Sidearm for Black Bear.

[MountainWalk]

In a situation where there is a large animal actively trying to maul you, with a pistol, I'd be worried bout shooting myself. Ernest Hemingway shot himself once in each leg while having a tussle with a shark on the deck of his boat. He wasn't exactly New to guns, danger, combat.  I HAVE an old vhs video of guys hunting leopard with dogs. They went to" retrieve"  their trophy from some rocks. Old boy had a colt Saa.  That cat come roiling out of them rocks and was on top of old boy in less than a heartbeat. He shot himself in the foot. Owwie.   If he(the bear) ain't ON you yet, seems your better off with a rifle. At least a rifle can be used as a club, or to keep em  off your throat.         Dang Autocorrect.

[bearpaw]

All the close quarter calls while guiding were created intentionally in an effort to recover a clients animal.  ALL were wounded previously by poor shots or poor bullet performance.  ALL could have easily been avoidable.  The only time I used a sidearm was because of the density of brush making it easier than the rifles we carried.

In Canada we've actually tried to initiate a charge from black bear boars.  I've always wanted to shoot a bear inside 10 yards on a charge as if elephant hunting.  Of the dozen or so bear we have been able to encourage to charge not one of them would commit to coming closer than ten yards.  Many came back time after time, but each chickened out before reaching the shoot zone.  Has been exciting, but nothing that would make a guy wet himself.

One case in Canada we had a sow with twin cubs use us as a shield for a boar intent on having cub sandwiches for lunch.  The sow was as close as 5 yards behind us as we faced off with the boar.  He charged more than 15 times!  Had he been a different color I would likely have killed him on a few of those charges in to about 12 yards as I had only a bow that day (friend/guide had 308 Win).  But not being the color I was after we stood our ground until he gave up and moved on.  That sow was pretty darn smart.  Though I'm sure she was not happy we didn't kill that bad boy.  One of my favorite hunts ever, but still no real danger presented itself.

I was attacked by a bear a few years ago.  He put all 15-20 pounds of his might into my boot as I tried to kick him away.  I think he even left a bruise on my ankle

Most guys that get all worked up and spout off about how you must have a sidearm to protect yourself when bear hunting can be written off as not having much experience with bear.  We do have a couple members here that have had encounters that seem legitimate and too close not to react.  So it can happen for sure.  I'm just not going to work myself into a panic if I don't have a gun at my side while in bear country or even while bear hunting.  I do make sure I fasten my seatbelt on the drive up there, though

When I do carry it's usually a 45 or a 10mm.  The .444 Trapper was even better.  Wish I still had that gun!

Good comments!

We have killed hundreds of bear over the years and I've never seen an unprovoked attack. The times bear seemingly charged, for the most part they were trying to take an escape route, they love to pop their teeth and bluff charge if you get too close, especially when you climb up a tree they are in, but I've never seen one finish the charge and attack.

One time years ago I had chased a bear all day and figured the hounds finally caught the bear about 3 pm but had trouble finding them, I could hear them at times and then they would disappear, I had a suspicion they were in a hole and sure enough I finally found them with a bear cornered in a cave. We caught some of the dogs and leashed them outside the cave but three of them were face to face with the bear 40 feet in at the end of the cave and wouldn't come out. As soon as you get to the dogs they get bolder, I was afraid they were going to get hurt so I found a long stick, put a rope noose on the end, taped a AA light to my 44 pistol barrel and crawled in feet first to save my dogs. It was pretty tight, I couldn't sit up or crawl on my knees, I scooted on my butt and back with my feet first, figured it would be better if the feet got chewed on than my head. I got within about 10-12 feet and tried to get a noose on one of the dogs to pull him back, no luck. The bear was tucked to the right swatting and biting at the dogs, finally I put the long limb between the dogs and bear and started forcing the dogs away from the bear. I'm not sure what happened but there was a big blowup and suddenly I had the bear's head right between my two feet. I tried to pull the hammer back quickly and shoot but the pistol went click, click, click! Looking back I know what happened! I was so excited I didn't pull the hammer all the way back, it wasn't rotating the cylinder to the loaded rounds. I always carry my revolver with no round under the hammer. I'm actually glad it didn't go off in that tight little cave! 

I realized the dogs were biting the bear on the back end and that bear wanted out but he hadn't bit me yet, it seemed like he just wanted out and he didn't want to walk on me. I quickly scooted as tight to the side of the cave as possible, I covered my head and neck with my arms as the bear managed to scoot and rub past me with the dogs right behind him. I hollered at everyone outside "He's coming out! They later told me I sounded like a woman screaming! 

The bear exited the hole and the hunter missed the bear 3 times as he ran off and out of sight. I came out and could have jumped 6 feet in the air, I've never had that kind of adrenaline rush in my life, wow was that exciting!

I released the other dogs in hopes that they would catch the bear again, but that bear would never stop more than a few minutes in one spot and then would run again. Finally about midnight I started getting my dogs back as they gave up. The point of the story is that the bear had every chance to bite me and never did! It's really rare that a bear will attack but it does happen on rare occasion so like everyone else, I think it's wise for someone to carry protection when in bear country.

With that said I should also mention that I've seen epic failures regarding bullet performance, bullet placement, and hunter/gun capability. In my opinion 90% of hunters carrying a pistol are not very good marksmen with their own pistol, myself included. After seeing hundreds of bear shot with most any imaginable caliber in all types of situations, if I had to carry anything less than a 357 Mag, it would be a 22 mag since they get fair penetration, enough to kill a bear with a head shot or maybe a yearling with a chest shot. Most of the short pistol cartridges designed for human defense are a waste of space when it comes to killing a bear. They make noise that might scare a bear away, but they can't penetrate well enough to kill a bear unless you happen to hit an eyehole or something like that! If you put a bullet from a small pistol in the spine it might do enough damage to the spine you might put a bear down so you could get away but an eye or spine is a pretty tough target on an attacking bear! My advice, if you really want to carry bear protection, carry a pistol with at least as much energy as a 357 magnum!

No, not .38's in a 357, I've seen that fail, IMHO you want 357 or larger pistol ammo! If you only own a minimal caliber, carry it, maybe the noise will be enough deterrent! 

[tgomez]

Listen, if you see me in a fight with a bear don't help me help the bear!

[JimmyHoffa]

Listen, if you see me in a fight with a bear don't help me help the bear!

to keep and arm bears!

[magnumb]

Incredible story Bearpaw..........and very well written!  I enjoyed that very much!

I spent time down a few holes is SEA with a rope tied to me, a flashlight and a .45 in hand.  Seems we both enjoyed that experience about as much as one possibly could...... .

I agree with both your chances of actually being mauled and your minimal choice of handgun/cartridge using a .357 with full house .357 loads, in fact, an earlier post of mine did state exactly that. 

A guide friend in MT. (ex-Marine, Nam vet, as well), put 5 rounds of .41 Rem Mag into a client wounded charging blackie and none penetrated deep enough to do any harm except the 5th one.  He placed the 5th into the temple area of that bear at PBR as it headed for his client just to his left and that bullet did enough damage to stop that bear.

All 5 bullets were recovered, all perfectly mushroomed Hornady XTP's, that were so perfectly mushroomed as to be magazine worthy.  So, not only should you choose 'enough gun', but the proper pills, as well.

Thanks again for the excellent read.... .

[JJB11B]

 While I am no expert nor have I ever had a close call with a 4 legged predator one thing I consider with defense carry while hunting is penetration. Even when I am carrying my .357 I refrain from running a hollow point. I will trade energy for penetration 100% of the time when my suspected threat has a very thick hide and dense bone structure. I want that bullet to punch through the "armor" and get to the important plumbing or wiring on that critter. But that is my own unproven theory, makes sense in my head.

[bearpaw]

While I am no expert nor have I ever had a close call with a 4 legged predator one thing I consider with defense carry while hunting is penetration. Even when I am carrying my .357 I refrain from running a hollow point. I will trade energy for penetration 100% of the time when my suspected threat has a very thick hide and dense bone structure. I want that bullet to punch through the "armor" and get to the important plumbing or wiring on that critter. But that is my own unproven theory, makes sense in my head.

Totally agree on the HP's for bear, I think you are right on target with your penetration theory! 

Incredible story Bearpaw..........and very well written!  I enjoyed that very much!

I spent time down a few holes is SEA with a rope tied to me, a flashlight and a .45 in hand.  Seems we both enjoyed that experience about as much as one possibly could...... .

I agree with both your chances of actually being mauled and your minimal choice of handgun/cartridge using a .357 with full house .357 loads, in fact, an earlier post of mine did state exactly that. 

A guide friend in MT. (ex-Marine, Nam vet, as well), put 5 rounds of .41 Rem Mag into a client wounded charging blackie and none penetrated deep enough to do any harm except the 5th one.  He placed the 5th into the temple area of that bear at PBR as it headed for his client just to his left and that bullet did enough damage to stop that bear.

All 5 bullets were recovered, all perfectly mushroomed Hornady XTP's, that were so perfectly mushroomed as to be magazine worthy.  So, not only should you choose 'enough gun', but the proper pills, as well.

Thanks again for the excellent read.... .

Bigger bear especially need larger guns due to the penetration needed to get to the vitals. Just like you, I've also seen big bear take 41 or 44 pistol rounds with little effect, upon later examination the bullets simply were not getting to the vitals. 

[magnumb]

Exactly the reason why I handload my 629 with the 300gr. WFNHCGC Beartooth Bullets to their capacity....... .

If hollow points are designed to expand when encountering human tissue/apparrel, a bears coat and big boned body will no doubt pose a much tougher task.  Use loads, handloads or commercial, that will penetrate deeply and break everything that bullet comes in contact with.

With the huge selection of calibers out there, specifically handgun calibers, there are certainly many more less capable of meeting 'bear' criteria as opposed to those that have a much better chance of seeing you through to another day.

Choose both the caliber and pill that best offers you that opportunity......

[Bofire]

  I have seen a wounded Black bear killed with a 9 mm glock at about 10 feet one shot, I have seen a black bear killed with a 357, 158 grain HP at about 2 feet, one shot, I have seen a black bear shot in the neck 3 times with a 44 mag, 240 grain solid point winchester load, the bullets penetrated about 3 inches and stopped. the bear had to be killed with a 30-06.
There is a lot to know about guns, loads and bears.
Carl

[MountainWalk]

Good shots with good bullets from a "good" aimed rifle should preclude 99% of all bear gunfights, mostly concerning spot stalk and bait hunters, although bait hunters really have no excuse for bad shots.

 

[Igor]

While I am no expert nor have I ever had a close call with a 4 legged predator one thing I consider with defense carry while hunting is penetration. Even when I am carrying my .357 I refrain from running a hollow point. I will trade energy for penetration 100% of the time when my suspected threat has a very thick hide and dense bone structure. I want that bullet to punch through the "armor" and get to the important plumbing or wiring on that critter. But that is my own unproven theory, makes sense in my head.

Penetration is paramount, and that will not happen with hollow points.  I carry a S&W Mountain Gun in .45 Colt.  I use Double Tap ammo which is designed for maximum penetration; a cast bullet with a large meplat (frontal area).  IMO the .45 Colt is the minimum caliber I would expect to do the job on a black bear.

When I am in the woods scouting, without my rifle, or just hiking, my Mountain Gun is always with me.

[nastybynature]

While I am no expert nor have I ever had a close call with a 4 legged predator one thing I consider with defense carry while hunting is penetration. Even when I am carrying my .357 I refrain from running a hollow point. I will trade energy for penetration 100% of the time when my suspected threat has a very thick hide and dense bone structure. I want that bullet to punch through the "armor" and get to the important plumbing or wiring on that critter. But that is my own unproven theory, makes sense in my head.

Agreed! That is why when reduced to carrying my .380, for concealment purposes and defensive use on the 2 legged type species, I only use FMJ loads. No hollow points just in case they have a leather jacket or something else on that can effect penetration. I hardly ever take that one out of the safe though, except for target practice of course.

[magnumb]

While I am no expert nor have I ever had a close call with a 4 legged predator one thing I consider with defense carry while hunting is penetration. Even when I am carrying my .357 I refrain from running a hollow point. I will trade energy for penetration 100% of the time when my suspected threat has a very thick hide and dense bone structure. I want that bullet to punch through the "armor" and get to the important plumbing or wiring on that critter. But that is my own unproven theory, makes sense in my head.

Agreed! That is why when reduced to carrying my .380, for concealment purposes and defensive use on the 2 legged type species, I only use FMJ loads. No hollow points just in case they have a leather jacket or something else on that can effect penetration. I hardly ever take that one out of the safe though, except for target practice of course.

I totally agree with you both...... .

From .380 on down, no HP's for me under any circumstance.

[magnumb]

Let's try this scenario and this scenario only as this is as 'pure' a fair scenario as I could quickly come up with.  Adding superfulous 'if's' and/or 'but's' will only complicate or skew what should be your immediate and most honest answer.  The scenario is fair, both loads embody the best 'woods' load possible and your choice is your own, as well as your reasoning for your choice.
__________________________________________________________________

You sleep in a bit longer at your mountain cabin and your wife, young daughter, son and dog are already up and about, letting you get a bit more shut eye.

You're immediately awakened by loud screams and barking, unlike you've ever heard before.  In that mix of sounds, you hear the distinct and unique growls and gutteral sounds that could only come from an enraged bear.  You immediately jump out of your bunk knowing what you will see not 10 feet from your cabin door.  You are a very sensible individual that others consider to be both woods savvy and  always quite dependable.  However, not in your entire life did you ever think that something this horrific could happen to either you or yours.

Upon throwing the door open, your nightmare becomes a reality when you see a large blackie boar standing over your daughter with her thigh in his mouth as he tries repeatedly to tear her thigh and attached leg from the rest of her small body with his steel trap jaws and his powerful and relentless head shakes.

You immediately turn to the kitchen table, both handguns are the same distance from you and you grab one of the 2 available guns and immediately head out the door to confront this horrific event that is unfolding not 10 feet in front of you.  Your daughters life is most likely now completely in your hands.....quite literally.

On the kitchen table was both a .9mm pistol and a .44mag revolver right next to one another, both fully loaded (the .9mm with the most penetrating, 'heavy for' bullets available and the .44mag is loaded with 300gr. hard cast, flat nosed bullets....both loaded to their max potential).

You are a proficient and experienced handgunner with many different handguns and no matter the caliber and format/brand of the gun, you've shown to be very able to put any handgun into action quickly and effectively.

Which handgun did you choose.....?  Why.....?

[tgomez]

Obviously you would choose the 44. Mag. Bigger bullet, more stopping power, as it will leave a larger hole equaling more blood loss. Id grab and shoot both JOHN McCLAIN style