2025 Big Game Rules are out!

[CarbonHunter]

On the flip side, the department by their own omissions know very little about the actual carrying capacity of the landscape. They don't test body fat percentages on deer or elk post hunting season total determine animal health. They count very small portions of these animals actual range at least with deer they only tally adults and yearlings. They don't separate bucks from doe's. We aren't collating calves and fawns to determine main causes of mortality, etc, etc, etc. 

Maybe that additional info is out there somewhere but I sure can't find it and the data they do put out doesn't match what I see in my backyard

Are you seeing deer and elk that are starving to death in the winter in your backyard?  I haven’t heard of any mass die offs in Washington due to starvation. I’ve heard a lot about predators killing deer and elk but haven’t heard about starvation being an issue.

[Karl Blanchard]

On the flip side, the department by their own omissions know very little about the actual carrying capacity of the landscape. They don't test body fat percentages on deer or elk post hunting season total determine animal health. They count very small portions of these animals actual range at least with deer they only tally adults and yearlings. They don't separate bucks from doe's. We aren't collating calves and fawns to determine main causes of mortality, etc, etc, etc. 

Maybe that additional info is out there somewhere but I sure can't find it and the data they do put out doesn't match what I see in my backyard

Are you seeing deer and elk that are starving to death in the winter in your backyard?  I haven’t heard of any mass die offs in Washington due to starvation. I’ve heard a lot about predators killing deer and elk but haven’t heard about starvation being an issue.

elk are survivors.  Take some very poor elk habitat and a very harsh winter to kill them off.  Deer on the other hand, are more suseptible to poor habitat and winters. Our deer are not healthy, full stop. Just because they aren't dying of starvation doesn't mean their health isn't affecting recruitment and retention.  Winter range has been reduced to cheat grass. Summer range is choked out by unmanaged conifer forests, and the usable summer range is choked out by elk.  Low body fat directly correlates to low reproduction and survival rate of new fawns. All of this is well documented by other states and groups like the Monteith Shop out of Wyoming.  Predators are not the leading cause of the Yakima deer herds inability to grow. That's a hill I'll 100% die on. The carrying capacity just isn't there anymore. 

If I'm wrong I'll eat crow, but I've logged thousands of field days in these GMU's. I've seen first hand the deterioration of the landscape.  Deer aren't elk. Elk will move to survive. Deer will live and die in their home area. If those areas dry up they may not be occupied for decades or ever if the habitat isn't restored. The simple fact is the department isn't figuring out the what, why, and how. Maybe that's a funding issue    Or maybe they don't really care to 

[dreamingbig]

I've made an excel sheet for quality elk by hunt choice, available tags, year-to-year percentage increase/decrease from 2014 to present year. I'm not an excel wiz, so this took awhile to build. Here's an interesting one for Quality elk choice Eastern Archery Peaches Ridge...

2014/134 tags
2015/126 tags
2016/134 tags
2017/104 tags
2018/58 tags
2019/10 tags
2020/10 tags
2021/9 tags
2022/8 tags
2023/8 tags
2024/6 tags
2025/6 tags

Overall available quality tags by year:
2014/1070 tags
2015/1100 tags
2016/1146 tags
2017/1123 tags
2018/860 tags
2019/558 tags
2020/464 tags
2021/539 tags
2022/469 tags
2023/457 tags
2024/460 tags
2025/366 tags

Thanks for sharing.  THIS is what I have been ranting about.  It still is not supported by the biology.  The herd can support so much more especially in archery season.

Y’all should see the age class explosion that has happened.


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[CarbonHunter]

On the flip side, the department by their own omissions know very little about the actual carrying capacity of the landscape. They don't test body fat percentages on deer or elk post hunting season total determine animal health. They count very small portions of these animals actual range at least with deer they only tally adults and yearlings. They don't separate bucks from doe's. We aren't collating calves and fawns to determine main causes of mortality, etc, etc, etc. 

Maybe that additional info is out there somewhere but I sure can't find it and the data they do put out doesn't match what I see in my backyard

Are you seeing deer and elk that are starving to death in the winter in your backyard?  I haven’t heard of any mass die offs in Washington due to starvation. I’ve heard a lot about predators killing deer and elk but haven’t heard about starvation being an issue.

elk are survivors.  Take some very poor elk habitat and a very harsh winter to kill them off.  Deer on the other hand, are more suseptible to poor habitat and winters. Our deer are not healthy, full stop. Just because they aren't dying of starvation doesn't mean their health isn't affecting recruitment and retention.  Winter range has been reduced to cheat grass. Summer range is choked out by unmanaged conifer forests, and the usable summer range is choked out by elk.  Low body fat directly correlates to low reproduction and survival rate of new fawns. All of this is well documented by other states and groups like the Monteith Shop out of Wyoming.  Predators are not the leading cause of the Yakima deer herds inability to grow. That's a hill I'll 100% die on. The carrying capacity just isn't there anymore. 

If I'm wrong I'll eat crow, but I've logged thousands of field days in these GMU's. I've seen first hand the deterioration of the landscape.  Deer aren't elk. Elk will move to survive. Deer will live and die in their home area. If those areas dry up they may not be occupied for decades or ever if the habitat isn't restored. The simple fact is the department isn't figuring out the what, why, and how. Maybe that's a funding issue    Or maybe they don't really care to 

I agree the herd is not as health as it used to be but I’m optimistic that with the wildfires over the last 7 years that the carrying capacity of the Yakima area is actually getting better and not worse. A lot of the decline that occurred with the mule deer was related to disease and then followed by habitat loss. Now that the ground burned and there is logging taking place again the herds should start to recover.

When herds are recovering one of the worse things to do is to open up the hunting too soon. The other is to keep it locked down too long.

I personally feel the reason the herds are so small compared to 20-30 years ago is because of over hunting of the quality animals when the habitat was shrinking and disease was setting in. I feel if we give it a few more years and let the quality animals (squash tribal and poaching) grow we could start to see decent hunting again. If we open it up too soon it’ll never get back to where it should be.

[Karl Blanchard]

On the flip side, the department by their own omissions know very little about the actual carrying capacity of the landscape. They don't test body fat percentages on deer or elk post hunting season total determine animal health. They count very small portions of these animals actual range at least with deer they only tally adults and yearlings. They don't separate bucks from doe's. We aren't collating calves and fawns to determine main causes of mortality, etc, etc, etc. 

Maybe that additional info is out there somewhere but I sure can't find it and the data they do put out doesn't match what I see in my backyard

Are you seeing deer and elk that are starving to death in the winter in your backyard?  I haven’t heard of any mass die offs in Washington due to starvation. I’ve heard a lot about predators killing deer and elk but haven’t heard about starvation being an issue.

elk are survivors.  Take some very poor elk habitat and a very harsh winter to kill them off.  Deer on the other hand, are more suseptible to poor habitat and winters. Our deer are not healthy, full stop. Just because they aren't dying of starvation doesn't mean their health isn't affecting recruitment and retention.  Winter range has been reduced to cheat grass. Summer range is choked out by unmanaged conifer forests, and the usable summer range is choked out by elk.  Low body fat directly correlates to low reproduction and survival rate of new fawns. All of this is well documented by other states and groups like the Monteith Shop out of Wyoming.  Predators are not the leading cause of the Yakima deer herds inability to grow. That's a hill I'll 100% die on. The carrying capacity just isn't there anymore. 

If I'm wrong I'll eat crow, but I've logged thousands of field days in these GMU's. I've seen first hand the deterioration of the landscape.  Deer aren't elk. Elk will move to survive. Deer will live and die in their home area. If those areas dry up they may not be occupied for decades or ever if the habitat isn't restored. The simple fact is the department isn't figuring out the what, why, and how. Maybe that's a funding issue    Or maybe they don't really care to 

I agree the herd is not as health as it used to be but I’m optimistic that with the wildfires over the last 7 years that the carrying capacity of the Yakima area is actually getting better and not worse. A lot of the decline that occurred with the mule deer was related to disease and then followed by habitat loss. Now that the ground burned and there is logging taking place again the herds should start to recover.

When herds are recovering one of the worse things to do is to open up the hunting too soon. The other is to keep it locked down too long.

I personally feel the reason the herds are so small compared to 20-30 years ago is because of over hunting of the quality animals when the habitat was shrinking and disease was setting in. I feel if we give it a few more years and let the quality animals (squash tribal and poaching) grow we could start to see decent hunting again. If we open it up too soon it’ll never get back to where it should be.

I'm mildly optimistic as well but the poor quality of the winter ranges is still gonna limit growth. And even if the fire areas in the summer range come back strong, we have to get deer to re-establish in those areas. There's areas that deer haven't moved back into going back to the winter die offs of 96'.

And don't even get me started on hunting pressure

[CarbonHunter]

Keep in mind it’s not just the summer range that burned. The retreat fire last year and the couple of fires around the Wenas feeding station benefited the winter range as well. I’m hopeful for both deer and elk herd growth.

I agree there is lots of areas where the critters need to get reestablished and that is a tricky thing make happen. Just look at areas like the Lolo Idaho.  This is one reason I don’t support opening up the opportunities too early and think we should let it play out a couple more years before we get too anxious about the lack of tags.

[Mtnwalker]

Aren’t those fires on the Wenas winter range gobbling up sage habitat and filling back in with worthless cheat grass? Seems like we are in desperate need of a replanting program on the heels of those fires, as it stands I don’t think there’s much benefit.

[dvolmer]

I just read over the new regs. What a joke.  Worse and worse each year. We are doomed. The Game dept isn't the main problem. Its the liberal anti-hunting Commission. They will be the downfall of this state. Fact it is the liberals that have came to control the state are mostly anti-hunters and especially when it comes to any kind of predator control. It will get nothing but worse. There might be a special permit that gains a tag or two in the future but the general numbers will continue to fall. Its literally came to the point where you start asking yourself is it really worth the money and time to even apply and that is a scary place to be in my opinion.  I saw that Dayton quality permit is now down to one.  That is just one of the many units that have sadly went into the toilet. What a shame and its hard to stomach when you know its not going to get better but worse.  Just watch and see!

[CarbonHunter]

Aren’t those fires on the Wenas winter range gobbling up sage habitat and filling back in with worthless cheat grass? Seems like we are in desperate need of a replanting program on the heels of those fires, as it stands I don’t think there’s much benefit.

There has been some replanting in those areas. Obviously not the entire area but I know they have had some groups out there planting native grasses for better habitat.

[Karl Blanchard]

Aren’t those fires on the Wenas winter range gobbling up sage habitat and filling back in with worthless cheat grass? Seems like we are in desperate need of a replanting program on the heels of those fires, as it stands I don’t think there’s much benefit.

it's a barren waste land.

[teanawayslayer]

Aren’t those fires on the Wenas winter range gobbling up sage habitat and filling back in with worthless cheat grass? Seems like we are in desperate need of a replanting program on the heels of those fires, as it stands I don’t think there’s much benefit.

it's a barren waste land.

it seems like it burns every year and has no chance to rebound. Sad!

[Mtnwalker]

Aren’t those fires on the Wenas winter range gobbling up sage habitat and filling back in with worthless cheat grass? Seems like we are in desperate need of a replanting program on the heels of those fires, as it stands I don’t think there’s much benefit.

it's a barren waste land.

The wintering hill out my living room window sure seems like it is utilized less by the animals since it burned. They still move in on a heavy snow but they are out of there as soon as it subsides. We used to watch elk and deer hang out all winter.

[ganghis]

I'd normally expect fires in winter range sage country to benefit elk at the expense of deer since grasses would presumably regenerate before browse.  But if it's being backfilled with low quality cheat grass, that's maybe another story.  I'm not an expert, but I have to wonder if invasive species like cheat grass are leading to population declines more than predators are in a lot of places.  I knew some people at Colorado Division of Wildlife when I was out there and that was one of their biggest concerns tbh. 

[Karl Blanchard]

I'd normally expect fires in winter range sage country to benefit elk at the expense of deer since grasses would presumably regenerate before browse.  But if it's being backfilled with low quality cheat grass, that's maybe another story.  I'm not an expert, but I have to wonder if invasive species like cheat grass are leading to population declines more than predators are in a lot of places.  I knew some people at Colorado Division of Wildlife when I was out there and that was one of their biggest concerns tbh.

Idaho has really good data on cheat grass encroachment. It's one of the giant elephants in the room in regards to mule deer habitat issues.  You can't plant grass till you're blue in the face but deer need brows on winter range.

[yakimanoob]

Predators are not the leading cause of the Yakima deer herds inability to grow. That's a hill I'll 100% die on. The carrying capacity just isn't there anymore.