Post by: Snapshot on April 06, 2014, 01:38:47 PM
I believe the reason we lost the Sept 8-21 elk season was that one wealthy hunter caught the ear of the people who influenced the season setting process by, 1) pointing out that there were permit-dollars to be made if they’d offer Modern Firearms tag holders a chance to hunt a rutting bull, and, 2) suggesting that bowhunters were taking an inequitable proportion of Mature bull elk. I believe the second claim was contrived as a means of achieving the goal of rifle hunting during the rut.
It is easy to imagine that any idea promising increased revenues was going to gain traction and make the decision-makers take notice. What isn’t so easy to imagine is why our biologist would go against widely accepted elk biology and skew the data to support the claim of inequity in mature bull harvest. [I believe it was because he was told to do so by his boss or his bosses.]
Please understand that the WDFW’s own Game Management Plan has for at least the past 18 years said, “Mature bulls are defined as being older than four years, which is usually equated to having antlers with at least six tines on one side.” [I write 18 years because I’ve only been referencing the Plan for that long.]
Here was the ruse: Because the bull harvest statistics up to and including 2007 did not show that bowhunters were taking more than their share of mature bulls (which is what the influential wealthy hunter claimed), the numbers were fudged to make it look like bowhunters were taking more than their share. This was done by changing (only for the sake of the Season Setting Process) the definition of a Mature bull to include bulls with at least five tines on at least one side.
That is right…for the purpose of selling the Game Commission on the idea of allowing Modern Firearms permits during the peak of the rut, the Department included the five point bulls in the equations. [Ask an elk biologist how old an elk has to be to have five points on one side and the answer will be “2-1/2 years with good genetics and feed.”] Including the raghorns changed the results and so what the Commission saw was that bowhunters were taking more than their share of Mature bulls. Under the rules of Resource Allocation the Commission was compelled to accept the Department’s recommendation to, 1) create a new Modern Firearms tag permit for hunting bulls with a rifle during the third week of September, and, 2) to make adjustments to the archery season timing.
One longstanding argument against allowing modern firearms hunters in the woods during archery season was bowhunter safety concerns. This argument was held up alongside their data showing bowhunters taking too many mature bulls and the stage was set.
The Department couldn’t sell the dates of Sept 1-14 like it was prior to 1999-2001 because the Commission remembered bowhunters’ reasons for wanting to get away from that time slot: 1) forest overcrowding due to the Labor Day holiday, and, 2) the warmer weather and the fire dangers/meat loss issues that came along with that. And so someone came up with the idea of a floating start with season opening the Tuesday after Labor Day. That was latched onto like a piglet to a teat and to rub salt into the wound they also chopped a day off the season length. All because someone said bowhunters were too good at taking mature bulls.
A goal of mine prior to the 2008-10 season setting process was to gather mature bull harvest data to find out exactly what effect, if any, the changing of the dates had on the harvesting of mature bulls. I saw the 2008 data and no effect was evident there. But then some life changes and distractions kept me from working on that goal. I wonder, has anyone compiled the mature bull harvest data from 2009-2013? If only six point or better bulls, as per the Game Management Plan, were compared I believe we’d be right on track in our mature bull harvest and we could shoot down the argument that got us to where we are now. And maybe in doing so we’d have some justification for getting back to the dates of Sept 8-21.
Post by: skidynastar33 on April 06, 2014, 02:20:46 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on April 06, 2014, 02:24:12 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 06, 2014, 02:41:57 PM
For 2015 why not push for the 2nd sat of Sept to Oct 1st. and combine AR w ML into a PW season? No compounds and no inlines. True Primitive Weapons. Long bows and recurves only and sidelock muzzies limited to round ball only. Relegate the modern compounds and inlines to the MF slot. :tup:
I really cannot feature this happening. Nice thought though.
Post by: bobcat on April 06, 2014, 03:33:45 PM
For 2015 why not push for the 2nd sat of Sept to Oct 1st. and combine AR w ML into a PW season? No compounds and no inlines. True Primitive Weapons. Long bows and recurves only and sidelock muzzies limited to round ball only. Relegate the modern compounds and inlines to the MF slot. :tup:
I really cannot feature this happening. Nice thought though.
Yeah, too many people with money invested in compound bows and inline muzzleloaders. They would never do away with those seasons. I could see doing away with the general seasons though, and make all elk huning by permit only.
Post by: kentrek on April 06, 2014, 04:08:28 PM
For 2015 why not push for the 2nd sat of Sept to Oct 1st. and combine AR w ML into a PW season? No compounds and no inlines. True Primitive Weapons. Long bows and recurves only and sidelock muzzies limited to round ball only. Relegate the modern compounds and inlines to the MF slot. :tup:
I really cannot feature this happening. Nice thought though.
Yeah, too many people with money invested in compound bows and inline muzzleloaders. They would never do away with those seasons. I could see doing away with the general seasons though, and make all elk huning by permit only.
Dont kill what opportunity we have left...
Post by: washelkhunter on April 06, 2014, 08:21:42 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 06, 2014, 09:28:17 PM
What? You would'nt give up your compound for the op'ty to hunt in the middle of the rut and have a season that runs for 19 days at the best time of the year? And its deer season too!
I'm not saying I wouldn't rather hunt that time frame with a flintlock than my compound with the current seasons but I'm trying to look at what would realistically happen and that doesn't fit the bill in my opinion.
Post by: huntnphool on April 06, 2014, 09:45:54 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on April 06, 2014, 10:07:40 PM
What? You would'nt give up your compound for the op'ty to hunt in the middle of the rut and have a season that runs for 19 days at the best time of the year? And its deer season too!
[/quote
I'm not saying I wouldn't rather hunt that time frame with a flintlock than my compound with the current seasons but I'm trying to look at what would realistically happen and that doesn't fit the bill in my opinion.
I think its sellable, and sidelock includes no: 11 percussion caps.
Post by: elk247 on April 06, 2014, 10:21:32 PM
For 2015 why not push for the 2nd sat of Sept to Oct 1st. and combine AR w ML into a PW season? No compounds and no inlines. True Primitive Weapons. Long bows and recurves only and sidelock muzzies limited to round ball only. Relegate the modern compounds and inlines to the MF slot. :tup:I was with you until you gave the inline and compound guys the shaft. An exclusive traditional peak rut hunt would be great.
Post by: washelkhunter on April 06, 2014, 11:19:18 PM
Post by: huntnphool on April 07, 2014, 11:29:17 AM
Mod compounds and muzzies today have no compare with what the original intent of the primitive season was all about. These weapons have outpaced their perceived category.What year did the "primitive weapon" categories begin and what was "perceived" by WF&G?
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 07, 2014, 11:41:36 AM
Post by: Broken Arrow on April 07, 2014, 11:55:42 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 07, 2014, 11:58:54 AM
what about us atlatl and spear hunters, why not give us the whole month... :bash:
Yeah they should be able to hunt June-August. :chuckle: I also found a rather jagged rock yesterday that is likely similar to what my grandfather's ancestors probably used to brain a fawn with back in the first centurty.
I find it interesting that everytime somebody comes up with "The Perfect Solution" that it usually ends up being more complicated and convoluted than what is already in place. :twocents:
Post by: elk247 on April 08, 2014, 12:32:14 AM
I didnt give them the shaft. Mod compounds and muzzies today have no compare with what the original intent of the primitive season was all about. These weapons have outpaced their perceived category.I agree a traditional season would be cool. But I wouldn't trade the archery and muzzle loader season away for the opportunity. In all reality you can hunt the pre-peak rut or post-peak rut now with a muzzle loader or archery gear. Give or take a week. Archery the first week of october is the next best as thing to late september. The shaft I was referring to is lumping the compound and inline guys in with the rifle hunters. Bowhunters would never have a chance. Try and put the sneek on an animal wearing blaze orange only to have a rifle hunter shoot over your head from 700 yards away? No thanks. We would be bird dogs with a bow.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 08, 2014, 05:50:08 AM
What? You would'nt give up your compound for the op'ty to hunt in the middle of the rut and have a season that runs for 19 days at the best time of the year? And its deer season too!
Can we ban a muzzleloader from the WSB forum?
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Post by: dreamingbig on April 08, 2014, 05:54:30 AM
On another thread the topic of early Elk Season timing is proving to be on the minds of many. I think we need to understand how we got to where we are in order to find our way back.
I believe the reason we lost the Sept 8-21 elk season was that one wealthy hunter caught the ear of the people who influenced the season setting process by, 1) pointing out that there were permit-dollars to be made if they’d offer Modern Firearms tag holders a chance to hunt a rutting bull, and, 2) suggesting that bowhunters were taking an inequitable proportion of Mature bull elk. I believe the second claim was contrived as a means of achieving the goal of rifle hunting during the rut.
It is easy to imagine that any idea promising increased revenues was going to gain traction and make the decision-makers take notice. What isn’t so easy to imagine is why our biologist would go against widely accepted elk biology and skew the data to support the claim of inequity in mature bull harvest. [I believe it was because he was told to do so by his boss or his bosses.]
Please understand that the WDFW’s own Game Management Plan has for at least the past 18 years said, “Mature bulls are defined as being older than four years, which is usually equated to having antlers with at least six tines on one side.” [I write 18 years because I’ve only been referencing the Plan for that long.]
Here was the ruse: Because the bull harvest statistics up to and including 2007 did not show that bowhunters were taking more than their share of mature bulls (which is what the influential wealthy hunter claimed), the numbers were fudged to make it look like bowhunters were taking more than their share. This was done by changing (only for the sake of the Season Setting Process) the definition of a Mature bull to include bulls with at least five tines on at least one side.
That is right…for the purpose of selling the Game Commission on the idea of allowing Modern Firearms permits during the peak of the rut, the Department included the five point bulls in the equations. [Ask an elk biologist how old an elk has to be to have five points on one side and the answer will be “2-1/2 years with good genetics and feed.”] Including the raghorns changed the results and so what the Commission saw was that bowhunters were taking more than their share of Mature bulls. Under the rules of Resource Allocation the Commission was compelled to accept the Department’s recommendation to, 1) create a new Modern Firearms tag permit for hunting bulls with a rifle during the third week of September, and, 2) to make adjustments to the archery season timing.
One longstanding argument against allowing modern firearms hunters in the woods during archery season was bowhunter safety concerns. This argument was held up alongside their data showing bowhunters taking too many mature bulls and the stage was set.
The Department couldn’t sell the dates of Sept 1-14 like it was prior to 1999-2001 because the Commission remembered bowhunters’ reasons for wanting to get away from that time slot: 1) forest overcrowding due to the Labor Day holiday, and, 2) the warmer weather and the fire dangers/meat loss issues that came along with that. And so someone came up with the idea of a floating start with season opening the Tuesday after Labor Day. That was latched onto like a piglet to a teat and to rub salt into the wound they also chopped a day off the season length. All because someone said bowhunters were too good at taking mature bulls.
A goal of mine prior to the 2008-10 season setting process was to gather mature bull harvest data to find out exactly what effect, if any, the changing of the dates had on the harvesting of mature bulls. I saw the 2008 data and no effect was evident there. But then some life changes and distractions kept me from working on that goal. I wonder, has anyone compiled the mature bull harvest data from 2009-2013? If only six point or better bulls, as per the Game Management Plan, were compared I believe we’d be right on track in our mature bull harvest and we could shoot down the argument that got us to where we are now. And maybe in doing so we’d have some justification for getting back to the dates of Sept 8-21.
This is spot on! Money talks. What I don't get is how they figure the 8th to 21st affected their ability to have a few rut hunts for MF from the 22nd to 30th time slot.
To add insult, this year they increased the one permit rut hunts to two in most units which I believe is just the start. Before long it will be ten then 25. Why? Easy, more money. They don't care about equality. If they did then the rut hunt would be available for all user groups to apply.
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Post by: D-Rock425 on April 08, 2014, 08:48:04 AM
Next year it will be the 8 - 20. Tues after Labor Day opening is what's it has always been since I started. (7years) not sure what it was before.it has not been this way for 7 years.
Post by: motg9_6 on April 08, 2014, 10:45:11 AM
Post by: washelkhunter on April 08, 2014, 10:51:20 AM
What? You would'nt give up your compound for the op'ty to hunt in the middle of the rut and have a season that runs for 19 days at the best time of the year? And its deer season too!
Can we ban a muzzleloader from the WSB forum?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No you can't. I am archer as well.
Post by: huntnphool on April 08, 2014, 10:53:16 AM
Washington State Bowhunters, the section this thread is located in! ;)What? You would'nt give up your compound for the op'ty to hunt in the middle of the rut and have a season that runs for 19 days at the best time of the year? And its deer season too!
Can we ban a muzzleloader from the WSB forum?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What's WSB?
Post by: dreamingbig on April 08, 2014, 10:54:01 AM
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Post by: skidynastar33 on April 08, 2014, 11:17:33 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 08, 2014, 12:48:38 PM
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Post by: huntnphool on April 08, 2014, 12:52:14 PM
Yep, the last two 3 yr packages have been the tues after Labor Day start.
Which sees it starting the 8th again in 2015.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 08, 2014, 01:14:32 PM
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Post by: huntnphool on April 08, 2014, 02:40:54 PM
I don't want to settle for once every 7 years.
The east side modern deer guys have it just as bad, likely worse, I wouldn't complain too much.
Post by: et1702 on April 08, 2014, 02:54:33 PM
ET
Post by: bobcat on April 08, 2014, 02:57:26 PM
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Post by: huntnphool on April 08, 2014, 02:59:56 PM
Second Saturday might work if it was only a 9 day season. 14 days would put it too far into the rut, and also would conflict with some modern firearm permit hunts.
+1
Post by: et1702 on April 08, 2014, 03:09:52 PM
Second Saturday might work if it was only a 9 day season. 14 days would put it too far into the rut, and also would conflict with some modern firearm permit hunts.
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As I've mentioned previously, who cares if there are one or two rifle rut tag holders out there w/us. There are already bear hunters and bird hunters out there now. Plus, some years it would go deeper into the rut (like 2014) and then seven years out it would start on the 8th.
ET
Post by: dreamingbig on April 08, 2014, 03:15:22 PM
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Post by: bobcat on April 08, 2014, 03:15:57 PM
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Post by: huntnphool on April 08, 2014, 03:17:35 PM
Why should archery hunters be afforded a longer season than other user groups?Second Saturday might work if it was only a 9 day season. 14 days would put it too far into the rut, and also would conflict with some modern firearm permit hunts.
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As I've mentioned previously, who cares if there are one or two rifle rut tag holders out there w/us. There are already bear hunters and bird hunters out there now.
ET
Post by: et1702 on April 08, 2014, 03:19:13 PM
We don't wear orange now, with bear and bird hunters in the woods with us. Why would one or two more hunters matter. Doesn't make sense.
Post by: et1702 on April 08, 2014, 03:22:07 PM
Why should archery hunters be afforded a longer season than other user groups?Second Saturday might work if it was only a 9 day season. 14 days would put it too far into the rut, and also would conflict with some modern firearm permit hunts.
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As I've mentioned previously, who cares if there are one or two rifle rut tag holders out there w/us. There are already bear hunters and bird hunters out there now.
ET
Ok, make it 13 days, as it is now. I'm not going to get dragged into the debate about archery vs. ML vs. rifle. But, there is a good reason why they progress from most primitive to modern.
ET
Post by: dreamingbig on April 08, 2014, 04:09:18 PM
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Post by: Rainier10 on April 08, 2014, 04:18:46 PM
It should be just a set start date, 8-20 and 8-21 would be great but at this point I would love to just see the set date with the number of days we have, 13.
Post by: huntnphool on April 08, 2014, 04:22:55 PM
I will. Archery hunters should because it is flat out harder. Don't agree? Then make the switch to archery and see for yourself.
So what if its harder, how does that justify archery hunters having more opportunity? Its not ML and modern hunters problem that you are not as successful.
And FYI I do hunt archery!
Post by: snowpack on April 08, 2014, 04:26:35 PM
I will. Archery hunters should because it is flat out harder. Don't agree? Then make the switch to archery and see for yourself.I don't think that is necessarily an accurate comparison. If hunting the exact same dates with weapon choice, sure. But Sept 8-21 with a bow vs Nov 8-20 with a rifle....I think it is in favor of the bow.
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Post by: dreamingbig on April 08, 2014, 04:29:47 PM
I will. Archery hunters should because it is flat out harder. Don't agree? Then make the switch to archery and see for yourself.
So what if its harder, how does that justify archery hunters having more opportunity? Its not ML and modern hunters problem that you are not as successful.
And FYI I do hunt archery!
The WDFW says they care. All they preach is equal success rates. I didn't say it was too hard for me but it is harder avg to avg.
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Post by: Snapshot on April 08, 2014, 08:06:45 PM
What? You would'nt give up your compound for the op'ty to hunt in the middle of the rut and have a season that runs for 19 days at the best time of the year? And its deer season too!
Can we ban a muzzleloader from the WSB forum?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
lol...too funny.
Post by: Snapshot on April 08, 2014, 08:14:11 PM
I didnt give them the shaft. Mod compounds and muzzies today have no compare with what the original intent of the primitive season was all about. These weapons have outpaced their perceived category.True, the weapons have evolved well beyond what they were when the separate seasons were first created. Fifteen years ago I wouldn't have said this...but I think I might live long enough to see "Primitive Weapons Only" at some level; maybe units only, or maybe seasons...time will tell.
Post by: Snapshot on April 08, 2014, 08:25:25 PM
Apples to oranges. We got screwed and I won't stop until we return to our 2006-2008 seasons.
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:yeah:
Post by: huntnphool on April 08, 2014, 08:36:05 PM
My Mathews bow flings arrows at 300 fps and is more than 15 years old. Todays bows don't make the difference to justify a "primitive weapon" "too much technology", "end of hunting" argument for a additional "allocation", based on their "evolution" :chuckle:I didnt give them the shaft. Mod compounds and muzzies today have no compare with what the original intent of the primitive season was all about. These weapons have outpaced their perceived category.True, the weapons have evolved well beyond what they were when the separate seasons were first created. Fifteen years ago I wouldn't have said this...but I think I might live long enough to see "Primitive Weapons Only" at some level; maybe units only, or maybe seasons...time will tell.
Just as your Luminok scare tactics and fear mongering comments didn't see a resulting slaughter of animals with their use last year. :chuckle:
You want longer seasons or your own personal season, fine, I can understand that. Lets not make up another bunch of BS excuses of what you "think" the original intention of seperate seasons and technologies role in those seasons was "meant" to play. :hello:
Post by: Snapshot on April 08, 2014, 08:54:26 PM
But this thread is about how to get the elk seasons back to September 8-21. Can you keep those thoughts flowing? This summer the WDFW will start fleshing out the recommendations for the 2015-17 package and we need to have our ducks lined up by the Fall of this year.
Post by: hogslayer on April 08, 2014, 09:31:48 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on April 08, 2014, 09:37:49 PM
My Mathews bow flings arrows at 300 fps and is more than 15 years old. Todays bows don't make the difference to justify a "primitive weapon" "too much technology", "end of hunting" argument for a additional "allocation", based on their "evolution" :chuckle:I didnt give them the shaft. Mod compounds and muzzies today have no compare with what the original intent of the primitive season was all about. These weapons have outpaced their perceived category.True, the weapons have evolved well beyond what they were when the separate seasons were first created. Fifteen years ago I wouldn't have said this...but I think I might live long enough to see "Primitive Weapons Only" at some level; maybe units only, or maybe seasons...time will tell.
Just as your Luminok scare tactics and fear mongering comments didn't see a resulting slaughter of animals with their use last year. :chuckle:
You want longer seasons or your own personal season, fine, I can understand that. Lets not make up another bunch of BS excuses of what you "think" the original intention of seperate seasons and technologies role in those seasons was "meant" to play. :hello:
Well I was never against luminox nor did I ever comment negatively about them. I actually think they're a great asset for the modern archer. Sure I'd like to have a longer season, who would'nt? My premise is based in the reality that the available technology has advanced far beyond what can even be remotely considered primitive. Lets face it the compounds of today are anything but. You might be lucky to have wood scales on the grip but thats it; everything else is engineered composites and exotic metals. You modern myopic archers are the ones BSing yourselves. My desire to get back to a primitive weapons only season is valid and I think would be very desirable for many. Longbows, wood recurves and sidelock muzzies all in one 3 week season. I'm simply reacting to the realities today. Compound bow shots at ballons at 300 yards and making them. Also many here brag on shooting and killing animals at 80-100 yards, my muzzy is really only effective out 100 yds.
Post by: huntnphool on April 08, 2014, 09:53:26 PM
But this thread is about how to get the elk seasons back to September 8-21. Can you keep those thoughts flowing?
Absolutely, lets keep it real though and leave the fear mongering out of it. :tup:
Incidentally, I see nothing wrong with the same season setting that they came up with 8 years ago. Again, archers have nothing to whine about when it comes to seasons compared to the other user groups, and thats coming from someone that purchases a archery tag every year. :twocents:
Post by: Gamblin Guy on April 08, 2014, 10:31:23 PM
I don't post much and generally don't disagree much with what you post but you have to consider that early archery elk/deer is the only season that has to deal with the last major camping weekend of the year either during or just prior to the opener. I've sat in camp waiting for elk season to open on the Tuesday after, and even back when they opened us on the 1st and seen all kinds of stuff that the muzzy guys and the modern guys don't have to put up with.
I agree that the muzzy and rifle seasons suck too but that's because in this state its all about $$$.
Bottom line, as least as far as I can tell, is that the WDFW doesn't care about anything but generating revenue and that is the number one priority. They couldnt care less about the individual user groups, it's all about how much money they can make by selling special permits or whatever.
I would venture to guess that archery wont open on the 8th in 2015 as has been stated, just wait and see...they will come up with some excuse for opening archery elk earlier and the stick flingers will get screwed again.
I've hunted archery for elk in this state since 1987 and every year it gets harder and harder for me to buy a license and tag.
Post by: huntnphool on April 08, 2014, 10:34:44 PM
phool,
I don't post much and generally don't disagree much with what you post but you have to consider that early archery elk/deer is the only season that has to deal with the last major camping weekend of the year either during or just prior to the opener. I've sat in camp waiting for elk season to open on the Tuesday after, and even back when they opened us on the 1st and seen all kinds of stuff that the muzzy guys and the modern guys don't have to put up with.
I agree that the muzzy and rifle seasons suck too but that's because in this state its all about $$$.
Bottom line, as least as far as I can tell, is that the WDFW doesn't care about anything but generating revenue and that is the number one priority. They couldnt care less about the individual user groups, it's all about how much money they can make by selling special permits or whatever.
I would venture to guess that archery wont open on the 8th in 2015 as has been stated, just wait and see...they will come up with some excuse for opening archery elk earlier and the stick flingers will get screwed again.
I've hunted archery for elk in this state since 1987 and every year it gets harder and harder for me to buy a license and tag.
Not sure where we disagree, I agree with pretty much everything you said. :dunno:
Post by: bobcat on April 08, 2014, 11:06:28 PM
Post by: huntnphool on April 08, 2014, 11:09:04 PM
I'll bet money that elk season will open no earlier than the 8th in 2015. It's already been decided that they don't want archery elk season to be open during Labor Day weekend, so I sure don't see that changing.I agree, the real question is will it run through the 21st?
I could see WDFW playing games and start the season on the 5th and end it on the 20th, then play up the fact that they increased the number of days in the field for us.
Post by: bobcat on April 08, 2014, 11:17:32 PM
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Post by: hughjorgan on April 08, 2014, 11:34:04 PM
Post by: elk247 on April 09, 2014, 12:13:46 AM
Just make it start on the second Saturday of Sept each year and run for 14 days. This means it would end on a Friday and would not interfere with the next user group that would/could start on Saturday. Still a floating start date, but much better dates to hunt each year.I would take this! But it will be difficult to sneak past the state biologists. :chuckle: The best option seems to be a fixed date. A 13-14 day season starting on the 8-9th seems more realistic. Also gives bulls a couple weeks to get 'er done before the smoke poles start. This still puts us in the woods into the 3rd week of September.
ET
Post by: huntnphool on April 09, 2014, 09:27:58 AM
:chuckle: Of course you would take that, so would every other archery guy. :chuckle:Just make it start on the second Saturday of Sept each year and run for 14 days. This means it would end on a Friday and would not interfere with the next user group that would/could start on Saturday. Still a floating start date, but much better dates to hunt each year.I would take this! But it will be difficult to sneak past the state biologists. The best option seems to be a fixed date. A 13-14 day season starting on the 8-9th seems more realistic.
ET
You guys just don't get it, and this is not directed solely at you 247, but at everyone that's making this request. When is the best time for archers to be in the woods, early September or late September? Although someone will argue for the sake of arguing, most here will agree it's later. Don't you guys think WDFW know this? Do you really think you can "sneak past" them? :chuckle:
They will do whatever they can to back the start time up, while at the same time back the end time up as well, the latter being the highest priority to them. It will either come with "balance" or to protect the dept. from outrage by adding additional days on the front end, or they will simply remove some of those ending days and shorten the season, precedent has already been set.
Post by: et1702 on April 09, 2014, 12:17:49 PM
Why are we worried about sneaking anything past a state biologist? There is no science that says a later start date or longer season will increase the success rate or harvest rate...NONE. Look at other states that have a month long season. On average, success rates are the same as they are here!
The dates were changed because another user group complained about some undocumented and/or percieved advantage an archer might have over their user group. Not true, no science to back it up! The only way harvest would go up is if there were more archers. If there were more archers, there would be less ML or less rifle hunters. Therefore, harvest overall would still be about the same.
There is no credible science behnd the assumption that moving the dates later in the month will cause anything different to happen.
ET
Post by: elk247 on April 09, 2014, 12:31:37 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 09, 2014, 12:33:50 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 09, 2014, 12:42:30 PM
I don't care. I can scare elk whenever the season starts and ends. I'm damned good at it.
:yeah: They hate the way I smell all month long :chuckle:
Post by: huntnphool on April 09, 2014, 01:37:26 PM
I don't care. I can scare elk whenever the season starts and ends. I'm damned good at it.:chuckle:
Post by: huntnphool on April 09, 2014, 01:41:57 PM
Why are we worried about sneaking anything past a state biologist? There is no science that says a later start date or longer season will increase the success rate or harvest rate...NONE. Look at other states that have a month long season. On average, success rates are the same as they are here!
The dates were changed because another user group complained about some undocumented and/or percieved advantage an archer might have over their user group. Not true, no science to back it up! The only way harvest would go up is if there were more archers. If there were more archers, there would be less ML or less rifle hunters. Therefore, harvest overall would still be about the same.
There is no credible science behnd the assumption that moving the dates later in the month will cause anything different to happen.
ET
So why the need to change anything then? 13 days is 13 days regardless what time of the month it is right? Just leave it starting the day after Labor Day and running 13 days.
Post by: hughjorgan on April 09, 2014, 04:44:26 PM
Why are we worried about sneaking anything past a state biologist? There is no science that says a later start date or longer season will increase the success rate or harvest rate...NONE. Look at other states that have a month long season. On average, success rates are the same as they are here!
The dates were changed because another user group complained about some undocumented and/or percieved advantage an archer might have over their user group. Not true, no science to back it up! The only way harvest would go up is if there were more archers. If there were more archers, there would be less ML or less rifle hunters. Therefore, harvest overall would still be about the same.
There is no credible science behnd the assumption that moving the dates later in the month will cause anything different to happen.
ET
So why the need to change anything then? 13 days is 13 days regardless what time of the month it is right? Just leave it starting the day after Labor Day and running 13 days.
The main reason to change it back to the later date in my mind is the chance to get some cooler weather later into September. Lots of guys are out there trying to put some meat in the freezer on the east side especially and cooler weather is going to make for a easier time caring for your elk. I don't really care about the rut, they will be talking all month long any how.
Post by: et1702 on April 09, 2014, 05:06:53 PM
Why are we worried about sneaking anything past a state biologist? There is no science that says a later start date or longer season will increase the success rate or harvest rate...NONE. Look at other states that have a month long season. On average, success rates are the same as they are here!
The dates were changed because another user group complained about some undocumented and/or percieved advantage an archer might have over their user group. Not true, no science to back it up! The only way harvest would go up is if there were more archers. If there were more archers, there would be less ML or less rifle hunters. Therefore, harvest overall would still be about the same.
There is no credible science behnd the assumption that moving the dates later in the month will cause anything different to happen.
ET
So why the need to change anything then? 13 days is 13 days regardless what time of the month it is right? Just leave it starting the day after Labor Day and running 13 days.
Too hot, too dry, greater potential for meat spoilage, fire hazard and fire closures (as we've had the past couple years in a row), over crowding certain areas due to fires, etc. Don't get me wrong, I've been archery hunting these amazing animals for over 35 years in most of the western states. Each year for the past several years here in WA, I've usually tagged out on the first day or two. Many others in my hunting party are also successful. It's not that it can't be done at this time of year.
But, being an archery hunter yourself, wouldn't you like to be in the woods when it's cooler and the animals are more vocal? Enjoy a campfire with your buddies, etc. It's just an exceptional time of year that I look forward too and start planning the next year as soon as the last season is over. For me, it's more about the experience, than the kill. I'll still be out there on Sept 2nd this year. But, wouldn't you rather have a later start date too?
In a perfect world, they'd open archery elk at the same time as archery deer (Sept 1 thru 22nd). Personnally, I hate the Labor Day weekend closure. While we are at it, the entire state should be open (i.e., any unit), rather than a few select units. Spread everybody out. But, that's another topic.
ET
Post by: et1702 on April 10, 2014, 01:31:54 PM
From what I know, there has been an increase archers in the past five years and a decrease in the number of big bulls we are taking. If the state is going to stick with this resource allocation, they are going to have to adjust the season timing to make sure equitable harvest of big bulls is maintained for the archery user group. Hopefully that gets us back to sept. 8-21 or close to it.
Hugh, This is a good point too. But, what isn't said is that the number of rifle rut tags in most of the areas just went from one to two permits. most years, success on these permits is near 100%. So, it looks like WDFW is giving archery's big bull allocation to the user group that whined the loudest the last time they made changes and stuck us with the floating start date. With Archery's average 10% to 20% success rate on big bull tags, that's 5 to 10 more Quality Bull archery tags (in each unit) that they just gave to the rifle guys.
ET
Post by: dreamingbig on April 10, 2014, 02:52:41 PM
I have said a few times on here. It is outrageous!
Post by: hughjorgan on April 10, 2014, 04:05:42 PM
From what I know, there has been an increase archers in the past five years and a decrease in the number of big bulls we are taking. If the state is going to stick with this resource allocation, they are going to have to adjust the season timing to make sure equitable harvest of big bulls is maintained for the archery user group. Hopefully that gets us back to sept. 8-21 or close to it.
Hugh, This is a good point too. But, what isn't said is that the number of rifle rut tags in most of the areas just went from one to two permits. most years, success on these permits is near 100%. So, it looks like WDFW is giving archery's big bull allocation to the user group that whined the loudest the last time they made changes and stuck us with the floating start date. With Archery's average 10% to 20% success rate on big bull tags, that's 5 to 10 more Quality Bull archery tags (in each unit) that they just gave to the rifle guys.
ET
Rifle hunters have seen opportunity expand while archers have had our opportunity slashed. In the GMU I hunt the bull permits have been cut in half since 2008. The pendulum needs to start swinging back in our direction to balance the harvest out.
Post by: Snapshot on April 10, 2014, 09:02:45 PM
From what I know, there has been an increase archers in the past five years and a decrease in the number of big bulls we are taking. If the state is going to stick with this resource allocation, they are going to have to adjust the season timing to make sure equitable harvest of big bulls is maintained for the archery user group. Hopefully that gets us back to sept. 8-21 or close to it.
If it can be shown to be true that big bull harvest is down since the 2008 change and that other user groups are now taking more than their allotment then we would have a very strong stance in reversing the 2008 decision. At the time the decision was made it was said that the change would be a test to find out if it would make mature bull harvest equitable. If the pendulum has swung too far and archery hunters are now trailing in the taking of adult bulls then it is time to make corrections.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 11, 2014, 01:51:29 PM
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Post by: Snapshot on April 12, 2014, 06:50:27 PM
Do we get to change the definition back to 6+ points too?
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I think they should define a Mature Bull for the sake of harvest stats the same way they define a Mature Bull in the Game Management Plan. It is foolish to lump the 5 point Immature Bulls (raghorns) in the harvest stats. I hope the Department straightens that out. If the Commission is shown the inconsistency they might have no choice!
Post by: huntnphool on April 14, 2014, 04:21:10 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 15, 2014, 04:06:51 AM
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Post by: huntnnw on April 15, 2014, 05:30:54 AM
When I first started seriously chasing elk with a bow our season started on the 1st and I killed 3 bulls 3 years in a row within the first 3 days! all called in. When they moved dates I didnt kill one for 2 years and started hunting ID after that.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 15, 2014, 06:16:52 AM
GMU and none of them have been killed prior to Sep 7th so to each their own. The heat, fire season and Labor Day crowds are my biggest motivation for the later start.
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Post by: grundy53 on April 15, 2014, 06:38:39 AM
On the Westside there are quite a few mature five points. A lot of bulls never grow a sixth point.Do we get to change the definition back to 6+ points too?
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I think they should define a Mature Bull for the sake of harvest stats the same way they define a Mature Bull in the Game Management Plan. It is foolish to lump the 5 point Immature Bulls (raghorns) in the harvest stats. I hope the Department straightens that out. If the Commission is shown the inconsistency they might have no choice!
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Post by: dreamingbig on April 15, 2014, 06:40:23 AM
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Post by: grundy53 on April 15, 2014, 08:55:27 AM
I would be okay with different standards east vs. west. Makes a lot of sense to manage them separately.
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I agree. They are 2 different sub-species and should be managed differently.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 15, 2014, 12:12:56 PM
I would be okay with different standards east vs. west. Makes a lot of sense to manage them separately.
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I agree. They are 2 different sub-species and should be managed differently.
Easier said than done, especially in the Cascades. I believe that to the DFW, I-5 is the divider between Roosevelt and Rocky Mountain, or American elk. However, I have yet to find an elk that can read highway signs. So what happens if you shoot the wrong species? I think making two distinct seasons might work if it were for specific areas a lot better than for distinct species. Roosevelt and American elk are a lot closer together and harder to distinguish than blacktails, whitetails, and mulies, IMHO.
Post by: Bean Counter on April 15, 2014, 12:16:26 PM
I believe that to the DFW, I-5 is the divider between Roosevelt and Rocky Mountain, or American elk.
It is to the Boone & Crocket club as well.
Post by: grundy53 on April 15, 2014, 12:33:32 PM
It wouldn't be that hard. Do it by region. If a region is predominantly rosies manage it for rosies. And vise versa. Just like they do with Mule/Blacktail deer. Have the pacific crest trail be the boundary, or I-5. Heck, they already kind of do it. West of PCT three point or better east of PCT spike only (not including the NE corner).I would be okay with different standards east vs. west. Makes a lot of sense to manage them separately.
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I agree. They are 2 different sub-species and should be managed differently.
Easier said than done, especially in the Cascades. I believe that to the DFW, I-5 is the divider between Roosevelt and Rocky Mountain, or American elk. However, I have yet to find an elk that can read highway signs. So what happens if you shoot the wrong species? I think making two distinct seasons might work if it were for specific areas a lot better than for distinct species. Roosevelt and American elk are a lot closer together and harder to distinguish than blacktails, whitetails, and mulies, IMHO.
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Post by: dreamingbig on April 15, 2014, 05:27:03 PM
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Post by: D-Rock425 on June 18, 2014, 06:46:07 PM
Post by: longwalker on June 18, 2014, 06:54:52 PM
Post by: motg9_6 on June 19, 2014, 07:45:43 AM
Post by: motg9_6 on June 19, 2014, 08:03:58 AM
heres the link but theres another thread started regarding the 2015+ season and reg changes start reading it so we can all get on the same page
Post by: Rainier10 on June 19, 2014, 08:14:48 AM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/ (http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/)Can you post a link to the other thread or let me know what forum it is in?
heres the link but theres another thread started regarding the 2015+ season and reg changes start reading it so we can all get on the same page
Post by: motg9_6 on June 19, 2014, 10:53:34 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 19, 2014, 01:02:09 PM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,155533.25.html (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,155533.25.html)
Post by: huntnphool on June 19, 2014, 01:43:40 PM
how do we get back? wait till next year when labor day is the 7th.....+1
Post by: splitshot on June 19, 2014, 01:51:43 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on June 20, 2014, 08:35:36 PM
I have said this before; too many people. more people, shorter seasons with more restrictions, e.g. spike only. you cant have a season when the bow guys are clobbering the big bulls, aint gonna happen. mike w
Where do you come up with that? Statistics and the results aren't backing you. It seems like a good "armchair" quarterback type theory but it's not bearing out in the facts. What is a "big bull" to you also? Is a 2.5 year old 5 point raghorn rosie a "big bull"?
If you remember, modern rifle and muzzy were given more opportunities in 2010 at big bulls, even in the rut. Things are much different now than they used to be and even then, they were taken out of context. Fact is, bow-hunters are relegated to cows half the time and at a higher rate than other user groups. Fact also is bow hunters have been killing a lower percentage of their allotted animals for years now.
Post by: Todd_ID on June 20, 2014, 11:20:20 PM
I have said this before; too many people. more people, shorter seasons with more restrictions, e.g. spike only. you cant have a season when the bow guys are clobbering the big bulls, aint gonna happen. mike wI respectfully disagree with the point that more people automatically bring shorter seasons and more regulations. Our seasons are set based on equality of harvest between user groups. If we convert people to archery from modern or attract more new archery hunters by having better seasons and more opportunity, then the number of animals we're allocated to harvest goes up proportionally when the population can support it (other user groups are restricted in their harvest if the population cannot).
I've crunched the data for every District in the state, and the numbers simply show that archery is not getting their fair share of bulls. Yes, that sounds selfish, and it is; we advocate FOR archery hunters--not for muzzleloaders or rifle hunters. We don't advocate against them, per se, but you can bet we'll argue FOR bowhunters up to the point where equality is accomplished. Nobody wants to see a season where any group clobbers a population, but when archery accounts for 39% of the hunters and only harvest 19% of the bulls taken in a District and rifle accounts for 50% of the hunters and 67% of the bulls taken, then it's time to change the seasons/rules appropriately for both.
Post by: bobcat on June 20, 2014, 11:58:56 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on June 21, 2014, 07:17:41 AM
You know, archery hunters would probably harvest a higher percentage of bulls if they weren't able to kill cows first. So maybe one thing that needs to happen is to close many units to antlerless harvest. :dunno:
:chuckle:
And cut the thousands of cow tags... :chuckle:
Post by: wog on June 23, 2014, 03:52:59 PM
Post by: huntnphool on June 23, 2014, 04:44:21 PM
The 300 yard shot comment ,kills me any responsible bow hunter still needs to be 60 yards or closer. up close you have to consider wind , sound, and movement,, plus just a clear path for arrow, the modern bow is just easier to shoot , faster more accurate. and rifle hunter are taking shot at 1000 yard with the new scope out to dayLOL :chuckle: The only 1000 yard shots are by those that WANT to be taking 1000 yard shots, it has nothing to do with new or old technology scopes!
That was a quality effort in bringing the technology arguement back into it though! :chuckle:
Post by: snowpack on June 23, 2014, 05:03:00 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on June 23, 2014, 05:17:02 PM
The modern season never had really had an expectation of range. Rifles have been shooting game at long range for many years. Many guns from WWI were set up for 1,000 yds and found their way back as hunting rifles. Most of the rifle kills, I've read, are between 80-100 yds. It is my understanding that the bow seasons were originally billed as needing the separate season because the archers needed to get close to animals (much closer than rifle hunters), but if they are shooting at the same ranges that the majority of rifle hunters take their game at--then where is the need for a handicap in the form of a separate season. Seems those shooting the long range bows are similarly equipped as the rifle hunters.
I won't respond to this because it's obviously a joke, right? :o
Post by: huntnphool on June 23, 2014, 05:19:22 PM
You just did. :chuckle:The modern season never had really had an expectation of range. Rifles have been shooting game at long range for many years. Many guns from WWI were set up for 1,000 yds and found their way back as hunting rifles. Most of the rifle kills, I've read, are between 80-100 yds. It is my understanding that the bow seasons were originally billed as needing the separate season because the archers needed to get close to animals (much closer than rifle hunters), but if they are shooting at the same ranges that the majority of rifle hunters take their game at--then where is the need for a handicap in the form of a separate season. Seems those shooting the long range bows are similarly equipped as the rifle hunters.
I won't respond to this because it's obviously a joke, right? :o
Post by: longwalker on June 23, 2014, 05:47:58 PM
The modern season never had really had an expectation of range. Rifles have been shooting game at long range for many years. Many guns from WWI were set up for 1,000 yds and found their way back as hunting rifles. Most of the rifle kills, I've read, are between 80-100 yds. It is my understanding that the bow seasons were originally billed as needing the separate season because the archers needed to get close to animals (much closer than rifle hunters), but if they are shooting at the same ranges that the majority of rifle hunters take their game at--then where is the need for a handicap in the form of a separate season. Seems those shooting the long range bows are similarly equipped as the rifle hunters.
once again the internet ups the anti for ignorance. it would be impressive if it wasnt so sad
Post by: splitshot on June 24, 2014, 08:00:09 AM
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on June 24, 2014, 03:29:06 PM
Next year it will be the 8 - 20. Tues after Labor Day opening is what's it has always been since I started. (7years) not sure what it was before.
Only since 2009
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on June 24, 2014, 03:44:55 PM
Post by: Fullabull on June 24, 2014, 05:20:20 PM
WDFW changed the seasons for Archery hunters years ago to start the day after Labor day. Since then Archery success rates have been falling. There is no good reason for the current starting dates, it has only served to reduce the number of branch bulls harvested by Archery hunters. I have noticed in the general season harvest reports that they try and make it look like success rates are kind of equal between hunting groups.
But what they do not show you is how much disparity there is in the success rates for Special Permit hunts. I took the time to go through them and provide the success rates below.
Archers need to demand going back to early season starting date of Sept. 8th and keep it there.
Quality Bull Hunt MF
Hunters 251 Permits 305
Spike 2 Point 3 Point 4 Point 5 + Point
8 3 6 20 116
Total Bulls 153 Success 61%
Branch Bull Success 54%
Quality Bull Hunt AR
Hunters 406 Permits 580
Spike 2 Point 3 Point 4 Point 5 + Point
5 2 0 5 57
Total Bulls 69 Success 17%
Branch Bull Success 15%
Quality Bull Hunt ML
Hunters 108 Permits 141
Spike 2 Point 3 Point 4 Point 5 + Point
3 2 0 3 42
Total Bulls 50 Success 46%
Branch Bull Success 41%
Bull Elk Permits MF
Hunters 482 Permits 598
Spike 2 Point 3 Point 4 Point 5 + Point
16 8 8 30 146
Total Bulls 208 Success 43%
Branch Bull Success 36%
Bull Elk Permits AR
Hunters 60 Permits 87
Spike 2 Point 3 Point 4 Point 5 + Point
2 0 2 0 13
Total Bulls 17 Success 28%
Branch Bull Success 22%
Bull Elk Permits ML
Hunters 48 Permits 71
Spike 2 Point 3 Point 4 Point 5 + Point
2 0 0 1 11
Total Bulls 14 Success 29%
Branch Bull Success 25%
Modify message
Post by: Fullabull on June 24, 2014, 05:21:31 PM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,155563.0.html (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,155563.0.html)
Post by: BABackcountryBwhntr on September 23, 2014, 04:03:33 PM
Post by: motg9_6 on September 24, 2014, 06:44:34 AM
Post by: Katmai Guy on September 24, 2014, 10:57:04 AM
Post by: Russ McDonald on September 24, 2014, 11:09:47 AM
Post by: bobcat on September 24, 2014, 11:20:56 AM
Post by: BABackcountryBwhntr on September 24, 2014, 11:22:37 AM
Because we have twice the number of overall hunters and fewer animals due to mismanagement.
while we may have fewer, we still have more then enough to hunt.
Post by: D-Rock425 on September 24, 2014, 11:23:38 AM
I posted this up on a ML thread about dates and tweaked originally what I was thinking but how about early archery starts second Saturday of September goes for 16 days and that is both for elk and deer. Then ML early starts second Saturday of October for 16 days for both deer and elk. Modern second Saturday of November for 16 days both deer and elk. Late ML and archery season December 1-15.this would never work.
Post by: BABackcountryBwhntr on September 24, 2014, 11:30:04 AM
When the bowhunters first won separate seasons a 30 yard shot with a bow was considered about as difficult as a 300 yard rifle shot; people who had shot both weapons said a guy could shoot ten times farther with a rifle and that was widely accepted as a good generality. Today we have some guy on YouTube popping balloons with a compound from 300 yards. It is very evident that technology has removed from bowhunting the challenge that it presented when it was first granted the opportunity for longer seasons. Those who argue that it shouldn’t have longer seasons only know compound hunting. And compound hunting is entirely different…from a different planet, so to speak…from what bowhunting seasons were created for; they were created to give outdoorsmen who were willing to accept the greater challenge more time afield, and were justified by the inherent difficulty of shooting the weapon. As the difficulty decreases with technological advances (and 300 yard balloon shots demonstrated) it becomes harder and harder to justify the longer seasons. And so…primitive seasons for primitive weapons will soon again be an argument that might be worth discussing.
But this thread is about how to get the elk seasons back to September 8-21. Can you keep those thoughts flowing? This summer the WDFW will start fleshing out the recommendations for the 2015-17 package and we need to have our ducks lined up by the Fall of this year.
your logic is a bit flawed.... what diff does it make if I call in and kill my bull at 25 yrds with my hoyt or a recurve? just because the technology is better, in no way means you can just pick up a bow and kill animals at 90 yrds. Id guess that 90% of bowhunters really should not shoot past 50n yrds... ever.... so it is still very much a close game and much harder.... rifle hunting is easy.. I have hunted with/for disabled tag holder during those seasons.... I see it... it dies..... I was into elk every day or archery this year and had 1 shot I messed up on... and I can hold a consistent 8 in group out to 100 yrds with broadheads btw.... that in no way means that is a shot I want or will take.
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 24, 2014, 11:45:50 AM
Post by: motg9_6 on September 24, 2014, 11:51:30 AM
When the bowhunters first won separate seasons a 30 yard shot with a bow was considered about as difficult as a 300 yard rifle shot; people who had shot both weapons said a guy could shoot ten times farther with a rifle and that was widely accepted as a good generality. Today we have some guy on YouTube popping balloons with a compound from 300 yards. It is very evident that technology has removed from bowhunting the challenge that it presented when it was first granted the opportunity for longer seasons. Those who argue that it shouldn’t have longer seasons only know compound hunting. And compound hunting is entirely different…from a different planet, so to speak…from what bowhunting seasons were created for; they were created to give outdoorsmen who were willing to accept the greater challenge more time afield, and were justified by the inherent difficulty of shooting the weapon. As the difficulty decreases with technological advances (and 300 yard balloon shots demonstrated) it becomes harder and harder to justify the longer seasons. And so…primitive seasons for primitive weapons will soon again be an argument that might be worth discussing.
But this thread is about how to get the elk seasons back to September 8-21. Can you keep those thoughts flowing? This summer the WDFW will start fleshing out the recommendations for the 2015-17 package and we need to have our ducks lined up by the Fall of this year.
your logic is a bit flawed.... what diff does it make if I call in and kill my bull at 25 yrds with my hoyt or a recurve? just because the technology is better, in no way means you can just pick up a bow and kill animals at 90 yrds. Id guess that 90% of bowhunters really should not shoot past 50n yrds... ever.... so it is still very much a close game and much harder.... rifle hunting is easy.. I have hunted with/for disabled tag holder during those seasons.... I see it... it dies..... I was into elk every day or archery this year and had 1 shot I messed up on... and I can hold a consistent 8 in group out to 100 yrds with broadheads btw.... that in no way means that is a shot I want or will take.
popping a ballon at 300 yds is COMPLETELY different than putting a kill shot at 30 yds. that would be like saying a bb gun is effective at 300 yds because it can pop a balloon. for the AVERAGE archery hunter effective max distance kill shot would be around 60 yds. do to the loss of kinetic energy your not getting the penetration at the longer ranges. has the bow technology improved since then yes, but not to the extremes your making it out to be!
what about muzzleloaders their effective range has grown more than in archery.
what about the increase in technology for firearms??? heck they sell 1000 yd guns off the shelf now days that almost anybody can be effective with.
what good for the goose should be good for the gander!
Post by: Russ McDonald on September 24, 2014, 12:20:23 PM
This would give archery back the dates that are wanted. Also it gives everyone 3 full weekends to hunt.
Why wouldn't it work? Because WDFW wouldn't allow it or because we as hunters all together can't get on the same page. Instead there is in fighting amongst us all. I don't really want to modern rifle hunt but I would switch between ML and archery. I like to hunt and I think that this would give everyone ample opportunity to hunt for what they want and what they want to hunt with. I don't mind getting criticism but just don't tell it won't work. Tell me why it won't work.I posted this up on a ML thread about dates and tweaked originally what I was thinking but how about early archery starts second Saturday of September goes for 16 days and that is both for elk and deer. Then ML early starts second Saturday of October for 16 days for both deer and elk. Modern second Saturday of November for 16 days both deer and elk. Late ML and archery season December 1-15.this would never work.
Post by: bobcat on September 24, 2014, 12:29:39 PM
Although I really don't have any issue with the way the seasons are now.
Post by: Russ McDonald on September 24, 2014, 12:39:09 PM
Russ, maybe if you were to switch the muzzleloader and modern, so that modern is in October, and muzzleloader is in November.Honestly I don't either but I am just throwing out a change that would benefit everyone. If you talking taking the modern elk and deer and moving them to October. That would put modern in the tale end of the elk rut correct. Of course depending on the weather that year. Wouldn't mind that. Things can always be tweaked but I think that giving everyone 3 weekends to hunt would make all happy what ever time they hunt.
Although I really don't have any issue with the way the seasons are now.
Post by: bobcat on September 24, 2014, 12:43:28 PM
So with 16 days for modern deer, you'd basically be cutting the number of days in half.
Not likely to go over well with the majority of hunters.
Post by: RadSav on September 24, 2014, 12:46:07 PM
Post by: snowpack on September 24, 2014, 12:46:36 PM
Russ, maybe if you were to switch the muzzleloader and modern, so that modern is in October, and muzzleloader is in November.I thought you wanted permit only?
Although I really don't have any issue with the way the seasons are now.
Really only ways I could see to allow as much 'opportunity' as russ wants would be to change *something* that would keep the overall harvest where WDFW could keep the herds how they like them. Ex: More antler point restrictions would lower harvest, so a longer season would allow the same number for harvest. Predator reduction to allow herd increase. Massive logging spree to make habitat to increase herds. Equipment regulation to lower harvest to allow for longer seasons.
Post by: bobcat on September 24, 2014, 12:53:30 PM
Russ, maybe if you were to switch the muzzleloader and modern, so that modern is in October, and muzzleloader is in November.I thought you wanted permit only?
Although I really don't have any issue with the way the seasons are now.
I wouldn't mind seeing more permit only seasons/units and less general seasons, where it makes sense.
But if we're going to have general seasons like we have now, I don't see a reason for a major change in the way they're set up.
Post by: Jonathan_S on September 24, 2014, 12:55:44 PM
An additional 100 fps second doesn't turn a 30 yard weapon into a 300 yard weapon. It turns a 200fps/30 yard weapon into a 300fps/40 yard weapon. Only thing that has extended the effectiveness of modern archery equipment has been the laser rangefinder. Which coincidentally has extended the effectiveness of the modern firearm at the same time.
That is a salient bit of logic.
Another factor that non-bowhunters tend to glaze over is that it is much more difficult to obtain a responsible shooting lane and to get into position with archery equipment.
I've hunted modern rifle and muzzleloader both. Safety off, boom. Maybe a short stalk to get within range or a better angle.
The effort into getting an archery animal is like six rifle seasons combined.
I, for one, am very excited for the rotating start date to begin on the 8th next year.
Post by: Russ McDonald on September 24, 2014, 12:57:29 PM
Exactly what I was thinking. I know it is a far fetched idea but wouldn't it be logical or is it just me that sees that. :dunno: :chuckle:Russ, maybe if you were to switch the muzzleloader and modern, so that modern is in October, and muzzleloader is in November.I thought you wanted permit only?
Although I really don't have any issue with the way the seasons are now.
Really only ways I could see to allow as much 'opportunity' as russ wants would be to change *something* that would keep the overall harvest where WDFW could keep the herds how they like them. Ex: More antler point restrictions would lower harvest, so a longer season would allow the same number for harvest. Predator reduction to allow herd increase. Massive logging spree to make habitat to increase herds. Equipment regulation to lower harvest to allow for longer seasons.
Modern deer season is 21 days this year, plus 12 days for late whitetail and 4 days for late blacktail.Can't make everyone happy but if you make it even then it should be a good compromise. I did forget about those late modern seasons. I don't see a reason for changing those because they are pretty much on limited GMU's.
So with 16 days for modern deer, you'd basically be cutting the number of days in half.
Not likely to go over well with the majority of hunters.
Post by: D-Rock425 on December 09, 2014, 10:07:27 AM
Post by: Jingles on December 09, 2014, 10:26:59 AM
Now before you start saying I'm whining I don't think it is any different than asking for special season for PW. I mean come on look at the dates that are already available for the seasons for MZ and archery.
Another and more feasible alternative would be to just issue a license and allow the hunter to use what ever weapon he chooses until he gets his Holy grail of 1 deer/ elk/bear per season.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 09, 2014, 10:38:17 AM
Well as long as everyone is looking for a special season for their particular hunting method why not have a special season for the outfitters and their packer and guides? After all they spend most of the season taking other hunters in and out of the woods and get very little time to actually hunt when they aren't baby sitting dude hunters.
Now before you start saying I'm whining I don't think it is any different than asking for special season for PW. I mean come on look at the dates that are already available for the seasons for MZ and archery.
Another and more feasible alternative would be to just issue a license and allow the hunter to use what ever weapon he chooses until he gets his Holy grail of 1 deer/ elk/bear per season.
Not everyone is looking for a special season. The archery season has been too early and way too hot to avoid loss of meat. Although I wasn't asking for a change, this one makes sense. And as far as a different season for guides? There are no special seasons for people whose occupations keep them from hunting when they want. When I was in aviation and archery came during show season, that was my choice and my problem. If people choose to be guides, that's their choice and their problem. It's a whole different story. It's the same with guys who own archery shops or sporting goods stores. If you don't like missing the hunting seasons, find another line of work. I did.
Post by: kentrek on December 09, 2014, 10:57:07 AM
Another and more feasible alternative would be to just issue a license and allow the hunter to use what ever weapon he chooses until he gets his Holy grail of 1 deer/ elk/bear per season.
Washington isnt selling an animal it's selling the opportunity to hunt an animal...this let's them allow many more people to hunt an there fore make more money
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 09, 2014, 11:04:40 AM
I could agree too early for getting good rut activity and not enough time to let the woods calm down after the labor day partiers, but the difference in temperature I can't see being a degree or two, and difference in daylight being more than a minute.
Not everyone is looking for a special season. The archery season has been too early and way too hot to avoid loss of meat. Although I wasn't asking for a change, this one makes sense. And as far as a different season for guides? There are no special seasons for people whose occupations keep them from hunting when they want. When I was in aviation and archery came during show season, that was my choice and my problem. If people choose to be guides, that's their choice and their problem. It's a whole different story. It's the same with guys who own archery shops or sporting goods stores. If you don't like missing the hunting seasons, find another line of work. I did.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 09, 2014, 12:12:53 PM