2010 WDFW Spring Turkey Hunting Pamplet (2008 Harvest Numbers)

[yelp]

You mean the new biologist they recently hired, got fired........wonder why. Don't see him listed anymore on the NWTF for Idaho, Washington or Oregon.  I have a wild guess....  

I heard from a good source too..I believe it is the same guy. That is why I asked the question just to see if there is a new Bio that Tamer is talking about...

[yelp]

You mean the new biologist they recently hired, got fired........wonder why. Don't see him listed anymore on the NWTF for Idaho, Washington or Oregon.  I have a wild guess....  

Job Opening Wacenturian?   

[dawei]

"Thank god there is no more free turkey tag...those days were unreal."

Just another crowning achievement from WDFW's Wildlife Management ..........free taggers.  I agree......thank God big time.  Really promoted the sport .....huh.

FWIW, as a disabled hunter, I get my first Turkey tag for free with my small game license. If I wish any subsequent tag I must purchase it, albeit at half price. I DO NOT hunt turkeys in the fall. I'm not trying to rub it in anyone's face, just stating a fact.

[fishunt247]

If you get the info on how much it would cost to pay landowners to leave buffer zones, etc., you would then have to compare that to the cost to trap and transplant. By far, the most effective method to take away complaints from land owners AND benefit Merriam counties throughout the state would be to trap and transplant, right?

And dawei, we were talking about the masses (and really it was masses) of people that were around during the free tag days, not those who come about a free tag by other means. Congrats on still hunting despite a disability. Shows character.

[Wacenturion]

If you get the info on how much it would cost to pay landowners to leave buffer zones, etc., you would then have to compare that to the cost to trap and transplant. By far, the most effective method to take away complaints from land owners AND benefit Merriam counties throughout the state would be to trap and transplant, right?

And dawei, we were talking about the masses (and really it was masses) of people that were around during the free tag days, not those who come about a free tag by other means. Congrats on still hunting despite a disability. Shows character.

Yes trap and transfer would be the easiest, cheapest (although WDFW would now argue more expensive since they don't do it anymore), and best public relations way to do it.  Always was before and is the best option, especially when you add in the benefits on the other end from the release of those birds in other areas in other counties where people want them...both landowners and sportsmen.

dawei..............certainly not directed at you or the way you get your first tag.  As fishunt said...the comment was directed at the masses of road hunters and others that WDFW created in the turkey hunting pool when everyone got a free tag with the upland bird license.  Hope that clears it up.  In my opinion, you should also get a free license.

[yelp]

If you get the info on how much it would cost to pay landowners to leave buffer zones, etc., you would then have to compare that to the cost to trap and transplant. By far, the most effective method to take away complaints from land owners AND benefit Merriam counties throughout the state would be to trap and transplant, right?

And dawei, we were talking about the masses (and really it was masses) of people that were around during the free tag days, not those who come about a free tag by other means. Congrats on still hunting despite a disability. Shows character.

A typical trap and transfer operation included minimum 2 explosive licensees to set up rocket nets..and then volunteers were used to band birds for release and put into boxes..the travelling could be done using volunteers..etc.  There also is the prep..which costed just time to maintain baited sites..so a week prior getting ready.  $1000.00/trap with labor, gas, bait..this is approx.  Removing 20-50 birds a trap..cost could be as low as $10-20/bird.  

Buffers would actually could be cheaper because there is Federal money available through NRCS for food plot type habitat..using volunteer labor as match costing landowner..nothing, just a few hours of an experts time to assist landowner to fill out paperwork and designing mix..and  whatever time needed to getting it seeded and put in the ground.  

One action removes the threat... the other removes but could attract more turkeys to a given area..the idea is to attract them to an area away from any temptation..

I would prefer one over the other..but both maybe doable..having lots of tools in the tool box is essential to be able to meet the challenges this topic has.

DAWEI - When the free tag was around everyone got one with the small game...even upland bird hunters that didn't hunt turkeys got them..many of them said it felt like a tag burning a hole in thier pocket...so many of them new to the sport..didn't hunt them properly because they didn't know how..so they did what they learned flushed, jumped, trespassed, etc..just to fill a tag.  It created a situation that made turkey hunters look bad.  The veterans, youth, over 65 and disabled should all get a free turkey tag with thier small game in my book...

[fishunt247]

Back in the late 90's (98ish I believe) I was on transplants in the Rattlesnake drainage (Naches, WA) and in the Teanaway. My dad was the president of the Yakima chapter of the NWTF, so I came along with him and the other volunteers and opened turkey boxes. I know a lot of people that would be willing to volunteer for trap and transplants again. I see the transplants being more beneficial: removing the threat from one area as well as benefitting another. I can see how this one would require more work/funds though.

[Wacenturion]

Hey Yelp......with the exception of youth I almost fit into the other 3 categories...lol

Yelp also makes a good point on the costs and having more than one option.  As a historical sidenote the dollars that paid for trap and transfer were either federal dollars from selling an idea to the feds on a larger program that encompassed trap and transfer to get program dollars over a 10 year period, or federal dollars from PR funding which is a state 25% federal 75% match, along with some additional NWTF funds for extra nets, bait etc.  

So I guess it would be more expensive from WDFW's standpoint as most of those dollars are no longer there.  They never contributed(like in paying their portion) to the the program as it grew and essentially let it slip away.  Basically I'm saying that in the 90's trap and transfer costs were covered by other funds......none from WDFW if you want to be precise.  So with that being said...yep....more expensive.

Consider though what funds were raised by turkey releases and the tag sales that followed.  I think I mentioned earlier what that amounted to.  So...was it expensive....absolutely not.  Did it pay for itself...absolutely.  Was it a money maker...............was it ever and then some and still is.  Funds from tag sales would pay for trap and transfer well into the future.  I guess it's just how you look at it.

[Tom Tamer]

You mean the new biologist they recently hired, got fired........wonder why. Don't see him listed anymore on the NWTF for Idaho, Washington or Oregon.  I have a wild guess....  

This is true....sounds like an internal thing they're not giving any info.....personally what he was doing out in the front I was liking his enthusiasum at least, THey are working hard to replace him....probably soon. It already cost us some good landonwer contacts in the S.E.. When I find out we'll pass it along.

 Thanks for the comments Yelp, I also wanted to clear up an earlier statement about sidelines, to me when I speak of that I am directing it more toward folks that may be inclined to help and maybe it will help them in a positive way be more active. But when it comes to the likes of yourself Wac, and others I feel you guys already put in your time, I know that when you guys were more highly involved and before the NWTF, you're more the ones involved getting these birds here....period. Now while I call it " my generation" of the NWTF I feel it's ours to try more on the habitat front in order to get more trap and transfers. I't will be almost impossible to get the WDFW to put any birds in new areas. That project up North, while I know you were against the Sub species in question, it was really de-railed by a few non hunting types. It bent the nose at the WDFW so bad that they won't stick it back in. When in the past I've talked with the WDFW upland/turkey management. Their reasoning behind not moving " over populated areas into already estabished flock is, way back when '80's and '90s and you and Wac probably know this better than I, they feel/felt that they aren't going to do a put/take mentality due to past introductions that may have failed for what ever reason. Personally I think that is a HorseSH&* answer to todays flocks, but you guys know the WDFW So for now we're stuck, they won't move birds and the only managment the WDFW will do as you're well aware of is Blast the crap out of many as you can, or they turn  a blind eye to Farmers doing it themselves.

 I noticed on a a previous post Wac mentioned doing it ourselves by not participating( boycotting ) the fall harvest. I'm of that nature, I argued til blue in the face about you can't grow a flock by destroying it.I will go on a fall hunt this year only because my Daughter will take hunter Ed in June, and Turkeydancer is going to kindly take her and I over to get her first bird. I wanted her to witness what the flock does as a whole, all the social activities and such. She was along with me last year and got a real good taste of what Public land hunting has to offer. Also wanted to do it so we could get her in a comfortable shooting situation. Other than that I probably wouldn't even go over for a fall hunt. While a true to form fall hunt, like folks due back East I think would be awesome.....walking around and grouse hunting for turkey does not appeal to me.

[Tom Tamer]

Hey Yelp......with the exception of youth I almost fit into the other 3 categories...lol

Yelp also makes a good point on the costs and having more than one option.  As a historical sidenote the dollars that paid for trap and transfer were either federal dollars from selling an idea to the feds on a larger program that encompassed trap and transfer to get program dollars over a 10 year period, or federal dollars from PR funding which is a state 25% federal 75% match, along with some additional NWTF funds for extra nets, bait etc. 

So I guess it would be more expensive from WDFW's standpoint as most of those dollars are no longer there.  They never contributed(like in paying their portion) to the the program as it grew and essentially let it slip away.  Basically I'm saying that in the 90's trap and transfer costs were covered by other funds......none from WDFW if you want to be precise.  So with that being said...yep....more expensive.

Consider though what funds were raised by turkey releases and the tag sales that followed.  I think I mentioned earlier what that amounted to.  So...was it expensive....absolutely not.  Did it pay for itself...absolutely.  Was it a money maker...............was it ever and then some and still is.  Funds from tag sales would pay for trap and transfer well into the future.  I guess it's just how you look at it.

Those dollars are still there and should be, I can't remember exact dates but right after we got them to cease on the free tag a State NWTF BOD member actually got a law written and enacted that  1/3 of all tag proceeds are for turkey Only, hence they can not by law be touched for anything but what they have to do with turkeys.
 It does/did help pay for the NWTF bio, half of his salary was paid by our State which is a good thing, showing the State is warming up to work with us, and the rest they waste on stupid crap( Shocked....not)
 One was a study this " Turkey" specialist did, where he radio collared a hen in the Clockum and followded her blip for two years....his findings were that she wandered various areas and distances but never had any answer why Igave him my opinion, food, safety, easiest way to survive. I could've saved them some money there I think

[fishunt247]

Did any trap and transplants fail??? The only area that I've never spent any time in is Chelan/Okanogan; all of the other places they were transplanted I have spent significant time. While there are definitely some flocks that aren't thriving, they are holding on. Too bad the WDFW views the turkey transplant as a put and take trout fishery. It wasn't like this. If they went out and had a look, did some actual field work (novel idea, I know) they would see this. Hell, all they would have to do would be drive up the Teanaway in the fall and look at the birds. They were put here, not all were taken, and they are doing quite well. I remember there were some problems with the plants in the Rattlesnake and Tampico with birds being shot by fall deer/elk hunters...a lot of the radio'd birds in these transplanted flocks were killed. But even with the legal spring harvest in mind, the Yakima NWTF chapter during the transplant years tried really hard to get the GMUs where they were released closed for a few seasons to allow the birds to get established. The WDFW would have nothing of it...less revenue.

[Tom Tamer]

I think those ones that failed or percieved to fail were done back in the '80's....But your arguement is exactly what I thought and said......look at'em now it's working. Heck the times I was up the Teanaway in the past month I was shocked at the amount I saw.....Thought I was in Chewelah for a minute But I think if we keep on them and get a louder bigger group, and not so passive as in the past maybe we can change it.

 That North sound project was derailed by a few witha loud voice. Get a lot with a louder voice and they got to listen, especially if we can have facts to base it on. verytim the naysayers get hit with facts it destroys their opinionated theory.

[Wacenturion]

WDFW's reasoning that they're dishing out is absolute crap.  The only thing that didn't really take off were early mid 80's releases in Region 3, specifically in the Wenas and some on the lower Colockum.  Those were Rio's, and although they hung on to some extent, the majority of those areas are better suited for Merriam's.  It wasn't a failure as such, as that the only reason the first Rio's from Oklahoma went there was, it the only Region open to planting turkey at that time.  Ironic huh, how things have turned around.

Idiots in the department use these short coming to conveniently say it would be put and take.  It's more like we don't want them there is what they mean.  WDFW wants to keep the Merriams out of there in any new numbers because they will eventually take off, as they did in the Okanogan and elsewhere.  That's the last thing they want....more expanding turkey populations.

Another thing that was idiotic was the last releases that were allowed in there...Region 3, the biologist insisted in radio collaring a good number of those birds if I recall.  That's like the kiss of death.  Anytime you strap something like a radio collar backpack on a turkey, you severely reduce it's chances of survival.  That's one reason radio telemetry studies show high mortality's, unless a bib mount is used.  That technique was first used on wild turkeys in Washington, on Easterns in the late 80's....with little to no mortality.  Of course bio's just have to reinvent the wheel.  An example of pure stupidity by someone who knew very little about turkeys but was a self ordained expert on what to do with them.  Again that politically correct management at work.  Throw common sense out the window.  

Tamer.............you mentioned that the state was picking up half the tab on the biologist.  If that's the case, then the state chapter ought to have a lion's share as to who they hire.  In fact you guys would be better served spending that money a 1/2 time bio focusing only on Washington....forget Oregon and Idaho.  One other thing...NWTF tends to like "kumbyea" types...like in don't rock the boat, don't get politically involved, don't upset the WDFW.  That's the problem.  I think volunteers who raise the money expect someone to stand up for them...to WDFW, at Commission mettings, wherever BS resides.  That's the only way to beat em and get relocation efforts going again.

[Wacenturion]

Tamer...I just want to clarify a previous statement.  I have nothing at all against a fall season.  I do however firmly believe it should be the same as the spring....gobblers or birds with visible beards only.  That protects those mature hens and trains people to take more time in shot selection.  Safer and also more ethical in terms of flock shooting and potentially wounding birds.

With that said, I have no problem what so ever to letting young hunters, say under 16 take any turkey during the fall/winter.  That certainly makes it easier and posses no threat overall. 

One last thing..........I see no point in two birds in any one day in the spring either.  Again promotes the wrong kind of hunting.  It is in my opinion setting the wrong example.  But again....that's just me.  It was too damn hard for a group of folks to get us to where we are today to see turkey haters in WDFW do all they can to piss away a great resource for us and future generations.  Enough said.

[Tom Tamer]

Tamer...I just want to clarify a previous statement.  I have nothing at all against a fall season.  I do however firmly believe it should be the same as the spring....gobblers or birds with visible beards only.  That protects those mature hens and trains people to take more time in shot selection.  Safer and also more ethical in terms of flock shooting and potentially wounding birds.

With that said, I have no problem what so ever to letting young hunters, say under 16 take any turkey during the fall/winter.  That certainly makes it easier and posses no threat overall. 

One last thing..........I see no point in two birds in any one day in the spring either.  Again promotes the wrong kind of hunting.  It is in my opinion setting the wrong example.  But again....that's just me.  It was too damn hard for a group of folks to get us to where we are today to see turkey haters in WDFW do all they can to piss away a great resource for us and future generations.  Enough said.

I agree entirely , I may have misinterpreted or just read it too fast....