Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?

[BGLEMIN]

Shooting too many doe "hurts populations".

Targeting a particular genetic phenotype, the physical expression of the genotype, like 3x's of 4x's creates a bottleneck of the genotype of a population to represent the phenotype of traits not targeted.

[pianoman9701]

It doesn't sound like it's the 3 pt. rule which is hurting the population. It sounds like the penalty for shooting an unqualified animal isn't strong enough or being enforced enough. Make it hurt and most people will be more careful. I applaud people who've turned themselves in but they still shot an animal without properly identifying it. Know your target and what lies beyond it.

[bobcat]

It's not just the 3 point minimum rule, it's the fact that the number of hunters is unlimited. What would be much better is to cut the number of hunters in half and eliminate the 3 point restriction.

[Curly]

The problem in this state is game is managed by popular opinion and politics.......not by biology and scientific study.

Can you imagine being a biologist for WDFW?  I'm sure they do studies and make recommendations based on their studies and then their recommendations get shot down either by the wildlife commission or hunters or the wacko PETA types.  Their hands are tied.

[hunter_sean08]

My family has been hunting the Chiwawa for over 50 years now. For me, I've only been hunting for 13 years, but I've seen a difference. What I will say is that most of the bucks we see are typically 3 pt or better, so in that regard, I think the rule has been pretty good. When my Dad tells me that all they used to see and shoot were 2 pts and spikes back in the days before the rule changed, I find myself pretty fortunate. So does he. With that said, the first couple of years I hunted the area, we'd see more deer than we knew what to do with. Every draw had deer in it, it was just a matter of putting a good stalk plan together. I remember seeing upwards of 75 deer in one day back in 2005 and thinking wow, this is awesome. Then 2006 came around and all of a sudden, it was like a light switch flicked. We'd see deer but nothing like we saw in the previous couple years. Our low point was probably 2009, when we did get a nice buck, but it was 1 of maybe 3 deer we saw in 3 days of hunting. We still haven't seen a season quite like '04 or '05 up there.

Has there been an uptick in hunters in the area over the years? Yes, at least in the areas we've been hunting. I'd argue that number will start dropping as costs continue to increase, but people know there are trophies in Chelan County. Plenty of the more financially fortunate will continue to hunt the area especially since it's a stone's throw away from Seattle. They've had no problem gobbling up Lake Wenatchee parcels for millions of dollars.

Has there been an increase in predators? Yes, plenty of cats, I've seen the bear chasing fawns before, and I know the wolves are around.

Have the winters been too tough? I don't think we've had too many tough winters historically speaking in the last decade, but when you have a cooler spring and the snowpack lingers in places like Entiat or the Swakane, you see the tough winterkill (see this last winter/spring). Not to mention, you've got shed hunters going into the valleys as early as February, working these tired deer to death.

Has the 3pt rule hurt genetics? Tough to say in some parts of the area because obviously there is some hybridization going on with the blacktails near the PCT. We've taken some nice mulies the last couple years that really had good genes though, and obviously when you see the migration in full swing, the toads start to emerge. It's just not always easy to find the really big ones when the country is hairy and they have thousands of places to hide that no one has ever hunted. I think this is an argument that's easier to make on the other side of the Columbia where the deer don't migrate and have fewer places to hide. When all the big bucks get harvested, it's hard for the herd to pass on the good genes to future generations. At that point you're relying on private land to protect a lot of them.

My thought is that the 3pt rule has been great for the most part, but there are many other forces that are impacting mule deer. Look around, it's not just WA that is going through this problem. Most Western states are seeing declines in muley populations. They aren't good at adapting to human expansion and habitat encroachment like the whitetails are. They give birth to less fawns than whitetails do. When they have to cross major highways to get back and forth between their summer and winter grounds, they're going to take a hit. The weather can be a problem.. Predators are a problem.. Massive wildfires in their wintering range are a temporary, but big problem in the short-term.. Add in the several thousands of hunters that flock from all parts of WA, it doesn't always help, although I believe effective management via hunting is what will keep their populations healthy.

Maybe "effective management" means we'd be better off going to a permit only hunt for mule deer in some areas. I think it will take years of research to decide what's right (WDFW groan), but if it means my future kids and grandchildren and great-grandchildren have a chance to hunt the same animals I've been privileged of hunting for the better part of my life, then I'm all for it. Sorry to write an essay but this seems to be a pretty big topic in camp every year.

Good luck to all the special permit holders.

[gunnarnewt]

I have said for years that mule deer should be by permit only. I love hunting them, but I would rather have a chance at a bruiser and see less blaze orange than hunt every year. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm more into quality than quantity personally. Same down here, we have some seriously huge 2 points running around spreading their genes. They need to be taken out!

[Mr Mykiss]

I have said for years that mule deer should be by permit only. I love hunting them, but I would rather have a chance at a bruiser and see less blaze orange than hunt every year. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm more into quality than quantity personally. Same down here, we have some seriously huge 2 points running around spreading their genes. They need to be taken out!

[Mr Mykiss]

"Our deer populations are managed for opportunity, not for quality" -WDFW

[MTMule]

People only see small deer for a reason.  For some reason it's just not in peoples thought process that younger Deer are dumber and are more likely to allow themselves to be seen.

3 pt rule is great. Giant mature two points is an exception, not a rule. You can't sit Back and pretend that's common.

It's shame they got rid of the 4pt rule in those two units for whitetail. All the locals could see it working.

[bobcat]

"Our deer populations are managed for opportunity, not for quality" -WDFW

Translation: We manage for the most deer tags that can possibly be sold.

[Mr Mykiss]

"Our deer populations are managed for opportunity, not for quality" -WDFW

Translation: We manage for the most deer tags that can possibly be sold.

Translation: We all about dat money!!

[Hunterman]

I have sat here and read all 5 pages in this post, and folks here have some almost good ideas, but not one person could see the ONE real problem on this "3 POINT RULE". The state needs to get rid of this stupid ass eye guard garbage. If this state wants this 3 point rule, then make it a "MAIN FRAME" 3 point. No eye guards in the count. No 1 inch eye guard.  As far as this mistake of shooting a 2 point that I thought was a 3 point because it had an eye guard would come to an end.

As far as the season goes. Make it the same as the rest of the deer season. If the hunters have more time to hunt, then they just MIGHT take their time on the shot. My dad and I never hunted our mule deer area until the last week of October to the first week of November, and rarely did we see anyone.

Just something to think about.

Hunterman(Tony)

[dmoua]

I think the idea of a draw system for 2x2 mule deers is probably the best solution. I love hunting mule deer every year and would hate to have it go to an all draw system. We already have enough regulations on hunting in Wa state. We don't need anymore. There are big mule deer out there. People just need to get out and hike farther, hunt longer, and actually hunt.

[buckfvr]

It's not just the 3 point minimum rule, it's the fact that the number of hunters is unlimited. What would be much better is to cut the number of hunters in half and eliminate the 3 point restriction.

Even half the hunters would nearly eliminate all the young bucks to the point of entire age class of animals being all but gone.  Half the hunters AND 3point rule at least until some improvement in over all herd size is notable.

THings are going just about as planned by politically charged wdfw......Im of the opinion predators will eventually get ungulate herds protected and be the end of hunting.  Virtually everywhere we went in the Kettles for mulies had copious amounts of wolf crap to go along with either howling and or actual sightings.

I also dont think many hunters have a good idea of what they are seeing and what they should expect to see, let alone what some of us who are a bit older have seen in the past. 

Make no mistake about it, the good old days are behind us and the very people who are charged with management of our wild resources could give a rats arse, they are all just in full blown pension protection, dont rock the boat mode.  It will get much worse before it ever changes direction.  We need a public oversight committee to manage wdfw and they would need the power to hire and fire the management.  The committee would rotate persons by the half every two years for transparency.   

[gunnarnewt]

Quote from: Mr Mykiss on Today at 09:29:58 AM

"Our deer populations are managed for opportunity, not for quality" -WDFW




Translation: We manage for the most deer tags that can possibly be sold.