The perfect arrow/broadhead combination?

[Machias]

Ok, wow I just had a loooong conversation with a friend of mine who is a retired Air Force survival specialist that knows Dr. Ashby well and has shot longbow/recurves for a long time.  He used to shoot with Ashby in a handgun club up in Alaska years ago.  He went to the Grizzly's because of the Dr's report.  He loved the penetration, the flight, and their ruggedness.  He no long shoots them!  He said they did all those things fantastic, but left absolute horrible blood trails and several deer he shot with them in the Scablands ran forever, leaving little to no blood trail, (luckily he could watch them) before piling up and some even needed a second arrow.  He also lost four elk when using these heads.  He went back to a three blade and has not had the same problems.  

[Todd_ID]

Thanks!  Now what the heck do I do?  Maybe he was having troubles getting them sharp?  Maybe he had some poor hits?  I'd like to have been a fly on the wall to get the full story on those losses!  I can't wrap my mind around how all that research could have been wrong?  I never found any holes in his physics or unexplained leaps in his processes.   

I've taken more than a few animals with 2 blade heads and can't really remember a bad blood trail on any of them.  Those were with the old Fred Bear Razorheads in the 80's and more recently with the Magnus Stingers.

If he had them stand up to all of the research and do what they were supposed to, then I think that will work for me.  The blood trails will be there.....at least that's my way of thinking.

[Intruder]

This is one hell of an interesting discussion.  I totally dig the objective scientific minutia behind all this.  Interesting side note by Machias.... would like to understand why there might not be "good" blood trails.

How does actual broadhead sturdiness play a role in this?  I'm guessing that if the broadhead cannot maintain it's integrity alot of this is for not.  Is there much info on the relative ruggedness of these various heads?

[Machias]

A couple of the hits he described were NOT where I would want to place an arrow, but he said he he had a couple of elk he hit perfect and they were not recovered due to non-existent blood trails.  He's taken quite a few animals over the years with archery tackle.    I was suprised to hear it as well.  You know sometimes you can have something happen and get it in your head that it's the equipments fault when in reality it could be shot placement or something else.  

[Machias]

This is one hell of an interesting discussion.  I totally dig the objective scientific minutia behind all this.  Interesting side note by Machias.... would like to understand why there might not be "good" blood trails.

How does actual broadhead sturdiness play a role in this?  I'm guessing that if the broadhead cannot maintain it's integrity alot of this is for not.  Is there much info on the relative ruggedness of these various heads?

Some of the older broadhead blades would peel when they came in contact with bone.  I don't think it's near as much a problem nowadays as it used to be.

[Todd_ID]

Structural integrity is a must have for any of this to be valid.  I like the construction of these bigger heads.  They are bent on hitting rock, I'd guess, but there's just nothing to break off.  The 310 grain Ashby head pictured earlier on this thread from Alaska Bowhunting Supply is CNC milled from a single piece of stainless, so there's no way in hell that you'll ever break it.  The Grizzly head I bought is 2 pieces of metal welded together, so I'm guessing that it is tough as all get out also.  With the heavy heads you get to use much more steel in building and designing, so there's more meat to work with, and that should lead to much better integrity. 

I've lost blades on several heads in elk and deer over the years: Satellite, Wasp, Muzzy 3 blades, Bear Razorheads, and Rocket Ultimate Steel that I can remember.  I think the bleeder blade on the Bear Razorheads fell out in flight before reaching the animal because they were never on there when you found your arrow!  The ones that haven't come apart on me were Snuffer SS (one piece), Slick Trick, Magnus Stinger, and Thunderheads.

[Machias]

"I think the bleeder blade on the Bear Razorheads fell out in flight before reaching the animal because they were never on there when you found your arrow!"   

[boneaddict]

I've often wondered about the blood trail, but while using the stingers have had no problem at all on several moose, elk, deer and probably a few other animals.  I could see it in bear with fat plugging the hole.

[Intruder]

I know if you read some of the scientific studies on wound channels that have been done on bullets there are some surprising findings.  The classic 2-3 times diameter mushroom we've all been looking for in a bullet isn't actually the best.  It is good but believe it or not a flat faced cylinder actually causes a more profound wound channel.  It seems kinda counter intuitive until you read some of the data behind it.  Maybe there's something like that at work??? 

[Machias]

I dunno, I think in this case it may have more to do with placement then anything!!

[Todd_ID]

I've often wondered about the blood trail, but while using the stingers have had no problem at all on several moose, elk, deer and probably a few other animals.  I could see it in bear with fat plugging the hole.

The last two bears I've shot with my bow have been with the Magnus Stingers.  Neither of the blood trails would be described as "buckets of blood everywhere", but, also, neither of them required any serious looking to find the trail.  There was no need to mark the last blood spot to look for the next.  Neither bear went more than 100 yards, either.

[Todd_ID]

Maybe there is no such thing as "best available".  Each of us seems to have a varied opinion in such a manner that the concensus is a shotgun pattern.

Machias is right: placement will always reign supreme.  Sometimes, however, stuff happens that we'd like to think our equipment could make up for.  I plan on being able to make the shot count when I get the chance, but who knows what can happen between release and THWACK!

[Machias]

Todd I'm sure in your journey you've looked at the Woodsman boradheads, any thoughts on those, they really look like they would fit the bill?

[Todd_ID]

I measured those one time for a study I was doing about this type of stuff.  With a 3" cutting surface and only a 1" cutting diameter they had a good Mechanical Advantage for the TPI formula (2.00).  The 3:1 ratio is a good one for serious penetration.  I've never shot them, but the ones that I had on an arrow at the pro shop wouldn't spin too well.  I'm sure that they could be adjusted enough to get them to spin (and therefore fly) well.  In trying to get the Extreme FOC that Dr. Ashby is talking about (>19%) I needed something heavier.  The 150 grain Woodsman with a 75 grain brass Axis HIT insert would have gotten me close (probably 16-17%), but then the overall weight would have been a bunch short of his 650 grain "bone breaking threshold".  The Grizzly at 290 grains with the steel inserts came to 22% FOC and 657 grains: thereby meeting both requirements.

[Todd_ID]

To answer the question about ability to sharpen the single-bevel broadheads, I decided to try one out.  I am now weaing a shiny new Band-Aid for my efforts.  It took some work to get the bevel to the 30 degree angle that my Lansky has, but, once I did, all I can say is DAMN!  I used the back of a leather belt to strop them for a finish, and they are every bit as sharp as any replacement blade for any broadhead that you can buy.  Beyond shaving sharp is scary sharp; that's where this head ended up.

As a safety note to those trying this out with the Lansky: keep your finger under the handle to prevent your thumb from riding up the frame and into the bottom (already sharpened) blade.  This should save a finger or two from the dumb mistake I made.