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Author Topic: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**  (Read 31180 times)

Offline JakeLand

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #120 on: October 21, 2024, 08:20:58 AM »
Man you’re going to have a heck of a taxidermy bill this year !!!! 3rd world problems 😂

Offline Bullkllr

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #121 on: October 21, 2024, 08:29:09 AM »
Since it keeps getting mentioned and I haven't seen it posted: https://manulifeimlanduse.com/sites/default/files/property-recreation-maps/kapowsin-2024-rulesfinal.pdf

The most pertinent sections seem to be #4-5.

Been trying to avoid this one :bash:, but I have to wonder how different some responses might be if it was a different landowner involved. Being consistently supportive of landowners' rights and wishes seems universal on this forum over the years.

Say the hunter meets with said landowner and is told he can hunt deer, bear, small game, etc. and can also collect berries, mushrooms and firewood. He gets a key to come and go mostly as he pleases. Landowner says something like, "Oh, btw, we manage our own bull elk hunts and you can't even enter the property during elk seasons unless you have specific permission in the form of one of our permits."  They've been doing this for decades and everybody in the local hunting community is amply aware of it. The hunting community is also aware of the mature bulls the area grows because of this program. All is good until the hunter pops an exceptional bull elk courtesy of his raffle tag, which he never mentioned he had. Hunter's response is something along the lines of, "Well, you didn't say I couldn't..."

Is this situation really that much different because it's the faceless "Manulife  Global" and their written rules weren't explicit enough despite the intent?

 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2024, 10:04:08 AM by Bullkllr »
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Offline cjensen

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #122 on: October 21, 2024, 10:22:43 AM »
Since it keeps getting mentioned and I haven't seen it posted: https://manulifeimlanduse.com/sites/default/files/property-recreation-maps/kapowsin-2024-rulesfinal.pdf

The most pertinent sections seem to be #4-5.

Been trying to avoid this one :bash:, but I have to wonder how different some responses might be if it was a different landowner involved. Being consistently supportive of landowners' rights and wishes seems universal on this forum over the years.

Say the hunter meets with said landowner and is told he can hunt deer, bear, small game, etc. and can also collect berries, mushrooms and firewood. He gets a key to come and go mostly as he pleases. Landowner says something like, "Oh, btw, we manage our own bull elk hunts and you can't even enter the property during elk seasons unless you have specific permission in the form of one of our permits."  They've been doing this for decades and everybody in the local hunting community is amply aware of it. The hunting community is also aware of the mature bulls the area grows because of this program. All is good until the hunter pops an exceptional bull elk courtesy of his raffle tag, which he never mentioned he had. Hunter's response is something along the lines of, "Well, you didn't say I couldn't..."

Is this situation really that much different because it's the faceless "Manulife  Global" and their written rules weren't explicit enough despite the intent?

Thanks for posting the rules as that is helpful for an informed discussion on the topic.   The above hypothetical 1 on 1 in-person conversation is a nice thought to consider, but far from the actual experience of dealing with Kapowsin.  In your proposed situation, it would have absolutely been very different for me.  During the recent process, it wasn't even possible to have a conversation with anybody (including the admin).  Email only.   There is a difference in working an unreachable faceless entity that you pay for certain access via their rules than some Farmer Joe being kind and letting you on their land and saying some "oh by the way"...

It really isn't more complicated than has already been described.   They don't regulate elk harvest; they regulate access during general season.   Some unknown "community", of which i am clearly not a part, seems to magically know their unspoken intent behind the rules.  Unless the people on this forum were telling a tall tale, hunting the raffle tag was allowed in the very recent past (no rule changes since).  Did their unspoken intentions change since then?  Hindsight says I should have probably asked for specific permission rather than going by the letter of the law or by historical precedent.   I paid the price and will continue to take criticism here for some time.  I hope someone is at least having fun reading this... :)   

Offline Caseyd

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #123 on: October 21, 2024, 10:27:00 AM »
Since it keeps getting mentioned and I haven't seen it posted: https://manulifeimlanduse.com/sites/default/files/property-recreation-maps/kapowsin-2024-rulesfinal.pdf

The most pertinent sections seem to be #4-5.

Been trying to avoid this one :bash:, but I have to wonder how different some responses might be if it was a different landowner involved. Being consistently supportive of landowners' rights and wishes seems universal on this forum over the years.

Say the hunter meets with said landowner and is told he can hunt deer, bear, small game, etc. and can also collect berries, mushrooms and firewood. He gets a key to come and go mostly as he pleases. Landowner says something like, "Oh, btw, we manage our own bull elk hunts and you can't even enter the property during elk seasons unless you have specific permission in the form of one of our permits."  They've been doing this for decades and everybody in the local hunting community is amply aware of it. The hunting community is also aware of the mature bulls the area grows because of this program. All is good until the hunter pops an exceptional bull elk courtesy of his raffle tag, which he never mentioned he had. Hunter's response is something along the lines of, "Well, you didn't say I couldn't..."

Is this situation really that much different because it's the faceless "Manulife  Global" and their written rules weren't explicit enough despite the intent?

He did exactly what you posted. Stayed out of there during elk season  :dunno:

He bought a pass to enter. He just gets to hunt “out of elk season” and not during those restricted times. Yes, we can all assume the raffle tags and governor tag will be added to their rules

Offline Bullkllr

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #124 on: October 21, 2024, 11:03:28 AM »
Say the hunter meets with said landowner and is told he can hunt deer, bear, small game, etc. and can also collect berries, mushrooms and firewood. He gets a key to come and go mostly as he pleases. Landowner says something like, "Oh, btw, we manage our own bull elk hunts and you can't even enter the property during elk seasons unless you have specific permission in the form of one of our permits."  They've been doing this for decades and everybody in the local hunting community is amply aware of it. The hunting community is also aware of the mature bulls the area grows because of this program. All is good until the hunter pops an exceptional bull elk courtesy of his raffle tag, which he never mentioned he had. Hunter's response is something along the lines of, "Well, you didn't say I couldn't..."

Is this situation really that much different because it's the faceless "Manulife  Global" and their written rules weren't explicit enough despite the intent?

Thanks for posting the rules as that is helpful for an informed discussion on the topic.   The above hypothetical 1 on 1 in-person conversation is a nice thought to consider, but far from the actual experience of dealing with Kapowsin.  In your proposed situation, it would have absolutely been very different for me.  During the recent process, it wasn't even possible to have a conversation with anybody (including the admin).  Email only.   There is a difference in working an unreachable faceless entity that you pay for certain access via their rules than some Farmer Joe being kind and letting you on their land and saying some "oh by the way"...

It really isn't more complicated than has already been described.   They don't regulate elk harvest; they regulate access during general season.   Some unknown "community", of which i am clearly not a part, seems to magically know their unspoken intent behind the rules.  Unless the people on this forum were telling a tall tale, hunting the raffle tag was allowed in the very recent past (no rule changes since).  Did their unspoken intentions change since then?  Hindsight says I should have probably asked for specific permission rather than going by the letter of the law or by historical precedent.   I paid the price and will continue to take criticism here for some time.  I hope someone is at least having fun reading this... :)

I'm just saying how Kapowsin manages elk season access is widely known, but you knew that. And essentially restricting access amounts to managing harvest.

I've read through all the pages of posts. I can't find the historical precedent mentioned, but I must say that would change my perspective dramatically. Romulus I believe mentioned he held a raffle tag and was denied hunting it on the tree farm.

Have fun. Great bull, not much else to say...
« Last Edit: October 21, 2024, 11:10:46 AM by Bullkllr »
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Offline deerlick

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #125 on: October 21, 2024, 01:24:59 PM »
there is alot of different landowners inside of hancock/manulife. several that allow their employees to hunt elk on their property's within the boundary's of hancock. the place is a giant elk farm that needs more elk killed anyway.

Offline cjensen

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #126 on: October 21, 2024, 02:57:08 PM »
Say the hunter meets with said landowner and is told he can hunt deer, bear, small game, etc. and can also collect berries, mushrooms and firewood. He gets a key to come and go mostly as he pleases. Landowner says something like, "Oh, btw, we manage our own bull elk hunts and you can't even enter the property during elk seasons unless you have specific permission in the form of one of our permits."  They've been doing this for decades and everybody in the local hunting community is amply aware of it. The hunting community is also aware of the mature bulls the area grows because of this program. All is good until the hunter pops an exceptional bull elk courtesy of his raffle tag, which he never mentioned he had. Hunter's response is something along the lines of, "Well, you didn't say I couldn't..."

Is this situation really that much different because it's the faceless "Manulife  Global" and their written rules weren't explicit enough despite the intent?

Thanks for posting the rules as that is helpful for an informed discussion on the topic.   The above hypothetical 1 on 1 in-person conversation is a nice thought to consider, but far from the actual experience of dealing with Kapowsin.  In your proposed situation, it would have absolutely been very different for me.  During the recent process, it wasn't even possible to have a conversation with anybody (including the admin).  Email only.   There is a difference in working an unreachable faceless entity that you pay for certain access via their rules than some Farmer Joe being kind and letting you on their land and saying some "oh by the way"...

It really isn't more complicated than has already been described.   They don't regulate elk harvest; they regulate access during general season.   Some unknown "community", of which i am clearly not a part, seems to magically know their unspoken intent behind the rules.  Unless the people on this forum were telling a tall tale, hunting the raffle tag was allowed in the very recent past (no rule changes since).  Did their unspoken intentions change since then?  Hindsight says I should have probably asked for specific permission rather than going by the letter of the law or by historical precedent.   I paid the price and will continue to take criticism here for some time.  I hope someone is at least having fun reading this... :)

I'm just saying how Kapowsin manages elk season access is widely known, but you knew that. And essentially restricting access amounts to managing harvest.

I've read through all the pages of posts. I can't find the historical precedent mentioned, but I must say that would change my perspective dramatically. Romulus I believe mentioned he held a raffle tag and was denied hunting it on the tree farm.

Have fun. Great bull, not much else to say...

Thank you!  This is the forum I was referring to: https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,171183.msg2262737.html#msg2262737

Read the third page of this forum where several folks had 1st hand conversations and others on this site were helping some raffle guy.  It references the fact that Kapowsin specifically allowed the raffle tag holder to hunt there, but they couldnt get a pass before it was sold out.   History tells me I was somehow wrong, this thread was wrong, and/or they changed their mind.   I first read and reread the rules, and then I went off of information like this to make what ended up being a last-minute decision when the WR unit hadn't worked out yet.   Again, plenty of lessons learned here about asking permission anyway, and not trusting everything you read on the internet even if you want it to be true...

Offline Romulus

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #127 on: October 21, 2024, 03:29:24 PM »
They probably just deferred to the lack of permits to address the question.....they told me maybe next year if I had that tag.....They dont understand what the raffle even is.  At the end of the day if you had a killed an average 6 point no one likely cares......You got a good older bull so good for you. If you dont mind me asking how long are the beams on your bull?

Offline Feathernfurr

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #128 on: October 21, 2024, 04:29:45 PM »
This whole situation, the excuse that you used the forum for the rules and not contacting kapowsin, the shameless YouTube plugs, it all reeks of 💩. I think you knew exactly what you were doing. I think this is further indication of where hunting is going in the future and a bad look for our community. I think I posted in my initial post I said good on you for reading between the lines, but now that I think about the circumstances of your raffle and some of the absolute giants I see killed in this state that don’t require reading between the lines, kind of just makes this not even really worth it.

Offline cjensen

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #129 on: October 21, 2024, 05:15:47 PM »
This whole situation, the excuse that you used the forum for the rules and not contacting kapowsin, the shameless YouTube plugs, it all reeks of 💩. I think you knew exactly what you were doing. I think this is further indication of where hunting is going in the future and a bad look for our community. I think I posted in my initial post I said good on you for reading between the lines, but now that I think about the circumstances of your raffle and some of the absolute giants I see killed in this state that don’t require reading between the lines, kind of just makes this not even really worth it.
Well maybe tomorrow when you change your mind you can come back and leave another comment.  Who cares about the size of the elk or anybody else's elk. I wasn't going for some monster or concerned what you or anybody else thought of it.  As for the youtube, my brother is excited about his channel.  He hasn't made a dime and isn't even close to doing so, but we are having fun being hacks and making some amateur hunting videos.  Tons of us in this state and everywhere else would love to be Meateater or some variant and make a living hunting!  Having said that, if I was doing this for money, this would be the worst investment in history.  I went to a hunting forum to share hunting pictures and hunting videos only to have you offended that I share/plug such a thing.  What did you hope to read about and watch here buddy?

Offline BA Mongor

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #130 on: October 21, 2024, 05:16:17 PM »
Best Thread Ever !
Great Story....Great Drama & One Big Azz Bull !!

Offline cjensen

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #131 on: October 21, 2024, 05:58:56 PM »
So i spent sometime on this in the morning and looked around and thru the reg's and Kapowsin's rules and what it looks like to me- He obtained this coveted "raffle"tag sometime in what April? Remembers seeing something that was posted on here in 2015 about a previous winner of the tag. Thru those threads there were varying ideas and opinions of the way the state Reg's and Kapowsin "rules" read and what they were intended to provide as far as guidance to the hunter.

With an expensive tag purchased most people would want to be absolutely sure of their destination, and that destination would provide great opportunities to harvest a great bull AND that you could in fact hunt elk on that property out of "normal" season as provided by the tag you had.

Instead he-

Concocts a plan to go in and hunt the Kapowsin tree farm, ( bear if anybody asks), and buys an access pass that allows you to hunt various animals during their regulated seasons. However because Kapowsin doesn't allow bull elk hunting except for certain dates depending on your chosen weapon, his raffle tag says he can hunt from Sept. 1 thru December 31st or whatever with whatever weapon HE CHOOSES.

So he buys 2 access passes (allegedly) and he and his brother go in and film him taking the bull of a lifetime shot on Sept, 20th just after archery season but before the muzzleloaders, with his modern rifle.

What would Kapowsin mgnt. think you were in there to shoot in Sept in the rut? But i guess if nobody asks

NON of this happened by chance... it was a calculated move. The tag you possessed was never divulged to the property owners because you believed they wouldn't have allowed you to hunt in there so you kept quiet and exploited an opportunity.

It may have worked out for you in terms of getting your tag filled but all the things this site likes to hang its hat on like character, integrity, decency, stewardship of conservation took a huge hit with your big adventure.

Probably why many old-timers on this site that have gone really quiet around this story-By chance? Nah

I've said my peace you will be lucky if your only punishment is not being able to come back


 
Cute story but you don't purchase a raffle and you don't find out whether you won until nearly August.  All of my money was spent on moose and westside elk was an afterthought.  This year the Kapowsin passes didn't sell out and were still available in September.  Anyway, we will hear from you tomorrow when you do a bit more reading I'm sure.  Gives ya something to do anyway...

Offline Caseyd

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #132 on: October 21, 2024, 06:03:01 PM »
So i spent sometime on this in the morning and looked around and thru the reg's and Kapowsin's rules and what it looks like to me- He obtained this coveted "raffle"tag sometime in what April? Remembers seeing something that was posted on here in 2015 about a previous winner of the tag. Thru those threads there were varying ideas and opinions of the way the state Reg's and Kapowsin "rules" read and what they were intended to provide as far as guidance to the hunter.

With an expensive tag purchased most people would want to be absolutely sure of their destination, and that destination would provide great opportunities to harvest a great bull AND that you could in fact hunt elk on that property out of "normal" season as provided by the tag you had.

Instead he-

Concocts a plan to go in and hunt the Kapowsin tree farm, ( bear if anybody asks), and buys an access pass that allows you to hunt various animals during their regulated seasons. However because Kapowsin doesn't allow bull elk hunting except for certain dates depending on your chosen weapon, his raffle tag says he can hunt from Sept. 1 thru December 31st or whatever with whatever weapon HE CHOOSES.

So he buys 2 access passes (allegedly) and he and his brother go in and film him taking the bull of a lifetime shot on Sept, 20th just after archery season but before the muzzleloaders, with his modern rifle.

What would Kapowsin mgnt. think you were in there to shoot in Sept in the rut? But i guess if nobody asks

NON of this happened by chance... it was a calculated move. The tag you possessed was never divulged to the property owners because you believed they wouldn't have allowed you to hunt in there so you kept quiet and exploited an opportunity.

It may have worked out for you in terms of getting your tag filled but all the things this site likes to hang its hat on like character, integrity, decency, stewardship of conservation took a huge hit with your big adventure.

Probably why many old-timers on this site that have gone really quiet around this story-By chance? Nah

I've said my peace you will be lucky if your only punishment is not being able to come back


 

Rules usually don’t change until something causes them to be changed. He broke no rules and the rules will probably be changed. We got lucky and he shared the story.

Sounds like the guy researched the duck out of his options and followed everything to the letter.  You might not like what he did but there’s a lot less informed, less decent people running around the woods.

I would have to wager there isn’t much chatter from “old timers” because they’ve said their congrats and moved on.



Offline Feathernfurr

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #133 on: October 21, 2024, 06:42:49 PM »
This whole situation, the excuse that you used the forum for the rules and not contacting kapowsin, the shameless YouTube plugs, it all reeks of 💩. I think you knew exactly what you were doing. I think this is further indication of where hunting is going in the future and a bad look for our community. I think I posted in my initial post I said good on you for reading between the lines, but now that I think about the circumstances of your raffle and some of the absolute giants I see killed in this state that don’t require reading between the lines, kind of just makes this not even really worth it.
Well maybe tomorrow when you change your mind you can come back and leave another comment.  Who cares about the size of the elk or anybody else's elk. I wasn't going for some monster or concerned what you or anybody else thought of it.  As for the youtube, my brother is excited about his channel.  He hasn't made a dime and isn't even close to doing so, but we are having fun being hacks and making some amateur hunting videos.  Tons of us in this state and everywhere else would love to be Meateater or some variant and make a living hunting!  Having said that, if I was doing this for money, this would be the worst investment in history.  I went to a hunting forum to share hunting pictures and hunting videos only to have you offended that I share/plug such a thing.  What did you hope to read about and watch here buddy?

Eh I wouldn’t say I’m offended, just think you’re a bit of a blue falcon to the hunting community, for some clout. Some people hunt because they love it, some hunt because they love attention. I’m probably wrong, but you know they say about perception.

Offline Tinmaniac

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Re: Westside Elk Raffle Tag - Banned for Life - video added**
« Reply #134 on: October 21, 2024, 06:52:45 PM »
Title should read,We were banned for life, assuming brother had his own permit as required by landowner.

 


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