Knight Bighorn sites

[shorthair15]

call bobs sporting goods in longview they have a lot of bullets in stock for muzzleloaders they have knight bloodline in 275 grain and a few others for the 50 caliber a good supply for sure. I frequent the store often as it is my home town sporting goods store. they will ship out items as well.

[HntnFsh]

call bobs sporting goods in longview they have a lot of bullets in stock for muzzleloaders they have knight bloodline in 275 grain and a few others for the 50 caliber a good supply for sure. I frequent the store often as it is my home town sporting goods store. they will ship out items as well.

Yep,was in there today. They had bloodlines in stock

[danderson]

  I finally broke down and just ordered a bunch from Knight  manufacturing co. well heath placed an order and I doubled up to save on shipping, its the best way to get ammunition when the closest store that carries the bloodlines  is at least  80 miles away, plus I ordered the Williams adjustable peep site so hopefully with-in the next few weeks I will be able  to zero her in.

[danderson]

Well I finally got the Williams peep sight attached to my rifle, picked up a batch of the Bloodlines in 300 grain some triple 7 powder, magnum caps, bore butter, and headed to the hills to sight in, using a bench rest and starting at 25 yards started out low and after  adjusting the site shot a decent group so moved out to 50 yards and pretty much shot in the same spot, moved out to 100 yards and here's were the  problem stars, the group is still not were I would expect it to be,  mabe I'm being a little picky but  with a bench rest and after shooting roughly 12 times am beginning to wonder if this is the best I can expect out of the rifle, I purchased it used and am beginning to wonder if its a lemon.

[Sabotloader]

danderson

I have a couple of thoughts/questions I might share with you...

Well I finally got the Williams peep sight attached to my rifle, picked up a batch of the Bloodlines in 300 grain some triple 7 powder, magnum caps, bore butter, and headed to the hills to sight in,

The 300 grain Bloodline are normally a very a very good flying bullet, so I would certainly agree with the choice of projectiles.  My next assumption is that you are using the Red sabots provided with the bullet.

Powder and caps are exactly what I might use, but I am questioning what you might use Bore Butter for while shooting? If you might be using it in the bore or on the sabot that might be one of your problems especially at 100 yards.

using a bench rest and starting at 25 yards started out low and after  adjusting the site shot a decent group so moved out to 50 yards and pretty much shot in the same spot, moved out to 100 yards and here's were the  problem starts, the group is still not were I would expect it to be, maybe I'm being a little picky

Your 25 yard group and even the 50 show a lot of promise and I agree, I would not be happy with the 100 yard group either.

but  with a bench rest and after shooting roughly 12 times am beginning to wonder if this is the best I can expect out of the rifle, I purchased it used and am beginning to wonder if its a lemon.

I really think you should expect more (better results) at 100 and beyond.... So here goes my questions...

What powder charge were you using? I have found it best to shoot the heavier and longer Bloodlines with a decent kick in the rear to keep them on track and to provide enough velocity for them to fight the external elements.

When you were shooting what was the outside temperature?  A warm temp and a warm barrel can really be a problem on polymer sabots causing them to loose their grip on the bore.

There also could be a barrel to stock problem that might explain the 100 yard shots, but I am thinking since the 25 yard shots are so decent this may not be an issue.

For me, right now, I am thinking some of it or most of it might come down to the use of BB and/or how it was used.  Sabots are self lubricating and should not need an application of BB.  If you might be putting some in the bore between shots that that again could easily be causing your problem as the sabot will not be able to grip the bore and never get the rotational speed that it should.

If you are not shooting full bore lead conicals - I would really advise not using BB at all.  If you have used it in your bore and you are going to shoot sabots you really need to get it out of the barrel before shooting.  The worst part is that BB leaches into the pores of the bore and really does take a good boiling water cleaning to get it out.  BB is/can be a good product in combination with conicals.

Just some thoughts from the peanut gallery... Let me know what you think

mike

[danderson]

  Thanks for the help Mike, I am shooting 100 grains of the T7  using the red sabots provided,
I mentioned the bore butter because I was told that it helps reduce fouling between shots, Knowing that the first shot may not be the most accurate I discounted my first shot after cleaning and managed to get roughly 6 shots before I had to clean the barrel again, the temperature was in the mid 60s, another reason that I mentioned the BB is that when loading the muzzeloader its very hard to get the bullet started in the muzzel in the first 4 or so inches and putting a very small amount of BB on the sabot relieves that somewhat, then the bullet seats down the rest of the way easily, I am a little concerned that its seems to be tight at first then easy to seat the bullet. I have sanded the interior of the stock so that the barrel isn't sticking in there anymore when removed, but cannot slide a dollar bill through after there put back together, there is still some free play between the barrel and stock so I don't think sticking is an issue. The only thing I haven't tryed yet is giving it a good old fashioned boiling water clean up I been using the water soluble stuff recommended by others. Another thing I haven't tryed is increasing the powder load to 110 grains to see if that makes a difference.

[dawhunt]

Quit using bore butter !!! you don't need it if its to hard to load the red sabot get a differant sabot from Knight they have an easy load sabot.

bob

[Sabotloader]

Quit using bore butter !!! you don't need it if its to hard to load the red sabot get a differant sabot from Knight they have an easy load sabot.

bob

The EZ load sabot is for a .451/.452 bullet Danderson is shooting a .458, which still might work but I do not know that it would loosen anything up.

[Sabotloader]

  Thanks for the help Mike, I am shooting 100 grains of the T7  using the red sabots provided,

OK - thanks for the info..

I mentioned the bore butter because I was told that it helps reduce fouling between shots,

And it can do just what you mentioned especially with conicals, and even the older plastic sabots but it needs to applied correctly to a hot barrel then the excess dry patched out.  I use it still today in my trap chokes to help reduce plastic fouling.  But, with todays new formulation of Polymer it really is not necessary.  One of the things you could do to help reduce fouling - do not use a bore with Teflon in it.  Teflon burns and creates a sticky, but somewhat slick substance.  If possible find a bore that is synthetic like Western Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner, Eezox Gun Oil, or Slip 2000 gun oil.  These synthetic oils do not attract the fouling like a regular petroleum oil.

Knowing that the first shot may not be the most accurate I discounted my first shot after cleaning and managed to get roughly 6 shots before I had to clean the barrel again, the temperature was in the mid 60s,

After the six shots when you ran the patch down where was the resistance the tightest?  Still at the muzzle end of the barrel or at the breech end?

Suggestion make yourself a small number of Windex (regular blue Windex with ammonia) patches and for awhile start running one of these patches after each shot.  It will take awhile to clean the BB out of the bore and the pores of the bore.

This is the way I make mine - especially when shooting T7 with shotgun primers.

another reason that I mentioned the BB is that when loading the muzzeloader its very hard to get the bullet started in the muzzel in the first 4 or so inches and putting a very small amount of BB on the sabot relieves that somewhat, then the bullet seats down the rest of the way easily,

You may very well have a build up of fouling in that first 4-6" at the top of the barrel.  That area of the barrel cools faster than other portions of the barrel and with the use of BB on the sabot most of it will be rubbed off of the sabot in that first 4-6" of the barrel.  Probably should not say this but instead of using BB I often just roll the outside of the sabot on my tongue to light moisten the sabot.  Do not get any moisture in the powder cup though.  The saliva acts as a lubricant to get it through the crown of the barrel.

I am a little concerned that its seems to be tight at first then easy to seat the bullet.

I would bet it is a build up fouling caught behind the lands in the barrel and even into the grooves on the top of the barrel.  Really sounds like an aggressive cleaning is needed.  You can do it the old fashioned hot water and soap, a degreasing soap like Zep Orange Citrus Degreaser or another such product.  ZEP is available at Home Depot



When you are done cleaning with the hot water and soap rinse the bore with boiling water - that will just flake the plastic and fouling off the bore.

Another way to tackle it might be by using JB's Bore Cleaning compound.  This is a commercial video of the use of JB's

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=13084/guntechdetail/Using_JB_Bore_Paste_and_Kroil_with_the_VFG_Bore_Pellets

This is a little overboard for me but really does work - I simply use the JB's on a lightly oiled patch and on the end of my loading cleaning jag. It should be a tight fit.  It will turn your bore black and you will have to do a good cleaning job when you are done.  I think I have my routine written up here some place.  If I find it I will put it in...

Found an answer that I wrote to a guy...


sabotloader - OzarkPA Howdy SL -
When you ran your JB paste in your bore - did you just oil a patch and coat with paste and run it with your jag?
 
Thanks,
Geoff
 
Yes, you might have to double your patch to get a tight fit. But I ran an oiled patch with JB's smeared on the sides...ran that side 25 strokes top to bottom (important) then flip the patch over and run another 25 strokes. Did this 4 times then clean up the bore and see what you might have accomplished... On my Triumph I think I ran this operation twice.
 
Hope this helps
 
mike

I have sanded the interior of the stock so that the barrel isn't sticking in there anymore when removed, but cannot slide a dollar bill through after there put back together, there is still some free play between the barrel and stock so I don't think sticking is an issue.

That sounds pretty good to me... but still might be an issue - especially if you have the front rest far out on the forearm when shooting on the bench.  Try to move the front rest as far back as you can - maybe just ahead of the lug screw.  The rest could be pushing the stock against the bore causing it to move just a tiny bit.

The only thing I haven't tryed yet is giving it a good old fashioned boiling water clean up I been using the water soluble stuff recommended by others. Another thing I haven't tryed is increasing the powder load to 110 grains to see if that makes a difference.

I am not sure moving the load up will help right now.  I think I would work on the bore and than also make sure the front rest is back on the stock...

Hope this is not confusing the issue - but I really believe you have a good rifle and it just might need some tender loving care right now....

Oh see if you can find some Birchwood Casey 2 in 1 Bore Scrubber (liquid in a bottle)



If you find it let me know - I will pass on a little cleaning tip using it ...

mike

[scottcrb]

mike you are amazing in your knowledge of Muzzle loaders i am following this thread , thanks for the help with mine too. still waiting for powder and bullets before i hit the range. hopefully after this weekend.