Heavy Single Bevel is the ONLY way

[luvmystang67]

The title is just to invoke emotion/interest.  My own experience is actually very mixed on this.

I thought I'd share a story on my experience with single bevel broadheads.  This is one of those "airing dirty laundry" posts, so rather than judge the crap out of me, just try to learn from the experience.  I know some of these scenarios leave some room for campfire scruitney about shots or practice that should occur.  Something about a big bull bugling in your face that has a way of taking all of your practice and tossing it out the window.

I started hunting with 100 gr slick tricks, because D-Rock said I should.  They worked great, and I really have no qualms with them.  I killed 3 elk and several deer with these broadheads and they flew nearly identical to field points.  Pretty deadly little things really.  I actually have major questions about moving away from them as they never did me wrong.  On bull elk, I had a broadside passthrough at 12 yards (lung, went 70 yards), I had a frontal at 12 yards (buried, arrow didn't exit but wasn't visible), pass through that was in no-mans-land between lungs and backbone (bull didn't die, back on cam healthy 2 weeks later), and a moving shot at 10 yards with a slight deflection from a branch (dead bull, went 500 yards), only 8" of penetration.  Varied history, but generally positive.  One lost bull, who lived, and even that was a passthrough.  The only ones that weren't passthrough either buried the full 29" arrow, or were deflected and didn't hit squarely.

Then, I listened to the meat eater podcast with Ed Ashby, and especially as an engineer, it made a lot of sense to me.  Still does.  With an arrow, you're not looking to transfer energy to the animal, ideally you cut as big of a hole as you can, just so that the arrow barely drops out of the far side for a complete pass through.  Given that we can't always have ideal, we're looking to punch as long of a channel as we can, so that we get deep penetration and hopefully pass-through, no matter where we hit.  I can hear the argument already, why not use a field point then, and noted, but you want to have SOME balance of cut size to hit important things, while not limiting your potential for deep penetration.  This is an optimization problem, where you want to get as deep as you can, with as much cutting surface as possible and we mostly disagree on how to achieve this.  With a well placed shot, a crazy sharp field point-like head probably IS the best, so some of this is just protecting for the most likely errors you cause.  If you're likely to misjudge distance, you'll want a light/fast setup, but if you're likely to judge distance well, but hit a shoulder or a twig, then bigger and heavier is for you.  If you judge distance well, and hit where you aim, and have no twigs, then you can probably use whatever the heck you want, even a non-functional expandable would probably do the trick.

All that aside, our camp went weight forward and heavy.  Not MEGA heavy, but I think I'm around 550 grains, up probably 135 grains from where I was before, give or take.  I use 100 grain inserts, and 150 grain Cutthroat heads, single bevel, shooting about 260 FPS.  We've had mixed results with these.  The first year my buddy lost a bull (with a pass through), and blood stopped about 500 yards from the shot.  He swears blood was coming out both sides of it when he last saw it at 40.  Who knows what happened there, but we looked with 3 guys a second half of one day, and a whole nother day and turned up nothing after he ran uphill.  I suspect the shot was further back or higher than anticipated.  That same year, I played around with illuminated nocks.  I practiced, but apparently not enough, and the slight extra weight of those nocks REALLY messed with my arrow tune, and sent my arrows corkscrewing through the air.  I didn't really learn this until after I shot at a bull at 40 yards, and hit low and back...(pass through) and then shot my arrows at targets with both nocks and found the difference.  This is definitely my fault.  The blood trail wasn't great, but a gut shot wouldn't be... This bull was alive and walking uphill 9 hours later, looking pretty happy, all things considered.  So, rocky start to the new heads.

Then comes this year.  I had the bull I shot this year come into 30 yards.  I wouldn't say I had a great degree of trust with my setup, given the experience from the prior year (it was actually 2 years prior, the 1 year prior was a dry year for us).  This bull was quartered to.  I aimed further back than I should have for his position, and hit where I aimed.  When I shot it sound like a good ol' rifle "THUMP", which was weird to me.  After the shot, I went and looked for the arrow as I expected a pass through, and never found it.  Blood wasn't great, I had it from probably 50 yards from the shot, to 100 yards from the shot, and in the end he had piled up 170 yards from the shot.  As I was tracking, I was thinking "We gotta get new heads, these blood trails suck."  When I found him, really not far from the shot, I noticed maybe 8" of arrow sticking out, and was even more frustrated I didn't get a passthrough.  Thats the point of these things, right?  Well, when I started cutting, it was my first sign of something... there was bone dust where I pulled off the hind quarter, reminding you of a rifle shot.  Then came me cutting the meat up... THE FEMUR WAS DESTROYED.  My arrow had penetrated 20+ inches through the animal, and then still had the power to shatter his femur on the off side.  I cannot believe it was able to retain that much momentum, and do what you hear of these things doing.  I was bailed out by my broadhead.  I'm still not sure if I ever hit liver, because I did gutless, but I'm certain that having your femur broken impacts your ability to move away from the shot.  In this specific scenario, the heavy single bevel bailed me out, and we recovered the animal. 

Regardless of your judgment of my story, its hard not to be impressed by an arrow doing its job that well, in the circumstance I put it in.  While I don't want to hit a shoulder bone, I now would be VERY surprised if these didn't tear through them if that scenario came to pass.
This settles no debate, but demonstrates a heavy single bevel doing what it is supposed to.  I have a feeling that had we been using our lightweight configs the 2 seasons prior, we might have those two animals instead of this one... but it is hard to say.
I'm going to stick with them for now, they were expensive!  I need a few more samples on what they can do before I bail in favor of a more traditional "fast" setup.

[HUNTINCOUPLE]

Very very nice!

[bearhunter99]

Which broadheads were you using?  Definitely did a number on that leg!

[luvmystang67]

Which broadheads were you using?  Definitely did a number on that leg!

These are the Cutthroat 150 grain heads, paired with 100 grain brass inserts.  This was actually the S7 version, and because the edge was dinged up, they said they'd send me a new one based on their lifetime warranty.  Class act outfit, just need to get a small enough box to send that one back.

https://rmsgear.com/collections/broadheads/products/cutthroat-single-bevel-screw-in?_pos=1&_fid=8b959ab43&_ss=c

[D-Rock425]

You're a ranch fairy D rider.

[luvmystang67]

You're a ranch fairy D rider.

Okay, I looked it up.

Horrible name for a company, but I think you're kinda right, @D-Rock425

[highside74]

Judging from the picture of the arrow sticking out, it's amazing that you hit the off leg. Great bull. Thanks for sharing.

[highside74]

You're a ranch fairy D rider.

  It's all about the penetration.

[blackveltbowhunter]

I enjoy these discussions and agree the debate of cut trauma or wound channel vs penetration debate will never end.

It all boils down to the question...... Where do you intend to miss? Do you plan to Miss thru soft flesh and organs with an arrow path that leaves pentration wasted in the dirt on the back side of the critter? Or is your intention to miss into heaven muscle and bone and an arrow path that puts vital organs behind these blocking structures. 

Your shot selection and arrow path will determine whether you are complimenting or handicapping your choices. Also your equipment should give you every opportunity to not miss.

If I was to offer observations and some things to consider.... none of the shots were ideal. 2 from misses your buddies and the illuminated nocks bull, and 1 from poor shot selection this years bull. The setup your shooting is meant to inspire confidence when aiming close to big bones allowing angled shots at the vital V
It is possible that 2 shots have different outcomes with bigger holes, wider cuts, possibly more blood and specific to the case of the illuminated nock possibly not a gut shot at all as a different broadhead may well have been less affected by the spine reaction adding the illumenok.

Great conversation. Congrats on the bull! And glad you found some confidence in your equipment choice and performance!

[luvmystang67]

I DID just watch one of the new Stuck n the Rut videos where they shot a mechanical at a bull last year, hit him RIGHT in the bread basket and got maybe 10" of penetration. 

I feel pretty confident saying that if you're running mechanicals, especially on elk, I believe you should reconsider.  Can it work?  Sure.  Do I trust it? Not at all.  You can kill an elk with a .223, but it doesn't mean its the best choice.  IMO mechanicals are the .223 of elk hunting.

[Stein]

I'm not sure where I stand on the topic although I currently shoot Magnus Stingers.

For the shot you took, the argument for mechanicals would be that the femur shot didn't kill the animal and a wider cut all the way through until the femur would have led to a quicker death and easier track.

I can see both sides of the argument, I guess I'm in the "sufficient penetration and then as much cutting diameter as you can get" camp.

Congrats on the elk!

[IFunk]

+1 for Cutthroat broadheads.  I don't have any experience with them on game(yet).  That's a whole different topic.     But I can vouch for their sharpness. 

Tom Clum is my archery coach and his shop in Wheatridge, CO makes them.  You won't find a nicer guy on the planet and their family run shop and archery range there is second to none.  I've taken a tour of the backroom where they grind and polish the broadheads and it's impressive.  They have a tight tolerance and group the heads together based on grain weight. 

They are carbon tool steel and need to be well lubricated before being taken out to the field.  I made the mistake of not protecting them before elk hunting once in a day long downpour and found out the hard way.  Tom brought them back to new.  I now dip them in vaseline before shoving them into my quiver. 

With my 41# recurve and 650 grain aluminum arrows, I can shoot them through my 10" thick foam target and bury them up the fletching. 

[blackveltbowhunter]

I DID just watch one of the new Stuck n the Rut videos where they shot a mechanical at a bull last year, hit him RIGHT in the bread basket and got maybe 10" of penetration. 

I feel pretty confident saying that if you're running mechanicals, especially on elk, I believe you should reconsider.  Can it work?  Sure.  Do I trust it? Not at all.  You can kill an elk with a .223, but it doesn't mean its the best choice.  IMO mechanicals are the .223 of elk hunting.

 And boom there it is. Debate open.... 

 One could argue based on your story, where you state you were not confident in your equipment going into the season, and an elk recovery rate of 30 percent since using the new heads,  that YOU should reconsider.

The stuck in the rut video leaves ALOT open to interpretation..... we have no reference for his past success with the head? what head? How well his equipment was setup and tuned, his maximum range, or any other edits. We also have no idea if the head actually failed, broken blades, deployment failures etc only that it "deflected" it also hit where we assumed he aimed,  left plenty of blood for them to follow and caused enough trauma to keg the bull up. The shot looks placed well, but it also looks like the bull may have been slightly quartered to as well, tough to see exact body position at moment of impact and again we are relying on complete transparency on their end.  In the end maybe it was a failure or deficiency with the BH, or it may have been they were bailed out by a larger wound channel on a misread angle, deflection, or animal movment, without more info it's impossible to call. It wasn't super clean, but IMO it was a recovered animal without a difficult track and an animal unable to get up at the end of it.

NO broadhead is perfect. All have strengths and weaknesses. An archers confidence should come, not from believing they have made a "perfect" choice in setup or equipment.  But from understanding the limitations of what they are choosing to use and catering to the strengths, and doing everything possible to minimize the weaknesses. 

[luvmystang67]

I DID just watch one of the new Stuck n the Rut videos where they shot a mechanical at a bull last year, hit him RIGHT in the bread basket and got maybe 10" of penetration. 

I feel pretty confident saying that if you're running mechanicals, especially on elk, I believe you should reconsider.  Can it work?  Sure.  Do I trust it? Not at all.  You can kill an elk with a .223, but it doesn't mean its the best choice.  IMO mechanicals are the .223 of elk hunting.

 And boom there it is. Debate open.... 

 One could argue based on your story, where you state you were not confident in your equipment going into the season, and an elk recovery rate of 30 percent since using the new heads,  that YOU should reconsider.

The stuck in the rut video leaves ALOT open to interpretation..... we have no reference for his past success with the head? what head? How well his equipment was setup and tuned, his maximum range, or any other edits. We also have no idea if the head actually failed, broken blades, deployment failures etc only that it "deflected" it also hit where we assumed he aimed,  left plenty of blood for them to follow and caused enough trauma to keg the bull up. The shot looks placed well, but it also looks like the bull may have been slightly quartered to as well, tough to see exact body position at moment of impact and again we are relying on complete transparency on their end.  In the end maybe it was a failure or deficiency with the BH, or it may have been they were bailed out by a larger wound channel on a misread angle, deflection, or animal movment, without more info it's impossible to call. It wasn't super clean, but IMO it was a recovered animal without a difficult track and an animal unable to get up at the end of it.

NO broadhead is perfect. All have strengths and weaknesses. An archers confidence should come, not from believing they have made a "perfect" choice in setup or equipment.  But from understanding the limitations of what they are choosing to use and catering to the strengths, and doing everything possible to minimize the weaknesses. 

Touche

My biggest surprise on my heads is that this one didn't pass through... which I was outraged by, given that it was the entire point.  But, hitting the femur simmered my rage a little.  All of our other non-recoverys have been pass throughs, so its doing that right at least.

I have not been impressed with any of the blood trails.

The ideal broadhead and shot combination cuts as wide of a channel as possible and just barely breaks out the opposite side of the elk.  Ideally, you'd be able to change this mid-flight depending on where your trajectory is going, but clearly that is impossible.  I would feel reasonable saying that if every broadside shot flys right through the animal, you could probably look at trying to get a larger cutting diameter.  However if you've NEVER had a passthrough on a good broadside shot, I'd say you'd want to consider a smaller cutting diamater.

To me, at a minimum, you want a passthrough on a good broadside shot, at say 30-40 yards.  If a mechanical does that regularly, I guess I don't see an inherent problem with them, but I haven't seen a ton of examples of that on elk.  Maybe I haven't looked hard enough.

[huntindoc]

Love this debate!  10 years ago I wandered down the rabbit hole of single cut to blade brought heads.  I looked at all the Ashby information, started building arrows.  I was chasing Cape Buffalo in Tanzania (didn't get a shot at buff, but did shoot a hartebeest at 76 yrds).  I built arrows for the Buffalo that was almost 1200 grains.  I could hit a paper plate at 80 yards consistently.  That season, I shot a white tail with it.  It was quartering too- 45 yards and the exit wound through the off hip look like a 300 magnum.  It was amazing.
I built and shot various other arrows and finally settled on 580 grain area with a lot of weight forward.  I would love how this arrow shoots.  Excellent penetration and cut.  I know we all have our opinions and our own experiences but I will never shoot a mechanical Broadhead particularly at elk.  Regardless what you shoot, the placement is the most important factor!

[Stein]

"Mechanical" is a pretty broad term, it could be 1.125" or 4" x 4 blade.  The 2" hybrid style have been getting a bunch of attention from several high profile elk guys that don't seem to be paid to say it although you never know for sure.

The logic is as mentioned above, maximum cutting diameter while adequately penetrating.

[blackveltbowhunter]

Elk are the anomaly. Most folks agree mechanicals are decent for deer and smaller, aside from those who have had bad experiences.  Conversly getting folks on board that a heavier arrow and COC 3to1 are needed for buffalo or trad equipment is a pretty easy argument as well. 

Elk with modern equipment is a conundrum. You don't see alot of videos of 90 yard shots at Buffalo, or frontal, or quarter 2 hits into guts, or single lung. Elk are hunted by calling, spot and stalk, ground blinds, tree stands and every other tactic you can think of. Many hunters do not have the luxury of multiple encounters in a season, and pushing the envelope on shot selection from both angle and distance standpoint is the trend.

I will use an example that happened to me this past season. For the record, my setup is a 500 grain arrow at 285 fps, 15 percent FOC and I was using a mechanical broadhead. I had a gorgeous rosie bull at sub 40 yards. The bull was quartered to pretty hard. The angle he presented was such that a shot very tight in the vital V was the only option for success, inches to the right it hits the knuckle, inches to the left and it hits one lung and guts. He was not quartered enough to go for a frontal shot.  As I assessed all of this in the seconds he gave me at full draw, I opted to refrain from shooting deeming the situation as a whole a low odds of success. I hoped the bull, would slowly turn away opening up as he went, but he swapped towards me and cut out of there. I ended up having to wait 34 hours to get on him again.
   
I beleive this exact situation is why the broadhead debate is hotly contested. Let's say I shoot. Odds of a few inch miss for me at 40 yards is dam low,  but certainly not outside the realm of possibility, i am rushed, in the heat of battle, and pouring rain and only seconds to figure out this
 shoot not shoot scenario. IF I lace the bull perfectly, most likely either head is a winner. Yes, the mechanical is at a disadvantage as it is likely to contact the tight ribs and muscles of the bulls front end, but odds are good pentration will be enough to be effective. The single bevel has clear penetration advantage, but at 40 yards pinpoint accuracy forgiveness could be a factor. We are talking about a fist sized right or left window without either major bone contact or missing heart or both lungs.

   Let's play it out as I miss a few inches.... to the right. Single bevel becomes the hero, potentially breaking through the shoulder bone, maybe even the knuckle severing arteries and probably killing the bull in seconds. The mechanical is a horror story, and probably falls out after 4 inches of penetration.  To the left..... almost a complete opposite. Both heads cut one lung. The mechanical cuts 2x as much lung tissue, is at least 2x more likely to cut the liver and/or diaphragm and more likely to leave good blood in the downpour. The single bevel, will likely pass thru, leaving far less damage in it's wake. Possibly even more of a problem its less likely to leave major blood on the ground. We could get lucky with either head and have it be stuck inside cutting as the bull moves, both cases are good but again the edge goes to mechanical due to its higher likelihood of staying in the cavity and the increased trauma potential.

 I really think it's hard to argue with a quality 3 blade fixed for mixing the two worlds, but its certainly not the best of both. In the end I opted to pass and I still don't regret that decision.