What will it take (a wolf thing)

[KFhunter]

You really should let the NE part of WA be the 'proverbial canary in the gold mine', as these wolves here are the very same wolves that you have there. 

   but your areas are only just getting started, you have a lot more elk than here in the NE so it'll take a while, eventually you'll have even more wolves than we do. 

[KFhunter]

SSS isnt enough... You have to kill 50-70% of wolves in order to MAINTAIN pack size until game numbers drop to the point of equilibrium.

Are you involved in a sportsmens club? Do you belong to a Conservation Group? Do they have representation that petitions the state for hunters? Are they working with a coalition of other sportsmen IN THIS STATE?  All SCI Wa State Chapters, Inland Northwest Wildlife council, Kittitas feild and stream Club, Tacoma sportsmen club, Washington state Archery Association, Washington Waterfowl Association, Washington state Trappers association, some chapters of the MDF Are working together. Do you belong to one of these organizations? Do you belong to an organization that does not collaborate?

If your goal is to ride this to the bottom i guess you can sit on the side lines. If not you should at a min join and add your name to a group that petitions the state on sportsmen behalf.

SSS isn't enough, coyote hunting rules 365 day open season won't be enough.  Wolves are hard to kill, the only thing hunting them like coyotes is going to do is make them even harder to kill and move them from people areas which is a good thing and also provide some relief for deer/elk.  Which is what we see in Yellowstone with Elk being so near people.

[Karl Blanchard]

You really should let the NE part of WA be the 'proverbial canary in the gold mine', as these wolves here are the very same wolves that you have there. 

   but your areas are only just getting started, you have a lot more elk than here in the NE so it'll take a while, eventually you'll have even more wolves than we do.

I know so much of this is hypothetical because it's hard do you have solid numbers on anything but I'd be willing to bet the lack of logging a lot more to do with lower numbers than the wolves.  You are absolutely correct that my area will see an increase in wolves. But that just further proves my point the diminishing ungulate populations in my area is not due to wolves and it is due to man and mismanagement.
 Mismanagement also includes the endless list of convoluted crap involving wolves in this state.

Wyoming has farmer wolves and we do and they also do not hunt them but they have more elk in that state than ever before. They also have roughly all of the grizzly bears! So if wolves are the Devil Himself, how can this be true?

I've hunted Idaho every single season since 2002 in 17 different gmu's.  In that time and in my observations the wolf had a great impact initially but as we have generations of deer and Elk that have grown up with Wolves is far less of an impact numbers are rebounding greatly. I watched a herd of 70 Oak this year within a thousand yards of a Howling Wolf Pack and they hardly lifted their heads. They just went about their evening like they weren't even there. Mother nature will balance things out but we need to better manage our end.  And yes that includes shooting wolves. Aggressively.  I follow a lot of these wolf dreads but I don't ever comment for this exact reason. Arguing with wolf haters is the exact same as arguing with wolf lovers. It's pure emotion most of the time It's very hard to have a civil conversation where we deal in facts and not just emotions.   if a person even questions some of the things stated then they are immediately labeled a wolf lover and a liberal tree hugger. People create Facebook groups dedicated to hating an animal for doing nothing more than being an animal. We want to play God and we put animals in some sort of hierarchy were one is worth more than the other. A living breathing thing is a living breathing thing unless......unless it's a rattlesnake! Rattlenakes really are the devil

[ctwiggs1]

I'll be completely honest:  I am losing steam in my anti-wolf rant train.

There is no doubt that if any part of WA has been impacted by wolves, it's the NE Corner.

And yet...
 -We still see "any buck" seasons for rifle up there, and "any deer" for ML and archery.
 -We still see "any bull" seasons for rifle up there, and "any elk" for ML and archery.
 -I have been killing a boatload of turkeys for the last several years up there, and they just opened up more areas this year to FOUR fall tags.

Is hunting up there different than it was 15 years ago?  Sure thing.  And it'll be even more different in 15 years from now due to wolves, bears, cougars, HUMANS, fires, etc. 

I've read numerous articles from bios stating that wolves tend to cause a ~10 year upset.  Massive change in animal numbers and patterns at first, but over 10 years things tend to normalize as ecosystem fixes itself.

I feel for the ranchers, and I hope that we can keep good reimbursement or deterrent plans in place to help them.  It would be nice to grant them depredation tags even if they'd want them (I betcha they would). 

Overall, after reading quite a number of articles written by actual biologists (rather than the armchair variety), I have a really hard time justifying the elimination of wolves.  Like Karl said above... They're literally doing what they have been doing for thousands of years before we showed up.  Manage them, sure.  Eliminate them?  Seems a bit weird at this point.

As for the WDFW meetings - those suck.  They do like 4-5 meetings in the middle of the week in areas that are hard to get to during rush hour.  They know what they're doing.

[ctwiggs1]

@Karl Blanchard - the most entertaining part of this thread is your auto correct.

[Karl Blanchard]

Once again KF, I very much am not trying to argue specifically with you and I feel we are very much on the same page when it comes to the fact that we need to hunt wolves.  I just don't like that the wolf is being blamed for so many things that it shouldn't be blamed for. You initially responded to my comment and we started this back and forth and I did not intent to single you out in my arguments. 

My point is and has been we need to call a spade a spade and be man enough to realize that the issues we have with ungulates has far less to do with Wolves than it does bigger factors like winter range, summer range, habitat in general, and over Harvest by all user groups including predators. Another point I made and special T reiterated is our lack of involvement as a group in the discussion. I self-admittedly I'm one of those offenders. My goal for this coming year is to attend at least two meetings somewhere in the state. Since Central Washington is a redheaded stepchild of the whole state we are very much left out of the conversation but I'm dedicated to making the drive east or west do you have my voice heard. I challenge all hunting Washington members to make the same commitment.

[Karl Blanchard]

@Karl Blanchard - the most entertaining part of this thread is your auto correct.

hey man I am not typing all that crap out on my phone! Talk to text for life

[Karl Blanchard]

I'll be completely honest:  I am losing steam in my anti-wolf rant train.

There is no doubt that if any part of WA has been impacted by wolves, it's the NE Corner.

And yet...
 -We still see "any buck" seasons for rifle up there, and "any deer" for ML and archery.
 -We still see "any bull" seasons for rifle up there, and "any elk" for ML and archery.
 -I have been killing a boatload of turkeys for the last several years up there, and they just opened up more areas this year to FOUR fall tags.

Is hunting up there different than it was 15 years ago?  Sure thing.  And it'll be even more different in 15 years from now due to wolves, bears, cougars, HUMANS, fires, etc. 

I've read numerous articles from bios stating that wolves tend to cause a ~10 year upset.  Massive change in animal numbers and patterns at first, but over 10 years things tend to normalize as ecosystem fixes itself.

I feel for the ranchers, and I hope that we can keep good reimbursement or deterrent plans in place to help them.  It would be nice to grant them depredation tags even if they'd want them (I betcha they would). 

Overall, after reading quite a number of articles written by actual biologists (rather than the armchair variety), I have a really hard time justifying the elimination of wolves.  Like Karl said above... They're literally doing what they have been doing for thousands of years before we showed up.  Manage them, sure.  Eliminate them?  Seems a bit weird at this point.

As for the WDFW meetings - those suck.  They do like 4-5 meetings in the middle of the week in areas that are hard to get to during rush hour.  They know what they're doing.

well stated sir

[BULLBLASTER]

@Karl Blanchard - the most entertaining part of this thread is your auto correct.

The easiest way to decipher what it means is to read the words and then have your mind listen to the words to hear what he said. It’s a real struggle texting with him too. 

[ctwiggs1]

@Karl Blanchard - the most entertaining part of this thread is your auto correct.

hey man I am not typing all that crap out on my phone! Talk to text for life

Whatever it takes to maintain healthy Oak herds

[KFhunter]

You really should let the NE part of WA be the 'proverbial canary in the gold mine', as these wolves here are the very same wolves that you have there. 

   but your areas are only just getting started, you have a lot more elk than here in the NE so it'll take a while, eventually you'll have even more wolves than we do.

I know so much of this is hypothetical because it's hard do you have solid numbers on anything but I'd be willing to bet the lack of logging a lot more to do with lower numbers than the wolves.  You are absolutely correct that my area will see an increase in wolves. But that just further proves my point the diminishing ungulate populations in my area is not due to wolves and it is due to man and mismanagement.
 Mismanagement also includes the endless list of convoluted crap involving wolves in this state.

Wyoming has farmer wolves and we do and they also do not hunt them but they have more elk in that state than ever before. They also have roughly all of the grizzly bears! So if wolves are the Devil Himself, how can this be true?

I've hunted Idaho every single season since 2002 in 17 different gmu's.  In that time and in my observations the wolf had a great impact initially but as we have generations of deer and Elk that have grown up with Wolves is far less of an impact numbers are rebounding greatly. I watched a herd of 70 Oak this year within a thousand yards of a Howling Wolf Pack and they hardly lifted their heads. They just went about their evening like they weren't even there. Mother nature will balance things out but we need to better manage our end.  And yes that includes shooting wolves. Aggressively.  I follow a lot of these wolf dreads but I don't ever comment for this exact reason. Arguing with wolf haters is the exact same as arguing with wolf lovers. It's pure emotion most of the time It's very hard to have a civil conversation where we deal in facts and not just emotions. if a person even questions some of the things stated then they are immediately labeled a wolf lover and a liberal tree hugger. People create Facebook groups dedicated to hating an animal for doing nothing more than being an animal. We want to play God and we put animals in some sort of hierarchy were one is worth more than the other. A living breathing thing is a living breathing thing unless......unless it's a rattlesnake! Rattlenakes really are the devil

1)  Don't label me a wolf hater.  I don't hate any animal, hate is purely reserved for evil humans.  Animals are incapable of evil, they just are.

2)  Wyoming does aggressive predator control, they have very aggressive state coyote control and run dogs on cats and have robust trapping.  To say that WY does not hunt wolves is inaccurate, they've had court battles and pauses in hunting wolves but they have hunted wolves and will continue to hunt wolves in that state.  Also, geographically speaking hunting wolves in WY is easier than in WA where you can really stretch the legs on your favorite long range caliber.  SSS has been far more effective in WY and ID, in ID the state governor sanctioned SSS.   Did you buy your .308 SSS Wolf Pack Raffle?  (google it)


I'm not sure why people want to compare ID, WY or MT to WA?  We're very different in this state with our much bigger population of people and smaller herds of Elk/Deer but bigger wolf plans and zero management of predators.

[KFhunter]

Once again KF, I very much am not trying to argue specifically with you and I feel we are very much on the same page when it comes to the fact that we need to hunt wolves.  I just don't like that the wolf is being blamed for so many things that it shouldn't be blamed for. You initially responded to my comment and we started this back and forth and I did not intent to single you out in my arguments. 

My point is and has been we need to call a spade a spade and be man enough to realize that the issues we have with ungulates has far less to do with Wolves than it does bigger factors like winter range, summer range, habitat in general, and over Harvest by all user groups including predators. Another point I made and special T reiterated is our lack of involvement as a group in the discussion. I self-admittedly I'm one of those offenders. My goal for this coming year is to attend at least two meetings somewhere in the state. Since Central Washington is a redheaded stepchild of the whole state we are very much left out of the conversation but I'm dedicated to making the drive east or west do you have my voice heard. I challenge all hunting Washington members to make the same commitment.

We aren't far off in our opinions but I feel like you've branded me a wolf hater that thinks all wolves must die and that's far from the truth.  I know they're here to stay, the ranchers around me all know that they're here to stay as well.   

Literally no one actually thinks there's even a slight hope of eliminating all the wolves, but opinions vary greatly on how many wolves we should have though 

[ctwiggs1]

So how long have you hated wolves @KFHunter?   

[Skyvalhunter]

That's your opinion about hate being reserved for evil humans

[KFhunter]

My stance on wolves is implementing coyote rules.  24/7 365 shoot on sight. 

"My gawd!  KF wants to kill them all!!  Oh the shock! Ohhh the horror!!!!  He's a wolf hater         "


No, I don't hate them nor do I want them all killed.  I just do not believe that a 24/7 365 hunting season similar to coyote rules will have a big impact on the over all population of wolves in Washington state. They are hard to kill, hard to hunt and in much of Washington's geography they have plenty of places to escape and avoid all those evil hunters with guns. 

The positive side of this is that this is the only plan that has even a slight chance of keeping the wolves where the wolves are meant to be, in the remote woods far away from people. 
This is the only plan that has a chance of educating wolves "people are bad, livestock is near people, and people are bad"

*IF* my prediction is wrong (very unlikely) and the wolf population is declining below the plans objectives..... then simply reducing the wolf hunt for a few years will allow them to quickly come back up to full population.