Lead shot ban in WA for Upland birds, small game, turkeys?!

[ICEMAN]

After some rest to think about it....I guess my concerns are;

I really don't trust any wildlife official anymore. I don't.

*When they sit idly by and watch as poaching (both tribal and non-tribal) is decimating certain herds in this state....

*As they mismanage game herds to the point of huge starvation die offs...

*As they rise to the occasion to side with non-hunters on various occasions, opting to eliminate hunting as a form of legitimate game management... knee jerk reactions....crappy legislation suggestion and support...

I have lost faith in these folks.

I am supposed to trust that they will do what is right?

As far as I am concerned, you could save more wildlife by trashing two thirds of the employees of wildlife who spend their time trying to "figure" things out, "reinvent the wheel"........ and quadruple (###) the enforcement officers who actually "do" something.  Enforce the laws we already have.

Lead may be killing a few animals in this state, but I would suggest that poaching takes far more. I am really tired of having to adjust everything that I do, as those who screw the laws laugh and continue breaking laws.

(And, I appreciate all your viewpoints...am not considering any of this a personal "fight", just a good open discussion from all... we need to keep issues like these open, in my opinion...)

(*** Rasbo, quadruple means; Four times as much in size....times 4.....  X4....your ring finger...)

 

[Roper]

Here's my last comments on this and then I'll get back to my business....

My comment about "where's all the dead bodies?" means where are the remains that these scientists base their comments on? "Where's the beef?" to recall and old commercial question. The smoking gun... whatever you wish to call it. And from Washington, not California...

I hope you're all right and Washington doesn't kill a sporting lifestyle for some birds that left here long ago. Maybe in this time of economic woes we don't need more negative impact. Bought any non-tox lately? $$$$$

Lastly, I'm not holding my breath when daily it's shown that most politicians are little more than egotistical liars that will do or say anything to get elected or re-elected.

Happy hunting...

[trotterlg]

The way to fix this is to make it apply to ALL ammo, even for law enforcement personnel, think that would pass the Governor or even get to her?  Larry

[ICEMAN]

The way to fix this is to make it apply to ALL ammo, even for law enforcement personnel, think that would pass the Governor or even get to her?  Larry

Law enforecement can use their cell phone while driving, use their laptop computer while driving, drive over the posted limit....I am not sure they would ban lead for law enforcement....

Oh....wait....if it costs more....they would do that.....(almost forgot we were talking about the government)..... Sorry. 

[Mauser]

Just on a related topic. . . the Washington State Department of Ecology is spearheading a program to get rid of lead in hunting bullets. They have been taking comments for some time so I don't know if they still are taking them or not.

[AWS]

I had to start using steel shot for waterfowl in the mid 70's in MN and never had a problem with it, it works everybit as well as lead for me.  We've eliminated lead in gas and paint, many indor ranges have been lead free for a long time.  The steel shot we have now is very good stuff, I've personally switched to steel and non-toxics for all my upland shooting years ago.  The only thing I dislike is the cost of non-toxics for my old Browning, LC Smith and Lefever, luckily I stocked up on Bismuth and tungstan-matrix shells while they were still reasonable.  One thing nice about using non-toxics all the time you never have to worry about a stray lead shell getting into your waterfowl gear and that mallard that jumps while your working a ditch for pheasants is now fair game.

This past year I started working up loads for my coyote guns with all copper or lead free bullets and see no problems with them either but will continue to use lead for them till the ban is set.

Times change.

AWS

[ICEMAN]

AWS, you going to throw away all your lead ammo if it is outlawed?

[AWS]

No, I only have skeet and trap loads left, even there I'll be switching to steel.  I shot up about 20 boxes of steel 7's on trap and skeet that Winchester was experimenting in the early 80's.  They worked fine on 16yard trap and skeet.  I'm seeing some steel 7's on the shelf again and they should be fine for doves and quail, steel 6's have been great for pheasants and grouse over my dog.  On pheasants I usually backup the first shot with a #4.

AWS

[ICEMAN]

I guess my biggest gripe is the voodoo behind these types of changes. A condor study in california produces a result which impacts people everywhere? Are any field mice munching on the plastic wadding or spent shells....and is this causing disruptions in their digestive tracts? It wont end. I find more latex and mylar balloons in the woods than spent casings, dont see anyone trying to outlaw balloons. In my opinion, (call me a wacko' conspiracy theorist...) many of these efforts are designed specifically to systematically remove guns from society. Thats how I view many of these studies/changes.

[Mauser]

I think it interesting that a "study" can find one fault with a problem. It smells of junk science. The original condor population problem centered on DDT making the egg shells soft and getting crushed in the nest as well as habitat loss. Habitat was set aside, DDT banned and the population rebounded. There are now more Condors in the wild than in captivity. I believe that is good. Now, however, there is this lead issue. Forget the other attributes associated with Condors, focus on lead. Then, there is a scientific Assumption that if this is a problem with the condor that it follows all species will be/are effected in the same way. A lot of "research" is funded by special interest groups that have a stated outcome in mind before they will fund the project. People doing this "research" have to eat, so they argee to ignore anything that would get results other than those desired. This is not a guess on my part, I have seen it happen.

I seriously doubt the "proof" as presented. There are too many other factors that effect the Condor and any other species. DDT, habitat, now lead; what's next and will we expected to believe the next study too. It seems we have another spotted owl.

[AWS]

The problem is that it's just a few condors dieing that is generating the legislation and it's coming out of Kookyfornia.  People were saying the samething about the lead ban on waterfowl when it was proposed, most hunters had never seen a duck that died of lead ingestion because nature has a pretty good cleanup system.

I used to smoke, doctors and athletes used say there was nothing wrong with it.  I now have to carry an inhaler with me and long calling series on a duck or predator call end with a coughing spell.

I worked in the insulation field for the past 15 years and a lot of the oldtimers were dieing of lung cancer from asbestos.  I used to use it a lot when I was a young carpenter, I worry about that.

Shotshells are the cheapest part of upland hunting.  I saw a lot of hunters that didn't think anything about road hunting on $4.00/gallon gas but get pissed at the thought of paying more for a box of shells.

I'm not a Eco-freak but we've screwed up enough time in the past that a simple thing like changing to steel shot or leadfree bullets might make a difference, it was an easy decision for me.

AWS

[Mauser]

There is more cost involved than a $38.00,(28 ga. busimith) box of shells. Most older fixed choke guns have a problem with steel. I personally shot the chokes out of a nice over and under when steel first arrived on the shooting scene. We were told that steel wouldn't hurt a thing, then the bulges started appearing in the barrels directly behind the chokes. In addition many screw-in chokes are not recommended for steel. Yes, steel is cheap to purchase but the costs down the road are not.

My point was that the "research" that everyone is quoting has not been presented and it has not been backed by repeat studies from other sources. That is the solid scientific approach to make sure you have not overlooked the real problem. I am not green enough to let special interest groups ram their "studies" down my hunting throat just because. They need to show the evidence to prove their claim and then let others also prove it.

I have read - but cannot prove- that there are a couple of Condors with lead issues. Yet, no one has proven that it came directly from bullets. There are huge amounts of lead in old garbage dumps, in lakes from fishing weights andalong roads from wheel weights. Yet, hunting is the focus. Everyone that hunts should at least be suspect of that kind of science.

[sisu]

...
 In addition many screw-in chokes are not recommended for steel...

Here is a company that makes steel ready chokes
http://www.choketube.com/

Ans I know of another. If you Google different site I believe you'll find other companies that make steel ready chokes. I had several older shotguns changed over to this and am happy with the results.

[Mauser]

I am aware of Carlson choke tubes and use them in some shotguns. However, they do not make 28 ga. chokes. The one company that does wants a little over $200. for a set. Older fixed choke guns simply become wall hangers unless you think they are worth cutting the barrels and threading for chokes or ordering a new barrel if they are available for the model. There are  a lot of hidden costs that go directly to hunters and no one else with this move. In contrast, notice that not much is being said anywhere about the lead in the batteries of hybrid cars. I guess that lead is "greener" than hunting lead. I do realize that those batteries are intended to be recycled but then lead at shooting ranges is also reclaimed.

[Wenatcheejay]

All I know is I want some of those eagles to hunt wolves with. I guess when they ban the bullets and ban the guns I will have to hunt with birds.