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Author Topic: Final mountain goat management plan for Olympic National Park released  (Read 1880 times)

Offline Katmai Guy

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It's a shame what they will be doing in the park, but they need to stay the hell in the park and leave the goats that reside out of the NP alone.  Not theirs to do with!!
"Keep shootin, when there's lead in the air, there's hope"

Offline 520backyard

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And this is hardly a new campaign by the NPS. The difference this time is they want them ALL gone from the Olympic national parks.

As described in Chapter 4, the 1990 estimate of goat numbers in the metapopulation (389 ア 106) was significantly lower than the 1983 estimate (1,175 ア 171). The smaller 1990 population resulted from removals by the National Park Service, perhaps combined with relatively more severe winters

https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/science/25/chap14.htm

So assuming a 20% mortality rate as a result of severe winters, the NPS "removed"  630 mountain goats in 7 years between 1983 and 1990.
And if those 630 Mountain goats that were "removed" and if they were relocated and assuming a 8% normal reproduction rate then there should be 1400 more mountain goats in 28 years and that is not taking into account the reproduction rate of the offspring of that 1400. So I guess the question is where are all those offspring of the mountain goats that were removed?
Swim hell, the fall will kill ya.

Offline jackelope

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I just read this on the website and I just shake my head.

I知 not sure how many goats reside or wander out of the park but 6 permits seems like a small number. Why not up the permits and get more hunters out there and save us some tax dollars from multiple helicopter trips. I知 not sure how effective it would be but I知 tired of reading about wolves, elk and now goats being killed on our dime instead of using hunters.  :bash:

The real question is if the NPS has been trying to eradicate the goats out of the of the Olympic national park and the surrounding NFS area bordering it for decades, why haven't more tags been made available by WDFW to hunt goats in the NFS area around the park for decades where it is legal to hunt? Their proposed plan now calls for eradicating all goats in the park and NFS areas surrounding the park.

Of the 6 tags issued in 2017, only 4 were filled. One unit averaged 9 hunter days, the other 4. They're not easy tags to fill, even though they encourage you to shoot the first goat you see. It would be interesting to find out if any of the hunters were trying to shoot billies. Regardless, they're not going to put more tags out if the ones they have now aren't getting filled.
Based on that stat, these hunts aren't doing what they're intended to do.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 09:30:58 AM by jackelope »
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline idaho guy

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I just read this on the website and I just shake my head.

I知 not sure how many goats reside or wander out of the park but 6 permits seems like a small number. Why not up the permits and get more hunters out there and save us some tax dollars from multiple helicopter trips. I知 not sure how effective it would be but I知 tired of reading about wolves, elk and now goats being killed on our dime instead of using hunters.  :bash:

The real question is if the NPS has been trying to eradicate the goats out of the of the Olympic national park and the surrounding NFS area bordering it for decades, why haven't more tags been made available by WDFW to hunt goats in the NFS area around the park for decades where it is legal to hunt? Their proposed plan now calls for eradicating all goats in the park and NFS areas surrounding the park.

Of the 6 tags issued in 2017, only 4 were filled. One unit averaged 9 hunter days, the other 4. They're not easy tags to fill, even though they encourage you to shoot the first goat you see. It would be interesting to find out if any of the hunters were trying to shoot billies. Regardless, they're not going to put more tags out if the ones they have now aren't getting filled.
Based on that stat, these hunts aren't doing what they're intended to do.

66% percent success rate sounds pretty good to me especially compared to elk and deer hunts? Why not factor the success rate in to the number of tags and desired harvest rate? Just like any other hunt is supposed to be-100 tags! maybe get 65 goats handled hunters are happy and the state MAKES money :dunno: I guess that makes too much sense and greenies don't like when people pay to have fun killing an animal. Plus they actually eat it and might even preserve the hide and antlers for (god forbid) a trophy on their wall! They only want paid professionals that just do the killing for a living damnit! They don't want to see some redneck pay for the privilege and possibly get some enjoyment out of it and use the animal for horrific things like feed his family and preserve the memory with a mount. Montana used hunters to get rid of a sheep herd and I don't think the success rate was great percentage wise but it kinda made more sense. 

Offline idaho guy

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I know, it seems silly to argue that point.  Its that way with sooo many animals etc.  Its not like its a Cape Buffalo in the Oly Park.  What would they do with the birds and insects?  They are native species period.  To many hikers getting chased, bottom line. Madness imop.  Instead we will run em out,  wait for an extinction and libs to cry and then introduce em to a "Great" ecosystem for em to thrive.  :bash:

I have been told the elk in the st joe of Idaho were transplanted from Yellowstone. I guess they are non-native too-Heard that the blue mountain elk were introduced from Yellowstone also-kill em all   :bash:

Offline sjhgraysage

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Can any one besides me imagine the uproar and out cry if the NPS was trying to rid Olympic Nat Park of non-native feral horses??
Feral horses in Utah, Colorado and Wyoming as well as a couple other states are competing with true native wildlife and nobody can do a damn thing about it  :bash:

Sorry for the off topic rant.  :sry:

Offline idaho guy

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I just read this on the website and I just shake my head.

I知 not sure how many goats reside or wander out of the park but 6 permits seems like a small number. Why not up the permits and get more hunters out there and save us some tax dollars from multiple helicopter trips. I知 not sure how effective it would be but I知 tired of reading about wolves, elk and now goats being killed on our dime instead of using hunters.  :bash:

The real question is if the NPS has been trying to eradicate the goats out of the of the Olympic national park and the surrounding NFS area bordering it for decades, why haven't more tags been made available by WDFW to hunt goats in the NFS area around the park for decades where it is legal to hunt? Their proposed plan now calls for eradicating all goats in the park and NFS areas surrounding the park.

Of the 6 tags issued in 2017, only 4 were filled. One unit averaged 9 hunter days, the other 4. They're not easy tags to fill, even though they encourage you to shoot the first goat you see. It would be interesting to find out if any of the hunters were trying to shoot billies. Regardless, they're not going to put more tags out if the ones they have now aren't getting filled.
Based on that stat, these hunts aren't doing what they're intended to do.

66% percent success rate sounds pretty good to me especially compared to elk and deer hunts? Why not factor the success rate in to the number of tags and desired harvest rate? Just like any other hunt is supposed to be-100 tags! maybe get 65 goats handled hunters are happy and the state MAKES money :dunno: I guess that makes too much sense and greenies don't like when people pay to have fun killing an animal. Plus they actually eat it and might even preserve the hide and antlers for (god forbid) a trophy on their wall! They only want paid professionals that just do the killing for a living damnit! They don't want to see some redneck pay for the privilege and possibly get some enjoyment out of it and use the animal for horrific things like feed his family and preserve the memory with a mount. Montana used hunters to get rid of a sheep herd and I don't think the success rate was great percentage wise but it kinda made more sense.


also 9 and especially 4 hunter days is nothing, give out enough tags and some hunters will get the tag that realize the opportunity and would gladly take a month off to be able to harvest a goat. For really difficult to access or hunt areas why not unlimited tags like Montana sheep hunts?

Offline jackelope

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9 seemed like a lot of days to me. It was the highest average days/kill in 2017. The only reason I mention that is because guys make it sound like it would be easy to just walk in there and shoot one. An average of 9 days is a lot of days especially when you're supposed to be culling goats shooting the first one you see. 4, I agree, is easy peasy.  Makes it seem like it's not as easy as maybe some think.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline 520backyard

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I just read this on the website and I just shake my head.

I知 not sure how many goats reside or wander out of the park but 6 permits seems like a small number. Why not up the permits and get more hunters out there and save us some tax dollars from multiple helicopter trips. I知 not sure how effective it would be but I知 tired of reading about wolves, elk and now goats being killed on our dime instead of using hunters.  :bash:

The real question is if the NPS has been trying to eradicate the goats out of the of the Olympic national park and the surrounding NFS area bordering it for decades, why haven't more tags been made available by WDFW to hunt goats in the NFS area around the park for decades where it is legal to hunt? Their proposed plan now calls for eradicating all goats in the park and NFS areas surrounding the park.

Of the 6 tags issued in 2017, only 4 were filled. One unit averaged 9 hunter days, the other 4. They're not easy tags to fill, even though they encourage you to shoot the first goat you see. It would be interesting to find out if any of the hunters were trying to shoot billies. Regardless, they're not going to put more tags out if the ones they have now aren't getting filled.
Based on that stat, these hunts aren't doing what they're intended to do.

An average of only 9 hunter days is not bad at all for a Mountain goat. I am well aware of the requirements of mountain goat hunting and the unique situations and circumstances that it presents ie geographical and elevational issues. And if few tags are getting filled then the logical thing to do would be to increase tags so that more hunters are afield to reduce the goat numbers in the conflict area. Interestingly enough 111 goats were harvested outside the park from 1981-1989, that breaks down to 12.3 goats harvested per year.

During 1981-89, under provisions of the two environmental assessments, the National Park Service removed 407 goats from the park, including 360 (88%) captured and translocated from the park, 28 (7%) capture-related deaths, and 19 (5%) collected as scientific specimens (Table 37). Two hundred sixty of these animals were removed during 1981-87, under the EMP; 147 were removed during 1988-89, under the OMP. In addition, three known illegal kills occurred in the park, and 111 goats were harvested legally by recreational hunters (archers) outside the park during 1981-89 (Washington Department of Wildlife 1982-90).

https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/science/25/chap14.htm



 I have a very simple question and that is who do those mountain goats belong too that are on USFS land? The state issues the tags so I can only assume that they are the property of the citizens of the state of Washington under control of the WDFW. So if that is the case then why are goats outside the park part of the goat management plan proposed by ONP? I have read the goat management plan and know that some of the goats go back and forth from USFS land and ONP. I believe 15% of the total number of the goat population to be removed are located on USFS land. I also know that plans C and D call for a "Desired eventual population size of zero" so ONP has decided what is to happen to goats outside the park and their jurisdiction? Or is WDFW ok with eradicating goats within their jurisdiction?
Swim hell, the fall will kill ya.

Offline idaho guy

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9 seemed like a lot of days to me. It was the highest average days/kill in 2017. The only reason I mention that is because guys make it sound like it would be easy to just walk in there and shoot one. An average of 9 days is a lot of days especially when you're supposed to be culling goats shooting the first one you see. 4, I agree, is easy peasy.  Makes it seem like it's not as easy as maybe some think.

I agree that its probably  tougher than most regular draw goat hunts. But 65% percent success is great and if they made the tags more available you would get hunters more than willing to pay and put in the extra effort just to have the opportunity. Look at otc elk hunt success in Washington or any state and there is always plenty of hunters lining up for that opportunity. The unlimited hunt Montana did to eradicate the Tendoy big horn sheep herd had 311 hunters and they got half of the sheep (18) for a 5-6% success rate. Point is Montana MADE a ton of money and got half the sheep gone in one season. How many hunters got too hunt sheep for the first time on this hunt? And the succesfull ones ate sheep and probably preserved part of the animal. I did the regular unlimited hunt in Montana decades ago(has a harvest quota) and the success rate was around 3% but I was happy just to have a sheep tag.  I got lucky and got into the 3% but was happy to have the opportunity regardless of harvest. Bought the tag otc and it cost 50 bucks. Letting hunters address the problem makes way too much sense I guess. I would organize and push for a hunter solution to this. I will call or write whoever just not sure who? I will pay for the out of state tag if they make it unlimited. I will probably draw this year in Idaho though  :chuckle: The goats are going to die regardless would it be ok for the state(huge budget deficit) to make money on it? Would it be ok if a bunch of hunters get a once in a lifetime hunting opportunity even if its not a slam dunk harvest? How about his family gets to enjoy goat meat and he actually uses the hide and horns? No none of that makes sense apparently only paid government sharp shooters who leave them lay. Really?

Offline jackelope

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Personally I'd like to talk to the guys with the tags to see if they killed the first goat they saw or if they sat on their tags a bit looking for a nice billy. I saw a photo on Facebook of a fine billy killed on one of the permits last year. Nothing wrong with that I guess, but sort of defeats the purpose of the tags. I'm pretty sure I know what I would do....

I applied.
:fire.:

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Offline 520backyard

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Well if you really want to be look at the subject of problem goats and a reduction of the goat population in the Olympic National Park then you have to ask why were these goats not subject to a special hunt in the park? Contrary to popular belief it is not illegal under certain circumstances to hunt in the National Parks by federal law in fact quite the opposite is true. So read the below and then ask yourself why the hell wasn't this put on the table for consideration at reducing the goat population in the ONP in lieu of lethal removal and letting they lay where they drop. I get it's a national park and public safety is paramount but it's also a million acre park and there are short range weapons options to account for that.

TITLE 36鳳ARKS, FORESTS, AND PUBLIC PROPERTY CHAPTER I鋒ATIONAL PARK SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR PART 2乏ESOURCE PROTECTION, PUBLIC USE AND RECREATION傍able of Contents Sec. 2.2 Wildlife protection. (a) The following are prohibited: (1) The taking of wildlife, except by authorized hunting and trapping activities conducted in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section. (2) The feeding, touching, teasing, frightening or intentional disturbing of wildlife nesting, breeding or other activities. (3) Possessing unlawfully taken wildlife or portions thereof. (b) Hunting and trapping. (1) Hunting shall be allowed in park areas where such activity is specifically mandated by Federal statutory law. (2) Hunting may be allowed in park areas where such activity is specifically authorized as a discretionary activity under Federal statutory law if the superintendent determines that such activity is consistent with public safety and enjoyment, and sound resource management principles. Such hunting shall be allowed pursuant to special regulations. (3) Trapping shall be allowed in park areas where such activity is specifically mandated by Federal statutory law. (4) Where hunting or trapping or both are authorized, such activities shall be conducted in accordance with Federal law and the laws of the State within whose exterior boundaries a park area or a portion thereof is located. Nonconflicting State laws are adopted as a part of these regulations. (c) Except in emergencies or in areas under the exclusive jurisdiction of the United States, the superintendent shall consult with appropriate State agencies before invoking the authority of Sec. 1.5 for the purpose of restricting hunting and trapping or closing park areas to the taking of wildlife where such activities are mandated or authorized by Federal statutory law. (d) The superintendent may establish conditions and procedures for transporting lawfully taken wildlife through the park area. Violation of these conditions and procedures is prohibited. (e) The Superintendent may designate all or portions of a park area as closed to the viewing of wildlife with an artificial light. Use of an artificial light for purposes of viewing wildlife in closed areas is prohibited. (f) Authorized persons may check hunting and trapping licenses and permits; inspect weapons, traps and hunting and trapping gear for compliance with equipment restrictions; and inspect wildlife that has been taken for compliance with species, size and other taking restrictions. (g) The regulations contained in this section apply, regardless of land ownership, on all lands and waters within a park area that are under the legislative jurisdiction of the United States. [48 FR 30282, June 30, 1983, as amended at 49 FR 18450, Apr. 30, 1984; 51 FR 33264, Sept. 19, 1986; 52 FR 35240, Sept. 18, 1987]


 
Swim hell, the fall will kill ya.

Offline Bob33

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Offline 520backyard

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https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7491&context=etd

Public opinion once saved the mountain goats in ONP. Let's hope it happens again. I am working on doing my part through various different avenues of approach. Plan B (relocation)it's the only choice!!!!!!
Swim hell, the fall will kill ya.

Offline X-Force

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https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7491&context=etd

Public opinion once saved the mountain goats in ONP. Let's hope it happens again. I am working on doing my part through various different avenues of approach. Plan B (relocation)it's the only choice!!!!!!

I believe that ship has sailed. The plan has been out for a while, public meetings were held, Tribes, WDFW, and ONP want this to happen. In reality I think hunters should want this to happen too. I cant find the budget numbers anywhere but when I looked at them they seemed reasonable given the terrain.

Why i think hunters should be for the transfer. 1) moving 300 goats (hopefully more) into areas with prime native habitat and low native goat numbers should augment the population and possibly open up more permit opportunities in the future. 2) These goats aren't from the cascades they are actually from Alaska and will add genetic diversity to cascade goats who have shown signs of being compartmentalized by freeways and highways. 3) The park is set on eliminating goats, we should want to move as many as possible before they are culled. 4) where these goats are being moved is directionally related to areas with historically high goat numbers so the vegetation, mineral nutrition and topography should be ideal to potentially create high goat numbers like the park was producing. 5) Lots of parties have been working for years to get this plan hammered out and like all plans with conflicting points of view its not perfect but everyone is giving up something... if this gets dropped who knows what the next plan will be? Possibly eliminating all goats without moving any?
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