Good day for the Advanced Hunters.

[luvtohnt]

It's just amazing, lets kill a bunch of cows after they have been bred, and this is supposed to help the bull to cow ratio.Huh.  :dunno:How the heck do you or anybody else know if that cow was pregnant or not with one or possibly two calves and possibly could have two bull calves ready to increase the bull to cow ratio in the spring. If your going to harvest cows lets do it before the breeding season , not after which can possibly hurt that bull to cow ratio. And these Lent elk season's one after another into the areas of the wintering grounds are not great for the overall health of the herd either, wether they are trying to reduce the herd or damage control for agriculture, any disturbance affects all the elk and their health, that's why in the spring they have imposed restrictions upon shed hunting upon the wintering ranges , due to the fact of the overall health condition of the herds with the disturbance of people in their winter range. Hey guys and gals we the sportsmen/ hunters are the ones in this era that are going to have to make the move and be sensible about our decisions  for future generations , lets make common sense decisions and suggestions not only for hunting but to help build healthy populations of animals for decades to come.

So we better get rid of all the cow tags for ML and Modern guys if you want to go by that idea!!

If you have low breeding rate and you take out some cows regardless of wether they are pregnant you increase the chances of survival for the few calves that are born (reduced competition, and more food). It allows game managers to run closer to carrying capacity rather than exeding the carrying capacity and having calves die or predated on because they are weak.

The whole idea was developed to reduce the possibility of WDFW having to pay out to farmers for damaged fences and lost production from crops that were destroyed by the elk. It has worked, as the elk have changed their migration routes for the most part. This year the snow came fast and dumped a lot. They probably had to come down lower to make it to the winter range and they ended up crossing ag land and paid the ultimate price.  

Brandon

[tmike]

How the Colockum herd is managed is a great debate and I don't agree with some of the reasoning I've heard from game officials, but the don't shoot pregnant cows argument doesn't hold a lot of water. Most cows are bred in the September time frame. They are just as pregnant then and into all the following seasons as they are now. What about all the late cow hunts on the West side? Should we get rid of those also? Agree with it or not the 3911 is designed as a damage hunt. It's apples to oranges if whiteyes is comparing this to targeting big bulls throughout the unit if that was his intent. 

[RUTNBULL1]

I didn't say anything about getting rid of cow tags for Modern or Muzzy, you just  came to that conclusion. Yes we know that they put those tags in place for checks and balance's upon the herds, nobrainer. So if those tags for those weapon users aren't doing the job, issue more tags or have an earlier hunt not one later in the year affecting all the of the herd is what was in question. If I remember correctly that the WDFW doesn't issue crop or property damage funding within this state anymore unless they have reversed the take upon this situation as of late, but they will provide you with deprevation tags, besides most of these agriculture areas have been in place damn near as long as the elk have been migrating, do you think possibly they could have put up high fence by now after this many years.  

[tmike]

One argument a bio told me several years back was that there are 2 types of elk in the Colockum and Teanaway. The ones that migrate and the locals who drop their calves down low and stay low where the ag fields are. He said they were targeting those and that was one of the reasons they expanded the 3911 farther up to cover the lower Teanaway. I left that conversation scratching my head especially when in the same breath he said the overall herd numbers were down.

[RUTNBULL1]

Most cows are bred from the last week of September thru the third week of October. We all understand that the cows taken thru Muzzy and Modern are probably pregnant, and we understand that WDFW put these tag 's available to balance the herd, and reduce the chance elk populations fighting for winter and spring forage, and reduce the weak from the herd, point expressed Brandon, I still institute that having hunts late in the year when all elk are trying to survive is not the time to be chasing them down, harassing, then shooting any of them, that was my main point! Having a cow hunt before breeding season was just an option thrown up in the air for food for thought, I surely don't see any other ideas flying across this forum. Besides only 1/3 of all calves that are born survive, from all biologist reports. And possibly if we could obtain more calves for spring maybe, just maybe more bull calves would be apart of the survivors inwhich would eventually increase our bull to cow ratio. I would rather see 1/3 of the calves out of thousand be the numbers rather than a third out of one hundred.

[colockumelk]

So 9 hunters filled their tags that they bought and paid for. Each only harvesting 1 cow elk for their 1 tag. Which since they can only shoot 1 elk to fill their 1 tag they kept all the meat for themself. 

Exactly how does this compare to a group of 9 Yakamas shooting 2-3 bulls each that don't have tags that they bought and paid for? Especially in a unit with such a poor bull to cow ratio one would think you would be pissed about your fellow Yakamas being such poor stewards of conservation?

So please help me make the connection? Did the master hunters kill these elk on or near a feeding station? If so are they going to close the feeding station to public viewing to protect the elk from the master hunters? Is the impact of master hunters so great that they'll have to clocked roads in the wintering grounds to protect the elk and deer from the master hunters?  If so then I can see the connection because your tribe did that as well.

[ICEMAN]

Don't get suckered in by Whiteyes...  IMHO, he is simply trying to highlight any non tribal hunt which he feels makes non tribal guys look bad.

[Skyvalhunter]

It would take alot to look as bad as tribals

[tmike]

Most people I hope can see that a Troll started this thread. I agree that those 9 elk were at least taken LEGALLY and will be accounted for.

[high country]

MH, here, and I can tell you that from my expierience in 3911 (been hunting it for 7 years) it is working. I have progressivly seen less elk in the lowlands, which is the goal. the reduced boundary provides a great unmolested area for the elk.....but I could see future problems if more homes are built across the hwy. the reduced season kept quite a few from filling tags in 3911, thus reducing the pressure......good for elk, not so good for fences and crops. the problem with lookout is it is surrounded by private holdings. one section is not going to keep all those elk in it. there is going to be fences wrecked and damaged lands. the big plan is to train the elk into choosing winter range that will support them and not cause damage to private property. that is going to take a few generations of elk, but it appears to be happening to me......just slowly

[whiteeyes]

Iceman ---- just making a statement on here as everybody else does about the colockum elk herd. But of course you attack my statement as usual. And C-elk why is it that you attack  the Yakamas every time you comment on this forum?  Your last attack has nothing to do with my statement but of course you seem to turn things around as you seem to do very well and point the finger. If you want to attack  the Yakamas as you always seem to do, you are becoming more of the problem then the solution. This forum was getting some really good POSITIVE  input and info until iceman and colockum had to do what they do best. No pun intended, just sayin guys have a nice X-mas and Happy New Year.    

[JimmyHoffa]

It would take alot to look as bad as tribals

It's basically just laws and enforcement of them keeping the non-tribals from doing what gets posted about tribals.  I would speculate that non-tribals have the same percentage of d-bags as tribals.  My guess is that if we removed regulation of the non-tribal, we would not have this large group of self policing sportsmen that care about the future of the herds.  I'm guessing there would be large convoys of trucks with gun mounts on top chasing critters through the woods, shooting all year round, using fires to drive animals, spotlighting, hundreds of nets across rivers, etc.  Personally the worst things I've seen done to game weren't done by any tribe, and all were technically legal.

[SpotandStalk]

MH, here, and I can tell you that from my expierience in 3911 (been hunting it for 7 years) it is working. I have progressivly seen less elk in the lowlands, which is the goal. the reduced boundary provides a great unmolested area for the elk.....but I could see future problems if more homes are built across the hwy. the reduced season kept quite a few from filling tags in 3911, thus reducing the pressure......good for elk, not so good for fences and crops. the problem with lookout is it is surrounded by private holdings. one section is not going to keep all those elk in it. there is going to be fences wrecked and damaged lands. the big plan is to train the elk into choosing winter range that will support them and not cause damage to private property. that is going to take a few generations of elk, but it appears to be happening to me......just slowly

Well said and I agree.  I would still argue that the state owned rangeland east of Parke Creek and north of Vantage Hwy should be eliminated.  Reduce it to the Engineers land boundary, keeping a buffer of privately owned land that would be MH huntable between the winter range and the irrigated ag lands.

[Bob33]

There is consideration of implementing a road management system in that area.  That would restrict vehicle access and limit hunting access to foot traffic, etc. 

I can assure you that the 3911 area is closely and carefully monitored and reviewed constantly.  In the last two years the boundaries have changed, the seasons have changed, and the harvest limits have changed.  It is an evolving situation and you can expect more change.

Thank you to all the Master Hunters that have made this successful.  Thank you to the critics that suggest positive improvements.

[luvtohnt]

Most cows are bred from the last week of September thru the third week of October. We all understand that the cows taken thru Muzzy and Modern are probably pregnant, and we understand that WDFW put these tag 's available to balance the herd, and reduce the chance elk populations fighting for winter and spring forage, and reduce the weak from the herd, point expressed Brandon, I still institute that having hunts late in the year when all elk are trying to survive is not the time to be chasing them down, harassing, then shooting any of them, that was my main point! Having a cow hunt before breeding season was just an option thrown up in the air for food for thought, I surely don't see any other ideas flying across this forum. Besides only 1/3 of all calves that are born survive, from all biologist reports. And possibly if we could obtain more calves for spring maybe, just maybe more bull calves would be apart of the survivors inwhich would eventually increase our bull to cow ratio. I would rather see 1/3 of the calves out of thousand be the numbers rather than a third out of one hundred.

Just pointing out that shooting pregnant cows is irrelevant in this discussion. Yes the WDFW does not issue checks for damage done, but it has shut a lot of farmers up when the WDFW tells them your problem will be solved if you allow hunters on your property. There are still a couple of guys out there that just suck it up and deal with the damage because they do not want people on their property. As far as the 1/3 of calves surviving, this is most likely due to the fact that in modern game management they always try to populate over carrying capacity so there will be game for hunters. If they want higher survival rates all they have to do is manage for the winter carrying capacity and the survival rate would go up. However it would reduce allowable take, which is counter productive for an organization trying to generate revenue! As far as increasing bull to cow ratios that will never happen until there is more area allowed for the bulls to escape to, and in the colockum that simply equated to closing roads. But when you have local sportsmans clubs that hammer that issue to keep roads open for their own intrest rather than the intrest of the herd we will continue to have problems. Now I agree with your point about stressing the animals that is where hunter ETHICS come into play. If you can't harvest an elk without chasing them all over the unit (especially because it is winter time), then once they leave private property you have accomplished your goal, and your hunting should cease.  

Brandon