Free: Contests & Raffles.
Since it keeps getting mentioned and I haven't seen it posted: https://manulifeimlanduse.com/sites/default/files/property-recreation-maps/kapowsin-2024-rulesfinal.pdfThe most pertinent sections seem to be #4-5.Been trying to avoid this one , but I have to wonder how different some responses might be if it was a different landowner involved. Being consistently supportive of landowners' rights and wishes seems universal on this forum over the years.Say the hunter meets with said landowner and is told he can hunt deer, bear, small game, etc. and can also collect berries, mushrooms and firewood. He gets a key to come and go mostly as he pleases. Landowner says something like, "Oh, btw, we manage our own bull elk hunts and you can't even enter the property during elk seasons unless you have specific permission in the form of one of our permits." They've been doing this for decades and everybody in the local hunting community is amply aware of it. The hunting community is also aware of the mature bulls the area grows because of this program. All is good until the hunter pops an exceptional bull elk courtesy of his raffle tag, which he never mentioned he had. Hunter's response is something along the lines of, "Well, you didn't say I couldn't..."Is this situation really that much different because it's the faceless "Manulife Global" and their written rules weren't explicit enough despite the intent?
Quote from: Bullkllr on October 21, 2024, 08:29:09 AMSay the hunter meets with said landowner and is told he can hunt deer, bear, small game, etc. and can also collect berries, mushrooms and firewood. He gets a key to come and go mostly as he pleases. Landowner says something like, "Oh, btw, we manage our own bull elk hunts and you can't even enter the property during elk seasons unless you have specific permission in the form of one of our permits." They've been doing this for decades and everybody in the local hunting community is amply aware of it. The hunting community is also aware of the mature bulls the area grows because of this program. All is good until the hunter pops an exceptional bull elk courtesy of his raffle tag, which he never mentioned he had. Hunter's response is something along the lines of, "Well, you didn't say I couldn't..."Is this situation really that much different because it's the faceless "Manulife Global" and their written rules weren't explicit enough despite the intent?Thanks for posting the rules as that is helpful for an informed discussion on the topic. The above hypothetical 1 on 1 in-person conversation is a nice thought to consider, but far from the actual experience of dealing with Kapowsin. In your proposed situation, it would have absolutely been very different for me. During the recent process, it wasn't even possible to have a conversation with anybody (including the admin). Email only. There is a difference in working an unreachable faceless entity that you pay for certain access via their rules than some Farmer Joe being kind and letting you on their land and saying some "oh by the way"... It really isn't more complicated than has already been described. They don't regulate elk harvest; they regulate access during general season. Some unknown "community", of which i am clearly not a part, seems to magically know their unspoken intent behind the rules. Unless the people on this forum were telling a tall tale, hunting the raffle tag was allowed in the very recent past (no rule changes since). Did their unspoken intentions change since then? Hindsight says I should have probably asked for specific permission rather than going by the letter of the law or by historical precedent. I paid the price and will continue to take criticism here for some time. I hope someone is at least having fun reading this...
Say the hunter meets with said landowner and is told he can hunt deer, bear, small game, etc. and can also collect berries, mushrooms and firewood. He gets a key to come and go mostly as he pleases. Landowner says something like, "Oh, btw, we manage our own bull elk hunts and you can't even enter the property during elk seasons unless you have specific permission in the form of one of our permits." They've been doing this for decades and everybody in the local hunting community is amply aware of it. The hunting community is also aware of the mature bulls the area grows because of this program. All is good until the hunter pops an exceptional bull elk courtesy of his raffle tag, which he never mentioned he had. Hunter's response is something along the lines of, "Well, you didn't say I couldn't..."Is this situation really that much different because it's the faceless "Manulife Global" and their written rules weren't explicit enough despite the intent?
Quote from: cjensen on October 21, 2024, 10:22:43 AMQuote from: Bullkllr on October 21, 2024, 08:29:09 AMSay the hunter meets with said landowner and is told he can hunt deer, bear, small game, etc. and can also collect berries, mushrooms and firewood. He gets a key to come and go mostly as he pleases. Landowner says something like, "Oh, btw, we manage our own bull elk hunts and you can't even enter the property during elk seasons unless you have specific permission in the form of one of our permits." They've been doing this for decades and everybody in the local hunting community is amply aware of it. The hunting community is also aware of the mature bulls the area grows because of this program. All is good until the hunter pops an exceptional bull elk courtesy of his raffle tag, which he never mentioned he had. Hunter's response is something along the lines of, "Well, you didn't say I couldn't..."Is this situation really that much different because it's the faceless "Manulife Global" and their written rules weren't explicit enough despite the intent?Thanks for posting the rules as that is helpful for an informed discussion on the topic. The above hypothetical 1 on 1 in-person conversation is a nice thought to consider, but far from the actual experience of dealing with Kapowsin. In your proposed situation, it would have absolutely been very different for me. During the recent process, it wasn't even possible to have a conversation with anybody (including the admin). Email only. There is a difference in working an unreachable faceless entity that you pay for certain access via their rules than some Farmer Joe being kind and letting you on their land and saying some "oh by the way"... It really isn't more complicated than has already been described. They don't regulate elk harvest; they regulate access during general season. Some unknown "community", of which i am clearly not a part, seems to magically know their unspoken intent behind the rules. Unless the people on this forum were telling a tall tale, hunting the raffle tag was allowed in the very recent past (no rule changes since). Did their unspoken intentions change since then? Hindsight says I should have probably asked for specific permission rather than going by the letter of the law or by historical precedent. I paid the price and will continue to take criticism here for some time. I hope someone is at least having fun reading this... I'm just saying how Kapowsin manages elk season access is widely known, but you knew that. And essentially restricting access amounts to managing harvest.I've read through all the pages of posts. I can't find the historical precedent mentioned, but I must say that would change my perspective dramatically. Romulus I believe mentioned he held a raffle tag and was denied hunting it on the tree farm. Have fun. Great bull, not much else to say...
This whole situation, the excuse that you used the forum for the rules and not contacting kapowsin, the shameless YouTube plugs, it all reeks of 💩. I think you knew exactly what you were doing. I think this is further indication of where hunting is going in the future and a bad look for our community. I think I posted in my initial post I said good on you for reading between the lines, but now that I think about the circumstances of your raffle and some of the absolute giants I see killed in this state that don’t require reading between the lines, kind of just makes this not even really worth it.
So i spent sometime on this in the morning and looked around and thru the reg's and Kapowsin's rules and what it looks like to me- He obtained this coveted "raffle"tag sometime in what April? Remembers seeing something that was posted on here in 2015 about a previous winner of the tag. Thru those threads there were varying ideas and opinions of the way the state Reg's and Kapowsin "rules" read and what they were intended to provide as far as guidance to the hunter. With an expensive tag purchased most people would want to be absolutely sure of their destination, and that destination would provide great opportunities to harvest a great bull AND that you could in fact hunt elk on that property out of "normal" season as provided by the tag you had. Instead he-Concocts a plan to go in and hunt the Kapowsin tree farm, ( bear if anybody asks), and buys an access pass that allows you to hunt various animals during their regulated seasons. However because Kapowsin doesn't allow bull elk hunting except for certain dates depending on your chosen weapon, his raffle tag says he can hunt from Sept. 1 thru December 31st or whatever with whatever weapon HE CHOOSES. So he buys 2 access passes (allegedly) and he and his brother go in and film him taking the bull of a lifetime shot on Sept, 20th just after archery season but before the muzzleloaders, with his modern rifle. What would Kapowsin mgnt. think you were in there to shoot in Sept in the rut? But i guess if nobody asksNON of this happened by chance... it was a calculated move. The tag you possessed was never divulged to the property owners because you believed they wouldn't have allowed you to hunt in there so you kept quiet and exploited an opportunity. It may have worked out for you in terms of getting your tag filled but all the things this site likes to hang its hat on like character, integrity, decency, stewardship of conservation took a huge hit with your big adventure.Probably why many old-timers on this site that have gone really quiet around this story-By chance? NahI've said my peace you will be lucky if your only punishment is not being able to come back
Quote from: Feathernfurr on October 21, 2024, 04:29:45 PMThis whole situation, the excuse that you used the forum for the rules and not contacting kapowsin, the shameless YouTube plugs, it all reeks of 💩. I think you knew exactly what you were doing. I think this is further indication of where hunting is going in the future and a bad look for our community. I think I posted in my initial post I said good on you for reading between the lines, but now that I think about the circumstances of your raffle and some of the absolute giants I see killed in this state that don’t require reading between the lines, kind of just makes this not even really worth it.Well maybe tomorrow when you change your mind you can come back and leave another comment. Who cares about the size of the elk or anybody else's elk. I wasn't going for some monster or concerned what you or anybody else thought of it. As for the youtube, my brother is excited about his channel. He hasn't made a dime and isn't even close to doing so, but we are having fun being hacks and making some amateur hunting videos. Tons of us in this state and everywhere else would love to be Meateater or some variant and make a living hunting! Having said that, if I was doing this for money, this would be the worst investment in history. I went to a hunting forum to share hunting pictures and hunting videos only to have you offended that I share/plug such a thing. What did you hope to read about and watch here buddy?