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Author Topic: WDFW Deer Herd Management  (Read 8334 times)

Offline colockumelk

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Re: WDFW Deer Herd Management
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2009, 12:44:23 PM »
Don't get me wrong.  I think the commission is good.  It's just the fact that the people on that commission are not.  They are not true sportsman.  How did they get on the commission?  And why are they the ones that are on it, out of all the far more qualified people that hsould be on there. 

The commission doens't know jack about wildlife managment.  At the meeting in Ellensburg their game bios would be explaining something and tell them one thing and give the commission their recommendations, and then the commission would still do the complete opposite.  I feel for the game bios and the game wardens.  Their job must be very tough and frustrating. 
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Offline bearpaw

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Re: WDFW Deer Herd Management
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2009, 12:52:15 PM »
Right now we have a Democratic governor making the appointments, so you are going to see some people on the commission that represent many democratic interests.

I wished all Commission members had to be licensed active hunters and fishermen in order to serve, but it doesn't work that way in our democratic society. Several of the comissioners do hunt so we should figure we are lucky. I beleive only 6% to 10% of WA residents hunt, or something like that. The Commission is supposed to consider management for all citizens.....thus the members who are not hunters.
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Offline turbo

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Re: WDFW Deer Herd Management
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2009, 12:32:36 PM »
Thanks for the interesting read guys. It's ashamed that it all comes down to bureaucracy and not the simple facts of the matter, I hate my state some times.

I think it's very important to stress that the 3 point rule is not working. I'm ashamed to admit that I personally know 4 guys that have mistaken 2 points for 3 points and had to walk away because of the current rules in place. Dumb, I know but it's true.

I heard that in one state (maybe ID???) if you make a mistake like that and admit it you get a $100 fine but get to keep the meat, but more importantly they get to track the numbers better. I hear this is a 3 strikes and your out program. Has anyone heard of this?

I think we can also agree that the Cougar population is out of control since the banned hound hunting. I shot a cougar up in the LT and the GW told me that they eat around 52 deer a year each or 1 a week. WOW!

Thanks again for the information and inspiration to get involved and learn more about these very complex issues.

Offline muleyguy

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Re: WDFW Deer Herd Management
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2009, 05:04:57 PM »
"Not necessarily.  Just because you have a alot of deer doesn't mean you have a healthy or good deer herd.  What is more important than numbers is your buck to doe ratio.  Just because you have a ton of deer doesn't meen that you have a good deer herd.  Many people (including our WDFW) use the deer or elk numbers to represent the health of the herd.  This couldn't be farther from the truth.  It is far more important to have a healthy buck to doe ratio.

Studies have shown that the average mature buck will only breed 5-8 does a year.  This is why game bios and game departments across the nation manage for healthy buck to doe ratios.  Which is 1 buck to 5 or 6 does (1:5-6)  They have shown that if you mange for this good buck to doe ratio your population will actually rebound faster than if you only kill buck and leave the does alone.  This is because if you have a bunch of does that are not being bred because your ratio is say 1:15-20 (much like our state) then you have a bunch of does that are not contributing to the herd and are just sucking up resources.  If a big winter comes along (such as in NE Washington) there are alot less resources to get the deer through the winter and you will have a huge winter kill off.  Also with more deer you have a greater chance of disease."



There is much wrong in the above statement, although it sounds good. 

The first question to ask is what is the carrying capacity of the habitat and winter range in question??  You manage the herd numbers to get to carrying capacity first, and then maintain your proper buck to doe ratio's.  Most of the deer herds in WA state are nowhere near the carrying capacity of their habitat.  Sure, some are, but, the vast majority are not.

Buck to doe ratio's are indeed important, but, you do not get at a good buck to doe ratio by killing excess does, you get to a good ratio by INCREASING buck numbers.  If your buck to doe ratio is poor, you do not kill does to get it into balance.  That is a "trick" by game departments to show good buck to doe ratio's in units.  That has not increased the number of bucks in the field one bit.

This point is one of the biggest misconceptions out there.   If the buck to doe ratio is poor, and, the herd is below the carrying capacity of the habitat, you need to restrict the harvest of bucks to increase the ratio.  You don't kill does to fix it.

There is also the issue of winter kill, once again, you do not set the population objective to the 1 in 10 winter;  you set it at the average winter.  Yes, once in a great while, a bad winter will come and the excess deer will die off.  But, you don't set the population level at the 10% winter event because someday it might happen.  If and when the winter event comes, you restrict the hunting until the population rebounds.

The only time you should kill does is when the population is above the carrying capacity of the habitat or the "average" winter range conditions.  Killing does beyond these conditions is not a biological decision, but, rather a political/financial decision.  Doe hunts are popular with the public and raise money for the department.

in addition to getting the herd at population objectives and getting buck to doe ratio's right, is the issue of age structure within the buck population.  One of the biggest problems in deer herds, especially mule deer herds, is the age structure is all screwed up.  You have a majority of the breeding being done by immature (1.5 and 2.5 yr old) deer.  Good data points to Does that have been breed by mature bucks as having healthier and more twin fawns.  This makes complete biological sense, and, one only has to look at what the WDFW has done with the Yakima elk herd to see how good management can fix the age structure in a population.  One of the primary reason the Yakima elk herd is so strong is because the majority of the breeding is now being done by mature bulls instead of juvenile bulls.

In this state, and in most deer herds in this state, there is no legitimate biological reason for doe hunts, period.  Our herds are under tremendous pressure from predators, cars, cougars, bears, poachers, tribal killing, etc.  The last thing our herds need is sanctioned doe hunts.  There are plenty of does being killed by all these other factors.







Offline Curly

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Re: WDFW Deer Herd Management
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2009, 05:39:34 PM »
Very good post Muleyguy.   :tup:
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Offline Lowedog

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Re: WDFW Deer Herd Management
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2009, 06:51:06 PM »
Nicely put muleyguy!  Another thing to consider about WDFW is that they are working for every citizen in this state not just hunters and fisherman.  There are a lot of other factors involved in managing a game herd other than what type of hunting opportunity exists.


"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal."
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Offline Palmer

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Re: WDFW Deer Herd Management
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2009, 06:09:08 AM »
One person commented on agriculture in the midwest.  In watching many shows on WT hunting, I've seen many groves of white and red oak all over back east.  Many of the trees look over a hundred years old and a few historians speculate that the Indians planted many of these to feed the game. 

I hunt the NE part of Washington and I think the pines do alot to feed the WT but if there were more oak trees planted by the DNR and any other dept.'s within our government then you would probably see a huge surge in the supply of food for deer, turkey, and other game animals.  It seems to me that when the DNR plants trees and vegetation they are thinking of feeding the tweety birds and not the game even though a major part of their budget comes from tax on the ammunition we pay for.

Offline Big10gauge

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Re: WDFW Deer Herd Management
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2009, 07:48:27 AM »
This must be a continuation of this post, I just spent 2.5 weeks on my place in Stevens Co. Plenty of does in the agricultural areas, very few in the woods again this year.

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,14120.msg159423.html#msg159423
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