Post by: trophyhunt on March 22, 2017, 08:19:14 AM
Post by: jackelope on March 22, 2017, 08:39:00 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 22, 2017, 08:51:28 AM
Post by: jackmaster on March 22, 2017, 08:56:35 AM
Post by: Skillet on March 22, 2017, 08:58:01 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 22, 2017, 09:01:02 AM
I voted NO , if people can't deal with open sights then they shouldn't be huntn with a primative weapon!! Of course I don't think compound bows should be legal either !!:yeah:
I take non-magnifying would include the fancy bullet drop compensators and such, so people would lob bullets to four hundo on elk.
Post by: PolarBear on March 22, 2017, 09:09:59 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 22, 2017, 09:17:51 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on March 22, 2017, 09:21:24 AM
Nope. The constant tech creep in these "primitive weapons seasons" is one of my biggest gripes.I agree with this in principle...I hate the escalating arms race and range extensions of all weapon types.
But, I voted yes for non-magnifying scopes because I hate open sights! :dunno:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 22, 2017, 09:21:40 AM
So let me understand this better, it's ok for archery and rifle equipment to have a steady increase in technology but one weapon group can't?Just because it is happening in other groups doesn't mean everyone thinks it's ok.
Post by: jrebel on March 22, 2017, 09:29:31 AM
Post by: Skillet on March 22, 2017, 09:31:43 AM
So let me understand this better, it's ok for archery and rifle equipment to have a steady increase in technology but one weapon group can't?
Modern rifle, I have no problem with the arms race happening. It's "modern." I don't agree with any of the recent archery improvements like nocks and expanding heads (but haven't held an archery tag for umpteen years).
I also think inlines don't follow the intended spirit of the season. Neither do sabots. Wish they'd do away with both of those as well.
Post by: jrebel on March 22, 2017, 09:36:20 AM
So let me understand this better, it's ok for archery and rifle equipment to have a steady increase in technology but one weapon group can't?
Modern rifle, I have no problem with the arms race happening. It's "modern." I don't agree with any of the recent archery improvements like nocks and expanding heads (but haven't held an archery tag for umpteen years).
I also think inlines don't follow the intended spirit of the season. Neither do sabots. Wish they'd do away with both of those as well.
Just playing devils advocate....should archers and muzzleloader hunters hunt in loin cloth too. Some advances are good and make for more ethical kills in my opinion.
Post by: trophyhunt on March 22, 2017, 09:36:30 AM
Your probably right, but it is happening, why not throw a bread crumb to the muzzy group? I just don't think it's going to take success rates through the roof, lots of elements are still in play when it comes to muzzy.So let me understand this better, it's ok for archery and rifle equipment to have a steady increase in technology but one weapon group can't?Just because it is happening in other groups doesn't mean everyone thinks it's ok.
Post by: jackmaster on March 22, 2017, 09:42:00 AM
i am for better seasons, or longer, and more units to hunt inYour probably right, but it is happening, why not throw a bread crumb to the muzzy group? I just don't think it's going to take success rates through the roof, lots of elements are still in play when it comes to muzzy.So let me understand this better, it's ok for archery and rifle equipment to have a steady increase in technology but one weapon group can't?Just because it is happening in other groups doesn't mean everyone thinks it's ok.
Post by: CP on March 22, 2017, 09:50:02 AM
Post by: syoungs on March 22, 2017, 09:51:01 AM
It's not like you would be forced to use one, but the option would be nice,especially for the older generation that could really benefit from it. I don't think the harvest rate will skyrocket, I do think lost/wounded animals will decrease.
And like was said before, still an open breach, still a single shot, still lots of room for error. I would like to see a caveat along the lines of simple reticle only, no because or something, cause yeah, some jackwads will love stuff way down range that have no reason doing it (just like what happens with modern firearms)
Post by: Skillet on March 22, 2017, 09:51:36 AM
So let me understand this better, it's ok for archery and rifle equipment to have a steady increase in technology but one weapon group can't?
Modern rifle, I have no problem with the arms race happening. It's "modern." I don't agree with any of the recent archery improvements like nocks and expanding heads (but haven't held an archery tag for umpteen years).
I also think inlines don't follow the intended spirit of the season. Neither do sabots. Wish they'd do away with both of those as well.
Just playing devils advocate....should archers and muzzleloader hunters hunt in loin cloth too. Some advances are good and make for more ethical kills in my opinion.
I wondered how long it would take for somebody to take my point to the extreme... :chuckle:
I believe the primitive weapons should be defined by the spirit in which the seasons created for them intended. That means weapons should be restricted to the technology available and accepted for that weapon when the seasons were created. Ethical kills come from experience, skill and good decision making. Not equipment. I have made poor decisions in the heat of the moment, and would probably made good use of glass on my Hawken to gather light to ensure a clean kill. But my poor decision making in that instance was the problem, not a lack of glass on my primitive weapon.
I will allow for improvements in human safety, such as pyrodex over goex. But beyond a human safety improvement standpoint, the weapons' technology allowed in primitive weapons seasons should be free from the relentless pressure of marketing from outdoors equipment manufacturers.
Post by: Bob33 on March 22, 2017, 10:03:56 AM
Increases in harvest will more than likely result in decreases in hunting season lengths or dates.
Post by: jackelope on March 22, 2017, 10:10:45 AM
So let me understand this better, it's ok for archery and rifle equipment to have a steady increase in technology but one weapon group can't?
If you call lighted nocks a technology advantage, I'm not sure what to tell you. I'm of the opinion that mechanical broadheads are a disadvantage as they don't seem to be as durable as fixed blades.
The bread crumbs the muzzy guys get are ... season dates, deer and elk overlap, modern inlines, sabots....there are probably more.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 22, 2017, 10:15:56 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 22, 2017, 10:16:11 AM
Post by: Woodchuck on March 22, 2017, 10:17:08 AM
I voted no. It's supposed to be a primitive season.:yeah:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 22, 2017, 10:17:39 AM
Post by: jackelope on March 22, 2017, 10:50:14 AM
If we bring the lighted nock to the discussion I would be ok with allowing tracer bullets during muzzy season. :chuckle:
I started typing that then stopped.
:chuckle:
That would be amazing though.......I'm picturing a slo-mo video of a giant cloud of smoke with a .50 cal tracer flying out of it.
Post by: fishngamereaper on March 22, 2017, 10:55:42 AM
If we bring the lighted nock to the discussion I would be ok with allowing tracer bullets during muzzy season. :chuckle:
I started typing that then stopped.
:chuckle:
That would be amazing though.......I'm picturing a slo-mo video of a giant cloud of smoke with a .50 cal tracer flying out of it.
Then the seasons would move to Dec so you don't start forest fires with 50 cal flame throwers.
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on March 22, 2017, 10:57:46 AM
Post by: elevenpt1 on March 22, 2017, 11:26:47 AM
Post by: huntnphool on March 22, 2017, 11:40:57 AM
I am for lighted nocks but not this. :twocents:
Post by: CP on March 22, 2017, 11:44:01 AM
Bows should only be made of wood, no lighted nocks, no fiber optic pins, no cams, animal gut strings only, …
How long until someone sticks a magnifier on one?
Post by: huntnphool on March 22, 2017, 11:50:28 AM
Archery is a “primitive” hunt as well.
Bows should only be made of wood, no lighted nocks, no fiber optic pins, no cams, animal gut strings only, …
You forgot no broadheads.
Post by: CP on March 22, 2017, 11:52:10 AM
Archery is a “primitive” hunt as well.
Bows should only be made of wood, no lighted nocks, no fiber optic pins, no cams, animal gut strings only, …
You forgot no broadheads.
Nice catch - stone points only ..
Post by: huntnphool on March 22, 2017, 11:54:18 AM
Archery is a “primitive” hunt as well.
Bows should only be made of wood, no lighted nocks, no fiber optic pins, no cams, animal gut strings only, …
You forgot no broadheads.
Nice catch - stone points only ..
Can you imagine grinding them to get the perfect 6gr per pound of pull? :chuckle:
Post by: CP on March 22, 2017, 11:57:58 AM
Post by: Dan-o on March 22, 2017, 12:28:24 PM
My eyes are starting to fail and I can no longer focus on a front sight, a rear sight and a target
Selfish reason, but that's why I vote yes.
Post by: trophyhunt on March 22, 2017, 01:09:37 PM
Post by: Myrtle Creek Inc. on March 22, 2017, 01:40:19 PM
Currently, New Mexico has several hunts that are so restrictive that you have to use a sidelock muzzleloader in premium elk and deer units. On the other side, they also offer general muzzleloader tags across the state, which allow just about any modern inline to be used, including the Remington 700 UML. This is a broad range of equipment and serves the state well with allowing each group to have their time in the woods. Pennsylvania has long been known for their late-season flintlock only hunt, and recently opened a separate inline season earlier in the year, with fewer days. This has been a huge hit with many hunters, and this season is actually longer for youth hunters and is helping to get more kids into the woods.
Overall, I believe the two muzzleloader season track is the best one to allow more participants to our sport, while keeping the sanctity of traditional muzzleloading and enjoying its own season. This will allow newbies and hunters with poorer eyesight, or those just preferring scopes, to have their season and get out and enjoy the sport on their terms, while still allowing the traditionalists to enjoy the woods to themselves. Let's face it, with sabots and inlines already being legal in Washington, the laws are already allowing a whole sect of hunters that are non-traditionalists. Allowing those hunters to have a scope of some sort will increase the probability of success, and decrease the probability of wounded game. Granted this line of thinking is based on opinion, but overall we do need to work together to find an amicable solution.
With that being said, I think if Washington allows non-magnifying scopes, they are half a step away from 209 primers and variable zoom scopes. Depending on where you stand on the issue, I would recommend calling your local rep and voicing your opinion. When a decision is made, there are going to be some who disagree and some who agree, but either way, as hunters we need to come together and support each other in our sport. We are up against a growing liberal presence that would love nothing more than to eradicate all hunting seasons. If we continue to fight inwardly and use our time to battle each other, the other side is going to continue to make progress against us. In the end, we all enjoy the woods and hunting so let's keep that in mind and work together on a solution.
Post by: Skillet on March 22, 2017, 01:51:54 PM
We already have a primitive weapons seasons system. I world prefer we come to a consensus for more rigidly defining what a primitive weapon means in the context of those seasons than to further split our group up between traditional and modern ML's, compound and recurve archery, etc. Continuing to divide our ranks to justify the use of every new whiz-bang widget that gets pimped on hunting shows is not going to improve anybody's hunring situation. Only the outdoor industry's widget suppliers' bottom line.
Post by: trophyhunt on March 22, 2017, 01:58:31 PM
Post by: Gringo31 on March 22, 2017, 02:10:55 PM
I voted no
And to Dano complaining of his aging eyes...... no, he doesn't count as a primitive weapon :chuckle:
Post by: Curly on March 22, 2017, 02:17:09 PM
If most would stick together or side with the traditional guys, then the subject shouldn't even be enough of an issue to even be discissing. :)
Anyway, I vote no. My aging eyes are getting worse too and peep sights help some. Also, getting closer helps. :twocents:
Post by: jstone on March 22, 2017, 02:28:00 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 22, 2017, 02:45:10 PM
The "we all have to stick together" argument makes me chuckle. :chuckle: It depends on what side of the issue you're on as to whether or not everyone is "sticking" together.if you don't agree with me you aren't sticking together! :chuckle:
If most would stick together or side with the traditional guys, then the subject shouldn't even be enough of an issue to even be discissing. :)
Anyway, I vote no. My aging eyes are getting worse too and peep sights help some. Also, getting closer helps. :twocents:
Post by: Bob33 on March 22, 2017, 02:48:48 PM
Post by: Stein on March 22, 2017, 02:55:10 PM
Quote
Overall, there needs to be some common ground that allows youth hunters and less skilled marksmen to have higher rates of success[/quote
There is, it's called the rifle range. Best part is there is no season and no limits on the paper targets a guy can shoot in a year.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 22, 2017, 04:11:31 PM
Nore does it mean everyone has a problem with it.So let me understand this better, it's ok for archery and rifle equipment to have a steady increase in technology but one weapon group can't?Just because it is happening in other groups doesn't mean everyone thinks it's ok.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 23, 2017, 08:14:09 AM
Truth there.Nore does it mean everyone has a problem with it.So let me understand this better, it's ok for archery and rifle equipment to have a steady increase in technology but one weapon group can't?Just because it is happening in other groups doesn't mean everyone thinks it's ok.
I wish I couldn't give a rat about the tech creep and feel fine about letting anybody feel free to use whatever they want in their seasons, but reality is the number of bulls 3 pt+ is finite. Packing more people with more advantageous technology into early seasons seems like it hurts the user groups further and further in the line. Muzzy already has to deal with the aftermath of the archery season. Modern gets the sloppy thirds, especially with the newly opened early units. With more tech, you'll eventually get muzzy being the famed pumpkin patch.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 23, 2017, 11:01:54 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 23, 2017, 11:03:40 AM
Post by: jstone on March 23, 2017, 11:07:33 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 23, 2017, 11:22:11 AM
If you need glass to get a better shot then get closer? How is that an argument? Don't take the long shot..bad shots are taken at any range, trust me I know. 😬
Post by: trophyhunt on March 23, 2017, 11:23:03 AM
The argument can always go to the "it would be a more of a humane kill if the shot placement would be more accurate with glass"I truly believe less animals would be lost.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 23, 2017, 11:51:24 AM
Post by: grundy53 on March 23, 2017, 11:52:12 AM
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Post by: grundy53 on March 23, 2017, 11:52:23 AM
Could the same case not be made for doing away with archery and muzzy hunting altogether? That less animals would be wounded and lost?Exactly
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Post by: Skillet on March 23, 2017, 12:02:06 PM
Could the same case not be made for doing away with archery and muzzy hunting altogether? That less animals would be wounded and lost?Exactly
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Or hunting with a non-scoped model 94.
Or hunting at all.
Post by: floatinghat on March 23, 2017, 12:23:30 PM
If we bring the lighted nock to the discussion I would be ok with allowing tracer bullets during muzzy season. :chuckle:
I started typing that then stopped.
:chuckle:
That would be amazing though.......I'm picturing a slo-mo video of a giant cloud of smoke with a .50 cal tracer flying out of it.
I was thinking the samething, but the camera would have to be off to the side ;)
Overall, there needs to be some common ground that allows youth hunters and less skilled marksmen to have higher rates of success,
Why, it's hunting not shooting an animal? Isn't it about the experience, otherwise save money and time by going to Safeway. Bump the success rates and you have to even the playing field with other methods.
Post by: ghosthunter on March 23, 2017, 12:23:54 PM
I think older hunters with vision problems should be allowed . To retain these hunters.
Having said that. I think all methods should go back to start.
Stick bows, Flint locks,
No sights on bows, knocks, expanding broads the works all gone.
Someone else brought up youth.
I would give up hunting days for real extended Youth Hunts.
I would like to see a week long youth hunt for turkey, not just a weekend. Or at least two weekends for youth. :twocents:
Now that I think about it , going back to primitive would be the best move to gain better numbers because success rates would go down. Everyone gets to hunt, pending mule deer draws would not be needed. Season might even be able to be longer.
Lets do it. :tup: :yeah: :peep:
Post by: jstone on March 23, 2017, 12:24:13 PM
Post by: rasbo on March 23, 2017, 01:51:43 PM
Post by: jstone on March 23, 2017, 01:53:58 PM
Post by: jackelope on March 23, 2017, 02:51:52 PM
If you need glass to get a better shot then get closer? How is that an argument? Don't take the long shot..
This.
Maybe instead of putting glass on muzzleloaders, we should have a max range of 100 yards.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 23, 2017, 02:55:04 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 23, 2017, 02:55:13 PM
im not so sure that'll help me. :chuckle: I struggle real bad with muzzys.If you need glass to get a better shot then get closer? How is that an argument? Don't take the long shot..
This.
Maybe instead of putting glass on muzzleloaders, we should have a max range of 100 yards.
Hopefully I can break that hex with my muzzy this fall as I'm going all in with a WA muzzy deer tag. That dang thing has been racking up the missed shots for me the last few years.
I still say keep the glass off!
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 23, 2017, 03:18:12 PM
I believe it's inherently impossible to get agreement amongst short range weapon hunters because of the variety of mindsets therein. Personally, I hunt archery for the season dates so my point of view is based on what may or may not threaten season dates. Others do it for the enjoyment of using stick and string.
Post by: jackelope on March 23, 2017, 03:28:49 PM
im not so sure that'll help me. :chuckle: I struggle real bad with muzzys.If you need glass to get a better shot then get closer? How is that an argument? Don't take the long shot..
This.
Maybe instead of putting glass on muzzleloaders, we should have a max range of 100 yards.
Hopefully I can break that hex with my muzzy this fall as I'm going all in with a WA muzzy deer tag. That dang thing has been racking up the missed shots for me the last few years.
I still say keep the glass off!
Hey.....maybe some folks just aren't cut out for the short range work. Maybe you should just stick to long range work with all the other cool kids.
:dunno:
Post by: Bob33 on March 23, 2017, 03:55:24 PM
For his entire existence, man has used the most advanced means possible to kill his quarry. The idea of limiting one's ability in the hunt is such a new and bizarre experience (relatively speaking).The concept of "fair chase" has been around for a while, which voluntarily restricts the means of killing for ethical considerations. I don't believe that is the primary consideration in this discussion, however.
(From Wikipedia):
The earliest recorded North American usage of the term "fair chase" is in the fifth article of the Boone and Crockett Club constitution, adopted in February 1888. At this time in American history there were no laws governing the talking of game for food or for sport. Water-killing deer (driving deer with hounds or pushers into lakes where hunters waited in boats to either shoot, club, or cut the throats of deer) was also a widespread practice, especially in the Adirondack Mountains.
Article X of the club’s constitution declared that the killing of game while swimming was an "offense" for which a member may be suspended or expelled from the club.[5] Later writings by club members Roosevelt, George Bird Grinnell, and Aldo Leopold articulated the term "fair chase" to the public through books and magazine articles. Most notable of these where the club’s Acorn book series on hunting (1893 – 1933), Leopold's Sand County Almanac,[6] and Grinnell’s Forest and Stream magazine (now Field & Stream).
In 1893, Roosevelt wrote about hunting and fair chase in his book titled The Wilderness Hunter.[7]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_chase
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 23, 2017, 04:48:48 PM
For his entire existence, man has used the most advanced means possible to kill his quarry. The idea of limiting one's ability in the hunt is such a new and bizarre experience (relatively speaking).I think the best way to have unlimited tech is to go special permit. Then success rates, seasons and animal opportunity distribution would be more similar to the different groups.
I believe it's inherently impossible to get agreement amongst short range weapon hunters because of the variety of mindsets therein. Personally, I hunt archery for the season dates so my point of view is based on what may or may not threaten season dates. Others do it for the enjoyment of using stick and string.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 23, 2017, 05:18:29 PM
:chuckle: I could do that. But now it's a thing I have to prove to myself... and my buddy's too. The crap I catch from them is unrelenting. :bash:im not so sure that'll help me. :chuckle: I struggle real bad with muzzys.If you need glass to get a better shot then get closer? How is that an argument? Don't take the long shot..
This.
Maybe instead of putting glass on muzzleloaders, we should have a max range of 100 yards.
Hopefully I can break that hex with my muzzy this fall as I'm going all in with a WA muzzy deer tag. That dang thing has been racking up the missed shots for me the last few years.
I still say keep the glass off!
Hey.....maybe some folks just aren't cut out for the short range work. Maybe you should just stick to long range work with all the other cool kids.
:dunno:
Post by: jackmaster on March 24, 2017, 10:26:12 AM
Post by: Soady on March 24, 2017, 09:34:15 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 24, 2017, 10:43:00 PM
Post by: Hart on March 25, 2017, 08:40:46 AM
I voted no
Post by: elkboy on March 25, 2017, 09:27:48 AM
At the end of the day, though, know your effective ranges from each field position, stick to those ranges, and take good broadside or quartering away shots on stationary animals. That is the best way to minimize wounding loss. I don't think we ought to relax restrictions that make muzzy season what it is to accommodate those who don't care to practice, stalk closer, etc. If the animal is beyond your effective range, get closer. If you can't get closer, then the animal has won this round. And that is the kind of outcome that makes this hunting.
Post by: Dan-o on March 25, 2017, 10:40:17 AM
It's not just a matter of practice.
When I was younger I had standard visual acuity and could easily make 125 yard clean kills.
It's only the last 5 years or so that my eyes have gotten less able to focus near and far (as required for open sights).
Now I can't focus sights on a target beyond about 30 yards.......
A non magnifying sight would let some of us older folk hunt muzzleloader longer.
I hate to transition back to modern, but I might have to. Most of my all time favorite hunts have been chasing elk with muzzy in hand.
Post by: elkboy on March 25, 2017, 12:05:09 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 25, 2017, 12:15:49 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 25, 2017, 12:57:01 PM
Dan-O, that's a really fair point. I would support 1x glass for hunters beyond a certain age. What is your take on a good age limit that would create a more equitable situation between younger and older hunters?
That would be nice for them. Next though it would be people of all ages with poor vision wanting the same benefit. They'd have a point too.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 25, 2017, 12:57:58 PM
Post by: lazydrifter on March 25, 2017, 01:07:36 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 25, 2017, 01:37:26 PM
I'm 57. Eyes are slowly going. Got back into muzzleloaders last year. Am having a hard time seeing the sights. Put my glasses on I can see the sights but not the target. Would love to use a non magnifying scope.:tup: and I would love for you to have that option!
Post by: Bob33 on March 25, 2017, 01:50:33 PM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/accessibility/requirements_status.html
Visual Impairment Qualifications:
- Blindness is a central visual acuity that does not exceed 20/200 in the better eye with corrective lenses, or the widest diameter of the visual field does not exceed twenty degrees, or
- Low Vision is a severe loss of visual acuity ranging from 20/70 to 20/200 while retaining some visual function, or
- Visual impairments may include, but are not limited to: Albinism, Aniridia, Aphakia, Cataracts, Glaucoma, Macular Degeneration, or other similar diagnosed permanent disease or disorder.
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 25, 2017, 01:58:55 PM
:yeah: Everyone has a point!
So you know, we are in disagreement on the issue
Post by: Soady on March 25, 2017, 02:00:35 PM
Post by: jstone on March 25, 2017, 02:03:55 PM
Post by: Soady on March 25, 2017, 02:42:00 PM
What diff. would it make?None except maybe better shot placement,ID of quarry.You can say get closer fine,you can say get better fine you can say all kinds of stuff that doesn't matter.the fact is for some it doesn't matter.There are hunters that will take the shot with or without the scope.whether they are sure its a 3 point or not.If that is your arguement why would muzzleloaders want to incorporate that user group into the fold by changing a regulation to allow the use of a scoped muzzleloader in that season? :dunno:
Post by: Dan-o on March 25, 2017, 02:45:16 PM
Someone who extreme vision issues could quality as having disabilities which allows greater options:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/accessibility/requirements_status.html
Visual Impairment Qualifications:
- Blindness is a central visual acuity that does not exceed 20/200 in the better eye with corrective lenses, or the widest diameter of the visual field does not exceed twenty degrees, or
- Low Vision is a severe loss of visual acuity ranging from 20/70 to 20/200 while retaining some visual function, or
- Visual impairments may include, but are not limited to: Albinism, Aniridia, Aphakia, Cataracts, Glaucoma, Macular Degeneration, or other similar diagnosed permanent disease or disorder.
Thanks for this, Bob.
I wonder if I'd qualify.
I can still focus on deer at 400-500 yards through my rifle scope, but just can't focus on the sights and the elk with my muzzleloader.
I'd love to be able to put a 1X scope on my muzzy.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 25, 2017, 04:30:33 PM
we sure are,but you will surely debate in another thread someday with opposite ideals as you are now, arguing the same as i am here.:yeah: Everyone has a point!
So you know, we are in disagreement on the issue
Post by: Oh Mah on March 25, 2017, 04:34:31 PM
I'm sorry but nothing in your statement here is making any sense at all.you dont want better shot placement with a muzzy?who joins the user group muzzy hunters is not up to you or me,if a less than admirable hunter goes muzzy hunting and tries to shoot 300 yards whether he can or cant see makes no diff.you act like having or not having a scope will change whether a person will or wont take the shot anyway.What diff. would it make?None except maybe better shot placement,ID of quarry.You can say get closer fine,you can say get better fine you can say all kinds of stuff that doesn't matter.the fact is for some it doesn't matter.There are hunters that will take the shot with or without the scope.whether they are sure its a 3 point or not.If that is your arguement why would muzzleloaders want to incorporate that user group into the fold by changing a regulation to allow the use of a scoped muzzleloader in that season? :dunno:
Post by: bobcat on March 25, 2017, 04:56:46 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 25, 2017, 04:58:36 PM
we sure are,but you will surely debate in another thread someday with opposite ideals as you are now, arguing the same as i am here.:yeah: Everyone has a point!
So you know, we are in disagreement on the issue
And what ideals might they be?
Post by: Oh Mah on March 25, 2017, 06:13:30 PM
I am fine hunting without glass,i don't only think of how i feel about things like this though.everyone on here more than likely has said at one time or another on here or off that we have to many restrictions in hunting.Bear baiting gone,hounds gone.deer baiting limited almost gone.access passes,hatchery fish debates,tribal debates,all kinds of things on this forum i could go on for days.When its something you want you fight the people that don't want and we continue to loose because we cannot get together on anything as a collective group.
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 25, 2017, 06:36:42 PM
It's a primitive season, using (mostly) primitive technologies. For people with diagnosable vision impairment there are already concessions made.
I'm not just thinking about myself. My dad and I used to hunt together every muzzleloading season until... you guessed it. Now he hunts modern.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 25, 2017, 06:45:06 PM
Do you want less or more restrictions?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 25, 2017, 06:50:22 PM
The hypocrite point you try to make just doesn't hold water. It is a choice to hunt with a muzzy. You know the rules going into it. Adding glass optics to a muzzy would certainly increase the effective range and also harvest rates I think. It would also give the ability to increase effective range drastically over iron sights by having a much smaller aiming point and repeatable turrets. :twocents:
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 25, 2017, 06:52:09 PM
if you ever said like i said then you are being a hypocrite, can you cede that to me?i didn't say you're only thinking of you,i said you're picking and choosing what wdfw should or should not restrict.When i said that we all want less restrictions.
Do you want less or more restrictions?
The number of restrictions is not as important as their effect on sportsman and game.
Your point that people supporting some regulations and not others are being hypocritical is ill conceived. Frail argument that doesn't pass the sniff test.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 25, 2017, 06:53:48 PM
Maybe we should just take all restrictions out of it and all hunt together in one free for all season oh mah? Give the state 12 days for a no holds barred anything goes season?thats kinda what others said in a diff. thread.kill all the game so the natives have to start over,i disagreed but sure was a few on here that thought that was a good idea.
The hypocrite point you try to make just doesn't hold water. It is a choice to hunt with a muzzy. You know the rules going into it. Adding glass optics to a muzzy would certainly increase the effective range and also harvest rates I think. It would also give the ability to increase effective range drastically over iron sights by having a much smaller aiming point and repeatable turrets. :twocents:
Post by: Oh Mah on March 25, 2017, 06:55:48 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 25, 2017, 06:57:16 PM
Was Jon part of that other thread? Why does that even matter in this thread.Maybe we should just take all restrictions out of it and all hunt together in one free for all season oh mah? Give the state 12 days for a no holds barred anything goes season?thats kinda what others said in a diff. thread.kill all the game so the natives have to start over,i disagreed but sure was a few on here that thought that was a good idea.
The hypocrite point you try to make just doesn't hold water. It is a choice to hunt with a muzzy. You know the rules going into it. Adding glass optics to a muzzy would certainly increase the effective range and also harvest rates I think. It would also give the ability to increase effective range drastically over iron sights by having a much smaller aiming point and repeatable turrets. :twocents:
It is perfectly logical to be for less restrictions in some areas and for more restrictions in some other areas. :dunno:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 25, 2017, 06:58:58 PM
I wonder how many non muzzy hunters are voting in this poll.Do I get to count as a muzzy hunter even though I try and fail miserably at muzzy hunting? I am positive having a scope (magnified or not) would make me have a much easier time filling muzzy tags but I am still against letting them be allowed.
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 25, 2017, 06:59:22 PM
There are others
Post by: Oh Mah on March 25, 2017, 07:09:46 PM
your op. counts so that's fine.That being said do you think hunters that try to get better dates for these hunts are also trying to improve their odds of taking game?do you think With this logic maybe we should stop rut hunting all together that improves odds as well.I wonder how many non muzzy hunters are voting in this poll.Do I get to count as a muzzy hunter even though I try and fail miserably at muzzy hunting? I am positive having a scope (magnified or not) would make me have a much easier time filling muzzy tags but I am still against letting them be allowed.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 25, 2017, 07:13:01 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 25, 2017, 07:15:21 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 25, 2017, 07:17:23 PM
I wonder how many non muzzy hunters are voting in this poll.Thats what I'm wondering, I should have said muzzy guys only.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 25, 2017, 07:26:57 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 25, 2017, 07:41:32 PM
There now I'm winning
Post by: Oh Mah on March 25, 2017, 07:45:13 PM
Words, words, words!debating with you is like debating a clinton supporter,when you got nothing you go straight something like :yeah:.I OWNED YOU WITH FACTS IN THIS THREAD.
There now I'm winning
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 25, 2017, 08:18:47 PM
If you can't focus on your sights put a peep sight on your muzzleloader. Also limit your shots to about 75 yards. The intent of the muzzleloader season is to allow people to hunt with a primitive rifle. If you want a scoped muzzleloader you're free to hunt the modern firearm season.Right. It is my understanding that the early advocates for archery and muzzleloader were arguing for earlier/separate seasons from modern because their gear required them to close distance more so than could be reasonably expected in the modern season. Meaning that once the orange army was in the forest animals were more skittish and on alert, making it tougher to do a stalk and get in effective range. If folks are using equipment that is pushing into the standard ranges of gear limited to modern, why get to be in a special season?
Post by: blackdog on March 25, 2017, 09:17:53 PM
Post by: Soady on March 25, 2017, 11:09:59 PM
When its something you want you fight the people that don't want and we continue to loose because we cannot get together on anything as a collective group.
Words, words, words!debating with you is like debating a clinton supporter,when you got nothing you go straight something like :yeah:.I OWNED YOU WITH FACTS IN THIS THREAD.
There now I'm winning
Way to bring the group together with your facts in a collective manner by playing the political card :bdid:
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 12:00:18 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 26, 2017, 12:29:30 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 05:57:15 AM
I'm all for hunters sticking together with hunters, but when there is an issue like this a guy has to stand his ground on what he feels is right. There isn't anything wrong with that.
Post by: Curly on March 26, 2017, 07:33:49 AM
that's just it,there is no together.hunters just cannot get together on these issues and help the entire sport.its always my group my my my.hunters group against hunter group orv against horse against hiker against boater against jet skier against bird watcher against jeeper. :bash:
Maybe you could stick together with those of us that wish to keep it primitive. :dunno:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 26, 2017, 07:53:45 AM
that's just it,there is no together.hunters just cannot get together on these issues and help the entire sport.its always my group my my my.hunters group against hunter group orv against horse against hiker against boater against jet skier against bird watcher against jeeper. :bash:I'm fine with allowing more and more gadgets into modern firearm, even support loosening up the regs on some of the stuff WDFW prohibits now. That's where all the hunting methods are covered--bow, crossbows for some, shotguns, scoped/209 muzzies, etc. But I think the special seasons should be for those who need a little edge to compete with the masses. There's a guy on here that posts nearly every year about shooting deer/elk at 90+ yds with a bow. I can't say for the eastside, but wetside imo he should be running in the modern season. Doesn't seem like he needs the special season to make up for equipment range limitations. Essentially, it is turning into a form of getting to hunt with modern gear away from the modern crowd.
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 08:14:29 AM
that's just it,there is no together.hunters just cannot get together on these issues and help the entire sport.its always my group my my my.hunters group against hunter group orv against horse against hiker against boater against jet skier against bird watcher against jeeper. :bash:
Maybe you could stick together with those of us that wish to keep it primitive. :dunno:
:yeah: sticking together doesn't mean following a new and self appointed leader.
Post by: jackelope on March 26, 2017, 08:35:25 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 08:48:53 AM
So I'm likely to get flamed for this but it is what it is. If you can't shoot an open sighted muzzleloader because of vision issues, maybe you shouldn't be hunting with a muzzleloader. What about the guy who can't draw a bow...should he have accommodations made just because he wants to hunt the archery season or should he pick up a rifle? I don't know, and Dan-O this is not aimed at you and I don't mean to offend.
Exactly
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 08:55:43 AM
I agree.So I'm likely to get flamed for this but it is what it is. If you can't shoot an open sighted muzzleloader because of vision issues, maybe you shouldn't be hunting with a muzzleloader. What about the guy who can't draw a bow...should he have accommodations made just because he wants to hunt the archery season or should he pick up a rifle? I don't know, and Dan-O this is not aimed at you and I don't mean to offend.
Exactly
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 09:01:27 AM
If you have trouble seeing sights change your sights. There are peeps, big fibre optics, small fibre optics, iron, irons with a peep, ghost rings, etc.
We are trying to solve problems that aren't legitimate problems for a method that is meant to be a primitive form of hunting.
Post by: ribka on March 26, 2017, 09:06:08 AM
Post by: TONTO on March 26, 2017, 09:23:10 AM
Primitive was ment to be primitive, it sounds like advocating for firearm restricted seasons rather than primitive. There are all ready hunts, in firearm restricted areas, where you can use glass on your muzzy and still get away from the modern rifle guys. Of course you have to deal with the shotgun/handgun guys. I have been known to hunt modern season with a recurve bow just because it is the weapon I chose to carry at the time. There is nothing stopping anybody from scoping a muzzy and hunting modern season if that is the weapon you choose for personal reasons.
Post by: trophyhunt on March 26, 2017, 11:22:53 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 11:33:08 AM
I tend to agree with what most of you guys are saying, on both sides of the discussion. I wonder if non magnifying scopes have cross hairs, isn't that just another form of a sight? Tonto brings up a good point with the old brass tubes with cross hairs, It seems like just another product and not a huge advantage or upgrade in technology. What if a guy put thin wire on his peep sight to form an X? Just an idea, anyway, it's been a good discussion for the most part.You can get a front sight with crosshairs for a peep setup already. Several companies make them now. Most eotech style sights have multiple aiming point options. Crosshairs, dots, points, etc. They are a very accurate aiming solution and I can personally say it would extend my effective muzzy range well past what I am currently able to shoot.
Post by: trophyhunt on March 26, 2017, 11:44:09 AM
I didn't know that, I'll have to take a look. Although I do like my Willams peep.I tend to agree with what most of you guys are saying, on both sides of the discussion. I wonder if non magnifying scopes have cross hairs, isn't that just another form of a sight? Tonto brings up a good point with the old brass tubes with cross hairs, It seems like just another product and not a huge advantage or upgrade in technology. What if a guy put thin wire on his peep sight to form an X? Just an idea, anyway, it's been a good discussion for the most part.You can get a front sight with crosshairs for a peep setup already. Several companies make them now. Most eotech style sights have multiple aiming point options. Crosshairs, dots, points, etc. They are a very accurate aiming solution and I can personally say it would extend my effective muzzy range well past what I am currently able to shoot.
Post by: Soady on March 26, 2017, 11:58:50 AM
We are trying to solve problems that aren't legitimate problems for a method that is meant to be a primitive form of hunting.
So I'm likely to get flamed for this but it is what it is. If you can't shoot an open sighted muzzleloader because of vision issues, maybe you shouldn't be hunting with a muzzleloader. What about the guy who can't draw a bow...should he have accommodations made just because he wants to hunt the archery season or should he pick up a rifle? I don't know, and Dan-O this is not aimed at you and I don't mean to offend.
[/quotethat's just it,there is no together.hunters just cannot get together on these issues and help the entire sport.its always my group my my my.hunters group against hunter group orv against horse against hiker against boater against jet skier against bird watcher against jeeper. :bash:QuoteMaybe you could stick together with those of us that wish to keep it primitive. :dunno:that's just it,there is no together.hunters just cannot get together on these issues and help the entire sport.its always my group my my my.hunters group against hunter group orv against horse against hiker against boater against jet skier against bird watcher against jeeper. :bash:
Maybe you could stick together with those of us that wish to keep it primitive. :dunno:Quote:yeah: sticking together doesn't mean following a new and self appointed leader.
Absolutely agree on all points
Post by: Soady on March 26, 2017, 12:00:37 PM
Post by: Bob33 on March 26, 2017, 12:13:33 PM
What about the guy who can't draw a bow...should he have accommodations made just because he wants to hunt the archery season or should he pick up a rifle?If he can't draw a bow due to disabilities, accommodations are made. He can use a crossbow during archery seasons. :twocents:
Post by: Dan-o on March 26, 2017, 12:31:52 PM
So I'm likely to get flamed for this but it is what it is. If you can't shoot an open sighted muzzleloader because of vision issues, maybe you shouldn't be hunting with a muzzleloader. What about the guy who can't draw a bow...should he have accommodations made just because he wants to hunt the archery season or should he pick up a rifle? I don't know, and Dan-O this is not aimed at you and I don't mean to offend.
I get it... and no offense taken.... at least at you.
I am offended that I am getting older and my eyes are starting to suck and it makes it so I can't focus open sights. Am I allowed to be offended at my eyes???
I don't know where/how to draw the line, but I do agree you have to watch technology creep......
Post by: Soady on March 26, 2017, 12:43:19 PM
To Jackalope's statement "safety is first and foremost."
I agree with you Bob if one can't see your target in a primitive season use the rules in place to overcome the physical limitations and get the permits required.
Post by: Soady on March 26, 2017, 12:48:21 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 03:10:23 PM
Muzzleloader was meant to be a primitive weapon. Hence the earlier season, and additional late seasons. If a guy wants to use a scope, snag up a rifle and get to it. And yes I LOVE muzzleloader hunting. Like has been said multiple times before, there has to be a point where we stop the creep of technology into our primitive weapons, archery AND muzzleloader. That's what modern firearm season is for.your right.no more compounds during regular archery season.no more drop away rest,sight pins,you see where this is going right
I'm all for hunters sticking together with hunters, but when there is an issue like this a guy has to stand his ground on what he feels is right. There isn't anything wrong with that.
Post by: Dan-o on March 26, 2017, 03:15:15 PM
I want to put a compensated range finder and night scope on my muzzleloader.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 03:16:07 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 03:16:54 PM
I've changed my mind.You can.....for modern rifle season.........and for zombies
I want to put a compensated range finder abd night scope on my muzzleloader.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 03:21:02 PM
No not really. Nobody is advocating eliminating current advances. Simply saying enough is enough. Leave it where it is and all is good. We have inlines, sabots, fibre ootics, very efficient powders, etc. No doubt today's bow setups are far advanced as well, but when it comes down to it, both weapons are still primitive single shot weapons. The creep has to stop somewhere.yes BLRMAN but some of us want to take back some we lost because we can-t get together on these stupid issues.like baiting and hounds.if someone is so ardent to have it traditional they can....just like if you dont want firearms dont buy one.is it that hard,are the CONSERVATIVES on here that liberal that they dont want anyone doing this because they dont like it...really?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 26, 2017, 03:28:18 PM
is it that hard to just hunt modern season if you want a scope on your muzzy?No not really. Nobody is advocating eliminating current advances. Simply saying enough is enough. Leave it where it is and all is good. We have inlines, sabots, fibre ootics, very efficient powders, etc. No doubt today's bow setups are far advanced as well, but when it comes down to it, both weapons are still primitive single shot weapons. The creep has to stop somewhere.yes BLRMAN but some of us want to take back some we lost because we can-t get together on these stupid issues.like baiting and hounds.if someone is so ardent to have it traditional they can....just like if you dont want firearms dont buy one.is it that hard,are the CONSERVATIVES on here that liberal that they dont want anyone doing this because they dont like it...really?
I think you sound more liberal than the people you are trying to put down here. All is well in oh mahs world as long as you agree with him. If you don't you are evil and dumb is what I'm gathering.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 03:28:43 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 03:29:15 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 26, 2017, 03:30:20 PM
i hunt all weapons its not me how many times must that be said?So your arguing for the sake of arguing. Good to know.
Post by: Dan-o on March 26, 2017, 03:31:13 PM
If it comes down to zombie's I will no longer follow the regs.
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 03:33:39 PM
Muzzleloader was meant to be a primitive weapon. Hence the earlier season, and additional late seasons. If a guy wants to use a scope, snag up a rifle and get to it. And yes I LOVE muzzleloader hunting. Like has been said multiple times before, there has to be a point where we stop the creep of technology into our primitive weapons, archery AND muzzleloader. That's what modern firearm season is for.your right.no more compounds during regular archery season.no more drop away rest,sight pins,you see where this is going right
I'm all for hunters sticking together with hunters, but when there is an issue like this a guy has to stand his ground on what he feels is right. There isn't anything wrong with that.
You need to slow down and read what he and others have said. You quote somebody and think that you OWN THEM ON FACTS. In reality you aren't even making sense.
Example: he said stop the creep of technology into muzzleloader season. You take that and make some straw man argument about taking all tech out of archery :dunno:
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 03:38:57 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 03:40:50 PM
Will you stand to fight them changing the rules to not have them in archery?will you fight to get them back when lost?Muzzleloader was meant to be a primitive weapon. Hence the earlier season, and additional late seasons. If a guy wants to use a scope, snag up a rifle and get to it. And yes I LOVE muzzleloader hunting. Like has been said multiple times before, there has to be a point where we stop the creep of technology into our primitive weapons, archery AND muzzleloader. That's what modern firearm season is for.your right.no more compounds during regular archery season.no more drop away rest,sight pins,you see where this is going right
I'm all for hunters sticking together with hunters, but when there is an issue like this a guy has to stand his ground on what he feels is right. There isn't anything wrong with that.
You need to slow down and read what he and others have said. You quote somebody and think that you OWN THEM ON FACTS. In reality you aren't even making sense.
Example: he said stop the creep of technology into muzzleloader season. You take that and make some straw man argument about taking all tech out of archery :dunno:
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 03:41:28 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 03:42:39 PM
Someone has to since you on here are not fighting for everyone else,just you and yours.I am arguing for all the people that take the fight to the state and voice for all of you.not just to argue. nice try thoughi hunt all weapons its not me how many times must that be said?So your arguing for the sake of arguing. Good to know.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 03:43:59 PM
Come back when you are in the mood to understand that not-gaining does not equal losing.more deflecting from Jonathan not surprised,i bet you dont voice your opinion to the state either do you young man?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 03:48:54 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 26, 2017, 03:52:44 PM
here we go again.... if personally rather not have you as my voice and advocating things I don't want. We all have the capability to think for ourselves here and I am thinking that the muzzy rules are fine as is. If something is important to me I will fight for it. A muzzy scope is not one of those.Someone has to since you on here are not fighting for everyone else,just you and yours.I am arguing for all the people that take the fight to the state and voice for all of you.not just to argue. nice try thoughi hunt all weapons its not me how many times must that be said?So your arguing for the sake of arguing. Good to know.
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 03:54:22 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 03:57:17 PM
I'd go as far as saying I would advocate against it. We have already seen the effects of technology creep in the form of shorter seasons or lost seasons all together. I'm tired of losing days in the field.here we go again.... if personally rather not have you as my voice and advocating things I don't want. We all have the capability to think for ourselves here and I am thinking that the muzzy rules are fine as is. If something is important to me I will fight for it. A muzzy scope is not one of those.Someone has to since you on here are not fighting for everyone else,just you and yours.I am arguing for all the people that take the fight to the state and voice for all of you.not just to argue. nice try thoughi hunt all weapons its not me how many times must that be said?So your arguing for the sake of arguing. Good to know.
Post by: Pinetar on March 26, 2017, 03:59:41 PM
I'd go as far as saying I would advocate against it. We have already seen the effects of technology creep in the form of shorter seasons or lost seasons all together. I'm tired of losing days in the field.here we go again.... if personally rather not have you as my voice and advocating things I don't want. We all have the capability to think for ourselves here and I am thinking that the muzzy rules are fine as is. If something is important to me I will fight for it. A muzzy scope is not one of those.Someone has to since you on here are not fighting for everyone else,just you and yours.I am arguing for all the people that take the fight to the state and voice for all of you.not just to argue. nice try thoughi hunt all weapons its not me how many times must that be said?So your arguing for the sake of arguing. Good to know.
:yeah: x 2
Post by: grundy53 on March 26, 2017, 04:02:08 PM
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Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 04:02:22 PM
Darn young whippersnappers, wanting to keep primitive seasons primitive.BLRman yes i know we didnt loose it we never had it. SO.
Jonathan if you want to stay primitive then do it,my problem is why do you care if someone else does or not?If you want a trophy that falls in a true traditional category do it.the first rifle scope was made in 1835.pretty traditional if you ask me but you didn't so that's fine.the first percussion cap was made only 15 years earlier.so what is traditional to all against this?
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 04:04:37 PM
I think we should be able to use self contained metallic cartridges in breach loading rifles during muzzeloader season...since you want to jump in with sarcasm here,the first centerfire cartridge was made only 6 to 10 years before the first scope on rifle.
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Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 04:09:21 PM
Darn young whippersnappers, wanting to keep primitive seasons primitive.BLRman yes i know we didnt loose it we never had it. SO.
Jonathan if you want to stay primitive then do it,my problem is why do you care if someone else does or not?If you want a trophy that falls in a true traditional category do it.the first rifle scope was made in 1835.pretty traditional if you ask me but you didn't so that's fine.the first percussion cap was made only 15 years earlier.so what is traditional to all against this?
If you want to use the first scope ever made then I would encourage it.
During modern firearm season
Post by: grundy53 on March 26, 2017, 04:11:16 PM
Thanks for the history lesson. Your Google game is strong today. However I think you are missing the point.I think we should be able to use self contained metallic cartridges in breach loading rifles during muzzeloader season...since you want to jump in with sarcasm here,the first centerfire cartridge was made only 6 to 10 years before the first scope on rifle.
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Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 04:20:54 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 04:22:57 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 04:24:24 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 04:31:55 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 04:32:49 PM
One with open sightsthat loads from the muzzle and it's breech is exposed to the elements.
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 04:33:12 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 04:38:31 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 26, 2017, 04:39:13 PM
what muzzy do you have?Great Plains Rifle in .54 cal
Some years I'm about to toss it in the river, but instead go modern for a couple seasons with something else for range and reliability and a scope.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 04:41:39 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 04:47:23 PM
not gonna wait for you to reply BLM heres the punchline for all you.TRADITIONALLY SCOPES ON MUZZIES WAS LEGAL.All the way up until they put it in the rules that you could not! :IBCOOL::chuckle: trivia question. What year did washington establish a designated muzzleloader season?
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 04:52:16 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 04:59:28 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 05:01:52 PM
Post by: Brushbuster on March 26, 2017, 05:05:56 PM
The vast majority of states allow scopes on muzzleloader only hunts & they still get hunting seasons. There are only about a dozen states that don't allow them. I believe it's just a matter of time before WA realizes it can no longer continue to force hunters who need scopes to hunt in modern rifle seasons or not at all. We need more people in our sport not less. :twocents:
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 05:09:00 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 05:17:13 PM
WA. didn't even become a state for 50 years after first scope on rifle so.Tell us when did the first muzzy season get established in WA.?I have no idea. That's why I asked.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 05:19:16 PM
I've thought a lot about this thread today & decided to vote yes.apples to oranges. Some of those states don't even have a rifle season and are so overrun with whitetails they are pulling their hair out trying to kill enough of them. Almost every single western state DOES NOT allow scopes during a designated muzzleloader season. Can't compare east west.
The vast majority of states allow scopes on muzzleloader only hunts & they still get hunting seasons. There are only about a dozen states that don't allow them. I believe it's just a matter of time before WA realizes it can no longer continue to force hunters who need scopes to hunt in modern rifle seasons or not at all. We need more people in our sport not less. :twocents:
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 05:22:16 PM
I've thought a lot about this thread today & decided to vote yes.
The vast majority of states allow scopes on muzzleloader only hunts & they still get hunting seasons. There are only about a dozen states that don't allow them. I believe it's just a matter of time before WA realizes it can no longer continue to force hunters who need scopes to hunt in modern rifle seasons or not at all. We need more people in our sport not less. :twocents:
Many states have season until January too. That's beside the point though because many of those muzzleloading seasons are replacing bottleneck cartridges. Literally because they aren't allowed to use powerful rifles. Like the whole state is a firearms restricted area.
Hunter recruitment is huge no doubt, I don't see it being altered by optics on muzzleloading rifles.
:tup: gonna quote Jonathan here perzackly
That's all @cryder baby. I can't take credit
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 26, 2017, 05:27:27 PM
For some reason I keep thinking archery didn't get a separate season until the late 70's (77?) and muzzleloader was not long after. Too many 'turret gunners with missile launchers' running around to actually hunt the gear correctly. Also, think there were four times as many people in the woods in those days.WA. didn't even become a state for 50 years after first scope on rifle so.Tell us when did the first muzzy season get established in WA.?I have no idea. That's why I asked.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 05:28:46 PM
1)WA. became a state in 1889
2)scopes were invented in 1835-1840
3)first cartridge invented in 1829.
4)Pyrodex 1975
5)etc.etc
So what is it that the the people against this do that the people for it would do that is more or less traditional?
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 05:29:50 PM
You are the one that typed perzacklyI've thought a lot about this thread today & decided to vote yes.
The vast majority of states allow scopes on muzzleloader only hunts & they still get hunting seasons. There are only about a dozen states that don't allow them. I believe it's just a matter of time before WA realizes it can no longer continue to force hunters who need scopes to hunt in modern rifle seasons or not at all. We need more people in our sport not less. :twocents:
Many states have season until January too. That's beside the point though because many of those muzzleloading seasons are replacing bottleneck cartridges. Literally because they aren't allowed to use powerful rifles. Like the whole state is a firearms restricted area.
Hunter recruitment is huge no doubt, I don't see it being altered by optics on muzzleloading rifles.:tup: gonna quote Jonathan here perzackly
That's all @cryder baby. I can't take credit
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 05:33:24 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 05:42:18 PM
What is traditional about a muzzy?
How old does it have to be to be traditional?
If it was like it use to be when hunting traditional on the east side i might see it a little differently,but since i can't shoot less than 3 point seeing the extra point on a deer sure would be nice.can you see the 3rd point on a deer at 100 yards 75 yards even 60 yards everytime?
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 05:45:30 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 05:47:47 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 05:50:48 PM
Open sights
Ignition exposed to the elements
Single shot
Loaded from the muzzle
Just like great grand pappy
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 05:52:12 PM
Post by: Pinetar on March 26, 2017, 05:54:08 PM
cool but you didn't answer the question.
What is traditional about a muzzy?
How old does it have to be to be traditional?
If it was like it use to be when hunting traditional on the east side i might see it a little differently,but since i can't shoot less than 3 point seeing the extra point on a deer sure would be nice.can you see the 3rd point on a deer at 100 yards 75 yards even 60 yards everytime?
Yep, that is what my binos are for
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 05:55:47 PM
I told you exactly what was traditional about a muzzleloader. I'll say it again.Not just like great grand pappy but ok.People in WA. fought for you to use that inline.Just like they are right now for the use of scopes on muzzy,hounds for cougar,baiting for bear,the ability to still have limited baiting for elk and deer,leg hold traps, etc etc etc.You don't want so everyone can't is not how we should fight these fights
Open sights
Ignition exposed to the elements
Single shot
Loaded from the muzzle
Just like great grand pappy
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 05:58:12 PM
you are not gonna say that you look through your binos put them down bring up your muzzy and shoot,No longer knowing if your on the exact same target you saw when looking through your binos are you?Are you hoping that there is only 1 deer in the area?are binos traditional?Are range finders?are sabots?cool but you didn't answer the question.
What is traditional about a muzzy?
How old does it have to be to be traditional?
If it was like it use to be when hunting traditional on the east side i might see it a little differently,but since i can't shoot less than 3 point seeing the extra point on a deer sure would be nice.can you see the 3rd point on a deer at 100 yards 75 yards even 60 yards everytime?
Yep, that is what my binos are for
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 06:00:08 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 06:02:37 PM
yeah we do. It's really not difficult at all. One thing I don't do is just point a scoped weapon at stuff I wanna look at. That practice is pure *censored* and a great way to have an accident.you are not gonna say that you look through your binos put them down bring up your muzzy and shoot,No longer knowing if your on the exact same target you saw when looking through your binos are you?Are you hoping that there is only 1 deer in the area?are binos traditional?Are range finders?are sabots?cool but you didn't answer the question.
What is traditional about a muzzy?
How old does it have to be to be traditional?
If it was like it use to be when hunting traditional on the east side i might see it a little differently,but since i can't shoot less than 3 point seeing the extra point on a deer sure would be nice.can you see the 3rd point on a deer at 100 yards 75 yards even 60 yards everytime?
Yep, that is what my binos are for
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 26, 2017, 06:04:51 PM
yes that's exactly how you do it. Look in binos to be sure of legality and then shoot it with the muzzy. If there is any question on which animal you look again with your binos. It's really not that hard.you are not gonna say that you look through your binos put them down bring up your muzzy and shoot,No longer knowing if your on the exact same target you saw when looking through your binos are you?Are you hoping that there is only 1 deer in the area?are binos traditional?Are range finders?are sabots?cool but you didn't answer the question.
What is traditional about a muzzy?
How old does it have to be to be traditional?
If it was like it use to be when hunting traditional on the east side i might see it a little differently,but since i can't shoot less than 3 point seeing the extra point on a deer sure would be nice.can you see the 3rd point on a deer at 100 yards 75 yards even 60 yards everytime?
Yep, that is what my binos are for
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 26, 2017, 06:05:00 PM
I don't think anyone has a problem with any gear upgrades on muzzies being used in modern. Use thermal sights and laser guided saboted-jacketed bullets for all I care; but don't expect me to think you need a special season(s) away from the bulk of hunters by trying to exploit a loophole so you can get two seasons--one being early and both combined to give you three times as many days in the field.I told you exactly what was traditional about a muzzleloader. I'll say it again.Not just like great grand pappy but ok.People in WA. fought for you to use that inline.Just like they are right now for the use of scopes on muzzy,hounds for cougar,baiting for bear,the ability to still have limited baiting for elk and deer,leg hold traps, etc etc etc.You don't want so everyone can't is not how we should fight these fights
Open sights
Ignition exposed to the elements
Single shot
Loaded from the muzzle
Just like great grand pappy
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 06:07:57 PM
Better shot even at closer ranges.We can scope a pistol,They are short range.
Better for determining the legality of the target.
Might bring more hunters into the sport.
If you could make a shot closer to a vital in any way wouldn't you want to?
Post by: Pinetar on March 26, 2017, 06:08:38 PM
you are not gonna say that you look through your binos put them down bring up your muzzy and shoot,No longer knowing if your on the exact same target you saw when looking through your binos are you?Are you hoping that there is only 1 deer in the area?are binos traditional?Are range finders?are sabots?cool but you didn't answer the question.
What is traditional about a muzzy?
How old does it have to be to be traditional?
If it was like it use to be when hunting traditional on the east side i might see it a little differently,but since i can't shoot less than 3 point seeing the extra point on a deer sure would be nice.can you see the 3rd point on a deer at 100 yards 75 yards even 60 yards everytime?
Yep, that is what my binos are for
Yep that is how I do it, even when I'm hunting with my scoped rifle. Never use the scope to look through until I know it is trigger time.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 06:10:01 PM
first looking through binos yes i do and hope every does.you dont scan with a scopeyeah we do. It's really not difficult at all. One thing I don't do is just point a scoped weapon at stuff I wanna look at. That practice is pure *censored* and a great way to have an accident.you are not gonna say that you look through your binos put them down bring up your muzzy and shoot,No longer knowing if your on the exact same target you saw when looking through your binos are you?Are you hoping that there is only 1 deer in the area?are binos traditional?Are range finders?are sabots?cool but you didn't answer the question.
What is traditional about a muzzy?
How old does it have to be to be traditional?
If it was like it use to be when hunting traditional on the east side i might see it a little differently,but since i can't shoot less than 3 point seeing the extra point on a deer sure would be nice.can you see the 3rd point on a deer at 100 yards 75 yards even 60 yards everytime?
Yep, that is what my binos are for
Post by: hunter399 on March 26, 2017, 06:10:33 PM
The problem a scope makes it a 200 yrd rifle, so then what we add there season to modern season and have one long season.
After a lot arguments I have made about lots of changes,I'm not for a lot of changes these days.I think we're good the way it is.
Post by: Tbar on March 26, 2017, 06:14:46 PM
Who is fighting for scopes? Is there organized lobbying? OhMah are you on the GMAC?I told you exactly what was traditional about a muzzleloader. I'll say it again.Not just like great grand pappy but ok.People in WA. fought for you to use that inline.Just like they are right now for the use of scopes on muzzy,hounds for cougar,baiting for bear,the ability to still have limited baiting for elk and deer,leg hold traps, etc etc etc.You don't want so everyone can't is not how we should fight these fights
Open sights
Ignition exposed to the elements
Single shot
Loaded from the muzzle
Just like great grand pappy
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 06:23:02 PM
Post by: lazydrifter on March 26, 2017, 06:32:03 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 06:35:35 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 06:55:55 PM
Not a 200 yard weapon. A 400+ yard weapon. I was shooting my hawkens to 200 before an inline ever made it into my hands.You were?At deer?
What energy and fps at 200 yards were you getting with the 1 in 48 twist Hawkens anyway?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 06:59:08 PM
plenty enough to plow through the side of a deer.Not a 200 yard weapon. A 400+ yard weapon. I was shooting my hawkens to 200 before an inline ever made it into my hands.You were?At deer?
What energy and fps at 200 yards were you getting with the 1 in 48 twist Hawkens anyway?
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 07:05:08 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 07:05:56 PM
what kind of shot group did you usually have?plenty enough to plow through the side of a deer.Not a 200 yard weapon. A 400+ yard weapon. I was shooting my hawkens to 200 before an inline ever made it into my hands.You were?At deer?
What energy and fps at 200 yards were you getting with the 1 in 48 twist Hawkens anyway?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 07:10:14 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 07:11:07 PM
with good wind I'll explode milk jugs until I get tired of doing it at 200.what kind of shot group did you usually have?plenty enough to plow through the side of a deer.Not a 200 yard weapon. A 400+ yard weapon. I was shooting my hawkens to 200 before an inline ever made it into my hands.You were?At deer?
What energy and fps at 200 yards were you getting with the 1 in 48 twist Hawkens anyway?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 07:13:22 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 07:14:31 PM
Why do I need to know a number? Numbers don't kill animals, bullets do.Oh i thought you were a long range accuracy is everything shooter that's all.You did lead me to benchmark barrels so i just assumed,carry on nothing to see here.
But since you asked why do i need to know the numbers?well if you don't know the numbers ill ask how many shots before you found the target at 200 yards?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 07:19:56 PM
don't over think it. Large target. Dead hold on the top. Shoot a group and measure the drop.Why do I need to know a number? Numbers don't kill animals, bullets do.Oh i thought you were a long range accuracy is everything shooter that's all.You did lead me to benchmark barrels so i just assumed,carry on nothing to see here.
But since you asked why do i need to know the numbers?well if you don't know the numbers ill ask how many shots before you found the target at 200 yards?
It's not a precision rifle that I'm gonna chronograph and then true my ballistics on. Go to the range and shoot. No different than sighting it in at 100 yards. Did you honestly think I just shot at 100 and then went out and blasted at stuff?
Hunting is what I do. It's all I do. All off season is range time, scouting, research, gear upgrades. I hunt 4-6 states a year. Killing animals is what I do.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 07:20:40 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 26, 2017, 07:21:50 PM
No different than archery. 1st we had the long bow. Then the recurve. Then the compound. Went from 50% let off to 80% let off. Mechanical releases. sights. lighted nocks. carbon arrows. Went from 30 yard shooting to 80 yard shooting. Game cameras, thermal imaging. Certainly not like grand dad did.:yeah: those are some compelling points to technology creep for archery, I'd have to include range finders. For the record, I'm not asking for thoughts on magnifying scopes for muzzy. Only non magnifying, which to me seems like just a different type of sight, how is non magnifying cross hairs that much of an advantage? I don't think it will accelerate the action to legalize regular scopes for muzzy, I bet a poll on regular scopes for muzzy would be farther apart with the ya's and na's.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 07:22:48 PM
More importantly you prove my point in a way.A few of the people on here were concerned that putting a scope on a muzzy would turn it into a longer range weapon.well 200 yards is quite far with or without a scope.At 300 yards a 50. cal muzzy with 48 twist can't shoot more than around 800 fp energy at 300 yards.so how does a scope change it into a long range again?50's are usually a 28 twist.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 07:24:39 PM
No actually you don't want to know what i think about your yarndon't over think it. Large target. Dead hold on the top. Shoot a group and measure the drop.Why do I need to know a number? Numbers don't kill animals, bullets do.Oh i thought you were a long range accuracy is everything shooter that's all.You did lead me to benchmark barrels so i just assumed,carry on nothing to see here.
But since you asked why do i need to know the numbers?well if you don't know the numbers ill ask how many shots before you found the target at 200 yards?
It's not a precision rifle that I'm gonna chronograph and then true my ballistics on. Go to the range and shoot. No different than sighting it in at 100 yards. Did you honestly think I just shot at 100 and then went out and blasted at stuff?
Hunting is what I do. It's all I do. All off season is range time, scouting, research, gear upgrades. I hunt 4-6 states a year. Killing animals is what I do.
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 07:27:48 PM
No actually you don't want to know what i think about your yarndon't over think it. Large target. Dead hold on the top. Shoot a group and measure the drop.Why do I need to know a number? Numbers don't kill animals, bullets do.Oh i thought you were a long range accuracy is everything shooter that's all.You did lead me to benchmark barrels so i just assumed,carry on nothing to see here.
But since you asked why do i need to know the numbers?well if you don't know the numbers ill ask how many shots before you found the target at 200 yards?
It's not a precision rifle that I'm gonna chronograph and then true my ballistics on. Go to the range and shoot. No different than sighting it in at 100 yards. Did you honestly think I just shot at 100 and then went out and blasted at stuff?
Hunting is what I do. It's all I do. All off season is range time, scouting, research, gear upgrades. I hunt 4-6 states a year. Killing animals is what I do.
The only yarn is between your ears.
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 07:29:38 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 07:29:46 PM
That's a good one.Is that all you got?Your short on facts.But your welcome to get on anyone's wagon since you don't have your ownNo actually you don't want to know what i think about your yarndon't over think it. Large target. Dead hold on the top. Shoot a group and measure the drop.Why do I need to know a number? Numbers don't kill animals, bullets do.Oh i thought you were a long range accuracy is everything shooter that's all.You did lead me to benchmark barrels so i just assumed,carry on nothing to see here.
But since you asked why do i need to know the numbers?well if you don't know the numbers ill ask how many shots before you found the target at 200 yards?
It's not a precision rifle that I'm gonna chronograph and then true my ballistics on. Go to the range and shoot. No different than sighting it in at 100 yards. Did you honestly think I just shot at 100 and then went out and blasted at stuff?
Hunting is what I do. It's all I do. All off season is range time, scouting, research, gear upgrades. I hunt 4-6 states a year. Killing animals is what I do.
The only yarn is between your ears.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 07:31:59 PM
More importantly you prove my point in a way.A few of the people on here were concerned that putting a scope on a muzzy would turn it into a longer range weapon.well 200 yards is quite far with or without a scope.At 300 yards a 50. cal muzzy with 48 twist can't shoot more than around 800 fp energy at 300 yards.so how does a scope change it into a long range again?I was hunting with a buddy a few years back. We rattled in a nice 3pt mule deer. It was nasty weather and he had a hang fire, because it's a primitive weapon and that can happen. The hit was poor and the deer had a busted leg. By the time we got up and over the ridge he was already across the next canyon. With a hit animal, the goal is to put them down. Cody got prone on his pack, gave the buck a good lead and touched one off. Hit that buck between the shoulder blades, through the spine, vitals, out the bottom of the brisket, and lodged in the hide at the front of the chest. That shot was 380 yards. 300 grain slug and 100gr of fff. They will absolutely kill at farther ranges.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 07:34:50 PM
what does that even mean :chuckle:No actually you don't want to know what i think about your yarndon't over think it. Large target. Dead hold on the top. Shoot a group and measure the drop.Why do I need to know a number? Numbers don't kill animals, bullets do.Oh i thought you were a long range accuracy is everything shooter that's all.You did lead me to benchmark barrels so i just assumed,carry on nothing to see here.
But since you asked why do i need to know the numbers?well if you don't know the numbers ill ask how many shots before you found the target at 200 yards?
It's not a precision rifle that I'm gonna chronograph and then true my ballistics on. Go to the range and shoot. No different than sighting it in at 100 yards. Did you honestly think I just shot at 100 and then went out and blasted at stuff?
Hunting is what I do. It's all I do. All off season is range time, scouting, research, gear upgrades. I hunt 4-6 states a year. Killing animals is what I do.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 07:37:13 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 26, 2017, 07:37:17 PM
id like to see what you think of Karl's yarn....No actually you don't want to know what i think about your yarndon't over think it. Large target. Dead hold on the top. Shoot a group and measure the drop.Why do I need to know a number? Numbers don't kill animals, bullets do.Oh i thought you were a long range accuracy is everything shooter that's all.You did lead me to benchmark barrels so i just assumed,carry on nothing to see here.
But since you asked why do i need to know the numbers?well if you don't know the numbers ill ask how many shots before you found the target at 200 yards?
It's not a precision rifle that I'm gonna chronograph and then true my ballistics on. Go to the range and shoot. No different than sighting it in at 100 yards. Did you honestly think I just shot at 100 and then went out and blasted at stuff?
Hunting is what I do. It's all I do. All off season is range time, scouting, research, gear upgrades. I hunt 4-6 states a year. Killing animals is what I do.
tell us!
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 26, 2017, 07:38:35 PM
To both of your posts BLRman. i mean it doesn't add up.on your second post it is not a traditional muzzy that your friend did that with.it was a in line,are you gonna say it wasn't?What's wrong with inlines? Karl has said nothing against inlines at all. Yet you keep going after him on stupid crap. All your out to do is pick a fight...
Post by: trophyhunt on March 26, 2017, 07:39:55 PM
That far and on the run, with a 300 grain muzzy bullet?? That is probably the best shot I've ever heard of, amazing! I'm not being a wise ass Karl, seriously, that's an incredible feat.More importantly you prove my point in a way.A few of the people on here were concerned that putting a scope on a muzzy would turn it into a longer range weapon.well 200 yards is quite far with or without a scope.At 300 yards a 50. cal muzzy with 48 twist can't shoot more than around 800 fp energy at 300 yards.so how does a scope change it into a long range again?I was hunting with a buddy a few years back. We rattled in a nice 3pt mule deer. It was nasty weather and he had a hang fire, because it's a primitive weapon and that can happen. The hit was poor and the deer had a busted leg. By the time we got up and over the ridge he was already across the next canyon. With a hit animal, the goal is to put them down. Cody got prone on his pack, gave the buck a good lead and touched one off. Hit that buck between the shoulder blades, through the spine, vitals, out the bottom of the brisket, and lodged in the hide at the front of the chest. That shot was 380 yards. 300 grain slug and 100gr of fff. They will absolutely kill at farther ranges.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 07:41:20 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 26, 2017, 07:42:21 PM
bull.this fight was over inlines only a couple years ago.inline were fought by people that did not think they were primitive enough all goes together in this thread,i will keep arguing for hunters that want to change the sport for the better.i dont want the fight i want all hunters to work together.the hunters that want their way and only their way for no good reason is a problemSeems to me this thread is about nonmagnified scopes and has nothing to do with inlines... maybe you should re read the title
Btw your last sentence perfectly describes you
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 07:43:35 PM
Not on the run jerry. I gave him a coyote howl as he was climbing the wall on the other side of the canyon. Buck stopped and Cody was able to get the shot off. Cody and I have shot ton of smoke pole. We used to shoot at the rifle gongs at 500 yards. It was def an estimated guess. That buck was wounded bad and in that situation the goal is to anchor the animal and end the suffering.That far and on the run, with a 300 grain muzzy bullet?? That is probably the best shot I've ever heard of, amazing! I'm not being a wise ass Karl, seriously, that's an incredible feat.More importantly you prove my point in a way.A few of the people on here were concerned that putting a scope on a muzzy would turn it into a longer range weapon.well 200 yards is quite far with or without a scope.At 300 yards a 50. cal muzzy with 48 twist can't shoot more than around 800 fp energy at 300 yards.so how does a scope change it into a long range again?I was hunting with a buddy a few years back. We rattled in a nice 3pt mule deer. It was nasty weather and he had a hang fire, because it's a primitive weapon and that can happen. The hit was poor and the deer had a busted leg. By the time we got up and over the ridge he was already across the next canyon. With a hit animal, the goal is to put them down. Cody got prone on his pack, gave the buck a good lead and touched one off. Hit that buck between the shoulder blades, through the spine, vitals, out the bottom of the brisket, and lodged in the hide at the front of the chest. That shot was 380 yards. 300 grain slug and 100gr of fff. They will absolutely kill at farther ranges.
Post by: trophyhunt on March 26, 2017, 07:45:03 PM
oh, ok. Still a hell of a shot, I bet that was fun to see!Not on the run jerry. I gave him a coyote howl as he was climbing the wall on the other side of the canyon. Buck stopped and Cody was able to get the shot off.That far and on the run, with a 300 grain muzzy bullet?? That is probably the best shot I've ever heard of, amazing! I'm not being a wise ass Karl, seriously, that's an incredible feat.More importantly you prove my point in a way.A few of the people on here were concerned that putting a scope on a muzzy would turn it into a longer range weapon.well 200 yards is quite far with or without a scope.At 300 yards a 50. cal muzzy with 48 twist can't shoot more than around 800 fp energy at 300 yards.so how does a scope change it into a long range again?I was hunting with a buddy a few years back. We rattled in a nice 3pt mule deer. It was nasty weather and he had a hang fire, because it's a primitive weapon and that can happen. The hit was poor and the deer had a busted leg. By the time we got up and over the ridge he was already across the next canyon. With a hit animal, the goal is to put them down. Cody got prone on his pack, gave the buck a good lead and touched one off. Hit that buck between the shoulder blades, through the spine, vitals, out the bottom of the brisket, and lodged in the hide at the front of the chest. That shot was 380 yards. 300 grain slug and 100gr of fff. They will absolutely kill at farther ranges.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 07:45:43 PM
this thread and all other threads that discuss the regs is about hunters working these things out together and then pushing them together.i am still waiting for a good reason for NON MAGNIFIED SCOPES ON MUZZY. let alone anything else i've arguedbull.this fight was over inlines only a couple years ago.inline were fought by people that did not think they were primitive enough all goes together in this thread,i will keep arguing for hunters that want to change the sport for the better.i dont want the fight i want all hunters to work together.the hunters that want their way and only their way for no good reason is a problemSeems to me this thread is about nonmagnified scopes and has nothing to do with inlines... maybe you should re read the title
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 26, 2017, 07:48:44 PM
That's funny. The thread title still says nonmagnified scopes... not whatever you are trying to make it say.this thread and all other threads that discuss the regs is about hunters working these things out together and then pushing them together.i am still waiting for a good reason for NON MAGNIFIED SCOPES ON MUZZY. let alone anything else i've arguedbull.this fight was over inlines only a couple years ago.inline were fought by people that did not think they were primitive enough all goes together in this thread,i will keep arguing for hunters that want to change the sport for the better.i dont want the fight i want all hunters to work together.the hunters that want their way and only their way for no good reason is a problemSeems to me this thread is about nonmagnified scopes and has nothing to do with inlines... maybe you should re read the title
In my opinion a scope on a muzzy would make it more aligned with modern firearm and it should be used in that season.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 07:48:56 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 07:53:35 PM
I THINK YOU SHOULD READ THE OP OPENING STATEMENT,Then pull your foot out of your mouth for making this statement on what this thread is aboutThat's funny. The thread title still says nonmagnified scopes... not whatever you are trying to make it say.this thread and all other threads that discuss the regs is about hunters working these things out together and then pushing them together.i am still waiting for a good reason for NON MAGNIFIED SCOPES ON MUZZY. let alone anything else i've arguedbull.this fight was over inlines only a couple years ago.inline were fought by people that did not think they were primitive enough all goes together in this thread,i will keep arguing for hunters that want to change the sport for the better.i dont want the fight i want all hunters to work together.the hunters that want their way and only their way for no good reason is a problemSeems to me this thread is about nonmagnified scopes and has nothing to do with inlines... maybe you should re read the title
In my opinion a scope on a muzzy would make it more aligned with modern firearm and it should be used in that season.
Post by: hunter399 on March 26, 2017, 07:57:42 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 26, 2017, 07:57:57 PM
A representative is asking on Facebook what people think about this, this is my opinion. Non magnifying scope isn't going to guarantee a kill guys, it may help with reduced poor shots and finding game. We still have an open breech, exposed to weather, we still have a single shot short range weapon. Hunters need to stick together, I really don't see how this changes a whole lot. Fiber optic sights are pretty good and peep sights as well, those guys who shoot often and well probably won't be running to the store to put a non mag scope on. Archery got expandable broadheads, and more let off, I've seen guys shoot over 100 yards accurately. I was ok with expandable broad heads because I thought it would help a bit w accuracy and the recovery of wounded animals. Rifle guys now have scopes that give them a 1,000 + yard shooting range! I hunt with all 3 weapons, I also support all 3. This isn't a green light that gives muzzy guys normal power scopes, when that option does come up, then I'd say no. But non optics, not that big of a deal guys. I fully support this!i quoted it for you oh mah. It talks about nonmagnified scopes. Just like the title. You know larger font and all caps may get your points across better. :chuckle:
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2017, 07:59:52 PM
Post by: hunter399 on March 26, 2017, 08:01:32 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 08:02:28 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 08:02:57 PM
his opening statements say it all,you dont want it you dont want itA representative is asking on Facebook what people think about this, this is my opinion. Non magnifying scope isn't going to guarantee a kill guys, it may help with reduced poor shots and finding game. We still have an open breech, exposed to weather, we still have a single shot short range weapon. Hunters need to stick together, I really don't see how this changes a whole lot. Fiber optic sights are pretty good and peep sights as well, those guys who shoot often and well probably won't be running to the store to put a non mag scope on. Archery got expandable broadheads, and more let off, I've seen guys shoot over 100 yards accurately. I was ok with expandable broad heads because I thought it would help a bit w accuracy and the recovery of wounded animals. Rifle guys now have scopes that give them a 1,000 + yard shooting range! I hunt with all 3 weapons, I also support all 3. This isn't a green light that gives muzzy guys normal power scopes, when that option does come up, then I'd say no. But non optics, not that big of a deal guys. I fully support this!i quoted it for you oh mah. It talks about nonmagnified scopes. Just like the title. You know larger font and all caps may get your points across better. :chuckle:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 26, 2017, 08:03:04 PM
The words bum fights ,makes me wanna go YouTube right now. :chuckle::chuckle: oh no!!!!
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 08:05:17 PM
only if its an inline but we already went over thisMore importantly you prove my point in a way.A few of the people on here were concerned that putting a scope on a muzzy would turn it into a longer range weapon.well 200 yards is quite far with or without a scope.At 300 yards a 50. cal muzzy with 48 twist can't shoot more than around 800 fp energy at 300 yards.so how does a scope change it into a long range again?50's are usually a 28 twist.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 08:11:04 PM
Around 700 fps,about 350 fp energy, around 200 in (actually more like 110) bullet drop with a 100 yard zero.....?More importantly you prove my point in a way.A few of the people on here were concerned that putting a scope on a muzzy would turn it into a longer range weapon.well 200 yards is quite far with or without a scope.At 300 yards a 50. cal muzzy with 48 twist can't shoot more than around 800 fp energy at 300 yards.so how does a scope change it into a long range again?I was hunting with a buddy a few years back. We rattled in a nice 3pt mule deer. It was nasty weather and he had a hang fire, because it's a primitive weapon and that can happen. The hit was poor and the deer had a busted leg. By the time we got up and over the ridge he was already across the next canyon. With a hit animal, the goal is to put them down. Cody got prone on his pack, gave the buck a good lead and touched one off. Hit that buck between the shoulder blades, through the spine, vitals, out the bottom of the brisket, and lodged in the hide at the front of the chest. That shot was 380 yards. 300 grain slug and 100gr of fff. They will absolutely kill at farther ranges.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 08:19:58 PM
No clue what he zeroes at, not my rifle. I haven't chronographed his muzzy at 380 yards so I have no idea what his fps are at that range and neither can you. Ballistic calculators have to be trued to be accurate and you are obviously trying to use a calculator to prove some unknown point. You don't know his muzzle velocity or b.c. of his bullet either so you are basically just making up numbers.Around 700 fps,about 350 fp energy, around 200 in bullet drop with a 100 yard zero.....?More importantly you prove my point in a way.A few of the people on here were concerned that putting a scope on a muzzy would turn it into a longer range weapon.well 200 yards is quite far with or without a scope.At 300 yards a 50. cal muzzy with 48 twist can't shoot more than around 800 fp energy at 300 yards.so how does a scope change it into a long range again?I was hunting with a buddy a few years back. We rattled in a nice 3pt mule deer. It was nasty weather and he had a hang fire, because it's a primitive weapon and that can happen. The hit was poor and the deer had a busted leg. By the time we got up and over the ridge he was already across the next canyon. With a hit animal, the goal is to put them down. Cody got prone on his pack, gave the buck a good lead and touched one off. Hit that buck between the shoulder blades, through the spine, vitals, out the bottom of the brisket, and lodged in the hide at the front of the chest. That shot was 380 yards. 300 grain slug and 100gr of fff. They will absolutely kill at farther ranges.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 08:31:56 PM
Post by: Mr Mykiss on March 26, 2017, 08:33:23 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 08:35:17 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 26, 2017, 08:37:12 PM
you gave all the info and i told you what it was.the rifle doesnt matter except the length and that dont change much in this.It's truly amazing you can know the exact details of a shot taken by someone you don't personally know years ago down to bullet bc and muzzle velocity. Impressive.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 08:40:22 PM
he lobbed a bullet across a canyon and hit the bullseye.Cool.remember how i said some hunters would do it even if they didnt have a scope?dont you think others might?Maybe others cant thread the eye at 380 like your friend so maybe a scope would help the hunters that will try,shouldn't but do.You completely cherry picked that experience. He doesn't just lob rounds at 380 across canyons at animals. That buck was wounded and needed to be put down as fast as possible. Guys in Utah and and other states are shooting scoped muzzleloaders much farther than that. Youtube long range muzzleloaders and see what they can do when modernized. Hence the reason we would 100% lose days in the field if we allowed moder optics.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 08:41:04 PM
Are you being serious here.BLRman said 100 grains of fff,300 grain slug. everything is here. I gave it the best bc in the book. its all here all the info needed. :bash:you gave all the info and i told you what it was.the rifle doesnt matter except the length and that dont change much in this.It's truly amazing you can know the exact details of a shot taken by someone you don't personally know years ago down to bullet bc and muzzle velocity. Impressive.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 08:42:05 PM
right. And without knowing what the gun even was. Could have been a 30" green mountain barrel :dunno:you gave all the info and i told you what it was.the rifle doesnt matter except the length and that dont change much in this.It's truly amazing you can know the exact details of a shot taken by someone you don't personally know years ago down to bullet bc and muzzle velocity. Impressive.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 08:44:06 PM
like I said before, numbers don't kill animals, bullets do. Doesn't matter what your calculator says, that bullet ran the depth of that deer and flattened him! Crushing bone along the way. 1 dead deer, that's the only number that mattersAre you being serious here.BLRman said 100 grains of fff,300 grain slug. everything is here. I gave it the best bc in the book. its all here all the info needed. :bash:you gave all the info and i told you what it was.the rifle doesnt matter except the length and that dont change much in this.It's truly amazing you can know the exact details of a shot taken by someone you don't personally know years ago down to bullet bc and muzzle velocity. Impressive.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 08:47:19 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 26, 2017, 08:48:13 PM
environmental? now i have seen it all im done.Yes sir. Ambient air conditions. Air pressure, temperature etc. it all impacts it.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 08:48:21 PM
environmental? now i have seen it all im done.:chuckle: yeah temp barometric pressure. Those little guys :chuckle:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 08:49:45 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 26, 2017, 08:50:14 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 08:52:21 PM
This thread has really gotten off course. My apologies to the op. :sry:dont. He made me listen to John Denver at the Northwest Mountain Challenge! He deserves all the derailing we can muster :chuckle:
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 08:55:09 PM
yeah believe me when i say i know these little things.i gave you the best anything less than what i gave only makes it worse for your story..you did say what the weather was like by the way.environmental? now i have seen it all im done.:chuckle: yeah temp barometric pressure. Those little guys :chuckle:
Post by: Oh Mah on March 26, 2017, 08:59:19 PM
Post by: Bob33 on March 26, 2017, 08:59:57 PM
now i have seen it all im done.That's last what: 5 minutes?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 26, 2017, 09:01:21 PM
Sorry one more thing i'm getting out of this conversation for the last because it is far from honest,I will however come back to it to see if anyone can be honest enough with themselves to get in on this and back up some of what i said.not only on my opinions but on this 380 yard shot yarn and the comments made by the both of you on it.How long will you be gone this time? Is this what the 3rd or 4th time you've been done with this thread?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 09:07:29 PM
Sorry one more thing i'm getting out of this conversation for the last because it is far from honest,I will however come back to it to see if anyone can be honest enough with themselves to get in on this and back up some of what i said.not only on my opinions but on this 380 yard shot yarn and the comments made by the both of you on it.how is it a yarn? Don't beat around the bush, you're calling me a lyer. By your comments you OBVIOUSLY have little experience with muzzleloaders. I never said it was a calculated, accurate shot. I said we had a deer that needed another bullet so he hail mary'd one and connected. Whole point of the story was to point out how effective one of those big slow slugs still is at longer distances. That bullet wasn't tumbling yet because it expanded some. With a scope that is no doubt a shot that could be made with an accurate gun and skilled shooter. LITERALLY guys are doing it and then some. Youtube it.
Post by: Skillet on March 26, 2017, 09:08:29 PM
What does it matter what the drop at that range is? Has nothing at all to do with the point of the anecdote, or the point of this thread. :dunno:
Edited to add: You totally stole my thunder Karl. :chuckle:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 09:11:28 PM
I don't think BLRMAN shared that anecdote as a repeatable shot, but rather as a one-time desperation hail mary that anchored a a wounded deer. It was meant to show that the muzzleloader is lethal far beyond what is considered normal range for open-sighted muzzleloaders.THANK YOU!!!!! I've been scratching my head trying to figure out why he keeps arguing it. Thought maybe I worded it strange or something.
What does it matter what the drop at that range is? Has nothing at all to do with the point of the anecdote, or the point of this thread. :dunno:
Post by: Curly on March 26, 2017, 09:21:27 PM
bull.this fight was over inlines only a couple years ago.inline were fought by people that did not think they were primitive enough all goes together in this thread,i will keep arguing for hunters that want to change the sport for the better.i dont want the fight i want all hunters to work together.the hunters that want their way and only their way for no good reason is a problemBtw your last sentence perfectly describes you
:yeah:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 09:46:03 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 26, 2017, 09:48:50 PM
Post by: TONTO on March 26, 2017, 09:57:54 PM
This thread has really gotten off course. My apologies to the op. :sry:dont. He made me listen to John Denver at the Northwest Mountain Challenge! He deserves all the derailing we can muster :chuckle:
That John Denver is full of $&@% !,.....but then again so is the thread :dunno:
Post by: trophyhunt on March 27, 2017, 07:06:45 AM
Lol, ok, how about some johnny Cash this year? Or Iron Maiden? :chuckle:This thread has really gotten off course. My apologies to the op. :sry:dont. He made me listen to John Denver at the Northwest Mountain Challenge! He deserves all the derailing we can muster :chuckle:
Post by: CP on March 27, 2017, 07:46:45 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 27, 2017, 07:58:19 AM
haha! I'll never say no to Johnny cash :chuckle:Lol, ok, how about some johnny Cash this year? Or Iron Maiden? :chuckle:This thread has really gotten off course. My apologies to the op. :sry:dont. He made me listen to John Denver at the Northwest Mountain Challenge! He deserves all the derailing we can muster :chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on March 27, 2017, 08:24:26 AM
What about the guy who can't draw a bow...should he have accommodations made just because he wants to hunt the archery season or should he pick up a rifle?If he can't draw a bow due to disabilities, accommodations are made. He can use a crossbow during archery seasons. :twocents:
You got me. I totally spaced this out. Flush my thoughts down the toilet. I'll be twisting turrets on my 1x muzzy scope before sundown(see what I did there?)
Post by: jackelope on March 27, 2017, 08:26:27 AM
now i have seen it all im done.That's last what: 5 minutes?
Actually he made it 8 minutes.
Post by: Sabotloader on March 27, 2017, 09:51:41 AM
Wondering.... why is the General Muzzleloading season for either deer or elk considered by so many to be a 'primitive' hunt? I am sure that is the way it may have started and I really appreciate those that were able to get them started, but today I can not find anything in the Washington Regulations to indicate that they are considered a 'primitive' or even 'Traditional' hunting any longer. They might be more correctly identified as a short range weapon season especially since you can use modern bows in the scheduled season. But in reality that does not work either because shotguns would need to be considered then. I believe shotguns are ruled out because of the ignition system they use. So.... Washington might be right on the correct track calling it a 'Muzzleloading Season' that also allows bows. I think long ago the ML seasons moved from 'primitive' to what they have progressed to now.
In Idaho we have progressed through the same type of changes, actually you in Washington are even ahead of us since you do allow sabots and modern projectiles.
Under the current regulation in the three Pacific Northwest states there is really know difference in the abilities of a traditional muzzleloader and the more modern inline. The current rules with the cap on the type of ignition system is the greatest equalizer going for the two types of rifles. What one can do with a Western inline can easily be duplicated with a perceived Traditional side hammer.
rifle.
It is my belief that ML seasons have progressed the way they have is that the State Agencies in charge have found these shorter range seasons as a valuable tool in the management of wildlife especially in populated areas where wildlife damage can be a costly factor. Of course another probably larger factor is the extra income that ML hunters provide the agencies. In fact the more people that venture into the ML hunts the more revenue generated for the Agency. From my viewpoint that is what really changed the traditional ML seasons to the current types of changes that has allowed more hunters to make the move to Muzzleloaders. But, in fact that is still only 10-15% of the hunters that pursue game during the regular rifle seasons.
Another thought I have we owe the animals that we hunt something also. The opportunity to harvest a game animal quickly after a shot opportunity should be one of the big considerations. In that, I know there are probably a lot more traditional hunter in Washington and now maybe even a bit in Oregon that really do not like the thought of allowing Washington hunters the use of sabot and modern projectiles. Once again I believe this move made by Washington was a positive + I am sure that it also played a factor in the increase of rifle hunters making the move to ML again generating more revenue.
So to me.... Scopes -> would the use of a scope, even a limited power scope, allow a more positive chance of a quick humane harvest? And would it reduce the number of wounded animals? To me I am not really sure...
To me this rifle is setup that within Washington rules and with the right circumstances a 150 yard shot on a deer is not really a problem
(https://s26.postimg.org/71i9c8ldl/DSCN0850.jpg)
This is the rifle that I hunt ML seasons with - and again using Washington rules I feel very comfortable choosing a shot on a deer to 150 yards.
(https://s26.postimg.org/c3gkohi9l/ULite_Western.jpg)
So there really is no difference between the two other than my perceived perception as to which might be better for me.
Post by: trophyhunt on March 27, 2017, 10:16:40 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on March 27, 2017, 10:47:40 AM
Sabotloader, you have gave a ton of help to people about muzzle loaders, it's always appreciated. :tup: I'm curious how you feel about NON magnifying scopes on muzzys?
This is just my two cents only... If I were allowed to use a 1X scope I probably would do it. I am not sure it would give me anymore advantage over the system that I am using because when I sight down through the peep to the front sight I really believe I am looking through a 1X scope.
The ONLY reason I might make the move is because I have hunted with scopes 99% of my hunting life and feel more comfortable with them.
I really do not think that I 1X scope s going to increase the effective range of what you can shoot with today when you consider energy and Terminal Performance. The GREAT equalizer remains the you use of cap ignition.
A 1X power scope MAY increase the confidence of some and certainly would/could help keep people with failing eyes in the field a little longer doing something they really really enjoy.
I would also like to think it might reduce the number of poor shots taken - WILL NOT eliminate them but should reduce them.
I guess I am good either way :)
Post by: Skillet on March 27, 2017, 11:07:36 AM
I really do not think that I 1X scope s going to increase the effective range of what you can shoot with today when you consider energy and Terminal Performance. The GREAT equalizer remains the you use of cap ignition.
A 1X power scope MAY increase the confidence of some and certainly would/could help keep people with failing eyes in the field a little longer doing something they really really enjoy.
I would also like to think it might reduce the number of poor shots taken - WILL NOT eliminate them but should reduce them.
I guess I am good either way :)
Isn't the terminal ballistics argument a red herring? You could hang a VX3i w CDS on a muzzleloader, wouldn't change the terminal ballistics. Or the lock time (disagree with the premise that an inline is the same as a sidelock, btw - world of difference in lock time), or the expised nipple, etc.
The argument is the glass will make it a more effective weapon system. Both sides can agree on that, can they not? Isn't that why the question came up? What do you get if you mount glass in place of a traditional sighting system on a traditional weapon? Better light gathering, eliminating the mis-alignment between front and rear sight, repeatability, fine target acquisition. All will go towards making the total package far more effective. To say we owe it to the animals to kill as quickly and humanely as possible brings up a total argument against archery in general. Do we really want to go there? Id bet my last dollar the average time to death from the most primitive muzzleloader is a small fraction of that of the most technologically advanced stick and string.
The fundamental difference is what we believe will happen when these more effective weapons are allowed. World you rather have more, and less crowded, days in the field? More units to choose from? Or would you prefer to move the season towards the modern rifle experience, where there will be far more hunters given far fewer days to kill the same nimber of animals. That is unavoidable if we keep allowing tech creep into what was intended to be primitive weapons seasons.
Post by: grundy53 on March 27, 2017, 11:10:32 AM
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Post by: Sabotloader on March 27, 2017, 11:50:53 AM
I really do not think that I 1X scope s going to increase the effective range of what you can shoot with today when you consider energy and Terminal Performance. The GREAT equalizer remains the you use of cap ignition.
A 1X power scope MAY increase the confidence of some and certainly would/could help keep people with failing eyes in the field a little longer doing something they really really enjoy.
I would also like to think it might reduce the number of poor shots taken - WILL NOT eliminate them but should reduce them.
I guess I am good either way :)
Isn't the terminal ballistics argument a red herring? You could hang a VX3i w CDS on a muzzleloader, wouldn't change the terminal ballistics.
No I believe that 'Terminal Ballistics' is a function of your load - projectile and powder. And then the location of your shot.
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Or the lock time (disagree with the premise that an inline is the same as a sidelock, btw - world of difference in lock time), or the expised nipple, etc.
Not necessarily so... Lock time was an old argument about the differences but todays newer sidehammers have a greatly improved lock time. Several years ago TC changed the design of their locks just specifically to improve lock time. I ended up changing all of my TC locks out to the new lock.
Triggers could be a valid argument - most triggers in todays inline rifle are certainly better. but even then it is fairly easy to re-work a TC trigger.
I think the rules that all three states have in place address the exposed nipple to further reduce the difference between the two platforms. And then as I have stated before if you use a #11 nipple and the correct nipple the exposure to the elements problems go away, for either a sidehammer or a inline.
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The argument is the glass will make it a more effective weapon system. Both sides can agree on that, can they not?
I do not know about all but for some or even a lot you would in my mind be correct! But, isn't that a more positive thing for the animal in the long run.?
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Isn't that why the question came up? What do you get if you mount glass in place of a traditional sighting system on a traditional weapon?
It does not have to be a 'traditional' weapon it could be either. Again in the regulations there is not a place that says you must use a Traditional or Non Traditional rifle. And if you take a close look at history in-lines are not as new as you might think they are.
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Better light gathering, eliminating the mis-alignment between front and rear sight, repeatability, fine target acquisition. All will go towards making the total package far more effective.
Thank you made the point very well and who or what really benefits?
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To say we owe it to the animals to kill as quickly and humanely as possible brings up a total argument against archery in general. Do we really want to go there?
And I agree but that is not what the conversation is about. With the animal rights groups getting larger and stronger we had better get our acts together. The next battle you folks in Washington may be facing is lead free bullets. That will be a political thing also.
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Id bet my last dollar the average time to death from the most primitive muzzleloader is a small fraction of that of the most technologically advanced stick and string.
You also gotta thing the Archery hunters out there think they are the 'True" primitive hunters. I can not argue that that or really even address it - I am not an archery hunter nor do I know the correct methods to go about it.
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The fundamental difference is what we believe will happen when these more effective weapons are allowed. World you rather have more, and less crowded, days in the field? More units to choose from? Or would you prefer to move the season towards the modern rifle experience, where there will be far more hunters given far fewer days to kill the same nimber of animals.
It is very difficult to keep a good thing to exclusive group of people. There really are benefits as well as non-benefits to hunting with a ML. Also remember you are talking about 10-15% of rifle hunters that might try a ML (this as a national number). They are still far more people that believe in the benefits of the centerfire rifle and now even more and more switching to the AR platform which really bugs me...
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That is unavoidable if we keep allowing tech creep into what was intended to be primitive weapons seasons.
I would agree that years ago the ML season were established as possibly 'primitive' seasons. I would then say 'today' the ML seasons in most all states, including Washington is not being managed as a 'primitive' season. It is being managed to serve all ML hunters, traditional and modern, and as a management tool and a revenue source for the State, not to even mention the revenue generated for Sporting Goods Companies.
I really enjoy shooting my collection of sidehammer guns, I was never able to quickly master a rock-sparker. Today even as hooked into the inlines as I am I would never dish my sidehammers. The fact is whatever my Western Inlines can do I can do the same with a most any one of my Lock built TC's. Today you can not even use twist rate as a divider - Lock guns come with a 1-24, 1-28, 1-32, 1-48, and all the way up the line. And they are built with accuracy in mind.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 27, 2017, 12:21:50 PM
I agree with skillet on the glass though. I've shot an eotech a good amount and it is faster, more accurate, less complicated, and more "dummy" proof than any open sight setup.
Like I've said several times before, youtube long range muzzleloader hunting and you can see pretty clearly what a stiff powder charge and good scope will allow a 50 cal muzzy to do. An accurate zero, a trued up ballistic calculator and a small amount of knowledge on form and 300-400 yards wouldn't even be a challenge. Guys are stretching them even farther.
Post by: Skillet on March 27, 2017, 12:56:26 PM
I would like to address the "keeping a good thing to an exclusive group of people" comment. Muzzleloader isn't inherently a good thing, and there is no exclusivity involved. Anybody can buy the gun and OTC tag. Muzzleloading is hard to be successful with for good reason. This was by design when they created the special seasons for muzzleloaders. If you take on muzzleloading, you take on the challenge. By continually letting tech creep impact the spirit of the primitive weapons seasons, we are basically lowering the commitment and acceptance of the challenge that muzzleloading represents. I feel pretty strongly that this constant tech creep represents a bad thing for muzzleloader (and archery) seasons for the reasons I've stated, which is why I am always going to err on the side of "no" when a change that further pushes the weapon system towards modern firearms effectiveness from the original intent of the season.
Post by: Sabotloader on March 27, 2017, 01:47:34 PM
Agree, great discussion, and good points made. Except maybe for BLRMAN's promise that we will all end up bang-flopping mulies at 700 yards, and by the time we walk up on them they will be a pile of cut and wrapped steaks. :chuckle:
I would like to address the "keeping a good thing to an exclusive group of people" comment. Muzzleloader isn't inherently a good thing, and there is no exclusivity involved. Anybody can buy the gun and OTC tag. Muzzleloading is hard to be successful with for good reason. This was by design when they created the special seasons for muzzleloaders. If you take on muzzleloading, you take on the challenge. By continually letting tech creep impact the spirit of the primitive weapons seasons, we are basically lowering the commitment and acceptance of the challenge that muzzleloading represents. I feel pretty strongly that this constant tech creep represents a bad thing for muzzleloader (and archery) seasons for the reasons I've stated, which is why I am always going to err on the side of "no" when a change that further pushes the weapon system towards modern firearms effectiveness from the original intent of the season.
And the point I am making is that the original intent of the season is long gone there in Washington and most all of the States that even offer ML hunting.
What might/should be presented is, there should be units available that are strictly 'Traditional' hunting. How you would guys get that into the scheme with Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife - I have not a clue.
And again as with many States Washington is using a ML season as a management tool with very specific goals. Goals that they feel can not happen and be as controlled with a regular rifle hunt as they can be with a ML hunt. It is a tool! A tool that has proved to be very effective. Why they have moved away from your definition of 'Tradition' ML hunting only they can answer that question. But I would bet it would come down to revenue. Over here we have a huge problem with claims to the Fish and Game of animals destroying crops and field and in Idaho the Fish and Game have to compensate the local land owner. And again here this is a tremendous cost the Fish and Game Department and/or the State of Idaho. Does that occur in Washington?
Here in Idaho, I really believe the Archery hunters have far more control of the seasons than does either the rifle hunter or a ML hunters and we are more primitive than you.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 27, 2017, 03:50:38 PM
I think the main advantage that a non magnified scope would give is the ability to use a reticle with a bullet drop compensator. You can't honestly say that wouldn't help more muzzeloader hunters shoot farther.just pointing out that both of the muzzy's pictured from sabot has adjustable sights that can adjust for bullet drop.not quite the open site set up.with his rifles i venture to say as they are set up a hunter could repeatably take game at longer distances than that of open sights.THESE ARE LEGAL IN WA. :tup:
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Post by: Oh Mah on March 27, 2017, 03:52:22 PM
Post by: floatinghat on March 27, 2017, 04:04:09 PM
Does anyone think that apposes the non mag scope believe these setups are less accurate than a scope?
Depends on the shooter, I know people who are more accurate than I am and I am more accurate than others. I voted no, if you want to use a scope, slap one on a hunt during modern. Or open a primative season for sidelocks with caps and push the inline season back a couple weeks.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 27, 2017, 04:17:28 PM
If you want a covered primer hunt modern then!
Post by: floatinghat on March 27, 2017, 05:01:14 PM
I was just reading the thread "can a knight bighorn 209 be switched to a western legal" thread,Some on there seem to agree that covering the primer is a good idea.Is this sticking to what your arguments are as far as if you want to scope your rifle hunt modern?I guess it depends on what everyone else is saying in the thread as to how your opinion goes.
If you want a covered primer hunt modern then!
yeap, I don't have a problem with an exposed cap. Was out in storms last year during the early and late hunts. Changed caps daily didn't change the load. No problem, one day during the early season we had almost two inches of rain. It was the nastiest day of hunting I have ever experienced. The next morning after i packed up to go home, I pulled the trigger aiming a log about 50yds and boom. Now I an very careful to keep water out, but don't use tape a bag or anything else.
I guess I don't feel the need to make this easier, it is called hunting.
So do you or don't you believe that x1 will extend the distance the average person is willing to take a shot?
Post by: Oh Mah on March 27, 2017, 05:05:50 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on March 27, 2017, 05:15:51 PM
I was just reading the thread "can a knight bighorn 209 be switched to a western legal" thread,Some on there seem to agree that covering the primer is a good idea.Is this sticking to what your arguments are as far as if you want to scope your rifle hunt modern?I guess it depends on what everyone else is saying in the thread as to how your opinion goes.
If you want a covered primer hunt modern then!
Even in the true western Hunter/Trapper period the Mountain Man covered their rifles in inclement weather to protect them. They didn't have the devices we have available today but they did often slide them into a full rifle scabbard. It would be natural for them to be more protective of their rifle than we are today... #1 thing 'Keep your powder dry pilgrim'
So for hunter to protect an open breech should be no surprise to anyone that hunts with a Western legal ML.
Flintlock Frizzen & Pan covers have been around long before any of us and were used by the Mountain Man who needed his rifle to function in any weather
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn2.bigcommerce.com%2Fserver2400%2Frvx8wm%2Fproducts%2F53%2Fimages%2F6159%2F01-525__91344.1402337144.1280.1280.jpg%3Fc%3D2&hash=1c00cb90cbff701b9ff8169117c9c168d04192c0)
Post by: grundy53 on March 27, 2017, 05:22:02 PM
You don't have to manually adjust a bullet drop compensating reticle.I think the main advantage that a non magnified scope would give is the ability to use a reticle with a bullet drop compensator. You can't honestly say that wouldn't help more muzzeloader hunters shoot farther.just pointing out that both of the muzzy's pictured from sabot has adjustable sights that can adjust for bullet drop.not quite the open site set up.with his rifles i venture to say as they are set up a hunter could repeatably take game at longer distances than that of open sights.THESE ARE LEGAL IN WA. :tup:
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Post by: Sabotloader on March 27, 2017, 05:51:40 PM
I think the main advantage that a non magnified scope would give is the ability to use a reticle with a bullet drop compensator. You can't honestly say that wouldn't help more muzzeloader hunters shoot farther.just pointing out that both of the muzzy's pictured from sabot has adjustable sights that can adjust for bullet drop.not quite the open site set up.with his rifles i venture to say as they are set up a hunter could repeatably take game at longer distances than that of open sights.THESE ARE LEGAL IN WA. :tup:
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Especially with the Lyman - you just push the button and adjust the sight to the range of the shot. And returns to 0 range the same way push the button on the rear of the sight and push the sight down to where the 0 screw touches the site base.
(https://s26.postimg.org/hcqhaj4mx/Lyman0Stop.jpg)
With this sight and the right conditions I can easily shoot an elk @ 200 yards and since I have worked on it for so long it doesn't even seem in-natural.
And to help this rifle be more accurate at those longer ranges it the barrel is bedded in the stock
(https://s26.postimg.org/bt92553nd/Rene_Bedding_Composit.jpg)
Post by: Oh Mah on March 27, 2017, 05:55:09 PM