Post by: huntnphool on January 26, 2018, 04:43:54 AM
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 26, 2018, 05:01:17 AM
It looks like the 209 will become legal in Washington. Are you going to be picking up a new muzzy, and if so which one?
Knight ultralight. Unless I can buy a kit to change my Northwest legal over. Even though I could save that for Idaho. Always a reason to buy a new gun. Will they still make it to where the cap is exposed?
Post by: Antlershed on January 26, 2018, 06:07:40 AM
Nope. The “Exposed to the Weather” language is struck out in the proposal.It looks like the 209 will become legal in Washington. Are you going to be picking up a new muzzy, and if so which one?
Knight ultralight. Unless I can buy a kit to change my Northwest legal over. Even though I could save that for Idaho. Always a reason to buy a new gun. Will they still make it to where the cap is exposed?
I have been waiting until after this all becomes set in stone before I buy a Muzzleloader.
Post by: trophyhunt on January 26, 2018, 06:12:49 AM
Post by: Antlershed on January 26, 2018, 06:55:38 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on January 26, 2018, 08:08:05 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 26, 2018, 08:16:27 AM
If it goes through I’ll be buying a 209 bolt and breech plug for my disc extreme.
I still don’t see any purpose for allowing them.
I am very against scopes for muzzys in wa.
Post by: Timberstalker on January 26, 2018, 08:29:45 AM
I’m guessing you guys already know but does the state classify 209 as percussion ignition? I don’t know how they classify them.
This was my exact question when I read the proposal.
Post by: Brushbuster on January 26, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on January 26, 2018, 08:39:45 AM
Post by: andersonjk4 on January 26, 2018, 08:47:08 AM
I’m guessing you guys already know but does the state classify 209 as percussion ignition? I don’t know how they classify them.
This was my exact question when I read the proposal.
I think they consider 209's a modern cartridge primer. That is why they had the last sentence in the regulation and specifically stated they were illegal. With the new regulation the just changed it from illegal to legal.
Post by: andersonjk4 on January 26, 2018, 08:48:55 AM
So if this goes through, we can have the muzzy’s that have the breech completely protected? Another question, are 209 primers that much better than a musket cap, and can my Thompson center xr.50 be converted to a 209??
I voted in support of the change, but in the comments I suggested they should clarify whether the intent is to keep the "exposed to the weather" requirements or strike it out.
Post by: KP-Skagit on January 26, 2018, 08:50:18 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 26, 2018, 08:57:05 AM
I don't think it is whether you define a 209 as a percussion ignition but rather the bit about primers used in modern cartridges being legal that is key.:yeah: It's not limiting to 209. Check out that newish Remington Long Range Muzzleloader. Only thing holding it back is not having a scope, but a good peep should be consistent to 300 yds.
https://www.remington.com/rifles/muzzleloading (https://www.remington.com/rifles/muzzleloading)
Post by: oldschool on January 26, 2018, 09:08:03 AM
Post by: jackelope on January 26, 2018, 09:11:22 AM
Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 26, 2018, 09:18:49 AM
Dangit there i go with the whole lack of reading comprehension thing again!I’m guessing you guys already know but does the state classify 209 as percussion ignition? I don’t know how they classify them.
This was my exact question when I read the proposal.
I think they consider 209's a modern cartridge primer. That is why they had the last sentence in the regulation and specifically stated they were illegal. With the new regulation the just changed it from illegal to legal.
I see words but sometimes they don’t be mean anything to me. Especially if they have more than 4 letters! :dunno:
That clears it up.
Post by: Timberstalker on January 26, 2018, 09:25:06 AM
That makes two of us.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 26, 2018, 09:28:52 AM
would the rem 700 be legal under new rules?as long as it is muzzleloading and meets the other WDFW requirements (bullet size)
the one in the link I posted would be. It can use the Federal 215M primers. Be interesting to see how many are overlooking clearcuts this fall.
Post by: huntnphool on January 26, 2018, 09:38:19 AM
I already have the 209 conversion kit with my Knight Disc Extreme & have used it on a New Mexico hunt so I would use them if legal in WA.
Same load used in both cases? If so, does it change your accuracy either way?
Post by: andersonjk4 on January 26, 2018, 09:39:13 AM
I would like to see the law left alone. It's supposed to be a primitive season.
Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.
Part of me feels the same way. I would be all for keeping the laws the same, but it seems like percussion cap manufacturing is fading away. You can't really find a good quality musket cap without looking to Germany. And those can be hard to come by. I feel like percussion caps would continue to fade away with most every state (except a few western states) making 209's legal.
Post by: bobcat on January 26, 2018, 09:48:28 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on January 26, 2018, 09:51:51 AM
I can convert my CVA Optima to shoot 209's for $40. I need two things, a new breech plug ($30) and a new firing pin set ($10). So I'll be doing that, and switching to Blackhorn 209 powder. Only problem is I didn't really plan to hunt with my muzzleloader this year. Might have to reconsider.
Make sure you get the right plug... you need the BH plug not the one that comes standard in a CVA
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 26, 2018, 09:56:32 AM
I would like to see the law left alone. It's supposed to be a primitive season.
Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.
Do you muzzleload?
Post by: jackelope on January 26, 2018, 10:11:56 AM
I would like to see the law left alone. It's supposed to be a primitive season.
Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.
Do you muzzleload?
I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
Post by: CP on January 26, 2018, 10:13:19 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 26, 2018, 10:28:31 AM
But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle. And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day. The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.I would like to see the law left alone. It's supposed to be a primitive season.
Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.
Do you muzzleload?
I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
Post by: gutsnthegrass on January 26, 2018, 02:32:33 PM
Post by: Brushbuster on January 26, 2018, 03:21:44 PM
I already have the 209 conversion kit with my Knight Disc Extreme & have used it on a New Mexico hunt so I would use them if legal in WA.
Same load used in both cases? If so, does it change your accuracy either way?
Can't remember load for sure but also used Blackhorn 209 powder with the 209a Federal shotshell primer. I switched out the breech plug along with the bolt for the muzzy. I also had a scope mounted for the hunt.
One advantage was less fowling using the 209 powder and less reload time skipping the patching on followup shots. I did use the same 290 grain ez load bullets.
Post by: HookedOnQuack on January 26, 2018, 03:45:15 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on January 26, 2018, 04:23:30 PM
I have a western disc extreme. What all do I need to make it 209? I assume you would be able to go through Knight?
You will need a bolt housing and breech plug. Breech Plug has to be one for a DISC not the Mountaineer. The bolt housing you get from Knight will have primer rails on the face of the bolt. You will slide the primer in those rails then close the bolt to insert the primer into the breech plug...
The top bolt shown in this picture is the old style bolt with a primer adapter installed. Knight no longer sales this part.
(https://s26.postimg.org/r2ju6y5h5/3_Knightbolts.jpg)
This is the way it all use to go together - this is what is called the 'bare primer system'
(https://s26.postimg.org/ucx69ukvt/Composite2.jpg)
This picture shows the new bolt setup. It shows the primer rails on the face of the bolt and pic with the primer in the rails. This is the 'bare primer setup.
(https://s26.postimg.org/jw2en2wc9/Mount_Bolt_Nose.jpg)
Knight also offers a FJP system with a a primer insterted in a red plastic jacket and the assembly is dropped in to the opening on the bolt.
(https://s26.postimg.org/62fufzn09/P1010018-1.jpg)
Post by: jackelope on January 26, 2018, 09:11:17 PM
You’ll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. That’s the breaks.But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle. And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day. The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.I would like to see the law left alone. It's supposed to be a primitive season.
Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.
Do you muzzleload?
I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 27, 2018, 09:50:05 AM
Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern? With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December. Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.You’ll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. That’s the breaks.But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle. And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day. The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.I would like to see the law left alone. It's supposed to be a primitive season.
Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.
Do you muzzleload?
I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
Post by: Sabotloader on January 27, 2018, 11:03:36 AM
So if this goes through, we can have the muzzy’s that have the breech completely protected? Another question, are 209 primers that much better than a musket cap, and can my Thompson center xr.50 be converted to a 209??
It can be converted - but it would still have a dirty breech area and to honest I would stay with cap ignition in that rifle - BUT I would quickly switch away from a Musket Cap to a #11 Mag cap or better yet the RWS Dynamit Noble 1075+ cap. The #11 Mag cap burns in the same heat range as does the Musket and way hotter than the new Re-Enactment Musket Caps. The 1075+ German cap is even hotter than the CCI #11 Mag.
http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=03403
Post by: trophyhunt on January 27, 2018, 11:16:55 AM
I was hoping you'd chime in on this thread, thank you.So if this goes through, we can have the muzzy’s that have the breech completely protected? Another question, are 209 primers that much better than a musket cap, and can my Thompson center xr.50 be converted to a 209??
It can be converted - but it would still have a dirty breech area and to honest I would stay with cap ignition in that rifle - BUT I would quickly switch away from a Musket Cap to a #11 Mag cap or better yet the RWS Dynamit Noble 1075+ cap. The #11 Mag cap burns in the same heat range as does the Musket and way hotter than the new Re-Enactment Musket Caps. The 1075+ German cap is even hotter than the CCI #11 Mag.
http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=03403
Post by: bobcat on January 27, 2018, 12:35:19 PM
Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern? With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December. Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.You’ll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. That’s the breaks.But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle. And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day. The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.I would like to see the law left alone. It's supposed to be a primitive season.
Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.
Do you muzzleload?
I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
It's still a single shot with open sights, which at least for me means I'm not shooting further than about 120 yards.
Post by: buglebrush on January 27, 2018, 12:56:50 PM
Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern? With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December. Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.You’ll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. That’s the breaks.But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle. And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day. The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.I would like to see the law left alone. It's supposed to be a primitive season.
Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.
Do you muzzleload?
I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
It's still a single shot with open sights, which at least for me means I'm not shooting further than about 120 yards.
Huge huge difference between a Muzzy and Modern. I can't take anyone seriously who says otherwise. :sry:
In the rainforests I hunt I've had misfires cost me two bulls, and yes I do all the correct things to prevent that from happening. It can and probably will still happen, but you have a more reasonable expectation of your gun firing which with how hard it is to get a shot opportunity, that is a very good thing. I'm totally for this even though I'm predominantly an archery hunter.
Post by: jackelope on January 27, 2018, 01:09:58 PM
Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern? With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December. Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.You’ll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. That’s the breaks.But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle. And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day. The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.I would like to see the law left alone. It's supposed to be a primitive season.
Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.
Do you muzzleload?
I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
It's still a single shot with open sights, which at least for me means I'm not shooting further than about 120 yards.
Huge huge difference between a Muzzy and Modern. I can't take anyone seriously who says otherwise. :sry:
In the rainforests I hunt I've had misfires cost me two bulls, and yes I do all the correct things to prevent that from happening. It can and probably will still happen, but you have a more reasonable expectation of your gun firing which with how hard it is to get a shot opportunity, that is a very good thing. I'm totally for this even though I'm predominantly an archery hunter.
But you're hunting with old school caps that are exposed to the elements. This is apples and oranges when compared to sealed 209 ignition.
Post by: buglebrush on January 27, 2018, 01:19:14 PM
Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern? With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December. Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.You’ll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. That’s the breaks.But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle. And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day. The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.I would like to see the law left alone. It's supposed to be a primitive season.
Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.
Do you muzzleload?
I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
It's still a single shot with open sights, which at least for me means I'm not shooting further than about 120 yards.
Huge huge difference between a Muzzy and Modern. I can't take anyone seriously who says otherwise. :sry:
In the rainforests I hunt I've had misfires cost me two bulls, and yes I do all the correct things to prevent that from happening. It can and probably will still happen, but you have a more reasonable expectation of your gun firing which with how hard it is to get a shot opportunity, that is a very good thing. I'm totally for this even though I'm predominantly an archery hunter.
But you're hunting with old school caps that are exposed to the elements. This is apples and oranges when compared to sealed 209 ignition.
My comment regarding the huge huge difference between a muzzy and modern had nothing to do with ignition. My second paragraph is why I am for 209, but the vast difference between muzzy and Modern has very very little to do with that.
I can consistently and comfortably hit a deer at 700+ yards with my modern, but wouldn't attempt much over 100 yards with my muzzy. Enormous difference. Now, you may hunt with an open sighted lever gun, but that's your choice. You could also hunt modern season with a long-bow, but that's up to you. I stand by my statement regarding Muzzy being vastly inferior to Modern.
Post by: Sabotloader on January 27, 2018, 02:08:19 PM
Quote
jackelope
But you're hunting with old school caps that are exposed to the elements in inclement weather. This is apples and oranges when compared to sealed 209 ignition.
But what ML hunter in the northwest even leaves the caps exposed to the elements. Not even the real old timers did that! The rule says that the manufacturer can not provide a part on the rifle that covers your cap and ignitions elements - that does not mean that you can't protect the the breech and it is really so easy...
One way that I have used in the past is simply wrap the breech area
(https://s26.postimg.org/qk5uor5fd/Wrap_the_Breech.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.org/5oms54jsp/capwrap.jpg)
Another way is to choose the correct nipple fit... well you can do do this with a #11 cap not so much much with a Musket Cap
(https://s26.postimg.org/3tsh7614p/TOW_11_Nipple.jpg)
This a test I conducted to test my theory...
(https://s26.postimg.org/f7qt27y0p/Knight_Red_Hot_Cap_Fit.jpg)
Another thougt to share - not all 209 ignition systems are water/weather proof - in fact many of them will leak...
Just changing the ignition system and yet complying with the other rules of the PacNorWest do not make the 209 inline anymore effective than any of my TC Renegades...
What I can do do with this rifle.... with a 209 ignition
(https://s26.postimg.org/55zgjluft/Knight_DISC_Extreme_-_Western.jpg)
I can also do with this rifle...
(https://s26.postimg.org/yawchefnd/50_cal_Renegade.jpg[img]
[img]https://s26.postimg.org/r8yev7c1l/17-05-21_230.jpg)
Post by: SuperX on January 27, 2018, 04:38:28 PM
Post by: steeleywhopper on January 27, 2018, 05:55:46 PM
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 27, 2018, 06:17:42 PM
My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, I’m sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. I’m all for another ignition option personally.
Funny all these guys who don’t muzzleload trying to claim it’s like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.
Post by: hunter399 on January 27, 2018, 06:34:10 PM
I will admit I was not for 209 primers,i do hunt modern most years lately due to taking kids on first hunting trips past few years.The new remington muzzle loader 300 yards is not primitive weapon or short range at all,But remember in the next few years if harvest numbers go way high on muzzle loaders,you may feel the effects of modern technology as in,My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, I’m sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. I’m all for another ignition option personally.
Funny all these guys who don’t muzzleload trying to claim it’s like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.
Reduced seasons
Reduced permits
Less opportunities
And other regulations,and seasons to control harvest numbers .
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 27, 2018, 06:54:51 PM
I do muzzy with .54 sidelock great plains rifle. Take a look at that Remington Ultimate Muzzleloader. It has 2400 fps muzzle velocity with a 250 gr bullet, that's close to .35 Whelen. The muzzleloader doesn't have the BC to keep up with the Whelen. It starts off better than a lot of other popular rifles.My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, I’m sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. I’m all for another ignition option personally.
Funny all these guys who don’t muzzleload trying to claim it’s like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 27, 2018, 07:09:02 PM
I will admit I was not for 209 primers,i do hunt modern most years lately due to taking kids on first hunting trips past few years.The new remington muzzle loader 300 yards is not primitive weapon or short range at all,But remember in the next few years if harvest numbers go way high on muzzle loaders,you may feel the effects of modern technology as in,My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, I’m sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. I’m all for another ignition option personally.
Funny all these guys who don’t muzzleload trying to claim it’s like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.
Reduced seasons
Reduced permits
Less opportunities
And other regulations,and seasons to control harvest numbers .
Ya well you will feel all of those effects with the amount of predators roaming around too and everyone can point fingers. I highly doubt a 209 primer is going to increase harvest success a substantial amount. Probably not even noticeable. Besides maybe more people switching over out of curiousity. We saw an EQUAL amount of cougars as elk this year archery hunting 356. 3 elk total and 3 cougars in 5 days. Not one deer. Many many miles covered and glassed. William Douglas wilderness area mostly.
Post by: GoldenRing270 on January 27, 2018, 07:19:37 PM
Post by: hunter399 on January 27, 2018, 07:33:26 PM
When they do decide to reduce harvest there gonna say to protect populations from over harvest,not because of ignition.I will admit I was not for 209 primers,i do hunt modern most years lately due to taking kids on first hunting trips past few years.The new remington muzzle loader 300 yards is not primitive weapon or short range at all,But remember in the next few years if harvest numbers go way high on muzzle loaders,you may feel the effects of modern technology as in,My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, I’m sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. I’m all for another ignition option personally.
Funny all these guys who don’t muzzleload trying to claim it’s like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.
Reduced seasons
Reduced permits
Less opportunities
And other regulations,and seasons to control harvest numbers .
Ya well you will feel all of those effects with the amount of predators roaming around too and everyone can point fingers. I highly doubt a 209 primer is going to increase harvest success a substantial amount. Probably not even noticeable. Besides maybe more people switching over out of curiousity. We saw an EQUAL amount of cougars as elk this year archery hunting 356. 3 elk total and 3 cougars in 5 days. Not one deer. Many many miles covered and glassed. William Douglas wilderness area mostly.
I'm happy to see sportsmen win a battle for the better good of the sport. :tup:
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 27, 2018, 08:25:13 PM
I would like it to stay the way it is and I hunt with a muzzy on the westside. If we allow 209's then whats next? Scopes? Closed breech? There is a lot of long range muzzleloader talk these days with the new Remington being introduced. Say the 209's become legal then 5 years from now scopes are legal and guys are taking deer at 300 yards. Why would a muzzleloader hunter deserve to get the first crack at deer. At that point they may just lump muzzy and modern hunters together for a mid October 14 day season. I like it the way it is. If it is dumping rain I've got electrical tape over my muzzle and breech. It hasn't failed me yet but if and when it ever does that is part of the muzzleloader hunters challenge and that is part of the reason muzzleloaders get to be the first weapons that go bang in the woods.
I don’t think it’s legal to cover your breech... but I’m not 100% on that.
Post by: GoldenRing270 on January 27, 2018, 09:14:46 PM
Post by: jamesfromseattle on January 27, 2018, 09:51:21 PM
I would like it to stay the way it is and I hunt with a muzzy on the westside. If we allow 209's then whats next? Scopes? Closed breech? There is a lot of long range muzzleloader talk these days with the new Remington being introduced. Say the 209's become legal then 5 years from now scopes are legal and guys are taking deer at 300 yards. Why would a muzzleloader hunter deserve to get the first crack at deer. At that point they may just lump muzzy and modern hunters together for a mid October 14 day season. I like it the way it is. If it is dumping rain I've got electrical tape over my muzzle and breech. It hasn't failed me yet but if and when it ever does that is part of the muzzleloader hunters challenge and that is part of the reason muzzleloaders get to be the first weapons that go bang in the woods.
I think the new proposed regs does away with the open breech/exposes to the elements thing, right?
Post by: duckmen1 on January 27, 2018, 10:32:04 PM
I would like it to stay the way it is and I hunt with a muzzy on the westside. If we allow 209's then whats next? Scopes? Closed breech? There is a lot of long range muzzleloader talk these days with the new Remington being introduced. Say the 209's become legal then 5 years from now scopes are legal and guys are taking deer at 300 yards. Why would a muzzleloader hunter deserve to get the first crack at deer. At that point they may just lump muzzy and modern hunters together for a mid October 14 day season. I like it the way it is. If it is dumping rain I've got electrical tape over my muzzle and breech. It hasn't failed me yet but if and when it ever does that is part of the muzzleloader hunters challenge and that is part of the reason muzzleloaders get to be the first weapons that go bang in the woods.
I think the new proposed regs does away with the open breech/exposes to the elements thing, right?
Thats the way i read it yes.
Post by: jackelope on January 27, 2018, 11:05:04 PM
My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, I’m sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. I’m all for another ignition option personally.
Funny all these guys who don’t muzzleload trying to claim it’s like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.
All I’m saying is that it’s supposed to be a primitive season. Like the others said, what’s next? Remington Ultimate Muzzleloaders scoped? Maybe while we’re at it we should put laser sights on our bows or make crossbows legal for everyone during archery season. I have only ever bowhunted elk so don’t pull the “guys that don’t bow hunt” card on me.
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 27, 2018, 11:53:00 PM
My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, I’m sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. I’m all for another ignition option personally.
Funny all these guys who don’t muzzleload trying to claim it’s like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.
All I’m saying is that it’s supposed to be a primitive season. Like the others said, what’s next? Remington Ultimate Muzzleloaders scoped? Maybe while we’re at it we should put laser sights on our bows or make crossbows legal for everyone during archery season. I have only ever bowhunted elk so don’t pull the “guys that don’t bow hunt” card on me.
I didn’t mean to specifically call you out about it, but I do understand your concern because I don’t agree with the scopes either. Laser sights on a bow aren’t a bad idea. New proposal for 2020? :chuckle:
Post by: BigGoonTuna on January 28, 2018, 04:26:21 AM
i'm fine with 209 caps, but leave scopes off limits. i doubt it will extend the range of anyone's rifle, but it will at least widen the variety of rifles that one could use without having a "special edition" northwest gun. i know i probably won't go running to convert my rifle to 209 ignition, #11 mag caps have always worked great for me. open sights and a single shot are the handicap in my opinion. i think there's a reason they don't call it a "primitive" season here, and that seems to rub the hardcore sidelock fanatics (and recurve guys in archery) the wrong way. other states only allow flintlocks, on the other end of the spectrum, you've got states that allow single shots with straight wall cartridges in their "primitive" seaons.
Post by: Sabotloader on January 28, 2018, 07:50:17 AM
My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, I’m sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. I’m all for another ignition option personally.
Funny all these guys who don’t muzzleload trying to claim it’s like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.
All I’m saying is that it’s supposed to be a primitive season. Like the others said, what’s next? Remington Ultimate Muzzleloaders scoped? Maybe while we’re at it we should put laser sights on our bows or make crossbows legal for everyone during archery season. I have only ever bowhunted elk so don’t pull the “guys that don’t bow hunt” card on me.
Where in the regulations is it called a 'Primitive Season"? When the ML seasons first started most were considered 'Primitive' hunts arranged and organized by traditionalists.
Long ago they progressed from that when the different fish and game departments recognized the value of them as Management Hunts. They have and are using the hunts as a tool to reach the goals that wildlife biologists have set for individual areas and in most instances now as method to get a limited harvest and gain a revenue source.
Maintaining the current sight rules and the fact that you have one shot will still maintain the lower harvest rates. There will be possibly an increase in the number in the field for a short period of time while the novelty of the 209 first starts but it will level out. There are many other ML rifles out there other than the Remington that can reach to 300+ but the normal hunter without a optics will not find the ability to do that.
Another thought for the 300 yard people - do you not think that a primitive ML of the 1860's in the hands of the right person could not harvest an animal at 300+ yards. I can not for sure, but look up some the longest shots made with sidelock and see what they are especially in the age of the big lead conicals..
Post by: GoldenRing270 on January 28, 2018, 08:35:36 AM
Post by: buglebrush on January 28, 2018, 09:03:54 AM
I'll wager $50 to any takers that you can't consistently hit a 6" Target at 300 yards with your open sighted muzzy. It's BS and downright dishonesty to pretend you can.
Post by: floatinghat on January 28, 2018, 09:06:01 AM
Another thought for the 300 yard people - do you not think that a primitive ML of the 1860's in the hands of the right person could not harvest an animal at 300+ yards. I can not for sure, but look up some the longest shots made with sidelock and see what they are especially in the age of the big lead conicals..
100% agree and I am concerned that too many over estimate their ability to shoot long range (open sights or scoped). Many older muzzys have the ability to accurately rainbow out a big chunk of lead a long distance. Some of the new LR muzzy's have the trajectory too no longer rainbow a lighter bullet backed by 200gr of powder, it will happen.
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 28, 2018, 09:18:04 AM
I'm sure there are many people capable of shooting an iron sight ML 300 yards but that's not the point. Don't go fixing something that's not broken. Allowing 209's only sets the stage for the addition of scopes which leads to more hunters and greater harvest where long range shots become the norm. This inevitably leads to a more limited ML hunting opportunity and ML hunters already get the short end of the stick as it is. I would support a push for more ML special permit opportunities but keep the weapons as they are.
The argument could be made that the more people that get into muzzy hunting the better the opportunity would be.
Post by: GoldenRing270 on January 28, 2018, 09:31:46 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 28, 2018, 09:39:13 AM
Possible that it could benefit; but with WDFW it might not work out well. They offer 'opportunity' a lot at times when something isn't really more favorable to the user. Opportunity to hunt vs opportunity to kill. Suppose they added a week to early muzzy season, but moved the start to open a week later. You now get twice the opportunity. Blacktail modern is kind of a good example--they could open it in mid September and run to Halloween, but how many would trade that extra month and the first ten days of the normal season to get five or six days in the beginning of November?I'm sure there are many people capable of shooting an iron sight ML 300 yards but that's not the point. Don't go fixing something that's not broken. Allowing 209's only sets the stage for the addition of scopes which leads to more hunters and greater harvest where long range shots become the norm. This inevitably leads to a more limited ML hunting opportunity and ML hunters already get the short end of the stick as it is. I would support a push for more ML special permit opportunities but keep the weapons as they are.
The argument could be made that the more people that get into muzzy hunting the better the opportunity would be.
Post by: jackelope on January 28, 2018, 11:58:18 AM
Post by: pd on January 28, 2018, 08:46:40 PM
I have only ever hunted elk with a bow and a rifle. I have never shot a muzzleloader, do not own one. Currently have no intention to purchase one. But if the 209 primers become legal, then do as you please, it would not bother me.
A hunting partner of mine (a muzzleloader) is very opposed to the 209s. I respect his opinion. But, personally, I don't really care.
Post by: andersonjk4 on January 29, 2018, 11:16:09 AM
First, the "primitive weapon" issue. I don't think the ML seasons are supposed to be primitive season at all. They may have started out many many years ago as such, but I think that went away the day they allowed inline guns and not just side lock. However, I do believe the WDFW sees ML season, as well as archery, as a less efficient weapon choice in relation to modern firearm. In this sense they can expand hunting opportunity into periods where animals may be more vulnerable, but still not risk over harvest. This works great in Washington because it spreads hunters out into multiple seasons which helps to alleviate some of the crowdedness. I feel this is the same for archery as well.
Then I asked myself, "will using 209 primers make ML hunting more efficient? This leads to the question what really are the benefits of 209 primers over percussion caps (and we can lump in the change to a sealed breech)? To me the big benefit is reliability of ignition. The current line up of inline muzzle loaders have all but solved reliably issues with percussion caps. Fail to fires and hang fires are almost a thing of the past as long as the user does their part to keep things cleaned and properly installed. Also, the current manufacturers have really been skirting the "open breech" regulations by offering legal conversions that have tiny little windows open to the weather. So in my opinion reliability of ignition is improved a little but not drastically.
So now the big one... 209 primers are way hotter and will basically turn all our muzzle loaders into magnum rifles (okay a little dramatic, but it seams like this is the sentiment coming from some people). I was a little worried about this at first too. So I looked at some data and crunched some numbers. Here is what I found. Most of the current ML rifles (excluding the new Remington 700 ML and similar) publish max load rating of 150 grain equivalents. The new Remington 700 ML is claiming with a magnum rifle primer they can reliably ignite 200 grain equivalent. Most data I could find of 150 grain 777 loads with a 250 grain bullet were right around 2000 fps. Remington is claiming 2,400 fps out of their new 700ML. That is a 20% increase in velocity. That is fairly significant, but put it in the context of other weapons. Would archery guys be against technology that increased arrow speeds from 280 fps to 336 fps? How about 350 fps to 420 fps? Lets look at the change in ballistics from 2000 fps to 2400 fps (see ballistic tables below). With a 100 yard zero both loads are pretty much a single point of aim out to 150 yards. At 150 yards: 2000 fps load will be 4.23" low and the 2400 fps load will be 2.79" low. Pretty much a wash if you as me. Now for the guys who can accurately shoot with open sights beyond 150 yards (for full disclosure 150 is my absolute max if conditions are perfect) consider this:
2000fps load: 2400fps load:
200yd = -12.7" 225yd = -12.3"
250yd = -25.7" 275yd = -22.81"
Basically you are "gaining" about 25 yards if you are looking at drops.
Again, in my opinion, this is really a negligible difference when you are factoring in the use of open sights.
As far as modern primer use being the 'gateway drug' to allowing scopes on ML's. I think it may open up some more discussions of it, but ultimately I don't think it will directly result in any more changes to the ML regulations.
So then, why even make the change if performance isn't greatly affected. My argument, and the main reason I am for the change, comes down to equipment availability and equipment options. The ML industry is fully geared toward the use of 209 primers and may be moving to modern rifle primers. Other than side lock rifles, I don't know a current model of inline ML that was fully designed to use percussion caps. They are all designed around 209's and then conversions are applied to make them Western compliant. Instead of 3 manufacturers with a handful of models from each to choose from it will open up essentially the entire ML market to us. And percussion cap manufacturing is much the same. The consensus "best" musket cap on the market isn't even made in the US, we have to look to Germany to get those. I think this will be a good thing for smokepole shooters and like Sabotloader said earlier, it may result in a slight uptick in users, but I think it will be short lived. I think open sights is the limiting factor, not ignition type. That is why I will oppose making scopes legal, but welcome this change.
Post by: Sabotloader on January 29, 2018, 11:32:02 AM
Post by: James on January 29, 2018, 11:45:45 AM
In my mind, hunting/fishing and wildlife/fish conservation needs to be viewed from the efficacy/opportunity ratio.
If there are a given number of animals/fish that are considered a sustainable harvest, given the efficacy of the method (days to kill), number of people participating for how long you can get your season. There is always a balance; some fishermen would rather fish catch and release every weekend all year instead of having a harvest season a few months long. Same goes for extended archery seasons vs modern rifle.
With this change, more animals will die every day in the ML season from the increase in efficacy. So my question is where are they coming from? Are we claiming ML hunters are not hitting their target harvest or have populations rebounded and there is more harvest? Maybe they want to shorten the season.
Post by: headshot5 on January 29, 2018, 11:50:09 AM
Quote
I think open sights is the limiting factor, not ignition type. That is why I will oppose making scopes legal, but welcome this change.
:yeah:
Post by: buglebrush on January 29, 2018, 11:54:20 AM
QuoteI think open sights is the limiting factor, not ignition type. That is why I will oppose making scopes legal, but welcome this change.
:yeah:
:yeah: x10
Post by: andersonjk4 on January 29, 2018, 12:03:12 PM
I think you guys are approaching this from the wrong direction.
In my mind, hunting/fishing and wildlife/fish conservation needs to be viewed from the efficacy/opportunity ratio.
If there are a given number of animals/fish that are considered a sustainable harvest, given the efficacy of the method (days to kill), number of people participating for how long you can get your season. There is always a balance; some fishermen would rather fish catch and release every weekend all year instead of having a harvest season a few months long. Same goes for extended archery seasons vs modern rifle.
With this change, more animals will die every day in the ML season from the increase in efficacy. So my question is where are they coming from? Are we claiming ML hunters are not hitting their target harvest or have populations rebounded and there is more harvest? Maybe they want to shorten the season.
What about the change to 209 primers (or modern cartridge primers) do you think is increasing the efficacy of muzzle loader hunting?
Post by: SuperX on January 29, 2018, 12:15:13 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 29, 2018, 12:17:48 PM
I also agree that the open sites are the limiting factor. And strongly oppose anything more than the current sights being allowed.
Now does anyone want to buy me the conversion for my disc? :chuckle:
Post by: James on January 29, 2018, 12:18:58 PM
What about the change to 209 primers (or modern cartridge primers) do you think is increasing the efficacy of muzzle loader hunting?
I would expect the number of misfires and hunter days to be reduced, with an increase in overall harvest.
Post by: andersonjk4 on January 29, 2018, 12:26:36 PM
What about the change to 209 primers (or modern cartridge primers) do you think is increasing the efficacy of muzzle loader hunting?
I would expect the number of misfires and hunter days to be reduced, with an increase in overall harvest.
While I agree that this could happen. I think the increase will essentially be negligible. How many people each year do not harvest an animal purely because of a failed cap or hang fire? I'm sure it happens, but not enough to create a noticeable difference in harvest statistics. And in the case of reduced hang fires, one could argue it will help reduce the number of wounded critters.
Post by: CP on January 29, 2018, 12:33:48 PM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,219077.0.html
The OP of this thread is asking, now that it looks like the decision has been made " Are you going to be picking up a new muzzy, and if so which one?"
Too bad it has reverted back to the old argument.
:beatdeadhorse:
Embrace the change.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 29, 2018, 12:44:58 PM
In the end, the more trouble-free we make it, the more hunters will move to ML, the higher the harvest numbers will be, the fewer days ML season will last.It could also be argued that if more modern hunters switched to muzzy that the muzzy hunters would have a better seat at the table when it comes to seasons and permits.
Post by: SuperX on January 29, 2018, 03:05:34 PM
In the end, the more trouble-free we make it, the more hunters will move to ML, the higher the harvest numbers will be, the fewer days ML season will last.It could also be argued that if more modern hunters switched to muzzy that the muzzy hunters would have a better seat at the table when it comes to seasons and permits.
nothing really points to this resulting in more days, rather the opposite. Having a larger hunter base makes every efficiency improvement more impactful, and having a large number of hunters increases the risk that a better than expected year could damage recovery. My $.02
Post by: floatinghat on January 29, 2018, 03:10:08 PM
In the end, the more trouble-free we make it, the more hunters will move to ML, the higher the harvest numbers will be, the fewer days ML season will last.It could also be argued that if more modern hunters switched to muzzy that the muzzy hunters would have a better seat at the table when it comes to seasons and permits.
While that could be argued, more hunters move to muzzy and they change (eliminate the late) the season, require hunter orange, etc. I guess from my perspective, I don't trust our WDFW to do what is in our best interest, I don't think this change is needed, I believe it will degrade the experience long term. Just my opinions and like everyone I have an AH as well.
Post by: Sabotloader on January 29, 2018, 04:21:46 PM
In the end, the more trouble-free we make it, the more hunters will move to ML, the higher the harvest numbers will be, the fewer days ML season will last.It could also be argued that if more modern hunters switched to muzzy that the muzzy hunters would have a better seat at the table when it comes to seasons and permits.
While that could be argued, more hunters move to muzzy and they change (eliminate the late) the season, require hunter orange, etc. I guess from my perspective, I don't trust our WDFW to do what is in our best interest, I don't think this change is needed, I believe it will degrade the experience long term. Just my opinions and like everyone I have an AH as well.
Just so you know there is a conversion for the A&H - but if you are shooting #11's now there isn't a real advantage... IMO
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 29, 2018, 04:32:21 PM
In the end, the more trouble-free we make it, the more hunters will move to ML, the higher the harvest numbers will be, the fewer days ML season will last.It could also be argued that if more modern hunters switched to muzzy that the muzzy hunters would have a better seat at the table when it comes to seasons and permits.
While that could be argued, more hunters move to muzzy and they change (eliminate the late) the season, require hunter orange, etc. I guess from my perspective, I don't trust our WDFW to do what is in our best interest, I don't think this change is needed, I believe it will degrade the experience long term. Just my opinions and like everyone I have an AH as well.
Just so you know there is a conversion for the A&H - but if you are shooting #11's now there isn't a real advantage... IMO
Are 209s more weather proof?
Post by: carlyoungs on January 29, 2018, 05:23:36 PM
In the end, the more trouble-free we make it, the more hunters will move to ML, the higher the harvest numbers will be, the fewer days ML season will last.It could also be argued that if more modern hunters switched to muzzy that the muzzy hunters would have a better seat at the table when it comes to seasons and permits.
While that could be argued, more hunters move to muzzy and they change (eliminate the late) the season, require hunter orange, etc. I guess from my perspective, I don't trust our WDFW to do what is in our best interest, I don't think this change is needed, I believe it will degrade the experience long term. Just my opinions and like everyone I have an AH as well.
Just so you know there is a conversion for the A&H - but if you are shooting #11's now there isn't a real advantage... IMO
Are 209s more weather proof?
This is a great topic and enjoy reading both sides. The way I read his post was everyone has an opinion just like everyone has an A Hole. What is the a&h you are talking about Sabotloader? I know nothing about mls.
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 29, 2018, 05:25:28 PM
In the end, the more trouble-free we make it, the more hunters will move to ML, the higher the harvest numbers will be, the fewer days ML season will last.It could also be argued that if more modern hunters switched to muzzy that the muzzy hunters would have a better seat at the table when it comes to seasons and permits.
While that could be argued, more hunters move to muzzy and they change (eliminate the late) the season, require hunter orange, etc. I guess from my perspective, I don't trust our WDFW to do what is in our best interest, I don't think this change is needed, I believe it will degrade the experience long term. Just my opinions and like everyone I have an AH as well.
Just so you know there is a conversion for the A&H - but if you are shooting #11's now there isn't a real advantage... IMO
Are 209s more weather proof?
This is a great topic and enjoy reading both sides. The way I read his post was everyone has an opinion just like everyone has an A Hole. What is the a&h you are talking about Sabotloader? I know nothing about mls.
Girls don’t do that
Post by: jackelope on January 29, 2018, 05:50:56 PM
In the end, the more trouble-free we make it, the more hunters will move to ML, the higher the harvest numbers will be, the fewer days ML season will last.It could also be argued that if more modern hunters switched to muzzy that the muzzy hunters would have a better seat at the table when it comes to seasons and permits.
While that could be argued, more hunters move to muzzy and they change (eliminate the late) the season, require hunter orange, etc. I guess from my perspective, I don't trust our WDFW to do what is in our best interest, I don't think this change is needed, I believe it will degrade the experience long term. Just my opinions and like everyone I have an AH as well.
Just so you know there is a conversion for the A&H - but if you are shooting #11's now there isn't a real advantage... IMO
Are 209s more weather proof?
This is a great topic and enjoy reading both sides. The way I read his post was everyone has an opinion just like everyone has an A Hole. What is the a&h you are talking about Sabotloader? I know nothing about mls.
Austin and Halleck.
Post by: Sabotloader on January 29, 2018, 06:07:54 PM
In the end, the more trouble-free we make it, the more hunters will move to ML, the higher the harvest numbers will be, the fewer days ML season will last.It could also be argued that if more modern hunters switched to muzzy that the muzzy hunters would have a better seat at the table when it comes to seasons and permits.
While that could be argued, more hunters move to muzzy and they change (eliminate the late) the season, require hunter orange, etc. I guess from my perspective, I don't trust our WDFW to do what is in our best interest, I don't think this change is needed, I believe it will degrade the experience long term. Just my opinions and like everyone I have an AH as well.
Just so you know there is a conversion for the A&H - but if you are shooting #11's now there isn't a real advantage... IMO
Are 209s more weather proof?
The primers themselves are water proof - but that does not mean your breech is water proof. Water and water vapor can get by the primer in the breech plug primer pocket - unless you have zero head space in the breech plug.
Post by: buglebrush on January 29, 2018, 06:11:03 PM
In the end, the more trouble-free we make it, the more hunters will move to ML, the higher the harvest numbers will be, the fewer days ML season will last.It could also be argued that if more modern hunters switched to muzzy that the muzzy hunters would have a better seat at the table when it comes to seasons and permits.
While that could be argued, more hunters move to muzzy and they change (eliminate the late) the season, require hunter orange, etc. I guess from my perspective, I don't trust our WDFW to do what is in our best interest, I don't think this change is needed, I believe it will degrade the experience long term. Just my opinions and like everyone I have an AH as well.
Just so you know there is a conversion for the A&H - but if you are shooting #11's now there isn't a real advantage... IMO
Are 209s more weather proof?
The primers themselves are water proof - but that does not mean your breech is water proof. Water and water vapor can pet by the prime in the breech plug unless you have zero head space in the breech plug.
The reason 209 is more waterproof is that I can seal it in so much better with nail polish. Really hard to do this effectively with Musket Caps.
Post by: Sabotloader on January 29, 2018, 06:12:08 PM
In the end, the more trouble-free we make it, the more hunters will move to ML, the higher the harvest numbers will be, the fewer days ML season will last.It could also be argued that if more modern hunters switched to muzzy that the muzzy hunters would have a better seat at the table when it comes to seasons and permits.
While that could be argued, more hunters move to muzzy and they change (eliminate the late) the season, require hunter orange, etc. I guess from my perspective, I don't trust our WDFW to do what is in our best interest, I don't think this change is needed, I believe it will degrade the experience long term. Just my opinions and like everyone I have an AH as well.
Just so you know there is a conversion for the A&H - but if you are shooting #11's now there isn't a real advantage... IMO
Are 209s more weather proof?
This is a great topic and enjoy reading both sides. The way I read his post was everyone has an opinion just like everyone has an A Hole. What is the a&h you are talking about Sabotloader? I know nothing about mls.
I made an assumption he was talking about an Austin & Halleck ML
(https://s26.postimg.org/ae73pas6h/Austin-_Halleck.jpg)
Post by: floatinghat on January 31, 2018, 11:33:33 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on January 31, 2018, 11:39:35 AM
Slow reply due to business travel. Yes, I was talking the anatomy. SL, very nice A&H, are they typically 1-28 twist?
Yes - 1/28... but they have a terribly long bolt throw....
Post by: floatinghat on February 01, 2018, 07:58:49 AM
Post by: GoexBlackhorn on February 02, 2018, 04:43:52 PM
Thanks, really hoping this doesn't get approved. If it does I hope my fears aren't realized, WA already packs a lot of people into a few Muzzy units, this would just make those units more crowded for at least the next 3 years.
In the next year, you can expect the number of new muzzleloader hunting licenses to double, now that the ML gun laws have changed to allow inlines.
All the gun stores in Pennsylvania are going to enjoy the added business. This will turn into a nice boost of your sporting goods economy. Plus the State reaps the cash flow from the additional license fees and taxes added to the sales of all the MLs and accessories.
It's a Plus-Plus for the Pennsylvania economy.
Post by: TommyGun496 on February 03, 2018, 06:29:49 AM
Thanks, really hoping this doesn't get approved. If it does I hope my fears aren't realized, WA already packs a lot of people into a few Muzzy units, this would just make those units more crowded for at least the next 3 years.
In the next year, you can expect the number of new muzzleloader hunting licenses to double, now that the ML gun laws have changed to allow inlines.
All the gun stores in Pennsylvania are going to enjoy the added business. This will turn into a nice boost of your sporting goods economy. Plus the State reaps the cash flow from the additional license fees and taxes added to the sales of all the MLs and accessories.
It's a Plus-Plus for the Pennsylvania economy.
Inlines are already legal. The only change would be the 209 ignition that will be allowed.
Post by: GoexBlackhorn on February 03, 2018, 10:05:32 AM
Blackhorn 209
Pyrodex Select
American Pioneer
Shockey Gold
Alliant Black Mag
Alliant Blue Mag pellets
White Hots pellets
Pyrodex pellets.
For shooters currently using either real blackpowder or 777, no added benefit really, when changing to 209 ignitions.
Post by: bobcat on February 03, 2018, 10:08:14 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 03, 2018, 10:10:21 AM
In that case, adding 209 ignition allows better ignition from powders like......It isn't just 209, any firearm primer would be legal as will a closed/weather-resistant breech.
Blackhorn 209
Pyrodex Select
American Pioneer
Shockey Gold
Alliant Black Mag
Alliant Blue Mag pellets
White Hots pellets
Pyrodex pellets.
For shooters currently using either real blackpowder or 777, no added benefit really, when changing to 209 ignitions.
Post by: Sabotloader on February 03, 2018, 12:45:30 PM
In that case, adding 209 ignition allows better ignition from powders like......It isn't just 209, any firearm primer would be legal as will a closed/weather-resistant breech.
Blackhorn 209
Pyrodex Select
American Pioneer
Shockey Gold
Alliant Black Mag
Alliant Blue Mag pellets
White Hots pellets
Pyrodex pellets.
For shooters currently using either real blackpowder or 777, no added benefit really, when changing to 209 ignitions.
Which still would not change much in the big picture. You can easily make your current percussion cap breech water proof also... That has been done for decades!
Post by: buglebrush on February 03, 2018, 12:58:48 PM
Can I ask what this has to do with Pennsylvania? How would a change here in Washington affect anything in Pennsylvania?
Nothing, but they're terrified anyway :chuckle: :sry:
Post by: JeffRaines on February 03, 2018, 01:14:45 PM
A good majority of the modern guys pull their guns out a couple weeks before season, fire a few rounds and call it good. I'd say a good percentage don't really leave their rigs much while hunting. What makes you think these hunters are going to suddenly put in the time and effort to learn a new weapon and become proficient with it, then suddenly start leaving their trucks and roaming the woods? Its not a realistic conclusion based on whats at stake.
Sure, if we're talking optics, then yes... because said guys would be able to go and watch over clearcuts in their rigs and take 200+ yard shots with ease, after all the modern muzzleloader isn't far off from a centerfire when it comes to accuracy and ability.
As far as it being a slippery slope... I can't see that either. The optic would make such a huge difference, even with the rules we have now. Changing the cap rules would just make it easier to find caps, you wouldn't be restricted to certain powders, and most importantly you could go buy any muzzleloader off the shelf. You wouldn't have to worry about it being "NW Legal" or some crap.
Post by: pilebuck60 on February 13, 2018, 06:53:59 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on February 13, 2018, 07:04:05 PM
Post by: floatinghat on February 13, 2018, 10:00:42 PM
For the 209 powders, do they run cleaner and foul less? Never played with them so curious if cleaner I might give them a go if not I’ll stick to 777
Yes, BH209 is very clean and leaves no crud ring. If you want you could use BH209 now by duplexing 5 to 10gr of your choice of BP or sub and the remainder of your load BH209. It's not worth the effort for me if I have to make a follow up shot. I am not advocating duplexing and this is purely informational how BH209 could be ignited without a 209 primer.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 14, 2018, 09:14:05 AM
If the 209 passes I will swap to them and change from loose pack to pellets for powder.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on February 14, 2018, 09:37:02 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on February 14, 2018, 09:59:23 AM
Doesn’t bh209 require solvents for cleaning? As compared to 777 that cleans up with water or windex. I haven’t used it but do enjoy the ease of cleaning that 777 provides.
If the 209 passes I will swap to them and change from loose pack to pellets for powder.
This is how I clean BH or T7
(https://s26.postimg.org/ae73p2myx/Bore_Cleaning.jpg)
You really might not like pellets with 209 ignition... that combination can produce a heck of a crud ring - you are far better off using loose T7 and the mildest primer you can find...
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 14, 2018, 10:30:52 AM
My cleaning regimen has been to spray some windex in the barrel and run back and forth with a brush a few times and then rinse with hot water. Then dry with patches and finally oil the bore with a patch followed by a dry patch. He breech plug, nipple and bolt all get toothbrush treatment with windex.
The switch to pellets will be for ease of carrying and loading extra shots. I find myself spilling powder if excited and trying to load fast. :chuckle:
With the loose 777 I have been able to shoot 12+ shots without cleaning... will I not be able to shoot as many with pellets? Also will the 209 primer crud clean up with windex?
Post by: Sabotloader on February 14, 2018, 10:58:51 AM
Good info sabot. Thanks.
My cleaning regimen has been to spray some windex in the barrel and run back and forth with a brush a few times and then rinse with hot water. Then dry with patches and finally oil the bore with a patch followed by a dry patch. He breech plug, nipple and bolt all get toothbrush treatment with windex.
The switch to pellets will be for ease of carrying and loading extra shots. I find myself spilling powder if excited and trying to load fast. :chuckle:
With the loose 777 I have been able to shoot 12+ shots without cleaning... will I not be able to shoot as many with pellets? Also will the 209 primer crud clean up with windex?
You were able to load that many rounds using T7 - because you were using a cap ignition. Using a 209 primer creates a great deal more heat at the ignition point which then creates the 'crud ring'. Even shooting loose T7 with a 209 primer can create a 'crud ring' depending on what you might be using in your bore. Pellets normal create a greater amount of 'crud' when ignited with a 209 primer.
The 'crud ring' is easily cleaned with a Windex patch. When I shoot T7 with a 209, I can normally load 3-4 shots before I really need to run a patch.
Post by: Twang on February 14, 2018, 01:56:35 PM
Post by: floatinghat on February 16, 2018, 08:02:27 AM
more heat at the ignition point which then creates the 'crud ring'.
Interesting, What effect does the shape of the BP have on the crud ring? I notice the crud ring much more on my Knight vs a White. I wondered if the bowl shape of the White BP was the cause. Next question could the Knight BP be modified to achieve a similar result?
Post by: Sabotloader on February 16, 2018, 07:47:04 PM
more heat at the ignition point which then creates the 'crud ring'.
Interesting, What effect does the shape of the BP have on the crud ring? I notice the crud ring much more on my Knight vs a White. I wondered if the bowl shape of the White BP was the cause. Next question could the Knight BP be modified to achieve a similar result?
Not sure on the shape/construction of the BP creating a difference... Is your White use a 209 ignition? I guess I should ask about the Knight also - 209?
For me shooting caps from either the White or a Knight no real difference at all in fact I really do not even patch when shooting caps.
Post by: BigGoonTuna on February 20, 2018, 08:11:10 AM
Indeed if you want to shot long, use scope, be careless with your powder and primer go mod and quit changing it to suit you when that hunt already exists. You ruin it for others. Better yet, stack me up and go semi autowow, tell us how you really feel!
Post by: floatinghat on February 28, 2018, 10:45:54 PM
more heat at the ignition point which then creates the 'crud ring'.
Interesting, What effect does the shape of the BP have on the crud ring? I notice the crud ring much more on my Knight vs a White. I wondered if the bowl shape of the White BP was the cause. Next question could the Knight BP be modified to achieve a similar result?
Sorry I have been travelling on business, both are #11.
Not sure on the shape/construction of the BP creating a difference... Is your White use a 209 ignition? I guess I should ask about the Knight also - 209?
For me shooting caps from either the White or a Knight no real difference at all in fact I really do not even patch when shooting caps.
Post by: reelamin on March 13, 2018, 01:16:41 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 13, 2018, 01:31:41 PM
So can we use 209's now in Wa??? I have looked with my limited internet skills and never found a final answer.More than likely it looks like 2018 will be the first season for it, but won't know for sure until the new regs are adopted by the WDFW commission in a few weeks.
Post by: mallardaddict on March 13, 2018, 04:04:24 PM
So can we use 209's now in Wa??? I have looked with my limited internet skills and never found a final answer.
The proposal will be presented and public opinion allowed 03/14-16 I believe in Wenatchee at the annual meeting. Assuming it passes this committee it goes to the board for final adoption or denial I believe 04/12.
I ah e talked to many folks in the wdfw and most think it will pass.
If so I will take advantage of the change, if not I have other muzzleloader I can use no sweat.
My only concern is the outright attacks even in this board by the anti 209 crowd on the pro 209 crowd. Different strokes for different folks but I have issue begrudging another individual or group because they think differnt then me. We are all on the same team and 209’s and sealed breeches have been repeatedly shown to only slightly if at all better then open ignitions.
This rule change will indeed attract a few more hunters, but that is likely to be short lived. The real benefit is that it opens the Washington state muzzleloader market to a *censored* load more muzzleloader platforms.
Post by: floatinghat on March 14, 2018, 10:12:19 AM
Interesting those with a different opinion are attacking and antis. "Different strokes for different folks but I have issue begrudging another individual or group because they think differnt then me." Irony here, you appear to want to make your pro point and not let others have input and name label then anti's and attackers.
I have mentioned my concern, if it brings more people to muzzy the number of animals harvest will increase and that will effect the seasons. We have already had people suggest lengthening the early season and shortening the late season.
True some people will come in for a couple of seasons and quit.
If there is only a slight improvement why the fuss. What platforms are needed with our open sight restrictions? I see the next request 0x scopes...
Post by: mallardaddict on March 14, 2018, 07:48:01 PM
Irony here, you appear to want to make your pro point and not let others have input and name label then anti's and attackers.
Holy shït did you even read what I wrote dude? Do me a favor find 1 single post on any forum where I have ever cast the first attack at anyone for their thoughts and preferences and I will gladly rub your nose in the fact that you can’t.
I also said nothing about a “need” for new weapons platforms but rather I support allowing hunters a greater option of brands and models. The state doesn’t say you can only use Remington rifles and not savage under modern firearm rules So why are we excluding over 75% of the muzzleloader on the market. Again if your happy with the weapon you use why do you care what I use as long as it’s legal and ethical?
I also don’t think we will see a decrease in seasons simply because they allow 209’s. As the bow rules were relaxed to allow higher let off, expanadable broadheads, lighted nicks etc we have watched a steady increase in not only in participants but also in success ratios. Despite these increases bow hunters have not suffered any measurable loss of their seasons that wasn’t also enacted on ML and Rifle seasons.
I prefer 209 primers for the ability to reliably ignite pellets or perhaps BH209 if I choose. None of these powders give any significant velocity or energy increases over real black, just have slightly easier cleaning. It isn’t like this is legislation to allow smokeless mizzleloaders. Again how is this bad?
Sealed breeches can help cut down on hangfires which could undeniably have a positive effect on decreased wounding of animals from hangfires. A guy can already legally tape or plastic wrap his breechplug area to seal it so why the big deal of a gun comes with sealed breech?
It comes down to emotion and no scientific data to support the exclusion of 209’s as presented by the anti 209 crowd trying to overshadow data and statistics that the pro 209 group have posted.
Sounds a lot like our current gun control fights to me but sadly this is occurring between people who are on the same team!
So yes I did already buy a sealed 209 barrel for my pro encore but if that legislation fails to pass I will gladly use one of my other smokepole that has had no issues killing elk year after year.
Post by: floatinghat on March 15, 2018, 03:46:39 PM
"We are all on the same team and 209’s and sealed breeches have been repeatedly shown to only slightly if at all better then open ignitions" Implication is the people who don't agree should go along with your team and persepctive.
You were asked what new platforms we need in responce to "it will open Washington to new platforms". So this is more of a let me shoot what I want. So similar to the peeps that want to legalize .22x for big game hunting?
Success, the seasons duration are directly tied to harvest success rates. Sure it takes a few years for things to catch up, few days here and there. Not certain if the previously massive allocation of Cow Elk Permits is the clearest indicator?
209's, I have rarely shot pellets but a friend does and hasn't had ignition issues. You can easily shoot BH209 by duplexing (I am not suggesting you duplex) only saying a number of people duplex BH209. I'll agree there are advantages to 209's but that doesn't mean the legislation should allow it. Most of the issues (hang fire) with #11/MC are easily addressed with good planning and preperation.
What happens will happen and we will see the results in about 9-12 years. IMO, status quo little to risk, allow 209's I think that increases. As I have said in the past, I don't have a great deal of confidence for positive fixes come from Olympia.
I'll give you what could be a positive, more people, opens more GMU's.
From my tablet sorry if I missed anything
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on March 20, 2018, 05:46:43 PM
Haven't seen much of a decrease in west side muzzy or mf deer seasons... Archery deer lost a week... Just saying.. Things have changed! Used to be September 1st-30th for early archery and now its the 24th and there has been talk of them taking a few days off the beginning of September as well. Same goes for fall bear season in the unit I used to hunt them in. Used to open August 1st. Now it opens August 15th due to increased harvest.Irony here, you appear to want to make your pro point and not let others have input and name label then anti's and attackers.
Holy shït did you even read what I wrote dude? Do me a favor find 1 single post on any forum where I have ever cast the first attack at anyone for their thoughts and preferences and I will gladly rub your nose in the fact that you can’t.
I also said nothing about a “need” for new weapons platforms but rather I support allowing hunters a greater option of brands and models. The state doesn’t say you can only use Remington rifles and not savage under modern firearm rules So why are we excluding over 75% of the muzzleloader on the market. Again if your happy with the weapon you use why do you care what I use as long as it’s legal and ethical?
I also don’t think we will see a decrease in seasons simply because they allow 209’s. As the bow rules were relaxed to allow higher let off, expanadable broadheads, lighted nicks etc we have watched a steady increase in not only in participants but also in success ratios. Despite these increases bow hunters have not suffered any measurable loss of their seasons that wasn’t also enacted on ML and Rifle seasons.
I prefer 209 primers for the ability to reliably ignite pellets or perhaps BH209 if I choose. None of these powders give any significant velocity or energy increases over real black, just have slightly easier cleaning. It isn’t like this is legislation to allow smokeless mizzleloaders. Again how is this bad?
Sealed breeches can help cut down on hangfires which could undeniably have a positive effect on decreased wounding of animals from hangfires. A guy can already legally tape or plastic wrap his breechplug area to seal it so why the big deal of a gun comes with sealed breech?
It comes down to emotion and no scientific data to support the exclusion of 209’s as presented by the anti 209 crowd trying to overshadow data and statistics that the pro 209 group have posted.
Sounds a lot like our current gun control fights to me but sadly this is occurring between people who are on the same team!
So yes I did already buy a sealed 209 barrel for my pro encore but if that legislation fails to pass I will gladly use one of my other smokepole that has had no issues killing elk year after year.