Post by: tgomez on July 14, 2015, 03:13:30 PM
Post by: tonymiller7 on July 14, 2015, 03:20:16 PM
Post by: tgomez on July 14, 2015, 03:26:25 PM
Taurus Tracker 44 magnum. Does the high point have a 4" barrel making it legal to use on a bear?No it has 3.5" barrell. Wouldn't shoot a bear with it unless attacked. Key word=SIDEARM. I would only use for protection. I would use my 30-06 for dispatching the animal. Handguns were made for personal protection.
Post by: tonymiller7 on July 14, 2015, 03:37:33 PM
Post by: tgomez on July 14, 2015, 03:46:11 PM
Gotcha, in that case you are correct. I just play it safe so that there is no argument from a hunt/fish cop if I get checked.Yep, i here ya man. But like you said LEGALLY its a sidearm, and I go to Spokane Community College for Criminal Justice currently 1 year away from my degree so the law is right up my alley! :chuckle: I wish I could afford a 44 though, alot more stopping power for sure! :tup:
Post by: wildmanoutdoors on July 14, 2015, 03:48:04 PM
When I bow hunt I carry my Glock 27 or my Super Redhawk Alaskan in 44. Depends on the mood and how far I want to hike that day. But not really for animals of the 4 legged variety.
If your carrying a 9mm for Bear, save the last shot for yourself!
Post by: tgomez on July 14, 2015, 03:53:35 PM
I dont worry about getting attacked by a Black Bear. Are you talking about if your hunting Bear and one trys to attack you after maybe wounding it or just being attacked in general?Pretty sure its better than a rock. Lol
When I bow hunt I carry my Glock 27 or my Super Redhawk Alaskan in 44. Depends on the mood and how far I want to hike that day. But not really for animals of the 4 legged variety.
If your carrying a 9mm for Bear, save the last shot for yourself!
Post by: superdown on July 14, 2015, 04:18:36 PM
I dont worry about getting attacked by a Black Bear. Are you talking about if your hunting Bear and one trys to attack you after maybe wounding it or just being attacked in general?:yeah: my dad gut shot a small deer with his rifle. :bash: (got 40lbs of meat off of it)he used a a cz75 9mm for a coup shot with winchester 147grn hollow points and the rounds stopped on the neck and did not break any bone at all. the bullets failed both of them.He left his rifle with me up on the ridge i couldn't see the deer or him he finally just cut it's throat after the deer finally fell over . He got buck fever and hadn't shot a deer in years certainly not a proud moment.I can tell you niether one of us carries a 9mm in the woods anymore. :yike:
When I bow hunt I carry my Glock 27 or my Super Redhawk Alaskan in 44. Depends on the mood and how far I want to hike that day. But not really for animals of the 4 legged variety.
If your carrying a 9mm for Bear, save the last shot for yourself!
Post by: CAMPMEAT on July 14, 2015, 04:30:09 PM
Post by: MADMAX on July 14, 2015, 04:39:00 PM
41 mag Ruger
Post by: Bofire on July 14, 2015, 05:09:54 PM
that said I have killed bear at lots of ranges with lots of guns. I have seen bear shot numerous times with good cartridges, and wounded. it is all, ALL, where then bullet hits.
Carl
Post by: jburkett on July 14, 2015, 05:22:26 PM
Post by: tgomez on July 14, 2015, 05:52:47 PM
I have seen a wounded Black bear killed with a 9mm at about 3 feet. I have seen a wounded black bear killed at about 3 feet with a 357. I have seen a black bear shot with a 44 mag 240 grain bullet, soft point Winchester. already wounded, the bullets penetrated about 3 inches. did not kill it.Im with you 100% my friend, BULLET PLACEMENT.
that said I have killed bear at lots of ranges with lots of guns. I have seen bear shot numerous times with good cartridges, and wounded. it is all, ALL, where then bullet hits.
Carl
Post by: full strutting on July 14, 2015, 06:09:34 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: CAMPMEAT on July 14, 2015, 06:16:35 PM
Post by: 257wbymagkiller on July 14, 2015, 06:47:29 PM
Post by: fastdam on July 14, 2015, 06:55:50 PM
bigger, is better.
More shot is better than less.
I carry a Ruger SuperBlack 44 mag. When I go to the woods and fields. I love having a legit reason to carry it. The 45, and 9 are better for people.
Post by: superdown on July 14, 2015, 07:05:56 PM
Post by: jdb on July 14, 2015, 07:13:40 PM
Post by: kukusya on July 14, 2015, 07:19:50 PM
Plus 9 leaves small hole in grouse so your meat not waisted.
Post by: superdown on July 14, 2015, 07:20:45 PM
Post by: fastdam on July 14, 2015, 08:32:06 PM
I carry a Ruger single six in .22 long rifle. But then again Iam a total bada$$
Probably pretty handy for grouse
Post by: Wazukie on July 14, 2015, 08:50:56 PM
I carry a Ruger single six in .22 long rifle. But then again Iam a total bada$$
Probably pretty handy for grouse
my sidearm that goes with me in the woods is my Taurus tracker .357 loaded with 158grn Kieth SWC moving out the barrel as fast as I can push it. Now worries about bears, but if I had to I have no doubt that it would do the job as long as I did.
Post by: WapitiTalk1 on July 14, 2015, 09:08:21 PM
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=fred+eichler+bear+attack&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=533117F97A1526F70DEE533117F97A1526F70DEE
Post by: huntnnw on July 14, 2015, 09:20:04 PM
WHAT DO YOU CARRY FOR A SIDEARM FOR BLACK BEAR? I carry a Hi-Point 9mm C9 with 2 extra magazines just incase. Its never jammed or failed to fire. Cheap/accurate/dependable, a good back-up/truck gun. What's ur poison???
If you watched what I witnessed with a 9mm you might reconsider..18 rds and not one woulda killed that bear..we could actually see bullets in the chest that were stopped by ribs and hide..bear looked as a bee stung it
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 14, 2015, 09:23:10 PM
A buddy of mine shot a black bear three times with a .308 and nothing penetrated the shoulder/ribs. Used some varmint bullets by accident because he didn't read the box.WHAT DO YOU CARRY FOR A SIDEARM FOR BLACK BEAR? I carry a Hi-Point 9mm C9 with 2 extra magazines just incase. Its never jammed or failed to fire. Cheap/accurate/dependable, a good back-up/truck gun. What's ur poison???
If you watched what I witnessed with a 9mm you might reconsider..18 rds and not one woulda killed that bear..we could actually see bullets in the chest that were stopped by ribs and hide..bear looked as a bee stung it
Post by: jasnt on July 14, 2015, 10:05:35 PM
Killed the cougar in my avatar pic with the 44 from about 10ft away
Post by: MountainWalk on July 14, 2015, 10:18:22 PM
!
Ironically, I killed last years boar with a pistol. On a five day hunt hunt, wouldn't you just know it, I left my detachable magazine at home. Basically I was hunting with a bolt action single shot. My brother in law loaned me a 41mag, which I used to totally ruin a book head. Glad I had it then. But it shouldn't of happened, really. Followed him up immediately after the shot. Fired in self defense at 8-10ft.
Even at that close range with such a cannon, I'd of felt much better with my rifle.
Post by: pashok23 on July 15, 2015, 08:39:56 AM
Post by: WapitiTalk1 on July 15, 2015, 08:42:00 AM
S&W 629 6.5 inch barrel .44 mag
Nice piece :tup:
Post by: tjthebest on July 15, 2015, 08:53:43 AM
Post by: Okanagan on July 15, 2015, 08:57:46 AM
Did anyone had any problems with bears? Bear don't want to mess with you, they give you fair warning before they may charge. ...
FWIW, black bear research shows that black bears do sneak attacks on humans as prey and in such cases always eat the victim. There will be no warning in such cases. That's different from an attack when the bear is wounded or crowded. I have been threatened by several bears, both black and grizzly, and two cougars (that I know about :) ). I am more concerned about a black bear sneaking around near me than I am about a cougar in the same situation and wolf attacks are even more rare. Black bears sneak up on people to eat them. Cougars are usually merely curious, though I don't trust his intentions when one is close.
Post by: rtspring on July 15, 2015, 09:00:15 AM
No follow up shot needed. :chuckle:
Post by: jrebel on July 15, 2015, 10:25:47 AM
Post by: tgomez on July 15, 2015, 10:40:12 AM
500 SW with 550 grain killers... Best bear medicine money can buy..Sounds like a hand cannon!!!! BOOM, off with his head!!!
No follow up shot needed. :chuckle:
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on July 15, 2015, 10:47:39 AM
If it's mostly about shot placement why don't you guy's carry 22lr handguns or even a pellet handgun. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: (insert sarcasm) :rolleyes: I have shot a fair number of animals and unless your using some kind of specialty ammo the standard auto cartridges are just plain anemic there are way better choices.I carry a gun even though a stun gun or mace would probably work for humans. :hello:Just food for thought, I have killed around 200 big game animals with a Ruger semiauto pistol and .22lr premium ammo. Never under duress myself, usually at a few feet to a few yards, out to 60 yards. Injured or depredating animals. The toughest being a 300+ lb black bear boar in a culvert trap. On several occasions with quartering away shots, I've had the bullet break ribs on both sides then break the offside shoulder blade and exit. Certainly not ideal for any large animal purpose, I would not however dismiss the lethality of premium hypervelocity .22lr ammunition at close range - even more so at rifle velocities. An accurate and carefully placed top-end .22lr bullet can cause incredible damage.
Post by: theleo on July 15, 2015, 10:58:33 AM
Post by: superdown on July 15, 2015, 11:04:53 AM
I have seen many cattle and pigs dispatched with 22lr at my family's ranch and my great uncles used to shoot black bear in the ear and eye with 22lr rifles off their deck many years before i was around.The point that a poor choice of side arm / cartridge will work has been established.I personally choose to carry something more appropriate IMO for the encounter rather than 15-45 rounds of something under powered.If a person were being attacked by a bear i highly doubt they would have the wherewithal to actually reload their weapon so it turns out to be more pointless weight.I want as much power as i can ACCURATELY shoot on my hip. :twocents:If it's mostly about shot placement why don't you guy's carry 22lr handguns or even a pellet handgun. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: (insert sarcasm) :rolleyes: I have shot a fair number of animals and unless your using some kind of specialty ammo the standard auto cartridges are just plain anemic there are way better choices.I carry a gun even though a stun gun or mace would probably work for humans. :hello:Just food for thought, I have killed around 200 big game animals with a Ruger semiauto pistol and .22lr premium ammo. Never under duress myself, usually at a few feet to a few yards, out to 60 yards. Injured or depredating animals. The toughest being a 300+ lb black bear boar in a culvert trap. On several occasions with quartering away shots, I've had the bullet break ribs on both sides then break the offside shoulder blade and exit. Certainly not ideal for any large animal purpose, I would not however dismiss the lethality of premium hypervelocity .22lr ammunition at close range - even more so at rifle velocities. An accurate and carefully placed top-end .22lr bullet can cause incredible damage.
Post by: wildmanoutdoors on July 15, 2015, 11:06:09 AM
I dont worry about getting attacked by a Black Bear. Are you talking about if your hunting Bear and one trys to attack you after maybe wounding it or just being attacked in general?Pretty sure its better than a rock. Lol
When I bow hunt I carry my Glock 27 or my Super Redhawk Alaskan in 44. Depends on the mood and how far I want to hike that day. But not really for animals of the 4 legged variety.
If your carrying a 9mm for Bear, save the last shot for yourself!
So is a spear or machete. Lol
Post by: Machias on July 15, 2015, 11:36:38 AM
Post by: Stein on July 15, 2015, 11:54:45 AM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on July 15, 2015, 12:04:10 PM
Totally agree. On the rare occasions where bears have been a primary concern, I have carried a short-barreled 12 gauge on a safari slingI have seen many cattle and pigs dispatched with 22lr at my family's ranch and my great uncles used to shoot black bear in the ear and eye with 22lr rifles off their deck many years before i was around.The point that a poor choice of side arm / cartridge will work has been established.I personally choose to carry something more appropriate IMO for the encounter rather than 15-45 rounds of something under powered.If a person were being attacked by a bear i highly doubt they would have the wherewithal to actually reload their weapon so it turns out to be more pointless weight.I want as much power as i can ACCURATELY shoot on my hip. :twocents:If it's mostly about shot placement why don't you guy's carry 22lr handguns or even a pellet handgun. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: (insert sarcasm) :rolleyes: I have shot a fair number of animals and unless your using some kind of specialty ammo the standard auto cartridges are just plain anemic there are way better choices.I carry a gun even though a stun gun or mace would probably work for humans. :hello:Just food for thought, I have killed around 200 big game animals with a Ruger semiauto pistol and .22lr premium ammo. Never under duress myself, usually at a few feet to a few yards, out to 60 yards. Injured or depredating animals. The toughest being a 300+ lb black bear boar in a culvert trap. On several occasions with quartering away shots, I've had the bullet break ribs on both sides then break the offside shoulder blade and exit. Certainly not ideal for any large animal purpose, I would not however dismiss the lethality of premium hypervelocity .22lr ammunition at close range - even more so at rifle velocities. An accurate and carefully placed top-end .22lr bullet can cause incredible damage.
Post by: Reidus on July 15, 2015, 03:59:57 PM
Post by: Okanagan on July 15, 2015, 06:10:01 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
Thanks for posting the chart on bear fatalities. Useful info.
Post by: bowtechian on July 15, 2015, 06:19:12 PM
S&W 629 6.5 inch barrel .44 magI carry the same, grew up in grizz country
Post by: Bob33 on July 15, 2015, 06:33:35 PM
Post by: The scout on July 15, 2015, 06:38:12 PM
Post by: pashok23 on July 15, 2015, 10:18:54 PM
I do hunt alot in NW Montana with a healthy grizzly population.How heavy is your bullet for bear on your .44?S&W 629 6.5 inch barrel .44 magI carry the same, grew up in grizz country
Post by: WapitiTalk1 on July 15, 2015, 10:28:06 PM
Post by: pashok23 on July 15, 2015, 11:30:06 PM
For me it's the HSM 305 GR Bear Load.Same here.Made in Montana
Post by: buglebrush on July 15, 2015, 11:32:15 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
Note the amount that were field dressing animals. That activity comprises a miniscule percentage of time in the woods yet accounts for several attacks. Keep your sidearm strapped on :)
Post by: bowtechian on July 16, 2015, 12:04:11 AM
Post by: NW-GSP on July 16, 2015, 12:27:03 AM
Post by: RadSav on July 16, 2015, 01:14:05 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
I look at those numbers and can't help but think, "Man! I should sell my pistols and buy lottery tickets with the profits. It would make more sense to worry about how I'm going to spend my winnings than to worry about being killed by a bear." ;) ;)
Never been much worried about bear. But two legged creatures make me nervous.
Post by: huntingaddiction on July 16, 2015, 06:26:34 AM
Post by: tgomez on July 16, 2015, 06:39:11 AM
Post by: NW-GSP on July 16, 2015, 06:49:46 AM
Great idea not to worry about being attacked by a bear while bear hunting, so I guess some of you think you can wrestle the damn thing when you couldn't even rip a wet paper bag. Maybe it's time to sprinkle some miracle grow on your brains. Who the hell taught you guys how to hunt. Oh must be the same guys who dont get out of the truck or off their 4 wheeler. Me, im gonna stay with a sidearm. No one ever said they were "afraid" of a bear, but some of us are smart enough to know you arnt winning that battle unarmed. If a Black Bear attacks you its going to KILL YOU, simple as that. Now I don't know about ya'all, but I usually hunt by myself so not bringing a sidearm seems pretty moronic if you ask me. Last time I checked Bear are powerful with teeth and claws. We are limited to our weapon and brain power. ALWAYS KEEP A SIDEARM IN BEAR CONTRY, GOD BLESS, STAY SAFE.
Take a look at the odds of you having a issue with a black bear vs the odds of having to deal with a crack head in the woods. Also most black bears are more afraid of you then you are of them unless its a sow with cubs.
When I'm in the woods I realise that my biggest threat is other people not the animals.
Post by: tgomez on July 16, 2015, 06:50:47 AM
I carry a Glock 22 .40 s&w. Not bashing but have a hi point .380 and I would never carry it as a side arm. I love plinking with it though. I need something i can drop in the mud pull it out and shoot. The glock can do that. Maybe i am harder on guns:'(Make sure you get that fireing pin changed in the glock, they are known to fly out the rear of the slide while being fired. My firearms insructor recommended to many in my class who own that firearm, (he had pin fly out and go through nose into eye orbital). I believe it's around $35.00 for the upgrade. Wish I could afford a glock, for now my Hi-Point does me better than nothing, and I would trust my life to it. If you keep them cleaned and lubricated than they function just fine.
Post by: huntingaddiction on July 16, 2015, 06:52:33 AM
Post by: tgomez on July 16, 2015, 06:59:47 AM
IT ONLY TAKES ONCE!! Ive been hunting my whole life, im well aware of the dangers of bear hunting. I fear NO MAN, but GOD! And the post ask you to tell me your sidearm choice, not to bash mine or tell people not to carry them. If you dont carry one than just don't post and move on to another topic. WTF is with some of you people? "IF I ONLY HAD A BRAIN!" Get it a break already.Great idea not to worry about being attacked by a bear while bear hunting, so I guess some of you think you can wrestle the damn thing when you couldn't even rip a wet paper bag. Maybe it's time to sprinkle some miracle grow on your brains. Who the hell taught you guys how to hunt. Oh must be the same guys who dont get out of the truck or off their 4 wheeler. Me, im gonna stay with a sidearm. No one ever said they were "afraid" of a bear, but some of us are smart enough to know you arnt winning that battle unarmed. If a Black Bear attacks you its going to KILL YOU, simple as that. Now I don't know about ya'all, but I usually hunt by myself so not bringing a sidearm seems pretty moronic if you ask me. Last time I checked Bear are powerful with teeth and claws. We are limited to our weapon and brain power. ALWAYS KEEP A SIDEARM IN BEAR CONTRY, GOD BLESS, STAY SAFE.
Take a look at the odds of you having a issue with a black bear vs the odds of having to deal with a crack head in the woods. Also most black beads are more afraid of you then you are of them unless its a sow with cubs.
When I'm in the woods I realise that my biggest threat is other people not the animals.
Post by: tgomez on July 16, 2015, 07:02:17 AM
Firing pin is upgraded...so is the trigger and spring!Nice! Just a friendly heads up. Glock is a fantastic choice, just hate to see ya go blind for enjoying it. Best of luck 2 you.
Post by: huntingaddiction on July 16, 2015, 07:03:11 AM
Post by: NW-GSP on July 16, 2015, 07:05:13 AM
Your the one criticizing people. I have only stated facts, I guess I'm just not that afraid of bears due to the number of people killed by bears being really low.
When was the last time someone was killed by a bear in WA?. How many people are killed in the woods by people every year?.
Post by: tgomez on July 16, 2015, 07:12:27 AM
Post by: Okanagan on July 16, 2015, 07:24:54 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
Note the amount that were field dressing animals. That activity comprises a miniscule percentage of time in the woods yet accounts for several attacks. Keep your sidearm strapped on :)
Have personal experience with one black bear and another time a grizzly approaching me while I gutted a buck. The black bear paced about 40 feet away and jumped on the gut pile by the time we had dragged the buck that far from it. The grizz circled out of sight but I heard him several times. I saw his tracks in snow nearby as I left. I'd forgotten something at the kill site so went back the next day and the grizzly had covered the boned out deer remains in a pile of grass and sticks. I tiptoed away as fast as I could...
Re danger from bears: I think it was writer Ben East who opined that one black bear in 50 is dangerous to man. Problem is you don't know if you are on number 1 or number 50...
Post by: jasnt on July 16, 2015, 07:25:33 AM
Post by: tgomez on July 16, 2015, 07:47:44 AM
Statistics may show the chances are slim but I'd rather be packing and never need it than become a statistic. :tup: I have had encounters with bear and cougar. IMO the moose are the worst!!!!Lol, true that. The moose get REAL mean and nasty!
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 16, 2015, 08:00:43 AM
Fwiw I carry a xd 45 in the woods and a kimber ultra in town.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 16, 2015, 09:36:12 AM
There was a study done a couple years ago in Montana on grizzly movements. They tracked grizz via radio collars and found that bears were stalking humans keeping under 300 yds a whole lot more than they expected. They especially like to follow hunters.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
Note the amount that were field dressing animals. That activity comprises a miniscule percentage of time in the woods yet accounts for several attacks. Keep your sidearm strapped on :)
In Alaska, a few of the guys I talked to said they try not to shoot more than once on a deer. That the Kodiak brown bears run towards gun shots expecting to steal deer from hunters. Said they also try not to shoot later in the day so they aren't packing at night and field dress pretty fast.
Post by: Firedogg on July 16, 2015, 01:03:30 PM
Post by: Torrent50 on July 16, 2015, 01:51:27 PM
I carry a Glock 22 .40 s&w. Not bashing but have a hi point .380 and I would never carry it as a side arm. I love plinking with it though. I need something i can drop in the mud pull it out and shoot. The glock can do that. Maybe i am harder on guns:'(Make sure you get that fireing pin changed in the glock, they are known to fly out the rear of the slide while being fired. My firearms insructor recommended to many in my class who own that firearm, (he had pin fly out and go through nose into eye orbital). I believe it's around $35.00 for the upgrade. Wish I could afford a glock, for now my Hi-Point does me better than nothing, and I would trust my life to it. If you keep them cleaned and lubricated than they function just fine.
Odd. I carry a Glock 29 in the woods and have been shooting and instructing with Glocks for between 15 and 20 years. I have also been to several armorers courses for them and I have NEVER seen that happen or heard of that happening.
Post by: headshot5 on July 16, 2015, 01:55:00 PM
Quote
Odd. I carry a Glock 29 in the woods and have been shooting and instructing with Glocks for between 15 and 20 years. I have also been to several armorers courses for them and I have NEVER seen that happen or heard of that happening.
This is the internet. Anything is possible. :chuckle:
Post by: NW-GSP on July 16, 2015, 02:17:13 PM
QuoteOdd. I carry a Glock 29 in the woods and have been shooting and instructing with Glocks for between 15 and 20 years. I have also been to several armorers courses for them and I have NEVER seen that happen or heard of that happening.
This is the internet. Anything is possible. :chuckle:
The guy that carries a hi-point is a firearms expert :chuckle:
Post by: tgomez on July 16, 2015, 02:46:58 PM
I carry a Glock 22 .40 s&w. Not bashing but have a hi point .380 and I would never carry it as a side arm. I love plinking with it though. I need something i can drop in the mud pull it out and shoot. The glock can do that. Maybe i am harder on guns:'(Make sure you get that fireing pin changed in the glock, they are known to fly out the rear of the slide while being fired. My firearms insructor recommended to many in my class who own that firearm, (he had pin fly out and go through nose into eye orbital). I believe it's around $35.00 for the upgrade. Wish I could afford a glock, for now my Hi-Point does me better than nothing, and I would trust my life to it. If you keep them cleaned and lubricated than they function just fine.
Odd. I carry a Glock 29 in the woods and have been shooting and instructing with Glocks for between 15 and 20 years. I have also been to several armorers courses for them and I have NEVER seen that happen or heard of that happening.
Well, that's the first thing that my instructor Garry Johns told or class about Glocks. 15-20 years more experience than I have, but Garry John's is a retired police officer of 30 years, shoots competition still to this day, and has more than 40 years of experience with handguns/pistols.He also had a fireing pin from a GLOCK go through his nose into his eye orbital. Ill ask him in next Mondays class about which type of replacement he recommends for the Glock. And if you were implying that that was a lie, I can ensure you that Garry wouldn't lie, he is a man of 100% INTEGRITY.
Post by: tgomez on July 16, 2015, 02:52:25 PM
Ya, your sure right because I claimed to be an expert. I carry a high point because that's what I can afford plain and simple. Your entitled to your opnion, im just glad you think im so good. Thank you!! :tup:QuoteOdd. I carry a Glock 29 in the woods and have been shooting and instructing with Glocks for between 15 and 20 years. I have also been to several armorers courses for them and I have NEVER seen that happen or heard of that happening.
This is the internet. Anything is possible. :chuckle:
The guy that carries a hi-point is a firearms expert :chuckle:
Post by: RadSav on July 16, 2015, 04:33:09 PM
In Canada we've actually tried to initiate a charge from black bear boars. I've always wanted to shoot a bear inside 10 yards on a charge as if elephant hunting. Of the dozen or so bear we have been able to encourage to charge not one of them would commit to coming closer than ten yards. Many came back time after time, but each chickened out before reaching the shoot zone. Has been exciting, but nothing that would make a guy wet himself.
One case in Canada we had a sow with twin cubs use us as a shield for a boar intent on having cub sandwiches for lunch. The sow was as close as 5 yards behind us as we faced off with the boar. He charged more than 15 times! Had he been a different color I would likely have killed him on a few of those charges in to about 12 yards as I had only a bow that day (friend/guide had 308 Win). But not being the color I was after we stood our ground until he gave up and moved on. That sow was pretty darn smart. Though I'm sure she was not happy we didn't kill that bad boy. One of my favorite hunts ever, but still no real danger presented itself.
I was attacked by a bear a few years ago. He put all 15-20 pounds of his might into my boot as I tried to kick him away. I think he even left a bruise on my ankle :chuckle: :chuckle:
Most guys that get all worked up and spout off about how you must have a sidearm to protect yourself when bear hunting can be written off as not having much experience with bear. We do have a couple members here that have had encounters that seem legitimate and too close not to react. So it can happen for sure. I'm just not going to work myself into a panic if I don't have a gun at my side while in bear country or even while bear hunting. I do make sure I fasten my seatbelt on the drive up there, though ;)
When I do carry it's usually a 45 or a 10mm. The .444 Trapper was even better. Wish I still had that gun!
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 16, 2015, 04:52:57 PM
Post by: fastdam on July 16, 2015, 05:19:41 PM
I once had to track a bear I shot in the Blue Mountains on a spring hunt. I figured I had a rifle so I left the 44 in the truck. The bear dissapeared in a network of tunnels in thick creek bottom brush. The tunnels were only about 4 feet high and I quickly realized my rifpe was amlost useless because it was so unwieldy in the tight tunnels and made it hard to crawl. For an hour of following the bloodtrail alone I could not stop thinking how I wished I had brought my revolver. There is no reason not to carry one. If you became separated from your rifle, your sidearm may save your life. Its also much lighter and allows you to use your hands to navigate thick or steep terrain. You dont carry a sidearm for all the easy hunts, the safe and easy situations. You carry it so you are prepared for any situation. I carry mine when bear hunting. I also carry it when fishing, hiking....or any time I am alone and solely responsible for my own and my families security.
Post by: RadSav on July 16, 2015, 05:33:32 PM
Post by: tgomez on July 16, 2015, 06:22:41 PM
Post by: JJB11B on July 16, 2015, 06:25:26 PM
Post by: 300winmag on July 16, 2015, 06:35:29 PM
Post by: RadSav on July 16, 2015, 07:33:44 PM
Since 1997 Washington state has averaged 10 weapon related hunting accidents per year. Average of three per year is from self inflicted wounds. This is down dramatically from the height of the states hunting weapon related accidents which averaged more than 50 per year in the 60's. No details I can find as to what the self inflicted numbers back then were.
In the past 100 years there have been seven reported black bear mauling's in Washington State. One single fatality - a four year old playing at home in 1974.
So roughly you are 3X more likely to shoot yourself in Washington than be mauled by a bear. And you are almost 8X more likely to be shot by someone else while hunting in Washington than being mauled by a bear.
Does anyone know where I can get a camouflaged flak jacket? :chuckle:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 16, 2015, 07:41:09 PM
Post by: Ridgeratt on July 16, 2015, 07:43:35 PM
The accidents are down since the 60's because all the crazy people moved to archery. :peep:
But now they feel inadequate and are arming themselves.
Post by: 300winmag on July 16, 2015, 07:46:27 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 16, 2015, 08:09:31 PM
I was just joking. I think the main thing more than any other that calmed down the woods on the westside was going to 3 pt. I have heard true horror stories about when spikes were allowed and ten different camps were following the same herd of elk....people in the crossfire.The accidents are down since the 60's because all the crazy people moved to archery. :peep:
But now they feel inadequate and are arming themselves.
Post by: Bob33 on July 16, 2015, 08:30:24 PM
Interesting fun facts:The list of deadly risks greater than being attacked by a black bear is pretty lengthy. The biggest risk factors for most Americans are diet and (lack of) exercise.
Since 1997 Washington state has averaged 10 weapon related hunting accidents per year. Average of three per year is from self inflicted wounds. This is down dramatically from the height of the states hunting weapon related accidents which averaged more than 50 per year in the 60's. No details I can find as to what the self inflicted numbers back then were.
In the past 100 years there have been seven reported black bear mauling's in Washington State. One single fatality - a four year old playing at home in 1974.
So roughly you are 3X more likely to shoot yourself in Washington than be mauled by a bear. And you are almost 8X more likely to be shot by someone else while hunting in Washington than being mauled by a bear.
Does anyone know where I can get a camouflaged flak jacket? :chuckle:
Post by: Fl0und3rz on July 16, 2015, 08:34:29 PM
Post by: NW-GSP on July 16, 2015, 08:40:31 PM
actualy if im in after a downed bear that im not sure about it will always be 12 GAUGE WITH 00 BUCK FOLLOWED BY A SLUG
I agree with you
Post by: JJB11B on July 16, 2015, 08:43:48 PM
Interesting fun facts:Ive got a couple, and a matching helmet....
Since 1997 Washington state has averaged 10 weapon related hunting accidents per year. Average of three per year is from self inflicted wounds. This is down dramatically from the height of the states hunting weapon related accidents which averaged more than 50 per year in the 60's. No details I can find as to what the self inflicted numbers back then were.
In the past 100 years there have been seven reported black bear mauling's in Washington State. One single fatality - a four year old playing at home in 1974.
So roughly you are 3X more likely to shoot yourself in Washington than be mauled by a bear. And you are almost 8X more likely to be shot by someone else while hunting in Washington than being mauled by a bear.
Does anyone know where I can get a camouflaged flak jacket? :chuckle:
Post by: MountainWalk on July 16, 2015, 08:46:23 PM
I've killed 12 bears, even had a close call or two, but never anything to whine about. Rad Sav's post earlier this afternoon sums it up, pretty much. There's nothing I can do better with any sort of pistol, than I can do with my peep sighted rifle. Wonder how many Kodiak and Afognak. And Raspberry island bear guides pack pistols in thick brush as opposed to a rifle. Brush grows thick up there I hear......
Post by: Torrent50 on July 16, 2015, 09:42:09 PM
I carry a Glock 22 .40 s&w. Not bashing but have a hi point .380 and I would never carry it as a side arm. I love plinking with it though. I need something i can drop in the mud pull it out and shoot. The glock can do that. Maybe i am harder on guns:'(Make sure you get that fireing pin changed in the glock, they are known to fly out the rear of the slide while being fired. My firearms insructor recommended to many in my class who own that firearm, (he had pin fly out and go through nose into eye orbital). I believe it's around $35.00 for the upgrade. Wish I could afford a glock, for now my Hi-Point does me better than nothing, and I would trust my life to it. If you keep them cleaned and lubricated than they function just fine.
Odd. I carry a Glock 29 in the woods and have been shooting and instructing with Glocks for between 15 and 20 years. I have also been to several armorers courses for them and I have NEVER seen that happen or heard of that happening.
Well, that's the first thing that my instructor Garry Johns told or class about Glocks. 15-20 years more experience than I have, but Garry John's is a retired police officer of 30 years, shoots competition still to this day, and has more than 40 years of experience with handguns/pistols.He also had a fireing pin from a GLOCK go through his nose into his eye orbital. Ill ask him in next Mondays class about which type of replacement he recommends for the Glock. And if you were implying that that was a lie, I can ensure you that Garry wouldn't lie, he is a man of 100% INTEGRITY.
Touchy, touchy, touchy. Who said anything about it being a lie. I simply stated that I have extensive experience with Glocks and have spoken to others who have even more and are advanced level Glock armorers and have never heard of that. To say they are known to fly out the back of the slide is a bit of a stretch. The only way that could happen is if the plate on the rear of the slide failed or was installed improperly. I have also never heard of one of them failing, not to say that it couldn't happen. I would be very interested in talking to or corresponding with him about his experience as I am still in that field of work and carry a Glock every day. If you have an email address for him and would be willing to PM that to me I can reach out to him and find out the details.
Post by: fisheral87 on July 16, 2015, 10:35:18 PM
Post by: RadSav on July 16, 2015, 11:19:20 PM
The accidents are down since the 60's because all the crazy people moved to archery. :peep:
:chuckle: :chuckle: Funny
Maybe it's because all the crazy rules and regulations there are 75% fewer hunters in the woods :dunno:
I know there are fewer young hunters in the woods these days. Somewhere in the WDFW archives they have a graph of accidents by age. I remember that being pretty high for 10-20 year olds. Not sure if that graph was only Washington hunters or nation wide. Probably much the same either way.
I carry an Sp101 3 inch .357 mag, mostly cuz it makes me look cool. 8)
Didn't they make a 6 round model recently? I've only ever shot the 5 round and never at an animal.
As a guy with small hands I always liked the SP101.
Post by: tgomez on July 17, 2015, 12:44:28 AM
Post by: mountainman on July 17, 2015, 07:23:32 AM
Post by: tonymiller7 on July 17, 2015, 08:33:34 AM
I think im going to wrestle one since there is nothing to worry about. Do you think a Rock bottom or people's elbow will do? Ask someone who has been mauled by a bear if there is NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT! SIDEARMS SAVE LIVES. Look I've never had an bad encounter with a bear either guys/gals, but I know we all have family that depends on us returning safe and sound. My recommendation is to bring and pack your sidearm.I guarantee a bear would kick out of a Rock Bottom or People's Elbow, however the Stone Cold Stunner would put them down for good! :tup: :chuckle:
Post by: tgomez on July 17, 2015, 08:36:59 AM
Ahh there it is, the good ol Stone Cold Stunner! :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:I think im going to wrestle one since there is nothing to worry about. Do you think a Rock bottom or people's elbow will do? Ask someone who has been mauled by a bear if there is NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT! SIDEARMS SAVE LIVES. Look I've never had an bad encounter with a bear either guys/gals, but I know we all have family that depends on us returning safe and sound. My recommendation is to bring and pack your sidearm.I guarantee a bear would kick out of a Rock Bottom or People's Elbow, however the Stone Cold Stunner would put them down for good! :tup: :chuckle:
Post by: fisheral87 on July 17, 2015, 08:42:27 AM
There, I said it.
Post by: fisheral87 on July 17, 2015, 08:43:07 AM
Quote
Didn't they make a 6 round model recently? I've only ever shot the 5 round and never at an animal. As a guy with small hands I always liked the SP101.
For its size and the advantage of the .357, it's a great backup gun. The higher power rounds are manageable with the $20 hogue rubber grips. I don't have large hands either. I have had a Smith .460 and .500, they never fit my hand and at that point I'd rather have the shotty with slugs.
I have not seen the sp101 in a .357, 6 cylinder config. They do make a 6 shooter, GP100 3" with Talo Custom modifications that is pretty sweet, but twice the cost of a stock sp101. I anticipate being lucky to get of one maybe two shots in a self defense situation. After that you'll be close enough to put it right in the Bears ribs, if you're lucky.
Knew a guide in AK that had a .41 Mag I believe, nice little piece.
Al
Post by: magnumb on July 17, 2015, 10:35:14 AM
I have seen a wounded Black bear killed with a 9mm at about 3 feet. I have seen a wounded black bear killed at about 3 feet with a 357. I have seen a black bear shot with a 44 mag 240 grain bullet, soft point Winchester. already wounded, the bullets penetrated about 3 inches. did not kill it.Im with you 100% my friend, BULLET PLACEMENT.
that said I have killed bear at lots of ranges with lots of guns. I have seen bear shot numerous times with good cartridges, and wounded. it is all, ALL, where then bullet hits.
Carl
Bullet placement is paramount to realizing a responsible and efficient dispatch.....of any animal. But as important as bullet placement is, it does not stand alone as the only factor in that regard. If that were true, most would carry .22's for the task the OP is inquiring about.
All opinions are as valid as one wants to believe they are........mine being no different. Given that.......a .9mm would be generally considered better than a rock, but that doesn't make it a prudent nor safe choice. A full power .357, 10mm., .41 through .44mag. on up is certainly better.
Good placement with any of these is no less important, but there is obviously a bit more wiggle room when these cartridges are employed. Sometimes when we believe that what options we've decided to place are trust in are 'sufficient' for the job or possibilities that we may face, we take chances that we might not otherwise take. And oftentimes these choices are based on financial, 'gut', economic priorities and other reasons beyond our immediate control and we have to necessarily make due with what we have, ie, "better than a rock".
My 4" 629 is handloaded with 300gr. Beartooth bullets that plain destroy things.....big, thick, hard things. And when I place them exactly where I want to or even very close to where I intend, there is mass destruction and no thought of it being just a step or two higher on the "better than a rock" scale.
Confidence, especially in traumatic and quickly evolving situations, allows for more calmness in all situations. In a scenario involving employing a firearm in a protection situation, calmness would also allow for better shot placement. If there is even the slightest doubt that your chosen cartridge will not stop what is now 100% dedicated to trying to maul, murder or kill you, your confidence level in the firearm and cartridge you've just employed better also be at a full 100%......or better. If not, as stated earlier, your confidence/calmness level will be compromised, your shot placement compromised and your full attention to the object of your terror will be compromised because you are already thinking about other options that you must now consider to survive this confrontation.
Having a ballistically proven, well documented 'stopper' cartridge and reliable firearm on your person, one that you've become very proficient with, can help to eliminate all of those compromises. Bullet placement is therefore no more or less important than several other major factors that all need to be in place in order to survive that which itends to do us harm.
Sooo......I would suggest that anytime one feels it necessary to respond to a ballistics related comment with, "well, it's better than a rock", he or she already knows that they are 'undergunned' in regards to the question asked......IMHO.
Good luck...........
Post by: tgomez on July 17, 2015, 11:01:02 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 17, 2015, 11:10:53 AM
Don't feel under armed at all. I'll be carrying a .30-06 and a 9mm, ill be just fine! And like I said, BETTER THAN A ROCK! Seen a man kill a bear with a .243 at 250 yards one shot kill! It is truly ALL about bullet placement. You don't need BIG MAGNUM calibers to get the job done, you just need a well placed shot or two. For you to tell me how I feel about my firearms is just asinine of you my friend!I read your posts and just think "wow..."
Post by: MountainWalk on July 17, 2015, 11:11:50 AM
Post by: superdown on July 17, 2015, 11:14:00 AM
Very well stated :yeah:I have seen a wounded Black bear killed with a 9mm at about 3 feet. I have seen a wounded black bear killed at about 3 feet with a 357. I have seen a black bear shot with a 44 mag 240 grain bullet, soft point Winchester. already wounded, the bullets penetrated about 3 inches. did not kill it.Im with you 100% my friend, BULLET PLACEMENT.
that said I have killed bear at lots of ranges with lots of guns. I have seen bear shot numerous times with good cartridges, and wounded. it is all, ALL, where then bullet hits.
Carl
Bullet placement is paramount to realizing a responsible and efficient dispatch.....of any animal. But as important as bullet placement is, it does not stand alone as the only factor in that regard. If that were true, most would carry .22's for the task the OP is inquiring about.
All opinions are as valid as one wants to believe they are........mine being no different. Given that.......a .9mm would be generally considered better than a rock, but that doesn't make it a prudent nor safe choice. A full power .357, 10mm., .41 through .44mag. on up is certainly better.
Good placement with any of these is no less important, but there is obviously a bit more wiggle room when these cartridges are employed. Sometimes when we believe that what options we've decided to place are trust in are 'sufficient' for the job or possibilities that we may face, we take chances that we might not otherwise take. And oftentimes these choices are based on financial, 'gut', economic priorities and other reasons beyond our immediate control and we have to necessarily make due with what we have, ie, "better than a rock".
My 4" 629 is handloaded with 300gr. Beartooth bullets that plain destroy things.....big, thick, hard things. And when I place them exactly where I want to or even very close to where I intend, there is mass destruction and no thought of it being just a step or two higher on the "better than a rock" scale.
Confidence, especially in traumatic and quickly evolving situations, allows for more calmness in all situations. In a scenario involving employing a firearm in a protection situation, calmness would also allow for better shot placement. If there is even the slightest doubt that your chosen cartridge will not stop what is now 100% dedicated to trying to maul, murder or kill you, your confidence level in the firearm and cartridge you've just employed better also be at a full 100%......or better. If not, as stated earlier, your confidence/calmness level will be compromised, your shot placement compromised and your full attention to the object of your terror will be compromised because you are already thinking about other options that you must now consider to survive this confrontation.
Having a ballistically proven, well documented 'stopper' cartridge and reliable firearm on your person, one that you've become very proficient with, can help to eliminate all of those compromises. Bullet placement is therefore no more or less important than several other major factors that all need to be in place in order to survive that which itends to do us harm.
Sooo......I would suggest that anytime one feels it necessary to respond to a ballistics related comment with, "well, it's better than a rock", he or she already knows that they are 'undergunned' in regards to the question asked......IMHO.
Good luck...........
Don't feel under armed at all. I'll be carrying a .30-06 and a 9mm, ill be just fine! And like I said, BETTER THAN A ROCK! Seen a man kill a bear with a .243 at 250 yards one shot kill! It is truly ALL about bullet placement. You don't need BIG MAGNUM calibers to get the job done, you just need a well placed shot or two. For you to tell me how I feel about my firearms is just asinine of you my friend!You obviously feel you know your weapons very well which is a good thing. But i think you may have a little bit of a thin skin good luck on your hunt and stay safe :tup:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 17, 2015, 11:15:20 AM
Post by: fisheral87 on July 17, 2015, 12:29:14 PM
The fact that you seem offended by someones concerned for your well being based on their own experience without providing relevant evidence to support your assertions is absurd.
In other words a .243 in a hunting scenario ain't a 9mm in a charging scenario.
Al
P.S. Dwayne Johnson is still the Champ.
Post by: magnumb on July 17, 2015, 12:36:02 PM
Don't feel under armed at all. I'll be carrying a .30-06 and a 9mm, ill be just fine! And like I said, BETTER THAN A ROCK! Seen a man kill a bear with a .243 at 250 yards one shot kill! It is truly ALL about bullet placement. You don't need BIG MAGNUM calibers to get the job done, you just need a well placed shot or two. For you to tell me how I feel about my firearms is just asinine of you my friend!
Asinine............... :). Maybe..... ;).
As was mentioned above, in short, and correctly so.........what the heck does your .243 comparison have to do with a .9mm..... :dunno:.
Many, if not most owners of firearms, know little about their firearms. The internal workings (nomenclature) and potential ballistics using this or that load, bullet, bullet weight and so forth are either not that important to them or they just could care less. A bit like most people don't know alot about their vehicles that they drive daily because they work most of the time. Put gas or bullets in 'em, they run and they shoot, respectively. You're good to go and that's all that matters......you think. But we were talking about a very specific use for a very specific purpose. And even though the ballistics on even a particular 'rock' can be determined given all the information necessary, none of us care because we don't consider a rock a viable alternative to a firearm.
If you read all of your comments carefully and unemotionally, you should be able to clearly see that you 'think' that your .9mm is better than a 'rock', but have no clue as to how much and all of your comments and statements indicate that you are well aware that the .9mm, for your stated purposes, is minimal, at best, under the most advantageous of conditions.
In truth, none of us really knows if your .9mm is "better than a rock", but only because we have no clue as to the specific characteristics of the particular 'rock' that you were intially referring to. Actually, it is quite possible that a particular rock moving at a certain speed with a particular weight and shape will have more energy than the largest, most powerful handguns...............not to mention your .9mm....... ;).
What is lacking here and is not uncommon as I stated earlier, is that you aren't interested in ballistics, know nothing about it and choose to throw out comparisons and other's experiences (.243 example) as definitive answers in a very desperate attempt to support your arguments and position. That just doesn't fly on a site such as this with many experienced and knowledgable hunter/shooters and handloaders. There are many here that are much more 'experienced' that choose to not make comments and definitive statements unless they are totally irrefutable, out of respect for others and themselves. Yet you throw out this and that comparisons that have absolutely no correlation or direct relationship to anything useful, especially ballistically speaking. It is ballistics and ballistics alone that shooting/hunting discussions truly evolve around in one form or another, with very, very few exceptions.
No harm nor foul in being ballistically challenged, again, you are in the majority. But as one would not expect to find a blind man entering into the bull ring nor Taylor Swift taking on Ronda Rousey anytime soon, it might be best to reconsider how you choose to make ballistic comparisons and the manner in which you discount others subtle and polite attempts at guiding you in the direction of perhaps thinking a bit more before you immediately take offense and rush to make an emotionally, totally ballistically related, less than useless response or comment.
I certainly don't have the answer as you are the one and only person that can know for sure, but if you took any prior posts as a direct attempt to disparage you and you alone for reasons that you seem to have conjured up in your own mind and then you not being willing to believe that some members here are actually trying to generally help others (you) to help them become both more informed and safe.......now that would be asinine and perhaps even very costly, in several regards (family, buddy, pet, yourself, etc.).
I doubt that I'd like my bear sausage to have even the slightest hint of Spokane or a Hi-Point after taste............so be safe and do us both a favor.... ;).
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 17, 2015, 12:41:33 PM
A 243 at 250 yards has triple or better the energy your 9 has at the muzzle. :chuckle:muzzle to muzzle the .243 only has about 50% more momentum, which likely counts for more in that situation than energy.
Post by: RadSav on July 17, 2015, 12:48:45 PM
When I took that bear point blank with the .444 I had the option of going after that bear with my .45. But, in that situation and terrain the .444 was the obvious choice due to the likelihood I was going to be loose footed and unable to make a well executed shot. To make the quickest kill possible meant being point blank, going in fast and falling out of the situation immediately. The falling out was easy due to the steepness of the hill, but the rest was a limitation where the .45 was not the right choice.
On the other hand, the bear I double tapped at 5' when it had the dog in it's mouth favored the .45. Long tunnels rabbits thought twice about taking. Dog there to make sure the bear would take another escape route. No room for anything on my back and approach was hands and knees. Getting an accurate shot seemed easier with the .45 under those conditions and I knew the bear had other places to run than right at me. The situation was able to be controlled and there was no need for a rush and bail approach. Only reason it played out the way it did is that the bear was killing the dog and I knew the size of the bear and the angle of attack favored the weapon on hand. It was the right weapon and luckily all worked perfectly.
Either of those situations would have played out much differently had I only been armed with a 9mm. We may have lost one and I'm sure the animal would have suffered longer on the other as we waited for a favorable situation to arise for the weapon at hand. Had we used the same approach in both scenarios armed only with a 9mm...I can not say with certainty what would have happened. Would I have died? - Not likely. But the danger level would have surely risen to something more than my comfort level would accept for myself, the dog and the client.
Is the 9 better than a rock? If you MUST use it...absolutely! But if armed with only a rock makes you avoid a bad situation that favors neither? Then no, the 9mm is not better than a rock!
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 17, 2015, 12:53:48 PM
i calculate it as more than double the momentum at muzzle. Even at 250 yards the 243 momentum is drastically more than the 9 at the muzzle.A 243 at 250 yards has triple or better the energy your 9 has at the muzzle. :chuckle:muzzle to muzzle the .243 only has about 50% more momentum, which likely counts for more in that situation than energy.
In the end how a 243 performs is not relevant at all to how a 9 would perform. The 243 wins every time.
Post by: fisheral87 on July 17, 2015, 01:06:14 PM
Post by: Kittman on July 17, 2015, 01:12:47 PM
Post by: tonymiller7 on July 17, 2015, 01:57:30 PM
P.S. Dwayne Johnson is still the Champ.
I wouldn't know, I quit watching it when Austin and The Rock left. The product today is TRASH! Long live the ATTITUDE ERA!
Post by: Machias on July 17, 2015, 06:16:50 PM
Post by: JJB11B on July 17, 2015, 06:28:28 PM
Dwayne Johnson is The Rock
P.S. Dwayne Johnson is still the Champ.
I wouldn't know, I quit watching it when Austin and The Rock left. The product today is TRASH! Long live the ATTITUDE ERA!
Post by: magnumb on July 17, 2015, 07:14:10 PM
Like to add a couple of thoughts, firstly that list is only bear fatalities. Does not include attacks that were not fatal and it does not include attacks lethal and non-lethal committed by lions. Just because I choose to wear a sidearm does not mean I'm freaking out about bears or any other predator. I have been close to many bears, probably more than a good chunk of folks here. I have a healthy respect for them, but do not fear them. I carry in the woods for the same reason I carry when I'm not in the woods. You never know when you might need it. I always go into the woods with a fire starter, so far in nearly 40 years I've never needed to start a fire to save my life, but it would be foolish in my opinion not to have it in case I needed it.
Good points......all..... :tup:.
Whether in the woods or within the city, I CC for the exact same reason. And yes, bears aren't the only 4-legged animal that cause me to be aware while afield. Also, animals protecting their young and those predisposed to rabies also have my undivided attention. Humans.......they are always at the top of that list.
I have also been fortunate throughout many decades to have had numerous encounters with bears/cubs and to a lesser degree, cougars(5). I'm in awe of them and their skills and abilities, but like you, I don't fear them.
I would suggest that we also are somewhat less intimidated, to a certain degree, by both our field/shooting skills and general animal knowledge and by our choice of protection/firearm/caliber, be it while afield or in a populated area.
There can be no more of a confidence enhancer in a unintentional overnight stay in the woods than having a well chosen firearm on your person......for several reasons. The obvious safety/protection reason and also as a pure survivalist tool. I want enough momentum and/or energy (I'll let the other 2 members sort that one out..... :)) from the firearm/cartridge that I've chosen to drop whatever animal can serve as food and shelter for me, if need be. Not all situations and potentially deadly scenarios occur during weather systems like we're currently experiencing. Killing an elk, if in elk country, would serve several important purposes. The seemingly obvious food factor likely being everyone's first thought and priority. But in the dead of winter, finding shelter within the warm body cavity of an elk, albeit inclusive of some work and spent energy, can be the difference between welcoming the next morning or not.
In order to maximize those chances and subsequent opportunities, your choice of firearm and cartridge should realistically take into account that potential. Given outright hunting with a handgun compared with the survival scenario using a handgun, there should be exactly zero difference in your reasoning to choose the same firearm/cartridge in either situation.
More, even oftentimes just a little bit more, is often the most prudent choice. The % of times the majority of us had ever wished that we were using a 'lesser' cartridge likely pales in comparison to wishing the opposite.
It's all about confidence......so pick wisely, cuz' when you're 'in it', that's not the time to be questioning or feeling just so-so about your choice.
Post by: jasnt on July 17, 2015, 10:50:26 PM
Post by: buglebrush on July 17, 2015, 11:06:04 PM
Post by: Romulus1297 on July 17, 2015, 11:14:04 PM
Post by: JJB11B on July 17, 2015, 11:16:21 PM
What was Hirshey's sidearm during her last trip into a grizzly bait station?a polaski? just a guess
Post by: Romulus1297 on July 17, 2015, 11:20:48 PM
Post by: magnumb on July 18, 2015, 12:25:59 AM
I own and carry a Ruger Redhawk .44 mag. And a 5" XD .45 that I shoot buffalo bore +p flatnose. The thing is the XD carries so nice right on my waist belt I usually carry it when hunting ( archery ). I had an experience with a grizzly last year that makes me wish I could carry my .44 as easily. Ease of carry vs improved firepower...
Funny.......I'll soon own a Glock G30S in .45 ACP that I'm considering very much as a possible field gun in addition to my much trusted 4" 629, .44mag. that I've faithfully and confidentally carried afield for decades (300gr. WFNHCGC Beartooth bullets, which I handload to it's full potential). But where I 'play', the grizz has yet to firmly establish any #'s or specific territories. If in grizz country, I'd feel a bit more confident with a Casull on my hip, but I have no doubt this .44 load will make more than a lasting impression on all but the largest grizz. That said, not even the .500 is reassuring enough.
My first .44mag was also a 629, but in the 6" offering. I decided to try to make carrying afield as comfortable and less taxing as possible, so I went with the 4" version and I couldn't be happier. It obviously carries lighter and less bulky than the original, but also shoots just as well, if not a little bit better. It's amazing what 2" can amount to over time. In fact, I took a nice 2X2 blacktail with it a few years back (60 lasered yds., open sights) and was impressed with my handload and this shorter barreled 629.
Given the terminal results, albeit not on a black bear, I have no doubt as to it's potential on any game considered potentially dangerous in parts where I enjoy recreating.
So buglebrush......I certainly understand your dilema as comfort and ease of carrying means much more to me now than it once did....... ;). I fully expect that my current 629 will not lose it's coveted spot in the near future, but I also feel quite comfortable that a well placed and constructed .45 pill will handily end any situation that it might be called upon to remedy.
My concern, this year anyway, doesn't really factor in the grizz factor as you evidently must do........and understandably so. I don't know the barrel length of you RRH, but if 6" or longer, reducing that length to a 4" will likely help you a bunch with your current dilema.
Good luck!
Post by: Romulus1297 on July 18, 2015, 01:51:27 AM
Post by: Romulus1297 on July 18, 2015, 02:04:48 AM
Post by: nastybynature on July 18, 2015, 09:27:11 PM
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Post by: Machias on July 19, 2015, 07:22:20 AM
app=desktop
Post by: magnumb on July 19, 2015, 07:55:22 AM
I think this may change Radsav's mind about carrying.
app=desktop
Pretty amazing!
I can't even bite my foot, much less.........
Post by: tgomez on July 19, 2015, 08:28:51 AM
Lol, yeah I have an 8 year old who LOVES WWE so Ill watch with him once in awhile. I agree though not as entertaining today.
P.S. Dwayne Johnson is still the Champ.
I wouldn't know, I quit watching it when Austin and The Rock left. The product today is TRASH! Long live the ATTITUDE ERA!
Post by: tgomez on July 19, 2015, 08:35:04 AM
I think this may change Radsav's mind about carrying.Lol, watch out for Bruce Lee bear.
app=desktop
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on July 19, 2015, 08:45:07 AM
Don't feel under armed at all. I'll be carrying a .30-06 and a 9mm, ill be just fine! And like I said, BETTER THAN A ROCK! Seen a man kill a bear with a .243 at 250 yards one shot kill! It is truly ALL about bullet placement. You don't need BIG MAGNUM calibers to get the job done, you just need a well placed shot or two. For you to tell me how I feel about my firearms is just asinine of you my friend!I like your way of thinking :tup:
Post by: tgomez on July 19, 2015, 09:03:33 AM
Like to add a couple of thoughts, firstly that list is only bear fatalities. Does not include attacks that were not fatal and it does not include attacks lethal and non-lethal committed by lions. Just because I choose to wear a sidearm does not mean I'm freaking out about bears or any other predator. I have been close to many bears, probably more than a good chunk of folks here. I have a healthy respect for them, but do not fear them. I carry in the woods for the same reason I carry when I'm not in the woods. You never know when you might need it. I always go into the woods with a fire starter, so far in nearly 40 years I've never needed to start a fire to save my life, but it would be foolish in my opinion not to have it in case I needed it.This is exactly what I was trying to relay, better to have ANY sidearm than none at all.
Post by: magnumb on July 19, 2015, 10:26:37 AM
Like to add a couple of thoughts, firstly that list is only bear fatalities. Does not include attacks that were not fatal and it does not include attacks lethal and non-lethal committed by lions. Just because I choose to wear a sidearm does not mean I'm freaking out about bears or any other predator. I have been close to many bears, probably more than a good chunk of folks here. I have a healthy respect for them, but do not fear them. I carry in the woods for the same reason I carry when I'm not in the woods. You never know when you might need it. I always go into the woods with a fire starter, so far in nearly 40 years I've never needed to start a fire to save my life, but it would be foolish in my opinion not to have it in case I needed it.This is exactly what I was trying to relay, better to have ANY sidearm than none at all.
Perhaps..........but I guess that I don't read it the same way, not at all. And to assume that Machias's post was "exactly what you were trying to say" might be taking unwarranted liberties with his posts intentions in suggesting that he is in total agreement with your "....ANY sidearm...." statement.
I guess that I'd have to be 110% sure of such an assumption prior to posting what I'd like to believe as opposed to what actually might be the case.
Again........in Machias's well presented post which I long ago stated that I agreed with, I truly can't see where you've construed any of his post as a mirror image of your own woods protocol and then further drawing the undisputed conclusion that he is promoting the carrying of ANY SIDEARM while afield, no matter the inherent dangers in that particular area, the cartridge/caliber/gauge chosen, pistol/revolver/single shot, break open/mag fed from .17 to 50 BMG......which you state that are all better than 'a rock'.
Perhaps that's exactly what he meant, but unless I knew for sure, I would not be assuming and then feeling quite justified and comfortable in using another members words to benefit and promote my own position unless I knew for certain that he or she felt the exact same way and then allowed me to say so.
Post by: Kmerr98277 on July 19, 2015, 10:31:37 AM
Post by: MountainWalk on July 19, 2015, 10:43:04 AM
Post by: bearpaw on July 19, 2015, 11:17:38 AM
All the close quarter calls while guiding were created intentionally in an effort to recover a clients animal. ALL were wounded previously by poor shots or poor bullet performance. ALL could have easily been avoidable. The only time I used a sidearm was because of the density of brush making it easier than the rifles we carried.
In Canada we've actually tried to initiate a charge from black bear boars. I've always wanted to shoot a bear inside 10 yards on a charge as if elephant hunting. Of the dozen or so bear we have been able to encourage to charge not one of them would commit to coming closer than ten yards. Many came back time after time, but each chickened out before reaching the shoot zone. Has been exciting, but nothing that would make a guy wet himself.
One case in Canada we had a sow with twin cubs use us as a shield for a boar intent on having cub sandwiches for lunch. The sow was as close as 5 yards behind us as we faced off with the boar. He charged more than 15 times! Had he been a different color I would likely have killed him on a few of those charges in to about 12 yards as I had only a bow that day (friend/guide had 308 Win). But not being the color I was after we stood our ground until he gave up and moved on. That sow was pretty darn smart. Though I'm sure she was not happy we didn't kill that bad boy. One of my favorite hunts ever, but still no real danger presented itself.
I was attacked by a bear a few years ago. He put all 15-20 pounds of his might into my boot as I tried to kick him away. I think he even left a bruise on my ankle :chuckle: :chuckle:
Most guys that get all worked up and spout off about how you must have a sidearm to protect yourself when bear hunting can be written off as not having much experience with bear. We do have a couple members here that have had encounters that seem legitimate and too close not to react. So it can happen for sure. I'm just not going to work myself into a panic if I don't have a gun at my side while in bear country or even while bear hunting. I do make sure I fasten my seatbelt on the drive up there, though ;)
When I do carry it's usually a 45 or a 10mm. The .444 Trapper was even better. Wish I still had that gun!
Good comments! :tup:
We have killed hundreds of bear over the years and I've never seen an unprovoked attack. The times bear seemingly charged, for the most part they were trying to take an escape route, they love to pop their teeth and bluff charge if you get too close, especially when you climb up a tree they are in, but I've never seen one finish the charge and attack.
One time years ago I had chased a bear all day and figured the hounds finally caught the bear about 3 pm but had trouble finding them, I could hear them at times and then they would disappear, I had a suspicion they were in a hole and sure enough I finally found them with a bear cornered in a cave. We caught some of the dogs and leashed them outside the cave but three of them were face to face with the bear 40 feet in at the end of the cave and wouldn't come out. As soon as you get to the dogs they get bolder, I was afraid they were going to get hurt so I found a long stick, put a rope noose on the end, taped a AA light to my 44 pistol barrel and crawled in feet first to save my dogs. It was pretty tight, I couldn't sit up or crawl on my knees, I scooted on my butt and back with my feet first, figured it would be better if the feet got chewed on than my head. I got within about 10-12 feet and tried to get a noose on one of the dogs to pull him back, no luck. The bear was tucked to the right swatting and biting at the dogs, finally I put the long limb between the dogs and bear and started forcing the dogs away from the bear. I'm not sure what happened but there was a big blowup and suddenly I had the bear's head right between my two feet. I tried to pull the hammer back quickly and shoot but the pistol went click, click, click! Looking back I know what happened! I was so excited I didn't pull the hammer all the way back, it wasn't rotating the cylinder to the loaded rounds. I always carry my revolver with no round under the hammer. I'm actually glad it didn't go off in that tight little cave! :chuckle:
I realized the dogs were biting the bear on the back end and that bear wanted out but he hadn't bit me yet, it seemed like he just wanted out and he didn't want to walk on me. I quickly scooted as tight to the side of the cave as possible, I covered my head and neck with my arms as the bear managed to scoot and rub past me with the dogs right behind him. I hollered at everyone outside "He's coming out! They later told me I sounded like a woman screaming! :chuckle:
The bear exited the hole and the hunter missed the bear 3 times as he ran off and out of sight. I came out and could have jumped 6 feet in the air, I've never had that kind of adrenaline rush in my life, wow was that exciting!
I released the other dogs in hopes that they would catch the bear again, but that bear would never stop more than a few minutes in one spot and then would run again. Finally about midnight I started getting my dogs back as they gave up. The point of the story is that the bear had every chance to bite me and never did! It's really rare that a bear will attack but it does happen on rare occasion so like everyone else, I think it's wise for someone to carry protection when in bear country.
With that said I should also mention that I've seen epic failures regarding bullet performance, bullet placement, and hunter/gun capability. In my opinion 90% of hunters carrying a pistol are not very good marksmen with their own pistol, myself included. After seeing hundreds of bear shot with most any imaginable caliber in all types of situations, if I had to carry anything less than a 357 Mag, it would be a 22 mag since they get fair penetration, enough to kill a bear with a head shot or maybe a yearling with a chest shot. Most of the short pistol cartridges designed for human defense are a waste of space when it comes to killing a bear. They make noise that might scare a bear away, but they can't penetrate well enough to kill a bear unless you happen to hit an eyehole or something like that! If you put a bullet from a small pistol in the spine it might do enough damage to the spine you might put a bear down so you could get away but an eye or spine is a pretty tough target on an attacking bear! My advice, if you really want to carry bear protection, carry a pistol with at least as much energy as a 357 magnum!
No, not .38's in a 357, I've seen that fail, IMHO you want 357 or larger pistol ammo! If you only own a minimal caliber, carry it, maybe the noise will be enough deterrent! :tup:
Post by: tgomez on July 19, 2015, 12:52:51 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 19, 2015, 12:59:04 PM
Listen, if you see me in a fight with a bear don't help me help the bear! :tup:to keep and arm bears!
Post by: magnumb on July 19, 2015, 02:17:21 PM
I spent time down a few holes is SEA with a rope tied to me, a flashlight and a .45 in hand. Seems we both enjoyed that experience about as much as one possibly could...... ;).
I agree with both your chances of actually being mauled and your minimal choice of handgun/cartridge using a .357 with full house .357 loads, in fact, an earlier post of mine did state exactly that.
A guide friend in MT. (ex-Marine, Nam vet, as well), put 5 rounds of .41 Rem Mag into a client wounded charging blackie and none penetrated deep enough to do any harm except the 5th one. He placed the 5th into the temple area of that bear at PBR as it headed for his client just to his left and that bullet did enough damage to stop that bear.
All 5 bullets were recovered, all perfectly mushroomed Hornady XTP's, that were so perfectly mushroomed as to be magazine worthy. So, not only should you choose 'enough gun', but the proper pills, as well.
Thanks again for the excellent read.... :tup:.
Post by: JJB11B on July 19, 2015, 02:36:49 PM
Post by: bearpaw on July 19, 2015, 02:56:17 PM
While I am no expert nor have I ever had a close call with a 4 legged predator one thing I consider with defense carry while hunting is penetration. Even when I am carrying my .357 I refrain from running a hollow point. I will trade energy for penetration 100% of the time when my suspected threat has a very thick hide and dense bone structure. I want that bullet to punch through the "armor" and get to the important plumbing or wiring on that critter. :twocents: But that is my own unproven theory, makes sense in my head.
Totally agree on the HP's for bear, I think you are right on target with your penetration theory! :tup:
Incredible story Bearpaw..........and very well written! I enjoyed that very much!
I spent time down a few holes is SEA with a rope tied to me, a flashlight and a .45 in hand. Seems we both enjoyed that experience about as much as one possibly could...... ;).
I agree with both your chances of actually being mauled and your minimal choice of handgun/cartridge using a .357 with full house .357 loads, in fact, an earlier post of mine did state exactly that.
A guide friend in MT. (ex-Marine, Nam vet, as well), put 5 rounds of .41 Rem Mag into a client wounded charging blackie and none penetrated deep enough to do any harm except the 5th one. He placed the 5th into the temple area of that bear at PBR as it headed for his client just to his left and that bullet did enough damage to stop that bear.
All 5 bullets were recovered, all perfectly mushroomed Hornady XTP's, that were so perfectly mushroomed as to be magazine worthy. So, not only should you choose 'enough gun', but the proper pills, as well.
Thanks again for the excellent read.... :tup:.
Bigger bear especially need larger guns due to the penetration needed to get to the vitals. Just like you, I've also seen big bear take 41 or 44 pistol rounds with little effect, upon later examination the bullets simply were not getting to the vitals. :dunno:
Post by: magnumb on July 19, 2015, 03:01:50 PM
If hollow points are designed to expand when encountering human tissue/apparrel, a bears coat and big boned body will no doubt pose a much tougher task. Use loads, handloads or commercial, that will penetrate deeply and break everything that bullet comes in contact with.
With the huge selection of calibers out there, specifically handgun calibers, there are certainly many more less capable of meeting 'bear' criteria as opposed to those that have a much better chance of seeing you through to another day.
Choose both the caliber and pill that best offers you that opportunity...... ;)
Post by: Bofire on July 19, 2015, 03:18:40 PM
There is a lot to know about guns, loads and bears.
Carl
Post by: MountainWalk on July 19, 2015, 03:29:27 PM
Post by: Igor on July 19, 2015, 04:01:57 PM
While I am no expert nor have I ever had a close call with a 4 legged predator one thing I consider with defense carry while hunting is penetration. Even when I am carrying my .357 I refrain from running a hollow point. I will trade energy for penetration 100% of the time when my suspected threat has a very thick hide and dense bone structure. I want that bullet to punch through the "armor" and get to the important plumbing or wiring on that critter. :twocents: But that is my own unproven theory, makes sense in my head.
Penetration is paramount, and that will not happen with hollow points. I carry a S&W Mountain Gun in .45 Colt. I use Double Tap ammo which is designed for maximum penetration; a cast bullet with a large meplat (frontal area). IMO the .45 Colt is the minimum caliber I would expect to do the job on a black bear.
When I am in the woods scouting, without my rifle, or just hiking, my Mountain Gun is always with me.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi165.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu63%2Ffnu_lnu_photos%2FDSCN1938_zpsvrqaadu9.jpg&hash=96dee1476592ae369df90e43efd894b5719e8648)
Post by: nastybynature on July 19, 2015, 04:29:08 PM
While I am no expert nor have I ever had a close call with a 4 legged predator one thing I consider with defense carry while hunting is penetration. Even when I am carrying my .357 I refrain from running a hollow point. I will trade energy for penetration 100% of the time when my suspected threat has a very thick hide and dense bone structure. I want that bullet to punch through the "armor" and get to the important plumbing or wiring on that critter. :twocents: But that is my own unproven theory, makes sense in my head.
Agreed! That is why when reduced to carrying my .380, for concealment purposes and defensive use on the 2 legged type species, I only use FMJ loads. No hollow points just in case they have a leather jacket or something else on that can effect penetration. I hardly ever take that one out of the safe though, except for target practice of course.
Post by: magnumb on July 19, 2015, 09:43:59 PM
While I am no expert nor have I ever had a close call with a 4 legged predator one thing I consider with defense carry while hunting is penetration. Even when I am carrying my .357 I refrain from running a hollow point. I will trade energy for penetration 100% of the time when my suspected threat has a very thick hide and dense bone structure. I want that bullet to punch through the "armor" and get to the important plumbing or wiring on that critter. :twocents: But that is my own unproven theory, makes sense in my head.
Agreed! That is why when reduced to carrying my .380, for concealment purposes and defensive use on the 2 legged type species, I only use FMJ loads. No hollow points just in case they have a leather jacket or something else on that can effect penetration. I hardly ever take that one out of the safe though, except for target practice of course.
I totally agree with you both...... :tup:.
From .380 on down, no HP's for me under any circumstance.
Post by: magnumb on July 19, 2015, 10:31:15 PM
__________________________________________________________________
You sleep in a bit longer at your mountain cabin and your wife, young daughter, son and dog are already up and about, letting you get a bit more shut eye.
You're immediately awakened by loud screams and barking, unlike you've ever heard before. In that mix of sounds, you hear the distinct and unique growls and gutteral sounds that could only come from an enraged bear. You immediately jump out of your bunk knowing what you will see not 10 feet from your cabin door. You are a very sensible individual that others consider to be both woods savvy and always quite dependable. However, not in your entire life did you ever think that something this horrific could happen to either you or yours.
Upon throwing the door open, your nightmare becomes a reality when you see a large blackie boar standing over your daughter with her thigh in his mouth as he tries repeatedly to tear her thigh and attached leg from the rest of her small body with his steel trap jaws and his powerful and relentless head shakes.
You immediately turn to the kitchen table, both handguns are the same distance from you and you grab one of the 2 available guns and immediately head out the door to confront this horrific event that is unfolding not 10 feet in front of you. Your daughters life is most likely now completely in your hands.....quite literally.
On the kitchen table was both a .9mm pistol and a .44mag revolver right next to one another, both fully loaded (the .9mm with the most penetrating, 'heavy for' bullets available and the .44mag is loaded with 300gr. hard cast, flat nosed bullets....both loaded to their max potential).
You are a proficient and experienced handgunner with many different handguns and no matter the caliber and format/brand of the gun, you've shown to be very able to put any handgun into action quickly and effectively.
Which handgun did you choose.....? Why.....?
Post by: tgomez on July 19, 2015, 10:55:23 PM
Post by: Firedogg on July 19, 2015, 11:22:50 PM
Here's an interesting read on defensive bear shooting....
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/defensive.html
Post by: magnumb on July 20, 2015, 12:12:01 AM
In truth, my last post was not directed at you. You have made your point about any firearm being better than none at all, which is in most cases is true, but certainly not always and not under all conditions.
What is disconcerting in this thread are posts which state that they have heard or seen this caliber do this or that, when logic says that yes, all things are possible, but not neccessarily prudent, intelligent nor safe.
For example.....Bofire offers some interesting experiences and examples of bear killings that make little logical sense and I have no reason nor want whatsoever to question those examples. But if I were asked what I thought Bofire's intent was in sharing those examples, from his own words and then trying to decipher what he was attempting to say which is there for all to take their own stab at, I would say that he would grab either firearm off that kitchen table, given his carefully chosen examples. Whether true or imagined, it is just hard to believe that he would not intentionally grab the .44, as you and I would. It just doesn't make any sense given their vast terminal effectiveness differences.
If a less experienced member were to read only Bofire's examples in this entire thread, he or she would have to believe that of the 4 calibers he mentions, only the .357 is always totally effective on bear, the .9mm can nearly do as good a job as the .357, the .44mag fails miserably on bear and the 30-06 is a great 'put away' caliber/cartridge. Remember, there are members here that are not only new here, but are new to hunting/shooting and totally ignorant as to why and how ballistics play such a major role in terminal effectiveness.
This new members 'take away' then is, in his mind, information that will likely guide him in his very next (very first, perhaps), firearms purchase., even though Bofire failed to share his thoughts on what he thought might be the most prudent, minimal choice for woods carry. Examples were given that would leave a new or experienced member thoroughly confused as to what caliber/cartridge (minimal on up) he feels has the most potential to effectively and quickly end a bear attack.
Most here are interested in others opinions, especially from those members whom we are astute enough to know, in fact, are experienced. I'd suggest that offering examples of incidents and situations and their results that are considered somewhat contrary to what most would consider more logical outcomes, is a distraction, at best. If I want someone's opinion on something, especially when it involves the safety of me or mine, give me all of the examples you'd like, but rather than muddy the waters and then leave, offer some informed suggestions based on your knowledge of said animal, calibers and/or cartridges.
Newbies are exactly that....new to whatever. Many experienced hunters/shooters are still less experienced than others. If one has no opinion.....great. But rather than, again, muddy the waters for whatever reason, think of the impact on those that are truly looking for answers to their quest to become 'more experienced'.
In truth, that particular post left me with exactly nothing, except, anythings possible. There are likely as many, if not more, examples that members here can offer in subsequent posts detailing the failures and successes of those examples, but reversing each outcome. But where would that leave us and what can we learn from such posts. That anythings possible........? We know that already.
Let's hear your experiences, no matter how logical or illogical, but more importantly, give us your personal thoughts, suggestions, preferences, choices and/or feelings on the subject and let us sort it out.
Post by: magnumb on July 20, 2015, 12:29:13 AM
I'm reaching the other direction for the .45-70 kept behind the door.
Here's an interesting read on defensive bear shooting....
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/defensive.html
That's cheating........ ;).
That was an interesting read...........thanks!
I have watched numerous videos where idiots jump into bear enclosures in zoo's and those who by some stupid move, allow themselves to be grabbed by a bear. These bears range from blackies to grizzlies and polar bears. SOB!! I want none of that......... :yike:.
The strength, fury, focus and agility these bears show when they've 'captured' a human is absolutely horrifying and amazing. When they say, "save a bullet for yourself", that's not far from the truth. They can be so relentless in certain situations.
If you don't break them down immediately, your last, best chance is truly gone......unless that bear allows you to live.
Again, good read.......thanks for sharin' that article..... ;).
Post by: Firedogg on July 20, 2015, 05:13:35 PM
Post by: tgomez on July 21, 2015, 05:15:06 AM
Post by: Okanagan on July 21, 2015, 06:50:58 AM
When I was a teen hunting in WA State I carried a .22 pistol for grouse sometimes, and for awhile in Canada carried a legal air pistol for the same reasons. I quit carrying both because the bulk and weight were not worth the few extra grouse I killed. Likewise, for me, the danger from a bear or cougar is not enough to induce me to carry the extra cumber. I well recognize the danger and it is a personal choice for me alone and not something recommended to anyone else. Make your own call.
Human predators are a much more serious danger, a different topic, and worth the inconvenience of carrying for many of us.
Re killing power, black bears are relatively easy to kill on my tenacity-of-life scale, except for the exceptions which can take a phenomenal amount of killing. Their skull is strong enough to deflect a 30-30 bullet if hit at an oblique angle. I have seen the kill or handled black bears killed with the following: tire iron, recurve bow, compound bow, .22 long rifle, 22-250, 6mm & .243, 270, 7mm mag., 30-06, 300 Win. Mag., .338 Win., and a .375 H&H. The tire iron was some cowboy friends who roped and tied a black bear, loaded it in a pick-up and one tapped it to settle it down when it got rambunctious. He tapped it too hard. The .375 was used by a nervous new hunter who shot the bear in the rump as it ran away at 40 yards and the (270 or 300 grain?) Nosler Partition was lodged under a bulge in the hide on the bear's forehead, shot between the eyes-- from the opposite end. The .22 was a teenager friend hunting grouse who killed a large black bear from a rest with a shot in the ear at 40 feet.
I've been threatened by several grizzlies and several black bears but never yet touched by one, though I swatted a black bear with a sack of garbage once. I'm going berry picking this afternoon, where I ran into a bear while picking last week. If I survive till this evening, maybe I should post to let folks know I'm OK!
Post by: jkthomps on July 21, 2015, 09:26:22 PM
I can't stop laughing at all the BS in this thread hahahaha
Cheers!
Post by: police women of America on July 21, 2015, 09:51:26 PM
Post by: police women of America on July 21, 2015, 09:52:23 PM
Im a just bring my wife with me! The bear will want no piece of her! Run bear runnnnnnnnnnnn :chuckle: :chuckle::chuckle:
Post by: mountainman on July 21, 2015, 11:30:08 PM
Omfg how much banter can one thread have lol! Nice job firedogg, look at all this BS storytelling banter can of worms you opened hahaha. To answer the original question, I carry an XD45. Like many, I use it more or less for 2 legged animals. .45 is plenty for a black bear, I won't give a story or my "opinion" since the original question/post did not inquire, I know from 1st hand experience... 230 grain fmc does the trick just fine.but it is good for the amusement tho! Lots of experts here with oh so much advise :) luv it! :tup:
I can't stop laughing at all the BS in this thread hahahaha
Cheers!
Post by: jkthomps on July 22, 2015, 07:30:38 AM
Omfg how much banter can one thread have lol! Nice job firedogg, look at all this BS storytelling banter can of worms you opened hahaha. To answer the original question, I carry an XD45. Like many, I use it more or less for 2 legged animals. .45 is plenty for a black bear, I won't give a story or my "opinion" since the original question/post did not inquire, I know from 1st hand experience... 230 grain fmc does the trick just fine.but it is good for the amusement tho! Lots of experts here with oh so much advise :) luv it! :tup:
I can't stop laughing at all the BS in this thread hahahaha
Cheers!
Exactly! Surprisingly there is some good info and amusement :tup:
Post by: magnumb on July 22, 2015, 07:38:12 AM
Omfg how much banter can one thread have lol! Nice job firedogg, look at all this BS storytelling banter can of worms you opened hahaha. To answer the original question, I carry an XD45. Like many, I use it more or less for 2 legged animals. .45 is plenty for a black bear, I won't give a story or my "opinion" since the original question/post did not inquire, I know from 1st hand experience... 230 grain fmc does the trick just fine.
I can't stop laughing at all the BS in this thread hahahaha
Cheers!
.....but in a self serving attempt to disparage all others that you feel obviously less experienced, not worthy of contributing their thoughts and knowledgable than yourself, you just happen to offer up the very clear inference that you have come face to face with a bear, survived and handily dispatched it with your XDS45, ala, your "I know from 1st hand experience.....". And this, your unsolicited 'Field and Stream' moment, just happens to be contained within the same exact sentence where you state, "I won't give my a story or my 'opinion' since the original question/post did not inquire....".
The "original question/post did not inquire" anything but "what's ur poison"....did it..? So why add the self serving and disparaging banter about others posts, especially when the OP's original question/post clearly did not ask for your opinion on the content of others posts...... :dunno:. It is more than evident that you feel others posts in this thread are totally useless and that you truly consider yourself the only qualified and worthy member/hunter that should be able to both determine and pass judgement on any and all others and their opinions. If this isn't an exact depiction of you and your attitude, where, in your post, is this not exactly what you did or reflect how you feel and view yourself....? You certainly think alot of yourself.
Being that you obviously very much coveted/embraced and now yearn to return to the 'hall monitor' status of your childhood, complaining about others having done exactly what you then quite intentionally and willingly did yourself, is quite understandable....unfortunately. Old habits die hard, especially when one feels somehow superior to all others. Why else would you feel it your right to be so disparaging of others? More importantly, why else would you then immediately do exactly the same thing that you just complained about in your banter filled post.......... :dunno:.
All your "hahahaha's...." and demeaning comments in your one post sold me on the determination of your 'hall monitor' personality as you seem to think that this is just a competition of some sort, just like we approached most things when we were just little, impulsive, smart ass'd kids.
Some grow up, others...............not so much.
Post by: magnumb on July 22, 2015, 07:51:37 AM
[/quote]
Ahhh...........the 'hall monitor' understudy/'wanna-be'........such a commendable and admirable aspiration..... :tup:.
Nothing to offer to the OP's inquiry or to the common good of the forum as a whole, so let's piggyback on that other guys post and try to replenish and boost your confidence level and/or image that you, alone, have of yourself.
That's useful and productive to all other's trying to gain information so that they might make more informed decisions going forward ......... :tup:
Cheers!
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 22, 2015, 07:57:30 AM
but it is good for the amusement tho! Lots of experts here with oh so much advise :) luv it! :tup:
Ahhh...........the 'hall monitor' understudy.
Nothing to offer to the OP's inquiry or to the common good of the forum as a whole, so let's piggyback on that other guys post and try to replenish and boost your confidence level and/or image that you have of yourself.
That's useful and productive to all other's trying to gain information so that they might make more informed decisions going forward ......... :tup:
[/quote]
You forgot, "Cheers"
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 22, 2015, 08:05:21 AM
In a fight with a bear there are no rules, so it wasn't cheating. :IBCOOL: :IBCOOL:
Canada has rules
Quote
Grizzly Bear Encounter: Rogers Pass, British Columbia (July 9th, 2015)http://whippersandtears.com/man-vs-grizzly-bear-and-lydia-marmont/
Having just climbed the Southeast Ridge of Mt Uto, my partner and I were descending lazily in the extreme heat of the afternoon when an off-duty ‘visitor safety’ specialist named Lydia blew past us. Despite a grizzly bear advisory on the trail, she left her climbing partners in the dust (maybe they were slowpokes?) and scampered down the trail solo, sans bear spray, until she surprised a large female grizzly feeding on roots slapdab in the middle of the path. Understandably not wanting to get into a ‘right-of-way’ dispute with the large bruin, she backtracked up the talus slope, and waited for us.
Arriving on the scene, I promptly whipped out my pepper spray and a large machete, ready for battle should the bear decide we looked like fish n’chips. But alas! The ranger informed me that I could ‘go to prison’ for defending myself against a bear attack with any kind of sharp object. Apparently in Glacier National Park self-defense is illegal; just let the animals eat you. What about rocks? Could I bash the bruin on the head with a pointy rock if it got the better of me? She didn’t know. Then I reached for my GoPro as she recoiled in horror; ‘no knives or GoPros!’ I guess cameras are illegal too.
With the bear refusing to budge, she radioed for help at the ranger station, and they told us to wait until we formed a group of five or more, and then descend, but only if the grizz graciously ceded us the right-of-way. Otherwise, get comfortable. After some consideration, I was OK with waiting – you pick the devil you dance with, and I had no burning desire to tango with this monstrous bruin. As we waited for another party to catch up, the ranger drolled on about how useless my knives would be in a rumble with a bear. ‘They don’t even pierce the hide,’ she chided. Uh huh. Having spent twenty years exploring the backcountry, I’ve been charged twice by grizzly and encountered countless bears. Lydia had worked in Rogers Pass for a year and never laid eyes on a brown bear before; she talked about this stuff like she read it in a pamphlet. Pissed off, I told the ranger that if the grizz got feisty with her, I’d make sure to keep the knife in its sheath; she was on her own. Sorry Lydia, but prison sucks.
The ban on filming brown bear with GoPros confuses me, but not as much as the law against defending onself with all means available in the event of a predatory animal attack. Her argument was that a knife would be useless against a bear. Maybe, maybe not. Wild Bill Hickok reportedly killed a grizzly with a hunting knife. In more recent times, during the summer of 2014 a Minnesota man killed a 525lb black bear armed only with a small knife, stabbing the attacking bruin more than twenty times. The bear was so huge it took ten men to drag its carcass back to camp. A year before that, in 2013, Fraser Graham killed angry grizzly with a hunting knife as it severely mauled him. Back in 1999, Alaska hunter Gene Moe was charged and knocked down by a grizzly while he skinned a deer. Having left his rifle a hundred meters away, he had only a small blade to fend off the savage attack. He cut its throat and survived – the bear was not so lucky. In all three cases, carrying a knife saved the lives of these men. In none of the cases, did the knife fail to pierce the hide, as Lydia Marmont would have us believe.
Is a bear gonna *censored* you up if it’s in a hurtin’ kind of mood? Hell yes. But would you rather fight a grizzly with bare knuckles or with an 24 inch razor-sharp Cold Steel machete called ‘CHAOS’?
Post by: magnumb on July 22, 2015, 08:23:06 AM
but it is good for the amusement tho! Lots of experts here with oh so much advise :) luv it! :tup:
Ahhh...........the 'hall monitor' understudy.
Nothing to offer to the OP's inquiry or to the common good of the forum as a whole, so let's piggyback on that other guys post and try to replenish and boost your confidence level and/or image that you have of yourself.
That's useful and productive to all other's trying to gain information so that they might make more informed decisions going forward ......... :tup:
You forgot, "Cheers"
[/quote]
Fixed it.....thanks.... :tup:.
Post by: mountainman on July 22, 2015, 09:40:20 AM
Post by: MountainWalk on July 22, 2015, 09:52:18 AM
Post by: magnumb on July 22, 2015, 10:06:35 AM
Easy cowboy..no need to take my comment so personally :)it was meant to some of the long winded comments by some with probably not much experience on this subject, and not pertaining directly to the op. And the stories from those that have experience are entertaining! Do be so easily offended :)
Didn't fix that for ya.........cuz' I took your post exactly like it was intended, whether directed only to me or to a dozen other members. What you're saying then is that your's and the 'hall monitors' disparaging comments are more justifiable and totally acceptable and warranted if not targeted at only me? So, whether I take it personally or not, such negative comments aren't acceptable when directed at any member that is simply offering their opinions and taking the effort and time to do so.
Read your own post/words carefully once more (or more, if necessary). If you come up with anything other than you completely agreeing with 'Mr. Hall Monitors' feelings and then completely and fully supporting them in your subsequent post, you must truly assume that I and any other members having read your post are, at best, idiots.
I'd suggest that you reconsider that assumption.
Post by: mountainman on July 22, 2015, 10:17:43 AM
Post by: magnumb on July 22, 2015, 10:18:54 AM
Please! No more. Magnumb, your long winded wordy post and" stories" are about the most boring thing on this thread. Short and sweet, man. Are you some kind of professor or something? Hall monitors? ,WTF? You carry a pistol. I don't. Bully for you. Now please, stop beating us in the head with 20 paragraph post. No need to make yourself appear so intellectually superior to all us common folk. You like your pistol. We get it.
It's a tough concept for some, evidently it is for you. Don't read what you don't want to read.......pretty simple concept.....for most.
I write as I write. If my style appears as you describe, would you have me change that because you want me too.....? I would do that because.......?
If I asked you to be 'less common' and to now write as you've described me doing......are you going to either want to, feel obliged to or more importantly...... be able to......? Didn't think so.
I didn't think so, so why expect that of me......? You don't and never did. You just wanted to join in for your own reasons, which only you know......thankfully. We all have attributes, issues, desires and failings. Please don't try to include or attach me to any one of them.....thanks.
There's times when I can hardly understand or dicipher what some have written here and I doubt that I'm alone in that frustration. But I would never, ever be impolite, pretentious, discourteous nor thoughtless enough to post up such a post as you did. I would have never, under no circumstances whatsoever, felt it my place or right or whatever you obviously felt, to do so. I would either choose to fight on through the post or just to pass on it altogether. Again......how simple could it be?
What makes you feel that you are somehow more entitled to be less thoughtful, more impolite and judgemental, than I or anyone else...... ;). How's your elitest attitude, speaking of "making yourself look so intellectually superior to all us common folk", any different at all from the anti's that freely and adamantly state as you just did, that we don't have the right nor should we be able to CC or to even own a firearm....?
There is absolutely no difference.
If you think that continuing to promote the all too prevalent misconception that hunters are all idiots and slobs (your "common folk" reference), you do all of us an injustice and disservice. To then try to impinge on anothers right to express him or herself as they so desire, is both unacceptable and dangerous.....don't you think?
Post by: MountainWalk on July 22, 2015, 10:21:59 AM
Post by: quadrafire on July 22, 2015, 10:25:01 AM
To the Op...this is my current "poison"! A S&W 329 44mag. Loaded extra hard, wide meplate checked 300 grainers. Love its light,easily packed weight, and the rounds break bones and travel straight! Have stopped and finished many bear over the years with that load, so 100% confidence!That's the same rig I'm packing only with Garrett 310's. The bark of it I think will scare off most aggressors.
Post by: jkthomps on July 22, 2015, 10:35:52 AM
[/quote]
.....but in a self serving attempt to disparage all others that you feel obviously less experienced, not worthy of contributing their thoughts and knowledgable than yourself, you just happen to offer up the very clear inference that you have come face to face with a bear, survived and handily dispatched it with your XDS45, ala, your "I know from 1st hand experience.....". And this, your unsolicited 'Field and Stream' moment, just happens to be contained within the same exact sentence where you state, "I won't give my a story or my 'opinion' since the original question/post did not inquire....".
The "original question/post did not inquire" anything but "what's ur poison"....did it..? So why add the self serving and disparaging banter about others posts, especially when the OP's original question/post clearly did not ask for your opinion on the content of others posts...... :dunno:. It is more than evident that you feel others posts in this thread are totally useless and that you truly consider yourself the only qualified and worthy member/hunter that should be able to both determine and pass judgement on any and all others and their opinions. If this isn't an exact depiction of you and your attitude, where, in your post, is this not exactly what you did or reflect how you feel and view yourself....? You certainly think alot of yourself.
Being that you obviously very much coveted/embraced and now yearn to return to the 'hall monitor' status of your childhood, complaining about others having done exactly what you then quite intentionally and willingly did yourself, is quite understandable....unfortunately. Old habits die hard, especially when one feels somehow superior to all others. Why else would you feel it your right to be so disparaging of others? More importantly, why else would you then immediately do exactly the same thing that you just complained about in your banter filled post.......... :dunno:.
All your "hahahaha's...." and demeaning comments in your one post sold me on the determination of your 'hall monitor' personality as you seem to think that this is just a competition of some sort, just like we approached most things when we were just little, impulsive, smart ass'd kids.
Some grow up, others...............not so much.
[/quote]
Correction - XD45. I do not have an XDS45. You were close though, good job.
Post by: magnumb on July 22, 2015, 10:41:28 AM
[/quote]
On that, I stand corrected....... ;).
And....the rest....?
Post by: jkthomps on July 22, 2015, 10:50:41 AM
Correction - XD45. I do not have an XDS45. You were close though, good job.
On that, I stand corrected....... ;).
And....the rest....?
[/quote]
I enjoy your posts, so I have nothing negative to say towards you directly. You can think what you want of my "hahahahas" and assume what you will of me. I have fun and love the banter. One must admit, there is a lot of posts that have nothing to do with the OP's question. Including this one.
Cheers!
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 22, 2015, 10:56:50 AM
I don't carry a "sidearm" for black bear. I carry an additional weapon that I can legally hunt bears with. I hunt archery from September through November. Bear season is open for all of that. Why in God's name would I want an underpowered and under-length (barrel) pistol that can only be legally used in self defense to dispatch a bear?
Calibers .357 and .44 magnum because they are better at killing bears. If shot placement was all that mattered, I'd bring my Ruger Mk III .22lr
Post by: magnumb on July 22, 2015, 11:00:41 AM
Correction - XD45. I do not have an XDS45. You were close though, good job.
On that, I stand corrected....... ;).
And....the rest....?
I enjoy your posts, so I have nothing negative to say towards you directly. You can think what you want of my "hahahahas" and assume what you will of me. I have fun and love the banter. One must admit, there is a lot of posts that have nothing to do with the OP's question. Including this one.
Cheers!
[/quote]
You're right, but at the same time, it's also very obvious that the vast majority of members and their posts that don't have anything to do with the OP's post are not intentionally negative and disparaging towards other members. Including this one.
Cheers!
Post by: magnumb on July 22, 2015, 11:06:21 AM
Yes typically after 7-8 pages you can expect a thread to not be airtight and on topic. This is normal unless the topic is interesting :rolleyes:
I don't carry a "sidearm" for black bear. I carry an additional weapon that I can legally hunt bears with. I hunt archery from September through November. Bear season is open for all of that. Why in God's name would I want an underpowered and under-length (barrel) pistol that can only be legally used in self defense to dispatch a bear?
Calibers .357 and .44 magnum because they are better at killing bears. If shot placement was all that mattered, I'd bring my Ruger Mk III .22lr
Either one fits the bill for me, as well........stoked appropriately.
My bull barrel MKII is a tack driver and has dispatched many a small mammal....even a few larger one's.
Good luck this season!
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 22, 2015, 11:17:50 AM
Yes typically after 7-8 pages you can expect a thread to not be airtight and on topic. This is normal unless the topic is interesting :rolleyes:
I don't carry a "sidearm" for black bear. I carry an additional weapon that I can legally hunt bears with. I hunt archery from September through November. Bear season is open for all of that. Why in God's name would I want an underpowered and under-length (barrel) pistol that can only be legally used in self defense to dispatch a bear?
Calibers .357 and .44 magnum because they are better at killing bears. If shot placement was all that mattered, I'd bring my Ruger Mk III .22lr
Either one fits the bill for me, as well........stoked appropriately.
My bull barrel MKII is a tack driver and has dispatched many a small mammal....even a few larger one's.
Good luck this season!
Cheers! :chuckle:
Post by: jkthomps on July 22, 2015, 11:19:57 AM
Yes typically after 7-8 pages you can expect a thread to not be airtight and on topic. This is normal unless the topic is interesting :rolleyes:
I don't carry a "sidearm" for black bear. I carry an additional weapon that I can legally hunt bears with. I hunt archery from September through November. Bear season is open for all of that. Why in God's name would I want an underpowered and under-length (barrel) pistol that can only be legally used in self defense to dispatch a bear?
Calibers .357 and .44 magnum because they are better at killing bears. If shot placement was all that mattered, I'd bring my Ruger Mk III .22lr
:tup: I archery hunt as well and like your "additional legal weapon" concept. Mine sidearm is for crazy people, not bears. I am less worried about bears.
Had this little guy come visit. This is when I prefer bear spray or larger calibers.
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 22, 2015, 11:27:47 AM
I am not worried about bears either or else I wouldn't sleep in the woods as many nights a year as I do. People can be a concern but I've had more than a few curious bears at nights along with yowling cats.
All that said, I've hunted without a "sidearm" many times and never felt nekked
Post by: Igor on July 22, 2015, 11:27:57 AM
Yes typically after 7-8 pages you can expect a thread to not be airtight and on topic. This is normal unless the topic is interesting :rolleyes:
I don't carry a "sidearm" for black bear. I carry an additional weapon that I can legally hunt bears with. I hunt archery from September through November. Bear season is open for all of that. Why in God's name would I want an underpowered and under-length (barrel) pistol that can only be legally used in self defense to dispatch a bear?
Calibers .357 and .44 magnum because they are better at killing bears. If shot placement was all that mattered, I'd bring my Ruger Mk III .22lr
You forgot to include .45 Colt, which can do anything the .44 Rem. magnum can do. Must have just been an oversight.................
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 22, 2015, 11:30:14 AM
I could have included .460 S&W or a .500 but I don't own those. ;)
Post by: tgomez on July 22, 2015, 11:53:38 AM
To the Op...this is my current "poison"! A S&W 329 44mag. Loaded extra hard, wide meplate checked 300 grainers. Love its light,easily packed weight, and the rounds break bones and travel straight! Have stopped and finished many bear over the years with that load, so 100% confidence!Nice! Thats a nice piece my friend and a good looking holster to boot! :tup:
Post by: tgomez on July 22, 2015, 12:07:36 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 22, 2015, 12:20:58 PM
Shopping list for Hunt-Wa:
Thicker Skin
Post by: h20hunter on July 22, 2015, 12:29:44 PM
Post by: Curly on July 22, 2015, 01:19:14 PM
99.9% of the time I don't pack a handgun. When I do it is a .357 magnum. I did pack it in the Bob Marshall on an elk hunting trip where we saw grizzlies and plenty of griz tracks. I'm sure I was under gunned then even though I had my 300 winmag too.
Post by: Mr.T on July 23, 2015, 02:56:56 PM
Post by: mountainman on July 23, 2015, 04:14:31 PM
S&W 686 with 2 rounds of .38spl shot for snakes and 5 rounds of .357 bear loads. Don't like snakes when hunting bear/deer...one close call is all it took.:yeah:
Post by: GameHunter1959 on July 23, 2015, 04:28:34 PM
I have a 44 magnum that was given to me. I have never shot it, but given the predator population is rising; I am going to start carrying a side arm this year.
Post by: superdown on July 23, 2015, 05:14:19 PM
Can I carry a side arm while archery hunting in the state of Washington?Yes. They changed the law a few years back. :tup:
I have a 44 magnum that was given to me. I have never shot it, but given the predator population is rising; I am going to start carrying a side arm this year.
Post by: GameHunter1959 on July 23, 2015, 11:14:53 PM
Can I carry a side arm while archery hunting in the state of Washington?Yes. They changed the law a few years back. :tup:
I have a 44 magnum that was given to me. I have never shot it, but given the predator population is rising; I am going to start carrying a side arm this year.
Perfect...Thank you
Post by: follow maggie on July 24, 2015, 11:44:02 PM
Post by: KFhunter on July 25, 2015, 07:56:08 PM
200gr full power hard cast
Post by: Redridesbulls on July 27, 2015, 02:54:30 AM
Post by: 6.8mmARHunter on July 28, 2015, 12:32:16 AM
Post by: tgomez on July 28, 2015, 07:16:33 AM
Bigger is better, that what both my wife and girlfriend say.
So you carry a strap on? :chuckle: :dunno:
Post by: police women of America on July 28, 2015, 05:44:50 PM
Bigger is better, that what both my wife and girlfriend say.I think your not going to like that saying once your looking down your wife's .50 rifle when she finds out about your girlfriend :chuckle:
Post by: npaull on July 28, 2015, 06:14:14 PM
Quote
FWIW, black bear research shows that black bears do sneak attacks on humans as prey and in such cases always eat the victim. There will be no warning in such cases.
Do you have a source for this? Not trying to sound snarky or snide - I'm just interested.
(Well, I AM a teeny bit skeptical, but I'm happy to have my mind changed!).
Post by: NINEX19 on July 29, 2015, 09:48:38 AM
Well, might as well answer the original question. I always carry a .357 Magnum with 4.5" barrel whenever I go into the woods (especially while doing archery for deer).
My logic is, while I could carry a 9mm for self defense, why not carry a .357 Mag. for self defense when they both virtually weigh the same and take up the same amount of space and (IMHO) the .357 would be a superior choice between the two for any 2 or 4 legged encounters not resolved with other non-lethal means.
Post by: Okanagan on July 29, 2015, 10:19:30 AM
QuoteFWIW, black bear research shows that black bears do sneak attacks on humans as prey and in such cases always eat the victim. There will be no warning in such cases.
Do you have a source for this? Not trying to sound snarky or snide - I'm just interested.
(Well, I AM a teeny bit skeptical, but I'm happy to have my mind changed!).
Fair question. Dr. Stephen Herrero, BEAR ATTACKS (I think that is the name of the book I have in mind). Herrero is generally considered the world's foremost expert on bear attacks. Below is a link to a magazine article on the subject. Herrero's studies showed that black bear mothers with cubs and habituated black bears near lots of people are less likely to kill. He says to watch out for the sneaky wilderness black bear who is stalking you as food. The eight minute video linked in the article is superb on this topic.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html?_r=0
I believe it was Herrero's studies that changed bear defense instructions: play dead as a last resort with grizzlies and Kodiaks but never quit fighting a black bear. A grizzly may cuff you and leave, but if you play dead with a black bear it will almost certainly start eating you.
This info is kind of counter intuitive re black bears and grizzlies only because we know little about either species beyond popular assumptions and lore.
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 29, 2015, 10:36:04 AM
"Hmm...it's hard to play dead with this thing chewing on my hams. Alright tough it out - happy place - you can do it, he'll stop soon. Wait? Is this thing actually eating me? Perhaps I should reengage."
Post by: KFhunter on July 29, 2015, 11:35:45 AM
I didn't find the story but it sticks out in my mind as a possible sneak attack, we don't really know.
Quote
The husband of a 70-year-old grandmother who was killed by a bear in northern Quebec ...
Conservation experts set traps after Friday evening's attack, but ... the bear was still at large in the wilds of northern Quebec.
As she scouted a fishing hole for walleye, Ms. Lavoie became separated from her husband. Barely 10 minutes later, Mr. Lavoie felt something was amiss and went searching for his wife of 51 years. Metres away he came upon the nightmarish scene of her body being dragged into the forest by a bear.
Mr. Lavoie chased the predator for nearly 200 metres and managed very briefly to scare it away from his wife. He tried but was unable to carry her limp and bleeding body back through the dense spring foliage.
He left her and went for help. When he arrived with police, the bear had returned and was combative.
"The bear was still around and the bear was aggressive,"
The bear was so aggressive, police were forced to delay attempts to retrieve Ms. Lavoie's remains until early Saturday morning...
In 1991, a black bear killed a Toronto couple in Algonquin Park...
In 2001, a high-school student was attacked and partly eaten by a black bear 25 kilometres northeast of Yellowknife.
In 2007, a Calgary woman, who was cycling on a trail near a British Columbia resort, was stalked and killed by a black bear.
(Excerpt) Read more at theglobeandmail.com ...
Post by: KFhunter on July 29, 2015, 11:42:02 AM
I think any human even on standard hunting alertness level would have a tough time defending themselves before the bear was on them...21 foot rule for humans is about a 100 foot rule for 4 legged predators. You might be defending yourself from a horizontal position.
Post by: NINEX19 on July 29, 2015, 12:46:33 PM
Quote
He left her and went for help. When he arrived with police, the bear had returned and was combative.
"The bear was still around and the bear was aggressive,"
The bear was so aggressive, police were forced to delay attempts to retrieve Ms. Lavoie's remains until early Saturday morning...
This strikes me as odd in several ways (could be just the way it was reported though) and leaves alot of questions. OK, so there is a combative bear and obviously aggressive based on the attack on her. So the police return to the scene of a bear attack with a known body unarmed. ??? On top of that, they were "forced" to delay retrieval until the next day. What? Meanwhile they let the bear feast on her remains. What happened to the bear. Just let it go to attack another human?
I would assume the same thought process of killing an animal that attacks a human in the U.S. is the same as it is in Canada. Why did they not shoot on site?
Post by: Okanagan on July 29, 2015, 12:58:49 PM
QuoteHe left her and went for help. When he arrived with police, the bear had returned and was combative.
"The bear was still around and the bear was aggressive,"
The bear was so aggressive, police were forced to delay attempts to retrieve Ms. Lavoie's remains until early Saturday morning...
This strikes me as odd in several ways (could be just the way it was reported though) and leaves alot of questions. OK, so there is a combative bear and obviously aggressive based on the attack on her. So the police return to the scene of a bear attack with a known body unarmed. ??? On top of that, they were "forced" to delay retrieval until the next day. What? Meanwhile they let the bear feast on her remains. What happened to the bear. Just let it go to attack another human?
I would assume the same thought process of killing an animal that attacks a human in the U.S. is the same as it is in Canada. Why did they not shoot on site?
I'd chalk that up to ignorant newspaper writing. It's a glaring question but there's no solving it from here without talking to the cops on the scene. Maybe they had rules of engagement for bears!
Post by: NINEX19 on July 29, 2015, 01:15:30 PM
Quote
I'd chalk that up to ignorant newspaper writing. It's a glaring question but there's no solving it from here without talking to the cops on the scene. Maybe they had rules of engagement for bears!
I know. I was hoping someone had a bit of insight on Canadian "rules of engagement for bears". I thought all RCMPs were armed (though perhaps not with rifles sufficient for a bear) now. No date on the story, maybe they weren't back then.
Sorry for the thread drift.
Post by: dawei on July 29, 2015, 10:24:05 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi103.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm150%2Fdawei851%2FTaurus%2520Revolvers%2FTaurus425SS4left_zpsff6e7b06.jpg&hash=8db635bdb5c3c7b2e56cf3e8a972d9230527dc50) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/dawei851/media/Taurus%20Revolvers/Taurus425SS4left_zpsff6e7b06.jpg.html)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi103.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm150%2Fdawei851%2FTaurus%2520Revolvers%2FTRACKER41C_zps4e856c6c.jpg&hash=1e09537824a41d985ffbe908588ea60734404c55) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/dawei851/media/Taurus%20Revolvers/TRACKER41C_zps4e856c6c.jpg.html)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi103.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm150%2Fdawei851%2FTaurus%2520Revolvers%2FTRACKER41D_zpsf8442360.jpg&hash=5f76a6d76f964c742c1edcc2b9d6b1c1185242ac) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/dawei851/media/Taurus%20Revolvers/TRACKER41D_zpsf8442360.jpg.html)
Post by: KFhunter on July 30, 2015, 05:44:21 PM
Fan of those myself.
Post by: jkthomps on July 30, 2015, 10:18:21 PM
Post by: Bob33 on July 30, 2015, 10:24:00 PM
Okay, I have a question which might sound foolish, but I am curious. I was talking to a neighboring camper today and we were discussing this thread/post and he told me he takes a taser for black bear. I called BS after listening to him and he went to his camp on got his taser out to show me. I still think he was pulling my leg but I started to think about it and wondered if a taser would work. Could one even get through the fur to make contact to cause a shock or would this just piss a bear off? Anyone else hear of this? I told him I hope he can run fast if he ever had to use it on a bear... I am almost sure he was bsing me, but wth do I know lolBear spray is a far better option.
Post by: KFhunter on July 30, 2015, 10:37:56 PM
The taser is not reliable, not even against humans let alone in the brush shooting a bear
Post by: jkthomps on July 30, 2015, 10:45:04 PM
The taser with barbs that shoot out on wires could disable a bear provided the barbs don't get hung up on brush and penetrate the fur good enough to hit a muscle group and you get enough of a spread to disable a large muscle group and after the taser shuts off per regulation and the bear is still there and very scared and very upset then what?
Nice find! Good information and agreed, good read.
Post by: Turner89 on July 30, 2015, 10:48:50 PM
:yeah: im more worried about a cat though. All the time i've spent in the woods I only had 1 close call. A bear rushed me so fast that I had fell on my back expecting to get mauled. He was within arms reach when he ran back to his fawn. I had no weapon, and if I had, it wouldnt have mattered unless I already had it drawn prior........ maybe.Okay, I have a question which might sound foolish, but I am curious. I was talking to a neighboring camper today and we were discussing this thread/post and he told me he takes a taser for black bear. I called BS after listening to him and he went to his camp on got his taser out to show me. I still think he was pulling my leg but I started to think about it and wondered if a taser would work. Could one even get through the fur to make contact to cause a shock or would this just piss a bear off? Anyone else hear of this? I told him I hope he can run fast if he ever had to use it on a bear... I am almost sure he was bsing me, but wth do I know lolBear spray is a far better option.
I bought bear spray, and wore that for awhile. Eventually I went back to my careless ways, and only pack a gun when hunting. I just like to go as lite as possible in the woods.
Post by: KFhunter on July 30, 2015, 10:49:37 PM
Post by: Okanagan on July 31, 2015, 08:20:17 AM
Dr. Herrero said that the data was surprising, I think especially regarding kills by sows with cubs. Few people have seen the sneaky predatory behavior of a black bear toward a human because it is very rare, though the most dangerous.
I've had a number of sows with cubs threaten me, etc. but only two silent stalkers. One of them I killed, a youngish boar which fits the pattern. The other shadowed me silently and furtively for several hundred yards as I walked back to my pick-up, getting closer to me all of the time. I got a few glimpses of it only because once I saw it I was wary of it and looking intently for it. I didn't have a firearm yet to this day feel like that bear should have been killed.
Here is a more direct link to Dr. Herrero's 8 minute video. The first 3 minutes has the most concentrated info on black bear attacks. Predatory bears are the most dangerous.
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 31, 2015, 08:26:06 AM
BOTH barbs have to penetrate the bear, if one's stuck in a branch and the other in the bear nothing happens
I wouldn't say that. At that range and with that increased pain/confusion - SOMETHING is going to happen :chuckle:
Post by: magnumb on August 01, 2015, 06:05:34 PM
BOTH barbs have to penetrate the bear, if one's stuck in a branch and the other in the bear nothing happens
I wouldn't say that. At that range and with that increased pain/confusion - SOMETHING is going to happen :chuckle:
:yeah:...........and as has been mentioned, even on humans, they are far less than 100% effective in totally controling the situation. If a bear reacts quickly enough and bites at their wound as many do or rubs/rolls around quickly enough, he/she will dislodge what barbs might have gotten through it's thick fur.
Nooooooooooooooo.......there's a reason 'shock' wasn't asked to join in on the '3 S's'...... ;). If it had, it would be 'Shock, S#@* and Sprint (as best one can with a pantload).
Use a 'big enough gun', as they say, and leave the trial and error of killing (or even deterring, in this case) something via electrocution to the States where most can't even put down a much more fragile human effectively nor humanely.
Post by: JJB11B on August 01, 2015, 06:17:32 PM
Post by: NSAECHIN on August 04, 2015, 06:46:57 AM
Post by: RadSav on August 04, 2015, 07:22:24 AM
My sidearm is a Glock 20 10mm. 15+1 rounds loaded with DoubleTap 230gr hard cast ammunition.
How many of those rounds have you put through that gun? Any feed issues?
Post by: NSAECHIN on August 04, 2015, 02:03:44 PM
My sidearm is a Glock 20 10mm. 15+1 rounds loaded with DoubleTap 230gr hard cast ammunition.
How many of those rounds have you put through that gun? Any feed issues?
25 rounds. no feed issues
Post by: splitshot on August 04, 2015, 05:40:24 PM
Post by: RadSav on August 04, 2015, 06:13:17 PM
My sidearm is a Glock 20 10mm. 15+1 rounds loaded with DoubleTap 230gr hard cast ammunition.
How many of those rounds have you put through that gun? Any feed issues?
25 rounds. no feed issues
Thanx
Post by: pd on August 04, 2015, 07:37:00 PM
For bow hunting in Idaho last year (in an area not particularly known for grizzlies), I carried my XD 4" in S&W.40. It is comfortable on the hip, a bit heavy, but it is what I have.
I also have (but don't typically carry) an original Dan Wesson 15-2 in .357 Magnum. I repurposed the gun from a service revolver (2.5" barrel) to a hunting revolver (6" barrel). I don't have the original 2.5" barrel anymore.
For bow hunting in SW Washington, I will carry the XD on my hip. I really doubt I will have need to use it (but better safe than sorry). For Idaho (elk hunting, with a bow), I will be going to a different area, with a bit more of a grizzly presence (but still not that high of a risk).
For those of you who have already weighed in, what would you recommend? I am not going to purchase anything else, so my choice is the XD or the Dan Wesson. I could purchase hard cast bullets for the Dan Wesson. The 6" barrel is a bit long for comfort carry. Hmmmm. What to do?
Post by: tgomez on August 04, 2015, 10:10:11 PM
Post by: splitshot on August 05, 2015, 12:26:51 PM
Post by: jasnt on August 05, 2015, 02:10:38 PM
a picture is worth a 1000 words so have more pics and less baloney. people should be fined for repeating themselves and using misspelled words. lol and limit the number of responses per thread. mike wya let's police everything till the site is not fun any more :sarcasm:
If we did that the Bigfoot thread could sponsor this site lol
Nice shooting tgomez. Now let's see a group shot at 25' while someone is yelling at you nonstop to hurry up and poke fun at all the shots. Good way to practice for those high stress situations when time isn't on your side and attack is certain :tup:
Post by: Duckslayer89 on August 05, 2015, 02:24:25 PM
Post by: JJB11B on August 05, 2015, 02:27:46 PM
I also had a Glock 20, I put approximately 500 rounds through it before some financial issues forced me to sell it. I never once had a feed issue. I love Glocks.My sidearm is a Glock 20 10mm. 15+1 rounds loaded with DoubleTap 230gr hard cast ammunition.
How many of those rounds have you put through that gun? Any feed issues?
Post by: buglebrush on August 05, 2015, 02:41:46 PM
This has been a really informative thread (and, entertaining, too). It has forced me to rethink my own strategies.
For bow hunting in Idaho last year (in an area not particularly known for grizzlies), I carried my XD 4" in S&W.40. It is comfortable on the hip, a bit heavy, but it is what I have.
I also have (but don't typically carry) an original Dan Wesson 15-2 in .357 Magnum. I repurposed the gun from a service revolver (2.5" barrel) to a hunting revolver (6" barrel). I don't have the original 2.5" barrel anymore.
For bow hunting in SW Washington, I will carry the XD on my hip. I really doubt I will have need to use it (but better safe than sorry). For Idaho (elk hunting, with a bow), I will be going to a different area, with a bit more of a grizzly presence (but still not that high of a risk).
For those of you who have already weighed in, what would you recommend? I am not going to purchase anything else, so my choice is the XD or the Dan Wesson. I could purchase hard cast bullets for the Dan Wesson. The 6" barrel is a bit long for comfort carry. Hmmmm. What to do?
Pro's and con's. I usually end up with the comfortable carry vs. firepower. However, I am more likely to pack my .44 if I am going Solo.
Post by: magnumb on August 06, 2015, 10:13:09 PM
I also had a Glock 20, I put approximately 500 rounds through it before some financial issues forced me to sell it. I never once had a feed issue. I love Glocks.My sidearm is a Glock 20 10mm. 15+1 rounds loaded with DoubleTap 230gr hard cast ammunition.
How many of those rounds have you put through that gun? Any feed issues?
:yeah:.......in spades!
Post by: jasnt on August 09, 2015, 08:31:25 PM
http://m.billingsgazette.com/news/local/dead-hiker-was-attacked-consumed-by-grizzly-bear/article_a35e37f9-d190-5b5b-af18-cf0daabc75d1.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=curated&utm_content=BGOdonnell&mobile_touch=true
Post by: Jonnyjammer on August 09, 2015, 09:50:14 PM
Post by: Dan-o on August 09, 2015, 09:54:32 PM
I also had a Glock 20, I put approximately 500 rounds through it before some financial issues forced me to sell it. I never once had a feed issue. I love Glocks.My sidearm is a Glock 20 10mm. 15+1 rounds loaded with DoubleTap 230gr hard cast ammunition.
How many of those rounds have you put through that gun? Any feed issues?
My Glock 20 eats anything I've tried and has never jammed.
Mine is a Gen 3......... I was unaware of any issues until reading this thread.
Rather than threadjack, can someone point me to a good Glock 20 Tutorial to learn differences between Gen 3/4?
Post by: Natas5150 on August 10, 2015, 03:16:11 PM
Post by: KFhunter on August 10, 2015, 03:23:06 PM
Post by: tgomez on August 10, 2015, 09:52:59 PM
Personally....at 40 yards I would be high ready but probably not yet shooting, the odds are still very good it's a mock charge.Exactly, at 40 yards Im shooting the bear square in the chest with my 30-06, the 9 is staying in the holster. Bear spray over a 9mm or .45 and we make you laugh? :dunno: Not following your logic here, and I could care less if I injure a bear if he's trying to kill me. :chuckle: That's what your suppose to do, SURVIVE!!!!!!! You better not give anymore advice, you over think more than Pete Carroll on the goal line! :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: jasnt on August 11, 2015, 05:58:43 AM
Personally....at 40 yards I would be high ready but probably not yet shooting, the odds are still very good it's a mock charge.:yeah: spray and pray is always a bad idea! Like I said earlier practice under high stress conditions. I've been mock charged by quite a few critters( moose, angus and Hereford and cross bulls ect.) and out right charged by a few as well including a wounded cougar. A lot of times standing your ground will stop the charge but ya got to be ready for it to not stop too. After a while ya learn to ignore the panic and focus on what ya need to do. I'll take my 9 over bear spray any day! 9mm ammo can't catch the wind and come back in my face
Post by: Natas5150 on August 11, 2015, 07:04:02 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 11, 2015, 07:07:30 AM
Personally....at 40 yards I would be high ready but probably not yet shooting, the odds are still very good it's a mock charge.
40 yards is way too far out for me to be shooting (self defense)...I'm ready and trained on the target though :yike:
Post by: NSAECHIN on August 11, 2015, 07:14:38 AM
I also had a Glock 20, I put approximately 500 rounds through it before some financial issues forced me to sell it. I never once had a feed issue. I love Glocks.My sidearm is a Glock 20 10mm. 15+1 rounds loaded with DoubleTap 230gr hard cast ammunition.
How many of those rounds have you put through that gun? Any feed issues?
My Glock 20 eats anything I've tried and has never jammed.
Mine is a Gen 3......... I was unaware of any issues until reading this thread.
Rather than threadjack, can someone point me to a good Glock 20 Tutorial to learn differences between Gen 3/4?
I think some differences are the mag release button on the Gen 4's are larger then the Gen 3's and its ambidextrous. With Gen 4's you also have interchangeable back straps and Gen 4's has a dual spring guide rods. I am sure there is more but that's the biggest differences I believe. I love Glocks
Here are some links for you.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 11, 2015, 08:22:04 AM
Post by: superdown on August 11, 2015, 08:53:23 AM
Post by: KFhunter on August 13, 2015, 05:28:37 PM
For instance I never once mentioned bear spray nor did I say a 9mm was too small, nor did I "laugh" at anyone.
For self defense you use what you have available, if it's a 9mm then use it.
Post by: mountainman on August 13, 2015, 10:52:15 PM
Personally....at 40 yards I would be high ready but probably not yet shooting, the odds are still very good it's a mock charge.
40 yards is way too far out for me to be shooting (self defense)...I'm ready and trained on the target though :yike:
Here's a couple that came in fast with angry thoughts on their mind..blonde was stopped at appx. 15 paces with a 444 Marlin. Total charge, first seen to a dead bear maybe 5 seconds??
Second bear at 3 paces with a 30-30, maybe 3 seconds??
Not a lot of reaction time..
Post by: RadSav on August 14, 2015, 12:34:43 AM
blonde was stopped at appx. 15 paces with a 444 Marlin. Total charge, first seen to a dead bear maybe 5 seconds??
Is that a 24" 444? Sure looks longer than a 22" :dunno:
Post by: 4fletch on August 14, 2015, 01:03:45 AM
Post by: mountainman on August 14, 2015, 03:43:33 AM
Post by: tgomez on August 14, 2015, 07:34:50 AM