Post by: pianoman9701 on November 14, 2014, 12:51:12 PM
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten/ (http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten/)
"Roundup significantly disrupts the functioning of beneficial bacteria in the gut and contributes to permeability of the intestinal wall and consequent expression of autoimmune disease symptoms."
Stop eating wheat products and stop ignoring the use of glyphosate on our forests. It's bad for us and it's bad for the elk.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on November 14, 2014, 01:04:25 PM
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/malagen.html (http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/malagen.html)
Post by: DRobnsn on November 14, 2014, 01:13:57 PM
:puke: :puke:
Post by: idahohuntr on November 14, 2014, 01:22:49 PM
Farmers routinely use Round-up just days before wheat harvest to kill the wheat stalks and make them easier to harvest, thus exposing us to glyphosate (the active ingredient in Round-Up) in our wheat. Isn't that special? In addition, this article suggests that there's no such thing as a gluten allergy, but that the problems people are having with wheat are actually a response to ingesting the glyphosate. The reaction that humans have to glyphosate could explain a correlation between it's use on clear cuts and the breakdown of the immune system in elk.Really? :chuckle: So how does that statement fit with observations of hoof disease in SE Wa where elk, round-up use, and wheat production are off the charts?
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten/ (http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten/)
"Roundup significantly disrupts the functioning of beneficial bacteria in the gut and contributes to permeability of the intestinal wall and consequent expression of autoimmune disease symptoms."
Stop eating wheat products and stop ignoring the use of glyphosate on our forests. It's bad for us and it's bad for the elk.
Post by: T Pearce on November 14, 2014, 01:32:39 PM
Farmers routinely use Round-up just days before wheat harvest to kill the wheat stalks and make them easier to harvest, thus exposing us to glyphosate (the active ingredient in Round-Up) in our wheat. Isn't that special? In addition, this article suggests that there's no such thing as a gluten allergy, but that the problems people are having with wheat are actually a response to ingesting the glyphosate. The reaction that humans have to glyphosate could explain a correlation between it's use on clear cuts and the breakdown of the immune system in elk.That is not how round up is used.
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten/ (http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten/)
"Roundup significantly disrupts the functioning of beneficial bacteria in the gut and contributes to permeability of the intestinal wall and consequent expression of autoimmune disease symptoms."
Stop eating wheat products and stop ignoring the use of glyphosate on our forests. It's bad for us and it's bad for the elk.
Decided not to post what im really thinking here....
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 14, 2014, 01:46:07 PM
Farmers routinely use Round-up just days before wheat harvest to kill the wheat stalks and make them easier to harvest, thus exposing us to glyphosate (the active ingredient in Round-Up) in our wheat. Isn't that special? In addition, this article suggests that there's no such thing as a gluten allergy, but that the problems people are having with wheat are actually a response to ingesting the glyphosate. The reaction that humans have to glyphosate could explain a correlation between it's use on clear cuts and the breakdown of the immune system in elk.That is not how round up is used.
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten/ (http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten/)
"Roundup significantly disrupts the functioning of beneficial bacteria in the gut and contributes to permeability of the intestinal wall and consequent expression of autoimmune disease symptoms."
Stop eating wheat products and stop ignoring the use of glyphosate on our forests. It's bad for us and it's bad for the elk.
Decided not to post what im really thinking here....
You should post what you're really thinking. If you have information that what was said in this article isn't true, I'd like to hear it instead of disseminating false information. But to just say "this is not how Round-up is used" and then say nothing to help us understand what you mean...doesn't give us anything to go on.
Post by: jackelope on November 14, 2014, 02:08:50 PM
Farmers routinely use Round-up just days before wheat harvest to kill the wheat stalks and make them easier to harvest, thus exposing us to glyphosate (the active ingredient in Round-Up) in our wheat. Isn't that special? In addition, this article suggests that there's no such thing as a gluten allergy, but that the problems people are having with wheat are actually a response to ingesting the glyphosate. The reaction that humans have to glyphosate could explain a correlation between it's use on clear cuts and the breakdown of the immune system in elk.That is not how round up is used.
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten/ (http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten/)
"Roundup significantly disrupts the functioning of beneficial bacteria in the gut and contributes to permeability of the intestinal wall and consequent expression of autoimmune disease symptoms."
Stop eating wheat products and stop ignoring the use of glyphosate on our forests. It's bad for us and it's bad for the elk.
Decided not to post what im really thinking here....
You should post what you're really thinking. If you have information that what was said in this article isn't true, I'd like to hear it instead of disseminating false information. But to just say "this is not how Round-up is used" and then say nothing to help us understand what you mean...doesn't give us anything to go on.
I think it's pretty close to how it's used.
I don't see how Roundup's application on wheat has any correlation to hoof rot in SW Washington.
:dunno:
Post by: T Pearce on November 14, 2014, 02:22:33 PM
Post by: T Pearce on November 14, 2014, 02:39:05 PM
Roundup is used primarily as a weeder. Wheat is cured naturally in the sun late June early July. We will spray roundup on a field to clear volunteer crops (wheat that was knocked down during harvest and has sprouted). Faster and more efficient to fly on after spring green up. Then plant whatever you wish, no residual. Mix Roundup with a broadleaf killer and Roundup will stick around keeping the driveway clear cause roundup is not selective in what it controls. Monsanto is the Champion in plant genetics. Raising more with less. There are roundup ready crops that serve us well too.
We raise plenty of elk right here around the place. Havent seen any limping but they keep their heads down til after the 15th.
Tom
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 14, 2014, 02:41:00 PM
Farmers routinely use Round-up just days before wheat harvest to kill the wheat stalks and make them easier to harvest, thus exposing us to glyphosate (the active ingredient in Round-Up) in our wheat. Isn't that special? In addition, this article suggests that there's no such thing as a gluten allergy, but that the problems people are having with wheat are actually a response to ingesting the glyphosate. The reaction that humans have to glyphosate could explain a correlation between it's use on clear cuts and the breakdown of the immune system in elk.That is not how round up is used.
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten/ (http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten/)
"Roundup significantly disrupts the functioning of beneficial bacteria in the gut and contributes to permeability of the intestinal wall and consequent expression of autoimmune disease symptoms."
Stop eating wheat products and stop ignoring the use of glyphosate on our forests. It's bad for us and it's bad for the elk.
Decided not to post what im really thinking here....
You should post what you're really thinking. If you have information that what was said in this article isn't true, I'd like to hear it instead of disseminating false information. But to just say "this is not how Round-up is used" and then say nothing to help us understand what you mean...doesn't give us anything to go on.
I think it's pretty close to how it's used.
I don't see how Roundup's application on wheat has any correlation to hoof rot in SW Washington.
:dunno:
Did you read the article, Jackelope? The timber companies use Round-up on the clearcuts. The article states that studies show that Round-up breaks down the immune system. Many people, Dr. Boone Mora among them, feel that the reason the elk are sick, whether from hoof disease or with deformed antler and bone growth, are because of a breakdown in their immune system. I was merely making a statement that if what the author says is true about Round-Up being sprayed on wheat a few days before harvest, we may be experiencing a similar breakdown of our immune systems by consuming it.
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 14, 2014, 02:44:28 PM
Thanks John,
Roundup is used primarily as a weeder. Wheat is cured naturally in the sun late June early July. We will spray roundup on a field to clear volunteer crops (wheat that was knocked down during harvest and has sprouted). Faster and more efficient to fly on after spring green up. Then plant whatever you wish, no residual. Mix Roundup with a broadleaf killer and Roundup will stick around keeping the driveway clear cause roundup is not selective in what it controls. Monsanto is the Champion in plant genetics. Raising more with less. There are roundup ready crops that serve us well too.
We raise plenty of elk right here around the place. Havent seen any limping but they keep their heads down til after the 15th.
Tom
Thanks Tom. So correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying farmers in WA don't use the practice outlined in the article - spraying the standing wheat to hasten ripening a few days before they want to harvest it to make it easier or faster to harvest. If that's what you're saying, then maybe the author is referring to the country's breadbasket east of the Rockies. I'd like to think we do it better in WA.
Post by: jackelope on November 14, 2014, 02:48:03 PM
Post by: jackelope on November 14, 2014, 02:49:36 PM
Thanks John,
Roundup is used primarily as a weeder. Wheat is cured naturally in the sun late June early July. We will spray roundup on a field to clear volunteer crops (wheat that was knocked down during harvest and has sprouted). Faster and more efficient to fly on after spring green up. Then plant whatever you wish, no residual. Mix Roundup with a broadleaf killer and Roundup will stick around keeping the driveway clear cause roundup is not selective in what it controls. Monsanto is the Champion in plant genetics. Raising more with less. There are roundup ready crops that serve us well too.
We raise plenty of elk right here around the place. Havent seen any limping but they keep their heads down til after the 15th.
Tom
Thanks Tom. So correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying farmers in WA don't use the practice outlined in the article - spraying the standing wheat to hasten ripening a few days before they want to harvest it to make it easier or faster to harvest. If that's what you're saying, then maybe the author is referring to the country's breadbasket east of the Rockies. I'd like to think we do it better in WA.
I think what he's saying is it's used for weed control. Not a couple days before harvest to make it easier to harvest.
http://roundup.ca/_uploads/documents/MON-Preharvest%20Staging%20Guide.pdf (http://roundup.ca/_uploads/documents/MON-Preharvest%20Staging%20Guide.pdf)
Check it out.
Preharvest is the best time for controlling Canada thistle, quackgrass,
perennial sowthistle, dandelion, toadflax, and milkweed.
A preharvest weed control application is an excellent management
strategy to not only control perennial weeds, but to facilitate
harvest management and get a head start on next year’s crop.
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 14, 2014, 02:55:27 PM
I guess I was trying to see the relationship...
My post is more about a causative relationship between the practice outlined in the article and some of the severe problems we have in the US with so-called gluten. I had a conversation with my brother last night regarding "poisonous wheat". He was talking about the very same concerns and has completely cut wheat out of his diet. He's noticed great positive changes in his health after having done so two years ago. This guy is 60 running triathlons and half Iron Man things. When i saw this on FB this morning, it was pretty interesting to see. The only thing this has to do with elk is the link of glyphosate as a common factor.
Post by: denali on November 14, 2014, 02:57:11 PM
I wont speak to other areas of the country but in the PNW irrigated and dryland, I don't think it is a widely used practice.
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 14, 2014, 03:02:29 PM
Thanks John,
Roundup is used primarily as a weeder. Wheat is cured naturally in the sun late June early July. We will spray roundup on a field to clear volunteer crops (wheat that was knocked down during harvest and has sprouted). Faster and more efficient to fly on after spring green up. Then plant whatever you wish, no residual. Mix Roundup with a broadleaf killer and Roundup will stick around keeping the driveway clear cause roundup is not selective in what it controls. Monsanto is the Champion in plant genetics. Raising more with less. There are roundup ready crops that serve us well too.
We raise plenty of elk right here around the place. Havent seen any limping but they keep their heads down til after the 15th.
Tom
Thanks Tom. So correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying farmers in WA don't use the practice outlined in the article - spraying the standing wheat to hasten ripening a few days before they want to harvest it to make it easier or faster to harvest. If that's what you're saying, then maybe the author is referring to the country's breadbasket east of the Rockies. I'd like to think we do it better in WA.
I think what he's saying is it's used for weed control. Not a couple days before harvest to make it easier to harvest.
http://roundup.ca/_uploads/documents/MON-Preharvest%20Staging%20Guide.pdf (http://roundup.ca/_uploads/documents/MON-Preharvest%20Staging%20Guide.pdf)
Check it out.
Preharvest is the best time for controlling Canada thistle, quackgrass,
perennial sowthistle, dandelion, toadflax, and milkweed.
A preharvest weed control application is an excellent management
strategy to not only control perennial weeds, but to facilitate
harvest management and get a head start on next year’s crop.
So, it's being sprayed for weed control on wheat that's almost ready to harvest. That's what the article was talking about. The reason for performing the spray is almost inconsequential. The result is that Round-Up is being sprayed on wheat just before it's being harvested for our food. What am I missing? I must be missing something. Otherwise, to control Canadian thistle and other weeds, why wouldn't you wait until after harvest to spray? Is it because the wheat stalks are all over the ground after harvest and the Round-Up can't get to the weeds?
Post by: T Pearce on November 14, 2014, 03:08:11 PM
Check it out.
Preharvest is the best time for controlling Canada thistle, quackgrass,
perennial sowthistle, dandelion, toadflax, and milkweed.
A preharvest weed control application is an excellent management
strategy to not only control perennial weeds, but to facilitate
harvest management and get a head start on next year’s crop.
Yes but if you have to spray the whole field you shouldn't have planted in the first place. Chemicals are expensive.
Combine around the weed patches that you went out on a 4 wheeler and treated last month.
I've personally knocked down a lot of wheat fighting Canada Thistle that's for sure. Have seen just the weed patches sprayed from the air too.
The greenies have a big hate with Monsanto and are using the term "Roundup ready" to further their cause (talk radio listener) They use the term Roundup ready in such a way that you can tell they don't have a firm grasp as to which they speak.
My BP skyrockets when I hear it and this Ladies and Gentlemen is why I should avoid the wolf thing with WDFW.
Junk science is just that "Junk"
Thanks
Tom
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 14, 2014, 03:10:32 PM
Post by: 6x6in6 on November 14, 2014, 03:12:54 PM
I really appreciate your input Tom. Thanks. Cigar and drink time! See you all. I agree about the wolves. :bash:Have a sandwich on whole wheat too. :chuckle:
Post by: T Pearce on November 14, 2014, 03:17:21 PM
Thanks buddy, I hope I didn't ruin it for you :tup:
T
Post by: T Pearce on November 14, 2014, 03:23:53 PM
Beer thirty!
I have a great sourdough bread recipe if anyone would like it. (I doubt it's local grain that I use, Bought at Walmart so it's probably laced with rodenticide direct from CHINA)
Cheers
Tom
Post by: denali on November 14, 2014, 03:30:09 PM
Denali's license is current (His avatar) and mine isn't. chemical use can change. SO...... with that said, I would like to rely on his testimony from here on.
Thanks buddy, I hope I didn't ruin it for you :tup:
T
:chuckle: :chuckle: This herbicide discussion is a lot like work >:( I come here for the big bucks and brite fish !
Post by: idahohuntr on November 14, 2014, 03:35:15 PM
:yeah: Couldn't agree more...when I see folks with a limited understanding of an issue try to make cause and effect statements its always concerning.
Junk science is just that "Junk"
Post by: T Pearce on November 14, 2014, 03:52:28 PM
T
Ps probably something new since then. >:(
Post by: jackelope on November 14, 2014, 03:58:13 PM
Thanks John,
Roundup is used primarily as a weeder. Wheat is cured naturally in the sun late June early July. We will spray roundup on a field to clear volunteer crops (wheat that was knocked down during harvest and has sprouted). Faster and more efficient to fly on after spring green up. Then plant whatever you wish, no residual. Mix Roundup with a broadleaf killer and Roundup will stick around keeping the driveway clear cause roundup is not selective in what it controls. Monsanto is the Champion in plant genetics. Raising more with less. There are roundup ready crops that serve us well too.
We raise plenty of elk right here around the place. Havent seen any limping but they keep their heads down til after the 15th.
Tom
Thanks Tom. So correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying farmers in WA don't use the practice outlined in the article - spraying the standing wheat to hasten ripening a few days before they want to harvest it to make it easier or faster to harvest. If that's what you're saying, then maybe the author is referring to the country's breadbasket east of the Rockies. I'd like to think we do it better in WA.
I think what he's saying is it's used for weed control. Not a couple days before harvest to make it easier to harvest.
http://roundup.ca/_uploads/documents/MON-Preharvest%20Staging%20Guide.pdf (http://roundup.ca/_uploads/documents/MON-Preharvest%20Staging%20Guide.pdf)
Check it out.
Preharvest is the best time for controlling Canada thistle, quackgrass,
perennial sowthistle, dandelion, toadflax, and milkweed.
A preharvest weed control application is an excellent management
strategy to not only control perennial weeds, but to facilitate
harvest management and get a head start on next year’s crop.
So, it's being sprayed for weed control on wheat that's almost ready to harvest. That's what the article was talking about. The reason for performing the spray is almost inconsequential. The result is that Round-Up is being sprayed on wheat just before it's being harvested for our food. What am I missing? I must be missing something. Otherwise, to control Canadian thistle and other weeds, why wouldn't you wait until after harvest to spray? Is it because the wheat stalks are all over the ground after harvest and the Round-Up can't get to the weeds?
Probably not as most of the wheat stubble I've seen gets bailed(off the ground) after harvest.
:dunno:
Post by: T Pearce on November 14, 2014, 04:20:13 PM
Spraying the whole field for this would be a poor pratice...... way too much money.Thanks John,
Roundup is used primarily as a weeder. Wheat is cured naturally in the sun late June early July. We will spray roundup on a field to clear volunteer crops (wheat that was knocked down during harvest and has sprouted). Faster and more efficient to fly on after spring green up. Then plant whatever you wish, no residual. Mix Roundup with a broadleaf killer and Roundup will stick around keeping the driveway clear cause roundup is not selective in what it controls. Monsanto is the Champion in plant genetics. Raising more with less. There are roundup ready crops that serve us well too.
We raise plenty of elk right here around the place. Havent seen any limping but they keep their heads down til after the 15th.
Tom
Thanks Tom. So correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying farmers in WA don't use the practice outlined in the article - spraying the standing wheat to hasten ripening a few days before they want to harvest it to make it easier or faster to harvest. If that's what you're saying, then maybe the author is referring to the country's breadbasket east of the Rockies. I'd like to think we do it better in WA.
I think what he's saying is it's used for weed control. Not a couple days before harvest to make it easier to harvest.
http://roundup.ca/_uploads/documents/MON-Preharvest%20Staging%20Guide.pdf (http://roundup.ca/_uploads/documents/MON-Preharvest%20Staging%20Guide.pdf)
Check it out.
Preharvest is the best time for controlling Canada thistle, quackgrass,
perennial sowthistle, dandelion, toadflax, and milkweed.
A preharvest weed control application is an excellent management
strategy to not only control perennial weeds, but to facilitate
harvest management and get a head start on next year’s crop.
So, it's being sprayed for weed control on wheat that's almost ready to harvest. That's what the article was talking about. The reason for performing the spray is almost inconsequential. The result is that Round-Up is being sprayed on wheat just before it's being harvested for our food. What am I missing? I must be missing something. Otherwise, to control Canadian thistle and other weeds, why wouldn't you wait until after harvest to spray? Is it because the wheat stalks are all over the ground after harvest and the Round-Up can't get to the weeds?
Probably not as most of the wheat stubble I've seen gets bailed(off the ground) after harvest.
:dunno:
I have friends in the bus not living that large and barely hanging on.
Luckily there is a market for wheat straw (baled stubble) and weedy first and second cuttings of hay.
Post by: Special T on November 21, 2014, 06:14:13 PM
Post by: JJB11B on November 21, 2014, 06:19:59 PM
I have worked on a few mid sized wheat ranches in SE WA. and have never seen Round-UP used to kill wheat stalks. We use round up and 2-4-D to kill weeds after harvest. In fact the only time I see round up used is on fallow fields I don't know anyone that sprays roundup on planted wheat.Thanks John,
Roundup is used primarily as a weeder. Wheat is cured naturally in the sun late June early July. We will spray roundup on a field to clear volunteer crops (wheat that was knocked down during harvest and has sprouted). Faster and more efficient to fly on after spring green up. Then plant whatever you wish, no residual. Mix Roundup with a broadleaf killer and Roundup will stick around keeping the driveway clear cause roundup is not selective in what it controls. Monsanto is the Champion in plant genetics. Raising more with less. There are roundup ready crops that serve us well too.
We raise plenty of elk right here around the place. Havent seen any limping but they keep their heads down til after the 15th.
Tom
Thanks Tom. So correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying farmers in WA don't use the practice outlined in the article - spraying the standing wheat to hasten ripening a few days before they want to harvest it to make it easier or faster to harvest. If that's what you're saying, then maybe the author is referring to the country's breadbasket east of the Rockies. I'd like to think we do it better in WA.
Post by: T Pearce on November 21, 2014, 06:21:26 PM
Im gluelton intolerant and no longer eat wheat or drink beer. I can tell you that what sparks my interest in this is the fact that probles with wheat is realitivley new. As with any search, the discovery process is trying to connect the dotts that May be just coincidental. I will try and some some research as to if certain important dates coinside.Life without beer. How bad was the reaction to gluten?
Post by: motg9_6 on November 21, 2014, 06:29:52 PM
Post by: Special T on November 21, 2014, 07:58:08 PM
Post by: RadSav on November 21, 2014, 08:12:04 PM
I have worked on a few mid sized wheat ranches in SE WA. and have never seen Round-UP used to kill wheat stalks. We use round up and 2-4-D to kill weeds after harvest. In fact the only time I see round up used is on fallow fields I don't know anyone that sprays roundup on planted wheat.
That has been my experience in E. Oregon as well.
Post by: T Pearce on November 21, 2014, 08:18:41 PM
Probably various strains as well. Sounds like the strain the elk get can be spread. Maybe they all can be spread?
Post by: motg9_6 on November 21, 2014, 08:50:24 PM
Post by: t6 on November 21, 2014, 10:53:27 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on November 21, 2014, 11:18:51 PM
Post by: montana44mag on November 21, 2014, 11:35:45 PM
I also dont hunt anywhere near farmland usually, but I guess the timberland is screwed now....just great.
Post by: Greenhorn on November 21, 2014, 11:53:47 PM
"Common wheat harvest protocol in the United States is to drench the wheat fields with Roundup several days before the combine harvesters work through the fields as the practice allows for an earlier, easier and bigger harvest
Pre-harvest application of the herbicide Roundup or other herbicides containing the deadly active ingredient glyphosate to wheat and barley as a desiccant was suggested as early as 1980. It has since become routine over the past 15 years and is used as a drying agent 7-10 days before harvest within the conventional farming community."
We have about 2,000 acres of wheat that we have been "direct seeding" for the last 15 years and have never used Round-up in this manner. I have never heard of Round-up being used like this with any of the farmers in the Horse Heaven hills in South Central WA. We use Round-up pre-planting in the spring (about 16-24oz/acre) to kill anything green in the field and then we seed about 2 weeks later. Sometimes we will also spray Round-up in the fall after harvest if there has been adequate rain to green things up before winter. I think the article is ridiculous.
Post by: LDennis24 on November 22, 2014, 12:51:31 AM
Post by: RadSav on November 22, 2014, 01:54:48 AM
Radsav...... Hoof rot is not only an issue to elk in SW WA. Is in OR as well.
I've only heard of a single case in Oregon. Though I have seen a lot of posters and flyers asking folks to report sightings. Where did you hear that Oregon is having a problem? I'd like to read up on that!
Post by: Bean Counter on November 22, 2014, 04:07:05 AM
I am very, very slightly allergic to wheat but not enough to deter me from a good stack of pancakes or bowl of cereal (like I'm eating right now). Question: can a grower label wheat foods and still use Roundup type products? I know that just because its organic doesn't mean its herbicide/pesticide free.
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 22, 2014, 06:38:21 AM
P-Man,
I am very, very slightly allergic to wheat but not enough to deter me from a good stack of pancakes or bowl of cereal (like I'm eating right now). Question: can a grower label wheat foods and still use Roundup type products? I know that just because its organic doesn't mean its herbicide/pesticide free.
I found this:
"...many people seek organic produce, believing organic food will be safer. Often, people do not consider that organic food may have been exposed to chemical solutions like pesticides and herbicides. In fact, United States law allows organic farmers to use pesticides and herbicides as long as they are made from natural sources. The U.S. Department of Agriculture permits substances such as chlorine, copper sulfate, peracetic acid, and sulfur dioxide in organic pesticides and herbicides. A ‘natural chemical’ does not necessarily mean it is safe. Often farmers need to use more of an organic pesticide or herbicide to make them effective than if they were using a conventional pesticide or herbicide."
http://vegesystems.com/does-organic-always-mean-free-from-pesticides-and-herbicides/ (http://vegesystems.com/does-organic-always-mean-free-from-pesticides-and-herbicides/)
Post by: GBoyd on November 22, 2014, 07:50:25 AM
Post by: Sandberm on November 22, 2014, 08:18:02 AM
I work running trials on agricultural chemicals and so I follow the health-related studies on pesticides fairly closely. I have to say I hate articles like this. Any time a person talks about science in a politicized, fear-mongering, or inflammatory way, you can be sure that they aren't talking good science.
I agree with the fear-mongering stuff. When I read an article like this and I come to the part where it says the wheat is "drenched", I know there is an agenda to scare the public.
Why cant we have sound science on pesticides without the suspicion that the study is either funded by anti pesticide groups or former execs from Monsanto working in the government?
Lets broaden this discussion out a bit shall we. If in essence what the true fear is, is exposing ourselves to an un natural substance then where do we draw the line? I bet everything we touch is treated or exposed to some chemical that didnt exist 125 years ago, why go after only Roundup?
Non-stick pans, plastic water bottles.....I heard somebody on the radio the other day claim that banning leaded gas is the reason there has been a decline in violent crime...there was a guy on Fox news the other day that said there is carcinogens in Anti-bacterial soap...deoderant, toothpaste, lead in paint, fire retardant, radio waves from cell phones...
Take your pick.
Post by: chester on November 22, 2014, 08:43:48 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: RadSav on November 22, 2014, 10:20:25 AM
Post by: T Pearce on November 22, 2014, 10:31:53 AM
Thanks for your support.I work running trials on agricultural chemicals and so I follow the health-related studies on pesticides fairly closely. I have to say I hate articles like this. Any time a person talks about science in a politicized, fear-mongering, or inflammatory way, you can be sure that they aren't talking good science.
I agree with the fear-mongering stuff. When I read an article like this and I come to the part where it says the wheat is "drenched", I know there is an agenda to scare the public.
Why cant we have sound science on pesticides without the suspicion that the study is either funded by anti pesticide groups or former execs from Monsanto working in the government?
Lets broaden this discussion out a bit shall we. If in essence what the true fear is, is exposing ourselves to an un natural substance then where do we draw the line? I bet everything we touch is treated or exposed to some chemical that didnt exist 125 years ago, why go after only Roundup?
Non-stick pans, plastic water bottles.....I heard somebody on the radio the other day claim that banning leaded gas is the reason there has been a decline in violent crime...there was a guy on Fox news the other day that said there is carcinogens in Anti-bacterial soap...deoderant, toothpaste, lead in paint, fire retardant, radio waves from cell phones...
Take your pick.
However, I dont think bashing the only news source is the way to fly.
Spose next youre going to attack Rush?
Post by: chester on November 22, 2014, 10:49:15 AM
Except every specialist has mentioned it is not related to bovine hoof rot and there are no ag fields in the mud flow. Not sure why they have not at least tried adding selenium to the feed in the mud flow as you would for bovine and sheep with hoof rot, but the state seems confident it would be senseless since it was not the same strain.
That is correct, but it did not originate in the mudflow . It seems to be spreading rapidly. From what I've gathered reading all these threads the "specialists" don't have a clue where it came from. Every one of them has a different theory and at this point none of them are proven. I just happen to live in a place where at any given time I can go to farm fields and see limpers by the dozen or go deep into the tree farms with sprayed cuts and find elk walking with 4 good hooves. I'm not saying I know where it comes from I'm just saying the spraying theory just doesn't add up from what I see with my eyes.
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Post by: Special T on November 22, 2014, 10:56:39 AM
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/07/23/why-is-wheat-gluten-disorder-on-the-rise.aspx# (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/07/23/why-is-wheat-gluten-disorder-on-the-rise.aspx#)!
Obviously there is no proof its just correlation. The rise in auto immune related diseases/symptoms is why this is hard to track down.
I had bad asthma as a kid. In my 20's i developed excema (skin dryness). In my 30's i started developing fatigue right after lunch... I felt like i needed an "old man nap". My mother figured out 5-6 years before i did that she was Gluten intolerant, so at her prompting i gave up wheat and all its related products. It took me a few months but I felt great, lost 2" off my belt (mostly due to not being bloated). after my first 6 months or so I stopped having any asthma problems and have never had a re occurrence of excema. All of these problems took time to develop and as soon as i eliminated the source of the problem my body healed and the problems went away.
I have no idea if these chemicals are related to the problem discussed, however i can tell you first hand the effects of a long term irritant that cannot be avoided. (because i didnt know in my case) Round up is only a "Mild" Toxin. So if it was only consumed in small quantities with no consistency there likely would be no problems. If the constant irritant of Roundup (or other chemicals are anything like mine, i could see the problem as a "probable" source.
Post by: T Pearce on November 22, 2014, 11:01:01 AM
Post by: T Pearce on November 22, 2014, 11:10:15 AM
I think one of the reasons why people are concernted with Roundup and GMO is that it is close proximity to certain health issues. Roundup was "invented" in the 70's, its pattens ran out in 2000 and its use grew. In 07 the introduction of GMO round up ready plants gave further rise to Roundups use as well as its generics.Sounds good.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/07/23/why-is-wheat-gluten-disorder-on-the-rise.aspx# (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/07/23/why-is-wheat-gluten-disorder-on-the-rise.aspx#)!
Obviously there is no proof its just correlation. The rise in auto immune related diseases/symptoms is why this is hard to track down.
I had bad asthma as a kid. In my 20's i developed excema (skin dryness). In my 30's i started developing fatigue right after lunch... I felt like i needed an "old man nap". My mother figured out 5-6 years before i did that she was Gluten intolerant, so at her prompting i gave up wheat and all its related products. It took me a few months but I felt great, lost 2" off my belt (mostly due to not being bloated). after my first 6 months or so I stopped having any asthma problems and have never had a re occurrence of excema. All of these problems took time to develop and as soon as i eliminated the source of the problem my body healed and the problems went away.
I have no idea if these chemicals are related to the problem discussed, however i can tell you first hand the effects of a long term irritant that cannot be avoided. (because i didnt know in my case) Round up is only a "Mild" Toxin. So if it was only consumed in small quantities with no consistency there likely would be no problems. If the constant irritant of Roundup (or other chemicals are anything like mine, i could see the problem as a "probable" source.
But I would have to give up Beer and that could be fatal..... just say'n
Post by: RadSav on November 22, 2014, 11:31:36 AM
Except every specialist has mentioned it is not related to bovine hoof rot and there are no ag fields in the mud flow. Not sure why they have not at least tried adding selenium to the feed in the mud flow as you would for bovine and sheep with hoof rot, but the state seems confident it would be senseless since it was not the same strain.
That is correct, but it did not originate in the mudflow . It seems to be spreading rapidly. From what I've gathered reading all these threads the "specialists" don't have a clue where it came from. Every one of them has a different theory and at this point none of them are proven.
True there!
The odd thing down here is we saw almost zero spraying until about 10 years ago. About six years ago they went absolutely crazy with the spraying! Ten years ago I had never seen an elk with hoof rot. Five years ago hoof rot exploded in the region and we started seeing it everywhere. What changed in that time frame? Farm land elk had always been there. Not like they just started coming down into farmer fields. If looking for triggers I think it would be crazy not to at least take a long hard look and form a study on the spraying. Not saying that is the cause, but from my vantage point it is the only common denominator and worth more study. Something WDFW doesn't seem interested in. Even as you say, "specialists don't have a clue where it came from."
Likely a combination of factors. Could have originated with some odd strain of bovine, sheep or goat bacteria and the reduced immune system due to spraying allowed it to manifest into something unique. That is one of the more likely theories I have heard so far. Neither one being the root cause, but together a recipe for trouble. Sure hope we can find solid evidence and answers soon before elk hunting in SW Washington is gone for decades!!
Post by: T Pearce on November 22, 2014, 12:02:42 PM
Well written Rad,Except every specialist has mentioned it is not related to bovine hoof rot and there are no ag fields in the mud flow. Not sure why they have not at least tried adding selenium to the feed in the mud flow as you would for bovine and sheep with hoof rot, but the state seems confident it would be senseless since it was not the same strain.
That is correct, but it did not originate in the mudflow . It seems to be spreading rapidly. From what I've gathered reading all these threads the "specialists" don't have a clue where it came from. Every one of them has a different theory and at this point none of them are proven.
True there!
The odd thing down here is we saw almost zero spraying until about 10 years ago. About six years ago the went absolutely crazy with the spraying! Ten years ago I had never seen an elk with hoof rot. Five years ago hoof rot exploded in the region and we started seeing it everywhere. What changed in that time frame? Farm land elk had always been there. Not like they just started coming down into farmer fields. If looking for triggers I think it would be crazy not to at least take a long hard look and form a study on the spraying. Not saying that is the cause, but from my vantage point it is the only common denominator and worth more study. Something WDFW doesn't seem interested in. Even as you say, "specialists don't have a clue where it came from."
Likely a combination of factors. Could have originated with some odd strain of bovine, sheep or goat bacteria and the reduced immune system due to spraying allowed it to manifest into something unique. That is one of the more likely theories I have heard so far. Neither one being the root cause, but together a recipe for trouble. Sure hope we can find solid evidence and answers soon before elk hunting in SW Washington is gone for decades!!
Thanks for the realistic look at solving this issue.
Hearing what we do from the so called experts. "knee jerk reaction" from the other side. It's hard for me to not get spun up at times and lable /ignore certain so called experts. It's the junk science thing.
When this post first came up I thought pman was the enemy. His second post caused me to rethink his position.....I hope we can figure this out before the herd is gone.
Maybe american farmers are the bad guys? But let's not have that discussion anywhere near our pantries.
Tom
Having a problem posting this due to my last statement. I will continue to fight for our farmers, cattlemen and washingtons wildlife/game animals.
And yes Runamuk, I believe in miracles
Post by: chester on November 22, 2014, 12:33:29 PM
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Post by: T Pearce on November 22, 2014, 01:52:59 PM
If they are here I've not noticed them. Nor have I ignored any poster.
And yes I can be a "Negative Nancy"
They say the first step in the healing process is admitting you have a problem.
I hate to say it but it sounds as if the pasture herd needs help in a bad way. I hope we can give that without killing them all.
T
Post by: RadSav on November 22, 2014, 02:38:42 PM
The first time I ever saw a bad hoof was in 2004 on an archery bull killed about 400 yards behind a green grass pasture in the willapa hills unit. By 2008 it was common to see a couple In a herd in the farm fields and we even killed a couple Bulls with it. Now I can find entire herds with every cow, yearlings, calves, and raghorn suffering from it. Almost exclusively they are the ones feeding in the fields at night. I've heard reports of a couple running around higher in the ryderwood area . But still fairly close to ag fields. I started hunting further away and can say that the herds further away from hwy 6 show no signs of it. I haven't seen it get to the north river unit yet. But it seems to be really concentrated near the farm land along the hwy here. I'm not sure about Naselle and the same story on hwy 4. It's just a theory of mine but I'm guessing someone got a bad batch of feed or infected livestock and probably treated the livestock but the elk exposed to it spread with no treatment. It's all just theoretical tho.
Last cow I took off the mainline between Doty and Green Creek was the only cow of eleven that did not show signs of hoof rot. There were four young bulls in the herd also. None of which showed any signs. Used to be a ton of elk in there. Now you are lucky to cut a track during season...like just about every other SW Washington unit >:( Four or five years ago timber companies sprayed the living tarnation out of the Fall River unit. Year before there were still a fair amount of elk and a tone of young buck blacktail. The last few years I have not seen a branched buck and very few deer in total. Finding elk during season is a challenge at best.
Uptick in hunting pressure over the past five years hasn't helped much either. For about ten years we would hunt it in the late season and have the unit dang near to ourselves. And some days during the week we could go a whole day and not see another soul! Those were good times. Now if you show up five minutes late there are a dozen trucks at the good spots. A lot has changed! Hard to point a finger at just one thing. But until we get solid information I think any and all possibilities should be on the table!
Post by: RadSav on November 22, 2014, 02:47:29 PM
And yes I can be a "Negative Nancy"
Well call me "Nancy" too! Hard to stay positive when we are losing 50% a year. And the elk you are seeing are hurting and struggling. As a steward of the land it pulls on the heart strings as bad as angering the sportman's fervor. Anyone who appreciates wildlife should be just sick about how this has played out - hunters and anti's alike! Was ignored for way too long and then when it grew out of control the purse strings were pulled tight. One of the largest herds in America GONE in less than ten years. "Negative Nancy?" You bet I am!!
Post by: chester on November 22, 2014, 07:43:56 PM
I remember those days you speak of ten years ago in the Fall River unit. I account the loss of deer with a big up swing in predators in the area. More cats and yotes then ever before running around there. You had the late season to your self because all the locals were tagged out lol. But the elk there are starting to feel the hoof rot effects finally. I'm still not seeing it as much or very little up on p and e ridge. Further toward the sort side is getting bad.(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftapatalk.imageshack.com%2Fv2%2F14%2F11%2F22%2Fed5883e1f8098df38f1e8a2dd2ca7a89.jpg&hash=ce72d82b41e995e176a3919652031d599b3f50f9) (https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftapatalk.imageshack.com%2Fv2%2F14%2F11%2F22%2F816ed336490fdd142680775d7daff97d.jpg&hash=814a9c91d1fff6a7c14c3ff0cbcfdbf0673a8b38) (https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftapatalk.imageshack.com%2Fv2%2F14%2F11%2F22%2F03e59864b6a15dd975912e8c12560d7b.jpg&hash=dfdbc2fc74ae4a57ebf9db2d6461c9d5822c47a0) crappy cell pics but the entire herd couldn't do much more then crawl away. State grounds pretty sure near where the cow you mentioned came from
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Post by: RadSav on November 22, 2014, 07:56:14 PM
Assuming that is where I think it is!
Post by: T Pearce on November 22, 2014, 07:57:35 PM
Sorry to hear this.
Post by: chester on November 22, 2014, 08:04:58 PM
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Post by: t6 on November 24, 2014, 12:07:06 AM
Oregon Fish and Wildlife admitted that they killed elk around the Tillamook area that were suffering from "Bacterial Leg Deformities"
In 2013 they had contract hunters kill off by their admission was 60 some animals. I spoke with one of those contract hunters and he said it was over 100 animals.
ODFW had those contract hunters sign a non disclosure document however, because the sick elk are a potential health risk to the public, such a document or forced compliance would be unlawful.
ODFW did the killings in secret and attempted to keep it that way. Why? Could it be because it blows up the theory quoted to us in Hoof Rot Meetings by our very own WDFW when they said "It couldn't be herbicides, they spray it in Oregon and they don't have hoof rot there."
ODFW has now admitted to those killings and the presence of Hoof Rot in Oregon. There have also been other documented areas as well.
We asked ODFW what if any Bacteria was present in the elk they killed. The didn't have an answer for us. The contract hunter I talked to said that he didn't see any testing done before the elk were dumped and buried.
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 07, 2015, 02:09:39 PM
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/09/14/glyphosate-celiac-disease-connection.aspx? (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/09/14/glyphosate-celiac-disease-connection.aspx?)
Post by: Greenhorn on January 07, 2015, 04:17:17 PM
http://www.snopes.com/food/tainted/roundupwheat.asp (http://www.snopes.com/food/tainted/roundupwheat.asp)
Post by: idahohuntr on January 07, 2015, 05:06:56 PM
Post by: Mudman on January 07, 2015, 10:51:23 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 08, 2015, 04:54:22 AM
Very interesting science. I learned something new. I wonder if elk have been tested for mineral deficient or glyposate in urine? Bet not. Who knows? Why not test, along with atrazine levels? I do know one thing-I would never spray my garden with roundup. :bdid: Would any Farmer be confident enough to do it, and if so why? This stuff stays in the plant and in the soils a considerable time.
They haven't been testing for it and "why not?" has been asked several times. The people wondering about the possible connection can't understand why the biologists involved wouldn't want to rule out as much as possible.
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 08, 2015, 06:22:07 AM
Who desiccates their wheat with glyphosate?
http://www.snopes.com/food/tainted/roundupwheat.asp (http://www.snopes.com/food/tainted/roundupwheat.asp)
This is a different study than Pope's. This one is from MIT and By Dr. Mercola. I had put up a link for Pope's article earlier in this thread. In the Monsanto guide for Round-Up, it clearly shows how to perform desiccation.
Post by: RELV on January 08, 2015, 06:54:45 AM
I gotta go with what snopes says, I've worked on wheat farms from the Palouse to the Skagit Valley and never saw or heard of spraying roundup just prior to harvest. It would be a waste of money.
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 08, 2015, 06:55:52 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 08, 2015, 06:59:56 AM
Please note that the guide is from Western Australia (WA), not the state of Washington.
I gotta go with what snopes says, I've worked on wheat farms from the Palouse to the Skagit Valley and never saw or heard of spraying roundup just prior to harvest. It would be a waste of money.
That's good input. I'd hope no one would use it as a desiccant, but apparently on a national scale, it's used widely. The one part of the article that talks about the huge increases in anencephaly or microcephaly in WA is disturbing, though. Without seeing the study firsthand, it's hard to create a causal relationship, but the scientists certainly seem to think it exists.
Post by: idahohuntr on January 08, 2015, 08:05:32 AM
Because they have already identified the cause and there was never a sign of toxicity that warranted such detailed chemical analysis. Go read the bugle magazine story by rich landers on this subject...he lays out very accurately what wdfw has done and why toxicity was ruled out early on.Very interesting science. I learned something new. I wonder if elk have been tested for mineral deficient or glyposate in urine? Bet not. Who knows? Why not test, along with atrazine levels? I do know one thing-I would never spray my garden with roundup. :bdid: Would any Farmer be confident enough to do it, and if so why? This stuff stays in the plant and in the soils a considerable time.
They haven't been testing for it and "why not?" has been asked several times. The people wondering about the possible connection can't understand why the biologists involved wouldn't want to rule out as much as possible.
If you have blood drawn at the doctors office does he provide you with your levels of glyphosate and atrazine?
Post by: idahohuntr on January 08, 2015, 08:07:59 AM
Please note that the guide is from Western Australia (WA), not the state of Washington.Now that is funny!
I gotta go with what snopes says, I've worked on wheat farms from the Palouse to the Skagit Valley and never saw or heard of spraying roundup just prior to harvest. It would be a waste of money.
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 08, 2015, 08:10:18 AM
Because they have already identified the cause and there was never a sign of toxicity that warranted such detailed chemical analysis. Go read the bugle magazine story by rich landers on this subject...he lays out very accurately what wdfw has done and why toxicity was ruled out early on.Very interesting science. I learned something new. I wonder if elk have been tested for mineral deficient or glyposate in urine? Bet not. Who knows? Why not test, along with atrazine levels? I do know one thing-I would never spray my garden with roundup. :bdid: Would any Farmer be confident enough to do it, and if so why? This stuff stays in the plant and in the soils a considerable time.
They haven't been testing for it and "why not?" has been asked several times. The people wondering about the possible connection can't understand why the biologists involved wouldn't want to rule out as much as possible.
If you have blood drawn at the doctors office does he provide you with your levels of glyphosate and atrazine?
Only when I come down with hoof disease. I know you love the WDFW very much and think they would never do us wrong, but the Bugle article reflects only the information given them by the WDFW. It's hardly an independent study.
Post by: kentrek on January 08, 2015, 08:36:05 AM
Which is what again ??
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 08, 2015, 08:46:25 AM
Post by: kentrek on January 08, 2015, 08:58:57 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 08, 2015, 09:06:57 AM
An what's the cause of the bacteria ?? That is the only "cause" that is worth solving....they can kill off the elk but unless they solve the root of the problem things will never change...but like with so many other issues in the world the root cause will be over looked/ignored an nothing will be solved
The bacteria is common in the ground, especially in wet environments. Why these elk have hoof disease it and others don't, they don't know. Why it's starting to show up in other areas, they don't know. I personally feel they don't know a lot of things, including what's causing the hoof disease. Their esteemed panel of scientists didn't do anything about it for almost 20 years after it started appearing. Not until 2008 did they start working on it and then, only after they'd been dogged by a specific and tenacious group of outdoorsmen. The performed necropsies each year for 5 years without testing for agricultural chemicals once, not once. The esteemed panel includes a hired gun scientist for the herbicide industry who is a professional witness in liability claims made against Syngenta and Monsanto for diseases believed to be tied to the herbicides Atrazine(TM) and Glyphosate (TM).
Post by: magnanimous_j on January 08, 2015, 09:12:07 AM
Post by: Special T on January 08, 2015, 09:40:01 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 08, 2015, 09:56:36 AM
I don’t know for sure what the cause is, but wheat has been a staple of the human diet for thousands of years. Suddenly, in the last couple decades, an increasing number of people are having bad reactions to it. Something’s going on.
I stopped eating anything with wheat in it a couple of months ago. I'm not interested in consuming glyphosate or designer wheat. The dwarf wheat that's produced today is almost another crop from the wheat we ate 50 years ago. It's been designed to yield many times as much per acre and in fewer weeks growing time. I think we're making a huge mistake with some of our agricultural products in this country and around the world. Even Putin won't let Russians do desiccation. What does that tell you?
Post by: idahohuntr on January 08, 2015, 10:02:07 AM
I know you love conspiracy theories very much, and you hate state fish and wildlife management staff, but are you also now alleging that RMEF (an independet non-profit elk conservation organization) and Rich Landers (an independent outdoors journalist) are in on this grand conspiracy with Big Timber, Chemical companies, and WDFW?? Or are you simply alleging that WDFW is on the conspiracy with Big Timber and Chemical Companies and its just that Rich Landers and the Staff at RMEF are too stupid to understand what is going on?Because they have already identified the cause and there was never a sign of toxicity that warranted such detailed chemical analysis. Go read the bugle magazine story by rich landers on this subject...he lays out very accurately what wdfw has done and why toxicity was ruled out early on.Very interesting science. I learned something new. I wonder if elk have been tested for mineral deficient or glyposate in urine? Bet not. Who knows? Why not test, along with atrazine levels? I do know one thing-I would never spray my garden with roundup. :bdid: Would any Farmer be confident enough to do it, and if so why? This stuff stays in the plant and in the soils a considerable time.
They haven't been testing for it and "why not?" has been asked several times. The people wondering about the possible connection can't understand why the biologists involved wouldn't want to rule out as much as possible.
If you have blood drawn at the doctors office does he provide you with your levels of glyphosate and atrazine?
Only when I come down with hoof disease. I know you love the WDFW very much and think they would never do us wrong, but the Bugle article reflects only the information given them by the WDFW. It's hardly an independent study.
Post by: idahohuntr on January 08, 2015, 10:11:16 AM
Again, it appears issues are being blended and they are not the same. The cause of hoof rot and diagnosis and management of that disease is one thing, and all evidence to date makes it clear toxicity is not the cause.I don’t know for sure what the cause is, but wheat has been a staple of the human diet for thousands of years. Suddenly, in the last couple decades, an increasing number of people are having bad reactions to it. Something’s going on.
I stopped eating anything with wheat in it a couple of months ago. I'm not interested in consuming glyphosate or designer wheat. The dwarf wheat that's produced today is almost another crop from the wheat we ate 50 years ago. It's been designed to yield many times as much per acre and in fewer weeks growing time. I think we're making a huge mistake with some of our agricultural products in this country and around the world. Even Putin won't let Russians do desiccation. What does that tell you?
Harmful chemicals in the environment is a broader issue, and just because one might argue that roundup is not the cause of hoof rot does not mean one favors unlimited chemicals in the environment. As I mentioned earlier, I really think the folks with all of these chemical/toxicity concerns should not really focus on WDFW, but rather they need to advocate for stricter Environmental Regulations and much more enforcement of existing environmental regulations. Piano, you and Mag should be writing your congressmen demanding increased funding to EPA (which has been cut substantially) and you should vote for representatives that will advocate your desire to substantially increase state and federal environmental regulations. Are you guys members of Cascadia Wildlands, Earthjustice and Conservation Northwest? They are advocates of similar policies and share your concerns.
Post by: magnanimous_j on January 08, 2015, 10:21:44 AM
I don’t know for sure what the cause is, but wheat has been a staple of the human diet for thousands of years. Suddenly, in the last couple decades, an increasing number of people are having bad reactions to it. Something’s going on.
I stopped eating anything with wheat in it a couple of months ago. I'm not interested in consuming glyphosate or designer wheat. The dwarf wheat that's produced today is almost another crop from the wheat we ate 50 years ago. It's been designed to yield many times as much per acre and in fewer weeks growing time. I think we're making a huge mistake with some of our agricultural products in this country and around the world. Even Putin won't let Russians do desiccation. What does that tell you?
I’ve read that. There is a lot of money to be made on heirloom wheat strains.
It’s funny you mention the Russians. They are really skittish when it comes to their food. I think microwaves were illegal until the 70’s there.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 08, 2015, 10:28:23 AM
Not to detract too much, but there is a Vice segment about hunting radioactive wolves in Chernobyl. When the guys get closer and closer to areas of increasingly higher radiation, they just drink more vodka. Said that they believe alcohol has a shielding effect toward ionizing radiation.I don’t know for sure what the cause is, but wheat has been a staple of the human diet for thousands of years. Suddenly, in the last couple decades, an increasing number of people are having bad reactions to it. Something’s going on.
I stopped eating anything with wheat in it a couple of months ago. I'm not interested in consuming glyphosate or designer wheat. The dwarf wheat that's produced today is almost another crop from the wheat we ate 50 years ago. It's been designed to yield many times as much per acre and in fewer weeks growing time. I think we're making a huge mistake with some of our agricultural products in this country and around the world. Even Putin won't let Russians do desiccation. What does that tell you?
I’ve read that. There is a lot of money to be made on heirloom wheat strains.
It’s funny you mention the Russians. They are really skittish when it comes to their food. I think microwaves were illegal until the 70’s there.
Post by: Special T on January 08, 2015, 10:45:39 AM
Perhaps it helpsthem deal with radiation better.
Post by: kentrek on January 08, 2015, 10:59:01 AM
So they really don't know the cause....
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 08, 2015, 11:16:08 AM
"Why these elk have hoof disease it and others don't, they don't know. Why it's starting to show up in other areas, they don't know. "
So they really don't know the cause....
That's how it appears to me. They'll (and another poster in this thread) will tell you they know - treponemes. That's it, end of story. Let's just kill a bunch of limping elk now. :dunno:
Post by: kentrek on January 08, 2015, 11:22:29 AM
"Why these elk have hoof disease it and others don't, they don't know. Why it's starting to show up in other areas, they don't know. "
So they really don't know the cause....
That's how it appears to me. They'll (and another poster in this thread) will tell you they know - treponemes. That's it, end of story. Let's just kill a bunch of limping elk now. :dunno:
Well it is the end of story if you don't live in the middle of a bunch of rotted elk....this whole story stinks...from beginning to what I guess is the "end"....out of site out of mind tho for all the ones that "solved" nothing...
Not sure how idaho hunter can pat wa on the back for doing nothing
Post by: T Pearce on January 08, 2015, 12:03:07 PM
Wolf intro will eliminate the infected animals in a hurry I suspect.
In doing so they will take testing opportunities as well.
Note: I pre treat our garden prior to tilling with roundup.
Prepping for BioFumigation this season too, (plant, mow and rototill the Mustard this year for next year)
I'd like to hear from wheat growers that apply roundup prior to harvest as a "Standard"
Our Potatos are sprayed prior to harvest.
Just sayin
Heirloom seeds are a good thing..... I keep a bunch on hand for the end of the world as we know it.
Post by: Curly on January 08, 2015, 01:01:34 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on January 08, 2015, 01:02:51 PM
Go read the Bugle article and then decide if you actually believe WDFW has done nothing."Why these elk have hoof disease it and others don't, they don't know. Why it's starting to show up in other areas, they don't know. "
So they really don't know the cause....
That's how it appears to me. They'll (and another poster in this thread) will tell you they know - treponemes. That's it, end of story. Let's just kill a bunch of limping elk now. :dunno:
Well it is the end of story if you don't live in the middle of a bunch of rotted elk....this whole story stinks...from beginning to what I guess is the "end"....out of site out of mind tho for all the ones that "solved" nothing...
Not sure how idaho hunter can pat wa on the back for doing nothing
Identifying the cause is a critical step to addressing and managing the problem. Nobody has implied or stated that hoof rot itself is solved as it relates to our elk herds.
Post by: Curly on January 08, 2015, 01:05:13 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 08, 2015, 01:11:48 PM
Post by: kentrek on January 08, 2015, 01:46:34 PM
Go read the Bugle article and then decide if you actually believe WDFW has done nothing."Why these elk have hoof disease it and others don't, they don't know. Why it's starting to show up in other areas, they don't know. "
So they really don't know the cause....
That's how it appears to me. They'll (and another poster in this thread) will tell you they know - treponemes. That's it, end of story. Let's just kill a bunch of limping elk now. :dunno:
Well it is the end of story if you don't live in the middle of a bunch of rotted elk....this whole story stinks...from beginning to what I guess is the "end"....out of site out of mind tho for all the ones that "solved" nothing...
Not sure how idaho hunter can pat wa on the back for doing nothing
Identifying the cause is a critical step to addressing and managing the problem. Nobody has implied or stated that hoof rot itself is solved as it relates to our elk herds.
I don't need to read anything... I've been watching first hand just as barns,pianoman,radsav and many others have....
I have no idea how you can credibly address the problem when automatically ruling out one biggest common denominators(as rad put it) esp when you just admitted that they have no idea how it relates to elk
Post by: idahohuntr on January 08, 2015, 02:00:17 PM
I don't need to read anything... I've been watching first hand just as barns,pianoman,radsav and many others have....Correct. You only need to read if you actually want to be well informed.
I have no idea how you can credibly address the problem when you are hell bent on assigning the cause to something where not one piece of evidence supports said cause. Hoof rot is not caused by chemical toxicity.
I have no idea how you can credibly address the problem when automatically ruling out one biggest common denominators(as rad put it) esp when you just admitted that they have no idea how it relates to elk
Now that we know what causes hoof rot, these treponeme bacteria, we can at least start to decide how best to manage the disease. Can't you understand that differentiating between a bacterial cause and a toxicity cause has extremely divergent approaches to successfully managing the disease?
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 08, 2015, 02:15:21 PM
I don't need to read anything... I've been watching first hand just as barns,pianoman,radsav and many others have....Correct. You only need to read if you actually want to be well informed.I have no idea how you can credibly address the problem when you are hell bent on assigning the cause to something where not one piece of evidence supports said cause. Hoof rot is not caused by chemical toxicity.
I have no idea how you can credibly address the problem when automatically ruling out one biggest common denominators(as rad put it) esp when you just admitted that they have no idea how it relates to elk
Now that we know what causes hoof rot, these treponeme bacteria, we can at least start to decide how best to manage the disease. Can't you understand that differentiating between a bacterial cause and a toxicity cause has extremely divergent approaches to successfully managing the disease?
Herein lies the problem with the WDFW and its rabid, blind followers - deflection and confusion. No one is " hell bent on assigning the cause to something where not one piece of evidence supports said cause." We've said all along that we don't know but a link to chemical toxicity needs to be ruled out through testing and thus far, the WDFW has refused to perform those tests. Also your statement " Hoof rot is not caused by chemical toxicity." is made from the dark places where you keep your head while you wait for another opportunity to stick up for the WDFW. That statement is in no way verifiable because THEY REFUSE TO RUN TESTS ON CHEMICAL TOXICITY. Because of this refusal, they can't definitively say " Hoof rot is not caused by chemical toxicity."
You have many times said that people have claimed a causal relationship to agricultural chemicals when no one has. You'll keep saying it because it deflects from the real problem, a problem that persists - they won't test for it and their "scientific team" has at least the appearance of impropriety with the presence of Dr. Fairbrother on their team. No matter how many times you claim it, no one has said chemicals are the culprit. So quit saying it. And no matter how many times you insist that they're doing everything they can, they haven't, not as long as they refuse to test for agricultural chemicals. Why you continue to try and lead people away from the truth is beyond me, but that's what you do.
Post by: T Pearce on January 08, 2015, 02:28:38 PM
Is there a list of possible causes that they have ruled out?
Thanks
T
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 08, 2015, 02:48:41 PM
Pman,
Is there a list of possible causes that they have ruled out?
Thanks
T
They might have a list. I don't know of one available.
Post by: Special T on January 08, 2015, 04:27:37 PM
I don’t know for sure what the cause is, but wheat has been a staple of the human diet for thousands of years. Suddenly, in the last couple decades, an increasing number of people are having bad reactions to it. Something’s going on.
I stopped eating anything with wheat in it a couple of months ago. I'm not interested in consuming glyphosate or designer wheat. The dwarf wheat that's produced today is almost another crop from the wheat we ate 50 years ago. It's been designed to yield many times as much per acre and in fewer weeks growing time. I think we're making a huge mistake with some of our agricultural products in this country and around the world. Even Putin won't let Russians do desiccation. What does that tell you?
I think there are plenty of good reasons to reduce or elimante MOST refined products in your diet. Wheat happens to be the most common. It is also the easiest for your body to convert to sugar which I think is most of the problem. I'm a pretty big fan of the Paleo diet. (nuts meat fruit and vegatables)
One of the other big issues I see is the lack of variety that we eat... there used to be somethign like 130 differnt common kinds of apples here in the USA. The variety provided more "fresh" coverage and also a variety of nutrients. I think the relative monoculture of todays farming produces the Tonage reqired to sustain life, but the natural variety makes us healither.
Post by: t6 on January 08, 2015, 07:05:50 PM
Twenty years and no tests for toxins that they will admit to. Yeah... Great scientific minds. :o
Keep tootin the WDFW horn. :bdid:
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 09, 2015, 08:21:09 AM
http://www.aganytime.com/Documents/ArticlePDFs/agSpotlight-PreHarvestRoundupPowerMAXHerbicideApplicationsonGrainSorghum.pdf (http://www.aganytime.com/Documents/ArticlePDFs/agSpotlight-PreHarvestRoundupPowerMAXHerbicideApplicationsonGrainSorghum.pdf)
Here's an ag page that describes the advantages of desiccation for crops, especially in the north where ripening can be inconsistent. Note the observations at the end of the page which tell about absorption and ambient levels in humans from consumption of grains and animals fed with treated grains.
http://www.digplanet.com/wiki/Crop_desiccation (http://www.digplanet.com/wiki/Crop_desiccation)
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 09, 2015, 08:28:48 AM
http://www.grainews.ca/2011/07/28/three-steps-to-effective-preharvest-weed-control/ (http://www.grainews.ca/2011/07/28/three-steps-to-effective-preharvest-weed-control/)
GLYPHOSATE IS NOT A DESICCANT
“In a lot of instances, it’s mistakenly used as a desiccant,” says Dale Risula, provincial specialist for specialty crops with the Saskatchewan Ministry of Agriculture. He says that lentil growers should avoid it entirely in pre-harvest applications on that crop. “It would probably be wise not to use glyphosate as a pre-harvest treatment for weed control (in lentils),” he says. The reason is the acceptable limit for glyphosate residue on imported lentils is much lower in Europe than in Canada and the U.S.
“They (Europeans) have a one-part- per-million residue limit on lentils,” he says. “In Canada, it’s four and in the U.S. it’s five.” From a practical standpoint, it may be impossible to achieve a level that low after making a pre-harvest pass. “The timing of application is really crucial,” he says. “In the event it’s applied too early, you can even get glyphosate levels above our own limits.”
Post by: kentrek on January 09, 2015, 09:08:11 AM
I have no idea how you can credibly address the problem when you are hell bent on assigning the cause to something where not one piece of evidence supports said cause. Hoof rot is not caused by chemical toxicity.
I have no idea how you can credibly address the problem when automatically ruling out one biggest common denominators(as rad put it) esp when you just admitted that they have no idea how it relates to elk
Hard to have any evidence when they don't test for it :dunno: how can you be so certain that spraying isn't related to hoof rot in our elk when you just admitted nobody knows how it relates to our elk ?? Im not hell bent on getting spraying banned but I'd love to see the elk come back to how it used to be..and I'd think you'd want solid evidence that spraying isn't making the environment/hosts more conducive to this bacteria before crossing off it as the culprit.
Washington can go ahead an find a cure for bacteria, spend millions of dollars fixing up the elk...but if they don't fix the root problem then it will keep reoccurring
Kind of like a sti...take all the penacilen you want but if you keep going to that bad "environment" your gona sting the next time ya pee :yike:
Post by: idahohuntr on January 09, 2015, 09:39:29 AM
So, I think we agree for the most part. Its not toxicity, so there is no need to do detailed chemical analyses which are not as simple as some probably think...it would be a waste of time and money. However, that does not mean that we should not evaluate how land management practices might effect elk habitat. More specifically, we ought to investigate this treponeme bacteria to better understand what conditions and habitat are favorable to it infecting elk. I am happy to see more and more folks wanting to look at habitat issues :tup:
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 09, 2015, 09:43:22 AM
I have no idea how you can credibly address the problem when you are hell bent on assigning the cause to something where not one piece of evidence supports said cause. Hoof rot is not caused by chemical toxicity.
I have no idea how you can credibly address the problem when automatically ruling out one biggest common denominators(as rad put it) esp when you just admitted that they have no idea how it relates to elk
Hard to have any evidence when they don't test for it :dunno: how can you be so certain that spraying isn't related to hoof rot in our elk when you just admitted nobody knows how it relates to our elk ?? Im not hell bent on getting spraying banned but I'd love to see the elk come back to how it used to be..and I'd think you'd want solid evidence that spraying isn't making the environment/hosts more conducive to this bacteria before crossing off it as the culprit.
Washington can go ahead an find a cure for bacteria, spend millions of dollars fixing up the elk...but if they don't fix the root problem then it will keep reoccurring
Kind of like a sti...take all the penacilen you want but if you keep going to that bad "environment" your gona sting the next time ya pee :yike:
I'd simply like to see it ruled out. Apparently, they're not going to do that.
Post by: LDennis24 on January 09, 2015, 10:10:54 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 09, 2015, 10:21:01 AM
I just don't see how Glyphosate could be the cause when its used around my area and around the Mid- West 10,20,30,40.... times more often than in those area's affected now and hoof rot isn't even being found in these area's. Maybe the bacteria's not as prevelant here but I dunno... :dunno:
The answer to your question is Moisture, which will allow the bacteria to stick around long enough to hitch a ride. Occurrences of hoof disease are happening on the wet side in both OR and WA. And, we're talking about glyphosate and/or Atrazine.
Post by: Coastal_native on January 09, 2015, 12:03:33 PM
I have never disagreed that overall habitat and environmental changes might be at the root of this problem (Go read my comments about a big part of the problem in the Lolo Zone elk herd declines if you don't think I am fully aware of the importance of habitat :bash: ). If spraying has fundamentally changed the habitat perhaps it plays a role in the cycle of treponeme bacteria and hoof rot. :dunno: But that is an entirely different issue than the folks screaming that WDFW needs to test elk tissue/blood for glyphosate and atrazine. WDFW has done a lot of necropsies, inspections, tissue evaluations, paying special attention to important filtering organs and there has been no indication of toxicity which would warrant further analysis of any tissue. When they have looked at liver, kidney etc. tissue under the microscope absolutely no evidence of deformities in those cells...look perfectly healthy...which would indicate that whatever chemicals they are being exposed to...they are not at levels that result in a toxicity problem.
So, I think we agree for the most part. Its not toxicity, so there is no need to do detailed chemical analyses which are not as simple as some probably think...it would be a waste of time and money. However, that does not mean that we should not evaluate how land management practices might effect elk habitat. More specifically, we ought to investigate this treponeme bacteria to better understand what conditions and habitat are favorable to it infecting elk. I am happy to see more and more folks wanting to look at habitat issues :tup:
I tend to agree with this. There's got to be a way of having this discussion about forest practices (including the use of herbicides) outside of the context of the hoof rot discussion.
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 09, 2015, 12:36:35 PM
I have never disagreed that overall habitat and environmental changes might be at the root of this problem (Go read my comments about a big part of the problem in the Lolo Zone elk herd declines if you don't think I am fully aware of the importance of habitat :bash: ). If spraying has fundamentally changed the habitat perhaps it plays a role in the cycle of treponeme bacteria and hoof rot. :dunno: But that is an entirely different issue than the folks screaming that WDFW needs to test elk tissue/blood for glyphosate and atrazine. WDFW has done a lot of necropsies, inspections, tissue evaluations, paying special attention to important filtering organs and there has been no indication of toxicity which would warrant further analysis of any tissue. When they have looked at liver, kidney etc. tissue under the microscope absolutely no evidence of deformities in those cells...look perfectly healthy...which would indicate that whatever chemicals they are being exposed to...they are not at levels that result in a toxicity problem.
So, I think we agree for the most part. Its not toxicity, so there is no need to do detailed chemical analyses which are not as simple as some probably think...it would be a waste of time and money. However, that does not mean that we should not evaluate how land management practices might effect elk habitat. More specifically, we ought to investigate this treponeme bacteria to better understand what conditions and habitat are favorable to it infecting elk. I am happy to see more and more folks wanting to look at habitat issues :tup:
I tend to agree with this. There's got to be a way of having this discussion about forest practices (including the use of herbicides) outside of the context of the hoof rot discussion.
One way to do that, Coastal, would be to rule it out as a cause of hoof disease. Otherwise, the conjecture will continue until something gives.
Post by: idahohuntr on January 09, 2015, 12:38:59 PM
I'd simply like to see it ruled out. Apparently, they're not going to do that.It has been ruled out. Your personal decision to ignore the evidence does not constititute a failure on behalf of WDFW to identify or rule out the proximate cause of hoof rot. :sry:
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 09, 2015, 12:56:28 PM
I'd simply like to see it ruled out. Apparently, they're not going to do that.It has been ruled out. Your personal decision to ignore the evidence does not constititute a failure on behalf of WDFW to identify or rule out the proximate cause of hoof rot. :sry:
Continue to lie if you want, but I was told directly by Dr. Jonker that it's never been tested for. You have less credibility every time you lie to try and support the shoddy work on this problem.
Post by: idahohuntr on January 09, 2015, 01:02:57 PM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on January 09, 2015, 01:35:12 PM
The spraying has eliminated the natural growth that occurs in a forest opening.
This not only greatly reduced the forage base that has the result of concentrating animals in smaller areas, but decreased the root systems that keeps water in the higher elevations.
One thing that is very unique about SW Washington soils is the amount of ash from StHelens.
As this fine (dust) gets washed into the lower elevations it also collects in moist swamp land, fields, etc...
Now by itself, it is probably not harmful, yet it might just be the catalyst that holds the bacteria in concentrated amounts.
By forcing the animals into the lowlands by reducing forage, they are exposed to the bacteria, and transmit it to each other.
:tinfoil:
I don't know what causes it, but I do know that the habitat is suffering. Big differences can be seen by just crossing from private timber land into State land. ,
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 09, 2015, 02:00:37 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on January 11, 2015, 07:25:16 PM
I have a theory,I could definitely see a link between habitat and hoof disease such as what you suggest, which has herbicides as the root cause or a significant link. And as Coastal pointed out, even if there isn't a link does not mean we shouldn't take a hard look at how herbicide practices may be affecting our wildlife and their habitat.
The spraying has eliminated the natural growth that occurs in a forest opening.
This not only greatly reduced the forage base that has the result of concentrating animals in smaller areas, but decreased the root systems that keeps water in the higher elevations.
One thing that is very unique about SW Washington soils is the amount of ash from StHelens.
As this fine (dust) gets washed into the lower elevations it also collects in moist swamp land, fields, etc...
Now by itself, it is probably not harmful, yet it might just be the catalyst that holds the bacteria in concentrated amounts.
By forcing the animals into the lowlands by reducing forage, they are exposed to the bacteria, and transmit it to each other.
:tinfoil:
I don't know what causes it, but I do know that the habitat is suffering. Big differences can be seen by just crossing from private timber land into State land. ,
Its the silly calls for "testing" for herbicides as the direct cause of hoof rot that I find useless, distracting and also neglectful of mountains of existing evidence.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 11, 2015, 07:37:40 PM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on January 11, 2015, 07:46:34 PM