Post by: ridgefire on April 21, 2020, 10:05:21 AM
Post by: Bullmoose on April 21, 2020, 10:08:02 AM
Post by: Stein on April 21, 2020, 10:10:03 AM
My solution was to stop applying and go elsewhere. To the best of my knowledge, there is no management plan, they do a half-hearted count and then issue tags off of that. In my mind, that isn't management as they are doing nothing to understand the problem or remediate it.
I'll give my money to states that do a better job.
Post by: Mtnwalker on April 21, 2020, 10:15:32 AM
Post by: ridgefire on April 21, 2020, 10:16:14 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on April 21, 2020, 10:19:49 AM
Muzzleloader Take a Hit and Archery Gets more again,what does archery get more of?
Post by: jstone on April 21, 2020, 10:20:17 AM
Post by: Katmai Guy on April 21, 2020, 10:20:41 AM
Muzzleloader Take a Hit and Archery Gets more again,
BS! We all took cuts.
Post by: 92xj on April 21, 2020, 10:26:15 AM
It sucks because i will be at 14 quality elk points this year and i don't even hunt elk in Washington anymore. I hate donating to the state but almost to vested to give up on the draw. Decisions.
If you could retrain yourself to look at your percent probability of drawing instead of the number of points you have, you might change your tune.
I completely get the thought and feeling of having "so many" points that you can't leave until you burn them, but turn that point figure into a percentage figure and it should be pretty easy to walk away and fund other states.
I still fund this state and buy the application because I don't look at my point number to determine my expectations or hopes of drawing. I look at this as putting my one name in the hat ( no matter how many points I have) and at any given time with any given animal my one little single ping pong ball might shoot up.
I also look at it that I have horrible luck in a lot of things and I'm just throwing money away.
Catch 22
Post by: WSU on April 21, 2020, 10:29:43 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on April 21, 2020, 10:32:47 AM
The draw for quality or bull tags (and quality deer) only makes sense if you plan to hunt general season and treat it like a bonus chance to draw a tag. If you don't look forward to general season, it makes no sense to spend the money hoping to draw a tag unless you simply don't mind throwing that money away annually.
:yeah: :yeah: and especially for elk if you don't draw the multi season tag since you are stuck hunting a side of the state with a specific weapon. I drew a quality tag a few years ago and haven't applied since because I hunt elk in other states each year. Key word there is "hunt" elk and not "kill" elk :chuckle:
Post by: ridgefire on April 21, 2020, 10:35:07 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on April 21, 2020, 10:36:18 AM
I did a quick count and it looked like around 450ish quality elk tags for the entire state between all methods of take. Pretty sad to see. I try to stay optimistic but it gets tougher and tougher to do!I was at the drawing last year, there were like 600 tags and 27,000 applicants if I remember correctly. Odds were brutal then and even worse this year.
Post by: WSU on April 21, 2020, 10:38:36 AM
Plus some people are just damn lucky. My dad has drawn 3 quality deer tags while I've drawn none. If your name is in the hat there's a chance.
Post by: bigfish51 on April 21, 2020, 10:48:00 AM
Talked to a local bio yesterday and asked him what's up on the theory that the Blues (and other regions) are at or above the carrying capacity. BS deal! He agreed. Couldn't really tell me what was considered a good herd # for anywhere in this state. I laugh, as I think WA is shooting for a herd of "0".
As others have stated, start looking at other states if you want to enjoy a hunt with some chances of success. I've been hunting in a number of other states and have had great times with family and friends and even killed or had chances of killing some nice animals.
Good luck to all!
Post by: cb1989 on April 21, 2020, 11:04:44 AM
With 474 total quality elk tags combined and let's be generous and say their is a 25% success rate that is only about 119 bulls killed by hunters with quality bull permits in Washington combined. There was 333 antlered elk killed in unit 1 in Idaho last year by itself. That is dang near 3x as many elk killed in Idaho in one unit than all of Eastern Washington combined. We are screwed.
Idaho will get there eventually. Its all just supply and demand. Have you seen the trajectory of Idaho's population? And nobody is moving there to stay indoors. Washington was just the first state to fall. Too little habitat too many people. That is the disease. You can argue all day about how the symptoms are managed, but the disease itself is incurable, and fatal. Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming aren't good hunting because they've got geniuses running their game depts. It's because they have more habitat and fewer people. When we're old Idaho will be talked about the same way old timers now talk about Washington. Seems its already kind of happening with the deer hunting.
Post by: whacker1 on April 21, 2020, 11:17:10 AM
Heck, I just did the Blue Mountain region quality bull tags for all 3 methods, and that totals 114 tags (counting the Watershed). Just a few years ago that number was in the 200's and a little further back it was in the 300's. Sad is the word that I use to describe what has happened to the Blue Mountain hunts (deer and elk). Now it's just cool to say that you saw a legal animal while out in the field there. Bummer!This isn't direct at you, just using some of your comparisions.
Talked to a local bio yesterday and asked him what's up on the theory that the Blues (and other regions) are at or above the carrying capacity. BS deal! He agreed. Couldn't really tell me what was considered a good herd # for anywhere in this state. I laugh, as I think WA is shooting for a herd of "0".
As others have stated, start looking at other states if you want to enjoy a hunt with some chances of success. I've been hunting in a number of other states and have had great times with family and friends and even killed or had chances of killing some nice animals.
Good luck to all!
I think if you go back to 2014 and transition to 2015, the numbers of quality bull tags went up in the blue mtns by nearly 30%. i recall 6 archery tags in the tucannon going to 8. 2 muzzleloader tags going to 3, and 12 rifle tags going to 16. i believe it was the same in the Mtn View and Dayton on a percentage. i can't speak to all of the other units, but i recall it being a pretty healthy increase. i watched it really close, because i drew in 2014.....so the time frame forward was of significant interest to me and my friends that hadn't yet drawn.
Post by: bobcat on April 21, 2020, 11:18:59 AM
With 474 total quality elk tags combined and let's be generous and say their is a 25% success rate that is only about 119 bulls killed by hunters with quality bull permits in Washington combined. There was 333 antlered elk killed in unit 1 in Idaho last year by itself. That is dang near 3x as many elk killed in Idaho in one unit than all of Eastern Washington combined. We are screwed.
Idaho will get there eventually. Its all just supply and demand. Have you seen the trajectory of Idaho's population? And nobody is moving there to stay indoors. Washington was just the first state to fall. Too little habitat too many people. That is the disease. You can argue all day about how the symptoms are managed, but the disease itself is incurable, and fatal. Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming aren't good hunting because they've got geniuses running their game depts. It's because they have more habitat and fewer people. When we're old Idaho will be talked about the same way old timers now talk about Washington. Seems its already kind of happening with the deer hunting.
Good post. That's exactly the issue. Too many people. There's nothing that's going to change that for the better.
The lack of elk has a lot to do with the fact that farmers/landowners aren't willing to have many elk on their land. We could have ten times the number of elk if people weren't living and/or growing food in what was previously elk habitat.
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 21, 2020, 11:31:53 AM
And I don't know if the to many people argument is strong. Some loss of habitat yes. Yes the states population increases. The number of hunters may ever so slightly increase(haven't checked just assuming) , but does the number of people that hunt increase? I've been hunting the same country off and on in different areas of the state for over 30 years and can honestly say none of my spots have been overrun with people. Maybe I'm in the minority.
One thing is for sure deer and elk tags might as well be OIL tags.
Post by: Onewhohikes on April 21, 2020, 11:48:16 AM
Post by: SteelheadTed on April 21, 2020, 12:28:35 PM
It sucks because i will be at 14 quality elk points this year and i don't even hunt elk in Washington anymore. I hate donating to the state but almost to vested to give up on the draw. Decisions.
Sounds like you should consider it a sunk cost and move on?
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 21, 2020, 12:38:53 PM
Don’t ask how you get 40 points and I’m not gonna run the numbers for you.
Post by: Stein on April 21, 2020, 04:40:56 PM
It sucks because i will be at 14 quality elk points this year and i don't even hunt elk in Washington anymore. I hate donating to the state but almost to vested to give up on the draw. Decisions.
Sounds like you should consider it a sunk cost and move on?
For the cost of an elk license and quality application you can put in for similar horrible odds in another state and have a true trophy draw. Of course, you would have to buy that tag, but it's going to be something special. NM is a great place to look in that line.
Or, you can go buy lottery tickets or put it all on red at the casino and then luck out and buy yourself a tag.
Post by: coachcw on April 21, 2020, 05:30:55 PM
If a so called 119 are killed there's a much larger number of wounded dead elk so at least try and factor that in . the main problems i have are reckless lack of tribal help ie individuals that kill 20 plus bulls a year and the lack of a accurate bull count , plenty of bulls never get factored into the number .With 474 total quality elk tags combined and let's be generous and say their is a 25% success rate that is only about 119 bulls killed by hunters with quality bull permits in Washington combined. There was 333 antlered elk killed in unit 1 in Idaho last year by itself. That is dang near 3x as many elk killed in Idaho in one unit than all of Eastern Washington combined. We are screwed.
Idaho will get there eventually. Its all just supply and demand. Have you seen the trajectory of Idaho's population? And nobody is moving there to stay indoors. Washington was just the first state to fall. Too little habitat too many people. That is the disease. You can argue all day about how the symptoms are managed, but the disease itself is incurable, and fatal. Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming aren't good hunting because they've got geniuses running their game depts. It's because they have more habitat and fewer people. When we're old Idaho will be talked about the same way old timers now talk about Washington. Seems its already kind of happening with the deer hunting.
Post by: dvolmer on April 22, 2020, 12:09:21 AM
I can't speak for all of the hunting special permit categories but I have been putting in for over 35 years and I have seen the following. In my quality elk choices I have seen the permits go from 17 to 3 and from 20 to 2. In my antlerless elk choices I have seen it go from 300 to 10 and from 60 to zero. In my bull elk choices it has went from 78 to 14. All of these are in Eastern Washington but not all in one area. Both the Blues and the Yakima areas are where I apply and have applied in the past. I know that this is the case for the majority of the special permits in our state. We are screwed for sure! Id like to be optimistic but I truly do not see an answer for this. Could this be fixed? YES! Will it be fixed? NO!!!! It really really wont, and that makes me sad. Some of you will say I,m a dooms-day'r, but you all just wait another 10 years and then compare the allocations and you will see that I was unfortunately right! The system is slowly eating the goose that lays their golden eggs!
Post by: Onewhohikes on April 22, 2020, 05:49:05 AM
Post by: hhack on April 22, 2020, 06:19:25 AM
Post by: Pinetar on April 22, 2020, 08:15:16 AM
A lot of members are complaining about special permit reductions this year compared to last year (and they should). But if you want to get really sick and mad just find a copy of a 10 year old regulations and compare the reduction in the last 10 years and not just the last one! It will make you mad and then make you sick and want to hurl! They are slowly destroying Washington state big game hunting. I'm no expert but I believe that in the last 10 years we haven't had a huge surge in the number of hunters. What we have had is some terrible game management, huge increases in uncontrolled native trophy and retail meat hunting, uncontrolled wolf introduction, non-baiting bear hunting restrictions, no hound hunting for cats and bears, and a liberal government who has spent the income and resources of the sportsmen/women in this state on other social programs. the honest law abiding sportsman who is out buying a license every year and trying to keep the rules the best they can have been totally hosed! All they have done is paid a ton of money to a system that is in failure mode and gives all of its assets to non-paying and non-revenue producing special interest groups. The Average Washington State sportsman/woman has been nothing more than robbed of their resource!
I can't speak for all of the hunting special permit categories but I have been putting in for over 35 years and I have seen the following. In my quality elk choices I have seen the permits go from 17 to 3 and from 20 to 2. In my antlerless elk choices I have seen it go from 300 to 10 and from 60 to zero. In my bull elk choices it has went from 78 to 14. All of these are in Eastern Washington but not all in one area. Both the Blues and the Yakima areas are where I apply and have applied in the past. I know that this is the case for the majority of the special permits in our state. We are screwed for sure! Id like to be optimistic but I truly do not see an answer for this. Could this be fixed? YES! Will it be fixed? NO!!!! It really really wont, and that makes me sad. Some of you will say I,m a dooms-day'r, but you all just wait another 10 years and then compare the allocations and you will see that I was unfortunately right! The system is slowly eating the goose that lays their golden eggs!
WDFW and their biologist are a joke. They don't have a clue where to even go look for bulls to get their counts even close to being correct. They spend most of their time flying around the herds counting calves, cow and bulls. 99.9% of the bulls are in small bachelor groups higher then the herds in the spring and winter. By the time they get motivated and out flying around the bulls are all bedded down in the timber. HELL, last week they were out all night till daylight running around in the Taneum on sleds counting Owls, if they would get this motivated on our Elk herds they might actually realize our bull numbers are doing fine/great depending on the unit. I have even seen them several times out flying and counting bulls in April :chuckle: :chuckle:
Get out of your office and out from behind your desk and go get real life data. Twenty years ago you would see the biologist in the hills all winter/spring doing their job. Now they just sit behind their desks and push numbers around, unless they are counting Owls. :bash:
Post by: ridgefire on April 22, 2020, 09:25:11 AM
Post by: WSU on April 22, 2020, 10:06:11 AM
Before long it will be a complete draw just to hunt general season.
If that happens I am heading out of state every year. The only reason to hunt in state is that I can do it every year and not have to hope to draw a tag.
Post by: ballpark on April 22, 2020, 10:15:56 AM
Before long it will be a complete draw just to hunt general season.
The writing is on the wall. Habitat, access and total # harvested by all needs to be addressed. Stop depredation killings 1st. If I care to give them a break, maybe they are some how figuring other harvest's into the computation and not telling us - don't shoot me :chuckle:
Post by: Stein on April 22, 2020, 10:31:02 AM
Post by: WSU on April 22, 2020, 11:02:02 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on April 22, 2020, 11:05:46 AM
I don't agree with your criticism of WDFW in this case. I think, in general, the tag cuts are appropriate given the decline in numbers. I'm mostly familiar with the Blues - and there are definitely less elk than several years ago. Its not a matter of missing them or not counting them at the right time. I wish tag numbers were higher, but given the shape the elk are in, I'm glad they have cut tags.A lot of members are complaining about special permit reductions this year compared to last year (and they should). But if you want to get really sick and mad just find a copy of a 10 year old regulations and compare the reduction in the last 10 years and not just the last one! It will make you mad and then make you sick and want to hurl! They are slowly destroying Washington state big game hunting. I'm no expert but I believe that in the last 10 years we haven't had a huge surge in the number of hunters. What we have had is some terrible game management, huge increases in uncontrolled native trophy and retail meat hunting, uncontrolled wolf introduction, non-baiting bear hunting restrictions, no hound hunting for cats and bears, and a liberal government who has spent the income and resources of the sportsmen/women in this state on other social programs. the honest law abiding sportsman who is out buying a license every year and trying to keep the rules the best they can have been totally hosed! All they have done is paid a ton of money to a system that is in failure mode and gives all of its assets to non-paying and non-revenue producing special interest groups. The Average Washington State sportsman/woman has been nothing more than robbed of their resource!
I can't speak for all of the hunting special permit categories but I have been putting in for over 35 years and I have seen the following. In my quality elk choices I have seen the permits go from 17 to 3 and from 20 to 2. In my antlerless elk choices I have seen it go from 300 to 10 and from 60 to zero. In my bull elk choices it has went from 78 to 14. All of these are in Eastern Washington but not all in one area. Both the Blues and the Yakima areas are where I apply and have applied in the past. I know that this is the case for the majority of the special permits in our state. We are screwed for sure! Id like to be optimistic but I truly do not see an answer for this. Could this be fixed? YES! Will it be fixed? NO!!!! It really really wont, and that makes me sad. Some of you will say I,m a dooms-day'r, but you all just wait another 10 years and then compare the allocations and you will see that I was unfortunately right! The system is slowly eating the goose that lays their golden eggs!
WDFW and their biologist are a joke. They don't have a clue where to even go look for bulls to get their counts even close to being correct. They spend most of their time flying around the herds counting calves, cow and bulls. 99.9% of the bulls are in small bachelor groups higher then the herds in the spring and winter. By the time they get motivated and out flying around the bulls are all bedded down in the timber. HELL, last week they were out all night till daylight running around in the Taneum on sleds counting Owls, if they would get this motivated on our Elk herds they might actually realize our bull numbers are doing fine/great depending on the unit. I have even seen them several times out flying and counting bulls in April :chuckle: :chuckle:
Get out of your office and out from behind your desk and go get real life data. Twenty years ago you would see the biologist in the hills all winter/spring doing their job. Now they just sit behind their desks and push numbers around, unless they are counting Owls. :bash:
Post by: Stein on April 22, 2020, 11:08:15 AM
That system is ripe for abuse. Plus, I view our wildlife as public property and not property to be auctioned off by private individuals. If landowners want to recoup money, they can always charge for access. :twocents:
Many places you can't get a branch antler tag easily or in your lifetime.
There isn't going to be a perfect solution, but we know where the "do nothing" road leads. We already auction off tags in pretty much every state. It's somewhat of a plug your nose thing, but the results are hard to argue with - tons of money that goes into conservation.
Post by: idahohuntr on April 22, 2020, 11:21:28 AM
I think WDFW should consider giving impacted landowners tags they can sell (maybe the do?). If a farmer or rancher can sell 5 tags for $3k each (just a guess), it would lessen the impact and maybe allow for larger herds.
I also don't like the auction idea - and would contend the results are easy to argue with :chuckle:That system is ripe for abuse. Plus, I view our wildlife as public property and not property to be auctioned off by private individuals. If landowners want to recoup money, they can always charge for access. :twocents:
Many places you can't get a branch antler tag easily or in your lifetime.
There isn't going to be a perfect solution, but we know where the "do nothing" road leads. We already auction off tags in pretty much every state. It's somewhat of a plug your nose thing, but the results are hard to argue with - tons of money that goes into conservation.
I find it illogical to suggest that average sportsman get any benefit (and more likely detriment) from WDFW auctioning elk tags. $400ish million dollar budgets and the $50k does what for us?? And the only way to get $50k for that auction tag is to make sure there are units that strictly limit harvest by the general public...so less opportunity for most and .0001% increase in budgets to an agency that spends $800k on wolf facilitators...no thanks.
Post by: Stein on April 22, 2020, 11:33:12 AM
I'm not a huge fan, but if it is very limited and doesn't creep and turn into a pay to play system, it's better than many other alternatives.
I suggest we to compare it to something else that has the same impact as opposed to comparing it to doing nothing as that is a horrible idea and shouldn't be considered.
Post by: Bigshooter on April 22, 2020, 11:52:53 AM
It's $50,000. That's a bunch of money and part of a solution. I think the auction tag money goes directly into that species for most states. A couple hundred thousand a year can really do some good when it is targeted and available every year no matter what the game budgets do.
I'm not a huge fan, but if it is very limited and doesn't creep and turn into a pay to play system, it's better than many other alternatives.
I suggest we to compare it to something else that has the same impact as opposed to comparing it to doing nothing as that is a horrible idea and shouldn't be considered.
Solution? What have you identified as the problem? No compensation for landowners?
Post by: jdb on April 22, 2020, 11:56:41 AM
Get rid of special tribal harvest. Treat everyone as equal.not possible
Post by: Stein on April 22, 2020, 11:59:25 AM
It's $50,000. That's a bunch of money and part of a solution. I think the auction tag money goes directly into that species for most states. A couple hundred thousand a year can really do some good when it is targeted and available every year no matter what the game budgets do.
I'm not a huge fan, but if it is very limited and doesn't creep and turn into a pay to play system, it's better than many other alternatives.
I suggest we to compare it to something else that has the same impact as opposed to comparing it to doing nothing as that is a horrible idea and shouldn't be considered.
Solution? What have you identified as the problem? No compensation for landowners?
The problem in this thread is low quality tag numbers. One contributor is that some herds do damage to private land and are managed to lower numbers or even culled which results in smaller herds than could otherwise be present given the existing habitat.
Post by: Bigshooter on April 22, 2020, 12:02:31 PM
It's $50,000. That's a bunch of money and part of a solution. I think the auction tag money goes directly into that species for most states. A couple hundred thousand a year can really do some good when it is targeted and available every year no matter what the game budgets do.
I'm not a huge fan, but if it is very limited and doesn't creep and turn into a pay to play system, it's better than many other alternatives.
I suggest we to compare it to something else that has the same impact as opposed to comparing it to doing nothing as that is a horrible idea and shouldn't be considered.
Solution? What have you identified as the problem? No compensation for landowners?
The problem in this thread is low quality tag numbers. One contributor is that some herds do damage to private land and are managed to lower numbers or even culled which results in smaller herds than could otherwise be present given the existing habitat.
So the solution is allowing landowners to sell tags to kill elk on private property? Or public property? Then use that money to improve habitat? Habitat that could already have more elk on it than it does right now?
Post by: Stein on April 22, 2020, 12:05:10 PM
Post by: ridgefire on April 22, 2020, 12:54:33 PM
Post by: 180-GRAIN on April 22, 2020, 12:56:50 PM
Before long it will be a complete draw just to hunt general season.
I really wish this was already in place.
Post by: Bango skank on April 22, 2020, 01:01:11 PM
I think landowner tags are a joke and do more damage than good for the average hunter. If anything, compensate the ranchers for opening their properties for depredation hunts. Win for ranchers and sportsmen.
A good idea in theory, but lots of room for abuse there too. Like all the members of the public that get to do the depredation hunts being friends, extended families, other people the landowners know in a "you scratch my back ill scratch yours" kind of deal. Hey, ill let you do this depredation hunt on my land for such and such in return... then the general public gets no chance to do said depredation hunts, yet the landowner still gets critters killed, and is compensated by the state on top of it, and probably getting other little kickbacks from people doing the hunting. Im just speculating though. Or maybe im just talking out of my ass. But i could see it going more or less like i said.
Post by: Stein on April 22, 2020, 01:05:23 PM
I think landowner tags are a joke and do more damage than good for the average hunter. If anything, compensate the ranchers for opening their properties for depredation hunts. Win for ranchers and sportsmen.
A good idea in theory, but lots of room for abuse there too. Like all the members of the public that get to do the depredation hunts being friends, extended families, other people the landowners know in a "you scratch my back ill scratch yours" kind of deal. Hey, ill let you do this depredation hunt on my land for such and such in return... then the general public gets no chance to do said depredation hunts, yet the landowner still gets critters killed, and is compensated by the state on top of it, and probably getting other little kickbacks from people doing the hunting. Im just speculating though. Or maybe im just talking out of my ass. But i could see it going more or less like i said.
No, you're right. In MT, the BMA program allows property owners to run their own reservation system for those that aren't sign-in. Guess what happens? They also enroll BMA property that doesn't have any animals, just like in WA. If the area bio is on the ball, they stay away from junk properties, but other bio's just want numbers of acres enrolled.
I think the properties in WA only get something like $1k a year, so for many it's not worth the hassle, risk or garbage left behind. Most of the private outfits that compete with BMA or FFTH offerings from the state are easily able to pay more.
Post by: idahohuntr on April 22, 2020, 01:31:09 PM
I think you are pretty close to accurate. I have access to depredation tags in two states and in both cases I basically see plenty of what you describe...and in some cases I think there are significant conflicts of interest with the state officials handing out the depredation tags.I think landowner tags are a joke and do more damage than good for the average hunter. If anything, compensate the ranchers for opening their properties for depredation hunts. Win for ranchers and sportsmen.
A good idea in theory, but lots of room for abuse there too. Like all the members of the public that get to do the depredation hunts being friends, extended families, other people the landowners know in a "you scratch my back ill scratch yours" kind of deal. Hey, ill let you do this depredation hunt on my land for such and such in return... then the general public gets no chance to do said depredation hunts, yet the landowner still gets critters killed, and is compensated by the state on top of it, and probably getting other little kickbacks from people doing the hunting. Im just speculating though. Or maybe im just talking out of my ass. But i could see it going more or less like i said.
Last year, Idaho moved a bunch of cow elk draw tags to depredation tags for landowners - in one specific area plenty of hunters wanted those tags, and plenty of hunters were very successful in harvesting elk on private lands (these tags were 15% draw odds, 60-70% harvest success). Now, those tags are doled out by the state to landowners who get to fill all the tags previously given to the general public in a random draw. I wrote/called/discussed my objections repeatedly with several state folks - but the local biologist gave me the most hilarious answer...said, hell, we gave your dad 2 of these tags, whats your problem? I just shook my head.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 22, 2020, 01:55:12 PM
Post by: dvolmer on April 22, 2020, 02:09:58 PM
Didn’t read the entire thread, so I apologize if it’s been said. But in my opinion land owners shouldn’t get paid for damage unless they allow access for hunting by a draw process and if they try to make people pay for access give them no damage money. They don’t own the animals and they should’nt be able to collect money from the state AND be able to charge fees to hunters who help out their situation. Give them an option, not their cake and eat it too.
Totally agree!
Post by: Whitenuckles on April 22, 2020, 02:51:27 PM
Judge Boldts wife was a native. How is that not bias!?Get rid of special tribal harvest. Treat everyone as equal.not possible
Post by: ridgefire on April 22, 2020, 03:14:12 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 22, 2020, 03:32:32 PM
They don’t. That comment was uninformed.Muzzleloader Take a Hit and Archery Gets more again,what does archery get more of?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Bullmoose on April 22, 2020, 04:34:28 PM
Post by: Katmai Guy on April 22, 2020, 04:41:14 PM
Post by: jstone on April 22, 2020, 04:48:56 PM
Post by: jstone on April 22, 2020, 05:06:58 PM
Post by: Pinetar on April 22, 2020, 05:13:03 PM
I don't agree with your criticism of WDFW in this case. I think, in general, the tag cuts are appropriate given the decline in numbers. I'm mostly familiar with the Blues - and there are definitely less elk than several years ago. Its not a matter of missing them or not counting them at the right time. I wish tag numbers were higher, but given the shape the elk are in, I'm glad they have cut tags.A lot of members are complaining about special permit reductions this year compared to last year (and they should). But if you want to get really sick and mad just find a copy of a 10 year old regulations and compare the reduction in the last 10 years and not just the last one! It will make you mad and then make you sick and want to hurl! They are slowly destroying Washington state big game hunting. I'm no expert but I believe that in the last 10 years we haven't had a huge surge in the number of hunters. What we have had is some terrible game management, huge increases in uncontrolled native trophy and retail meat hunting, uncontrolled wolf introduction, non-baiting bear hunting restrictions, no hound hunting for cats and bears, and a liberal government who has spent the income and resources of the sportsmen/women in this state on other social programs. the honest law abiding sportsman who is out buying a license every year and trying to keep the rules the best they can have been totally hosed! All they have done is paid a ton of money to a system that is in failure mode and gives all of its assets to non-paying and non-revenue producing special interest groups. The Average Washington State sportsman/woman has been nothing more than robbed of their resource!
I can't speak for all of the hunting special permit categories but I have been putting in for over 35 years and I have seen the following. In my quality elk choices I have seen the permits go from 17 to 3 and from 20 to 2. In my antlerless elk choices I have seen it go from 300 to 10 and from 60 to zero. In my bull elk choices it has went from 78 to 14. All of these are in Eastern Washington but not all in one area. Both the Blues and the Yakima areas are where I apply and have applied in the past. I know that this is the case for the majority of the special permits in our state. We are screwed for sure! Id like to be optimistic but I truly do not see an answer for this. Could this be fixed? YES! Will it be fixed? NO!!!! It really really wont, and that makes me sad. Some of you will say I,m a dooms-day'r, but you all just wait another 10 years and then compare the allocations and you will see that I was unfortunately right! The system is slowly eating the goose that lays their golden eggs!
WDFW and their biologist are a joke. They don't have a clue where to even go look for bulls to get their counts even close to being correct. They spend most of their time flying around the herds counting calves, cow and bulls. 99.9% of the bulls are in small bachelor groups higher then the herds in the spring and winter. By the time they get motivated and out flying around the bulls are all bedded down in the timber. HELL, last week they were out all night till daylight running around in the Taneum on sleds counting Owls, if they would get this motivated on our Elk herds they might actually realize our bull numbers are doing fine/great depending on the unit. I have even seen them several times out flying and counting bulls in April :chuckle: :chuckle:
Get out of your office and out from behind your desk and go get real life data. Twenty years ago you would see the biologist in the hills all winter/spring doing their job. Now they just sit behind their desks and push numbers around, unless they are counting Owls. :bash:
I should have clarified that I was referring to the Central WA Ellensburg units.
I do not hunt the Blues or Yakima units but have heard from some that they are hurting, not the case around here. And criticism of WDFW around here is deserved.
Post by: jdb on April 22, 2020, 05:44:39 PM
i don't know who that is or how that's relevant?Judge Boldts wife was a native. How is that not bias!?Get rid of special tribal harvest. Treat everyone as equal.not possible
Post by: dreamingbig on April 22, 2020, 06:03:14 PM
If you don’t know the Boldt decision you should read up. A good history lesson. A very bad day for WA non-native sportspersons.i don't know who that is or how that's relevant?Judge Boldts wife was a native. How is that not bias!?Get rid of special tribal harvest. Treat everyone as equal.not possible
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Post by: idahohuntr on April 22, 2020, 06:17:22 PM
Well glad to hear elk are doing well somewhere. I think I recall some discussion years ago about WDFW not getting accurate bull counts in the ellensburg area, by their own admission...And don't get me wrong, I have plenty of criticism for WDFW - just not for the tag cuts in the areas I'm familiar with.I don't agree with your criticism of WDFW in this case. I think, in general, the tag cuts are appropriate given the decline in numbers. I'm mostly familiar with the Blues - and there are definitely less elk than several years ago. Its not a matter of missing them or not counting them at the right time. I wish tag numbers were higher, but given the shape the elk are in, I'm glad they have cut tags.A lot of members are complaining about special permit reductions this year compared to last year (and they should). But if you want to get really sick and mad just find a copy of a 10 year old regulations and compare the reduction in the last 10 years and not just the last one! It will make you mad and then make you sick and want to hurl! They are slowly destroying Washington state big game hunting. I'm no expert but I believe that in the last 10 years we haven't had a huge surge in the number of hunters. What we have had is some terrible game management, huge increases in uncontrolled native trophy and retail meat hunting, uncontrolled wolf introduction, non-baiting bear hunting restrictions, no hound hunting for cats and bears, and a liberal government who has spent the income and resources of the sportsmen/women in this state on other social programs. the honest law abiding sportsman who is out buying a license every year and trying to keep the rules the best they can have been totally hosed! All they have done is paid a ton of money to a system that is in failure mode and gives all of its assets to non-paying and non-revenue producing special interest groups. The Average Washington State sportsman/woman has been nothing more than robbed of their resource!
I can't speak for all of the hunting special permit categories but I have been putting in for over 35 years and I have seen the following. In my quality elk choices I have seen the permits go from 17 to 3 and from 20 to 2. In my antlerless elk choices I have seen it go from 300 to 10 and from 60 to zero. In my bull elk choices it has went from 78 to 14. All of these are in Eastern Washington but not all in one area. Both the Blues and the Yakima areas are where I apply and have applied in the past. I know that this is the case for the majority of the special permits in our state. We are screwed for sure! Id like to be optimistic but I truly do not see an answer for this. Could this be fixed? YES! Will it be fixed? NO!!!! It really really wont, and that makes me sad. Some of you will say I,m a dooms-day'r, but you all just wait another 10 years and then compare the allocations and you will see that I was unfortunately right! The system is slowly eating the goose that lays their golden eggs!
WDFW and their biologist are a joke. They don't have a clue where to even go look for bulls to get their counts even close to being correct. They spend most of their time flying around the herds counting calves, cow and bulls. 99.9% of the bulls are in small bachelor groups higher then the herds in the spring and winter. By the time they get motivated and out flying around the bulls are all bedded down in the timber. HELL, last week they were out all night till daylight running around in the Taneum on sleds counting Owls, if they would get this motivated on our Elk herds they might actually realize our bull numbers are doing fine/great depending on the unit. I have even seen them several times out flying and counting bulls in April :chuckle: :chuckle:
Get out of your office and out from behind your desk and go get real life data. Twenty years ago you would see the biologist in the hills all winter/spring doing their job. Now they just sit behind their desks and push numbers around, unless they are counting Owls. :bash:
I should have clarified that I was referring to the Central WA Ellensburg units.
I do not hunt the Blues or Yakima units but have heard from some that they are hurting, not the case around here. And criticism of WDFW around here is deserved.
Post by: Tbar on April 22, 2020, 06:38:42 PM
News flash to all of you historians, Boldt is a fishing specific decision.If you don’t know the Boldt decision you should read up. A good history lesson. A very bad day for WA non-native sportspersons.i don't know who that is or how that's relevant?Judge Boldts wife was a native. How is that not bias!?Get rid of special tribal harvest. Treat everyone as equal.not possible
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Post by: dreamingbig on April 22, 2020, 09:52:00 PM
I didn’t specify hunting vs fishing and all I said was read about it. Look you are on the good side. I would like to be on the good side too. Instead I was born in this state and get to pay a bunch of money into a resource that I don’t get to share in equally. It bums me out.News flash to all of you historians, Boldt is a fishing specific decision.If you don’t know the Boldt decision you should read up. A good history lesson. A very bad day for WA non-native sportspersons.i don't know who that is or how that's relevant?Judge Boldts wife was a native. How is that not bias!?Get rid of special tribal harvest. Treat everyone as equal.not possible
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Post by: Tbar on April 22, 2020, 09:55:04 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 22, 2020, 10:08:35 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200423/1b6037703c1aee620fe62b9809b01cbf.jpg)
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Post by: trophyhunt on April 23, 2020, 05:48:57 AM
Post by: Onewhohikes on April 23, 2020, 05:51:20 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 23, 2020, 06:19:29 AM
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Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 23, 2020, 06:48:53 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 23, 2020, 08:45:34 AM
What role was that?I give up. Back to quality tags and the fact that we don’t have many any more.
Unfortunately the situation is not going to change.
OTC is basically gone. They should just punt to 💯 draw.
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Post by: Slamadoo on April 23, 2020, 09:32:06 AM
I am not trying to peddle conspiracy theories here, I am just saying that I highly value our general seasons and my ability to go out every year. If sportsmen think it is difficult to recruit new hunters now, I don't see moving to a draw only system as helping that. Also, even if we went draw only to try and revive our herds or to increase hunter success, that isn't going to prevent other user groups from continuing to abuse the resource or take advantage of whatever surplus game is created by the draw only.
Back to quality permit numbers. They suck. It sucks. The situation sucks. Quality permit numbers aren't the only reason I hunt though.
Post by: sagerat on April 23, 2020, 09:32:16 PM
I hope they never punt to draw only. I for one would never support that and I would fight tooth and nail to retain our general seasons. Some would argue that making the situation so bad that hunters quit, or become agreeable to a draw only system is part of the larger strategy. Divide and conquer.
I am not trying to peddle conspiracy theories here, I am just saying that I highly value our general seasons and my ability to go out every year. If sportsmen think it is difficult to recruit new hunters now, I don't see moving to a draw only system as helping that. Also, even if we went draw only to try and revive our herds or to increase hunter success, that isn't going to prevent other user groups from continuing to abuse the resource or take advantage of whatever surplus game is created by the draw only.
Back to quality permit numbers. They suck. It sucks. The situation sucks. Quality permit numbers aren't the only reason I hunt though.
I agree, permit only is Not the answer
Post by: BoomWhop on May 21, 2020, 09:05:42 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on May 21, 2020, 09:08:24 AM
Boy it really hit home putting in for permits last night....Ouch Elk have joined Sheep, Moose etc. Most likely not in your lifetime. Why would anyone with less than 10 points put in other than just for the fun of dreaming. I guess the move is to hunt the NE corner or Wet side for branched antlered. I wonder how the hunting pressure is going to increase as people give up on the quality permits.
Its all a lottery with super low odds irregardless of if you have 2 points or 20 points. :twocents:
Post by: Stein on May 21, 2020, 10:00:57 AM
Post by: Dan-o on May 21, 2020, 11:35:58 AM
Boy it really hit home putting in for permits last night....Ouch Elk have joined Sheep, Moose etc. Most likely not in your lifetime. Why would anyone with less than 10 points put in other than just for the fun of dreaming. I guess the move is to hunt the NE corner or Wet side for branched antlered. I wonder how the hunting pressure is going to increase as people give up on the quality permits.
Totally agree.
It was only a handful of years ago when you had a decent chance to draw a bull permit with a handful of points. Now it's basically an OIL.
:twocents:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on May 21, 2020, 11:48:25 AM
Post by: WSU on May 21, 2020, 11:50:45 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on May 21, 2020, 11:53:03 AM
Post by: WSU on May 21, 2020, 11:53:57 AM
Post by: Stein on May 21, 2020, 11:58:40 AM
Problem is theres no quality or quantity
There must be more quality, the cost is higher than the bull category. :chuckle:
Post by: fishngamereaper on May 21, 2020, 12:02:26 PM
Problem is theres no quality or quantity
Guess it depends on what your gauge is.
I think calling in 10-12 bulls a day in that 280-300 class with a couple being 320-330 or a little better is a quality day.
I guess my experiences and knowledge of some of the herds is different than other peoples. :twocents:
For those few people that draw its going to be a heck of hunt.
Post by: buglebrush on May 21, 2020, 12:22:17 PM
If they ever limit people to one draw category per year I'll be back in.
Post by: Bowhunter3 on May 21, 2020, 12:33:18 PM
Doesn’t matter. More categories = more money.
They gotta pay for that new gillnetting boat somehow :dunno:
Post by: TriggerMike on May 21, 2020, 12:36:49 PM
Post by: Stein on May 21, 2020, 12:45:18 PM
Is there anyway out of this hole that we're in now? Even 5-10 years ago it was exponentially better in WA. They keep citing low calf recruitment for the last 3-4 years as the culprit, what is causing the calf recruitment to be so low?
Good questions, many of us would like to see WDFW address that.
Post by: cb1989 on May 21, 2020, 01:03:29 PM
Is there anyway out of this hole that we're in now? Even 5-10 years ago it was exponentially better in WA. They keep citing low calf recruitment for the last 3-4 years as the culprit, what is causing the calf recruitment to be so low?
Similar to asking why are salmon numbers down. There's 500 reasons why and everybody has their favorite. Some guys will even tell you calf recruitment isn't down, but that's almost always based on personal observation which tends to be localized and is about like making conclusions about the whole world from the top of a tree.
Post by: Rainier10 on May 22, 2020, 10:31:47 AM
Is there anyway out of this hole that we're in now? Even 5-10 years ago it was exponentially better in WA. They keep citing low calf recruitment for the last 3-4 years as the culprit, what is causing the calf recruitment to be so low?I feel like bears, cats and coyotes put a dent in calf recruitment but I also feel like I would see way more small bones if 10-20 calves were getting eaten in my area. I don't see a huge number of bones or carcasses so that makes me a little skeptical that they are getting eaten. Maybe when they are that small the predators eat bones and all. :dunno:
Post by: Bango skank on May 22, 2020, 10:50:04 AM
Is there anyway out of this hole that we're in now? Even 5-10 years ago it was exponentially better in WA. They keep citing low calf recruitment for the last 3-4 years as the culprit, what is causing the calf recruitment to be so low?I feel like bears, cats and coyotes put a dent in calf recruitment but I also feel like I would see way more small bones if 10-20 calves were getting eaten in my area. I don't see a huge number of bones or carcasses so that makes me a little skeptical that they are getting eaten. Maybe when they are that small the predators eat bones and all. :dunno:
Cats eat most bones even from full grown deer
Post by: Rainier10 on May 22, 2020, 11:22:06 AM
:tup: That would make sense.Is there anyway out of this hole that we're in now? Even 5-10 years ago it was exponentially better in WA. They keep citing low calf recruitment for the last 3-4 years as the culprit, what is causing the calf recruitment to be so low?I feel like bears, cats and coyotes put a dent in calf recruitment but I also feel like I would see way more small bones if 10-20 calves were getting eaten in my area. I don't see a huge number of bones or carcasses so that makes me a little skeptical that they are getting eaten. Maybe when they are that small the predators eat bones and all. :dunno:
Cats eat most bones even from full grown deer
Post by: Mr Mykiss on May 28, 2020, 05:38:57 PM
Post by: dvolmer on May 28, 2020, 07:53:18 PM
How about “juvenile bull” tags like they do for sheep?That’s called spike hunting.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on May 29, 2020, 06:14:08 AM
Post by: dvolmer on May 29, 2020, 12:29:23 PM
Silly zonk. That’s the “baby bull” draw categoryHa! Ha!! Ha!!!
Post by: dreamingbig on May 29, 2020, 12:46:25 PM
Unbiased view given Dan doesn’t spend a lot of time on WA elk.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/elkshape/id1315352438?i=1000476158686 (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/elkshape/id1315352438?i=1000476158686)
Post by: huntnphool on May 29, 2020, 12:49:04 PM
Didn’t read the entire thread, so I apologize if it’s been said. But in my opinion land owners shouldn’t get paid for damage unless they allow access for hunting by a draw process and if they try to make people pay for access give them no damage money. They don’t own the animals and they should’nt be able to collect money from the state AND be able to charge fees to hunters who help out their situation. Give them an option, not their cake and eat it too.
Nor should those land owners receive tags that they can “give out”! :rolleyes: