problems with FF powder in a side hamer gun.

[Squidward]

Hello I have been hunting and shooting a BP rifle since 1986 and have never had my rifle not go off without knowing why. I have a TC Hawken 50 cal.  One time was a loose nipple and water got in along side of it causing the powder to burn like a fuse until it went off, after hunting in the rain (glad I could hear it hissing). The other time my stock had a hair line crack and it would take two hits for it to go off, so I replaced the stock, fixed it.  I have always hunted with fff Goex, this yr I got some ff due to fff not available at the location I purchase from. The FF has worked flawlessly at the shooting bench and we shoot one weekend every month form Jan-Aug. However, this yr in our early elk season. I had my rifle fail to go off 3 times, one time costing me a nice bull  . When I took the nipple off to add some powder, I noticed there was no powder under the nipple, in the pan. the next time I loaded my rifle I took the nipple off to look, and there was powder under the nipple. after packing the rifle out hunting, another look under the nipple shows no powder. I looks to me like the larger grain powder it working its way out of the pan and plugging up while packing the rifle around. I loaded up with FFF for the last day of season and used it to tag out. My question I guess is has anyone else found this to be the case in your rifle or could this be some of your miss fires as well? Thank you for taking the time. Squidward

[Sabotloader]

Hello I have been hunting and shooting a BP rifle since 1986 and have never had my rifle not go off without knowing why. I have a TC Hawken 50 cal.  One time was a loose nipple and water got in along side of it causing the powder to burn like a fuse until it went off, after hunting in the rain (glad I could hear it hissing). The other time my stock had a hair line crack and it would take two hits for it to go off, so I replaced the stock, fixed it.  I have always hunted with fff Goex, this yr I got some ff due to fff not available at the location I purchase from. The FF has worked flawlessly at the shooting bench and we shoot one weekend every month form Jan-Aug. However, this yr in our early elk season. I had my rifle fail to go off 3 times, one time costing me a nice bull  . When I took the nipple off to add some powder, I noticed there was no powder under the nipple, in the pan. the next time I loaded my rifle I took the nipple off to look, and there was powder under the nipple. after packing the rifle out hunting, another look under the nipple shows no powder. I looks to me like the larger grain powder it working its way out of the pan and plugging up while packing the rifle around. I loaded up with FFF for the last day of season and used it to tag out. My question I guess is has anyone else found this to be the case in your rifle or could this be some of your miss fires as well? Thank you for taking the time. Squidward

I am somewhat confused because you use the statement "the pan" and you mention "nipple'... I am sure you are talking about a percussion rifle not a flint lock.  Son in that I can share a couple of thoughts....

NORMALLY, in a percussion side hammer 2F should work just fine IF!

Let me ask this does your TC have a small clean out screw on the under the nipple on the side of the breech plug?  If it does can it be removed?  If it doesn't or can not be removed then you will have to work from the nipple hole.

What I am working at I am wondering if the powder has a clear path from the end of the barrel into the breech plug and out to the nipple.  I am not sure how you might clean your rifle but often the breech plug can get ignored.  It has been so long since I did a lot of sidehammer work I can not remember the nomenclature any longer, but there use to be an attachement that you could put on the end of your ram rod and scrape the cavity in the breech plug to get residue carbon out.

Another thing I would often do is pump water (hot soapy) in and out and through the BP to clean the channel from the nipple to the powder.  Also you might be able to use a pipe cleaner utensil to push in and through the channel under the nipple

http://cva.com/CVA-Store-View.php?id=140

One thing I always did with a hunting load is drop 10 or so grains into the muzzle and then tap the side opposite if the hammer to force powder out and under the nipple - then complete the loading of the powder and again tap the side of the rifle to make sure the powder was completely settled.

One last thought... If you are using Musket Caps and you bought them recently - they have be changed or CCI has changed theirs to be less powerful for the re-enactment groups.  The German cap RWS 1081's remain full power.

If you are using #11 caps like I di or did I would suggest #11 Magnum caps or again the German RWS 1075+ cap.

Hope some of this gives you a solution...

mike 

[Squidward]

Thank you for the reply Sabotloader, I do have a nipple gun and use CCI # 11. I said pan, because I don't know what else to call it. sorry for any confusion.
I clean my rifle barrel off in a bucket of hot soapy water. however one thing I noticed after a snapped cap was no powder visable under the nipple. So the next time I loaded my rifle, I took the nipple back off to look before going out in the brush again, and it was full of powder. only after hitting the brush doing some more walking around. the rifle never went off. I took the nipple off again. This time (same load mentioned above) there was no powder visible under the nipple. The only thing I can think of is that the course powder is working its way back toward the barrel and then jams were it necks down.
I do know if I ever have to hunt with FF, I'll smash some of it into fines.

[Sabotloader]

Thank you for the reply Sabotloader, I do have a nipple gun and use CCI # 11. I said pan, because I don't know what else to call it. sorry for any confusion.
I clean my rifle barrel off in a bucket of hot soapy water. however one thing I noticed after a snapped cap was no powder visable under the nipple. So the next time I loaded my rifle, I took the nipple back off to look before going out in the brush again, and it was full of powder. only after hitting the brush doing some more walking around. the rifle never went off. I took the nipple off again. This time (same load mentioned above) there was no powder visible under the nipple. The only thing I can think of is that the course powder is working its way back toward the barrel and then jams were it necks down.
I do know if I ever have to hunt with FF, I'll smash some of it into fines.

I am not sure that I would do that - it really could change the pressure it can/will create.... And I can not remember for sure but isn't real BP ignited with pressure also? I do not remember

It really sounds to me that when you cap goes off you are either pushing the powder under the nipple back into the breech or you burning that small amount of powder and it is not igniting the main load....

So now I am worried about your powder period!

Can you find a bottle of T7-3f? I realize that you are probably a Black Powder guy but I use the 3f T7 in my sidelocks and really do like... Also if you can switch to #11 Mag caps - regular #11's are now loaded down to re-enactment pressures also.

 

[Squidward]

Sabotloader:

Thank you for the concern, I do not plan on hitting any powder with a hammer or any other clubs. I don't really want to blow my self up.
As far as worried about my powder. what concerns do you have? this is the same powder, I have been using at the range with absolutely no problems brand new plastic can(I don't really like the plastic). The only thing I can see different is packing the rifle around jogging the powder around inside the breech. I don't think the cap is pushing the powder back without igniting it, but I'm not sure. Caps are CCI and I can't really tell you if they are reg or mag caps this go around.
I have got me a pound of FFF BP for hunting now and will not go back to FF for hunting.

[floatinghat]

Why not try loading the gun and then checking if there is any powder in the "pan". I load my caplock slowly and lay it over to the side tap a couple times and then finish the loading process, I have never had a problem with FF or FFF. 

Tangent, I think FFF cleans up easier which makes me lean that way.  I am thinking I am going with T7 FFF in .45, .50 and .52.  I have wondered about pressure in the .52 but  I am keeping loads in the 110gr max with 350 to 375gr bullets and 90gr with 500gr.  Looking at Knight suggested loads they recommended the hydrocon 530gr with up to 150gr of FF ( must kick like a mule).

[Squidward]

Why not try loading the gun and then checking if there is any powder in the "pan". I load my caplock slowly and lay it over to the side tap a couple times and then finish the loading process, I have never had a problem with FF or FFF. 

Tangent, I think FFF cleans up easier which makes me lean that way.  I am thinking I am going with T7 FFF in .45, .50 and .52.  I have wondered about pressure in the .52 but  I am keeping loads in the 110gr max with 350 to 375gr bullets and 90gr with 500gr.  Looking at Knight suggested loads they recommended the hydrocon 530gr with up to 150gr of FF ( must kick like a mule).

Hello Floatinghat: I have done this very thing. after loading I took the nipple off to see that there was in fact powder under the nipple. only to have it gone after packing the rifle around in the brush for a while.
I'm going to stick with GOEX FFF  and my 370gr Maxi Ball for now, as this has not ever given me any troubles.

[GoexBlackhorn]

You should switch to CCI Magnum #11 caps or RWS Dynamit Nobel 1075s.
You can also pack a few grains in the nipple hole, then screw-on the nipple. It's called priming the nipple manually. Do it after loading powder and bullet.

[wadu1]

I have never had a problem with RWS caps, one misfire with CCI on a big bull. I also changed my nipple to a Uncle Mike's hot shot and only use RWS caps.

[Sabotloader]

Hello Floatinghat: I have done this very thing. after loading I took the nipple off to see that there was in fact powder under the nipple. only to have it gone after packing the rifle around in the brush for a while.
I'm going to stick with GOEX FFF  and my 370gr Maxi Ball for now, as this has not ever given me any troubles.

OK so I am still really curious about this whole thing especially when you - I think indicated at the range every thing went boom just fine...

So here is my next thought... is there any chance that while you are hunting that the projectile could move off the powder some given distance?  If that happen that really could explain the disappearance of powder from under the nipple.

Just throwing that out there....

[Squidward]

Hello Floatinghat: I have done this very thing. after loading I took the nipple off to see that there was in fact powder under the nipple. only to have it gone after packing the rifle around in the brush for a while.
I'm going to stick with GOEX FFF  and my 370gr Maxi Ball for now, as this has not ever given me any troubles.

OK so I am still really curious about this whole thing especially when you - I think indicated at the range every thing went boom just fine...

So here is my next thought... is there any chance that while you are hunting that the projectile could move off the powder some given distance?  If that happen that really could explain the disappearance of powder from under the nipple.

Just throwing that out there....

I do not believe the bullet is moving, however I can't not answer that with a positive answer as I have not checked but my bullets go down easy in my rifle and have always, I can load it up bang it around a bit and see if my bullet moves. I'm still thinking its the powder. nothing else has changed. all I know for sure is that I do not like my rifle not going off when I want it too. As soon as I get time (hunting season) I will take it out and shoot it beat it around and try it again. Thank you guys for the suggestions and input. Keep the ideas coming. Thank you again. Squidward

[floatinghat]

So here is my next thought... is there any chance that while you are hunting that the projectile could move off the powder some given distance?  If that happen that really could explain the disappearance of powder from under the nipple.

That is an interesting thought, it's been a concern of mine as I look at slip fit conicals for my inlines, not an ignition concern but a safety one.  When I get time I am going to play with PP.  It might just be piece of mind but a big piece is the level of confidence in your tools and skills.

[Sabotloader]

So here is my next thought... is there any chance that while you are hunting that the projectile could move off the powder some given distance?  If that happen that really could explain the disappearance of powder from under the nipple.

That is an interesting thought, it's been a concern of mine as I look at slip fit conicals for my inlines, not an ignition concern but a safety one.  When I get time I am going to play with PP.  It might just be piece of mind but a big piece is the level of confidence in your tools and skills.

Well the reason I mentioned it was because of the disappearing powder from under the nipple.  Then he did mention it was easy to load the projectile so slip would concern me.  Lead is heavy and dense as it is so it is not inconceivable that it could move down the bore some in a days worth of hunting.  Especially sense a bore in a ML is not totally the same diameter all the way down the bore...

[wadu1]

I'm old school, I shoot two Thompson side-locks a 50 and a 54.  I was taught to mark the ramrod when you have a good charge in the barrel. I also carry a tube of "White Out" to touchup the front site and a bottle of fingernail polish to seal the cap in bad weather. Another tip I learned is to seal your cast and lubed lead bullets with saran wrap. This does two things it makes the bullet a little tighter in the bore and seals the lube so it will not contaminate the powder in warm weather and keeps moisture out.