Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?

[hunter399]

What if a warden says it has to be manufactured as a 1x scope. LETTER OF THE LAW.
What if he twist on your adjustment knob really hard and the super glue,jb weld,soldering,bubble gum,pinned ,locktite,ECT comes undone from weather or beating the brush ,or some gun oil,or soapy water,or whatever.
Then what do you do.

Here's a few links I found in just a few Google ,
But good luck guys with this 1x scope thing.

https://vortexoptics.com/vortex-crossfire-ii-1x24-muzzleloader-riflescope.html

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1009749095

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1009766610

Most of these scopes look like they have been discontinued or kinda rare items .You guys better buy one now ,cause maybe a few of you have a chance at getting one.
Maybe flee bay might have some .

I will find it a little ironic if only the 1x scope passes.
And adujustable scopes not allowed period.
WDFW gives you guys something that's obsolete and virtually useless .I will laugh a little ,I'm sorry guys.
CONGRATS on the big win.
 

[Ghost Hunter]

Bob
Am I reading something into this?

WAC 220-414-060 Muzzleloading firearms. - click the link to review the proposed changes.

Purpose of the proposal and its anticipated effects, including any changes in existing rules:

Specific amendments associated with this proposal include:

1. Allowing the use of 1x or red dot scopes on muzzleloading firearms. Anticipated effects associated with this amendment would be increased hunter participation, increased hunter retention, and ensuring a clean and ethical kill.

2. Allowing video-cameras to be mounted to muzzleloading firearms. There are no anticipated effects associated with this proposal other than hunters who wish to video their hunt being allowed to do so.

3. Clarifies that the term “load” refers to the powder charge and projectile and that both must be loaded from the muzzle. Anticipated effects associated with this amendment would be hunters having a clearer understanding of the muzzleloading firearms that are legal to use during established muzzleloader seasons.

Reasons supporting proposal:

1. Under current rule, sights on muzzleloading firearms must be open, peep, or of other open sight design. Optic sights are allowed, but telescopic sights or sights containing glass are not. The Department routinely receives requests from hunters to allow the use of 1x scopes on muzzleloading firearms. Common arguments in support of allowing them to be used are related to increased hunter participation, hunter retention, and ensuring a clean and ethical kill. One-power scopes do not magnify the target, but rather provide a clearer sight window, in much the same way eyeglasses correct someone’s vision (i.e., they make the target clearer, but don’t make it bigger). Common arguments against their use are typically related to the use of scopes not adhering to the spirit of primitive weapons. The Department is not opposed to allowing the use of 1x scopes on muzzleloading firearms because we do not anticipate it would result in more animals being harvested. When presented to the public for initial comment, 65% of the ~1,300 respondents indicated support for this proposal.

[M_ray]

I’m trying to figure out how to pin the power ring on 1x on this NF NX8...haha

JB weld is awesome..

Haha.  Unless I want to be able to remove and use 8x in Utah!

Or you can just use it on 1x and leave it unpinned.
Like most hunters are gonna due anyway.
Available 1x scopes sucks and it's gonna happen that most hunter will just throw whatever on there.

Will say with that CONGRATS guys ,might as well make the most of the opportunity.

Im trying to follow your logic here, are you saying that if this passes it’s going to turn muzzy guys into cheaters and poachers too? 

Technology doesn’t turn a person into a cheater. I have news for you those that will cheat are cheating now regardless of a 1x scope. This isn’t going to recruit more poachers any more than any technology advancement of that past hasn’t destroyed the herds.

I was simply implying that seems as though finding 1 power scopes sucks. Not much being available.
They should just make all scopes legal in my mind .
As far as cheating or poaching ,they should just allow all or none that's my opinion.
I'm not trying to encourage illegal activities(we don't even know the final decision) .But whatever this or that hunter does is nonya ,to me anyway.
I let people take responsibility for themselves and worry about my self. I look the other way 99/100 times.

What are some of you guys gonna do if it has to be a fixed power scope ? Meaning No adjustment at all.

I don't really want to debate technology,all that really matters is what WDFW say to what is legal or not. As far as technology advances.

Ok wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or not but when you say say "use whatever (variable) and leave it unpinned cause you all will anyway" sounds as if you were suggesting we are all just going to cheat now.

As far as what am I gonna do if they make it fixed power 1??? I'm gonna do what i've been doing for 25 years and go hunt with my iron sights, 200 is my range and I'm good with that. What I've been doing is working and why change?

I'm not one here that is pushing for this rule but if it happens I don't think its a big deal. The sky didn't fall like many said it would when they allowed lighted knocks and this is much the same. Not a significant enough change to make a difference other than maybe allow some old timers a few more openers to look forward to ... and that's not such a bad thing.

 You all are going to be there someday and when you are???  you'll wish you had that 1x!   

[JimmyHoffa]

I was mostly thinking about them for the low-light hours, particularly of the late elk season.  About half the time it is raining so much, that a scope at 1x probably isn't that much of an advantage.  I have to blow the rain water out of the peep routinely to keep it clear.  During modern, even good, 3x scopes have caused problems in heavy rain.  Would probably have to go with a detachable or something.  The early season or eastside, I think, is where the scope or red dot would have the most value.

[suga]

I’m good either way it goes


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[hunter399]

I’m trying to figure out how to pin the power ring on 1x on this NF NX8...haha

JB weld is awesome..

Haha.  Unless I want to be able to remove and use 8x in Utah!

Or you can just use it on 1x and leave it unpinned.
Like most hunters are gonna due anyway.
Available 1x scopes sucks and it's gonna happen that most hunter will just throw whatever on there.

Will say with that CONGRATS guys ,might as well make the most of the opportunity.

Im trying to follow your logic here, are you saying that if this passes it’s going to turn muzzy guys into cheaters and poachers too? 

Technology doesn’t turn a person into a cheater. I have news for you those that will cheat are cheating now regardless of a 1x scope. This isn’t going to recruit more poachers any more than any technology advancement of that past hasn’t destroyed the herds.

I was simply implying that seems as though finding 1 power scopes sucks. Not much being available.
They should just make all scopes legal in my mind .
As far as cheating or poaching ,they should just allow all or none that's my opinion.
I'm not trying to encourage illegal activities(we don't even know the final decision) .But whatever this or that hunter does is nonya ,to me anyway.
I let people take responsibility for themselves and worry about my self. I look the other way 99/100 times.

What are some of you guys gonna do if it has to be a fixed power scope ? Meaning No adjustment at all.

I don't really want to debate technology,all that really matters is what WDFW say to what is legal or not. As far as technology advances.

Ok wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or not but when you say say "use whatever (variable) and leave it unpinned cause you all will anyway" sounds as if you were suggesting we are all just going to cheat now.

As far as what am I gonna do if they make it fixed power 1??? I'm gonna do what i've been doing for 25 years and go hunt with my iron sights, 200 is my range and I'm good with that. What I've been doing is working and why change?

I'm not one here that is pushing for this rule but if it happens I don't think its a big deal. The sky didn't fall like many said it would when they allowed lighted knocks and this is much the same. Not a significant enough change to make a difference other than maybe allow some old timers a few more openers to look forward to ... and that's not such a bad thing.

 You all are going to be there someday and when you are???  you'll wish you had that 1x!   

Again reference to the available options to 1x scopes
Where someone might have to use whatever.
But after reading the proposed changes that ghost just posted it does sound as if elecritic devices may be allowed .

I'm not a huge fan of rule changes that leave a "grey area"
That may turn someone on the wrong side of the law. By trying to make a variable power scope into a 1x scope.
That's all my comment was referring too.
I'm a lot older than you may think ,very close to my 50's.
There was quite a bit of the proposals that I disagreed on.
Boundary changes and such ,most hunters don't keep up with changes and such.Before you know they are hunting where they always have.Now all of a sudden there a "poacher"cause of some stupid change.
Not only does some of these proposals sell tags but they also write more tickets ,which I'm not a fan of that too.

[bkaech]

Bob
Am I reading something into this?

WAC 220-414-060 Muzzleloading firearms. - click the link to review the proposed changes.

Purpose of the proposal and its anticipated effects, including any changes in existing rules:

Specific amendments associated with this proposal include:

1. Allowing the use of 1x or red dot scopes on muzzleloading firearms. Anticipated effects associated with this amendment would be increased hunter participation, increased hunter retention, and ensuring a clean and ethical kill.

2. Allowing video-cameras to be mounted to muzzleloading firearms. There are no anticipated effects associated with this proposal other than hunters who wish to video their hunt being allowed to do so.

3. Clarifies that the term “load” refers to the powder charge and projectile and that both must be loaded from the muzzle. Anticipated effects associated with this amendment would be hunters having a clearer understanding of the muzzleloading firearms that are legal to use during established muzzleloader seasons.

Reasons supporting proposal:

1. Under current rule, sights on muzzleloading firearms must be open, peep, or of other open sight design. Optic sights are allowed, but telescopic sights or sights containing glass are not. The Department routinely receives requests from hunters to allow the use of 1x scopes on muzzleloading firearms. Common arguments in support of allowing them to be used are related to increased hunter participation, hunter retention, and ensuring a clean and ethical kill. One-power scopes do not magnify the target, but rather provide a clearer sight window, in much the same way eyeglasses correct someone’s vision (i.e., they make the target clearer, but don’t make it bigger). Common arguments against their use are typically related to the use of scopes not adhering to the spirit of primitive weapons. The Department is not opposed to allowing the use of 1x scopes on muzzleloading firearms because we do not anticipate it would result in more animals being harvested. When presented to the public for initial comment, 65% of the ~1,300 respondents indicated support for this proposal.

If you click the link in the page you copied that from it will give the actual rule changes. If adopted Section 3C will read....


(c)  It  is  unlawful  to  have  any  electrical aiming  device ((or equipment))  attached  to  a  muzzleloading  firearm  while  hunting except for red dot or other similar electronically powered scopes not exceed-ing  1x  magnification.  It  is  lawful  to  mount  a  video  camera  to  your muzzleloader while hunting provided it cannot be used for aiming the firearm.

[Special T]

I think many of you dont seem to understand the trend of making Muzzy and Archery more accommodating to older hunters whom need reading glasses. Archery added the exemption of "Clarifiers"  to address the same issue as 1x scopes. Yes these are primitive weapons classes, but Im not sure that they will do anything other than keep older hunters in the game instead of hanging up hunting for good.

[bkaech]

My understanding is that section 3 (b) is the only regulation under consideration. Section 3 (c) would remain in effect.



WAC 220-414-060

Muzzleloading firearms.
(1) Definitions.
(a) Muzzleloader: A firearm that is loaded from the muzzle and uses black powder or a black powder substitute as recommended by the manufacturer for use in all muzzleloading firearms.
(b) A muzzleloading firearm shall be considered loaded if a powder charge and a projectile, either shot or single projectile are in the barrel and the barrel or breech is capped or primed.
(2) It is unlawful to hunt wildlife using a muzzleloading firearm that does not meet the following specifications:
(a) A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle must have a single or double barrel, rifled or smooth-bored.
(b) A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle used for deer must be .40 caliber or larger. Buckshot size #1 or larger may be used in a smoothbore of .60 caliber or larger for deer.
(c) A muzzleloading shotgun, rifle, or handgun used for all other big game must be .45 caliber or larger.
(d) Persons lawfully hunting small game with a double barrel, muzzleloading shotgun may keep both barrels loaded.
(e) A muzzleloading handgun must have a single or double barrel of at least eight inches, must be rifled, and must be capable of being loaded with forty-five grains or more of black powder or black powder substitute per the manufacturer's recommendations.
(f) A muzzleloading handgun used for big game must be .45 caliber or larger.
(g) A handgun designed to be used with black powder, including black powder percussion revolvers, can be used to hunt forest grouse, cottontail rabbits, and snowshoe hares.
(3) In addition to the above requirements, it is unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading hunting season using a firearm that does not meet the following specifications for a muzzleloader. However, a modern handgun may be carried for personal protection. Modern handguns cannot be used to hunt big game or dispatch wounded big game during a big game hunting season for muzzleloading firearms.
(a) Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion. Primers designed to be used in modern cartridges are legal.
(b) Sights must be open, peep, or of other open sight design. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights or sights containing glass are prohibited.
(c) It is unlawful to have any electrical device or equipment attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting.
(d) Those persons lawfully hunting big game with a double barrel muzzleloader may only keep one barrel loaded.
(4) Muzzleloading firearms used during a modern firearm season are not required to meet ignition, sight, or double barrel restrictions.
(5) A violation of this section is punishable under RCW 77.15.400, 77.15.410, or 77.15.430, depending on the species hunted.

Here are the proposed rule changes to Muzzleloaders:

AMENDATORY  SECTION  (Amending  WSR  18-11-061,  filed  5/11/18,  effective 6/11/18)WAC 220-414-060 
Muzzleloading firearms.
(1) Definitions.
(a)  Muzzleloader:  A  firearm  that  is  loaded  from  the  muzzle  and uses black powder or a black powder substitute as recommended by the manufacturer for use in all muzzleloading firearms. The term load re-fers to the powder charge and projectile and both must be loaded from the muzzle.
(b) A muzzleloading firearm shall be considered loaded if a pow-der charge and a projectile, either shot or single projectile are in the barrel and the barrel or breech is capped or primed.

(2) It is unlawful to hunt wildlife using a muzzleloading firearm that does not meet the following specifications:
(a) A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle must have a single or double barrel, rifled or smooth-bored.
(b)  A  muzzleloading  shotgun  or  rifle  used  for  deer  must  be  .40 caliber or larger. Buckshot size #1 or larger may be used in a smooth-bore of .60 caliber or larger for deer.
(c) A muzzleloading shotgun, rifle, or handgun used for all other big game must be .45 caliber or larger.
(d)  Persons  lawfully  hunting  small  game  with  a  double  barrel, muzzleloading shotgun may keep both barrels loaded.
(e) A muzzleloading handgun must have a single or double barrel of at least eight inches, must be rifled, and must be capable of being loaded with forty-five grains or more of black powder or black powder substitute per the manufacturer's recommendations.
(f) A muzzleloading handgun used for big game must be .45 caliber or larger.
(g)  A  handgun  designed  to  be  used  with  black  powder,  including black powder percussion revolvers, can be used to hunt forest grouse, cottontail rabbits, and snowshoe hares.

(3) In addition to the above requirements, it is unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading hunting season using a firearm that does not meet the following specifications for a muzzleloader. However,  a  modern  handgun  may  be  carried  for  personal  protection.  Modern handguns cannot be used to hunt big game or dispatch wounded big game during a big game hunting season for muzzleloading firearms.
(a) Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion. Primers designed to be used in modern cartridges are legal.
Sights must be open, peep, ((or)) of other open sight design, or scopes not exceeding 1x magnification. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights ((or sights containing glass)) are prohibited.
(c)  It  is  unlawful  to  have  any  electrical aiming  device ((or equipment))  attached  to  a  muzzleloading  firearm  while  hunting except for red dot or other similar electronically powered scopes not exceeding  1x  magnification.  It  is  lawful  to  mount  a  video  camera  to  your muzzleloader while hunting provided it cannot be used for aiming the firearm.
(d) Those persons lawfully hunting big game with a double barrel muzzleloader may only keep one barrel loaded.

(4)  Muzzleloading  firearms  used  during  a  modern  firearm  season are  not  required  to  meet  ignition,  sight,  or  double  barrel  restrictions.

(5)  A  violation  of  this  section  is  punishable  under  RCW 77.15.400, 77.15.410, or 77.15.430, depending on the species hunted.

[hunter399]

Bob
Am I reading something into this?

WAC 220-414-060 Muzzleloading firearms. - click the link to review the proposed changes.

Purpose of the proposal and its anticipated effects, including any changes in existing rules:

Specific amendments associated with this proposal include:

1. Allowing the use of 1x or red dot scopes on muzzleloading firearms. Anticipated effects associated with this amendment would be increased hunter participation, increased hunter retention, and ensuring a clean and ethical kill.

2. Allowing video-cameras to be mounted to muzzleloading firearms. There are no anticipated effects associated with this proposal other than hunters who wish to video their hunt being allowed to do so.

3. Clarifies that the term “load” refers to the powder charge and projectile and that both must be loaded from the muzzle. Anticipated effects associated with this amendment would be hunters having a clearer understanding of the muzzleloading firearms that are legal to use during established muzzleloader seasons.

Reasons supporting proposal:

1. Under current rule, sights on muzzleloading firearms must be open, peep, or of other open sight design. Optic sights are allowed, but telescopic sights or sights containing glass are not. The Department routinely receives requests from hunters to allow the use of 1x scopes on muzzleloading firearms. Common arguments in support of allowing them to be used are related to increased hunter participation, hunter retention, and ensuring a clean and ethical kill. One-power scopes do not magnify the target, but rather provide a clearer sight window, in much the same way eyeglasses correct someone’s vision (i.e., they make the target clearer, but don’t make it bigger). Common arguments against their use are typically related to the use of scopes not adhering to the spirit of primitive weapons. The Department is not opposed to allowing the use of 1x scopes on muzzleloading firearms because we do not anticipate it would result in more animals being harvested. When presented to the public for initial comment, 65% of the ~1,300 respondents indicated support for this proposal.

If you click the link in the page you copied that from it will give the actual rule changes. If adopted Section 3C will read....


(c)  It  is  unlawful  to  have  any  electrical aiming  device ((or equipment))  attached  to  a  muzzleloading  firearm  while  hunting except for red dot or other similar electronically powered scopes not exceed-ing  1x  magnification.  It  is  lawful  to  mount  a  video  camera  to  your muzzleloader while hunting provided it cannot be used for aiming the firearm.

From what that reads ,
It does sound like red dots 1x,or video electronic device would be allowed .Im not so sure a variable power scope that has been temporarily fixed to a 1x would be legal.

My comment earlier in the topic.
Or you can just use it on 1x and leave it unpinned.
Much of the discussion at that time was how to make a variable scope into a fixed power scope.
Sometimes you got to pay to play.
Good nite guys .

[full choke]

I think many of you dont seem to understand the trend of making Muzzy and Archery more accommodating to older hunters whom need reading glasses. Archery added the exemption of "Clarifiers"  to address the same issue as 1x scopes. Yes these are primitive weapons classes, but Im not sure that they will do anything other than keep older hunters in the game instead of hanging up hunting for good.

This state cares very little for youth hunters- I highly doubt they have a soft spot for older hunters.
If that was the case- make the exceptions for the 65 older hunts.

[Special T]

I think many of you dont seem to understand the trend of making Muzzy and Archery more accommodating to older hunters whom need reading glasses. Archery added the exemption of "Clarifiers"  to address the same issue as 1x scopes. Yes these are primitive weapons classes, but Im not sure that they will do anything other than keep older hunters in the game instead of hanging up hunting for good.

This state cares very little for youth hunters- I highly doubt they have a soft spot for older hunters.
If that was the case- make the exceptions for the 65 older hunts.

If you dont think the WDFW pays attention to license  sales when it comes to something like this I cant agree with you. This change is PC friendly, affects the bottom line, and has nothing to do with predators!

[sagemd]

You can definitely tell who is viewing it from the best interest of the resource vs who is viewing it from the best interest of themselves after reading through this thread... hopefully they make the right decision but I’m not holding my breath

 Seams a lot of folks don’t care about the resources anymore only care about themselves

If we are interested in the resources, we would go to a complete draw system. Like other well managed states.
Where harvest is controlled and success is way higher. As well as hunt experience.
WDFW is not interested in well managed wildlife, it's interested in money.

[dilleytech]

By the way that reads to me it seems a 1x8 scope welded to one power scope would be legal. As it could be demonstrated as not being capable of 1x+ power. It doesn’t specifically say something of that sort wouldn’t be allowed. Or it doesn’t say it has to be manufactured as a 1x scope only.

[Ghost Hunter]

or scopes not exceeding 1x magnification. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights ((or sights containing glass)) are prohibited.
(c) It is unlawful to have any electrical aiming device ((or
equipment)) attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting except
for red dot or other similar electronically powered scopes not exceeding 1x magnification. It is lawful to mount a video camera to your
muzzleloader while hunting provided it cannot be used for aiming the
firearm

Unless they clarify, I personally wouldn't want to risk moving that discussion from the field to the courtroom.   I'll just spend the money on the 1x.  They are available.