North Cascades Grizzly Reintroduction

[KFhunter]

I had a grizz roar at me in 113, but I didn't record it

So you guessed it....didn't happen

[Special T]

Yes, and  a couple in North Central

 
We started seeing grizz in the Alpine lakes in the late 90s.
WA bio we brought pictures to told us not to tell anyone.

Photos or it didn’t happen. I know several bios in that very same region and they most definitely would not participate in a cover up.

This got me thinking about integrity

Defending one's integrity is a hill I will always climb, a mountain I would always die defending, should it come to that.

There is no faster way to get me in your grill than to call it into question, and I suspect Bone is the same. 

I have never called another persons integrity into question, ever, having it myself I know what it is to defend, what it means, so I wouldn't ever call it into question without irrefutable just cause, proof, as it is so important to me and others like me. 

So what sort of person assaults another's integrity on such a whim?

Just thinking out loud 

Bone says there was grizz up there, then by gawd there was grizz up there!

Bone Apparently has his reasons, and Im not calling his integrity other otherwise into question. It does bring up an important question.  How do we crowd source useful information and who should we give it to?

[Ironhead]

It's like a giant Buck, some things are just better kept to yourself or a select few.

[Special T]

It's like a giant Buck, some things are just better kept to yourself or a select few.

perhaps I need to expand on my statement. Who are those select few, AND how do we overcome our independent nature?  Our natural inclination towards individualism IS our weak point  against anti hunting forces. THEY are collectivists and have no problem sharing time money resources for VERY loosely affiliated goals. It is one of the reasons why Several anti hunting groups have paid staff that spend all their time fundraising and  organizing to screw sportsmen. Our Necks are too stiff to collaborate in a similar fashion.

To me this a major hurdle to our success. 

[Alchase]

We saw track up the Falls Creek drainage back the late 90s. That evening Big Jim Montegue (spelling?) did his yearly rounds checking out a h hunting camps, came by our camp. We ask d him about the tracks. He replied they had been monitoring 6 grizzly dens in the region the winter before. I never saw on in the North Cascades myself, but a couple guys I know did in the vicinity (a few miles) of where I saw the tracks.

[KFhunter]

I figure this is going to be on a fast track, new administration in 2025 will probably end it again.

There's nothing we can do, it's federal, even if it were state, nothing.

Adapt


Another thing - they aren't going to go way back in the wilderness and pack in a grizz trap with a team of horses...

They're going to get the easy bears, the ones creating problems with people, ranchers and hikers, bird watchers and what have you. They'll probably set a trap next to a dead cow, bait it with beef.

We're getting problem bears that should have been euthanized

[boneaddict]

What do I get, what do we get if I were to report a grizz on Buttermilk Butte (theoretical), even if I were to attach a photo.   A dozen college interns that likely dont know their sphincter from their elbows scour the area.  So they find tracks, so they find evidence of their feeding, so they find evidence of hair or markings in trees.  THen what.   The entire drainage or area is shut down.   All access blocked, possibly bear hunting stopped.  Those dozen report back to to office, now half the district knows this is where I hunt.  Everyone with an access pass is now in my area, yet I cant.     Do any of the people in the office hunt.  Do they now know where.   What information is leaked, what information is in the press.   
So now what.   Did this great revelation help our cause?  What do you think this information really does. 

There are still people here that dont know or believe there are grizz in 113.  Well, what do I have to prove to them?   

By the way, there is also more to a sighting.   Like finding a denning area, feeding area, at different times of year, tracks, do 95% of the people on here even know what that looks like?  How about these college educated interns?   

I tracked a grizz for about 7 years straight.   Took the same route every year within a day or two.  I've seen a sow and cubs.  WHere do you think those cubs came from.   Found the marking of a big male. How many on here have ever seen these markings.    Why should I point this out to some biologist.   

How about the wolverine I saw last week?  Is that a big deal?   How about all the wolves the last three decades.  Anyone remember how that was handled when they were first here, you know before there was a pack.   Anyone remember coyote hunting being shut down.  ANyone remember alta being closed for three years to hunting? 

I reported wolves to a biologist once.  The next day I think it was 7 folks showed up with cross country skiis.  I watched them ski a mile or so up the hill turn around and come back.  They ruled it a coyote.   The photo I took of the wolves ended up in the northwest postman. LOL

  I have ZERO faith.

AND I could really care less if Knocker believes me or not. 

[KFhunter]

Fyi Bone, the Grizz in 113 is in an area that is locked down

I had to walk 7 miles behind a locked gate down a 2 lane gravel road you could drive a doublewide trailer down. 


The road that's shut down, and one track of many we seen

[Special T]

What do I get, what do we get if I were to report a grizz on Buttermilk Butte (theoretical), even if I were to attach a photo.   A dozen college interns that likely dont know their sphincter from their elbows scour the area.  So they find tracks, so they find evidence of their feeding, so they find evidence of hair or markings in trees.  THen what.   The entire drainage or area is shut down.   All access blocked, possibly bear hunting stopped.  Those dozen report back to to office, now half the district knows this is where I hunt.  Everyone with an access pass is now in my area, yet I cant.     Do any of the people in the office hunt.  Do they now know where.   What information is leaked, what information is in the press.   
So now what.   Did this great revelation help our cause?  What do you think this information really does. 

There are still people here that dont know or believe there are grizz in 113.  Well, what do I have to prove to them?   

By the way, there is also more to a sighting.   Like finding a denning area, feeding area, at different times of year, tracks, do 95% of the people on here even know what that looks like?  How about these college educated interns?   

I tracked a grizz for about 7 years straight.   Took the same route every year within a day or two.  I've seen a sow and cubs.  WHere do you think those cubs came from.   Found the marking of a big male. How many on here have ever seen these markings.    Why should I point this out to some biologist.   

How about the wolverine I saw last week?  Is that a big deal?   How about all the wolves the last three decades.  Anyone remember how that was handled when they were first here, you know before there was a pack.   Anyone remember coyote hunting being shut down.  ANyone remember alta being closed for three years to hunting? 

I reported wolves to a biologist once.  The next day I think it was 7 folks showed up with cross country skiis.  I watched them ski a mile or so up the hill turn around and come back.  They ruled it a coyote.   The photo I took of the wolves ended up in the northwest postman. LOL

  I have ZERO faith.

AND I could really care less if Knocker believes me or not.

For me this has less to do with believing you but a path to action and defending hunting. I appreciate your concerns and statements as fact. I understand your lack of trust in the department (warranted) but I also believe YOU, and other like you, need a path to move sportsmen issues forward. My statement is some what rhetorical and not directed specifically at Bone (However it does apply).  Rightly so we don't trust the WDFW. The information is important and CAN make a difference. The question is WHO do you trust, and WHAT circumstances are necessary to divulge such information.

I say this as some one who has reported a Wolf sighting to a WDFW employee I personally know and been scoffed at.  My family had huskies as a kid and being asked if it was one as such infuriated me. I have about as much trust in the system as Bone so I can relate.  IMO we have 2 choices.  ! continue on in Standard operating procedures and hunt till its broken beyond repair. 2 Build a community with those that can be trusted to move issues forward. If you don't think WWC is the group then Who? If none then who will lead the charge and build the rust and how so That I can support them?

[KFhunter]

I won't share with bios or anyone else when I spot a rare endangered orchid (yes, true) or grizz, lynx fisher etc

[Special T]

I won't share with bios or anyone else when I spot a rare endangered orchid (yes, true) or grizz, lynx fisher etc

And Im not sure that I would either after the horrible reception I have had from department employees or the S show we have encountered from the current commission. your statement only backs up my 2 options for actions forward. SOP or Phone a friend

[KFhunter]

What do I get, what do we get if I were to report a grizz on Buttermilk Butte (theoretical), even if I were to attach a photo.   A dozen college interns that likely dont know their sphincter from their elbows scour the area.  So they find tracks, so they find evidence of their feeding, so they find evidence of hair or markings in trees.  THen what.   The entire drainage or area is shut down.   All access blocked, possibly bear hunting stopped.  Those dozen report back to to office, now half the district knows this is where I hunt.  Everyone with an access pass is now in my area, yet I cant.     Do any of the people in the office hunt.  Do they now know where.   What information is leaked, what information is in the press.   
So now what.   Did this great revelation help our cause?  What do you think this information really does. 

There are still people here that dont know or believe there are grizz in 113.  Well, what do I have to prove to them?   

By the way, there is also more to a sighting.   Like finding a denning area, feeding area, at different times of year, tracks, do 95% of the people on here even know what that looks like?  How about these college educated interns?   

I tracked a grizz for about 7 years straight.   Took the same route every year within a day or two.  I've seen a sow and cubs.  WHere do you think those cubs came from.   Found the marking of a big male. How many on here have ever seen these markings.    Why should I point this out to some biologist.   

How about the wolverine I saw last week?  Is that a big deal?   How about all the wolves the last three decades.  Anyone remember how that was handled when they were first here, you know before there was a pack.   Anyone remember coyote hunting being shut down.  ANyone remember alta being closed for three years to hunting? 

I reported wolves to a biologist once.  The next day I think it was 7 folks showed up with cross country skiis.  I watched them ski a mile or so up the hill turn around and come back.  They ruled it a coyote.   The photo I took of the wolves ended up in the northwest postman. LOL

  I have ZERO faith.

AND I could really care less if Knocker believes me or not.

For me this has less to do with believing you but a path to action and defending hunting. I appreciate your concerns and statements as fact. I understand your lack of trust in the department (warranted) but I also believe YOU, and other like you, need a path to move sportsmen issues forward. My statement is some what rhetorical and not directed specifically at Bone (However it does apply).  Rightly so we don't trust the WDFW. The information is important and CAN make a difference. The question is WHO do you trust, and WHAT circumstances are necessary to divulge such information.

I say this as some one who has reported a Wolf sighting to a WDFW employee I personally know and been scoffed at.  My family had huskies as a kid and being asked if it was one as such infuriated me. I have about as much trust in the system as Bone so I can relate.  IMO we have 2 choices.  ! continue on in Standard operating procedures and hunt till its broken beyond repair. 2 Build a community with those that can be trusted to move issues forward. If you don't think WWC is the group then Who? If none then who will lead the charge and build the rust and how so That I can support them?

I guess I don't understand how a pro-hunting group is going to use the information for a benefit to hunters?  I'm not making the leap with ya, or missing something?

[O. Nerka]

I understand your reasoning there Bone even if I'd like to know. I haven't been hunting that long, when did Alta shut down to hunting? Was that in relation to the Lookout pack or for something else?

[Special T]

What do I get, what do we get if I were to report a grizz on Buttermilk Butte (theoretical), even if I were to attach a photo.   A dozen college interns that likely dont know their sphincter from their elbows scour the area.  So they find tracks, so they find evidence of their feeding, so they find evidence of hair or markings in trees.  THen what.   The entire drainage or area is shut down.   All access blocked, possibly bear hunting stopped.  Those dozen report back to to office, now half the district knows this is where I hunt.  Everyone with an access pass is now in my area, yet I cant.     Do any of the people in the office hunt.  Do they now know where.   What information is leaked, what information is in the press.   
So now what.   Did this great revelation help our cause?  What do you think this information really does. 

There are still people here that dont know or believe there are grizz in 113.  Well, what do I have to prove to them?   

By the way, there is also more to a sighting.   Like finding a denning area, feeding area, at different times of year, tracks, do 95% of the people on here even know what that looks like?  How about these college educated interns?   

I tracked a grizz for about 7 years straight.   Took the same route every year within a day or two.  I've seen a sow and cubs.  WHere do you think those cubs came from.   Found the marking of a big male. How many on here have ever seen these markings.    Why should I point this out to some biologist.   

How about the wolverine I saw last week?  Is that a big deal?   How about all the wolves the last three decades.  Anyone remember how that was handled when they were first here, you know before there was a pack.   Anyone remember coyote hunting being shut down.  ANyone remember alta being closed for three years to hunting? 

I reported wolves to a biologist once.  The next day I think it was 7 folks showed up with cross country skiis.  I watched them ski a mile or so up the hill turn around and come back.  They ruled it a coyote.   The photo I took of the wolves ended up in the northwest postman. LOL

  I have ZERO faith.

AND I could really care less if Knocker believes me or not.

For me this has less to do with believing you but a path to action and defending hunting. I appreciate your concerns and statements as fact. I understand your lack of trust in the department (warranted) but I also believe YOU, and other like you, need a path to move sportsmen issues forward. My statement is some what rhetorical and not directed specifically at Bone (However it does apply).  Rightly so we don't trust the WDFW. The information is important and CAN make a difference. The question is WHO do you trust, and WHAT circumstances are necessary to divulge such information.

I say this as some one who has reported a Wolf sighting to a WDFW employee I personally know and been scoffed at.  My family had huskies as a kid and being asked if it was one as such infuriated me. I have about as much trust in the system as Bone so I can relate.  IMO we have 2 choices.  ! continue on in Standard operating procedures and hunt till its broken beyond repair. 2 Build a community with those that can be trusted to move issues forward. If you don't think WWC is the group then Who? If none then who will lead the charge and build the rust and how so That I can support them?

I guess I don't understand how a pro-hunting group is going to use the information for a benefit to hunters?  I'm not making the leap with ya, or missing something?

Sportsmen need to rally behind sportsmen's groups. Non profit rules and such make the line between Lobbying and Advocacy difficult for non profits. A Line that Animal rights activists are willing to ride the Razors edge and sportsmen groups are not. Sportsmen's Alliance, SCI and WWC are groups that try and ride that line (From my observation) most others are conservation based. The only overtly political group in this state is the Hunters Heritage council. The difference gets into the weeds and is worth a separate discussion. IMO all 3 are good organizations, however SCI and WWC are best for this state. Why Might you ask? ALL SCI chapters are member organizations of  WWC. WWC also has numerous sportsmen clubs that belong in large part to the founding storyline. WWC was founded around the banning of hound hunting, I know this because of conversations I have had with WWC members like Bushcraft and others involved in the organization. WWC is the a collaboration of sportsmen's organization so that synergistic advancements can take place. I belong to several sportsmen orgs and clubs. Each have a different tolerance for outreach and advocacy depending on membership.

So the question is what can they do? While I cannot answer that question for WWC, SCI or Sportsmen's Alliance I will give my best sales pitch. A dedicated group of sportsmen that are aligned with our cause NEEDS information. Some of that information can be had by information requests, and some of that can be had at the source. Even better is the kind of information that sharpens the point where questions can be asked that you already have the answers to, and if the Department/state lies they are screwed.

Fact is this still doesn't overcome sportsmen's general distrust. No superman exists, and Animal rights Activists give freely and don share our hang ups or distrust.

"If not me, who? And if not now, when?"

Answer me that question and I will follow. if you cannot I will push forward in my assertions.

[boneaddict]

There was a pack of wolves in Libby creek roughly 88-91 or so.  Wolf bait and I were both working for the forest service.  We were all taken to a conference room, where we were told, mums the word or lose our jobs. I was a 18, 19 year old kid. I could have cared less about the wolves.  It was after that sometime, and I don’t recall which reg change was first. They shut down coyote hunting durning hunting season, probably to reduce incidental kills. By all means they didn’t want to,announce, watch for wolves.  Then Alta shut down for 3 years hunting.   I really. Enjoyed some of the shed antlers I found after that, and the bucks that were around.  The year that opened up I bet it was gangbusters. This of course was them trying to establish a pack long before they finally had to announce their presence.