Hunter Education Discussion

[ghosthunter]

50 sets of five fake orange guns equals $75000.00

You could buy 6824 trigger locks .

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=combination+trigger+locks+&view=detail&id=5A9FB0254FF9AE6A1D1A027D5897577040DB1597&first=0&qpvt=combination+trigger+locks+&FORM=IDFRIR

[Outdoor Guardian]

There’s been a lot of discussion on this forum about potential changes to the Hunter Education Program and how they may impact students and volunteers.  I thought it was about time to weigh in.

We all understand the importance of Hunter Education, right? As hunters, we want to be sure there are safe, ethical, and responsible hunters out there sharing the woods with us. And we want to make sure there are future generations of hunters to carry on the tradition that is so important to all of us. I hope that at least we can agree that those are the ultimate goals. And, if so, we should also be able to agree on the same common results that we want achieve through Hunter Education. It’s the “how” that has everyone spinning. And honestly, we are all going to have different opinions about how to achieve the results we’re after, based on our own history, perception, and role in the effort.

A critical component of the program is the volunteer instructor. We have around 900 across the state – that’s a lot of volunteers! They are vital to our ability to teach the number of students we do each year.  These instructors are willing to unselfishly commit their personal time toward this effort because they are passionate about hunting and firearm safety. Some of them have many, many years invested. Some have probably invested their own money as well. We recognize this investment, we really do.

That being said, the Hunter Education Program is here first and foremost to serve the students. And to best serve our students, we must constantly re-evaluate the program to ensure we meet the goals we talked about earlier: creating safe, ethical and responsible hunters and continuing the hunting heritage. But this is where things get a bit sideways. Hunter Education is not, and should not, be perceived as the finishing school for hunters and hunting. We provide a very focused training and learning environment to teach students the basics of firearms safety and hunter education in a short period of time, but the majority of learning usually comes from mentoring and additional field experience long after the class has ended and the student has their certificate in hand.

RCW 77.32.155 states “The director may establish a program for training persons in the safe handling of firearms, conservation, and sportsmanship.” This is not something we have to do, but our Department decided long ago that we would make this a self-imposed mandate. Given the authority to create such a training program, it then becomes our responsibility to manage and cultivate it. This is a great responsibility! As if managing the development of a training curriculum and policies, coordinating volunteer instructors, and ensuring students learn what is necessary to become safe and ethical hunters aren’t enough, we also have to manage the liability that comes with a training environment that includes firearms, volunteers, Department staff, and the public co-mingling in public locations.

So let’s focus on the liability piece for a minute. Once WDFW is given statutory authority to implement a program, we are then ultimately held accountable for all aspects of that program. With Hunter Education, this includes the responsibility to protect our students and volunteer instructors, and ensure a safe environment in which to learn (and teach). And if there was an incident in a classroom – whether an accidental discharge with no injuries, or an accidental discharge that resulted in serious injury or death – it would ultimately be our fault for not preventing such a tragedy. If any of you have been involved in litigation before, you know it can take many, many years, and many, many dollars before there is any resolution. Unfortunately if an incident occurred in a Hunter Education class, the students and volunteer instructors would most likely be dragged into the legal system right along with the Department. None of us want to see that happen. And if that wasn’t enough, there would undoubtedly be a media storm with certain groups calling for an end to Hunter Education altogether. But, it’s not about covering our own butts or protecting our volunteer instructors and students from years of litigation. And it’s not about the controversy that would ensue. Personally, I don’t want to be the one to have to visit a child’s parent or loved one and explain what went wrong, or have to apologize for a horrible tragedy that might have been prevented. The largest concern here is keeping our students and volunteers safe from harm in the first place. And if that means using inert firearms in the classroom to provide the proper level of human and program protection, then by comparison, it is a small price to pay.

Since the use of inert firearms seems to be a hot issue for folks, I’ll address that now. It’s true that we have purchased and begun using inert firearms in some Hunter Education classes.  While they lack a firing pin, they represent the five actions types and are otherwise fully functional: you can load/unload them and work the action and safety.  Yes, they are a bit stiff at first, but so is any new firearm. After a couple class’s worth of students handle them, they’ll be broken in. And I agree that they may be ugly, but handling pretty firearms is not the priority. Safe handling of ANY firearm is the priority. So far our instructors who have used them have provided positive feedback, and don’t think the fact that they are bright orange or without a firing pin diminishes their value in the classroom at all.

That being said, we also realize the value of using different types of firearms to highlight specific points, so we’re working on protocols to continue to allow the use of various firearms and archery equipment in the classroom and during field course activities. These could include firearms issued by the Department, those that have been donated or purchased with donated funds or grant monies, firearms that have been loaned to instructors, or privately owned firearms. In all instances, the firearms would have to be approved by the Department and permanently or temporarily disabled. Other requirements may be necessary dependent on the firearm and how it was obtained. There does need to be some uniformity here……. we have seen some interesting things through the years (I will leave it at that).

Let me be clear: We have no intention of doing away with optional live-fire exercises. However, to limit liability, we are currently discussing the use of only WDFW issued/inventoried firearms during live-fire exercises. We are also considering limiting the firearms that are used for live-fire exercises, regardless of ownership, to the following: .22 rifle, .223 rifle, .243 rifle, 20-gauge shotgun, .177 air rifle, or bow.

Many folks are also concerned about some of the policy changes they’ve heard about, which may or may not be true. Here’s what’s happening: It’s been many years since we conducted a thorough review of our Hunter Education policies. And while our program is successful and has an excellent safety record, we also recognize areas we could improve upon. If you don’t anticipate problems, you will likely be faced with them. And yes, some of the policy changes we’re considering are a result of the actions of a few, but that’s not our only motivation. We’ve thoroughly reviewed Hunter Ed policies from 22 other states and two provinces, and in doing so, we’ve found some very valuable information that could help us improve our Hunter Education program. We’ve also brought together a group of instructors (the Instructor Advisory Committee or IAC) to discuss potential changes, their effect on instructors and students, and how we can make the program better. Let me assure you we’re not just unilaterally making decisions, but seeking input from those who bring years of experience to the table. The policies we plan to review and update first are those that deal with the general use of firearms, accountability and liability issues, instructor conduct and corrective action, and donations and fees. If you have ideas or suggestions, please feel free to contact Sgt. Klein, our new Hunter Education Manager. He is more than willing to listen and eager to hear what folks have to say. He can be reached at Carl.Klein@dfw.wa.gov or 360.902.2426. And yes, he will return your call. Our goal is to post the updated policy manual on the Instructor website in the next couple of weeks. Once posted, we hope that you’ll review it and let us know what you think. If you have comments, concerns, or suggestions, please don’t hesitate to contact us. 

With regard to our online Hunter Education classes…. another hot issue: The online course was developed to address changes in society and make it easier for folks to complete Hunter Education with limited time. Let’s face it – folks are busy! We have single parents trying to work two jobs, go to school, and take care of the kids. And we have kids who are involved in school, sports, and other extracurricular activities. But we still want them to succeed at Hunter Education so that they can get out there and hunt with the rest of us. And let’s not forget the people who take Hunter Education with no intentions of hunting – they just want to learn how to handle a firearm safely! We want to be sure EVERYONE with an interest has the ability to complete Hunter Education, despite their busy schedules. So we developed the online curriculum. Now, this new course was not without its problems in the beginning. We saw a failure rate of nearly 90% and received several complaints from instructors.  To address this we looked at our processes to see what we were doing wrong and how we might fix it.  Since then, we have made significant changes to the online curriculum and have received lots of positive feedback from instructors.  The new Online Skills Evaluation Class is not the preferred delivery method for all students, and we still recommend the traditional course for a more enriching and interactive learning experience, but at least it’s an option for folks that just can’t make it to a traditional class. Let me be clear about this: We have no intention to only offer online hunter education classes.  There will always be a need for traditional classes.

One of the other issues we’ve struggled with is ensuring consistency in our classes across the state. When we looked at Hunter Education courses offered throughout the state, we noticed that some instructors’ classes lasted thirty hours or more, while the requirement is ten hours of instruction on safe handling, safety, conservation, and sportsmanship. Some students were even being told they should take a class from a different instructor because they would not pass a particular instructor’s class.  While we feel instructors should have the flexibility to structure the course in a way that works best for them, we also need to remain somewhat consistent. We understand that it’s impossible to teach a student all there is to know about hunting in ten or even twenty hours. But Hunter Education is meant to be a basic course, designed to introduce the student to firearm safety and hunting with the understanding that there is always more to be learned about both. With this in mind, and with strong support from numerous instructors and the IAC, we are looking to limit Hunter Education course length to twenty hours. 

So there you have it. This is not an “Us vs. Them” issue. We all are working toward the same goals here. But as the managers of this program, we have to consider the students, first and foremost, and ensure their safety and their success in learning the basics of Hunter Education and firearm safety. We have to consider our volunteer instructors, and ensure their safety while teaching, protect them from involvement in legal actions, and also allow them some flexibility in how they teach their classes. We have to consider the Department as a whole, maintain the integrity and success of the Hunter Education program, and consider the liabilities that come with managing a program that involves the handling of firearms by students and instructors. And we also have to consider the public, and those who may encounter our former students while recreating. Our top priority will ALWAYS be safety and trying to prevent the potential for tragedy.

If you ever have concerns about something you hear about the Hunter Education program or WDFW Enforcement as a whole, I would ask that you talk to us directly, get the facts and hear our perspective. One more thing – we truly honor and respect those who volunteer to teach others about Washington’s rich hunting heritage and firearms safety. And we thank you for your service to the Hunter Education Program.

[ghosthunter]

Thank you

[danderson]

Thanks for the clarification

[Bob33]

Thanks OG.  That is a helpful clarification.

I see that your comments have been linked from the WDFW website which is good so others can see them as well (just in case there is even one hunter or instructor left in Washington that doesn't browse this forum )

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/huntered/instructors/files/WDFW_response_to_huntwashcom_blog.pdf

[Oldguy]

I received a post card today announcing that Lt. Anderson has been replaced by Carl Klein as the Hunter Education Manager.

[HORSEPOWER]

Thanks to Outdoor Guardian for the clarifications.
Thanks to Bobby for informing me of this.
And thanks to Ghosthunter for the welcome!

[furiouzgeorge]

  I recently passed Hunters Ed (Ghost Hunter's class) and thought it'd be worth chiming in with an adult student's experience. I'm 28 and have never been exposed to hunting my entire life. It's always been something that I was interested in but took three years of putting it off before I finally took the plunge and signed up for class.

  My experience with hunter's ed was exceptional. I'm not just saying this because GhostHunter can read it. The hands on experience for me at least was an absolute must. I learned things about my fire-arms that I hadn't learned 'playing' with them or taking them to the range. I was taught habits that I don't think any hunter, modern or primitive can do without. I felt that the amount of time the instructors volunteered to the class and gave up from their weekly schedule was a great testament to the amount of responsibility they personally feel toward the future safety of their students and other hunters.

  I have no experience with online hunter education beside my earlier consideration to take it. After taking the live-class I see that there are MANY things I might have missed from an online course. For one, many people ask many diverse questions. Being in a class-room environment creates the opportunity for more questions to get asked that might be considered 'off topic' but very important. I also feel that the 'rules' can be memorized and spit out pretty easily by anyone who's ever been a good test taker. Hands on experience forces a student to develop good handling habits and a broader understanding of hunter safety, humane and ethical hunting as well as respect for habitat and private property. An online course also costs money which I believe may be wasted for the student. If you're not properly equipped for the range evaluation you're very likely to fail. I don't believe anyone can be adequately familiarized with safe gun handling over the internet. I fear that many students will show up to their range evaluation under prepared and may never choose to follow up and take the test again. One of the last things I want to do is discourage future hunters from joining us   out in the field as responsible stewards.

  On the topic of real firearms. I think they're absolutely essential. If a student takes only one thing away from the class it should be a deep respect for their firearm. I believe that delaying handling of real firearms until the student has passed the class and is in the field is a mistake. Ultimately I believe it's the state pushing the dangers of real firearms off onto the student in the field rather than a very controlled and tightly monitored environment with very experienced instructors. I remember range day pretty well (last week) and can recall that I was never unsupervised with a shotgun in my hand. GhostHunter handed me individual shells for each round of targets and gave me explicit instructions on how to handle the firearm regardless of my age.

  Ultimately it's fair to say that incidents do happen. But the point behind hunter's ed is to minimize the occurrence of incidents in the field and I feel that pushing a live fire evaluation out of the program is not a decision that will help that cause. Whether it is or isn't an issue of liability for the state, I'd argue that the real risk is pushed onto the future of hunting in WA. When a student passes a dumbed down version of hunters ed, get's into the field with a license and tag and injures or kills someone it will reflect badly on ALL of us, not just the state of WA.

  As far as direction for hunters ed, I'll defer to Ghosthunter. I've never hunted and have only recently passed his class. I'm excited to progress into the field with the full confidence that I have handled each type of firearm (and action) and am very familiar with them. I feel capable, equipped and in Ghosthunter and the other instructor's debt for the wisdom they have passed on to me.

  I hope this helps.

Sincerely,

James

 
 

[ghosthunter]

I do like the omega locks for hand guns.
 
I am not sure about them for Long gun practice because they would not allow loading and unloading.
I think the trigger locks are better because we can still cycle the the action.

True it could be dropped. But to get one to go off would have to be a complete melt down of protocol.

A student would have to bring a shell.
They would have to get it in the correct gun without the instructor seeing them.
And than the gun would have to be dropped.

None of the above has ever happen once in my classes in 17 years. Let alone all three.

[danderson]

  Is anyone else having problems logging into the instructor website,  the Draft Policy Manual for upcoming changes is posted there, but apparently its not working.

[Bob33]

None here.  I can access the instructor web page and the draft policy.

[danderson]

pm sent

[ghosthunter]

At IST in Yakima. We are in trouble now . Agenda lists
Ground rules
And How to Cope with Change.

[HORSEPOWER]

Maybe they were just testing us with that fire drill..... Or maybe we are really that rowdy!

[Oldguy]

Was the class on "Coping with change" before or after the fire-alarm?