One less bull in the Tieton Dr. herd...

[Coastal_native]

Except it was probably less then ten percent of the tribes that could give the army trouble. We could of wiped the rest of this earth with out much trouble. not that i would want to or condone it. i'm just saying it was mostly us showing restraint and to be honest quite generous. we could have said this is all ours we will take what we want and you as a conquered nation can have whats left. but we didn't.... now look at what it got us.

Yeah, I think that was poorly worded on my part...90% of the natives were not "killed".  A large percentage inadvertently died of disease, some died in battles, some were slaughtered, etc..

Although, I think most of your post above actually just restated what I was trying to argue against when I addressed question 1.)   The point I was trying to make was that they were not being generous to Natives when they haulted their conquest...they were infact being self serving...I think that's historical fact and not a matter of interpretation?  I could be wrong.

[Coastal_native]

Coastal in regards to your statement:

In most cases our regs/seasons/bag limits are so loose that we are basically hunting unrestricted anyway, and over the course of a few decades no agency can show data that suggests natives are solely responsible for any declines in the game populations or overall heard health.

My local gw, says that the tribal harvests are not reported to the state like the non-tribal hunters have to so that is why there is no data, and their harvest does indeed effect not only total population numbers, but population dynamics and hunting opportunity for everyone else.  I think most people would completely satisfied if natives had to hunt the same seasons as everyone else and report their hunting activity just like everyone else.

Reporting is definately important for all the reasons you stated...if you go to the NWIFC website you can see the member tribes and view historical harvest reports by GMU.  This information is obviously available publicly and is shared with the state.  They are also one of the key players in wildlife mgmt projects that are coops between state/tribes. 

Yeah, my statement wasn't too clear, what I meant is that in all studies that document reported harvest/non reported harvest/poaching...etc, basically anything that would capture a sample of what could be considered tribal harvest...nothing points out that any one factor is solely responsible for a decline in populations...especially natives.  Unless someone shows me otherwise.

[krout81]

RCW 84.34.020
Definitions. 

As used in this chapter, unless a different meaning is required by the context:

     (1) "Open space land" means (a) any land area so designated by an official comprehensive land use plan adopted by any city or county and zoned accordingly, or (b) any land area, the preservation of which in its present use would (i) conserve and enhance natural or scenic resources, or (ii) protect streams or water supply, or (iii) promote conservation of soils, wetlands, beaches or tidal marshes, or (iv) enhance the value to the public of abutting or neighboring parks, forests, wildlife preserves, nature reservations or sanctuaries or other open space, or (v) enhance recreation opportunities, or (vi) preserve historic sites, or (vii) preserve visual quality along highway, road, and street corridors or scenic vistas, or (viii) retain in its natural state tracts of land not less than one acre situated in an urban area and open to public use on such conditions as may be reasonably required by the legislative body granting the open space classification, or (c) any land meeting the definition of farm and agricultural conservation land under subsection ( of this section. As a condition of granting open space classification, the legislative body may not require public access on land classified under (b)(iii) of this subsection for the purpose of promoting conservation of wetlands.




Some interesting reading talks mainly about fishing since there were no elk. 
http://www.nwcouncil.org/history/indiantreaties.asp

[ASHQUACK]

Ah Coastal welcome back to another thread.

The timber company lands are indeed considered claimed. Just ask them when they close the gates at the end of the hunting seasons. The reason they allow the tribes to hunt them is that they are afraid of the costly lawsuits that stem when a tribe feels that their "rights" are being the least bit infringed. Timber companies don't have the unlimited funds to battle in court like the tribes do.

As far as wasting fish where have you been? This happens every year and seems to get worse all the time. I personally came up on a net this year that had rotting salmon in it while it was catching more.

Lets face it guys there is no way that without Coastal and Bigdog stepping up to the plate and telling their tribal members how it "should" be then it isn't going to change. I remember several years ago there were numerous tribal members killing elk down in the margaret unit along with the mud flow. Areas where "whites" could not go without getting arrested. Remember that these areas were not supposed to have any human interference so they could study how things would come back after the eruption. There was a huge stink made and a couple of the news stations covered the pissed off guys making all kinds of statements. But it didn't change then and it's not going to change now.

Coastal, Bigdog step up and help make the needed changes so we can all benefit!

[husky270]

Its really amazing how they shot an elk of that caliber ,actually loaded it and got the hell out of there, without someone on their tail at the time even driving down the road would of been obvious as hell the elk is bigger than the truck. Theres not enough coffee or doughnuts to keep law enforcement from making a bust like that,I think the call was to late,and no bust. Sad but true if you had all that time to watch from the beginning the way you described u should of called from the moment you seen something was up. And i agree with boneaddict,lets keep the racist stuff away.  Plus 2 guys one huge bull not even gutted thats some real man power to load that.

[fishunt247]

As I said in my original post, we called shortly after 8am when they were still "hunting." They shot the bull shortly after 9am, when we called again. Then we called at 9:15 and at 9:30, when we got their license plate. So really, the call couldn't have been made sooner. They must have about a two hour response time.

[Alan K]

Wow I missed all the fireworks on this one. . . Reading a lot of it though makes me want to go on a rampage. . . 

[colockumelk]

Hey Coastal que pasa!  No you are correct on the 90% thing.  Most historians now agree that from the time that the first Spanish venture into North America (I think they made it all the way up from Texas to Oklahoma) in about 1515 to when Lewis and Clark rolled through 300 years later about 70-90% of Native Americans died from a massive plague much like what happened to Europe when the Black Plague hit it.  This wasn't a war it was just a massive plague.  This is why I sometimes get fired up when people try to claim that war killed off the majority of Native American's.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  (Even in the Civil War 2/3 of deaths occured from infection or disease.) 

As for people saying "we should have finished the job" you should be ashamed of yourself.  That is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE THING TO SAY!!!!  When you say things like this you only make yourself sound racist and ignorant and do not contribute or help the debate towards equality.  Instead you only hurt it. 

Now that being said.  Biggdogg I hope some of the things towards cracking down on Tribal Poachers is true.  You climb a mountain one step at a time.  Coastal I think there will always be animosity between the two groups as long as one group has more rights and plays by different rules than the other.  Anytime there is Racial Discrimination one group will always resent the group that is favored in the Discrimination. 

Personally I could care less if tribal hunters can shoot more animals than me.  But it is BS when the rules and regulations are leniant enough that they can be taken advantage of as bad as they currently are over on the East Side of the state. 

Biggdogg I guarantee you there would be far less complaining if the Yakamas had a limit of 1 Bull, 1 Buck and X-amount of does and cows.  If your members need the meat that bad then so be it.  But why kill off all the big bulls and bucks and then flaunt it in front of us.  And you wonder why we get angry.  Your tribe flaunts the ability to harvest as many Big Bulls and Bucks as you want when you know damn well that we have to get drawn to hunt a big bull which happens about every 7-10 years. You want us to like the Yakama tribe change your rules and regulations so they are more ethical and are less likely to be taken advantage of. 

As far as Yaks argument that non-tribal hunters shoot 1,000's of spikes.  This is true but theres also about 50,000 elk hunters in central washington.  I GUARANTEE you that per capita the Yakama tribe has a FAR FAR greater impact on the Colockum and Yakima elk herds than non-tribal members do.  Case in point.  On average it takes a state hunter 7 years to kiill an elk.  So 1 out of 7 years a state hunter kills an elk.  On average a state hunter will kill a branch bull every 20 years.  Now you have Yakamas in the Colockum who kill 4-6 bulls each in that area every year.  This doesn't include how many they kill in each year each in the Yakima herd.  I'm sorry buddy but that argument is comparing apples to oranges.   

[Coastal_native]

Colockum...que pasa?  You've been out of Washington for far too long.  Here's your first lesson...when you're greeting me, you can use a Quinault greeting "Hoyt", maybe not the correct phonetic spelling, but you get the idea .  I hope all your testing is going well...you sure were wining a lot about them

As usual your post is a good one..........................except! the one area where we always respectfully disagree.  The rights that some tribes retained through treaties have nothing to do with racial discrimination.  This is true only because the treaties had nothing to do with race, they were agreements between nations.  There are Natives out there that are descendants of tribes that didn't sign treaties and those Natives don't have the same rights as me when it comes to hunting.  So, it's not as simple as just saying Indians get special rights because they are Indians.  Natives are members of Nations that have different rights than the Nation you are a member of...However, I acknowledge any counter argument that points out the fact that Natives are also US citizens.  That definitely complicates the argument, but my statement above still holds truth.

Thanks for speaking out about the "we should've finished the job" comment...just when I think your only good quality is your ability to use sarcasm, you show me a hint of class

Also,go easy on Bigdogg...he's suppose to be sending me a sample pack of jerky from a colockum bull...if it's good, I might just put in for a tag.  Just Joking...he didn't' say it was a colockum bull.  Once again...poor taste humor on my part

[colockumelk]

Coastal so what you're saying is that my Bow name is actually a Quinnalt greeting.  Cool   As far as me having class sssshhhh! I have a reputation to uphold.  I know well probably never agree on the Discrimination vs Treaty rights issue.  I was just explaining where a major part of the issue between state and tribal hunters lies. 

Que Pasa is German.  It means "Ugly Woman"  I was insulting you.   

[chester]

      thats funny colockum

[Coastal_native]

Coastal so what you're saying is that my Bow name is actually a Quinnalt greeting.  Cool   As far as me having class sssshhhh! I have a reputation to uphold.  I know well probably never agree on the Discrimination vs Treaty rights issue.  I was just explaining where a major part of the issue between state and tribal hunters lies. 

Que Pasa is German.  It means "Ugly Woman"  I was insulting you.   

If that's true...that's pretty funny.  I'd insult you back in Quinault, but we were too peacefull of a culture to have insults..........

Laugh it up Chester...I know what town your from.  There are more than enough "Que Pasa's" where you come from.

[chester]

tell me something i didnt know 

why do you think i moved 

[logger]

Peaceful quinaults huh, I spent some time in the bar, can't remember the name now, but you damn near had to fight your way in and out.I did have a c.a. on a job that worked for the state, I'm pretty sure he was quinault at least he lived there anyway and a nicer guy you will never meet.

[biggdogg]

Coastal sent it out Thursday should be there any day by the way it was a cow and I've never hunted the clockum to much gas for my one ton. Clockum has good points I wish it were easier to get the tribal leaders to understand same crap these guys r doing on the rez is happening off rez but worse. Pretty sad sight today wennt up to our game refuge and seen 3 gut piles I walked down and checked 2 of them out and just as I thought both were bulls I di didn't go to the 3 cause I needed to get my firewood cut pretty sad looks like they were shot right out of their beds