Central Washington Deer Population

[bigmacc]

I forgot about the salt on the roads attracting them to the death lanes. That is something else that wasn’t there 50-70 years ago when the numbers were so high.

And let’s not forget what else wasn’t there 50-70 years ago, an exploding population of cats and bears and the darling of them, all as far as WDFW is concerned ever growing packs of wolves. Everyone knows one cat kills around 50 deer per year, now multiple that by hundreds of cats possibly in that valley(no one really knows)and that’s a hell of a loss every year and that’s not counting what the increasing population of bears have done to the fawn crop over the last 20 years and yes, now throw in wolves, add all those losses together over the last 20-30 years and there’s the number 1 reason this herd has tanked and can’t fight their way back. My opinion.

Predators and prey will self regulate over time. If you go back 200 years ago before the area was settled there was cats, wolves, wolverines, black and grizzly bears and there was far more wildlife than there has ever been since settlement occurred. Yellowstone is a good example of this, it took 30 years after wolves were reintroduced but it’s finally taking shape.

There is one new factor that wasn’t there 200 years ago and that is domestic animals that the predators can feed on when the prey numbers are low and that is why hunting needs to be a tool used to manage predators. Not that the libs will ever understand that though.

Habitat encroachment, roads everywhere, uncrossable manmade barriers, rural development and recreational pressure all work in favor of predators and put the ungulates at a disadvantage. The anti-hunting argument of "leave them alone and they'll naturally self-regulate over time" doesn't hold water, as the modern landscape isn't natural. One could argue since humans have affected their habitat so greatly it is now our duty to manage predators.

Good points. Although some of the areas where homes have been built, tracts of property etc have also become sanctuaries so to speak for deer to escape predators. It’s why some say they see more deer in yards, around town and on private property than they do in the hills over there. As said, good points.

[Romulus1297]

Whats sad is now if people see a herd of 20 deer in a field they run to Huntwa and report all is well, glory days are back.   What they are clueless about is that field used to have 350 in it, and the field next to it, and the field next to that one.   No exaggeration, I'd go shed hunting and count literally a thousand deer in a basin.   Now there might be 5.   I'm not even that frickin' old.  I used to go hunt before I had to ride my bike into work.  I'd look over more than 250deer  in a morning on the ridge outside of town on public land during hunting season.   I would count more deer in less than an hour than Fitkin counted this year in three days on prime winter range.   Just looking at trails and tracks.   Its crazy how a snow covered ridge used to be crisscrossed with game trails, now just snow

I had 25 deer for the first time ever winter on our place and know the glory days are gone. There used to be hundreds of deer across the road from Wells Dam that are gone. Above the tunnel before Chelan in the orchard there were hundreds that are gone.  Pateros to Brewster they are gone and the Methow Valley I was young but saw them in the 70s and 80s in the orchards which are gone. Lower and upper Hooker I don’t even know if you can even get there anymore but i bet they are gone. Why is this the first time ever this many came here? Wolves and cougars moved them down here where they were safe until the deer wanted to play on Highway 97A

[Skyvalhunter]

There was a study of collared deer in the Methow valley showing a majority of those deer had moved to the orchards around Chelan. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out predators forced them out.

[teal101]

I forgot about the salt on the roads attracting them to the death lanes. That is something else that wasn’t there 50-70 years ago when the numbers were so high.

And let’s not forget what else wasn’t there 50-70 years ago, an exploding population of cats and bears and the darling of them, all as far as WDFW is concerned ever growing packs of wolves. Everyone knows one cat kills around 50 deer per year, now multiple that by hundreds of cats possibly in that valley(no one really knows)and that’s a hell of a loss every year and that’s not counting what the increasing population of bears have done to the fawn crop over the last 20 years and yes, now throw in wolves, add all those losses together over the last 20-30 years and there’s the number 1 reason this herd has tanked and can’t fight their way back. My opinion.

Predators and prey will self regulate over time. If you go back 200 years ago before the area was settled there was cats, wolves, wolverines, black and grizzly bears and there was far more wildlife than there has ever been since settlement occurred. Yellowstone is a good example of this, it took 30 years after wolves were reintroduced but it’s finally taking shape.

There is one new factor that wasn’t there 200 years ago and that is domestic animals that the predators can feed on when the prey numbers are low and that is why hunting needs to be a tool used to manage predators. Not that the libs will ever understand that though.

Habitat encroachment, roads everywhere, uncrossable manmade barriers, rural development and recreational pressure all work in favor of predators and put the ungulates at a disadvantage. The anti-hunting argument of "leave them alone and they'll naturally self-regulate over time" doesn't hold water, as the modern landscape isn't natural. One could argue since humans have affected their habitat so greatly it is now our duty to manage predators.

Bingo.  One of the biggest issues facing mule deer management today is human encroachment on critical winter range.  The more homes that pop up and the more yards that are developed, the less habitat there is.  There is no going back to the way things were before humans so we have to manage as such.

[teal101]

There was a study of collared deer in the Methow valley showing a majority of those deer had moved to the orchards around Chelan. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out predators forced them out.

That would be an interesting study to read, have a link?

[Twispriver]

I wonder what effect the absence of logging on the National Forest has had on deer populations over the last thirty years or so. I think that mid elevation logging units provided a lot of spring, summer and fall forage that isn't available any longer. Combine that with large ag operations that are now small plots with homes, cabins and dogs, outdoor recreation 24/7/365 and the modern approach to predator management and it's easier for me to understand why things have changed.

Maybe without logging, agriculture and predator eradication there never would have been the giant herds the 1960s and 70s that we all wish were here today.

[Karl Blanchard]

I wonder what effect the absence of logging on the National Forest has had on deer populations over the last thirty years or so. I think that mid elevation logging units provided a lot of spring, summer and fall forage that isn't available any longer. Combine that with large ag operations that are now small plots with homes, cabins and dogs, outdoor recreation 24/7/365 and the modern approach to predator management and it's easier for me to understand why things have changed.

Maybe without logging, agriculture and predator eradication there never would have been the giant herds the 1960s and 70s that we all wish were here today.

summer range is AS important or more important than winter range. Fire suppression as well as lack of logging has been extremely detriment to mule deer.

[CarbonHunter]

I wonder what effect the absence of logging on the National Forest has had on deer populations over the last thirty years or so. I think that mid elevation logging units provided a lot of spring, summer and fall forage that isn't available any longer. Combine that with large ag operations that are now small plots with homes, cabins and dogs, outdoor recreation 24/7/365 and the modern approach to predator management and it's easier for me to understand why things have changed.

Maybe without logging, agriculture and predator eradication there never would have been the giant herds the 1960s and 70s that we all wish were here today.

summer range is AS important or more important than winter range. Fire suppression as well as lack of logging has been extremely detriment to mule deer.

Part of the reason why they don’t leave private winter range is that there is no longer greener pastures up the hill on forest service land like there used to be.

[NOCK NOCK]

I wonder what effect the absence of logging on the National Forest has had on deer populations over the last thirty years or so. I think that mid elevation logging units provided a lot of spring, summer and fall forage that isn't available any longer. Combine that with large ag operations that are now small plots with homes, cabins and dogs, outdoor recreation 24/7/365 and the modern approach to predator management and it's easier for me to understand why things have changed.

Maybe without logging, agriculture and predator eradication there never would have been the giant herds the 1960s and 70s that we all wish were here today.

summer range is AS important or more important than winter range. Fire suppression as well as lack of logging has been extremely detriment to mule deer.

This is where I struggle. I get ya on the fire suppression, but at the same time they are letting fires burn up a ton of country. MD are surely adapt at avoiding some fires, but when they get big (fires) it's gotta be hard to outrun a blaze. Think Pioneer, Duncan, Wolverine, Tyee, Cougar, Thirtymile, Carlton, Okanogan, black canyon, retreat, Tripod, domke, etc etc............ We have burned up alot of deer, and at the same time habitat...,..which allows for more harvest due to visibility. 

[Karl Blanchard]

I wonder what effect the absence of logging on the National Forest has had on deer populations over the last thirty years or so. I think that mid elevation logging units provided a lot of spring, summer and fall forage that isn't available any longer. Combine that with large ag operations that are now small plots with homes, cabins and dogs, outdoor recreation 24/7/365 and the modern approach to predator management and it's easier for me to understand why things have changed.

Maybe without logging, agriculture and predator eradication there never would have been the giant herds the 1960s and 70s that we all wish were here today.

summer range is AS important or more important than winter range. Fire suppression as well as lack of logging has been extremely detriment to mule deer.

This is where I struggle. I get ya on the fire suppression, but at the same time they are letting fires burn up a ton of country. MD are surely adapt at avoiding some fires, but when they get big (fires) it's gotta be hard to outrun a blaze. Think Pioneer, Duncan, Wolverine, Tyee, Cougar, Thirtymile, Carlton, Okanogan, black canyon, retreat, Tripod, domke, etc etc............ We have burned up alot of deer, and at the same time habitat...,..which allows for more harvest due to visibility.

All those mega fires are due to humans mismanaging our forests for the last 100 years. Mother natures design wasn't meant to have that kind of fuel load on the landscape.  Instead of stuff burning every now and then and improving habitat, we put out every spark for decades then when it does go up it's scorched earth and can't support anything. 

[sooperfly]

Disclaimer!: None of what I'm posting is claiming to be scientific in nature, it's just one persons observations.

I have a large number cams out in the Methow, from the border down to the mouth.  All but a few are cell cams. I've only had them out since the 2014 fire.   The last two years they've captured drastically more deer than in previous years.  Lots and lots of bucks, some pretty nice ones by my standards.  My lower elevation cams have way higher deer counts than my upper elevation ones.  Lately, our property on the valley floor has the most deer year-round on it than I can remember, pre or post fire. Quite a few of both muley and whitetail. 

I spend a lot of time in the Lake-Chelan Sawtooth and Pasayten and a lot of trips I don't see a dang deer.  I wish I had more data as our family has been in the valley since the late 1800's.  Dang '48 flood took out the family home and precious few pictures, etc. survived. 

I got my first wolf picture in the valley in I think 2009- there's a post on here somewhere about it - now it's commonplace. I encounter them often riding the FS roads and hiking.  I'm getting at least the same, if not more number of wolf pics than coyotes.  My cams everywhere get them. 

Here's a couple trail cam vids from this fall and more recently.  The 3/14 vid is 3-15 second clips, so there's a little stutter between each section, it kind of jumps. Hard to tell for certain with the transitions, but for sure there's at least 8.  Tougher living now to be a deer in the Methow for sure.

[actionshooter]

I wonder what effect the absence of logging on the National Forest has had on deer populations over the last thirty years or so. I think that mid elevation logging units provided a lot of spring, summer and fall forage that isn't available any longer. Combine that with large ag operations that are now small plots with homes, cabins and dogs, outdoor recreation 24/7/365 and the modern approach to predator management and it's easier for me to understand why things have changed.

Maybe without logging, agriculture and predator eradication there never would have been the giant herds the 1960s and 70s that we all wish were here today.

summer range is AS important or more important than winter range. Fire suppression as well as lack of logging has been extremely detriment to mule deer.

This is where I struggle. I get ya on the fire suppression, but at the same time they are letting fires burn up a ton of country. MD are surely adapt at avoiding some fires, but when they get big (fires) it's gotta be hard to outrun a blaze. Think Pioneer, Duncan, Wolverine, Tyee, Cougar, Thirtymile, Carlton, Okanogan, black canyon, retreat, Tripod, domke, etc etc............ We have burned up alot of deer, and at the same time habitat...,..which allows for more harvest due to visibility.

All those mega fires are due to humans mismanaging our forests for the last 100 years. Mother natures design wasn't meant to have that kind of fuel load on the landscape.  Instead of stuff burning every now and then and improving habitat, we put out every spark for decades then when it does go up it's scorched earth and can't support anything. 

I believe this is 100% true and super happy the fire suppression issue is starting to be recognized and I believe that can be turned around.... with all of the developments and orchards in the winter grounds, not as sure about that.

[Skyvalhunter]

The USFS has been running up the cost of these mega fires i.e. complex and last years Pioneer fire by doing things that aren't even close to the fire zone. If your going to brush back roads, dump gravel on those areas not close to the fire it shouldn't be charged to it. Then to build fire breaks in case the fire gets that big don't go back in and tear it up afterwards. Leave it for future usage. All this adds to the fire cost.

[OutHouse]

The USFS has been running up the cost of these mega fires i.e. complex and last years Pioneer fire by doing things that aren't even close to the fire zone. If your going to brush back roads, dump gravel on those areas not close to the fire it shouldn't be charged to it. Then to build fire breaks in case the fire gets that big don't go back in and tear it up afterwards. Leave it for future usage. All this adds to the fire cost.

Good point. When that big fire ripped through Mazama on the south side of the highway a few years ago they cut wide fire breaks in the forest, and then I saw them spend weeks digging them up and throwing logs into them to make them hard to drive on should be people try to. I imagine that cost a ton of money.

[timberfaller]

There are a few people in the USFS, who know what needs done in their districts.  Since the words, logging and road building are "trigger's" for all the Eco-freak attorney's and their auto-file injunctions, these few people use fire's to get some of the needed jobs done without interference!  Personal experience and the "few people" really is a very few!

The Pioneer fire last year had a new element coming into fire scenes, political pressure by area "dwellers". Just my   In all my years, it is the only thing that makes any sense of the weird stuff that went on.