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Author Topic: Raffle permit numbers.  (Read 22552 times)

Offline Bushcraft

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #120 on: July 02, 2019, 11:00:23 AM »
@Pegasus  I don't have a dog in this fight, but there's no "insider info" here. Email WDFW and ask them for updated raffle sale #'s....that's all you gotta do.  No offense to @Bushcraft  but his use of the "internal contact" or whatever he said was probably a little fancier sounding than it needed to be. Any joe shmo off the street can reach out to WDFW and ask whebever they want to, whether they bought no tickets or 10,000 tickets.


I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers.  It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didnít even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.

Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information. :dunno:

Nice try. Where on the raffle site does the game dept reveal to the general public that you can obtain current numbers on the raffles by either emailing or calling? How many raffle participants are aware that they are doing this for the wealthy? Yes you are included in that category. I know...its relative but most hunters can't spent $16,000 bucks on a raffle for goats like some can at a whim with special "inside info" from  certain people at the WDFW. Save your emails please.

Nowhere on WDFW's website have I ever seen it mentioned to do lots of things that are doable. I email biologists every year for info on areas I plan to hunt. I've never seen anywhere where it says to do that. They do make it clear that the primary goal of the program is to generate revenue, not to be fair to the average joe(me) or anything else for that matter. That is here:

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/special-hunts/auction-raffle-faq

Since the inception of the program in 1994, the primary objective of auction and raffle permits has been to generate revenue specifically for the management of the hunted species. As such, specific code was adopted in RCW 77.32.530 and WACs 232-28-290 and 232-28-292. These codes established the fiscal requirements for auction and raffle funds and describe structure of auction and raffle procedures and hunting opportunities.



@Pegasus  have you ever purchased a raffle ticket?

 :yeah: Exactly.
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Offline jackelope

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #121 on: July 02, 2019, 11:23:44 AM »
@Pegasus  I don't have a dog in this fight, but there's no "insider info" here. Email WDFW and ask them for updated raffle sale #'s....that's all you gotta do.  No offense to @Bushcraft  but his use of the "internal contact" or whatever he said was probably a little fancier sounding than it needed to be. Any joe shmo off the street can reach out to WDFW and ask whebever they want to, whether they bought no tickets or 10,000 tickets.


I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers.  It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didnít even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.

Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information. :dunno:

Nice try. Where on the raffle site does the game dept reveal to the general public that you can obtain current numbers on the raffles by either emailing or calling? How many raffle participants are aware that they are doing this for the wealthy? Yes you are included in that category. I know...its relative but most hunters can't spent $16,000 bucks on a raffle for goats like some can at a whim with special "inside info" from  certain people at the WDFW. Save your emails please.

Nowhere on WDFW's website have I ever seen it mentioned to do lots of things that are doable. I email biologists every year for info on areas I plan to hunt. I've never seen anywhere where it says to do that. They do make it clear that the primary goal of the program is to generate revenue, not to be fair to the average joe(me) or anything else for that matter. That is here:

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/special-hunts/auction-raffle-faq

Since the inception of the program in 1994, the primary objective of auction and raffle permits has been to generate revenue specifically for the management of the hunted species. As such, specific code was adopted in RCW 77.32.530 and WACs 232-28-290 and 232-28-292. These codes established the fiscal requirements for auction and raffle funds and describe structure of auction and raffle procedures and hunting opportunities.



@Pegasus  have you ever purchased a raffle ticket?

 :yeah: Exactly.

I will add to my comments that there isn't a shred of anything in me that thinks they don't update the numbers as some sort of cover up one way or the other. We've got one member complaining about no updates on behalf of the big spenders and another member complaining about no updates on behalf of the average joe guys. As far as I go, they have zero responsibility to update the numbers at all, so a single update at all is more than we're "entitled" to.
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Offline Bushcraft

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #122 on: July 02, 2019, 12:06:37 PM »

I will add to my comments that there isn't a shred of anything in me that thinks they don't update the numbers as some sort of cover up one way or the other. We've got one member complaining about no updates on behalf of the big spenders and another member complaining about no updates on behalf of the average joe guys. As far as I go, they have zero responsibility to update the numbers at all, so a single update at all is more than we're "entitled" to.

If I may be so bold as to reword your statement from my perspective:

We've got some members complaining on behalf of big spenders about no updates because them not knowing the updated odds factually reduces the amount of additional tickets big spenders may be willing to buy to improve their odds of winning, thereby reducing much needed revenues for species specific wildlife conservation efforts. And, we've got some members complaining on behalf of average joes about not wanting updates so that average joes will have better odds of winning a raffle since far fewer raffle tickets will be purchased.

Note that both are complaining for self-serving reasons. 
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Offline idahohuntr

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #123 on: July 02, 2019, 12:29:27 PM »
There's a third category you are neglecting.  Those of us who do not purchase raffle tickets that simply want WDFW to get maximum revenue out of any raffle/auction of wildlife in this state IF they are determined to offer said raffle/auction tags.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline Rainier10

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #124 on: July 02, 2019, 12:35:47 PM »
Just like the regular draw tags you canít make everyone happy with the system.  Everyone has an opinion of how it should change so they have better odds of drawing.

Great post jackelope about the point of the raffles is to generate revenue.

They do generate a ton of revenue and everybody that buys a ticket has a chance to win the tag of a lifetime.

Last year I bought 200 eastside elk tickets. $1,200, thatís $100 a month, less than $4 a day I set aside to take a swing at winning. Some people spend more than that on coffee, cigarettes or beer a month.

I had the quality archery elk tag the year before and just wanted to hunt bulls again. With one point in the general draw odds were dismal and I didnít draw. 200 tickets gave me great odds in the raffle. 3% is what my odds ended up when sales closed.

My best ticket was #9 or#10 I canít remember. What I do remember is the guy that had tickets 2-8 and a ton of numbers after me spent $18,000 or something like that. The guy with the wining ticket spent $30.

Anyone can win.
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Offline Bushcraft

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #125 on: July 02, 2019, 01:00:28 PM »
There's a third category you are neglecting.  Those of us who do not purchase raffle tickets that simply want WDFW to get maximum revenue out of any raffle/auction of wildlife in this state IF they are determined to offer said raffle/auction tags.

 :rolleyes:

You're right. For obvious reasons I intentially didn't include the perspective of forum members that complain, but aren't actually participating in the raffle ticket arena.

"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena."

Oh, the juicy irony of your signature line.

 :drool:  :tung: :chuckle:
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Offline idahohuntr

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #126 on: July 02, 2019, 01:20:32 PM »
There's a third category you are neglecting.  Those of us who do not purchase raffle tickets that simply want WDFW to get maximum revenue out of any raffle/auction of wildlife in this state IF they are determined to offer said raffle/auction tags.

 :rolleyes:

You're right. For obvious reasons I intentially didn't include the perspective of forum members that complain, but aren't actually participating in the raffle ticket arena.

"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena."

Oh, the juicy irony of your signature line.

 :drool:  :tung: :chuckle:
If you had even a modest knowledge of the NAMWC you would understand why active participation in auctions and raffles is not a prerequisite for having equally valid say in how the publics wildlife resources are allocated. 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline Bushcraft

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #127 on: July 02, 2019, 01:47:58 PM »
There's a third category you are neglecting.  Those of us who do not purchase raffle tickets that simply want WDFW to get maximum revenue out of any raffle/auction of wildlife in this state IF they are determined to offer said raffle/auction tags.

 :rolleyes:

You're right. For obvious reasons I intentially didn't include the perspective of forum members that complain, but aren't actually participating in the raffle ticket arena.

"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena."

Oh, the juicy irony of your signature line.

 :drool:  :tung: :chuckle:
If you had even a modest knowledge of the NAMWC you would understand why active participation in auctions and raffles is not a prerequisite for having equally valid say in how the publics wildlife resources are allocated.

What's up with your habitually vacuous need to infer my perspective and knowledge base is somehow being less than or inferior to yours?  Of course I have an intimate understanding of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.

So much for your hypocritically lame attempt at playing the "equally valid" card. Haha!

And no, not all viewpoints are equally valid.  That's an utterly mindless logical fallacy.
Liberalism is the philosophy of Western suicide. 

Work hard. Hunt hard. Lift other hunters up.

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Offline Rainier10

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #128 on: July 02, 2019, 02:17:29 PM »
Here is some other 2018 raffle information for you to digest.  Purchasers is the number of people who bought a ticket in each category last year.  Tickets sold speaks for itself.  If they capped the sales to only one ticket per person you would definitely see revenue drop.

Category         Purchasers         Tickets
BT deer              222                 1094
West elk             358                 1977
Mule deer           509                 2516
WT deer             214                 1425
East elk              551                 6365
Goat                  310                  4482
Moose                842                  3676
NC combo          196                  7717
NE combo           296                 901
Sheep                344                  6734
SC combo           268                 4398
SE combo           148                  790
3 Deer               201                 1812
Just thought I would bring this to the top of the discussion again and try to get this thing back on track.  Hopefully you two can just agree to disagree.

Take a look at the North central combo sales.  196 people bought 7717 tickets.  Maybe they each bought 40 tickets at $17 each but my guess is a few individuals spent some big coin.  If you cap ticket sales to give the little guy better odds do you really think you are going to increase ticket sales to single ticket buyers enough to offset the loss of the guys that buy 1,000's of tickets?

No, you are going to see two or three big spenders step out of the market and increase your individual ticket buyers by maybe 25%/50 more people buying tickets and sell 300-400 raffle tickets at $17 a pop versus 7,717 tickets that you sell with the big money buying tickets.

The point of the raffles is to generate revenue and that is exactly what they are doing.

In my opinion they generate more money by having the results available so the big money can decide where they want to gamble their money. Maybe if they didn't show the results sales would be higher.  I guess they could try that one year and see what sales do.  We have the data showing what sales are and they are pretty consistent each year.  It would be interesting to see how much big money gambles on the raffles not knowing what the odds are.  It would be more like playing a slot machine versus 21. 

In the end it is a revenue generate gamble.  That's why you have to buy the tickets at the store not online.  Online gambling is illegal in this state.
Pain is temporary, achieving the goal is worth it.

I didn't say it would be easy, I said it would be worth it.

Every father should remember that one day his children will follow his example instead of his advice.


The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of HuntWa or the site owner.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #129 on: July 03, 2019, 07:22:49 PM »
Its is a raffle and it is covered under the state gambling laws. That is why you can't you can't purchase tickets online. Since when is it OK to favor a select few? People are justifying the illegal actions by claiming that the state derives more revenues by screwing the general population instead of treating all purchasers the same. They release numbers privately to entice big buyers and they are giving them an advantage by releasing the numbers of bets already placed to a select few. If it were a fair gamble you would make the same info available to all at the same same time or not at all to everyone. They only release numbers at their selected times to pretend to be playing fair. They are not. I suspect the state will be challenged in court if enough of us deplorables start asking hard questions. Either release the numbers simultaneously as they occur or not at all. They surely can if they want to. Buyers want to know what the odds are. More buyers = less odds of winning. Why should some clown or a few select clowns get fed that info when the rest of us deplorables don't? What if you go to the local casino and a select few know what machines have the best odds or the best time to place a bet to win? We can always justify criminal behavior with  poor excuses  but they are just that... poor excuses. Stop rigging the raffles and don't get me started about the permit draw applications.

Offline jackelope

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #130 on: July 03, 2019, 08:15:25 PM »
Its is a raffle and it is covered under the state gambling laws. That is why you can't you can't purchase tickets online. Since when is it OK to favor a select few? People are justifying the illegal actions by claiming that the state derives more revenues by screwing the general population instead of treating all purchasers the same. They release numbers privately to entice big buyers and they are giving them an advantage by releasing the numbers of bets already placed to a select few. If it were a fair gamble you would make the same info available to all at the same same time or not at all to everyone. They only release numbers at their selected times to pretend to be playing fair. They are not. I suspect the state will be challenged in court if enough of us deplorables start asking hard questions. Either release the numbers simultaneously as they occur or not at all. They surely can if they want to. Buyers want to know what the odds are. More buyers = less odds of winning. Why should some clown or a few select clowns get fed that info when the rest of us deplorables don't? What if you go to the local casino and a select few know what machines have the best odds or the best time to place a bet to win? We can always justify criminal behavior with  poor excuses  but they are just that... poor excuses. Stop rigging the raffles and don't get me started about the permit draw applications.

But the slots at the Snoqualmie casino donít give you the odds of winning, do they?  Legit question. Iíve never been.

They announce ticket sales every so often. It seems they usually update the numbers on Mondayís. Not every Monday. If you want to ask the numbers, shoot them an email and ask them. There are no secrets. I feel like youíre overthinking things. Iíve always been anti-raffle tickets in favor of the regular joe and sort of still am, but your argument doesnít make sense to me. Iím just being honest. Not trying to argue with anyone.
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Offline Rainier10

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #131 on: July 03, 2019, 08:21:10 PM »
Its is a raffle and it is covered under the state gambling laws. That is why you can't you can't purchase tickets online. Since when is it OK to favor a select few? People are justifying the illegal actions by claiming that the state derives more revenues by screwing the general population instead of treating all purchasers the same. They release numbers privately to entice big buyers and they are giving them an advantage by releasing the numbers of bets already placed to a select few. If it were a fair gamble you would make the same info available to all at the same same time or not at all to everyone. They only release numbers at their selected times to pretend to be playing fair. They are not. I suspect the state will be challenged in court if enough of us deplorables start asking hard questions. Either release the numbers simultaneously as they occur or not at all. They surely can if they want to. Buyers want to know what the odds are. More buyers = less odds of winning. Why should some clown or a few select clowns get fed that info when the rest of us deplorables don't? What if you go to the local casino and a select few know what machines have the best odds or the best time to place a bet to win? We can always justify criminal behavior with  poor excuses  but they are just that... poor excuses. Stop rigging the raffles and don't get me started about the permit draw applications.
Well this clown emailed and asked. I assume You contacted them and were told no they werenít allowed to have that information. Did you get the clerks name or save the email response that said you canít the information the other clowns were given?

It would be deplorable if someone didnít even ask the question after reading this thread and seeing so many members say that they had to contact WDFW and ask for the information which WDFW then just gave to them.

I kind of track the sales using the difference between my ticket bought the week before and the ticket I buy the next week. From there I calculate out how many total tickets were sold and then use that to calculate the average increases in tickets sold per the last update. Then if they donít give an update for two weeks I still have an idea of sales.

Itís really not that hard to do the math. Itís also not hard to send an email saying when are results going to be updated? Can you tell me current sales for this in category X?

How much effort have you put in to finding out? Or are you one those people who think everything should be given to you without any effort on your part?

How many tickets have you bought?
Pain is temporary, achieving the goal is worth it.

I didn't say it would be easy, I said it would be worth it.

Every father should remember that one day his children will follow his example instead of his advice.


The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of HuntWa or the site owner.

Offline idaho guy

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #132 on: July 03, 2019, 08:35:33 PM »
"The only thing that's remotely unfair is that we taxpayers have lazy, incompetent people (not)working for us in our state and federal agencies that are almost impossible to fire.  They could, and should, have the numbers of raffle tickets sold updated instantly online. Which was my initial gripe and warning a few years ago."

I agree that the numbers should be posted almost instantaneously but let us not blame people for not posting the numbers as incompetent. I am sure the the raffle numbers are updated and viewed daily by the higher-ups at the WDFW. Not releasing the numbers for two weeks after the permit draws notifications is not an accident IMHO.

If you call a company and some clerk gives you info that allows you to make an investment based on non-disclosed info you get to go to jail. Seems like someone got sentenced to 4 years today for selling on non-public info. Giving out non-public info to a select few on a raffle that increases their odds does not sound any different. Wide dissemination is the key...not buddies at the WDFW for a few.
   

Your comparison of insider trading and raffle numbers is funny. To be illegal you would need information thatís not available to the public at all. With the raffles ANYONE can call and get the updated numbers from the department they just have to make the small effort to call. That is not rigged and sometimes you donít need to be hand fed everything from the government to call it ďfairĒ. The information is available to everyone in the same way. ( you might need to pick up the phone though)The drama on this site is awesome what was the original question?   :chuckle::chuckle:  carry on!

Offline idaho guy

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #133 on: July 03, 2019, 08:53:57 PM »
If they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all.

Wrong, on both accounts. At least you're consistent.

We already went through the basic math relating to the need to update the numbers. "Whales" or "Mr. Bigs" aren't going to play if they don't know what the odds are.  No odds, no whales...substantially less revenue. Not sure why you're having difficulty with the straightforward concept.

As to "not at all" posting the number of tickets purchased (that's how you wrote it), WDFW is a public agency and they work for us. Every bleeping dime and action is accountable and should be absolutely transparent, both on the inflows and outflows. To suggest otherwise is delving into big-government-knows-best-pinko-commie territory amigo.
Two lines of evidence that do not support your belief that WDFW generates more revenue by posting updated ticket sales:
1. People whining their purchases have not been reflected on the ticket sales page quickly enough - a clear and obvious attempt of "whales" to discourage others from purchasing tickets. 
2. Virtually no other Western State or private company (e.g., huntin fool) offers real time updates of raffle ticket sales.

Your suggestion that no "whales" will participate if they don't know the odds is interesting.  Are you suggesting Wyoming, Idaho, Montana etc. don't have "whales" buying loads of raffle tickets? I unequivocally know that to be a false assertion.

Good grief. I'm seriously biting my tongue here.

You need to take a remedial Logic course idahohunter.  Neither of your points are evidence or supportive of your opinion that not updating ticket sales would somehow generate more revenue for the department. 

Let's paint this picture differently to try and help you to understand. Let's use the lottery.  MegaMillions Powerball or whatever it's called.

So, take a moment and pause from desperately wanting to be right (or make me appear to be wrong, same difference  :dunno: ) and reflect upon why the lotteries display the increasing value of a given lottery.

Why is it that the stores and machines that sell them advertise the updated amount you could win if you played?

It's been long since proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the larger the lottery pool, the more people will buy more lottery tickets.  Limited transparency into potential payout, and odds of winning, dramatically diminishes participation.

When the lottery is a "paltry" $15 million, very few people bother playing.  When it builds up to $800 million, LOTS of people play that otherwise wouldn't even remotely consider wasting a buck or two on a lottery ticket. Once that lottery gets up to hundreds of millions, playing at that level is a lark.  As a student of human nature, I can tell you that it's a silly phenomenon because either amount would dramatically alter the lives of the winner.  Accordingly, why don't people play all the time?  Well, due to some oddities of human perception, they are more drawn to the prospects of a potentially larger payout even though they know the odds of winning either are approximately zero.

Now, let's shift gears to raffles for something with a fixed payout value. Fixed in the sense that there is an essentially known value of a given item and there is a ceiling on the value of the item. It's not like a lottery that just gets bigger if no one wins. When it comes to the type of raffles like the ones we are discussing, far fewer people with essentially zero chance of winning will still play but they'll only buy a relatively small number of tickets per person.  The vast majority will only buy one.  That's just the way these things go. That number would change dramatically if it cost $50,000,000 to go on a sheep hunt and the winning raffle ticket was transferable to a willing buyer or redeemable in cash. Understandably, far more people would be willing to take a chance and buy a ticket worth $50MM even if they weren't hunters. But, sheep hunts just don't come anywhere near that coast and there's only a few people - relatively speaking in a state of 7.5MM people, that want to hunt sheep anyway.  In fact, it's relatively easy to figure out since all one has to do is look up the number of people that put in for special permit applications, or even raffle tags for that matter. It's a comparatively small percentage of the population. Again, the vast majority of whom, if historical data is any indication will just buy one ticket, even though they could theoretically buy an unlimited quantity.

But, if there is some perceived chance at increasing their odds of winning a fixed value raffle, some of the people will carefully weigh the "sure thing" cost of just buying the hunt vs. the risk of a gambling loss.  Some will just forego playing, and save up and pay for the hunt outright. Others will have the financial wherewithal to lay down a pile of cash to gain better odds of winning, but they'll only do so up to a point that makes sense to them on a single throw or over a year over year basis. For example, if someone buys 33% percent of the expected number of raffle tickets sold every year, odds are that they'll get it once every three years (with no guarantee of course).  They'll likely end up paying a third of the cost, two thirds of the cost or the full cost for a guided hunt.  If it's a third...great. If it's two-thirds...nice discount.  Full boat...they wanted to go sheep hunting anyway.  If their luck totally sucked, they disposable income at that level is such that they can scrape up something and just go. Bottome line is they are just playing the odds with disposable income that they would nototherwise spend at all if they didn't know the odds. The lower the understanding of what the odds are, the lower the interest level in playing.  The lower the interest level in playing, the lower amount of disposable income they are going to play with.  The lower amount they play with, the lower the revenue generated by the raffle.

It's just that simple.
That's a lot of rambling for a simple "explanation".  :chuckle: There is a reason no other western state or private companies provide real time draw odds on their wildlife/hunt raffles.  But even if I try to follow your "logic" trail do you really believe there are not big spenders in Wyoming, Idaho, Montana raffles...which is your direct assertion since those states do not provide real time odds. Perhaps the more clear example: why do you suppose a private company founded on the basis of providing draw odds to its members (huntin fool) NEVER provides the draw odds of their various raffle hunts?  Hmmmm...a profit motivated private company doesn't share odds on their raffles and they've been doing them for decades...don't worry, business acumen, finance, law etc. are clearly not your strong suits.  I'm sure you have other talents though.   :tup:
   

There are a lot of hunters that refuse to buy Huntin fool raffle tickets for one reason they donít provide odds. I guess they have calculated itís worth it but they have alienated quite a few customers. I know I am way less likely to purchase without knowing the odds and wonít buy Huntn fool tickets because of it. Even if they are crappy I want to know and I am definitely not a whale. I agree with bushcraft a whale is way more likely to dump big money when he can calculate his odds.full disclosure  : I will be flooding the goat raffle next week with at least 2 tickets! Just so you all arenít caught off guard.  :chuckle:

Offline jackelope

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Re: Raffle permit numbers.
« Reply #134 on: July 03, 2019, 09:17:31 PM »
So Pegasus. Itís been asked at least a couple times. Have you bought any raffle tickets this year? Ever?

Asking for a friend.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

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