Round-Up in Your Sandwich? Are our hoof-diseased elk eating Wonder Bread?

[RadSav]

Except every specialist has mentioned it is not related to bovine hoof rot and there are no ag fields in the mud flow.  Not sure why they have not at least tried adding selenium to the feed in the mud flow as you would for bovine and sheep with hoof rot, but the state seems confident it would be senseless since it was not the same strain.

[T Pearce]

I work running trials on agricultural chemicals and so I follow the health-related studies on pesticides fairly closely. I have to say I hate articles like this. Any time a person talks about science in a politicized, fear-mongering, or inflammatory way, you can be sure that they aren't talking good science.

I agree with the fear-mongering stuff. When I read an article like this and I come to the part where it says the wheat is "drenched", I know there is an agenda to scare the public.

Why cant we have sound science on pesticides without the suspicion that the study is either funded by anti pesticide groups or former execs from Monsanto working in the government?

Lets broaden this discussion out a bit shall we. If in essence what the true fear is, is exposing ourselves to an un natural substance then where do we draw the line? I bet everything we touch is treated or exposed to some chemical that didnt exist 125 years ago, why go after only Roundup?

Non-stick pans, plastic water bottles.....I heard somebody on the radio the other day claim that banning leaded gas is the reason there has been a decline in violent crime...there was a guy on Fox news the other day that said there is carcinogens in Anti-bacterial soap...deoderant, toothpaste, lead in paint, fire retardant, radio waves from cell phones...

Take your pick.
 

Thanks for your support.
However, I dont think bashing the only news source is the way to fly.
Spose next youre going to attack Rush?

[chester]

Except every specialist has mentioned it is not related to bovine hoof rot and there are no ag fields in the mud flow.  Not sure why they have not at least tried adding selenium to the feed in the mud flow as you would for bovine and sheep with hoof rot, but the state seems confident it would be senseless since it was not the same strain.

That is correct, but it did not originate in the mudflow . It seems to be spreading rapidly. From what I've gathered reading all these threads the "specialists" don't have a clue where it came from. Every one of them has a different theory and at this point none of them are proven. I just happen to live in a place where at any given time I can go to farm fields and see limpers by the dozen or go deep into the tree farms with sprayed cuts and find elk walking with 4 good hooves. I'm not saying I know where it comes from I'm just saying the spraying theory just doesn't add up from what I see with my eyes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Special T]

I think one of the reasons why people are concernted with Roundup  and GMO is that it is close proximity to certain health issues. Roundup was "invented" in the 70's, its pattens ran out in 2000 and its use grew. In 07 the introduction of GMO round up ready plants gave further rise to  Roundups use as well as its generics.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/07/23/why-is-wheat-gluten-disorder-on-the-rise.aspx#!

Obviously there is no proof its just correlation. The rise in auto immune related diseases/symptoms is why this is hard to track down.

I had bad asthma as a kid. In my 20's i developed excema (skin dryness). In my 30's i started developing fatigue right after lunch... I felt like i needed an "old man nap". My mother figured out 5-6 years before i did that she was Gluten intolerant, so at her prompting i gave up wheat and all its related products. It took me a few months but I felt great, lost 2" off my belt (mostly due to not being bloated). after my first 6 months or so  I stopped having any asthma  problems and have never had a re occurrence of excema. All of these problems took time to develop and as soon as i eliminated the source of the problem my body healed and the problems went away.

I have no idea if these chemicals are related to the problem discussed, however i can tell you first hand the effects of a long term irritant that cannot be avoided. (because i didnt know in my case) Round up is only a "Mild" Toxin. So if it was only consumed in small quantities with no consistency there likely would be no problems. If the constant irritant of Roundup (or other chemicals are anything like mine, i could see the problem as a "probable" source.

[T Pearce]

Wish it was Parvo the elk had vs hoof rot

[T Pearce]

I think one of the reasons why people are concernted with Roundup  and GMO is that it is close proximity to certain health issues. Roundup was "invented" in the 70's, its pattens ran out in 2000 and its use grew. In 07 the introduction of GMO round up ready plants gave further rise to  Roundups use as well as its generics.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/07/23/why-is-wheat-gluten-disorder-on-the-rise.aspx#!

Obviously there is no proof its just correlation. The rise in auto immune related diseases/symptoms is why this is hard to track down.

I had bad asthma as a kid. In my 20's i developed excema (skin dryness). In my 30's i started developing fatigue right after lunch... I felt like i needed an "old man nap". My mother figured out 5-6 years before i did that she was Gluten intolerant, so at her prompting i gave up wheat and all its related products. It took me a few months but I felt great, lost 2" off my belt (mostly due to not being bloated). after my first 6 months or so  I stopped having any asthma  problems and have never had a re occurrence of excema. All of these problems took time to develop and as soon as i eliminated the source of the problem my body healed and the problems went away.

I have no idea if these chemicals are related to the problem discussed, however i can tell you first hand the effects of a long term irritant that cannot be avoided. (because i didnt know in my case) Round up is only a "Mild" Toxin. So if it was only consumed in small quantities with no consistency there likely would be no problems. If the constant irritant of Roundup (or other chemicals are anything like mine, i could see the problem as a "probable" source.

Sounds good.
But I would have to give up Beer and that could be fatal..... just say'n

[RadSav]

Except every specialist has mentioned it is not related to bovine hoof rot and there are no ag fields in the mud flow.  Not sure why they have not at least tried adding selenium to the feed in the mud flow as you would for bovine and sheep with hoof rot, but the state seems confident it would be senseless since it was not the same strain.

That is correct, but it did not originate in the mudflow . It seems to be spreading rapidly. From what I've gathered reading all these threads the "specialists" don't have a clue where it came from. Every one of them has a different theory and at this point none of them are proven.

True there!

The odd thing down here is we saw almost zero spraying until about 10 years ago.  About six years ago they went absolutely crazy with the spraying!  Ten years ago I had never seen an elk with hoof rot.  Five years ago hoof rot exploded in the region and we started seeing it everywhere.  What changed in that time frame?  Farm land elk had always been there.  Not like they just started coming down into farmer fields.  If looking for triggers I think it would be crazy not to at least take a long hard look and form a study on the spraying.  Not saying that is the cause, but from my vantage point it is the only common denominator and worth more study.  Something WDFW doesn't seem interested in.  Even as you say, "specialists don't have a clue where it came from."

Likely a combination of factors.  Could have originated with some odd strain of bovine, sheep or goat bacteria and the reduced immune system due to spraying allowed it to manifest into something unique.  That is one of the more likely theories I have heard so far.  Neither one being the root cause, but together a recipe for trouble.  Sure hope we can find solid evidence and answers soon before elk hunting in SW Washington is gone for decades!!

[T Pearce]

Except every specialist has mentioned it is not related to bovine hoof rot and there are no ag fields in the mud flow.  Not sure why they have not at least tried adding selenium to the feed in the mud flow as you would for bovine and sheep with hoof rot, but the state seems confident it would be senseless since it was not the same strain.

That is correct, but it did not originate in the mudflow . It seems to be spreading rapidly. From what I've gathered reading all these threads the "specialists" don't have a clue where it came from. Every one of them has a different theory and at this point none of them are proven.

True there!

The odd thing down here is we saw almost zero spraying until about 10 years ago.  About six years ago the went absolutely crazy with the spraying!  Ten years ago I had never seen an elk with hoof rot.  Five years ago hoof rot exploded in the region and we started seeing it everywhere.  What changed in that time frame?  Farm land elk had always been there.  Not like they just started coming down into farmer fields.  If looking for triggers I think it would be crazy not to at least take a long hard look and form a study on the spraying.  Not saying that is the cause, but from my vantage point it is the only common denominator and worth more study.  Something WDFW doesn't seem interested in.  Even as you say, "specialists don't have a clue where it came from."

Likely a combination of factors.  Could have originated with some odd strain of bovine, sheep or goat bacteria and the reduced immune system due to spraying allowed it to manifest into something unique.  That is one of the more likely theories I have heard so far.  Neither one being the root cause, but together a recipe for trouble.  Sure hope we can find solid evidence and answers soon before elk hunting in SW Washington is gone for decades!!

Well written Rad,
Thanks for the realistic look at solving this issue.
Hearing what we do from the so called experts. "knee jerk reaction" from the other side. It's hard for me to not get spun up at times and lable /ignore certain so called experts. It's the junk science thing.
When this post first came up I thought pman was the enemy. His second post caused me to rethink his position.....I hope we can figure this out before the herd is gone.
Maybe american farmers are the bad guys? But let's not have that discussion anywhere near our pantries.
Tom
Having a problem posting this due to my last statement. I will continue to fight for our farmers, cattlemen and washingtons wildlife/game animals.
And yes Runamuk, I believe in miracles

[chester]

The first time I ever saw a bad hoof was in 2004 on an archery bull killed about 400 yards behind a green grass pasture in the willapa hills unit. By 2008 it was common to see a couple In a herd in the farm fields and we even killed a couple Bulls with it. Now I can find entire herds with every cow, yearlings, calves, and raghorn suffering from it. Almost exclusively they are the ones feeding in the fields at night. I've heard reports of a couple running around higher in the ryderwood area . But still fairly close to ag fields. I started hunting further away and can say that the herds further away from hwy 6 show no signs of it.  I haven't seen it get to the north river unit yet. But it seems to be really concentrated near the farm land along the hwy here. I'm not sure about Naselle and the same story on hwy 4. It's just a theory of mine but I'm guessing someone got a bad batch of feed or infected livestock and probably treated the livestock but the elk exposed to it spread with no treatment.  It's all just theoretical tho.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[T Pearce]

When I speak of the "so called experts", I am not referring to anyone on this board.
If they are here I've not noticed them. Nor have I ignored any poster.
And yes I can be a "Negative Nancy"
They say the first step in the healing process is admitting you have a problem.
I hate to say it but it sounds as if the pasture herd needs help in a bad way. I hope we can give that without killing them all.
T

[RadSav]

The first time I ever saw a bad hoof was in 2004 on an archery bull killed about 400 yards behind a green grass pasture in the willapa hills unit. By 2008 it was common to see a couple In a herd in the farm fields and we even killed a couple Bulls with it. Now I can find entire herds with every cow, yearlings, calves, and raghorn suffering from it. Almost exclusively they are the ones feeding in the fields at night. I've heard reports of a couple running around higher in the ryderwood area . But still fairly close to ag fields. I started hunting further away and can say that the herds further away from hwy 6 show no signs of it.  I haven't seen it get to the north river unit yet. But it seems to be really concentrated near the farm land along the hwy here. I'm not sure about Naselle and the same story on hwy 4. It's just a theory of mine but I'm guessing someone got a bad batch of feed or infected livestock and probably treated the livestock but the elk exposed to it spread with no treatment.  It's all just theoretical tho.

Last cow I took off the mainline between Doty and Green Creek was the only cow of eleven that did not show signs of hoof rot.  There were four young bulls in the herd also.  None of which showed any signs.  Used to be a ton of elk in there.  Now you are lucky to cut a track during season...like just about every other SW Washington unit   Four or five years ago timber companies sprayed the living tarnation out of the Fall River unit.  Year before there were still a fair amount of elk and a tone of young buck blacktail.  The last few years I have not seen a branched buck and very few deer in total.  Finding elk during season is a challenge at best. 

Uptick in hunting pressure over the past five years hasn't helped much either.  For about ten years we would hunt it in the late season and have the unit dang near to ourselves.  And some days during the week we could go a whole day and not see another soul!  Those were good times.  Now if you show up five minutes late there are a dozen trucks at the good spots.  A lot has changed!  Hard to point a finger at just one thing.  But until we get solid information I think any and all possibilities should be on the table!

[RadSav]

And yes I can be a "Negative Nancy"

Well call me "Nancy" too!  Hard to stay positive when we are losing 50% a year.  And the elk you are seeing are hurting and struggling.  As a steward of the land it pulls on the heart strings as bad as angering the sportman's fervor.  Anyone who appreciates wildlife should be just sick about how this has played out - hunters and anti's alike!  Was ignored for way too long and then when it grew out of control the purse strings were pulled tight.  One of the largest herds in America GONE in less than ten years.  "Negative Nancy?"  You bet I am!!

[chester]

Between doty and green creek is a big area , but I have a pretty good idea of where you are talking about. I saw a herd there last week, the poor things couldn't even move barely . One legal bull and a bunch of cows. They were moving to the timber behind some fields.
I remember those days you speak of ten years ago in the Fall River unit. I account the loss of deer with a big up swing in predators in the area. More cats and yotes then ever before running around there. You had the late season to your self because all the locals were tagged out lol. But the elk there are starting to feel the hoof rot effects finally. I'm still not seeing it as much or very little up on p and e ridge. Further toward the sort side is getting bad. crappy cell pics but the entire herd couldn't do much more then crawl away. State grounds pretty sure near where the cow you mentioned came from


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RadSav]

Just around the corner from where those pics were taken there was a 5x5 poached before season a couple years ago. Just left there to rot   Last time I saw a good bull in there.

Assuming that is where I think it is!

[T Pearce]

Thanks Chet and Rad,
Sorry to hear this.