive it was SCI and the Tribe. Isn't it possible that some 3rd party trans planted animals? It has happened with fish... I recognize it's probably more difficult than many other animals...
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
WDFW knew about all pronghorn releases. They were just unwilling to assist. They were fully involved in the last transplants.
Post by: idahohuntr on November 28, 2017, 01:51:34 PM
I'll play along (even though its unequivocally clear WDFW did not release wolves into WA)...what does "taking this to court" solve or address? It won't change wolf management, de-listing, migration of wolves into WA, etc. So what is the end game?The point is if they can prove they were transplanted it could be taken to court.
We have a winner!!!!
Post by: jackelope on November 28, 2017, 02:42:01 PM
I'll play along (even though its unequivocally clear WDFW did not release wolves into WA)...what does "taking this to court" solve or address? It won't change wolf management, de-listing, migration of wolves into WA, etc. So what is the end game?The point is if they can prove they were transplanted it could be taken to court.
We have a winner!!!!
Maybe just the legitimate ability to bash the crap out of WDFW on huntwa over the wolf release debate.
Or maybe just a final answer to the age old question that's been looming here for years. .....Is there actually evidence....??
:dunno:
Post by: Bob33 on November 28, 2017, 03:20:46 PM
That would never satisfy those who believe they were released. No evidence, is evidence of the coverup.I'll play along (even though its unequivocally clear WDFW did not release wolves into WA)...what does "taking this to court" solve or address? It won't change wolf management, de-listing, migration of wolves into WA, etc. So what is the end game?The point is if they can prove they were transplanted it could be taken to court.
We have a winner!!!!
Maybe just the legitimate ability to bash the crap out of WDFW on huntwa over the wolf release debate.
Or maybe just a final answer to the age old question that's been looming here for years. .....Is there actually evidence....??
:dunno:
Post by: npaull on November 28, 2017, 03:36:06 PM
Quote
The true hunters and conservatives see what is happening and there are many on this forum that will not stand up in his defense but they agree with him. They just don’t want to get ridiculed and I really can’t blame them.
I'm super interested to know what a TRUE hunter is.
Somehow, I have a sneaking suspicion that it's somebody who a) hunts and b) agrees with everything you think. :rolleyes:
Post by: bobcat on November 28, 2017, 03:40:11 PM
QuoteThe true hunters and conservatives see what is happening and there are many on this forum that will not stand up in his defense but they agree with him. They just don’t want to get ridiculed and I really can’t blame them.
I'm super interested to know what a TRUE hunter is.
Somehow, I have a sneaking suspicion that it's somebody who a) hunts and b) agrees with everything you think. :rolleyes:
:chuckle:
Post by: NumaJohn on November 28, 2017, 03:42:32 PM
Does it matter at all that WDFW denies the accusation that they have introduced wolves? Does it help clear things up if they "totally" deny it?
There is no question that wolves were introduced--with much fanfare, debate, joy, and disgust--in the greater Yellowstone ecosystem. But where, precisely, is the credible, relevant evidence the accusers are citing in indicting WDFW in the court of Forum opinion? Why is it so difficult to believe that wolves in Canada, over time, built up their populations to the point that some/many of them eventually crossed what is to them an artificial border? We all know how quickly wolf populations are growing, so it just doesn't seem at all unlikely that the wolves came into northern MT, ID, and WA on their own and got after it. If there is evidence of illegal wolf introductions, however, I would support prosecution to the full extent of the law. Bashing WDFW based on heresay, though, seems counterproductive for all hunters, regardless of their political stripes and overarching opinions about wolves.
John
Post by: boneaddict on November 28, 2017, 04:20:41 PM
🐺 eats 🦌
Post by: boneaddict on November 28, 2017, 04:25:56 PM
Maybe we will get lucky and like the lemmings, will all rush to the ocean and drown.lol
Post by: Special T on November 28, 2017, 05:23:33 PM
I hate to re hash the facts, but if this was happening why would the USFW bring them in? They brought them in to YNP and ID. Consider how fast the wolves have spread from introduction areas essentially east and west, not southerly through the cascades and Rockies. Since there have been wolves present In BC one could assume that in the short 20 year period of thier great expansion would have taken place at the beginning of thier protection in the 70s.
If the WDFW actually wanted to build trust and faith (there is an obvious lack of it) why do we not know how manny wolves are collared? Why not thier general locations?
I often explain to my kids that trust is hard earned and easily lost. What is the department doing to earn our trust?
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Post by: Special T on November 28, 2017, 05:25:20 PM
I’m curious. Wolves have been in the Methow since probably the beginning of time, but let’s go back to my Grandfathers time. Say 1920. Then my fathers time, then my time. Pre pack days, and now. What an amazing recovery they have made. I wonder why they are doing so well. Better than turkeys 🦃 lol.Let's not forget that even the WDFW has made statements about knowing what lineage these new wolves come from with thier DNA testing.... and they seem to be coming from those in ID.
Maybe we will get lucky and like the lemmings, will all rush to the ocean and drown.lol
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Post by: jackelope on November 28, 2017, 05:37:42 PM
I’m curious. Wolves have been in the Methow since probably the beginning of time, but let’s go back to my Grandfathers time. Say 1920. Then my fathers time, then my time. Pre pack days, and now. What an amazing recovery they have made. I wonder why they are doing so well. Better than turkeys 🦃 lol.
Maybe we will get lucky and like the lemmings, will all rush to the ocean and drown.lol
So do you think someone planted them in the Methow? Or anywhere in WA for that matter?
(not to include any of the whacko's releasing wolf/dog mixes out of the back of their cars)
Post by: Axle on November 28, 2017, 05:37:50 PM
Quote
The point is if they can prove they were transplanted it could be taken to court.
Dream on!
That would be like taking Bill and Hitlery to court. You wouldn't make it the steps of the courthouse.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on November 28, 2017, 05:38:57 PM
"Why is it so difficult to believe that wolves in Canada, over time, built up their populations to the point that some/many of them eventually crossed what is to them an artificial border? We all know how quickly wolf populations are growing, so it just doesn't seem at all unlikely that the wolves came into northern MT, ID, and WA on their own"
I hate to re hash the facts, but if this was happening why would the USFW bring them in? They brought them in to YNP and ID. Consider how fast the wolves have spread from introduction areas essentially east and west, not southerly through the cascades and Rockies. Since there have been wolves present In BC one could assume that in the short 20 year period of thier great expansion would have taken place at the beginning of thier protection in the 70s.
If the WDFW actually wanted to build trust and faith (there is an obvious lack of it) why do we not know how manny wolves are collared? Why not thier general locations?
I often explain to my kids that trust is hard earned and easily lost. What is the department doing to earn our trust?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
We had wolves prior to the Yellowstone ones migrating to here. A pack was up in the Northcascades National Park at Hozomeen.
Post by: jackelope on November 28, 2017, 05:39:21 PM
QuoteThe point is if they can prove they were transplanted it could be taken to court.
Dream on!
That would be like taking Bill and Hitlery to court. You wouldn't make it the steps of the courthouse.
At a minimum it would put the age old question to bed.
Post by: boneaddict on November 28, 2017, 05:55:35 PM
I’m curious. Wolves have been in the Methow since probably the beginning of time, but let’s go back to my Grandfathers time. Say 1920. Then my fathers time, then my time. Pre pack days, and now. What an amazing recovery they have made. I wonder why they are doing so well. Better than turkeys 🦃 lol.
Maybe we will get lucky and like the lemmings, will all rush to the ocean and drown.lol
So do you think someone planted them in the Methow? Or anywhere in WA for that matter?
(not to include any of the whacko's releasing wolf/dog mixes out of the back of their cars)
I have my suspicions, but obviously no proof other than local observations from people I know. I also know that unless someone wants to go to jail, lose their career, we will never know the truth. Dang near grassy knoll material.
I know there is plenty of other deception. That can’t be denied. I have way more problem with that than anything.
Post by: bigmacc on November 28, 2017, 06:30:51 PM
I’m curious. Wolves have been in the Methow since probably the beginning of time, but let’s go back to my Grandfathers time. Say 1920. Then my fathers time, then my time. Pre pack days, and now. What an amazing recovery they have made. I wonder why they are doing so well. Better than turkeys 🦃 lol.
Maybe we will get lucky and like the lemmings, will all rush to the ocean and drown.lol
So do you think someone planted them in the Methow? Or anywhere in WA for that matter?
(not to include any of the whacko's releasing wolf/dog mixes out of the back of their cars)
I have my suspicions, but obviously no proof other than local observations from people I know. I also know that unless someone wants to go to jail, lose their career, we will never know the truth. Dang near grassy knoll material.
I know there is plenty of other deception. That can’t be denied. I have way more problem with that than anything.
Here, Here :tup:, Its, like yourself and a lot of us have been saying bone, somethings is not quite right, in fact something really stinks, its a mess, the predator issue just keeps getting worse, a lot of questions are out there, trust in the WDFW is practically non existent by more and more people, its a real shame and in the meantime the Methow herd is disappearing. I too no longer trust much that comes out of the WDFW, my trust started eroding when they actually became the WDFW.
Post by: Humptulips on November 28, 2017, 10:56:29 PM
I’m curious. Wolves have been in the Methow since probably the beginning of time, but let’s go back to my Grandfathers time. Say 1920. Then my fathers time, then my time. Pre pack days, and now. What an amazing recovery they have made. I wonder why they are doing so well. Better than turkeys 🦃 lol.
Maybe we will get lucky and like the lemmings, will all rush to the ocean and drown.lol
So do you think someone planted them in the Methow? Or anywhere in WA for that matter?
(not to include any of the whacko's releasing wolf/dog mixes out of the back of their cars)
I have my suspicions, but obviously no proof other than local observations from people I know. I also know that unless someone wants to go to jail, lose their career, we will never know the truth. Dang near grassy knoll material.
They'll probably release all the documents in 65 years. Same day they delist them. :chuckle:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 29, 2017, 05:01:31 AM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on November 29, 2017, 08:37:20 AM
"Why is it so difficult to believe that wolves in Canada, over time, built up their populations to the point that some/many of them eventually crossed what is to them an artificial border? We all know how quickly wolf populations are growing, so it just doesn't seem at all unlikely that the wolves came into northern MT, ID, and WA on their own"My own opinion is that USFWS brought wolves from Canada to YNP in 1995 in order to beat natural recolonization of the GYE and southwards prior to having naturally established wolf packs as had already occurred in northern MT. They wanted the flexibility (for themselves) of an experimental, nonessential designation for wolves in the Rockies south of I90 in Montana, not a fully ESA-protected naturally colonized population. They were quite willing to swamp the genetics of the residual population, if any, and naturally colonized wolves in order to achieve that goal. As a result, you ended up with some strange bedfellows in court trying to stop the introduction, such as hardcore environmentalists and the Wyoming Stockgrowers Association suing on the basis of genetics to try and stop it. In the end, politics and questionable science trumped politics, questionable science, and the law.
I hate to re hash the facts, but if this was happening why would the USFW bring them in? They brought them in to YNP and ID. Consider how fast the wolves have spread from introduction areas essentially east and west, not southerly through the cascades and Rockies. Since there have been wolves present In BC one could assume that in the short 20 year period of thier great expansion would have taken place at the beginning of thier protection in the 70s.
Post by: idaho guy on November 29, 2017, 09:58:28 AM
It’s almost funny - but actually very sad.
The pro-wolf crowd on this forum follows Wolfbait around like a pack of wolves trying to discredit him at every turn. The true hunters and conservatives see what is happening and there are many on this forum that will not stand up in his defense but they agree with him. They just don’t want to get ridiculed and I really can’t blame them.
Our government has been attacking hunters (conservatives by nature - similar to the military) in many ways. The corrupt, unlawful wolf introduction of non-native wolves was a jewel in their crown of corruption!
The goal of the liberal agenda is to destroy the conservative movement at every angle.
Most hunters are either blind to this or they simply don’t want to hear it or don’t want to take action.
They may sadly wake up one day to find there is no hunting available and conservatives (most hunters) will be blamed for ‘killing off’ the ungulates they desire to hunt - but were denied the management tools to sustain huntable numbers of ungulates. That’s the back door plan of those who support these non-native wolves. I hope you aren’t surprised by this.
Part of the plan is to discredit those who are sending out the warning messages.
That’s the job of the liberal media. Some are on this forum. I wish they weren’t but they are and they are very loud.
Regardless of the number of cats, wolves, coyotes, or bears – we have far too many predators in this state and this state’s wildlife department is part of the corruption and they are not managing for hunters. They are managing for predators. I have been saying this for 30 years or more.
I’ve been ridiculed too but I know where it comes from.
:yeah: Why fight over the small point of who brought the wolves in? In the meantime the anti hunting liberals are winning as Washington becomes a predator pit and hunters fight over I need proof wdfw introduced wolves! Who cares wolfbait has posted more solid information than anyone on wolves that I have read and some stuff that is definitely easy to question-but his overall messages is correct. On wolves and cougars and every other predator Washington refuses to manage and the end result is less hunting opportunity and more important less wildlife. Even if somehow hunting Washington could prove or disprove the covert introduction it wont change the important things at all and that is total mismanagement of wildlife by favoring an abundance of predators. When all the deer in the methow are gone the wolves wont deciline they will simply move and kill all the game in another area. Eventually they will get to Idaho and we will take care of them. Even with trapping and hunting they seem almost impossible to control with their reproductive rates.
Post by: bigmacc on November 29, 2017, 10:25:11 AM
Post by: ribka on November 29, 2017, 10:30:21 AM
:tup:
It’s almost funny - but actually very sad.
The pro-wolf crowd on this forum follows Wolfbait around like a pack of wolves trying to discredit him at every turn. The true hunters and conservatives see what is happening and there are many on this forum that will not stand up in his defense but they agree with him. They just don’t want to get ridiculed and I really can’t blame them.
Our government has been attacking hunters (conservatives by nature - similar to the military) in many ways. The corrupt, unlawful wolf introduction of non-native wolves was a jewel in their crown of corruption!
The goal of the liberal agenda is to destroy the conservative movement at every angle.
Most hunters are either blind to this or they simply don’t want to hear it or don’t want to take action.
They may sadly wake up one day to find there is no hunting available and conservatives (most hunters) will be blamed for ‘killing off’ the ungulates they desire to hunt - but were denied the management tools to sustain huntable numbers of ungulates. That’s the back door plan of those who support these non-native wolves. I hope you aren’t surprised by this.
Part of the plan is to discredit those who are sending out the warning messages.
That’s the job of the liberal media. Some are on this forum. I wish they weren’t but they are and they are very loud.
Regardless of the number of cats, wolves, coyotes, or bears – we have far too many predators in this state and this state’s wildlife department is part of the corruption and they are not managing for hunters. They are managing for predators. I have been saying this for 30 years or more.
I’ve been ridiculed too but I know where it comes from.
:yeah: Why fight over the small point of who brought the wolves in? In the meantime the anti hunting liberals are winning as Washington becomes a predator pit and hunters fight over I need proof wdfw introduced wolves! Who cares wolfbait has posted more solid information than anyone on wolves that I have read and some stuff that is definitely easy to question-but his overall messages is correct. On wolves and cougars and every other predator Washington refuses to manage and the end result is less hunting opportunity and more important less wildlife. Even if somehow hunting Washington could prove or disprove the covert introduction it wont change the important things at all and that is total mismanagement of wildlife by favoring an abundance of predators. When all the deer in the methow are gone the wolves wont deciline they will simply move and kill all the game in another area. Eventually they will get to Idaho and we will take care of them. Even with trapping and hunting they seem almost impossible to control with their reproductive rates.
Post by: cbond3318 on November 29, 2017, 10:43:28 AM
It’s almost funny - but actually very sad.
The pro-wolf crowd on this forum follows Wolfbait around like a pack of wolves trying to discredit him at every turn. The true hunters and conservatives see what is happening and there are many on this forum that will not stand up in his defense but they agree with him. They just don’t want to get ridiculed and I really can’t blame them.
Our government has been attacking hunters (conservatives by nature - similar to the military) in many ways. The corrupt, unlawful wolf introduction of non-native wolves was a jewel in their crown of corruption!
The goal of the liberal agenda is to destroy the conservative movement at every angle.
Most hunters are either blind to this or they simply don’t want to hear it or don’t want to take action.
They may sadly wake up one day to find there is no hunting available and conservatives (most hunters) will be blamed for ‘killing off’ the ungulates they desire to hunt - but were denied the management tools to sustain huntable numbers of ungulates. That’s the back door plan of those who support these non-native wolves. I hope you aren’t surprised by this.
Part of the plan is to discredit those who are sending out the warning messages.
That’s the job of the liberal media. Some are on this forum. I wish they weren’t but they are and they are very loud.
Regardless of the number of cats, wolves, coyotes, or bears – we have far too many predators in this state and this state’s wildlife department is part of the corruption and they are not managing for hunters. They are managing for predators. I have been saying this for 30 years or more.
I’ve been ridiculed too but I know where it comes from.
:yeah: Why fight over the small point of who brought the wolves in? In the meantime the anti hunting liberals are winning as Washington becomes a predator pit and hunters fight over I need proof wdfw introduced wolves! Who cares wolfbait has posted more solid information than anyone on wolves that I have read and some stuff that is definitely easy to question-but his overall messages is correct. On wolves and cougars and every other predator Washington refuses to manage and the end result is less hunting opportunity and more important less wildlife. Even if somehow hunting Washington could prove or disprove the covert introduction it wont change the important things at all and that is total mismanagement of wildlife by favoring an abundance of predators. When all the deer in the methow are gone the wolves wont deciline they will simply move and kill all the game in another area. Eventually they will get to Idaho and we will take care of them. Even with trapping and hunting they seem almost impossible to control with their reproductive rates.
:tup: boom
Post by: bigmacc on November 29, 2017, 11:10:01 AM
It’s almost funny - but actually very sad.
The pro-wolf crowd on this forum follows Wolfbait around like a pack of wolves trying to discredit him at every turn. The true hunters and conservatives see what is happening and there are many on this forum that will not stand up in his defense but they agree with him. They just don’t want to get ridiculed and I really can’t blame them.
Our government has been attacking hunters (conservatives by nature - similar to the military) in many ways. The corrupt, unlawful wolf introduction of non-native wolves was a jewel in their crown of corruption!
The goal of the liberal agenda is to destroy the conservative movement at every angle.
Most hunters are either blind to this or they simply don’t want to hear it or don’t want to take action.
They may sadly wake up one day to find there is no hunting available and conservatives (most hunters) will be blamed for ‘killing off’ the ungulates they desire to hunt - but were denied the management tools to sustain huntable numbers of ungulates. That’s the back door plan of those who support these non-native wolves. I hope you aren’t surprised by this.
Part of the plan is to discredit those who are sending out the warning messages.
That’s the job of the liberal media. Some are on this forum. I wish they weren’t but they are and they are very loud.
Regardless of the number of cats, wolves, coyotes, or bears – we have far too many predators in this state and this state’s wildlife department is part of the corruption and they are not managing for hunters. They are managing for predators. I have been saying this for 30 years or more.
I’ve been ridiculed too but I know where it comes from.
:yeah: Why fight over the small point of who brought the wolves in? In the meantime the anti hunting liberals are winning as Washington becomes a predator pit and hunters fight over I need proof wdfw introduced wolves! Who cares wolfbait has posted more solid information than anyone on wolves that I have read and some stuff that is definitely easy to question-but his overall messages is correct. On wolves and cougars and every other predator Washington refuses to manage and the end result is less hunting opportunity and more important less wildlife. Even if somehow hunting Washington could prove or disprove the covert introduction it wont change the important things at all and that is total mismanagement of wildlife by favoring an abundance of predators. When all the deer in the methow are gone the wolves wont deciline they will simply move and kill all the game in another area. Eventually they will get to Idaho and we will take care of them. Even with trapping and hunting they seem almost impossible to control with their reproductive rates.
Its kind of what I was saying a couple pages ago, the deer in the Methow will eventually be depleted to the point that the predators will move on to "greener pastures" and yes, we as hunters will probably have to find other areas(or states)to put our time into. As I,ve said numerous times, at this point in time the Methow herd is getting smacked hard and has been for awhile , the decline of the Methow herd is a multi headed snake, mis-maneggment of the herd, mis-management of predators, lack of trust in F and W, deception and some left hooks thrown by Mother Nature in the last 10 years. You are right Idaho guy, Washington and especially the Methow has turned into a "predator pit" and is getting worse.
Post by: bigmacc on November 29, 2017, 11:44:03 AM
Post by: idaho guy on November 29, 2017, 11:55:26 AM
We may have to return to the days of "bounty's" on these predators(I know it won't happen, not in this state), sure would work though, wheres Quigley!!
:tup:
Post by: bigmacc on November 30, 2017, 11:10:50 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on November 30, 2017, 11:15:05 AM
We may have to return to the days of "bounty's" on these predators(I know it won't happen, not in this state), sure would work though, wheres Quigley!!
[/quote
Oh those where the days...I remember shooting coyotes in eburg in the mid 90s while going to college. Make enough for beer money. We used to get $10 a dog.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 30, 2017, 11:15:46 AM
Post by: jackelope on November 30, 2017, 11:34:15 AM
just 3 wheres the other 22 wolves?
They're spread out across the entire remainder of the NCWA.
:yike:
Post by: Alchase on November 30, 2017, 11:54:22 AM
Well speak of the devil!! Just talked to a friend who seen 3 wolves up towards Ramsey :bash:
I know that is only about 10 miles (as a bird fly's or a wolf runs) from the Lightning creek area where they have been for years, it just seems like the end is near, hearing they are on Ramsey and Pearrygen and Blue Buck peaks.
Also means they are in the Winter feed meadow above Pearrygen Lake.
:bash:
Post by: bigmacc on November 30, 2017, 12:18:23 PM
Well speak of the devil!! Just talked to a friend who seen 3 wolves up towards Ramsey :bash:
I know that is only about 10 miles (as a bird fly's or a wolf runs) from the Lightning creek area where they have been for years, it just seems like the end is near, hearing they are on Ramsey and Pearrygen and Blue Buck peaks.
Also means they are in the Winter feed meadow above Pearrygen Lake.
:bash:
Your right Alchase, I know there have been sightings up Boulder creek the last couple years, If you have a good arm you could throw a rock into Boulder from where he seen these, probably the same bunch, who the h@@@ really knows :dunno:
Post by: boneaddict on November 30, 2017, 12:59:30 PM
Funny the biologist doesn’t know that....but then again, just lookout wolves right
( especially considering their HQ is about 2 miles away)
Post by: Special T on November 30, 2017, 01:13:48 PM
They ve been wintering above LundgrensWillfully ignorant?
Funny the biologist doesn’t know that....but then again, just lookout wolves right
( especially considering their HQ is about 2 miles away)
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Post by: bigmacc on November 30, 2017, 01:28:48 PM
They ve been wintering above Lundgrens
Funny the biologist doesn’t know that....but then again, just lookout wolves right
( especially considering their HQ is about 2 miles away)
:yeah: go figure :bash:.....Poor Don, he had a couple cougars up in there a year or two ago, he even found one hiding by one of his hay rolls out in the field if I remember right.......the valley turning into a "predator pit" isn't to far off bone :twocents:
Post by: Alchase on November 30, 2017, 01:53:54 PM
They ve been wintering above Lundgrens
Funny the biologist doesn’t know that....but then again, just lookout wolves right
( especially considering their HQ is about 2 miles away)
Wow, just wow :bash:
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on November 30, 2017, 07:08:00 PM
Predators are an easy scapegoat, but generally it's a host of issues that combine to cause serious population declines
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on November 30, 2017, 07:15:42 PM
They ve been wintering above Lundgrens
Funny the biologist doesn’t know that....but then again, just lookout wolves right
( especially considering their HQ is about 2 miles away)
Wow, just wow :bash:
Want to her wow?
Word on the street from a very reliable source (I not going into why person is so reliable not burning my source) that the bios know of a pack by Darrington but doesn’t exist because no collars on them, and no dna yet. :yike: :bash:
Post by: Special T on December 01, 2017, 07:43:31 AM
That would make sense. My mother and wife saw one up at lake Cavanaugh on 2 desperate occasions.They ve been wintering above Lundgrens
Funny the biologist doesn’t know that....but then again, just lookout wolves right
( especially considering their HQ is about 2 miles away)
Wow, just wow :bash:
Want to her wow?
Word on the street from a very reliable source (I not going into why person is so reliable not burning my source) that the bios know of a pack by Darrington but doesn’t exist because no collars on them, and no dna yet. :yike: :bash:
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Post by: jackelope on December 01, 2017, 07:45:47 AM
That would make sense. My mother and wife saw one up at lake Cavanaugh on 2 desperate occasions.They ve been wintering above Lundgrens
Funny the biologist doesn’t know that....but then again, just lookout wolves right
( especially considering their HQ is about 2 miles away)
Wow, just wow :bash:
Want to her wow?
Word on the street from a very reliable source (I not going into why person is so reliable not burning my source) that the bios know of a pack by Darrington but doesn’t exist because no collars on them, and no dna yet. :yike: :bash:
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
But collars don't confirm a pack.
Does DNA?
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 01, 2017, 07:49:01 AM
That would make sense. My mother and wife saw one up at lake Cavanaugh on 2 desperate occasions.They ve been wintering above Lundgrens
Funny the biologist doesn’t know that....but then again, just lookout wolves right
( especially considering their HQ is about 2 miles away)
Wow, just wow :bash:
Want to her wow?
Word on the street from a very reliable source (I not going into why person is so reliable not burning my source) that the bios know of a pack by Darrington but doesn’t exist because no collars on them, and no dna yet. :yike: :bash:
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
But collars don't confirm a pack.
Does DNA?
They’ve seen them, but without collars, and dna samples they don’t exist. Just another stall tactic to keep them on the list. :twocents:
Post by: jackelope on December 01, 2017, 07:53:03 AM
You said
Quote
the bios know of a pack by Darrington but doesn’t exist because no collars on themwhich made me think you were saying they needed to be collared in order to be called a pack. Maybe I misunderstood.
Post by: bobcat on December 01, 2017, 07:58:53 AM
Post by: Special T on December 01, 2017, 08:01:08 AM
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Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 01, 2017, 08:03:11 AM
Post by: Special T on December 01, 2017, 08:06:18 AM
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Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 01, 2017, 08:10:04 AM
There are several people that could bring the proof but it would be bleeding all over in the bed of thier truck.
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That’s probably why they aren’t talking about them, lots of folks there would tame them if found.
Post by: Special T on December 01, 2017, 08:16:17 AM
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Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 01, 2017, 08:17:16 AM
Well they have been ignoring peoples sightings for long enough it would be ironic if a dead one showed up on thier doorstep with a note of where they could be found.
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That would be hilarious. :chuckle:
Bet they would still have to test the dna before confirming it.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on December 01, 2017, 08:21:54 AM
It's a good thing we don't manage moose, sheep, turkeys, goats, ect with the same mindset.
Post by: jackelope on December 01, 2017, 08:28:30 AM
I think what they need is proof that the wolves they know about are actually raising pups successfully. As an actual pack. Without collars to track them maybe they haven't yet been able to get the evidence they need. It's not just that they don't have collars so they can't call it a pack. There's scientific protocol that the average person doesn't know about, including myself. I doubt they're trying to hide the fact that there are wolves in a particular area.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:yeah:
Post by: jackelope on December 01, 2017, 08:29:34 AM
A "pack" is a meaningless measure. The state needs "Breeding pairs" to count towards recovery. A pack is just a couple animals travelling together... a breeding pair is a mated pair that raises pups until January 1 of the next year. It's a tough measure for sure. Recovery is based on the number of breeding pairs throughout three portions of the state. NE Washington has LOTS of packs and breeding pairs, but is not considered recovered until the S Cascades unit recovers, which will be a while.
It's a good thing we don't manage moose, sheep, turkeys, goats, ect with the same mindset.
Thanks for clarifying, Bart.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 01, 2017, 08:36:48 AM
WDFW is monitoring big game populations, predator-prey relationships, and hunter harvest closely. If any ungulate population falls 25 percent below its population objective for two consecutive years, and/or if hunter harvest decreases by 25 percent below the 10-year average harvest rate for two consecutive years, WDFW may consider reducing wolf abundance in affected areas, where applicable with federal law.As prescribed by the state’s Wolf Conservation and Management Plan, if wolf predation became a primary limiting factor for an “at risk” ungulate population in a wolf recovery region that had at least four successful breeding pairs of wolves, WDFW could consider reducing wolf abundance in the localized area. An “at risk” ungulate population is any federal or state listed species (Selkirk Mountain woodland caribou, Columbian white-tailed deer) or any ungulate population that falls 25 percent below its population objective for two consecutive years, and/or if hunter harvest decreases by 25 percent below the 10-year average harvest rate for two consecutive years.
Their population objective is WAY, WAY below what it should be.
Post by: bobcat on December 01, 2017, 08:44:21 AM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 01, 2017, 09:08:19 AM
Here in lies the problem:
WDFW is monitoring big game populations, predator-prey relationships, and hunter harvest closely. If any ungulate population falls 25 percent below its population objective for two consecutive years, and/or if hunter harvest decreases by 25 percent below the 10-year average harvest rate for two consecutive years, WDFW may consider reducing wolf abundance in affected areas, where applicable with federal law.As prescribed by the state’s Wolf Conservation and Management Plan, if wolf predation became a primary limiting factor for an “at risk” ungulate population in a wolf recovery region that had at least four successful breeding pairs of wolves, WDFW could consider reducing wolf abundance in the localized area. An “at risk” ungulate population is any federal or state listed species (Selkirk Mountain woodland caribou, Columbian white-tailed deer) or any ungulate population that falls 25 percent below its population objective for two consecutive years, and/or if hunter harvest decreases by 25 percent below the 10-year average harvest rate for two consecutive years.
Their population objective is WAY, WAY below what it should be.
We’ll have to see the harvest numbers, but I bet the Methow is probably already there.
Post by: bigmacc on December 01, 2017, 09:10:59 AM
Here in lies the problem:
WDFW is monitoring big game populations, predator-prey relationships, and hunter harvest closely. If any ungulate population falls 25 percent below its population objective for two consecutive years, and/or if hunter harvest decreases by 25 percent below the 10-year average harvest rate for two consecutive years, WDFW may consider reducing wolf abundance in affected areas, where applicable with federal law.As prescribed by the state’s Wolf Conservation and Management Plan, if wolf predation became a primary limiting factor for an “at risk” ungulate population in a wolf recovery region that had at least four successful breeding pairs of wolves, WDFW could consider reducing wolf abundance in the localized area. An “at risk” ungulate population is any federal or state listed species (Selkirk Mountain woodland caribou, Columbian white-tailed deer) or any ungulate population that falls 25 percent below its population objective for two consecutive years, and/or if hunter harvest decreases by 25 percent below the 10-year average harvest rate for two consecutive years.
Their population objective is WAY, WAY below what it should be.
Good info Skyvalley but they will probably blame the drastic reduction of the Methow herd on everything but wolves I,m afraid, heck I saw a lot of camp robbers and crows this year, probably a study going on to pin it on them.. :twocents:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 01, 2017, 09:19:39 AM
The statewide management goals for deer are:
1. Preserve, protect, perpetuate, and manage deer and their habitat to ensure sustainable populations.
2. Manage deer for a variety of recreational, educational, and aesthetic purposes including hunting, scientific study, cultural, subsistence, and ceremonial uses by Native Americans, wildlife viewing, and photography.
3. Manage statewide deer populations for a sustainable annual harvest
Not accomplished
Post by: bigmacc on December 01, 2017, 09:35:28 AM
We everyone that knows anything about the Methow knows it can sustain WAY more deer than it does or has done. I didn't look up the States objective for the area but you cant tell me it has come anywhere close to what it can sustain. With that in mind the state should be able to address the predator situation weather it be Wolves, Cougars, Bears, Coyotes whatever it needs to wake up and address this.
Yes it can sustain more and did for many, many years. A lot of us remember that herd holding steady at around 30k to 40k and it wasn't that long ago, now its at most half of that and dropping fast.
Post by: HighlandLofts on December 04, 2017, 06:12:51 AM
You guys in that region can see first hand the damage that is taking place. You can see it better then some clown sitting in a office in Seattle.
Post by: Humptulips on December 05, 2017, 10:39:50 PM
Here in lies the problem:
WDFW is monitoring big game populations, predator-prey relationships, and hunter harvest closely. If any ungulate population falls 25 percent below its population objective for two consecutive years, and/or if hunter harvest decreases by 25 percent below the 10-year average harvest rate for two consecutive years, WDFW may consider reducing wolf abundance in affected areas, where applicable with federal law.As prescribed by the state’s Wolf Conservation and Management Plan, if wolf predation became a primary limiting factor for an “at risk” ungulate population in a wolf recovery region that had at least four successful breeding pairs of wolves, WDFW could consider reducing wolf abundance in the localized area. An “at risk” ungulate population is any federal or state listed species (Selkirk Mountain woodland caribou, Columbian white-tailed deer) or any ungulate population that falls 25 percent below its population objective for two consecutive years, and/or if hunter harvest decreases by 25 percent below the 10-year average harvest rate for two consecutive years.
Their population objective is WAY, WAY below what it should be.
All they have to do is reduce the population objective and voila, they can do as they want to.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 06, 2017, 05:37:04 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on December 06, 2017, 06:32:31 AM
Which needs scientific backing one would thinkIndeed. Remember though, lots of the folks here don't believe in science.
Post by: huntnphool on December 06, 2017, 06:42:10 AM
Which needs scientific backing one would thinkIndeed. Remember though, lots of the folks here don't believe in science.
When the results of "science" are directly related to the political views of the scientist......not so much.
I'll give you our current cougar "plan" as a example. ;)
Post by: bobcat on December 06, 2017, 08:08:07 AM
Post by: wolfbait on December 06, 2017, 11:41:44 AM
http://tomremington.com/tag/wolves/
Post by: Special T on December 06, 2017, 12:03:59 PM
The beurocracy is smothering everything.
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Post by: buckcanyonlodge on December 06, 2017, 05:44:55 PM
Here in lies the problem:
WDFW is monitoring big game populations, predator-prey relationships, and hunter harvest closely. If any ungulate population falls 25 percent below its population objective for two consecutive years, and/or if hunter harvest decreases by 25 percent below the 10-year average harvest rate for two consecutive years, WDFW may consider reducing wolf abundance in affected areas, where applicable with federal law.As prescribed by the state’s Wolf Conservation and Management Plan, if wolf predation became a primary limiting factor for an “at risk” ungulate population in a wolf recovery region that had at least four successful breeding pairs of wolves, WDFW could consider reducing wolf abundance in the localized area. An “at risk” ungulate population is any federal or state listed species (Selkirk Mountain woodland caribou, Columbian white-tailed deer) or any ungulate population that falls 25 percent below its population objective for two consecutive years, and/or if hunter harvest decreases by 25 percent below the 10-year average harvest rate for two consecutive years.
Their population objective is WAY, WAY below what it should be.
We’ll have to see the harvest numbers, but I bet the Methow is probably already there.
Any way to verify their numbers? ...Add a couple here ..a few there.. still no harvest decrease...Call me crazy but my tin foil hat says it might be possible. I'm working on a tin foil suit to go with my hat.
Post by: wolfbait on December 07, 2017, 09:01:03 AM
Here in lies the problem:
WDFW is monitoring big game populations, predator-prey relationships, and hunter harvest closely. If any ungulate population falls 25 percent below its population objective for two consecutive years, and/or if hunter harvest decreases by 25 percent below the 10-year average harvest rate for two consecutive years, WDFW may consider reducing wolf abundance in affected areas, where applicable with federal law.As prescribed by the state’s Wolf Conservation and Management Plan, if wolf predation became a primary limiting factor for an “at risk” ungulate population in a wolf recovery region that had at least four successful breeding pairs of wolves, WDFW could consider reducing wolf abundance in the localized area. An “at risk” ungulate population is any federal or state listed species (Selkirk Mountain woodland caribou, Columbian white-tailed deer) or any ungulate population that falls 25 percent below its population objective for two consecutive years, and/or if hunter harvest decreases by 25 percent below the 10-year average harvest rate for two consecutive years.
Their population objective is WAY, WAY below what it should be.
We’ll have to see the harvest numbers, but I bet the Methow is probably already there.
Any way to verify their numbers? ...Add a couple here ..a few there.. still no harvest decrease...Call me crazy but my tin foil hat says it might be possible. I'm working on a tin foil suit to go with my hat.
Might need a few more studies.....
Do We Really Need More Collaring To Know Predators Kill?
http://tomremington.com/2015/02/17/do-we-really-need-more-collaring-to-know-predators-kill/
Post by: HighlandLofts on December 07, 2017, 05:53:27 PM
If there are no wolves there then you can't shoot them right? Must be extra large coyotes.
Post by: boneaddict on December 08, 2017, 08:12:56 PM
https://www.kxly.com/news/local-news/wolves-do-not-appear-to-hurt-deer-elk-other-ungulates/669768596 (https://www.kxly.com/news/local-news/wolves-do-not-appear-to-hurt-deer-elk-other-ungulates/669768596)
Post by: ribka on December 08, 2017, 10:33:01 PM
Why I think they are idiots.....
https://www.kxly.com/news/local-news/wolves-do-not-appear-to-hurt-deer-elk-other-ungulates/669768596 (https://www.kxly.com/news/local-news/wolves-do-not-appear-to-hurt-deer-elk-other-ungulates/669768596)
x2
Post by: cle elum bowhunter on December 08, 2017, 10:51:11 PM
Post by: Romulus1297 on December 08, 2017, 11:26:35 PM
Post by: wolfbait on December 09, 2017, 03:37:25 AM
Why I think they are idiots.....
https://www.kxly.com/news/local-news/wolves-do-not-appear-to-hurt-deer-elk-other-ungulates/669768596 (https://www.kxly.com/news/local-news/wolves-do-not-appear-to-hurt-deer-elk-other-ungulates/669768596)
x2
And the madness continues, must have been quite the "study".
Post by: elkfins on December 21, 2017, 12:55:16 PM
Seriously, someone actually believed that enough to put it to print. I guess we can start to see where the former inhabitants of the Western State Mental Hospitol got employment. Freaking IDIOTS. We photographed fresh wolf tracks between Ardenvoir and Leavenworth during late archery, Roaring Ridge to be exact. But I'm sure they don't count either.
It's not that the people putting it to print believed it... it's that those people know that much of the general population will believe their BS propaganda and therefore, support their cause. Anyone can commission a "study" these days to support a specific political agenda or belief.
Post by: winshooter88 on December 21, 2017, 02:44:11 PM
Part of the problem is that they waited 5 years after the wolf recovery plan was approved to start putting together estimates of the number of existing ungulates, (deer, elk and moose), this is like closing the barn door after the horse is gone, the wolves have had all those years to reduce the number of prey species so now we won't be able to show proof that they have affected prey numbers in a negative way. Good job WDFW. :bdid:
Post by: HighlandLofts on December 22, 2017, 06:25:07 AM
Post by: Calvin Rayborn on December 28, 2017, 10:14:24 PM