Early camp set up

[Fl0und3rz]

I'm glad I started reading this thread because I would not want to lose my gear I spent quite a bit of money on.

Probably should consider not abandoning property in the NF if you are worried about it.

ET had it right:

Exactly my POINT.  No reservations!  No difference.

However, I strongly disagree with those of you that think its OK to move someone elses property, even if it is obviously a dummy camp.  Report it.  If NFS employee comes to investigate, provides notice and then removes it, feel free to move right in.

ET

Baker,

So, setting our own opinions in the matter aside,
if there is no rule against it, does that make it legal? 
Isn't that how the game regs are set up?

See my post above about prohibitions on abandoning property in the NF, camping, which requires occupancy, and although not explicitly stated in the CFRs for dispersed camping, there can be prohibitions on use/occupancy in the NF by local order, that don't appear in the CFRs.


So, aside from whether there is an actual 24 hour rule for dispersed camping in a particular NF, it can boil down to a question of simple etiquette that states don't be a jackwagon and reserve a spot in the NF for an inordinate amount of time before you plan to actually use/occupy the space.  The other side is don't disrespect people's property, even if it is an obvious dummy camp.  Report it to NF personnel and have them follow proper procedures for removing abandoned property.

[turkeyfeather]

This topic sort of came up at my 9 yr olds hunters ed class last night. They were teaching the kids about good sportsmanship. One of they things they pointed out is that sometimes people will post public land to try and keep some people away from it and that is very unsportsmanlike. So I asked them about this very topic and it was agreed on by all the instructor s that it is no different than posting public land. Very poor example to set for the next generation.

[Fl0und3rz]

This topic sort of came up at my 9 yr olds hunters end class last night. They were teaching the kids about good sportsmanship. One of they things they pointed out is that sometimes people will post public land to try and keep some people away from it and that is very unsportsmanlike. So I asked them about this very topic and it was agreed on by all the instructor s that it is no different than posting public land. Very poor example to set for the next generation.

Good point, but some people don't care as long as they get theirs.

[turkeyfeather]

This topic sort of came up at my 9 yr olds hunters end class last night. They were teaching the kids about good sportsmanship. One of they things they pointed out is that sometimes people will post public land to try and keep some people away from it and that is very unsportsmanlike. So I asked them about this very topic and it was agreed on by all the instructor s that it is no different than posting public land. Very poor example to set for the next generation.

Good point, but some people don't care as long as they get theirs.

Exactly, and that is why we as hunters are under constant attack by anti's.

[baker5150]

We've already covered this. If you come up a week before opener and set up a camp and then go home, it is an illegal setup and in some states is considered abandoned property. If you set up a campsite and are using it on a daily basis then it is legally used. This is what the law says and I don't understand why this is so difficult....

The only law quoted is for designated campgrounds, so where are you seeing this law for Dispersed Camping?

[northcoast]

baker....

I would have to say yes. Since so far there is nothing in writing about the duration of being occupied. I suppose that since the only rule that is clear is the 15 day time limit. That means that pretty much everyone that wants to reserve their spot needs to get there as early as they can 14 days ahead of time and get set up. Then, on the 15th and final day you show up, remove your temporary camp holding tent and chair and set up the real deal.


That being said.....if/when I show up to set up and there is clearly and old tent and chair set up for the pupose of reserving...I'll be setting it aside and gettting set up.

From the special rules section of the CFR..

Camping for a total period of more than 14 nights during any 28-night
period. The 28-night period will begin the first night the site is occupied.
The 14-night limit may be reached either through a number of
separate visits or through a period of continuous occupation. Once the
14-night limit is reached in any camping area, the person(s) must
move a distance of not less than 50 linear miles to continue camping
on public lands


and...

Leaving personal property, including vehicles, unattended longer than 24 hours in day use areas, or 72 hours in other areas.

saving the most important for last...

Defacing, disturbing, destroying or removing personal property, structures, livestock, archaeological resources, mineral resources or any natural resources.

Legal definitions from the CFRs to help understand what personal property is...

Camping means the temporary use of National Forest System lands for
the purpose of overnight occupancy without a permanently-fixed
structure.

Camping equipment means the personal property used in or suitable
for camping, and includes any vehicle used for transportation and all
equipment in possession of a person camping. Food and beverage are not
considered camping equipment.

[baker5150]

This topic sort of came up at my 9 yr olds hunters ed class last night. They were teaching the kids about good sportsmanship. One of they things they pointed out is that sometimes people will post public land to try and keep some people away from it and that is very unsportsmanlike. So I asked them about this very topic and it was agreed on by all the instructor s that it is no different than posting public land. Very poor example to set for the next generation.

I think that's the point most here are trying to make.  Even if it is legal to reserve a spot, in my opinion it's ethically wrong. And I hope others agree.

I believe some of us see things we think are wrong, and hope there is a law against it. Maybe even manipulate a law to cover what we disagree with.
Then there are those that see a loop hole in the law, and want to either take advantage of it, or use it as a way to get ahead.

[baker5150]

baker....

I would have to say yes. Since so far there is nothing in writing about the duration of being occupied. I suppose that since the only rule that is clear is the 15 day time limit. That means that pretty much everyone that wants to reserve their spot needs to get there as early as they can 14 days ahead of time and get set up. Then, on the 15th and final day you show up, remove your temporary camp holding tent and chair and set up the real deal.


That being said.....if/when I show up to set up and there is clearly and old tent and chair set up for the pupose of reserving...I'll be setting it aside and gettting set up.

From the special rules section of the CFR..

Camping for a total period of more than 14 nights during any 28-night
period. The 28-night period will begin the first night the site is occupied.
The 14-night limit may be reached either through a number of
separate visits or through a period of continuous occupation. Once the
14-night limit is reached in any camping area, the person(s) must
move a distance of not less than 50 linear miles to continue camping
on public lands


and...

Leaving personal property, including vehicles, unattended longer than 24 hours in day use areas, or 72 hours in other areas.

saving the most important for last...

Defacing, disturbing, destroying or removing personal property, structures, livestock, archaeological resources, mineral resources or any natural resources.

Legal definitions from the CFRs to help understand what personal property is...

Camping means the temporary use of National Forest System lands for
the purpose of overnight occupancy without a permanently-fixed
structure.

Camping equipment means the personal property used in or suitable
for camping, and includes any vehicle used for transportation and all
equipment in possession of a person camping. Food and beverage are not
considered camping equipment.

So its perfectly legal to reserve a spot no more than 72 hours in advance. 

[h20hunter]

Baker...I think you got to it first. Here is what I'm looking at:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/detailfull/fishlake/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5121987&width=full

It appears to apply both the general use campsites as well as dispersed. Not sure why Fishlake keeps coming up but that is all I can find online.

[ghosthunter]

Exactly my POINT.  No reservations!  No difference.

However, I strongly disagree with those of you that think its OK to move someone elses property, even if it is obviously a dummy camp.  Report it.  If NFS employee comes to investigate, provides notice and then removes it, feel free to move right in.

ET

 

[ghosthunter]

We've already covered this. If you come up a week before opener and set up a camp and then go home, it is an illegal setup and in some states is considered abandoned property. If you set up a campsite and are using it on a daily basis then it is legally used. This is what the law says and I don't understand why this is so difficult....

The part that is difficult for me on this whole issue is someone besides a LE is making the determination that my camp standards or anyone else's, doesn't meet their standards of a  active camp.
In a nutshell it maybe against the law but if you are not a LE you do not have any authority to enforce the law.

And what happens is somebody reads this thread and thinks they are going to move the next in "their opinion abandoned camp." And somebody get s hurt?

Not yours, leave it alone.

[pianoman9701]

We've already covered this. If you come up a week before opener and set up a camp and then go home, it is an illegal setup and in some states is considered abandoned property. If you set up a campsite and are using it on a daily basis then it is legally used. This is what the law says and I don't understand why this is so difficult....

The part that is difficult for me on this whole issue is someone besides a LE is making the determination that my camp standards or anyone else's, doesn't meet their standards of a  active camp.
In a nutshell it maybe against the law but if you are not a LE you do not have any authority to enforce the law.

And what happens is somebody reads this thread and thinks they are going to move the next in "their opinion abandoned camp." And somebody get s hurt.

Not yours, leave it alone.

Yay, we finally get to physical violence. I wondered how long it would take - longer than I expected!  Carry on.

[turkeyfeather]

The hilarious irony of this whole thread is that those that are crying it's unethical and wrong to set up next to or remove a dummy camp are themselves doing something that is unethical and wrong. There actions are solely responsible for the outcome and reaction. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. 

[Goldy79]

I probably wouldn't worry but some folks felt they have the right to enforce some sort of law that doesn't seem to exist.  I thought leaving a tent out with some chairs for a few days to claim a spot was no big deal...

If I leave my camp that's low for a few days to join friends up high does that mean I abandoned my camp? I don't think it does.

Probably should consider not abandoning property in the NF if you are worried about it.

ET had it right:

Exactly my POINT.  No reservations!  No difference.

However, I strongly disagree with those of you that think its OK to move someone elses property, even if it is obviously a dummy camp.  Report it.  If NFS employee comes to investigate, provides notice and then removes it, feel free to move right in.

ET

Baker,

So, setting our own opinions in the matter aside,
if there is no rule against it, does that make it legal? 
Isn't that how the game regs are set up?

See my post above about prohibitions on abandoning property in the NF, camping, which requires occupancy, and although not explicitly stated in the CFRs for dispersed camping, there can be prohibitions on use/occupancy in the NF by local order, that don't appear in the CFRs.


So, aside from whether there is an actual 24 hour rule for dispersed camping in a particular NF, it can boil down to a question of simple etiquette that states don't be a jackwagon and reserve a spot in the NF for an inordinate amount of time before you plan to actually use/occupy the space.  The other side is don't disrespect people's property, even if it is an obvious dummy camp.  Report it to NF personnel and have them follow proper procedures for removing abandoned property.
[/quote]

[Fl0und3rz]

Food and beverage are not considered camping equipment.

It's good to know that I can continue my cooler raids in the Little Naches legally.

Thanks!

From the special rules section of the CFR..

Leaving personal property, including vehicles, unattended longer than 24 hours in day use areas, or 72 hours in other areas.

saving the most important for last...

Defacing, disturbing, destroying or removing personal property, structures, livestock, archaeological resources, mineral resources or any natural resources.

You should cite sources for these, as I suspect these apply to land under the jurisdiction of BLM and not the NFS.

Having not found any equivalent 72 hours in other areas for the NFS CFRs (dispersed or otherwise) I suspect that not to be the case, except by special order of local NFS authority.

Baker...I think you got to it first. Here is what I'm looking at:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/detailfull/fishlake/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5121987&width=full

It appears to apply both the general use campsites as well as dispersed. Not sure why Fishlake keeps coming up but that is all I can find online.

The reason why these particular jurisdictions only come up for these rules is that 1) that is the way you crafted the search (24 hour, 72 hour, etc.), 2) these websites are synopses of the CFRs, and 3) they ofter combine dispersed and developed sites without noting there is a distinction for the particular rules. 

That is why I cited the actual CFR for NFS.  That and a call to the jurisdiction for which you intend to reserve a spot, camp, and/or destroy peoples dummy camp spots would give you the most correct answer for your respective moral position.

I probably wouldn't worry but some folks felt they have the right to enforce some sort of law that doesn't seem to exist.  I thought leaving a tent out with some chairs for a few days to claim a spot was no big deal...

If I leave my camp that's low for a few days to join friends up high does that mean I abandoned my camp? I don't think it does.

I wouldn't say the rule doesn't seem to exist, rather it exists in that camping requires occupancy and not abandoning your property, but without a clear 24 hour rule. 

Two days away from an established camp is not what the thread is about; dummy camps are.  See images up thread for examples of the two, if you have never actually seen one.  In certain parts there are more dummies than real ones. It gets pretty ridiculous.