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Author Topic: Bighorns dying  (Read 17217 times)

Offline popeshawnpaul

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2009, 05:44:02 PM »
Every scientist I can think of says it is.  Back in college I did a story and photo layout for a few magazines on this issue.  Back then, these herds were all doing well though.  There are numerous examples of intermixing and whole herds dying shortly thereafter.  They die from pneumonia.  WSU has a whole research facility dedicated to finding a cure for the bighorns.  It's like evolution however, I guess there might be some out there that says it isn't true.  Here is some good reading...

http://www.kidk.com/news/local/8355107.html
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 05:54:23 PM by popeshawnpaul »

Offline runamuk

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2009, 05:55:01 PM »
Lions are not a bigger issue.  Whole herds of 60+ are getting wiped out.  I have a minor in Range Management, and I'm ok with grazing and even public land allotments.  However, domestic sheep have no place being close to bighorns.

The adults die from the disease, but sometimes they don't and they harbor the disease.  They then pass it on to the young who are susceptible and the young all die.  When the adults all die eventually, the population is not replenishing themselves.  This is a huge problem all over, not just in Hell's Canyon and the Blue Mountains.  This just happens to be one of the best place for the sheep and they are all dead or dying.  We use to give out 10+ permits down in the southeast corner of the state and now we give out 1.  The whole population is gone.  It has been suggested we kill all the bighorns and start over re-populating the area.  At this point it might be the best idea.  These areas and Hell's Canyon weren't even at carrying capacity for sheep.  This area can hold tons of big rams.  History has shown us that this is one of the best habitats for sheep there in North America. 

Who do we write to?  Let's start with our game agencies.  But most of them know the problems.  They make big money off sheep and they are controlled by our politicians.  We need to write our politicians in Idaho, Oregon, and Washington.  At this point, the specific people should be determined and we need to start fixing this problem.  I need to invite someone with more statisitics and information on the issue to this thread.  Maybe we can get Ramslam on here and see if he can help us discuss the issue further.  I have further information I can provide if I go look at some of my sources.  The last time I heard, Idaho was dragging their feet the most.  I just want people to be aware of this issue.  I like elk, but no matter how many the tribes kill we still have tons of elk in this state.  Bighorns, however, are limited and we lost about half the population and nobody blinked an eye.   :twocents:

Hey Pope which disease are we talking about?  I'd watch the video but at the moment it is loud in my house and our headphones died....
I lived in Idaho, I raised sheep, I knew sheep ranchers and I know that sheep are sheep are sheep so bighorns are not immune to domestic sheep issues.  I'd like to know which disease we are talking about.  Makes it easier to propose ideas solutions and people to write to. ;)

Idaho is one of the bigger lamb producers in the country so I can see the foot dragging also land leases in Idaho are huge business.

Offline jackelope

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2009, 05:57:36 PM »
pneumonia
:fire.:

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Offline Red Dawg

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2009, 05:59:33 PM »
I got nothing. I am with ya just wanted to know where the research is coming from. Besides the fact that sheep carry diseases and such they will destroy habitat in nothing flat. When sheep eat they use there teeth to bite down and they take forage all the way down under the soil many times and kill plants, and cattle use there tongue and wrap it around forage thus only eating the tops of forage. This will amuse some of you, Illinois is the one of the top consumers of lamb and goat meat.

Offline runamuk

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2009, 06:00:41 PM »
pneumonia


hmmm there are several causes of pneumonia in sheep..... viral, bacterial, etc...would help me out...

Offline boneaddict

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2009, 06:09:38 PM »
Its a bacteria or bacterium.  I believe it was a mycoplasma.  Similiar to our Mycoplasma Pneumonia if I remember right.

Offline runamuk

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2009, 06:12:16 PM »
Its a bacteria or bacterium.  I believe it was a mycoplasma.  Similiar to our Mycoplasma Pneumonia if I remember right.

thanks Bone that helps.....

Offline popeshawnpaul

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2009, 06:18:40 PM »
Sorry, cooking dinner.  I should have been more accurate.  They don't get a disease.  They get the bacteria that causes pneaumonia and the bighorns die.  Domestics don't die from it.

Offline Red Dawg

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2009, 06:29:10 PM »
ya pneumonia is normaly a secondary disease depending on the enviroment they live in. We loose tons of livestock every year to this but not as many since we are able to treat them and keep stress away from infected animals. Obviously it is nearly impossible to do this with wild game of any kind. But like I said before sheep of all kinds are week animals and will die from anything. I do support your idea though and would be glad to help in any way I can.

Offline popeshawnpaul

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2009, 06:58:43 PM »
I really don't think it is that much of a hardship to not have domestic sheep near bighorns.  We can grow sheep in Iowa or some other non-bighorn state.  Is it really that much of a hardship to grow cattle instead of sheep?  It's just that the livestock industry is so powerful.  I don't want this to be an anti livestock/grazing thread.  I'm not for that.  There are benefits to that and I have studied that at length.  I'm just saying keep the domestic sheep away from bighorns. 

I think I just lost it today.  Seeing the dying lambs here and there drives me nuts.  The Hell's Canyon region could have 10,000 bighorns, but currently we have 900 at most.  Imagine how many hunting permits we could have with 10,000 bighorns?  There are indian paintings on rocks with bighorns in that region.  They use to be very prevalent.  It frustrates me when people are so worked up about 40 elk and hundreds of sheep are dying.  Where are the priorities?  I say someone on one of the indian threads say they better not go up and kill a sheep...  They die every day on highway 97 and from pneumonia.  Are you really worried about a tribal member going and killing 1 sheep?  I guess I would, but let's look at the big picture. 

Offline runamuk

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2009, 06:59:27 PM »
Pope not sure if you ran across this in your research....

http://www.mwvcrc.org/bighorn/3Gonzales.pdf

http://www.mwvcrc.org/bighorn/3Besser.pdf

http://www.biotechnology.wsu.edu/participating_faculty/subramaniam_srikumaran.html

It appears this issue is known to the scientific and wildlife community and is being studied.  
I'd say letter writing supporting the continued work/research towards answers and possible solutions is in order.

http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs/rmrs_gtr209.pdf

Sheep actually are not as stupid or weak as many believe, they are just different so some pathogens can cause major problems and there aren't many specialists in the field of sheep.  Idaho has a great sheep program as does Montana and Cornell, and Oregon.  Thats it 4 universities with some specialization in sheep.  There are other researchers at other universities with interest but sheep are a pretty specialized species with a low value for spending.... this goes for domestic and wild. I think Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming are the largest sheep producers.  Most of the US sheep products come from new zealand.  

Anyway I may write a few of these researchers and try to learn more about what can be done and what is being done.

Offline boneaddict

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2009, 07:23:32 PM »
I think the fact that the 40 elk are 350+ animals.  Not alot of those around either in this fair state, and the fact that this was managed for trophy and we were allowed 3 tags or something like that.  Its also the big picture for me with 50 bighorns versus our 20, and so on and so on. Fish, deer etc. It also might be driven home when they walk up and shoot brownbutt and chocolate tomorrow because they can.   Also, it seems that we are trying to do something inregards to the sheep, but unfortunatley we don't ahve all the answers.  Some could argue that thousands die from cancer so who cares about a stupid sheep. 

Offline DOUBLELUNG

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2009, 07:39:26 PM »
The epizootic pneumonia outbreaks in bighorn sheep are caused by Pasteurella haemolytica, which evolved with Old World sheep, and which is endemic in them (both wild and domestic species) and causes no major disease issues for them.  New World sheep lack exposure and immunity to P. haemolytica, and once exposed can remain dormant in individuals until they are stressed; then the disease breaks out, is highly infectious, and will kill 50-90+% of a bighorn herd.  So far, no bighorns have developed immunity, though after 140 years of exposure some are more resistant than others (that just means the outbreaks and die-offs are less frequent).  Outbreaks kill all sex and age classes.

A second cause is lungworm, also an Old World sheep disease, which also causes pneumonia.  In herds with lungworm, lambs will be born and adults aren't usually affected - but all or most lambs will die before winter.  Herds eventually blink out as the adults die and aren't replaced. 

So far, the only effective measure is spatial separation.  Even then, when subadult rams wander and disperse, they often come into contact domestic sheep or goats, and then present the danger they will bringthe infection to a bighorn herd.  Thus, most of not all wild sheep states' wildlife agencies have policies that bighorns that contact domestic sheep should be killed ASAP (or, in the case of WA, killed if they cannot be captured and quarantined). 

There's no state law against having domestic sheep in an occupied bighorn range, unfortunately.  Forest Service and BLM both have policies that are supposed to prevent commingling, but then politics creep into the mix.
As long as we have the habitat, we can argue forever about who gets to kill what and when.  No habitat = no game.

Offline popeshawnpaul

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2009, 07:44:09 PM »
Runamuk, I know there are a bunch that deny the problem as one caused by domestic sheep.  I've looked at the research and the real world examples.  There are too many examples of herds doing well, they intermingle, then they all die.  Like I said, it's like the topic of evolution.  If you choose to turn your head at where the science is pointing, you can do that.  I can say the grazing constituents are strong and like to throw a wrench in the spoke.  I have read much of what Besser has said and the issue is fairly clear.  This issue was being studied 15 years ago, and the consensus then was domestic sheep caused the problems.  We are still researching it and can forever.  The point is that when you put domestic sheep and bighorns in the same pen, the bighorns die.  I can't tell you the exact reason why, but they do.  That's all the research I need. 

Offline runamuk

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Re: Bighorns dying
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2009, 07:51:32 PM »
The epizootic pneumonia outbreaks in bighorn sheep are caused by Pasteurella haemolytica, which evolved with Old World sheep, and which is endemic in them (both wild and domestic species) and causes no major disease issues for them.  New World sheep lack exposure and immunity to P. haemolytica, and once exposed can remain dormant in individuals until they are stressed; then the disease breaks out, is highly infectious, and will kill 50-90+% of a bighorn herd.  So far, no bighorns have developed immunity, though after 140 years of exposure some are more resistant than others (that just means the outbreaks and die-offs are less frequent).  Outbreaks kill all sex and age classes.

A second cause is lungworm, also an Old World sheep disease, which also causes pneumonia.  In herds with lungworm, lambs will be born and adults aren't usually affected - but all or most lambs will die before winter.  Herds eventually blink out as the adults die and aren't replaced. 

So far, the only effective measure is spatial separation.  Even then, when subadult rams wander and disperse, they often come into contact domestic sheep or goats, and then present the danger they will bringthe infection to a bighorn herd.  Thus, most of not all wild sheep states' wildlife agencies have policies that bighorns that contact domestic sheep should be killed ASAP (or, in the case of WA, killed if they cannot be captured and quarantined). 

There's no state law against having domestic sheep in an occupied bighorn range, unfortunately.  Forest Service and BLM both have policies that are supposed to prevent commingling, but then politics creep into the mix.

Out of curiosity...have they tried treating for lungworm?  I don't mean entire populations obviously but in a research environment or in a small isolated population.  Lungworm can be controlled with ivermectin so I am kinda curious.

I also wonder why after 140 years of exposure they have not developed immunity or more resistance, interesting....

I found this (note the date)

"J Wildl Dis, 1997 Oct, 33(4), 738 - 48
Evaluation of a multivalent Pasteurella haemolytica vaccine in bighorn sheep: safety and serologic responses"

"Our data demonstrate that this multivalent P . haemolytica vaccine is safe and stimulates marked antibody responses in bighorn sheep . Further evaluation of this vaccine as a tool in preventing and managing pasteurellosis in bighorn sheep appears warranted."

http://www.bionewsonline.com/x/2/pasteurella_b.htm


 


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