Leupold CDS Dials..Your experience???

[MDGrand]

Just ordered a Leupold VX R 4-12x40 with the CDS Dials..

What is your experience with the CDS dials? Accurate? Dependable?

[landcbeitner]

I would steer guys away from and drop compensating turret (one exception would be varmint hunting when speed is more important than a perfectly placed shot). They are calibrated for a given load at a given altitude and given atmospheric condition. In their advertising they say it's based on your "average" temp, "average" elevation, etc. If we're just "averaging" all these important factors, we can just as easily "average" ourselves into an all out miss or at least a poorly placed shot.

I will develop a load for my rifle and run that same load through, until I've literally ruined the barrel. I use drop charts... and just like a custom knob my chart is calibrated for a given conditon/elevation/temp etc.... well over the life of that rifle I will print myself probably over 50 different drop charts for different hunting trips, or shooting matches etc. I would say that unless you want to order 50 different knobs.... stick with standard MOA or Mil turrets and print yourself CONFIRMED drop charts for your various outings with your rifle. Many barrels will increase muzzle velocity around 150 rounds and MV's can fall off some as throat erosion changes the pressure curve.... again you would have to get new knobs (turrets/dials). If you are simply after an "easy" way to shoot long range and don't care to go through the work involved in testing and calibrating your charts to match actual drops, you probably shouldn't shoot far enough that you would have to hold over or dial a knob anyway. JMHO

[JohnVH]

CDS is awesome, I know 5 people with them, and my dial will be here any day (for my VX3L), so far up to 800 yards they are dead on.

[Firing Pin]

I was sceptical at first, but kept researching and pulled the trigger on one 3 months ago.  I ordered the custom turret and received it 3 weeks later.  I verified my sight in POI and replaced the turret cap an started my testing.  I was VERY surprised with the results, my POI was at 100yds and I checked at 200yds using the CDS and it was spot on, I then turned it up to the max allowed 650yds and then turned it back to 100yds.  I did this 6 -8 times, then shot to check my POI at 100yds to see if the scope would hold the POI.  Sure enough the holes in the target were within MOA of the initial shots.  Now they are custom to the bullet and specifics that you provide Leupold, bullet type, coeffiency, velocity, average temp, and average altitude.  But they figure in a range for the temps and altitude which work for my hunting scenarios.  If you change loads or bullets it will cost you $50.00 to get another for each differant load.  I am very happy with mine and will my hunting partners that have the Boone & Crockett system are jealous with the ease and accuracy of the CDS.

[MDGrand]

Thanks for the info landcbeitner!

Well, it sounds like you have the access to shoot long range quite often. I wish I did!

I totally hear what you are saying, and I appreciate your advice.

I think that the dials actually will be a pretty good fit for me though. I do not go through nearly as many rounds as you do, and for the most part, hunt in the same spots. Investing in about 3-4 dials to compensate for elevation should be good enough. Besides the intial info you supply Leupold does have elevation and temp in the equation. Most of my hunts consist of being around the 2K foot mark and at the same time of year which makes temp pretty predictable.

And for me, I am really looking for a reliable 600 yard system and no more. According to most ballistic charts I have seen.. out to 600 yards the difference in POI drop in inches is miminal from around sea leavel to 2K feet.. Over 600 yards and above 3K feet... it changes pretty dramatically... and in those circumstances I would not mind investing in a couple more dials, I guess.

Now.. if I was shooting in matches than you are absolutely right.. but for hunting purposes, a little error is allowed for a clean effective kill at least out to the ranges and elevations I am accustomed to shooting at.

We will see.. hopefully it works out. So far, I have not been satisified with cross referencing ballistic data with hold over marks offered in reticles such as the Nikon BDC or Leupold B&C, etc.

[BULLBLASTER]

+1 landc. I will also.agree with the last post about "good enough for hunting to 500-600 yards. I have a 7mag with a Kenton knob on a Burris scope and am very confident to 500 in different weather and.elevations. but I know how many clicks to.add or subtract. I am keeping a moa knob on my ultra because of.the differences of.elevation and weather. And use a ballistic calculator in my phone that is confirmed to 800+

[Fl0und3rz]

This is pretty handy for rough trajectories useful for hunting without CDS, if you just want some averages for a particular load. There are other more sophisticated utilities there, too.  This is nice because it has a library of bullets from which you can select your chosen bullet.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

[landcbeitner]

I'm sure Leupold uses an excellent ballistic program to calibrate the knobs so I wouldn't worry about that too much, just confirm (good info in = good info out)... If you practice enough you'll be fine to moderate ranges like you mentioned. I'm a huge Leupold Mk IV fan and I would guess they are similar or possibly the same internals?? Just practice, practice, practice.... I know of a good place you can get some good longer range practice that's about 2500 feet above sea level (send PM for specifics).

[Huntbear]

Brother put one on his .338 this year.  Did the sighting in, then ran it out to 550 yds. according to the rangefinder, and dialed the scope to same distance.  Two shots within 6 in. of each other on the horizontal.... both within 1 in. of center on the vertical...  Pretty darn good if you ask me.

[JohnVH]

custom turrett for my VX-3L just arrived 

[sirmissalot]

I would steer guys away from and drop compensating turret (one exception would be varmint hunting when speed is more important than a perfectly placed shot). They are calibrated for a given load at a given altitude and given atmospheric condition. In their advertising they say it's based on your "average" temp, "average" elevation, etc. If we're just "averaging" all these important factors, we can just as easily "average" ourselves into an all out miss or at least a poorly placed shot.

I will develop a load for my rifle and run that same load through, until I've literally ruined the barrel. I use drop charts... and just like a custom knob my chart is calibrated for a given conditon/elevation/temp etc.... well over the life of that rifle I will print myself probably over 50 different drop charts for different hunting trips, or shooting matches etc. I would say that unless you want to order 50 different knobs.... stick with standard MOA or Mil turrets and print yourself CONFIRMED drop charts for your various outings with your rifle. Many barrels will increase muzzle velocity around 150 rounds and MV's can fall off some as throat erosion changes the pressure curve.... again you would have to get new knobs (turrets/dials). If you are simply after an "easy" way to shoot long range and don't care to go through the work involved in testing and calibrating your charts to match actual drops, you probably shouldn't shoot far enough that you would have to hold over or dial a knob anyway. JMHO

Well said. People underestimate how complicated things get when you're shooting long range. TV shows like Best of the West aren't helping. Shooting 1,000 yards at a live animal isn't easy, I don't care if you have a Huskemaw scope and a 1/2 MOA rifle.

[deleted BGS]

How would you sight your gun in? You sight it in before you get the cds dial? Do the dials screw on to the elevation dial? Can you take it off to sight it in?

[JohnVH]

you can sight it in before or after, doesnt matter, it just has yardage on it that you tell them to start at.  Its just a dial calibrated to your load.

[JPhelps]

Its just a dial calibrated to your load.

At a certain elevation, certain temperature, humidity and  pressure.

[JohnVH]

yep, so figure out the average of the places you go to, and order it that way. works great!

[JPhelps]

Go ahead and do what you want to.  It is not good advice though.

I try and talk people out of the CDS and just have Leupold install an M1 turret (1/4" MOA).  This way you can evaluate the environmental conditions and dial up EXACTLY the right MOA (drop).

[sirmissalot]

 

I agree. Then use one of those awesome ballistic apps on your phone and you are dialed in 

[Bob33]

I agree. Then use one of those awesome ballistic apps on your phone and you are dialed in 

...and a barometer, an altimeter, a hygrometer, a thermometer, and the skill to use them.  I tend to agree that MOA click turrets and drop charts are great for those with the expertise to create and use them.  For distances up to 600 yards (OP's max), a properly calibrated CDS turret should work fine for normal big game use.

[JPhelps]

 

Bob I agree with you about about the CDS being fine to 600 yds in most conditions.  I also believe this is what tends to give "long range" hunting a black eye.

My own opinion is if you are not willing to invest the time in learning how to correctly shoot long range, than don't shoot.  How many guys strap on a CDS without learning how to read/dope for wind, understand the difference of shooting up or down hill, etc...

I also have a feeling that few will spend a lot of time at a range practicing at 600 yds and making sure that them/gun can shoot the necessary group to cleanly harvest game (around 1 MOA at that range). 

[Bob33]

Bob I agree with you about about the CDS being fine to 600 yds in most conditions.  I also believe this is what tends to give "long range" hunting a black eye.

My own opinion is if you are not willing to invest the time in learning how to correctly shoot long range, than don't shoot.  How many guys strap on a CDS without learning how to read/dope for wind, understand the difference of shooting up or down hill, etc...

I also have a feeling that few will spend a lot of time at a range practicing at 600 yds and making sure that them/gun can shoot 1 moa groups.

You are correct.  There are far too many who believe you can buy "600 yard guns",  etc.  The skill necessary to ethically shoot at live game at distances over 300 to 400 yards cannot be bought; it must be earned.

[hunter105]

just bought a new rifle and put a leupold 3.5X10 CDS scope on it.  Once sighted in with the right cartridge I will order my turrett.  Then I will practice out to a comfortable range 500 to 600 yards.  The CDS is nothing more than another tool to help in proper shooting.  If you know how to use the tool it can be invaluable, if you don't know how to use it you will be disapointed.

[sirmissalot]

You are correct.  There are far too many who believe you can buy "600 yard guns",  etc.  The skill necessary to ethically shoot at live game at distances over 300 to 400 yards cannot be bought; it must be earned.
[/quote]

Well said Bob. Its frustrating to me watching some TV shows where they are telling viewers long range hunting is easy with this gun, and even easier with this scope (I'm sure most of us know which show I'm talking about). Its amazing to me how many people now think a 300 yard shot is easy. Its easy for the gun, but no so easy for the shooter (without practice).

[Bob33]

Its frustrating to me watching some TV shows where they are telling viewers long range hunting is easy with this gun, and even easier with this scope (I'm sure most of us know which show I'm talking about).

I happened to meet the videographer for one of those long range TV shows in Wyoming a few years back.  I asked him how many misses and cripples were cut from the shows.  He hung his head and said "you don't want to know".  He ended up resigning because of all the unethical shots being taken, and the misrepresentation of how a scope could make shooting at those distances easy for anyone.

Anyone that believes it is ethical should try this quiz: how much does your bullet drop between 800 and 825 yards?  Can you accurately range an animal at 800 yards  (versus 775 or 825, versus the bush in front of or behind the animal, etc.)? How much difference does a 2 mph miscalculation in wind speed make at 800 yards?  There are very few hunters with the requisite skills to take ethical shots at these distances.  I define ethical as placing the first shot in a vital area 95% of the time, and being able to legally find and retrieve the dead animal.

[JohnVH]

I know alot of people with CDS's, they work flawlessly if you give them the right info, if you want to sit on a hill size trying to figure out how many clicks to give your scope with your cell phone, go for it.  A MOA scope wont help anyone if they cant shoot that well to begin with anyway, nothing helps that.

here is a vid we took, I didnt have my CDS on yet so was trying to guesstimate 10' of drop, but his CDS hit dead center first shot.

list=UULqx43LM26ksQ_THrEZ7AcQ&index=3&feature=plcp

[JPhelps]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  There is a reason why almost all of the long range shooters run MOA turrets though.

What do you do if the weather or elevation is different from what was made for the turret?  I ran some quick numbers through my ballistics program and came up with this @ 800 yds.  I assumed a 168 gr bullet @ 3000 fps with a G7 B.C. of .316.  A bullet with less of a B.C. will even be a bigger spread:

AT 80* and 24.0 inHg (6000 ft.)
800 yds = Drop of -130.07" or 15.53 MOA
825 yds = Drop of -140.50" or 16.27 MOA

AT 30* and 29.92 inHg (sea level)
800 yds = Drop of -145.08" or 17.32 MOA
825 yds = Drop of -157.27" or 18.21 MOA

How do you go back and forth between yardage and Moa and then back to yardage to make any changes.  Lets say you were only going to hunt at one elevation and just the weather would change the 50 degrees.  There will be a miscalculation on your turret of 6".  I understand you would probably have your turret made for a temp in the middle, but these temps are very realistic if you are going to use this rifle from August bear season to general deer in our state (most likely be hotter and colder).

Lets say we compound this error with a gun that can only shoot 1 MOA.  That means there is 8" of error in the gun/shooter and 6" of error in the turret for a 14" impact from the aim point.

Another issue is the cosine value for shooting up or down but with todays range finders with true horizontal distance this is easily avoided.

All I am saying is that in my example there is over a 30" difference (and this is a premier bullet for long range hunting)  between 25 yards with the hunting conditions I have stated.

All I am saying is that before people pick up a gun/scope combo with a CDS they need to know about all the variables before clicking around with their scope and shooting, especially before an animal is introduced.

I hunt or plan to hunt all over the place from Sea Level in the Willapa Hills to above 12,000 ft. in Colorado.  I will never need another turret.  Also to open a bigger can of worms how do you account for the 40" of drift with a full value 10mph wind at these ranges?

[JohnVH]

800 was screwing around, I wouldnt try to take a deer or anything that far, we were curious how close it was.  Yes, we average the temps, alt, etc for the places we hunt. At shorter distances the difference is very little, and we know where it is going to hit for where we are at the time.  Its all good, what works great for us may not work great for you.

[JPhelps]

I do have one more question 

Why do you choose the CDS over a MOA w/ a drop chart that can be made to more specifically fit the shooting situation?

[elkslayer069]

I have a couple questions about the CDS. Does the CDS have a stop for not turning past your zero? And the other is does the CDS have adjustment covers?

[deleted BGS]

I have a couple questions about the CDS. Does the CDS have a stop for not turning past your zero? And the other is does the CDS have adjustment covers?

yes and yes

[norsepeak]

If you take the time and effort to set them up properly and practice with them, they work great.  The most important part is to verify you data on the range BEFORE you have them made so you know they are correct.

[Bob33]

I have a couple questions about the CDS. Does the CDS have a stop for not turning past your zero? And the other is does the CDS have adjustment covers?

yes and yes

No adjustment covers on mine; none per Leupold
 http://www.leupold.com/CDS/
 
 CDS ADVANTAGES Quickly dial in elevationto differentsight-inranges. Swap dials quickly by loosening set screws. Match dials with specific loads for maximum accuracy. Precision ¼-MOA click increment adjustment. No adjustment covers to lose.

[elkslayer069]

So no lock from bumping it off your "100 yard" zero then sound like a west side disaster waiting to happen

[JohnVH]

I do have one more question 

Why do you choose the CDS over a MOA w/ a drop chart that can be made to more specifically fit the shooting situation?

speed and simplicity, when hunting you dont always have alot of time to calculate stuff out.

[JohnVH]

So no lock from bumping it off your "100 yard" zero then sound like a west side disaster waiting to happen

Dial has yardage numbers on it, so a quick glance tells you where zero is at every time

[Bob33]

So no lock from bumping it off your "100 yard" zero then sound like a west side disaster waiting to happen

It can happen.  It has happened to me.  Twice.  Very disappointing. I have MOA clicks on my CDS scope, but I suspect the tension is the same.  I stuck a little piece of duct tape on mine to keep it in place.  Funky but it works.