Post by: Optimusprime on July 31, 2014, 05:31:08 AM
Post by: 6x6in6 on July 31, 2014, 06:14:30 AM
Outside of that potential con there is those people who may decide they like your camp gear more than you do when you return. >:(
Post by: kentrek on July 31, 2014, 06:59:41 AM
Ours is 7miles in an is just a tarp cook tent then we pitch seperate tents once we get there
Post by: Optimusprime on July 31, 2014, 09:10:55 AM
Post by: syoungs on July 31, 2014, 09:46:53 AM
In the rimrock I camped close to what appeared to be a abandoned camp, few old Walmart tents and cheap chairs, last day I was there a guy came pulling in setting up his wall tent, mad I was there cause he had left his "camp" setup as a placeholder.
Post by: wlandrum on July 31, 2014, 09:57:06 AM
Post by: Broken Arrow on July 31, 2014, 10:10:40 AM
Post by: Quackwhacker on July 31, 2014, 02:57:04 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on July 31, 2014, 03:28:05 PM
Post by: CP on July 31, 2014, 03:42:58 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on July 31, 2014, 04:00:24 PM
A lot of people just setup a $5 value village tent to claim their campsite and save the good stuff for when they actually move in.
I see that a lot too. If it is on public land and you want to camp there then there is no reason that you can't or shouldn't politely take the tent down and set up your camp. If I did something like that I would hope that nobody was camping there but if they were, I would find a different spot. The risk you run is like mentioned earlier how some jackwagons think it is their spot since they have camped their for years or left an old tent and could possibly take things overboard. :bdid:
Post by: Antlershed on July 31, 2014, 04:51:03 PM
I don't mind people leaving their camps a few days to maybe a week or two before their hunt. My issue is if they get upset if their stuff gets stolen or if someone moved their stuff. I view it as hanging trail cameras. I know that by leaving them out, they are at risk of either being messed with or stolen and that is a risk I accept.How would you know they aren't still actively camping there? Maybe they are out scouting for the day. If I setup a camp, I shouldn't have to sit there 24/7 cause some jackwagon thinks it is ok to steal or move my stuff should it be left unattended... :twocents:
Post by: MAVsled on July 31, 2014, 06:24:57 PM
unit 360 Bethel/Yakima
set up camp early by 5 days.
Left Sunday the weekend before opener, returned Thursday eve.
Hunted, took a spike bull on opener. After 3 cold days, on Tuesday took the meat home to West Seattle for butchering, wrapping and put in freezer.
Friends decided to return as well on Wednesday, after I had left. Their plan was to return on Friday for the final weekend.
I returned Friday afternoon as well to camp, relax and pack up on Sunday.
Cots, lanterns, wood stove, folding tables, chairs all stripped from the tent....rather stolen.
Surprised the thieves just didn't pack the wall tent too.
only good thing is my personal-hunting gear I had packed back home with me earlier, including my rifle.
now I set up trail cams around camp, just in case evidence may be needed.
Post by: hrd2fnd on July 31, 2014, 06:32:46 PM
Post by: Mfowl on July 31, 2014, 06:47:21 PM
I don't mind people leaving their camps a few days to maybe a week or two before their hunt. My issue is if they get upset if their stuff gets stolen or if someone moved their stuff. I view it as hanging trail cameras. I know that by leaving them out, they are at risk of either being messed with or stolen and that is a risk I accept.How would you know they aren't still actively camping there? Maybe they are out scouting for the day. If I setup a camp, I shouldn't have to sit there 24/7 cause some jackwagon thinks it is ok to steal or move my stuff should it be left unattended... :twocents:
Its not that difficult to pick out a "dummy" camp. When you pass by it several times going to and from your hunting area at different times of day and never see anyone in it, then the day before the opener there is a trailer and a wall tent in the exact spot, its pretty obvious what was going on. I always arrive 2-4 days early for ML elk season and I pass by plenty of these camps while I'm out scouting before opening day. I don't appreciate it but it has yet to interfere with my camping or hunting.
Post by: Jingles on July 31, 2014, 06:48:37 PM
Post by: Styles on July 31, 2014, 08:43:19 PM
Post by: MarkyMark on July 31, 2014, 09:11:02 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on July 31, 2014, 10:00:28 PM
Post by: grousefether on July 31, 2014, 10:15:50 PM
Post by: Optimusprime on August 01, 2014, 09:25:15 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on August 01, 2014, 09:29:11 AM
I don't mind people leaving their camps a few days to maybe a week or two before their hunt. My issue is if they get upset if their stuff gets stolen or if someone moved their stuff. I view it as hanging trail cameras. I know that by leaving them out, they are at risk of either being messed with or stolen and that is a risk I accept.How would you know they aren't still actively camping there? Maybe they are out scouting for the day. If I setup a camp, I shouldn't have to sit there 24/7 cause some jackwagon thinks it is ok to steal or move my stuff should it be left unattended... :twocents:
Its not that difficult to pick out a "dummy" camp. When you pass by it several times going to and from your hunting area at different times of day and never see anyone in it, then the day before the opener there is a trailer and a wall tent in the exact spot, its pretty obvious what was going on. I always arrive 2-4 days early for ML elk season and I pass by plenty of these camps while I'm out scouting before opening day. I don't appreciate it but it has yet to interfere with my camping or hunting.
Exactly. I am not saying I would drive up and just set up but you can tell a dummy camp and if after a day or two nothing has changed then by all means camp there. Sounds a bit like a jerk move but where do you draw the line? If that is ok then I might as well start going out to my actual hunting spots, leave a chair and then when I come back expect to be able to hunt there... :bdid:
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 01, 2014, 09:39:59 AM
You guys ever hear of people straight up jacking other people's camping stuff?
Absolutely, for a couple of reasons. One: plain theft. Two: some people get ticked when someone sets up a camp on public land, illegally holding a spot until they come up for real a week later. I wouldn't do it, but I know people who would, especially if we're talking about a prime location.
Sounds like some pretty sketchy business going on. A little ridiculous if you ask me. I feel like if someone bothers to stake out an area and put their stuff up, people should respect it. I certainly wouldn't move or disregard someone else's effort. Maybe I'm alone on that.
Really? So what's a reasonable amount of time for someone to reserve a piece of public land for themselves? 3 days? A Week? A month? All year? This discussion rears its ugly head each year. You don't get to tie up public land if you're not there. I pay taxes on that land just like everyone else (everyone else who pays federal income tax, that is). If you or at least one of your hunting partners can't get the time off to get out there early enough to get your spot, you're SOL. Simple. Now if it's private land you're hunting, that's between you and the landowner and their rules.
Post by: Tbob on August 01, 2014, 10:31:46 AM
Post by: Optimusprime on August 01, 2014, 11:25:26 AM
[/quote]
That's a good point. I have never experienced the dummy camps before, as I am still new to hunting. I was more thinking of just getting your stuff there and set up so when you head up, you are good to go already; just seems like it would allow soemone to bring more consumable supplies that wouldnt make it up in one trip. Shame people will burn down a camp and trash/steal stuff.
Post by: washelkhunter on August 01, 2014, 12:25:46 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on August 01, 2014, 12:55:02 PM
:yeah:
That's a good point. I have never experienced the dummy camps before, as I am still new to hunting. I was more thinking of just getting your stuff there and set up so when you head up, you are good to go already; just seems like it would allow soemone to bring more consumable supplies that wouldnt make it up in one trip. Shame people will burn down a camp and trash/steal stuff.
When I hunt from the road on public ground we usually setup camp a weekend or two before season, but its not to "reserve" some specific campsite...its more just logistics. I want to have a bunch of camp chores done, a place setup for some stock, some firewood cut, rv setup if we bring one etc. That way when I show up a day or two before season there is a lot less work and a lot more scouting time.
I have seen groups put up "dummy" camps in what I perceived as a deliberate attempt to discourage others from camping/hunting an area...I think thats bs...not that there is a real difference in the end between that and setting up early I guess. I do abide by the dispersed area camping limits established by the USFS...most areas are 14 days, some areas are 18 days.
Post by: birddogdad on August 01, 2014, 01:05:51 PM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 01, 2014, 02:18:37 PM
Dont be the jackwagons setting up DC's, you dont have the right or legal standing to such, and if you pull in screaming about how this is your site, well, good luck with that.
I like that.
Post by: Buzz2401 on August 01, 2014, 10:11:27 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on August 01, 2014, 10:17:59 PM
We set up our 3 wall tents around the third weekend of September and leave them up till the end of general rifle. We are up only on the weekends until deer opens then there is typically someone there till the end of elk when we break camp. Have been doing this for last 20 years and have yet to have anything stolen but it will be a *censored*ty day when it happens. I think if a camp is run down and tent is falling down then it should be considered abandoned. But just cause you havent seen someone in a few days doesn't mean you should take it down.
Filthy squatters :lol4:
Post by: spin05 on August 02, 2014, 03:32:50 AM
Post by: Hunter Dug on August 02, 2014, 08:26:03 AM
Gifford Pinchot National Forest camping rules
Outside of Campgrounds
Camping outside of campgrounds is permitted throughout most of the Gifford Pinchot National Forest. Please observe a few simple guidelines to make your stay safer and fun, practice the "No Trace" ethic and leave a clean forest for others to enjoy.
Rules
•Maximum Stay Limit: 28 days per site, 45 days per year.
•After 28 days, you are required to move at least 5 miles away.
•Locate your camping spot outside of fragile meadows and restricted areas, and preferably on bare or mineral soil.
•Camp out of view from major roads and trails, where possible.
•Camp at least 100 feet away from the shoreline of lakes and streams to help protect plants and animals that use these areas.
•Avoid trenching around sleeping areas. Select a campsite with good natural drainage.
Water
Streams and lakes are home to many microscopic organisms; some of them can make you very sick. So don't take a chance; treat your water or bring water from home... and, of course, never clean dishes or fish in a stream or lake.
Campfires
Campfires are a favorite camping tradition. Help protect the site and forest with a few precautions:
Use camp stoves to help conserve ground cover resources or....
•Use and existing fire ring where available. If you need one, build it small and in a safe place and not under overhanging branches.
•Gather only dead and down wood for your fire while camping. Never cut (or nail into) live trees. (A firewood permit is required to remove wood from the Forest.)
•You should have a bucket, shovel, and axe available to control or extinguish escaped fire. Never leave a fire unattended.
•Remember Smokey's Message: "Prevent Forest Fires." Be sure your fire is DEAD OUT before you leave. Drown it, turn it, stir it until it's cool to the touch (including charcoal).
Human Waste
If there are no toilets available, choose a suitable, screened spot at least 100 feet away from any stream or lake. Dig a small hole about 6 inches deep by 8 inches in diameter. After use, fill the hole with soil and replace the duff. This allows the waste to decompose naturally. Bury toilet paper in the same hole. Empty built-in or portable toilets at sanitary dump stations.
Camp Waste
Always "PACK IT OUT!" Please leave your campsite cleaner than you found it. Clean up and remove any manure, hay and straw before leaving.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Published: 29 Apr
Read more: http://www.gorp.com/parks-guide/travel-ta-gifford-pinchot-national-forest-washington-sidwcmdev_066774.html#ixzz39FRLpMZc (http://www.gorp.com/parks-guide/travel-ta-gifford-pinchot-national-forest-washington-sidwcmdev_066774.html#ixzz39FRLpMZc)
Post by: SCRUBS on August 02, 2014, 08:43:52 AM
Post by: turkeyfeather on August 02, 2014, 09:10:14 AM
Post by: washelkhunter on August 02, 2014, 10:10:22 AM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on August 02, 2014, 10:44:31 AM
Hunter dug is wrong, he should have checked the GPNF rules for dispersed and not gorp. 14 day max limit then you need to move 5 miles away. Also dummy camps are not permitted, your site has to be occupied.
He sure is
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5291562.pdf (http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5291562.pdf)
Post by: Hunter Dug on August 02, 2014, 11:22:52 AM
Hunter dug is wrong, he should have checked the GPNF rules for dispersed and not gorp. 14 day max limit then you need to move 5 miles away. Also dummy camps are not permitted, your site has to be occupied.
Yes you are right I am wrong. Still does not negate my point that you cant set camp up early most people are talking about a week, not 14 days not 28 days. This gives them the right to be there for 14 days whether they are present all the time or not. Clearly states FIRST COME FIRST SERVE. I set my trailer up usually the weekend before the open yes just to save my camping spot for the hunting season and that is my right as I read it. If you were to come in and take my stuff down and move it out of your way, or burn it or what ever I find it hard to believe that there would not be ramification if the law was informed. There are rules in place for a reason, if they benefit you great but if they don't, you just do what ever you feel is going to make you feel better about the situation?
Post by: spin05 on August 03, 2014, 12:00:58 AM
Hunter dug is wrong, he should have checked the GPNF rules for dispersed and not gorp. 14 day max limit then you need to move 5 miles away. Also dummy camps are not permitted, your site has to be occupied.
Yes you are right I am wrong. Still does not negate my point that you cant set camp up early most people are talking about a week, not 14 days not 28 days. This gives them the right to be there for 14 days whether they are present all the time or not. Clearly states FIRST COME FIRST SERVE. I set my trailer up usually the weekend before the open yes just to save my camping spot for the hunting season and that is my right as I read it. If you were to come in and take my stuff down and move it out of your way, or burn it or what ever I find it hard to believe that there would not be ramification if the law was informed. There are rules in place for a reason, if they benefit you great but if they don't, you just do what ever you feel is going to make you feel better about the situation?
Id agree with that. Weather your there camping or just saving your spot for next weekend. As long as you dont out stay your welcome beyond 14 days with all your stuff then dummy camping is allowed.
Post by: washelkhunter on August 03, 2014, 06:14:30 AM
Post by: MADMAX on August 03, 2014, 07:01:57 AM
We cant even leave a trailer on private property with out some idiot stealing stuff
and I mean dishes soap, propane bottles that kind of stuff
POS 's
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on August 03, 2014, 07:30:34 AM
This topic (as well as few others that pop up repeatedly) is always entertaining :chuckle: My only question is, what the he** is a "jackwagon" :dunno: This term usually comes up in topics like this :chuckle:
Yes I will start a new thread and everybody can chime in on what a JACKWAGON is to them? This will be good!!!! :tup:
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 03, 2014, 08:47:49 AM
I've written to the GPNF to get clarification of the rules. I was unable to find anything on their website that defines what an abandoned campsite is.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on August 03, 2014, 09:01:53 AM
You guys must not value your stuff
We cant even leave a trailer on private property with out some idiot stealing stuff
and I mean dishes soap, propane bottles that kind of stuff
POS 's
I have special camp gear just for that reason, if they take it, or destroy it 'Im out nothing other than my gas to get there. :chuckle:
If dummy camping is illegal please show us in writing, i haven't looked for it either. :dunno:
Why is this such a big isuue anyways, if you can't beat them join them. :tup:
Post by: big wood on August 03, 2014, 09:40:57 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 05, 2014, 12:24:32 PM
"Hi, Sorry, but dispersed camping is 14 days at one location maximum. No leaving equipment or placeholders, campers must be present at the campsite.
Abandoned campsite locations can be reported to the Ranger Districts at:
Mount St. Helens National Volcanic Monument Headquarters
42218 N.E. Yale Bridge Rd.
Amboy, WA 98601
360-449-7800
Cowlitz Valley Ranger District
10024 US Hwy 12
PO Box 670
Randle, WA 98377
(360) 497-1100
Mt. Adams Ranger District
2455 Hwy 141
Trout Lake, WA 98650
(509) 395-3402
Hope this information helps,
Respectfully,
John Givvines
Information Assistant
Gifford Pinchot NF"
Post by: baker5150 on August 05, 2014, 12:54:25 PM
The next day another FS guy came and took the tent down. He stopped by and told us if we see the guys to let them know they could pick their tent up at the Naches Ranger station.
So, we told them that night when they arrived, and they went down there and got their tent back no questions asked.
Post by: bowhiker on August 05, 2014, 09:25:13 PM
Post by: KFhunter on August 05, 2014, 10:17:40 PM
Especially when a dummy camp was in a coveted location; I respected the dummy camp and camped in a less than desirable spot and got to watch that dummy camp go unoccupied during my entire stay.
Won't make that mistake again.
Post by: bigtex on August 05, 2014, 10:27:32 PM
Post by: RadSav on August 05, 2014, 10:43:41 PM
hunters complaining about some type of camping violation observed over the following weeked.
I saw into the future once...but I didn't see any camping violations! It did scare the heck out of me once the present caught up and validated the event :chuckle:
Sorry Bigtex. I couldn't resist! :devil:
Post by: Quaka Wacka on August 05, 2014, 11:14:25 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 06, 2014, 06:42:42 AM
Wow. There are some interesting views on this subject, and interesting justifications for stealing and vandalism. I guess some guys were just raised different than others...
While I wouldn't condone any stealing or vandalism, holding a campsite is stealing a resource that we all own. I would venture to say that if someone were raised right, they'd know better than to try to stake out territory on public lands for their return, whenever that may be. It's an unreasonable expectation that I should be able to keep others from using a resource today that I intend to use 5 days from now.
Post by: northcoast on August 06, 2014, 07:02:56 AM
That's ridiculous.
If I setup a dummy camp and somebody moves in next to me I don't mind. Could be a future hunting buddy. But if my stuff is moved, stolen, or destroyed chances are I'm going to go off.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 06, 2014, 07:06:31 AM
So if I have a base camp setup and I'm out on a bivy hunt for a few days that means I'm stealing a resource?
That's ridiculous.
If I setup a dummy camp and somebody moves in next to me I don't mind. Could be a future hunting buddy. But if my stuff is moved, stolen, or destroyed chances are I'm going to go off.
No, it doesn't. And you'd be smart to notify the local ranger station to let them know. You know full well that's not what this discussion is about. The discussion is about people who come up a week before they're going to stay and try to reserve their favorite spot with a crappy tent and a chair.
Post by: northcoast on August 06, 2014, 07:24:30 AM
The discussion is about people who come up a week before they're going to stay and try to reserve their favorite spot with a crappy tent and a chair.
Only problem with that is if I come up the weekend before the season starts, it's usually by myself so all I bring is the crappy tent and chair. If I leave camp in my car I don't leave my bag or kitchen stuff because I don't want it stolen. Just because it looks like a dummy camp doesn't always mean it is. I figure I have 14 days at that spot, if I set up on 8/23 that means I have until 9/6. Just sayin'.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 06, 2014, 07:43:27 AM
The discussion is about people who come up a week before they're going to stay and try to reserve their favorite spot with a crappy tent and a chair.
Only problem with that is if I come up the weekend before the season starts, it's usually by myself so all I bring is the crappy tent and chair. If I leave camp in my car I don't leave my bag or kitchen stuff because I don't want it stolen. Just because it looks like a dummy camp doesn't always mean it is. I figure I have 14 days at that spot, if I set up on 8/23 that means I have until 9/6. Just sayin'.
I posted the reply from the forest service above. They're very clear that you have to be actively using the site. Feeling entitled to a spot just because you leave a tent on it doesn't make it so. You're not entitled to it unless you're there.
Post by: northcoast on August 06, 2014, 08:11:26 AM
Feeling entitled to a spot just because you leave a tent on it doesn't make it so. You're not entitled to it unless you're there.
According to this logic, if you're out on your morning hunt I can go to your camp site, move all your stuff and set up my own site. Your not entitled to the spot because your not there.
Doesn't make sense.
If I'm out on a bivy hunt I'm not actively using the site. If I'm out scouting and have my car parked at the trailhead I'm not actively using the site. In either scenario I'm going to have my crappy tent and chair still at the site and the tent will be empty.
The woods are big enough that people can go find another site. I've had my intended spot taken before, not a big deal, I just found another one.
I get more irritated at the guys who set up the circus tents, with generators and music blasting, in the meadow I was planning on hunting.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 06, 2014, 09:00:08 AM
Feeling entitled to a spot just because you leave a tent on it doesn't make it so. You're not entitled to it unless you're there.
According to this logic, if you're out on your morning hunt I can go to your camp site, move all your stuff and set up my own site. Your not entitled to the spot because your not there.
Doesn't make sense.
If I'm out on a bivy hunt I'm not actively using the site. If I'm out scouting and have my car parked at the trailhead I'm not actively using the site. In either scenario I'm going to have my crappy tent and chair still at the site and the tent will be empty.
The woods are big enough that people can go find another site. I've had my intended spot taken before, not a big deal, I just found another one.
I get more irritated at the guys who set up the circus tents, with generators and music blasting, in the meadow I was planning on hunting.
Again, you know full well that's not what I'm talking about. But feel free to keep bringing up scenarios that aren't what anyone's talking about. :tup:
Post by: Knocker of rocks on August 06, 2014, 09:09:23 AM
Feeling entitled to a spot just because you leave a tent on it doesn't make it so. You're not entitled to it unless you're there.
According to this logic, if you're out on your morning hunt I can go to your camp site, move all your stuff and set up my own site. Your not entitled to the spot because your not there.
Doesn't make sense.
If I'm out on a bivy hunt I'm not actively using the site. If I'm out scouting and have my car parked at the trailhead I'm not actively using the site. In either scenario I'm going to have my crappy tent and chair still at the site and the tent will be empty.
The woods are big enough that people can go find another site. I've had my intended spot taken before, not a big deal, I just found another one.
I get more irritated at the guys who set up the circus tents, with generators and music blasting, in the meadow I was planning on hunting.
Again, you know full well that's not what I'm talking about. But feel free to keep bringing up scenarios that aren't what anyone's talking about. :tup:
:yeah:
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on August 06, 2014, 09:13:20 AM
Post by: MarkyMark on August 06, 2014, 09:14:46 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 06, 2014, 09:31:49 AM
The main problem is to many people going into the woods. Seemed only 10-15 yes ago this issue of holding your spot until the season started did not exist? :dunno: Great society we live in now a days. Can't trust know one and always being told by the man when and what we can do..... I'm going to go listen to Hank Jr. song Johnny Reb..... :bash:
Yep, and even more will be going onto public lands to hunt this year with WEYCO, Rayonier, Hancock, and others going pay to play everywhere. I don't think it's any reflection on the decay of society. I think more it's a reflection of increased usage by society and that rules need to be in place to make sure everyone gets a fair chance to enjoy the outdoors for which we all pay (or at least those of us who actually do pay federal income tax).
Post by: bowhunterty on August 06, 2014, 11:17:28 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 06, 2014, 11:50:19 AM
A big problem I see where I hunt is berry picker camps that are set up middle of August and don't leave until end of September. My favorite hunting camp spot is usually taken due to them. I would be worried about stuff missing before I got there if I set up camp early.
According to the response i got back, if you can show they've been there more than 14 days, you can get the ranger to make them move at least 5 miles away. Of course, once you move in, you'd better not leave camp to go hunting!
Post by: kentrek on August 06, 2014, 12:03:45 PM
i remember one year in idaho an gammie *censored* started going from camp to camp cuz we had been there past our ten or what ever days.....she got fired.....*censored*
any one of you that think this is big enough deal to complain about, i hope you to keep track of the camps that are past there allotted amount of time and confront them with the legal paper work, then post up a report on how it went for ya here on hunt wa.....there is reason why this isn't enforced
pianoman obviously you feel strongly bout this, i have nothing against ya, but this is just a part of hunting......and hunting has been around way longer than a slip of paper that some flat lander conjured up in Olympia
Post by: h20hunter on August 06, 2014, 12:08:07 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 06, 2014, 12:13:17 PM
Post by: Mfowl on August 06, 2014, 12:13:47 PM
Feeling entitled to a spot just because you leave a tent on it doesn't make it so. You're not entitled to it unless you're there.
According to this logic, if you're out on your morning hunt I can go to your camp site, move all your stuff and set up my own site. Your not entitled to the spot because your not there.
Doesn't make sense.
If I'm out on a bivy hunt I'm not actively using the site. If I'm out scouting and have my car parked at the trailhead I'm not actively using the site. In either scenario I'm going to have my crappy tent and chair still at the site and the tent will be empty.
The woods are big enough that people can go find another site. I've had my intended spot taken before, not a big deal, I just found another one.
I get more irritated at the guys who set up the circus tents, with generators and music blasting, in the meadow I was planning on hunting.
It was stated earlier in this thread that your camp cannot be vacant for more than 24hrs. Just because you leave to go hunting/scouting doesn't make your camp vacant. As long as you return sometime within 24hrs you are actively using that campsite.
Post by: kentrek on August 06, 2014, 12:17:34 PM
What are you suggesting by "an was probably lucky she didn't get killed"?
just exactly that....a few camps down it got to the point guns where drawn
an over what ?? these camps have been there for up to six generations..doing the same thing every year...its tradition....its a heritage....its something that just needs to be left alone....
Post by: kentrek on August 06, 2014, 12:19:51 PM
Wow, is it time to go hunting yet? 8)
yes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i cant wait to get back to what i do best
:tup:
Post by: h20hunter on August 06, 2014, 12:20:12 PM
Post by: Buckmark on August 06, 2014, 12:23:34 PM
I have no dog in this fight since my camp is set up 24/7 365, but just don't understand the mentality of just because something has been done for so long that it is ok. It's not... :twocents:What are you suggesting by "an was probably lucky she didn't get killed"?
just exactly that....a few camps down it got to the point guns where drawn
an over what ?? these camps have been there for up to six generations..doing the same thing every year...its tradition....its a heritage....its something that just needs to be left alone....
Post by: kentrek on August 06, 2014, 12:27:37 PM
Sorry, but suggesting that resorting to guns and violence, suggesting that a warden could be shot and killed for doing her job is insane. I don't give a rats behind if your dads pappy papp's pappy camped and hunted there. Your comments regarding the threat of violence towards those that are supposed to enforce laws have no place in society, let alone this forum.
i agree...maybe reread my post ?? i wasnt saying i condone shooting someone over this..
im just reporting what happened,it wasnt me,it wasnt even our camp....
il say it again just to be clear....i do not condone letting this rule lead to violence...but its just what happend a few camps down from ours
Post by: h20hunter on August 06, 2014, 12:52:16 PM
The law says occupied. Not leave a crappy tent and chair for a week and come back when it suits your hunting schedule. Cut and dry. Your group/dad/pappy hunted this area for a 100 years so I'm entitled also. Nope. You aren't. Wardens shouldn't have to police this. If you set up, leave your stuff for a week and are surprised that someone has moved/packed up/turned in to lost and found your stuff that you abaondoned per the law then cry me a river. Boo hoo. Yes, people should leave your stuff alone.....when you are in camp, actively using the area, and hunting, camping, or recreating in general. I don't really care if you camped there last year or the last 20. It doesn't belong to you. Follow the rules and quit thinking you are exempt from defined time periods simply because you say so.
I saw this last year when I was invited to elk camp. We showed up two days before the season to set up camp, scout, stay there, and hunt the next 5 days. There was a crappy tent and one chair in the spot we wanted. We camped else where. The entire "spot" went unused and unvisited the entire time we were there. Looking back, I'd simply set up in the same spot and stay there for 24 hours. If the owner of the tent doesn't show up....guess what....I'm packing it up nicely, keeping it damage free and safe, and turning it in. Then, I'll get my camp set up once the abandoned crap is removed and go about my merry way. Somebody shows up, makes threats or accusations....tough. Go collect your crap and leave me be.
Maybe 9 or 10 members of this forum or hunting in gereral will think very poorly of me. Thats ok....I'm not the one that feels some holier than thou exemption to the rules.
Flame on.
A little edit as I think about this. Here is where I'm coming from. I'm not trying to be a jerk, that guy, or squash your ideas of heritage and tradition. I get all that. I agree with all that. However, I didn't grow up here and have come into hunting in my adult life. Yes, I don't feel the same connection to the areas you may. However, nobody is exempt from the rules/laws simply because of tradition or the past use. I have just as much expectation to camp in a spot as you do as long as we both follow the rules.
Post by: washelkhunter on August 06, 2014, 01:34:54 PM
and try that. :bdid: :chuckle:
If you dont want to be bothered just block the entry with your truck.
Post by: Jacque on August 06, 2014, 01:44:59 PM
Post by: h20hunter on August 06, 2014, 01:48:27 PM
If you dont want to be bothered just block the entry with your truck.
Oh....now thats just onery! :stirthepot:
Post by: washelkhunter on August 06, 2014, 01:52:12 PM
:chuckle: it does keep those late arrivers moving down the road.
If you dont want to be bothered just block the entry with your truck.
Oh....now thats just onery! :stirthepot:
Post by: kentrek on August 06, 2014, 01:54:13 PM
I think theres far greater issues in the hunting world than a hunter not returning to his camp for more than a few days or having a camp set up a week in advanced
Just my opinion... :tup:
Post by: bearpaw on August 06, 2014, 01:55:58 PM
Post by: hrd2fnd on August 06, 2014, 02:00:23 PM
Post by: baker5150 on August 06, 2014, 03:08:12 PM
3 years ago we rolled into camp 2 days early as usual and someone was in our usual spot. So we talked to them for a bit and ended up getting invited to camp there with them. It ended up being great. We shared a fire, some beer and a ton of stories. Never saw them again since that season but If they happen to be there this year, I think it would make Elk camp that much better.
I just can't imagine getting all upset and hostile towards someone for such a ridiculous reason. Life is too short and there are tons of other places to set up camp.
Now if I caught you in my stand......
Post by: Buckmark on August 06, 2014, 03:16:13 PM
If its on public land and you just left it there i'm using it, you should of gotten up earlier.... :chuckle:
Now if I caught you in my stand......
Post by: northcoast on August 07, 2014, 07:37:30 AM
The tradition in where people camp is something I respect greatly. We camp in a spot that my buddies family has been in for 4 generations now. There are other camps on the same road and area we camp that are there every year as well. We would never think to take their spot and they feel the same about ours.
3 years ago we rolled into camp 2 days early as usual and someone was in our usual spot. So we talked to them for a bit and ended up getting invited to camp there with them. It ended up being great. We shared a fire, some beer and a ton of stories. Never saw them again since that season but If they happen to be there this year, I think it would make Elk camp that much better.
I just can't imagine getting all upset and hostile towards someone for such a ridiculous reason. Life is too short and there are tons of other places to set up camp.
Now if I caught you in my stand......
:yeah:
It's the same in our area. Most everybody knows each other and we always look out for the other. Last year was the self-declared the final season for one of the old timers at another site. At almost 80 he was finally giving up hunting because he couldn't pull the bow back and getting in and out of his stand was too difficult. He even gave my cousin his tree stand since he had helped him set it up almost every year for the last decade.
Not saying any of us are "entitled" to our camp site because of tradition but tradition does play a big role in where we camp and hunt. That is why we go and set up camp early so we can keep that tradition going.
Post by: baker5150 on August 07, 2014, 08:13:51 AM
If its on public land and you just left it there i'm using it, you should of gotten up earlier.... :chuckle:
Now if I caught you in my stand......
>:(
Post by: coachcw on August 07, 2014, 09:26:24 AM
Post by: rtspring on August 07, 2014, 09:58:55 AM
I hear a bunch of whining, grow up act like adults.
I set my camp up early, if you want your spot set up camp and go from there.
Argue, argue is all hunters do these days!
Post by: washelkhunter on August 07, 2014, 10:03:52 AM
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on August 07, 2014, 10:07:14 AM
If its on public land and you just left it there i'm using it, you should of gotten up earlier.... :chuckle:
Now if I caught you in my stand......
How does the law state if the owner of the tree stand started chopping the tree down as the public intrudent was sitting in the owners stand?
Post by: coachcw on August 07, 2014, 10:11:02 AM
A crappy tent and an old chair is no diffrent then your trail cams! If its not your leave it the hell alone... There is enough camp spots to go around.oh shut up ! :chuckle:
I hear a bunch of whining, grow up act like adults.
I set my camp up early, if you want your spot set up camp and go from there.
Argue, argue is all hunters do these days!
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 07, 2014, 10:14:45 AM
A crappy tent and an old chair is no diffrent then your trail cams! If its not your leave it the hell alone... There is enough camp spots to go around.
I hear a bunch of whining, grow up act like adults.
I set my camp up early, if you want your spot set up camp and go from there.
Argue, argue is all hunters do these days!
Actually, there is an established difference between cams and abandoned tents and chairs in the rules. You may not see the difference, but the NFS sees the difference. I have to respectfully disagree with you, Kurt. If you're not staying there, you don't get to hold the spot. It's greedy, it's entitled, and it's against the rules that keep everyone on equal ground, ground that each of us pay for. This is no different than putting a reserved sign on a public park bench so that you and no one else can use it at lunch, or before lunch or after lunch. I don't care if you've eaten on that park bench for 20 years. People may recognize you when you come and move off the park bench out of courtesy. But that's up to them. You can't reserve it. Period.
Post by: h20hunter on August 07, 2014, 10:15:53 AM
Post by: Bean Counter on August 07, 2014, 10:19:39 AM
A crappy tent and an old chair is no diffrent then your trail cams! If its not your leave it the hell alone...
Actually, it's NOT the same. A trail cam secured to a tree is in it's implied state of usage. The law states that you must use the site for camping within the last 24 hours. Would my car parked in a parking lot be abandoned property?
Post by: Bean Counter on August 07, 2014, 10:25:27 AM
If its on public land and you just left it there i'm using it, you should of gotten up earlier.... :chuckle:
Now if I caught you in my stand......
>:(
In my state (not WA) the law specifically states that putting up a ground blind over water doesn't reserve that spot for you. First come, first served, EVERY HUNTING DAY. I once arrived first to commonly used tank on public land where there is only one logical spot to put a ground blind and Lo and behold there was a blind that morning. I quietly disassembled the blind and tossed it aside, set up my own ground blind and say there for the day. In the process of taking it apart I accidentally broke one of the poles. If the owner had shown up it might have gotten interesting because I had no intention of reimbursing him or her for the damage. Had I been borrowing the tent It would have been a different story.
Otoh I hunted over a tank this January where there was a blind set up a few days prior but wasn't blocking where I wanted to hunt so I left it be. Still would have told the dude to get lost had he shown up later but he never did.
Post by: kentrek on August 07, 2014, 10:29:19 AM
Post by: turkeyfeather on August 07, 2014, 11:20:04 AM
Post by: Buckmark on August 07, 2014, 11:28:02 AM
Might be his tree stand but not his tree, we all own the trees :tree1:, and if he wishes to chop it down does he have the permit to do it? And if so does said tree fall under the rules, correct species, diameter, standing dead, 300ft or less from the road :dunno: :chuckle:If its on public land and you just left it there i'm using it, you should of gotten up earlier.... :chuckle:
Now if I caught you in my stand......
How does the law state if the owner of the tree stand started chopping the tree down as the public intrudent was sitting in the owners stand?
Post by: h20hunter on August 07, 2014, 12:16:03 PM
Wow, the arrogance displayed here in this topic is unbelievable. :bash:
Arrogance is an interesting term. I'd say also very accurate depending on which side of the discussion you are on. For the sake of the discussion let me ask this. I'm going to use Kurt, Rtspring, ONLY AS A REPRESENTATIVE OF ONE SIDE of the discussion. I'll use myself for the other side. Remember, I'm only using the two of us as a discussion. I'm not implying anything what so ever.
So, with that in mind. If Rt has camped in one area with friends and family for years on end in one spot. There are stories, tales of good and bad, toasts made, memories rehashed...everything that makes year after year gathering great. They show up a week early, set up camp, head back to work for the rest of the week, come back and hunt. This has been done for many years rarely missing a chance to put up camp in the same spot. Is Rt the arrogant one for feeling he and his group have claim to this spot? Besides, they have all the words to back that claim up that we like to talk about. Heritage. History. Tradition. Kurt has a passion for the area, his hunting family, and the spot they call camp year after year.
Other side of the coin. I'm a newbie. I really am and will be for the discussion. I don't have a chance to set up camp a week early. No big deal. I look up the regs and head out two days before season starts. I want to start traditions. I want to develop a long history with the area. I want to earn those stories that will be told around the fire in later years. Am I the arrogant one think that I have just as much of a right to camp there if I follow the rules? Am I the arrogant one that thinks regardless of how long your tradition has gone on I have just as much right to begin my own?
See, for me. There is no right answer once we get into opinions. There are rules that are an attempt, whether they succeed or not, to protect those that are on either side and simply want to follow the rules. A real possiblity I see down the road is what nobody wants. I can see the WDFW, DNR, whomever, allocation campsites based on a lottery. Off site camping will be strictly enforced and everyones traditions, whether they are first year or 20 years old, will be gone. I agree fully with support, continuing, and fighting for the traditions and heritage that fuel your passion. However, it can not be done at the expense of those that want to utilize the same resources and do it by the book.
Post by: turkeyfeather on August 07, 2014, 12:34:29 PM
Post by: rtspring on August 07, 2014, 01:19:31 PM
People break laws all the time, that dont give you the authority to discard property. So a chair hasnt been used in three days or one hour. Big deal. Find another spot.
Im guessing this is mostly a wetside deal?
And Coach, Im only packing backstraps out now and then heading home, with said backstraps!!!!
Post by: h20hunter on August 07, 2014, 01:26:40 PM
If you feel the need to destroy or tamper with anyones personal property for your own personal gain, you have issues. Thats what Im saying.
People break laws all the time, that dont give you the authority to discard property. So a chair hasnt been used in three days or one hour. Big deal. Find another spot.
Im guessing this is mostly a wetside deal?
And Coach, Im only packing backstraps out now and then heading home, with said backstraps!!!!
Not at all. I have not said destroy or discard. If it is abaonded it should be taken care of so the owner can claim it at a later date. I'm not making the rules. I'm just asking for discussion to show why some don't need to follow them. I don't see any east/west angle to the discussion. Rules that are in place apply to all sportsmen and women regardless of where the tag designation says they will be hunting.
Big deal, find another spot. Okay....so, as spots become limited where do we draw the line. If I know one group shows up a week ahead why should I not then show up two weekds ahead and put up a basic tent two weeks, or three weeks ahead. See, now that I've one upped on group another can do the same to me. Nobody wins.
Regarding personal gain. If one group has camped in a spot for one year, ten, or twenty, why is their "personal gain" more important than mine if I want to follow the rules in place and have access to the spot?
Post by: MADMAX on August 07, 2014, 01:41:10 PM
I rank my choices in my head and am sure I can see everyone of them before I pull my trailer in somewhere that I maybe cant turn around in when I come in a couple days before season.
If there a tent there already then its occupied, if theres a lawn chair, it gets used and left there, if theres an established outhouse its a bonus round and throw in a meat pole and a campfire ring I'm golden.
Its public land.
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 07, 2014, 01:50:08 PM
That includes camping too.
If you camp where you hunt, you are doing it wrong :) unless it's not a good spot to hunt in which case, again, you're doing it wrong.
Post by: Bean Counter on August 07, 2014, 03:50:33 PM
...
People break laws all the time, that dont give you the authority to discard property. So a chair hasnt been used in three days or one hour. Big deal. Find another spot.
...
I guess it depends on applicable laws. To return to my ground blind example: an unattended ground blind in my state is considered abandoned property. That is the LAW. It says that in the regs. I can legally take the blinds I find but don't. But just moving them out of my way is enough to "have issues" in your book because its for my gain (to hunt the area that I got to first--as the law states). :dunno:
Post by: turkeyfeather on August 07, 2014, 04:58:19 PM
If you feel the need to destroy or tamper with anyones personal property for your own personal gain, you have issues. Thats what Im saying.
People break laws all the time, that dont give you the authority to discard property. So a chair hasnt been used in three days or one hour. Big deal. Find another spot.
Im guessing this is mostly a wetside deal?
And Coach, Im only packing backstraps out now and then heading home, with said backstraps!!!!
Never said anything about destroying any property. It's just cleaning up litter that has been left to keep of forests as they are supposed to be. Ever heard of "leave only footprints". A chair that has been left in the woods is a big deal or there wouldn't have been a law put in place to deal with it. Lastly, if it's no big deal to find another spot then you will have no problem with that when you arrive to camp AND hunt. :tup:
Post by: Jacque on August 07, 2014, 06:03:27 PM
I've never had not had a private place to hunt deer or elk in the NE corner :dunno:Weird success within the regulations doesn't seem wrong, maybe just differing styles.
That includes camping too.
If you camp where you hunt, you are doing it wrong :) unless it's not a good spot to hunt in which case, again, you're doing it wrong.
Post by: bowhuntersd on August 09, 2014, 09:06:01 PM
Wow, the arrogance displayed here in this topic is unbelievable. :bash:
I second that. The audacity some people have is insane. I don't get it. Is it that important to camp in THAT SPOT? :dunno:
Post by: Hunter Dug on August 11, 2014, 09:22:10 AM
Someone please show me where in this government document is says you have to occupy the camp site. I don't care what any FS guys says about this or that because 9/10 times they don't now their back side from a hole in the ground and expect you to believe what they say is true. What I see and am reading is a bunch of guys making up rules that they heard from someone else. The bottom line is this document by the Forest service/government does not even remotely state that you have to occupy the camp sight within a 24 hour period. So for you early camp guys print this off and bring it with you.
Post by: washelkhunter on August 11, 2014, 09:37:28 AM
Post by: BetoBow on August 11, 2014, 09:44:14 AM
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=352-32-030 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=352-32-030)
Post by: Hunter Dug on August 11, 2014, 09:58:35 AM
Why dont you just drive over to the GPNF hdqs and talk to them, theyll set you straight. Go in there huffin and puffin, bangin on the counter top and tell those idjuts theys morons. Pianoman stated the facts, and hes rarely if ever mistaken.
I don't need to stop by the GNFS I have the same pamphlet they are going to give me right here. And again it in no way shape or form states the campsite has to be occupied.
Post by: h20hunter on August 11, 2014, 10:01:48 AM
•Campers may stay up to 14 consecutive days within a 21-day period. Campers may not stay in the National Forests in excess of 30 days total in a calendar year.
•At least one person must occupy a camping area during the first night after camping equipment has been set up. Camping equipment cannot be left unattended for more than 24 hours.
:dunno:
Post by: Hunter Dug on August 11, 2014, 10:07:22 AM
http://thenationalforests.com/the-national-forests/national-forest-camping-rules.html (http://thenationalforests.com/the-national-forests/national-forest-camping-rules.html)
•Campers may stay up to 14 consecutive days within a 21-day period. Campers may not stay in the National Forests in excess of 30 days total in a calendar year.
•At least one person must occupy a camping area during the first night after camping equipment has been set up. Camping equipment cannot be left unattended for more than 24 hours.
:dunno:
The regulation you posted are from 2000. The rules I quoted were from 2008. :chuckle:
Post by: Hunter Dug on August 11, 2014, 10:14:31 AM
This might help
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=352-32-030 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=352-32-030)
The laws you quoted are for state parks and state land, we are talking about NF which is federal land. whole different animal.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 11, 2014, 10:15:57 AM
How about this scenario: You've been using the same campsite for 20 years. Three generations of hunters are in your party and it's a great group. You get up to the place the weekend before to "reserve" your spot with a couple of tents and chairs. When you get up there, someone else has the whole place taken with tents and chairs already - there's absolutely no room or place to set up your traditional 20-year camp without removing the tents. No one's around and they won't be, either. You look in the tents and they're uninhabited, in fact a squirrel has taken up residence in one of them. Now, how do you feel about holding spots? I guess the tent's on the other spot now, huh?
Post by: northcoast on August 11, 2014, 10:39:28 AM
http://thenationalforests.com/the-national-forests/national-forest-camping-rules.html (http://thenationalforests.com/the-national-forests/national-forest-camping-rules.html)
•At least one person must occupy a camping area during the first night after camping equipment has been set up. Camping equipment cannot be left unattended for more than 24 hours.
:dunno:
That is only for developed recreation areas (i.e. pay campgrounds). Not sure why the "anti dummy camp" guys keep trying to twist things so they don't look like jackholes for messing with people's stuff.
If you take my stuff and set up your own camp, that's theft.
If you like the spot and think it's "abandoned" then report it but know this...the FSO can't remove my stuff until 5 days after a written notice if he knows my name and address. If he doesn't know who's stuff it is then he/she has to wait 3 days after public notice.
Code of Federal Regulation Title 36 Part 262.12 (Current as of 7/31/2014)
(a) Automobiles or other vehicles, trailers, boats, and camping equipment and other inanimate personal property on National Forest System lands without the authorization of a Forest officer which are not removed therefrom within the prescribed period after a warning notice as provided in this regulation may be impounded by a Forest officer. Whenever such Forest officer knows the name and address of the owner, such impoundment may be effected at any time five days after the date that written notice of the trespass is mailed by registered mail or delivered to such owner.
(b) If the local Forest Officer does not know the name and address of the owner of property in trespass, impoundment may be effected at any time 72 hours after a notice of intention to impound the property in trespass is posted in at least one place in the vicinity of the property.
If someone get's there before me and takes the spot I was planning on camping at, oh well, that's their right. Bottom line is 14 days is the limit and then you need to move 5 miles. That's it.
Post by: Hunter Dug on August 11, 2014, 10:41:32 AM
Is it hunting season yet? I hope it comes soon before the hunters in here start using the emoticons to murder each other in cyberspace. Oh the carnage! :hunter: :archery_smiley: :violent1: :mgun: :mgun2: :bfg:
How about this scenario: You've been using the same campsite for 20 years. Three generations of hunters are in your party and it's a great group. You get up to the place the weekend before to "reserve" your spot with a couple of tents and chairs. When you get up there, someone else has the whole place taken with tents and chairs already - there's absolutely no room or place to set up your traditional 20-year camp without removing the tents. No one's around and they won't be, either. You look in the tents and they're uninhabited, in fact a squirrel has taken up residence in one of them. Now, how do you feel about holding spots? I guess the tent's on the other spot now, huh?
I would feel the same way I always feel every year when going to set up camp. If its got tents and chairs then im !#$% out of luck and find a new one. I counted 3 pup tents and a chair last year and it didn't bother me a bit and that was just on the road we camp.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 11, 2014, 10:49:56 AM
http://thenationalforests.com/the-national-forests/national-forest-camping-rules.html (http://thenationalforests.com/the-national-forests/national-forest-camping-rules.html)
•At least one person must occupy a camping area during the first night after camping equipment has been set up. Camping equipment cannot be left unattended for more than 24 hours.
:dunno:
That is only for developed recreation areas (i.e. pay campgrounds). Not sure why the "anti dummy camp" guys keep trying to twist things so they don't look like jackholes for messing with people's stuff.
If you take my stuff and set up your own camp, that's theft.
If you like the spot and think it's "abandoned" then report it but know this...the FSO can't remove my stuff until 5 days after a written notice if he knows my name and address. If he doesn't know who's stuff it is then he/she has to wait 3 days after public notice.
Code of Federal Regulation Title 36 Part 262.12 (Current as of 7/31/2014)
(a) Automobiles or other vehicles, trailers, boats, and camping equipment and other inanimate personal property on National Forest System lands without the authorization of a Forest officer which are not removed therefrom within the prescribed period after a warning notice as provided in this regulation may be impounded by a Forest officer. Whenever such Forest officer knows the name and address of the owner, such impoundment may be effected at any time five days after the date that written notice of the trespass is mailed by registered mail or delivered to such owner.
(b) If the local Forest Officer does not know the name and address of the owner of property in trespass, impoundment may be effected at any time 72 hours after a notice of intention to impound the property in trespass is posted in at least one place in the vicinity of the property.
If someone get's there before me and takes the spot I was planning on camping at, oh well, that's their right. Bottom line is 14 days is the limit and then you need to move 5 miles. That's it.
I posted the email response I got from the NFS regarding abandoned campsites. I actually copied and pasted without "twisting" anything. And, like I said, I'm not removing anything.
I get that a traditional spot is just that. It's just that an expectation of having it year after year without someone else ever being able to use it is unreasonable - no one is entitled to a specific piece of public land. If you want a space like that, you have to buy some land.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 11, 2014, 10:51:41 AM
http://thenationalforests.com/the-national-forests/national-forest-camping-rules.html (http://thenationalforests.com/the-national-forests/national-forest-camping-rules.html)
•Campers may stay up to 14 consecutive days within a 21-day period. Campers may not stay in the National Forests in excess of 30 days total in a calendar year.
•At least one person must occupy a camping area during the first night after camping equipment has been set up. Camping equipment cannot be left unattended for more than 24 hours.
:dunno:
The regulation you posted are from 2000. The rules I quoted were from 2008. :chuckle:
In addition to what northcoast points to . . . .
Hunter Dug, you may be on to something, but you may not. While looking into the CFRs for the "24 hour" rule, the only place that I can find a specific listing is for Developed Recreation Sites. You typically know these as the ones with signs, improvements, fire rings, etc.
36 CFR 261.16 - Developed Recreation Sites.
36 CFR 261.16 - Developed Recreation Sites. (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/search/pagedetails.action?collectionCode=CFR&searchPath=Title+36%2FChapter+II%2FPart+261%2FSubpart+A&granuleId=CFR-2012-title36-vol2-part261-subpartA&packageId=CFR-2012-title36-vol2&oldPath=Title+36%2FChapter+II%2FPart+261%2FSubpart+B&fromPageDetails=true&collapse=true&ycord=1139&browsePath=Title+36%2FChapter+II%2FPart+261%2FSubpart+A&fromBrowse=true)
However, there are some things to note.
1. You are still subject to the definitions of "camping," which requires overnight occupancy,
36 CFR § 261.2 ("Camping means the temporary use of National Forest System lands for the purpose of overnight occupancy without a permanently-fixed structure." ), and abandoning personal property, 36 CFR § 261.10 ("The following are prohibited: . . . . (e) Abandoning any personal property . . . .")
§ 261.2 Definitions
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title36-vol2/pdf/CFR-2012-title36-vol2-sec261-2.pdf (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title36-vol2/pdf/CFR-2012-title36-vol2-sec261-2.pdf)
§ 261.10 Occupancy and use
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title36-vol2/pdf/CFR-2012-title36-vol2-sec261-10.pdf (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title36-vol2/pdf/CFR-2012-title36-vol2-sec261-10.pdf)
2. Despite the "24 hour" limitation being called out specifically for Developed Recreation Sites in the CFR, the CFR also allows and provides for such limitations to be applied to dispersed camping as well.
36 CFR § 261.50 - Prohibitions in Areas Designated by Order
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title36-vol2/pdf/CFR-2012-title36-vol2-part261-subpartB.pdf (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title36-vol2/pdf/CFR-2012-title36-vol2-part261-subpartB.pdf)
3. Based on the above, the best way to determine if there is such a "24 hour" limitation is to contact the ranger district for the area and ask them to cite to authority if they can to ensure that they are not simply misconstruing the limitation for the Developed Recreation Sites.
4. If you just want to plead ignorance or read into the above whatever you want to justify reserving a national forest spot for yourself that you are not occupying, despite what the regulations require, that is your choice, and all the possibilities (including unwelcome neighbors, theft, loss, damage, removal as abandoned property, fines, disappointment, hurt feelings, etc.) are risks you should happily accept.
Re: http://thenationalforests.com/the-national-forests/national-forest-camping-rules.html (http://thenationalforests.com/the-national-forests/national-forest-camping-rules.html) is not an official source, and I have some suspicion that it is not trustworthy based on this and based on the fact that the domain registrant cannot be determined. That is, there is no reason to trust this site any more than any random word of an internet stranger.
Post by: washelkhunter on August 11, 2014, 10:53:56 AM
Post by: Elkterd on August 11, 2014, 10:55:20 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on August 11, 2014, 11:05:49 AM
Post by: northcoast on August 11, 2014, 11:26:20 AM
What's annoying about this whole dummy camp issue is that the site holders actually believe the rest of us are stupid enough to just buzz off while they're snug in their beds down in jerksville.
I don't think stupid is the word. I would substitute it with honest, respectful, or decent.
Post by: Bean Counter on August 11, 2014, 12:25:04 PM
I am planning on going to costco here next week so I think I am going to go put a little remote control car in the parking spot closest to the front door so that it is available when I am ready to use it. After all, I have been parking in this spot for years now so I feel I take precedence over people who want to use between now and then:lol4:
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on August 11, 2014, 12:31:11 PM
What's annoying about this whole dummy camp issue is that the site holders actually believe the rest of us are stupid enough to just buzz off while they're snug in their beds down in jerksville.
Jerksville. :dunno: Where's that at?
Post by: h20hunter on August 11, 2014, 12:33:00 PM
:dunno:
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 11, 2014, 12:41:45 PM
Jerksville (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Washington+State+Governor%27s+Mansion,+Capitol+Grounds,+Olympia,+WA+98501/%27%27/@47.0354385,-122.974875,12z/data=)
Post by: vandeman17 on August 11, 2014, 12:44:20 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on August 11, 2014, 12:52:08 PM
I don't setup camp early to claim any specific spot...but I do setup the weekend prior so all the work is done when I come back for hunting season. Is that just as wrong?
Post by: vandeman17 on August 11, 2014, 12:55:06 PM
What about the guys that setup a full camp to maximize their hunting time? Is there a difference between them and the guys that setup a $2 folding chair and tent? I am guilty of the former, but not the latter :chuckle:
I don't setup camp early to claim any specific spot...but I do setup the weekend prior so all the work is done when I come back for hunting season. Is that just as wrong?
That is what I personally am on the fence about. At least that shows some effort and thought behind the move. Though they are technically saving a spot, they are doing it for a purpose where as the people that just toss down a dummy camp are doing it for no other reason then to hold the spot.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 11, 2014, 12:57:28 PM
What about the guys that setup a full camp to maximize their hunting time? Is there a difference between them and the guys that setup a $2 folding chair and tent? I am guilty of the former, but not the latter :chuckle:
I don't setup camp early to claim any specific spot...but I do setup the weekend prior so all the work is done when I come back for hunting season. Is that just as wrong?
If you claim my spot, it's wrong. If you claim someone else's, I don't care. :chuckle:
Post by: spin05 on August 11, 2014, 11:58:30 PM
Post by: bowhuntersd on August 12, 2014, 09:00:49 PM
How about this scenario: You've been using the same campsite for 20 years. Three generations of hunters are in your party and it's a great group. You get up to the place the weekend before to "reserve" your spot with a couple of tents and chairs. When you get up there, someone else has the whole place taken with tents and chairs already - there's absolutely no room or place to set up your traditional 20-year camp without removing the tents. No one's around and they won't be, either. You look in the tents and they're uninhabited, in fact a squirrel has taken up residence in one of them. Now, how do you feel about holding spots? I guess the tent's on the other spot now, huh?
[/quote]
I guess I don't understand the question. You are there to do the same thing, as you state "You get up to the place the weekend before to "reserve" your spot with a couple of tents and chairs." Sounds like they just beat you at your own game. 3 generations doesn't make it "Your" spot. I was probably someone elses 3 generation camp before your 2 generations "took it over".
Better find a new spot for future generations.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 12, 2014, 09:07:44 PM
Sounds like they just beat you at your own game. 3 generations doesn't make it "Your" spot.
I think that was the point.
Post by: sakoshooter on August 12, 2014, 09:24:43 PM
I don't mind people leaving their camps a few days to maybe a week or two before their hunt. My issue is if they get upset if their stuff gets stolen or if someone moved their stuff. I view it as hanging trail cameras. I know that by leaving them out, they are at risk of either being messed with or stolen and that is a risk I accept.How would you know they aren't still actively camping there? Maybe they are out scouting for the day. If I setup a camp, I shouldn't have to sit there 24/7 cause some jackwagon thinks it is ok to steal or move my stuff should it be left unattended... :twocents:
Agreed.
If the time limit was adhered to by folks and enforced by LEO, problems like above would not arise. Either way, if it's not yours keep your friggin hands off it.
Post by: bowguy on August 12, 2014, 10:31:34 PM
Post by: ghosthunter on August 12, 2014, 11:15:48 PM
So how does one know if someone is there or not? I've read and been following the stupidity of some peoples comments on here. For instance early archery I leave camp an hour before light and stay out all day and usually get back about hour to hour and a half after light is my camp abandoned? To some of you it is. I have my travel trailer setup and I'm gonna spike camp it for a couple days are one of you so called jack wagons gonna tow my truck trailer and quad out to the road and put ur camp in? Come on people if someone's camp is there leave it alone. Who's to judge one persons camp? We've all been thru seasons where all one could afford was a tarp a goodwill tent and a plastic bucket for a chair so why the hell should that guys camp be moved for yours. Maybe he went for ice or home for a shower or maybe had to have a buddy drop him off and will be back in a few days with the truck so he has no ride. LEAVE STUFF ALONE FIND A NEW SPOT!:yeah:
Listen the way I look at it unless you have a badge , hands off.
I set up camp and have left to run home to pick up a grandson, or attend a obligation . And come right back.Tough if someone doesn't like it.
I come back and you have moved my camp someone will loose their hunt because I will see to it you do not enjoy the camp I had first.
I have had folks beat me to a spot lots of time. I just adapt.
Guys who say they will move camps are just looking to be jack wagons.
Get over yourself geeeez.
Post by: kentrek on August 12, 2014, 11:30:08 PM
So how does one know if someone is there or not? I've read and been following the stupidity of some peoples comments on here. For instance early archery I leave camp an hour before light and stay out all day and usually get back about hour to hour and a half after light is my camp abandoned? To some of you it is. I have my travel trailer setup and I'm gonna spike camp it for a couple days are one of you so called jack wagons gonna tow my truck trailer and quad out to the road and put ur camp in? Come on people if someone's camp is there leave it alone. Who's to judge one persons camp? We've all been thru seasons where all one could afford was a tarp a goodwill tent and a plastic bucket for a chair so why the hell should that guys camp be moved for yours. Maybe he went for ice or home for a shower or maybe had to have a buddy drop him off and will be back in a few days with the truck so he has no ride. LEAVE STUFF ALONE FIND A NEW SPOT!:yeah:
Listen the way I look at it unless you have a badge , hands off.
I set up camp and have left to run home to pick up a grandson, or attend a obligation . And come right back.Tough if someone doesn't like it.
I come back and you have moved my camp someone will loose their hunt because I will see to it you do not enjoy the camp I had first.
I have had folks beat me to a spot lots of time. I just adapt.
Guys who say they will move camps are just looking to be jack wagons.
Get over yourself geeeez.
:yeah:
Post by: washelkhunter on August 13, 2014, 12:13:29 AM
So how does one know if someone is there or not? I've read and been following the stupidity of some peoples comments on here. For instance early archery I leave camp an hour before light and stay out all day and usually get back about hour to hour and a half after light is my camp abandoned? To some of you it is. I have my travel trailer setup and I'm gonna spike camp it for a couple days are one of you so called jack wagons gonna tow my truck trailer and quad out to the road and put ur camp in? Come on people if someone's camp is there leave it alone. Who's to judge one persons camp? We've all been thru seasons where all one could afford was a tarp a goodwill tent and a plastic bucket for a chair so why the hell should that guys camp be moved for yours. Maybe he went for ice or home for a shower or maybe had to have a buddy drop him off and will be back in a few days with the truck so he has no ride. LEAVE STUFF ALONE FIND A NEW SPOT!:yeah:
Listen the way I look at it unless you have a badge , hands off.
I set up camp and have left to run home to pick up a grandson, or attend a obligation . And come right back.Tough if someone doesn't like it.
I come back and you have moved my camp someone will loose their hunt because I will see to it you do not enjoy the camp I had first.
I have had folks beat me to a spot lots of time. I just adapt.
Guys who say they will move camps are just looking to be jack wagons.
Get over yourself geeeez.
The issue is with the dummy camps, not a full blown everyone knows you're there setup. Why is this hard to comprehend? :dunno:
Post by: huntnnw on August 13, 2014, 01:22:09 AM
Post by: lee on August 13, 2014, 05:23:37 AM
So how does one know if someone is there or not? I've read and been following the stupidity of some peoples comments on here. For instance early archery I leave camp an hour before light and stay out all day and usually get back about hour to hour and a half after light is my camp abandoned? To some of you it is. I have my travel trailer setup and I'm gonna spike camp it for a couple days are one of you so called jack wagons gonna tow my truck trailer and quad out to the road and put ur camp in? Come on people if someone's camp is there leave it alone. Who's to judge one persons camp? We've all been thru seasons where all one could afford was a tarp a goodwill tent and a plastic bucket for a chair so why the hell should that guys camp be moved for yours. Maybe he went for ice or home for a shower or maybe had to have a buddy drop him off and will be back in a few days with the truck so he has no ride. LEAVE STUFF ALONE FIND A NEW SPOT!:yeah:
Listen the way I look at it unless you have a badge , hands off.
I set up camp and have left to run home to pick up a grandson, or attend a obligation . And come right back.Tough if someone doesn't like it.
I come back and you have moved my camp someone will loose their hunt because I will see to it you do not enjoy the camp I had first.
I have had folks beat me to a spot lots of time. I just adapt.
Guys who say they will move camps are just looking to be jack wagons.
Get over yourself geeeez.
The issue is with the dummy camps, not a full blown everyone knows you're there setup. Why is this hard to comprehend? :dunno:
:yeah: Thank you!!!!!!!!
Post by: bowguy on August 13, 2014, 05:51:34 AM
Post by: turkeyfeather on August 13, 2014, 07:02:41 AM
Exactly, I think everyone is smart enough to know the difference between a real camp and a dummy camp.So how does one know if someone is there or not? I've read and been following the stupidity of some peoples comments on here. For instance early archery I leave camp an hour before light and stay out all day and usually get back about hour to hour and a half after light is my camp abandoned? To some of you it is. I have my travel trailer setup and I'm gonna spike camp it for a couple days are one of you so called jack wagons gonna tow my truck trailer and quad out to the road and put ur camp in? Come on people if someone's camp is there leave it alone. Who's to judge one persons camp? We've all been thru seasons where all one could afford was a tarp a goodwill tent and a plastic bucket for a chair so why the hell should that guys camp be moved for yours. Maybe he went for ice or home for a shower or maybe had to have a buddy drop him off and will be back in a few days with the truck so he has no ride. LEAVE STUFF ALONE FIND A NEW SPOT!:yeah:
Listen the way I look at it unless you have a badge , hands off.
I set up camp and have left to run home to pick up a grandson, or attend a obligation . And come right back.Tough if someone doesn't like it.
I come back and you have moved my camp someone will loose their hunt because I will see to it you do not enjoy the camp I had first.
I have had folks beat me to a spot lots of time. I just adapt.
Guys who say they will move camps are just looking to be jack wagons.
Get over yourself geeeez.
The issue is with the dummy camps, not a full blown everyone knows you're there setup. Why is this hard to comprehend? :dunno:
Post by: Jingles on August 13, 2014, 08:06:39 AM
Yes I moved their tent to a spot less than 100 feet away to a tent site that was more appropriate for the size of their tent and put my tent up. along with the cot,, sleeping bag, the kitchen boxes and my dry food boxes, chair and table basically my complete camp; yes it is and was a PITA but I'm also riding in and out still picking rocks out of the trail in the rock slide areas while also continuing to locate an old trail that leads higher up the ridge line where I actually want to camp but being a mere human of 65 years of age and alone, and being treated for a form of Leukemia I can only do so much in so much time. Now by next year, if still physically able, I hope to have this old trail located and cleared of debris and they can have the current site.
This is not an easy site to get to as the first 2 miles are a steady incline from about 1800' to 2500' then the next 2 miles increase in elevation from 2500 to 5300' final mile climbs from 5300 feet to 5965 at camp site.
Hell if someone actually shows up at the Dummy site so be it we might hit it off and then we might not if they are totally Jackwagons screw it I'm 65 suffering from Leukemia and have lived a good life so far, can't think of a better place to end it than the beauty of where I have my camp but I sure won't go alone
Post by: SCRUBS on August 13, 2014, 08:32:50 AM
What's annoying about this whole dummy camp issue is that the site holders actually believe the rest of us are stupid enough to just buzz off while they're snug in their beds down in jerksville.
Jerksville. :dunno: Where's that at?
It`s where the Jackwagons live......
Post by: baker5150 on August 13, 2014, 08:54:08 AM
I'm just curious if anyone has lost their favorite spot to a dummy camp, or maybe their dummy camp has been removed (if anyones willing to admit to it).
Post by: Broken Arrow on August 13, 2014, 08:54:17 AM
Post by: h20hunter on August 13, 2014, 09:04:07 AM
Has this issue ever effected anyone on here?
I'm just curious if anyone has lost their favorite spot to a dummy camp, or maybe their dummy camp has been removed (if anyones willing to admit to it).
Just last year. Elk camp. We showed up 3 days before season. One lawn chair and a pos tent. The entire site went unused the entire time we were there. No traffic in or out. Next time the tent and chair will get relocated.
Post by: kentrek on August 13, 2014, 09:17:02 AM
When not spiked out i sleep in a pretty cheapo tent during september...
Post by: et1702 on August 13, 2014, 09:29:07 AM
So how does one know if someone is there or not? I've read and been following the stupidity of some peoples comments on here. For instance early archery I leave camp an hour before light and stay out all day and usually get back about hour to hour and a half after light is my camp abandoned? To some of you it is. I have my travel trailer setup and I'm gonna spike camp it for a couple days are one of you so called jack wagons gonna tow my truck trailer and quad out to the road and put ur camp in? Come on people if someone's camp is there leave it alone. Who's to judge one persons camp? We've all been thru seasons where all one could afford was a tarp a goodwill tent and a plastic bucket for a chair so why the hell should that guys camp be moved for yours. Maybe he went for ice or home for a shower or maybe had to have a buddy drop him off and will be back in a few days with the truck so he has no ride. LEAVE STUFF ALONE FIND A NEW SPOT!:yeah:
Listen the way I look at it unless you have a badge , hands off.
I set up camp and have left to run home to pick up a grandson, or attend a obligation . And come right back.Tough if someone doesn't like it.
I come back and you have moved my camp someone will loose their hunt because I will see to it you do not enjoy the camp I had first.
I have had folks beat me to a spot lots of time. I just adapt.
Guys who say they will move camps are just looking to be jack wagons.
Get over yourself geeeez.
The issue is with the dummy camps, not a full blown everyone knows you're there setup. Why is this hard to comprehend? :dunno:
Why is there any difference? If you drag your trailer over the weekend before, set it up and leave: or a dummy tent & Chair. No difference I can see. Either way you are reserving your spot for opening weekend.
ET
Post by: turkeyfeather on August 13, 2014, 09:42:07 AM
There is the key word there "reserving". There are no reservations on NF land.So how does one know if someone is there or not? I've read and been following the stupidity of some peoples comments on here. For instance early archery I leave camp an hour before light and stay out all day and usually get back about hour to hour and a half after light is my camp abandoned? To some of you it is. I have my travel trailer setup and I'm gonna spike camp it for a couple days are one of you so called jack wagons gonna tow my truck trailer and quad out to the road and put ur camp in? Come on people if someone's camp is there leave it alone. Who's to judge one persons camp? We've all been thru seasons where all one could afford was a tarp a goodwill tent and a plastic bucket for a chair so why the hell should that guys camp be moved for yours. Maybe he went for ice or home for a shower or maybe had to have a buddy drop him off and will be back in a few days with the truck so he has no ride. LEAVE STUFF ALONE FIND A NEW SPOT!:yeah:
Listen the way I look at it unless you have a badge , hands off.
I set up camp and have left to run home to pick up a grandson, or attend a obligation . And come right back.Tough if someone doesn't like it.
I come back and you have moved my camp someone will loose their hunt because I will see to it you do not enjoy the camp I had first.
I have had folks beat me to a spot lots of time. I just adapt.
Guys who say they will move camps are just looking to be jack wagons.
Get over yourself geeeez.
The issue is with the dummy camps, not a full blown everyone knows you're there setup. Why is this hard to comprehend? :dunno:
Why is there any difference? If you drag your trailer over the weekend before, set it up and leave: or a dummy tent & Chair. No difference I can see. Either way you are reserving your spot for opening weekend.
ET
Post by: Goldy79 on August 13, 2014, 09:47:20 AM
With thousands of acres to camp in why do folks fall in love with one spot? Go exploring and find a new one.
Post by: et1702 on August 13, 2014, 09:49:44 AM
However, I strongly disagree with those of you that think its OK to move someone elses property, even if it is obviously a dummy camp. Report it. If NFS employee comes to investigate, provides notice and then removes it, feel free to move right in.
ET
Post by: bhawley76 on August 13, 2014, 09:55:15 AM
Post by: h20hunter on August 13, 2014, 09:59:06 AM
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on August 13, 2014, 09:59:34 AM
Post by: Bean Counter on August 13, 2014, 10:12:44 AM
I guess its to tuff to go get another spot. right wrong or indifferent removing or vandalizing something that is not yours just don't make any sense to me, I don't care what the law says :dunno:
It belongs to no one if it is legally abandoned property.
Post by: kentrek on August 13, 2014, 10:20:49 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on August 13, 2014, 10:22:29 AM
I guess its to tuff to go get another spot. right wrong or indifferent removing or vandalizing something that is not yours just don't make any sense to me, I don't care what the law says :dunno:
It belongs to no one if it is legally abandoned property.
True, but I would rather be out in the woods with people who set up their camp last weekend, instead of getting there after work Friday evening , setting up camp, and maybe getting some sleep the night before opener.
Post by: baker5150 on August 13, 2014, 10:33:56 AM
So how does one know if someone is there or not? I've read and been following the stupidity of some peoples comments on here. For instance early archery I leave camp an hour before light and stay out all day and usually get back about hour to hour and a half after light is my camp abandoned? To some of you it is. I have my travel trailer setup and I'm gonna spike camp it for a couple days are one of you so called jack wagons gonna tow my truck trailer and quad out to the road and put ur camp in? Come on people if someone's camp is there leave it alone. Who's to judge one persons camp? We've all been thru seasons where all one could afford was a tarp a goodwill tent and a plastic bucket for a chair so why the hell should that guys camp be moved for yours. Maybe he went for ice or home for a shower or maybe had to have a buddy drop him off and will be back in a few days with the truck so he has no ride. LEAVE STUFF ALONE FIND A NEW SPOT!:yeah:
Listen the way I look at it unless you have a badge , hands off.
I set up camp and have left to run home to pick up a grandson, or attend a obligation . And come right back.Tough if someone doesn't like it.
I come back and you have moved my camp someone will loose their hunt because I will see to it you do not enjoy the camp I had first.
I have had folks beat me to a spot lots of time. I just adapt.
Guys who say they will move camps are just looking to be jack wagons.
Get over yourself geeeez.
The issue is with the dummy camps, not a full blown everyone knows you're there setup. Why is this hard to comprehend? :dunno:
Why is there any difference? If you drag your trailer over the weekend before, set it up and leave: or a dummy tent & Chair. No difference I can see. Either way you are reserving your spot for opening weekend.
ET
I don't think your getting it.
There is a BIG difference between someone setting up a dummy camp (only there to reserve the spot), and someone with a full blown camp set up and are not there because they are out hunting, or spiked out for a day or two, and fully intend to continue to camp there
Post by: baker5150 on August 13, 2014, 10:38:47 AM
Here is the kicker....I haven't been able to find, nor has anyone else that I know of, what the rules actually are for "reservation" holding or placing your camp then leaving it unattended for x amount of time. Basically....I agree with the "no reservation" policy. If you get there you should be actively using the spot.
So, setting our own opinions in the matter aside,
if there is no rule against it, does that make it legal?
Isn't that how the game regs are set up?
Post by: Bean Counter on August 13, 2014, 10:45:15 AM
We've already covered this. If you come up a week before opener and set up a camp and then go home, it is an illegal setup and in some states is considered abandoned property. If you set up a campsite and are using it on a daily basis then it is legally used. This is what the law says and I don't understand why this is so difficult....
Post by: h20hunter on August 13, 2014, 10:46:38 AM
I would have to say yes. Since so far there is nothing in writing about the duration of being occupied. I suppose that since the only rule that is clear is the 15 day time limit. That means that pretty much everyone that wants to reserve their spot needs to get there as early as they can 14 days ahead of time and get set up. Then, on the 15th and final day you show up, remove your temporary camp holding tent and chair and set up the real deal.
That being said.....if/when I show up to set up and there is clearly and old tent and chair set up for the pupose of reserving...I'll be setting it aside and gettting set up.
Post by: MADMAX on August 13, 2014, 10:54:41 AM
:stirthepot:
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 13, 2014, 10:59:18 AM
I'm glad I started reading this thread because I would not want to lose my gear I spent quite a bit of money on.
Probably should consider not abandoning property in the NF if you are worried about it.
ET had it right:
Exactly my POINT. No reservations! No difference.
However, I strongly disagree with those of you that think its OK to move someone elses property, even if it is obviously a dummy camp. Report it. If NFS employee comes to investigate, provides notice and then removes it, feel free to move right in.
ET
Baker,
So, setting our own opinions in the matter aside,
if there is no rule against it, does that make it legal?
Isn't that how the game regs are set up?
See my post above about prohibitions on abandoning property in the NF, camping, which requires occupancy, and although not explicitly stated in the CFRs for dispersed camping, there can be prohibitions on use/occupancy in the NF by local order, that don't appear in the CFRs.
So, aside from whether there is an actual 24 hour rule for dispersed camping in a particular NF, it can boil down to a question of simple etiquette that states don't be a jackwagon and reserve a spot in the NF for an inordinate amount of time before you plan to actually use/occupy the space. The other side is don't disrespect people's property, even if it is an obvious dummy camp. Report it to NF personnel and have them follow proper procedures for removing abandoned property.
Post by: turkeyfeather on August 13, 2014, 10:59:51 AM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 13, 2014, 11:01:21 AM
This topic sort of came up at my 9 yr olds hunters end class last night. They were teaching the kids about good sportsmanship. One of they things they pointed out is that sometimes people will post public land to try and keep some people away from it and that is very unsportsmanlike. So I asked them about this very topic and it was agreed on by all the instructor s that it is no different than posting public land. Very poor example to set for the next generation.
Good point, but some people don't care as long as they get theirs.
Post by: turkeyfeather on August 13, 2014, 11:05:02 AM
Exactly, and that is why we as hunters are under constant attack by anti's.This topic sort of came up at my 9 yr olds hunters end class last night. They were teaching the kids about good sportsmanship. One of they things they pointed out is that sometimes people will post public land to try and keep some people away from it and that is very unsportsmanlike. So I asked them about this very topic and it was agreed on by all the instructor s that it is no different than posting public land. Very poor example to set for the next generation.
Good point, but some people don't care as long as they get theirs.
Post by: baker5150 on August 13, 2014, 11:18:43 AM
:beatdeadhorse:
We've already covered this. If you come up a week before opener and set up a camp and then go home, it is an illegal setup and in some states is considered abandoned property. If you set up a campsite and are using it on a daily basis then it is legally used. This is what the law says and I don't understand why this is so difficult....
The only law quoted is for designated campgrounds, so where are you seeing this law for Dispersed Camping?
Post by: northcoast on August 13, 2014, 11:24:32 AM
baker....
I would have to say yes. Since so far there is nothing in writing about the duration of being occupied. I suppose that since the only rule that is clear is the 15 day time limit. That means that pretty much everyone that wants to reserve their spot needs to get there as early as they can 14 days ahead of time and get set up. Then, on the 15th and final day you show up, remove your temporary camp holding tent and chair and set up the real deal.
That being said.....if/when I show up to set up and there is clearly and old tent and chair set up for the pupose of reserving...I'll be setting it aside and gettting set up.
From the special rules section of the CFR..
Camping for a total period of more than 14 nights during any 28-night
period. The 28-night period will begin the first night the site is occupied.
The 14-night limit may be reached either through a number of
separate visits or through a period of continuous occupation. Once the
14-night limit is reached in any camping area, the person(s) must
move a distance of not less than 50 linear miles to continue camping
on public lands
and...
Leaving personal property, including vehicles, unattended longer than 24 hours in day use areas, or 72 hours in other areas.
saving the most important for last...
Defacing, disturbing, destroying or removing personal property, structures, livestock, archaeological resources, mineral resources or any natural resources.
Legal definitions from the CFRs to help understand what personal property is...
Camping means the temporary use of National Forest System lands for
the purpose of overnight occupancy without a permanently-fixed
structure.
Camping equipment means the personal property used in or suitable
for camping, and includes any vehicle used for transportation and all
equipment in possession of a person camping. Food and beverage are not
considered camping equipment.
Post by: baker5150 on August 13, 2014, 11:30:24 AM
This topic sort of came up at my 9 yr olds hunters ed class last night. They were teaching the kids about good sportsmanship. One of they things they pointed out is that sometimes people will post public land to try and keep some people away from it and that is very unsportsmanlike. So I asked them about this very topic and it was agreed on by all the instructor s that it is no different than posting public land. Very poor example to set for the next generation.
I think that's the point most here are trying to make. Even if it is legal to reserve a spot, in my opinion it's ethically wrong. And I hope others agree.
I believe some of us see things we think are wrong, and hope there is a law against it. Maybe even manipulate a law to cover what we disagree with.
Then there are those that see a loop hole in the law, and want to either take advantage of it, or use it as a way to get ahead.
Post by: baker5150 on August 13, 2014, 11:32:40 AM
baker....
I would have to say yes. Since so far there is nothing in writing about the duration of being occupied. I suppose that since the only rule that is clear is the 15 day time limit. That means that pretty much everyone that wants to reserve their spot needs to get there as early as they can 14 days ahead of time and get set up. Then, on the 15th and final day you show up, remove your temporary camp holding tent and chair and set up the real deal.
That being said.....if/when I show up to set up and there is clearly and old tent and chair set up for the pupose of reserving...I'll be setting it aside and gettting set up.
From the special rules section of the CFR..
Camping for a total period of more than 14 nights during any 28-night
period. The 28-night period will begin the first night the site is occupied.
The 14-night limit may be reached either through a number of
separate visits or through a period of continuous occupation. Once the
14-night limit is reached in any camping area, the person(s) must
move a distance of not less than 50 linear miles to continue camping
on public lands
and...
Leaving personal property, including vehicles, unattended longer than 24 hours in day use areas, or 72 hours in other areas.
saving the most important for last...
Defacing, disturbing, destroying or removing personal property, structures, livestock, archaeological resources, mineral resources or any natural resources.
Legal definitions from the CFRs to help understand what personal property is...
Camping means the temporary use of National Forest System lands for
the purpose of overnight occupancy without a permanently-fixed
structure.
Camping equipment means the personal property used in or suitable
for camping, and includes any vehicle used for transportation and all
equipment in possession of a person camping. Food and beverage are not
considered camping equipment.
So its perfectly legal to reserve a spot no more than 72 hours in advance.
Post by: h20hunter on August 13, 2014, 11:33:32 AM
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detailfull/fishlake/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5121987&width=full (http://www.fs.usda.gov/detailfull/fishlake/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5121987&width=full)
It appears to apply both the general use campsites as well as dispersed. Not sure why Fishlake keeps coming up but that is all I can find online.
Post by: ghosthunter on August 13, 2014, 11:36:59 AM
Exactly my POINT. No reservations! No difference.
However, I strongly disagree with those of you that think its OK to move someone elses property, even if it is obviously a dummy camp. Report it. If NFS employee comes to investigate, provides notice and then removes it, feel free to move right in.
ET
:yeah:
Post by: ghosthunter on August 13, 2014, 11:47:57 AM
:beatdeadhorse:
We've already covered this. If you come up a week before opener and set up a camp and then go home, it is an illegal setup and in some states is considered abandoned property. If you set up a campsite and are using it on a daily basis then it is legally used. This is what the law says and I don't understand why this is so difficult....
The part that is difficult for me on this whole issue is someone besides a LE is making the determination that my camp standards or anyone else's, doesn't meet their standards of a active camp.
In a nutshell it maybe against the law but if you are not a LE you do not have any authority to enforce the law.
And what happens is somebody reads this thread and thinks they are going to move the next in "their opinion abandoned camp." And somebody get s hurt?
Not yours, leave it alone. :twocents:
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 13, 2014, 12:04:50 PM
:beatdeadhorse:
We've already covered this. If you come up a week before opener and set up a camp and then go home, it is an illegal setup and in some states is considered abandoned property. If you set up a campsite and are using it on a daily basis then it is legally used. This is what the law says and I don't understand why this is so difficult....
The part that is difficult for me on this whole issue is someone besides a LE is making the determination that my camp standards or anyone else's, doesn't meet their standards of a active camp.
In a nutshell it maybe against the law but if you are not a LE you do not have any authority to enforce the law.
And what happens is somebody reads this thread and thinks they are going to move the next in "their opinion abandoned camp." And somebody get s hurt.
Not yours, leave it alone. :twocents:
Yay, we finally get to physical violence. I wondered how long it would take - longer than I expected! :tup: Carry on.
Post by: turkeyfeather on August 13, 2014, 12:23:14 PM
Post by: Goldy79 on August 13, 2014, 12:24:15 PM
If I leave my camp that's low for a few days to join friends up high does that mean I abandoned my camp? I don't think it does.
Probably should consider not abandoning property in the NF if you are worried about it.
ET had it right:
Exactly my POINT. No reservations! No difference.
However, I strongly disagree with those of you that think its OK to move someone elses property, even if it is obviously a dummy camp. Report it. If NFS employee comes to investigate, provides notice and then removes it, feel free to move right in.
ET
Baker,
So, setting our own opinions in the matter aside,
if there is no rule against it, does that make it legal?
Isn't that how the game regs are set up?
See my post above about prohibitions on abandoning property in the NF, camping, which requires occupancy, and although not explicitly stated in the CFRs for dispersed camping, there can be prohibitions on use/occupancy in the NF by local order, that don't appear in the CFRs.
So, aside from whether there is an actual 24 hour rule for dispersed camping in a particular NF, it can boil down to a question of simple etiquette that states don't be a jackwagon and reserve a spot in the NF for an inordinate amount of time before you plan to actually use/occupy the space. The other side is don't disrespect people's property, even if it is an obvious dummy camp. Report it to NF personnel and have them follow proper procedures for removing abandoned property.
[/quote]
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 13, 2014, 12:25:06 PM
Food and beverage are not considered camping equipment.
It's good to know that I can continue my cooler raids in the Little Naches legally.
Thanks!
From the special rules section of the CFR..
Leaving personal property, including vehicles, unattended longer than 24 hours in day use areas, or 72 hours in other areas.
saving the most important for last...
Defacing, disturbing, destroying or removing personal property, structures, livestock, archaeological resources, mineral resources or any natural resources.
You should cite sources for these, as I suspect these apply to land under the jurisdiction of BLM and not the NFS.
Having not found any equivalent 72 hours in other areas for the NFS CFRs (dispersed or otherwise) I suspect that not to be the case, except by special order of local NFS authority.
Baker...I think you got to it first. Here is what I'm looking at:
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detailfull/fishlake/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5121987&width=full (http://www.fs.usda.gov/detailfull/fishlake/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5121987&width=full)
It appears to apply both the general use campsites as well as dispersed. Not sure why Fishlake keeps coming up but that is all I can find online.
The reason why these particular jurisdictions only come up for these rules is that 1) that is the way you crafted the search (24 hour, 72 hour, etc.), 2) these websites are synopses of the CFRs, and 3) they ofter combine dispersed and developed sites without noting there is a distinction for the particular rules.
That is why I cited the actual CFR for NFS. That and a call to the jurisdiction for which you intend to reserve a spot, camp, and/or destroy peoples dummy camp spots would give you the most correct answer for your respective moral position.
I probably wouldn't worry but some folks felt they have the right to enforce some sort of law that doesn't seem to exist. I thought leaving a tent out with some chairs for a few days to claim a spot was no big deal...
If I leave my camp that's low for a few days to join friends up high does that mean I abandoned my camp? I don't think it does.
I wouldn't say the rule doesn't seem to exist, rather it exists in that camping requires occupancy and not abandoning your property, but without a clear 24 hour rule.
Two days away from an established camp is not what the thread is about; dummy camps are. See images up thread for examples of the two, if you have never actually seen one. In certain parts there are more dummies than real ones. It gets pretty ridiculous.
Post by: h20hunter on August 13, 2014, 12:28:17 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on August 13, 2014, 01:24:32 PM
Defintions of a Dummy Camp.
1. The first thought that goes thru your brain when seeing the DC is that, there is probably a dead body inside that tent.
2. Being a concerned, cautious citizen you stop to investigate and notice the tracks leading to the DC are undisturbed and covered in several days of duff and perhaps washed out by some rain.
3. Other than a chair or two there is nothing else indicating occupation, i.e. no cooking area, coolers, lanterns, chopped and stacked wood etc. These things are valuable right?
4. Upon unzipping the door of the tent you find it completely empty and thankfully no corpse inside.
I think thats a good start for defintions of the DC? Please feel free to add your own.
Now, this DC is smack dab in the middle of the place I want to camp. POOF! It mysteriously disappears, well look at that, better get the rake out and start smoothing out the tent site. :tup:
Happy camping and good luck! :cmp1:
Post by: northcoast on August 13, 2014, 01:29:35 PM
Two days away from an established camp is not what the thread is about; dummy camps are. See images up thread for examples of the two, if you have never actually seen one. In certain parts there are more dummies than real ones. It gets pretty ridiculous.
The pic you were referring to is of a kids tent in someone's back yard. If you are talking about a set up like this..
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsytype.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F09%2FTent-in-the-woods-300x225.jpg&hash=ef08347609f2aa9e7165467fb6ae47939f7c178c) or this (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2ZX_FX2TlTIOXqsSuBIreNZx4y2kGPqnqVTI7qeeebY=w254-h207-p-no)
that is exactly what my camp looks like if I'm by myself or have only one of the kids with me.
That's why I get irritated when guys with their fancy wall tents and trailers think they can move my stuff just because they think it's a dummy camp.
If you think it's a dummy camp report it to the FSO. If it doesn't belong to you don't touch it.
Maybe if I get a tent like this one you'll leave it alone.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.firebox.com%2Fpic%2Fp3644_column_grid_12.jpg&hash=d94a956890152104132b082696b4307d18edf3a0)
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 13, 2014, 01:38:29 PM
The pic you were referring to is of a kids tent in someone's back yard. If you are talking about a set up like this..
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsytype.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F09%2FTent-in-the-woods-300x225.jpg&hash=ef08347609f2aa9e7165467fb6ae47939f7c178c)
^Developed site, 24 hour rule typically applies.
or this (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2ZX_FX2TlTIOXqsSuBIreNZx4y2kGPqnqVTI7qeeebY=w254-h207-p-no)
that is exactly what my camp looks like if I'm by myself or have only one of the kids with me.
I don't think you have anything to worry about. Looks in use to me. But it also appears to be a Developed Site.
That's why I get irritated when guys with their fancy wall tents and trailers think they can move my stuff just because they think it's a dummy camp.
If you think it's a dummy camp report it to the FSO. If it doesn't belong to you don't touch it.
Maybe if I get a tent like this one you'll leave it alone.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.firebox.com%2Fpic%2Fp3644_column_grid_12.jpg&hash=d94a956890152104132b082696b4307d18edf3a0)
Hold the phone! That's a hippie camp! That's where you get your weed and acid before going out on a high hunt.
Post by: turkeyfeather on August 13, 2014, 01:46:34 PM
Post by: northcoast on August 13, 2014, 03:06:12 PM
If my stuff gets moved just so they can set up there camp... :bdid:.
Post by: bowhuntersd on August 13, 2014, 03:31:37 PM
North coast, either of those two pics might make me take a closer look and see if they are being used. If not then I may set my camp up there with yours and whether or not we teach our kids a lesson about good people or jackwagons is solely up to you.
Pot :stirthepot: SHMUCK!
Post by: hornhunter1987 on August 13, 2014, 04:18:18 PM
Post by: turkeyfeather on August 13, 2014, 05:15:43 PM
I am trying to decide if your being sarcastic or a jerk. :dunno: Oh and you spelled schmuck wrong. :chuckle:North coast, either of those two pics might make me take a closer look and see if they are being used. If not then I may set my camp up there with yours and whether or not we teach our kids a lesson about good people or jackwagons is solely up to you.
Pot :stirthepot: SHMUCK!
Post by: pd on August 13, 2014, 08:15:36 PM
http://thenationalforests.com/the-national-forests/national-forest-camping-rules.html (http://thenationalforests.com/the-national-forests/national-forest-camping-rules.html)
•At least one person must occupy a camping area during the first night after camping equipment has been set up. Camping equipment cannot be left unattended for more than 24 hours.
:dunno:
That is only for developed recreation areas (i.e. pay campgrounds). Not sure why the "anti dummy camp" guys keep trying to twist things so they don't look like jackholes for messing with people's stuff.
If you take my stuff and set up your own camp, that's theft.
If you like the spot and think it's "abandoned" then report it but know this...the FSO can't remove my stuff until 5 days after a written notice if he knows my name and address. If he doesn't know who's stuff it is then he/she has to wait 3 days after public notice.
Code of Federal Regulation Title 36 Part 262.12 (Current as of 7/31/2014)
(a) Automobiles or other vehicles, trailers, boats, and camping equipment and other inanimate personal property on National Forest System lands without the authorization of a Forest officer which are not removed therefrom within the prescribed period after a warning notice as provided in this regulation may be impounded by a Forest officer. Whenever such Forest officer knows the name and address of the owner, such impoundment may be effected at any time five days after the date that written notice of the trespass is mailed by registered mail or delivered to such owner.
(b) If the local Forest Officer does not know the name and address of the owner of property in trespass, impoundment may be effected at any time 72 hours after a notice of intention to impound the property in trespass is posted in at least one place in the vicinity of the property.
If someone get's there before me and takes the spot I was planning on camping at, oh well, that's their right. Bottom line is 14 days is the limit and then you need to move 5 miles. That's it.
No dog in this fight, but good on you for the CFR reference. Local USFS administrators sometime forget they are not Lords of our manors.
Post by: TheHunt on August 13, 2014, 09:32:47 PM