Citori Feather Question

[jetjockey]

This is a good read for shotgunners.  It explains choke and killing patterns.  Those 50+ yard shots have a very small killing pattern.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/longgun_reviews_st_headintheclouds_201002/99884#

[thinkingman]

 is nearly, or the exact same gun at half the cost..

https://www.browning.com/support/frequently-asked-questions/firearms-manufactured.html
[/quote]
Miroku doesn't catalog a lightweight (alloy) frame in the US.
There was one available in Europe, MK60.
The fit of a Miroku is definitely different than a Citori.
Other than that, you're right.

[Gopackers]

We've (Wife and I) got both 12ga and 20ga in the Citori 525 Feather, and the Citori 725 Field (Two foot itess). About a pound difference is all, but I use the 12ga 725 way more often for hunting grouse, pheasant, and quail as the lengthened forcing cones on that version give me much better patterns than the 525 in 1 1/2 ounce 3" # 6's at 40 yards. She really likes her 525 Feather as its easier for her to carry around out in the field, and she doesn't shoot a whole lot of hunting shells thru it. You might want to try the 20ga 725 Field as there's a wide range of 3" loads now on the market that perform like 12ga 2 3/4 loads.

[GoBeavs85]

This is a good read for shotgunners.  It explains choke and killing patterns.  Those 50+ yard shots have a very small killing pattern.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/longgun_reviews_st_headintheclouds_201002/99884#

Wow learned a ton. Thank you for sharing!


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[jetjockey]

When I got my first O/U I messed with chokes all the time. I would shoot SK/IC for quail, and IC/Mod for bigger birds like pheasants.  Then I got lazy a couple times after pheasant hunts, and left the IC/Mod chokes in for quail. I quickly learned there wasn’t much difference, and I could even argue that the IC/Mod combo was better for quail as well. Now, I don’t screw with my chokes in my doubles,  and my single barrel guns all use Mod chokes.  Here’s the deal though, and here’s why I LOVE double guns.  Let’s say a bird gets up close, I don’t have to wait using a double because the speed at which my IC pattern opens.  And instead of waiting with close shots, I purposely try and keep the “core” pattern off the bird so I don’t destroy it, and believe it or not, it’s pretty easy to do at close range.  However, just because a bird rises at 35-40 yards doesn’t mean I will skip my IC barrel and go right to Mod, because like the article says, IC still has a 15” killing pattern a LONG way out, so it is well worth making the shot IMO.  I can tell you I’ve killed a lot of pheasants with IC in the 40-45 yard range because if that core pattern.......Now, let’s get back to magnum loads.  I believe it was Tom Rooster who studied pheasant kills and BB count.  If I remember correctly, the average dead pheasant in his study had 5 BB’s in it. That’s not a lot of BB’s.  Using Heavy Shot as an example, 1.5oz of Heavy Shot #4’s has 161 bb’s in it, and 1.25 oz has 134, for a difference if only 27 bb’s. The 3” heavy shot loads also have 25fps more velocity as well, but that is negligible.  27 bb’s and 25 FPS is not going to make any real world difference when killing upland birds, especially when you spread those 27bb’s out over a 30” pattern, which equals about 1 more BB per square inch, not including flyers which lowers that number even more. At the end of the day, that just isn’t enough to make any real world meaningful difference. Here’s a couple good articles to read.  The first is about shot size, velocity, etc.  The second is an article written about driven pheasant hunting, and what that author feels are some of the best choices in guns and ammo.  Notice that he suggests 32gram loads, which are slightly lighter than our 1 1/4oz loads.   These are guys who are shooting regularly at 50+ yards.


http://shotshell.drundel.com/pelletcount.htm

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/reviews/shotgun/best-guns-for-high-pheasant-shooting

[jetjockey]

 Btw.  I didn’t mean to completely throw this thread off track. I just have a thing for shotguns, dogs, and wing shooting.  When I bought my 1923 LC Smith 20 gauge with 2 1/2” chambers that needed low pressure shells to keep from beating the stock up too much, I was sure that I’d need to open it it to 2 3/4 just to have a fighting chance at killing birds.  I thought there would be no way 7/8oz of #5’s at 1125fps would be enough to whack pheasants.   Boy was I wrong. That thing is a hammer on pheasants. My guess is because I shoot it really well and that core 15” pattern gets put on the birds at 45+ yards.   Being able to shoot is so much more important than magnum loads and ultra high velocity shells that the shell manufactures market as the end all be all for upland shooting.  If people actually knew that those shells don’t do much, they wouldn’t be willing to spend $15-$20 a box when $10 boxes do just as well.

[Henrydog]

I thought there would be no way 7/8oz of #5’s at 1125fps would be enough to whack pheasants.   Boy was I wrong. That thing is a hammer on pheasants.

Jet you are 100% correct.  I shoot competitive trap...and not being arrogant better then most.  I have shot over 15k shells this year and I reload 1k a month.  Shotguns are a majority of my waking hours besides work.

Most people do not understand patterns or chokes.  Most hunters (reading rifle ballistics) think faster is better.  It does vary gun to gun but in most cases speed actually causes to deform the pattern.   The pattern will have huge "holes" or gaps in it.  You think you center punched it but the bird keeps going.

Your experience is exactly correct.  A moderate speed lower pressure shell in a o/u or sxs is absolutely devastating.  A lot of speed in modern shells is due to steel shot being lighter and to also operate gas guns. 

Pattern your gun with a wide variety of shells.  You will be very surprised by the results

[jetjockey]

To add to what Henrydog said, here’s an article from Tom rooster that explains it well.  Tom Rooster is pretty much the smartest man in the world in regards to shotgun ballistics and lethality.

https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/does-speed-kill.html

[Bill W]

For my lead loads all I reload to is 1200 and (maybe based on the recipe) a tad more.  1200 fps-ish is good enough for any upland.

[Henrydog]

For my lead loads all I reload to is 1200 and (maybe based on the recipe) a tad more.  1200 fps-ish is good enough for any upland.

100% correct.  That is all I shoot, and all I load. I shoot mainly Browning's (3 bt99's, Xt, CX, 2 BPS, and a superposed)  2 things I can say with the conviction of the gospel, Browning Chokes are looser than advertised, and every single one of them patterns a 1200fps load the best.

[tlbradford]

To add to what Henrydog said, here’s an article from Tom rooster that explains it well.  Tom Rooster is pretty much the smartest man in the world in regards to shotgun ballistics and lethality.

https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/does-speed-kill.html

This is a great article.  Thank you for sharing.  To clarify my earlier statement, I was not arguing for magnum loads, just merely stating that a higher velocity bb will penetrate and hit harder than a lower velocity.  Personally, I hunt with 20 gauge 1 oz #6 and have no problems with going away or crossing shots on late season pheasants up to 50 yards.  For all other upland I am shooting 7-1/2 or 8's in the cheap Winchester target loads, low base.  This is out of a 1967 Beretta Golden Snipe.  I never have looked at the barrel chokes, but I would venture to guess they are Improved and Modified.  I will look tonight and let you know.

[wildweeds]

I've shot a 20 at roosters with pointing dogs for 21 years, and with springers 3 years prior to the pointing dog phase. 2 3/4 shells in 4,5,6 shot copper plated going 1350 fps. I personally go with what works , for me it's federal premiums, I tried the fiocci golden pheasant nickel plated 5s last week, not impressed, I ran to a Runnings store and got a box of federals and was back to normal. The bad part about western washington is the available merchandise at stores. Finding good lead shells is tough. I stocked up in North Dakota bought 4 boxes of my federals on sale for 13 bucks a box. The Runnings stores are quite well stocked.