Post by: oldleclercrd on May 22, 2011, 05:01:52 PM
Post by: MDGrand on May 22, 2011, 05:32:22 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on May 22, 2011, 05:39:37 PM
Post by: oldleclercrd on May 22, 2011, 05:40:57 PM
Oh my dear friend, you are gonna get lots of responses on this topic. Lets just say this... I am ALL for allowing expandable broadheads, luminocks, 209 ignitions, etc.. but there are enough people that like the "primitive" way things are done now.
I understand the primitive aspect of what your saying, however an expandible broadhead (in my opinion) just helps to put them down faster and at least for me, they dont jeopardize the whole "up close and personal primitive" part of bowhunting.
Post by: Huntnphish on May 22, 2011, 05:44:44 PM
Post by: oldleclercrd on May 22, 2011, 05:49:51 PM
Post by: Gringo31 on May 22, 2011, 06:59:02 PM
Post by: oldleclercrd on May 22, 2011, 07:11:39 PM
Sounds like if want to see some change and voice you concern you join Washington for Wildlife and work to have a bigger hammer behind your stance than one man talking. :twocents:
Im pretty sure it says "Washington for Wildlife" by my profile pic....
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on May 22, 2011, 07:15:27 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on May 22, 2011, 07:19:27 PM
Post by: KillBilly on May 22, 2011, 07:20:15 PM
Well I guess ill start it off. :chuckle: expandables hinder penetration, there for I will not use them. They are also more prone to failure and that's the last thing I want to have to deal with after putting a shot on the trophy of a life time. When my arrow is on the way I want to know my blades are already deployed. Oh and 2 holes are better than one.
Furthermore the expandable are barbed and will cause death by infection. Most animals can lose, pull out, or rub off a bad shot because fixed blades cannot form a barb. I also would not use them and will continue to vote no on them until they improve them drastically.
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on May 22, 2011, 07:46:12 PM
Post by: oldleclercrd on May 22, 2011, 08:43:48 PM
Post by: oldleclercrd on May 23, 2011, 12:56:56 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on May 23, 2011, 01:10:28 PM
I figured more people would have something to say on this subject :dunno:
Would you support mechanical broadheads if it meant losing more of our hunting season?
I am with KillBilly on the barbed issue, plus is there really a need to use them, fixed blade broadheads are better than ever? There are so many great broadheads that fly like field points today that I don't see why you would need to go to a mechanical head.
Post by: wildmanoutdoors on May 23, 2011, 01:20:45 PM
Post by: O_mykiss on May 23, 2011, 01:55:10 PM
Problem is, mechanical broadheads won't let you shoot any further than the currently legal variety of broadheads. They won't penetrate further. They won't make marginal shot placement into a lethal shot.
Post by: dreamingbig on May 23, 2011, 02:37:01 PM
Post by: bigtex on May 23, 2011, 02:38:08 PM
I would vote against making them legal.
:yeah:
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on May 23, 2011, 02:43:58 PM
They offer no substantial advantage so who cares. If you are worried about wounded game I propose all bowhunters be required to prove their shooting skill before getting a tag with a state mandated test. It's crazy we can't use mechanical broadheads now and there animals getting away with an arrow in them and being wasted. It's not broadhead it's the archer.
Post by: greenhead_killer on May 23, 2011, 03:51:44 PM
Jesus, if you dont like them don't use them. I Promise no one will force you to use them.thats the best statement right there. i think either way is up to the person and what makes them most comfortable, but at the same time, i would vote no on them. yes the mach bh have come a long ways, but it ultimitely comes down to the shooter and more so with mach bh, guys hit shoulder blade or other bone and the bh just blows up. at least with a fix blade there is a fair amount of stability behind it. less moving parts, less is likely to go poof on you.
They offer no substantial advantage so who cares. If you are worried about wounded game I propose all bowhunters be required to prove their shooting skill before getting a tag with a state mandated test. It's crazy we can't use mechanical broadheads now and there animals getting away with an arrow in them and being wasted. It's not broadhead it's the archer.
Post by: Button Nubbs on May 23, 2011, 04:13:12 PM
Another problem is a lot of guys will use light arrows to gain some speed and a light arrow big mech bh is a bad choice imo
Post by: hughjorgan on May 23, 2011, 04:39:06 PM
Jesus, if you dont like them don't use them. I Promise no one will force you to use them.
They offer no substantial advantage so who cares. If you are worried about wounded game I propose all bowhunters be required to prove their shooting skill before getting a tag with a state mandated test. It's crazy we can't use mechanical broadheads now and there animals getting away with an arrow in them and being wasted. It's not broadhead it's the archer.
There seems to be more bad things about mechanicals than positives. The only positive thing is they fly like field points but there are many fixed blades that do the same.
Would those of you that support using mechanicals still support them if it meant archery seasons were shortened?
Post by: ouchfoss on May 23, 2011, 04:59:55 PM
There is a few animals I have lost over the years and after thinking about it, I dont believe any of those situations would have tagged me an animal if I were using expandable BHs. They were nothing more than BAD shots where the arrow did not go where it was supposed to go. If you put an arrow in the boiler room with either BH, you got a dead animal no matter what.
The one advantage I could understand is better accuracy based on the fact the blades are very small when closed which wont let the arrow plane or dip and dive but alot of that problem is nothing more than having a bow that is not tuned properly. My arrow hits right where I aim so I'll choose accuracy over largre cutting diameter everytime. :twocents:
Post by: turkeyfeather on May 23, 2011, 05:05:31 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on May 23, 2011, 06:52:06 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on May 23, 2011, 07:20:29 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on May 23, 2011, 07:22:30 PM
Well this is just my opinion ....THEY ARE JUNK !! Fixed blades only for me .. I have read more disapointment stories about them than happy ones ... :dunno:and for turkeys I say yes but big game NOT !!
Post by: ribka on May 23, 2011, 07:58:26 PM
Post by: rasbo on May 23, 2011, 08:02:35 PM
yeah,then maybe the rifle guys could hunt the rut...
Post by: oldleclercrd on May 23, 2011, 08:03:14 PM
Post by: throttlejocky20 on May 23, 2011, 08:25:23 PM
Post by: JPhelps on May 23, 2011, 08:43:45 PM
The only pro I can see to mechanical broadheads is the larger cutting diameter, which comes at the expense of durability. I will take durability/penetration over a large cutting diameter. I can't think of a shot where the larger blades would have lead to a "deader" elk. :dunno:
Post by: Huntnphish on May 23, 2011, 08:55:07 PM
Would those of you that support using mechanicals still support them if it meant archery seasons were shortened?
Why is it, in these discussions about archery gear, that someone always has to bring this into it. WDFW has never shortened seasons in lieu of, or in exchange for modernization of gear, nor have they ever suggested it would happen.
Lets keep to the facts and refrain from the fear mongering shall we. :twocents:
Post by: h2ofowlr on May 23, 2011, 09:46:41 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on May 23, 2011, 09:58:28 PM
Would those of you that support using mechanicals still support them if it meant archery seasons were shortened?
Why is it, in these discussions about archery gear, that someone always has to bring this into it. WDFW has never shortened seasons in lieu of, or in exchange for modernization of gear, nor have they ever suggested it would happen.
Lets keep to the facts and refrain from the fear mongering shall we. :twocents:
I don't see it as fear mongering at all, just a valid question in the bigger picture of archery seasons. With resource allocation and improved technology being introduced/lobbied for in archery seasons in Washington, such as a mechanical broad heads could have an impact on the number of animals harvested therefore affecting the season setting process in the future if it leads to an increase harvest by archers.
Post by: Armadillo on May 23, 2011, 10:07:21 PM
if you cant make an ethical shot without a crutch, put the bow down please... :twocents: fixed bladed broadheads are more than enough
Post by: steelhead13 on May 23, 2011, 10:09:38 PM
Post by: Armadillo on May 23, 2011, 10:11:58 PM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 23, 2011, 10:14:04 PM
The one complaint I would make is that rifle hunters have dozens of choices for the projectile that leaves their weapon, archers should have that same rightArchers have literally HUNDREDS of choices, If you only shop at Walmart, you might be limited, but really, there are an unlimited amount of choices out there..
personally I use wood, but the choices are, Port Orford Cedar, Douglas Fir, Ash, Chundoo (Sitka Spruce), Norway pine, Ramin, Birch, Maple, Yellow Cedar , Laminated Cedar or Pine, then there is aluminum and various carbon varieties....
This is just the SHAFT...
Then there is Fletching...
I (usually) chose feathers, but the choice of Turkey, duck, goose, or peacock.
as many colors of the rainbow, different cuts, offset, 3 fletch, 4 fletch...... The list goes on...
Vanes, ... well I do not have enough time to go through all the choices of just what you can make an arrow out of, Just look at other guys quivers, rarely does anybody have the same combination, let alone Broadhead choices....literally hundreds of different ones out there,
Post by: CRITTERSTICKER on May 23, 2011, 11:47:28 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on May 24, 2011, 12:04:38 AM
For you guys saying there should be a proficiency course required for bowhunting what do you propose? Like I said before shooting a dot on a flat range is a lot different that taking a shot at an animal when you have that adrenaline dump. Hell, to qualify for master hunter you have to be proficient at 10 20 30 yards with a bow. Don't get much easier that that imo. :twocents:
Post by: Bean Counter on May 24, 2011, 01:19:32 AM
I don't have a desire to use mechanical broad heads but it isn't my issue to create more division in the hunting community. If you want your expanding broadheads then by all means...
Shame on those of you who call yourselves conservatives and howl for such a ban. Even more shame on those of you rifle hunters who would support a ban on a certain piece of archery equipment when you yourself don't even bow hunt! :bash:
Post by: turkeyfeather on May 24, 2011, 06:53:05 AM
Post by: 724wd on May 24, 2011, 12:28:03 PM
Post by: turkeyfeather on May 24, 2011, 12:50:40 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on May 24, 2011, 01:01:17 PM
Post by: Maverick on May 24, 2011, 01:03:01 PM
Post by: h20hunter on May 24, 2011, 01:07:39 PM
Post by: Maverick on May 24, 2011, 01:12:30 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on May 24, 2011, 01:14:03 PM
Post by: Arrowhead on May 24, 2011, 01:33:33 PM
Some might say that they are not traditional and shouldn't be allowed. Well that is fine with me as long as we make it EQUAL across the board. We can make archery strictly use traditional equipment as long as modern rifle is strictly traditional also. That means NO SCOPES and most importantly we can go back to the original calibers - 22LR, 44, and 45LC. Or hell with it, we can go all the way back to muzzleloaders only.
:twocents:
Post by: h20hunter on May 24, 2011, 01:36:59 PM
Post by: Arrowhead on May 24, 2011, 01:39:14 PM
Post by: dscubame on May 24, 2011, 01:43:16 PM
I would vote no for big game and yes for turkeys. Archery is suppose to be a big challenge. That's why you guys get a month to hunt and first chance at the bucks. You shouldn't need mechanical broad heads too. How about the game department just round the bucks up in a small fenced area for you as well? Or would you want them to leash the bucks up to the fence too? Keep it a challenge guys. You should be happy you can use all the nice fancy compund bows out there. You should be using a recurve like the old days. All the crap out there for bows that you can use in the state along with the nice early long season isn't good enough for you? If not then switch to muzzy or rifle. I hate to be mean about it and sorry if I offend anybody but good lord how greedy do you need to be? I modern firearm hunt for deer. Next year I'll most likely be archery hunting. And I'll have a compound bow like the rest of you and I'll be thrilled to use fixed arrows because of how they work and I'll know that if a buck gets away then it's because of me. Not the gear I have. Nuff said. The only thing I wish the law would change just a little. Is the electronics on a bow not being legal. I wish they would change that to where it is legal to have a video camera mounted on your bow. When they made the law I don't think they hought of that ever being a possibility.
Did not realize we had almighty greatness within our community. :kneel:
Post by: spookgus on May 24, 2011, 02:11:20 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on May 24, 2011, 03:29:12 PM
I would vote no for big game and yes for turkeys. Archery is suppose to be a big challenge. That's why you guys get a month to hunt and first chance at the bucks. You shouldn't need mechanical broad heads too. How about the game department just round the bucks up in a small fenced area for you as well? Or would you want them to leash the bucks up to the fence too? Keep it a challenge guys. You should be happy you can use all the nice fancy compund bows out there. You should be using a recurve like the old days. All the crap out there for bows that you can use in the state along with the nice early long season isn't good enough for you? If not then switch to muzzy or rifle. I hate to be mean about it and sorry if I offend anybody but good lord how greedy do you need to be? I modern firearm hunt for deer. Next year I'll most likely be archery hunting. And I'll have a compound bow like the rest of you and I'll be thrilled to use fixed arrows because of how they work and I'll know that if a buck gets away then it's because of me. Not the gear I have. Nuff said. The only thing I wish the law would change just a little. Is the electronics on a bow not being legal. I wish they would change that to where it is legal to have a video camera mounted on your bow. When they made the law I don't think they hought of that ever being a possibility.yeah bud join the bowhunters ...it takes more skill to harvest with a bow than a rifle .. I get tired of everyone complaining about the seasons .. and being a bowhunter religiously for 30 yrs I am rifle hunting this year just because most of the rut has taken place before the late bow season opens and If I can get a permit their will be big blacktail going down !!! actually pumped over it !! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Did not realize we had almighty greatness within our community. :kneel:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on May 24, 2011, 03:34:45 PM
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on May 24, 2011, 03:37:11 PM
I would vote no for big game and yes for turkeys. Archery is suppose to be a big challenge. That's why you guys get a month to hunt and first chance at the bucks. You shouldn't need mechanical broad heads too. How about the game department just round the bucks up in a small fenced area for you as well? Or would you want them to leash the bucks up to the fence too? Keep it a challenge guys. You should be happy you can use all the nice fancy compund bows out there. You should be using a recurve like the old days. All the crap out there for bows that you can
use in the state along with the nice early long season isn't good enough for you? If not then switch to muzzy or rifle. I hate to be mean about it
and sorry if I offend anybody but good lord how greedy do you need to be? I modern firearm hunt for deer. Next year I'll most likely be archery hunting. And I'll have a compound bow like the rest of you and I'll be thrilled to use fixed arrows because of how they work and I'll know that if a buck gets away then it's because of me. Not the gear I have. Nuff said. The only thing I wish the law would change just a little. Is the electronics on a bow not being legal. I wish they would change that to where it is legal to have a video camera mounted on your bow. When they made the law I don't think they hought of that ever being a possibility.
Are the mechanical broadheads your talking about heat seeking?! Where do I get these, that would be easy!!
Post by: Gringo31 on May 24, 2011, 03:41:34 PM
Quote
I hate to be mean about it and sorry if I offend anybody but good lord how greedy do you need to be?
I sincere apology doesn't have the word "but" after it...... ;)
This debate will never end. Everyone thinks everyone else has an advantage and therefore it's not fair. How about this.....what makes it fair is that we all have the choice to pick a weapon. The use of expandable broadheads in my opinion is a "where do you draw the line" on a "primitive weapon" question. Some states have scoped muzzleloaders with a closed breech. Where do you draw the line? You can watch hunting shows where they brag about 1000+ yard shots...is that unfair? What about scent killer, gps, binos, range finders etc. While I think this topic can be interesting to discuss, the all to common mud slinging and separation or division within the hunting community sucks.
Post by: Snapshot on May 24, 2011, 04:01:45 PM
They have improved the technology but they still haven’t made one that cannot fail.
If we need improved technology to get our arrow to fly we shouldn't be hunting with arrows. Primitive man used stone broadheads and he also knew how to follow a bloodtrail; he didn’t need a gaping hole.
Huntnphish wrote: “Why is it, in these discussions about archery gear that someone always has to bring (losing opportunity) into it. WDFW has never shortened seasons in lieu of, or in exchange for modernization of gear, nor have they ever suggested it would happen.”
Baloney! Around three or four years ago I was asked pointblank by Commissioner Perry during public testimony at a WDFW Commission meeting, “Aren’t you guys concerned about all this technology that is out there now? Aren’t you concerned that you might become too effective? Where are you going to draw the line?”
A bow and arrow set-up that requires arrows costing $15-$20 each is also a choice. Everyone is free to use the 30 cent bullet option (see above).
The current rules prohibit certain gadgets and wanting to change those rules creates division in the hunting community. I say shame on those of you who call for unity and then support changing our state’s archery hunting image.
Arrowhead wrote: “If loss of game due to broadhead performance and reliability is a factor, why are they permitted in other states? Why have they been such a hit and are being preferred everywhere else?”
They are not allowed everywhere else. Eastern states can’t find ways to kill ENOUGH deer; they have too many deer. They welcome any advancement in technology that will make men more effective at killing deer; not better hunters, mind you, just more effective killers of deer. Washington doesn’t compare in that regard... Never has.
Mandatory bowhunter education (and not proficiency testing) is a topic worthy of discussion!
Post by: turkeyfeather on May 24, 2011, 04:14:06 PM
Post by: Maverick on May 24, 2011, 04:40:26 PM
Post by: turkeyfeather on May 24, 2011, 04:57:23 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on May 24, 2011, 07:08:08 PM
Post by: steelhead13 on May 24, 2011, 09:40:54 PM
Post by: oldleclercrd on May 24, 2011, 10:03:47 PM
Post by: Huntnphish on May 24, 2011, 10:38:43 PM
Huntnphish wrote: “Why is it, in these discussions about archery gear that someone always has to bring this into it. WDFW has never shortened seasons in lieu of, or in exchange for modernization of gear, nor have they ever suggested it would happen.”
Baloney! Around three or four years ago I was asked pointblank by Commissioner Perry during public testimony at a WDFW Commission meeting, “Aren’t you guys concerned about all this technology that is out there now? Aren’t you concerned that you might become too effective? Where are you going to draw the line?”
Thanks for proving my point Snapshot, nowhere in their "point blank" questions to you did they suggest that additional gear would result in the loss of seasons. 8)
Post by: dscubame on May 25, 2011, 12:14:12 PM
Post by: h20hunter on May 25, 2011, 12:30:33 PM
Post by: MDGrand on May 25, 2011, 12:37:11 PM
Do you think that be allowing more technology for archery equipment in WA, i.e. expanding broadheads, luminocks, illuminated sights, etc.. would lead to MORE archery hunters?
Post by: h20hunter on May 25, 2011, 12:43:41 PM
I don't think the items mentioned would do so. I think that with the effeciency of bows and options for equipment available currently there is plenty to draw hunters in. I think a lot of bow hunters start out as rifle/muzzy or other types of hunting such as shotguns for turkey. I would agree that there is always somebody looking for the latest and greatest but not necessarly new hunters.
What would bring in 'em in....that is another thread and discussion.
Post by: NWBREW on May 25, 2011, 12:52:56 PM
It really makes me wonder how much some people actually research and know about subjects before they open their mouths or in this case type their thoughts. I know a s&*& storm will probably be started by this comment. Anyone, and I do mean ANYONE, from a 5 yr old to an 90 yr old can sit back with a rifle and pick off any game they want from a couple hundred yards. Typical bowhunting is 50 yards or less, in my experience anyways. You have to have a little more skill, not necessarily in shooting, but in stalking, reading the animals activity and such. :twocents:
I do not agree with that statement and you know it is total B.S.. How do I know?......Like many on this site I have done both and I have an 80 year old father. You do not have to have a "little more skill" just a different kind of skill. Anytime one of these threads come up and all knowing people start saying...it's easier to hunt rifle or it's easier to hunt bow...just really chaps my hide. It doesn't matter how you hunt (bow, rifle or muzzy), just what you make of your hunt and the knowledge you have that will make it easier or harder. That's my :twocents:
Oh, and I really do not have a preference about fixed or mech. I will probably stay with fixed but would love to see luminocks legal.
Post by: O_mykiss on May 25, 2011, 01:20:46 PM
I do not believe and have not seen evidence that a mechanical broadhead will be as consistently effective as a fixed blade on game animals which we are ALL stewards of. Therefore, I will not support their use.
Post by: h2ofowlr on May 25, 2011, 01:56:16 PM
I don't know why we can't use them. But the thing is if you know how to shoot a bow and know where you are hitting with your bow, the fixed blade broadheads are enough to get the job done everytime.The reason we are not allowed to use them is due to the original designs and testing that was completed. They were a mechanical devise which would fail upon testing at different stages. Is this old test data, yes. They have improved greatly. The likely hood of a failure today is less likely. They didn't legalize it due to those reasons amongst others. They didn't want arrows passing through big game where the broadheads didn't open.
As mentioned fixed blades will get the job done. Depending on which mechanical broadhead you use you can cut twice the hole in the animal. Then again if you make a poor shot and hit bone you will not get the penetration needed to down the animal and you have a wounded animal running around where the broadhead will not work it’s way back out. Another reason why the broadheads aren’t barbed as well. A bad shot may lead to a chance of survival for the animal. For tracking reason mechanical’s make all the sense in the world. There can be a painted trail to the downed animal if hit correctly.
Post by: Button Nubbs on May 25, 2011, 02:00:58 PM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 25, 2011, 03:09:57 PM
Post by: wildmanoutdoors on May 25, 2011, 03:39:20 PM
Now were getting into the thick of this thread. :chuckle:
Post by: Snapshot on May 25, 2011, 04:18:28 PM
Thanks for proving my point Snapshot, nowhere in their "point blank" questions to you did they suggest that additional gear would result in the loss of seasons. 8)
I did not prove your point.
Since that meeting we lost the last week of early deer season, did we not? And we lost the first several days of the late deer season, did we not? And we lost one day of the early elk season, did we not? We will never know whether the commissioner's line of questioning on that day influenced the whacking our seasons took or not. But the seed had been planted that it was getting too easy to take big game with the gear we use. When they were told that bowhunters were killing more than our share of big bulls and big bucks they took away some of our opportunity to be in woods.
Post by: steelhead13 on May 25, 2011, 04:31:15 PM
Post by: Huntnphish on May 25, 2011, 07:47:20 PM
I did not prove your point.
Since that meeting we lost the last week of early deer season, did we not? And we lost the first several days of the late deer season, did we not? And we lost one day of the early elk season, did we not? We will never know whether the commissioner's line of questioning on that day influenced the whacking our seasons took or not. But the seed had been planted that it was getting too easy to take big game with the gear we use. When they were told that bowhunters were killing more than our share of big bulls and big bucks they took away some of our opportunity to be in woods.
All speculation and assumption on your part Snapshot. The facts are you have zero evidence, documentation or proof that WDFW shortened the seasons for gear. I suppose they shortened the modern season and backed it up a week in lieu of improved scopes, long range rifles and better ballistic coefficients too huh?
Same thing for muzzy hunters, they lost a couple days too but it had nothing to do with improved gear!!
Conspiracy theorists unite. :chuckle:
Post by: Lowedog on May 25, 2011, 07:59:48 PM
Post by: Huntnphish on May 25, 2011, 08:04:36 PM
So now we shouldn't use mech BH's because they will increase the take on game? :chuckle: That's funny!
:chuckle:
If you want to be concerned about technologies effect on big game Snapshot, perhaps you should focus your attention on the internet. Arguably, its had a bigger effect than any modern archery gear ever has or will. :twocents:
Post by: bearpaw on May 25, 2011, 08:45:14 PM
He snuck his mechanicals out hunting. Wounded a big bull elk and a big mule deer buck, just not enough penetration. I also don't like the idea of relying on a mechanical action to open them. :twocents:
Post by: Lowedog on May 25, 2011, 09:02:16 PM
Not saying I am for them nor do I really have a desire to use them but there is probably as many animals killed with expandables as there is fixed each year.
Post by: NWBREW on May 26, 2011, 01:24:17 AM
Post by: Huntnphish on May 26, 2011, 02:10:36 AM
I voted yes for this one reason.......choice. I probably won't use them but that would be MY choice. :twocents:
I will not be changing from my fixed blades either, but like you, don't like someone else telling me what I can and can not use, based on their own personal beliefs.
Post by: MDGrand on May 26, 2011, 07:49:21 AM
They are illegal in Idaho, I had a hunter show up with them from back east where they are popular. I told him to go to town and get some fixed blade broadheads. He went and bought the new broadheads but didn't use them.
He snuck his mechanicals out hunting. Wounded a big bull elk and a big mule deer buck, just not enough penetration. I also don't like the idea of relying on a mechanical action to open them. :twocents:
Hey BearPaw... how long ago was this? Just curious...
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on May 26, 2011, 07:58:22 AM
The logic of some people amazes me. What's next, you gonna tell us we can't drink certain types of beer or eat certain cuts of steaks. What would this world be like if we made everything we don't understand illegal?
Post by: Machias on May 26, 2011, 08:00:25 AM
Post by: Machias on May 26, 2011, 08:05:27 AM
You know what screw personal choice, I hate mud tires. All terrains are much better and are safer in the winter. They tear up my hunting roads, give d bags a reason to die huge trucks, they are noisy and dumb. I vote we make those illegal. Sure I'll never buy them or use them myself, but I don't want anyone else using them cause I don't like them.
The logic of some people amazes me. What's next, you gonna tell us we can't drink certain types of beer or eat certain cuts of steaks. What would this world be like if we made everything we don't understand illegal?
Well that's the problem with your argument, we do understand mechanicals....that's why they have been illegal, they are PRONE TO FAIL! Have they gotten better with some models on deer size game, yes they have. Are you going to allow just the ones that have a near perfect working record or are you going to allow even the POS mechanicals?
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 26, 2011, 08:27:59 AM
This is always misunderstood, when they were first declared illegal had NOTHING to do with dependability or anything else, it had to do with the barbed aspect.
There are/were several fixed blade broadheads that were in use at the time that also became illegal due to the same restriction.
it is only recently, AFTER the rule, that they have proven dependable/undependable.
Popular on the east coast FOR DEER SIZED GAME, some have been used effectively on larger game, but sure, you put an arrow where it is supposed to go, and you can kill anything.
It really is only a matter of time before they are allowed in this state, just due to the fact this subject comes up all the time shows that it will not go away.
I will never use them myself, but then I will never use a compound again either, that is my choice.
Post by: Snapshot on May 26, 2011, 12:18:33 PM
Stiknstringbow hit the point exactly, as had others further up the thread, that any barbed design is not legal in Washington. The reason is so that the arrow has a chance to back itself out of the wound channel in the case of a non-lethal hit. What is so wrong about that?!
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 26, 2011, 02:31:19 PM
Quote
I think too many people put their “right to do this” and right to do that” on a pedestal and think “To hell” with what may be necessary to preserve our heritage of hunting; they care only how best to “whack ‘em” and don’t care that the once proud image of hunters has been wrecked.Heritage, Image, it all is just a product of time......
Used to be a few guys that wanted to use bows to hunt with, fought for the privilege, just to be allowed to do it, they made their own stuff because there was nobody making it.
A few saw the possibilities and started companies that specialized in Archery supplies, pretty soon anybody could buy bows, arrows etc..
One of the fathers of the sport, Fred Bear, even (in his later years) advocated the use of "pods" (poison delivery broadheads), because he felt that too few archers were skilled enough to pursue the sport w/o too many wounded and unrecovered animals ( this was after he, himself, lost a couple bears he had shot) and was worried that the future of archery was in danger.
He was not supported by the majority of Archers at the time, and "The Pod" vanished into obscurity.......
Expandable BH's are here to stay, who knows, maybe they will be legal in the future, perhaps "The Pod" will make a resurgence.....
Personally I hope not.
I do support MANDATORY NBEF training to hunt with Archery equipment, including proficiency testing.
Post by: Huntnphish on May 26, 2011, 03:07:39 PM
I think too many people put their “right to do this” and right to do that” on a pedestal and think “To hell” with what may be necessary to preserve our heritage of hunting;
The same can be said for preserving our way of life, now we have Michelle Obama saying I can't feed my kids a Big Mac if I want to because its not healthy. What the hell is this country coming to when the ideals of a few opinionated do gooders are forced down the throats of everyone else? If I want to feed my kid a big mac it should be my choice and my kids choice.
If you don't want to use mechanicals Snapshot then don't. If you don't want to use lumenoks then don't, but don't spew rhetoric, personal theory and lies just to suit your own ideal of what hunting should be, and your agenda. Hunters should be able to choose for themselves what gear they will use, not have their choices reduced because you believe the only gear that is worthy of hunting is trad gear. :twocents:
Stiknstringbow hit the point exactly, as had others further up the thread, that any barbed design is not legal in Washington. The reason is so that the arrow has a chance to back itself out of the wound channel in the case of a non-lethal hit. What is so wrong about that?!
I agree 100% but its not our right to tell others they can't use them, they should be able to make that decision on their own.
Post by: Machias on May 26, 2011, 03:29:44 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 26, 2011, 03:33:50 PM
So no lines at all, anything goes, no limitations what so ever, it is completely up to each individual. You don't want ANY limitations at all??
Agreed. There are rules for everything. If you want to do the activity, you have to obey the rules.
Post by: Arrowhead on May 26, 2011, 03:35:27 PM
Maybe some of you should take this to heart and realize that the "way things are here in Washington" aren't necessarily the best. Maybe there is A LOT OF ROOM for improvement. Maybe, just MAYBE, the states that produce Record Book animals almost yearly, that promote the hunting and fishing opportunities, and DONT REGULATE IT TO THE POINT OF MAKING IT A NUISANCE, have learned something.
Post by: Huntnphish on May 26, 2011, 03:36:43 PM
So no lines at all, anything goes, no limitations what so ever, it is completely up to each individual. You don't want ANY limitations at all??
No Fred, there has to be rules of course but the rules should not be dictated by such a small portion of the overall archery community.
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 26, 2011, 03:38:06 PM
I think too many people put their “right to do this” and right to do that” on a pedestal and think “To hell” with what may be necessary to preserve our heritage of hunting;
The same can be said for preserving our way of life, now we have Michelle Obama saying I can't feed my kids a Big Mac if I want to because its not healthy. What the hell is this country coming to when the ideals of a few opinionated do gooders are forced down the throats of everyone else? If I want to feed my kid a big mac it should be my choice and my kids choice.
If you don't want to use mechanicals Snapshot then don't. If you don't want to use lumenoks then don't, but don't spew rhetoric, personal theory and lies just to suit your own ideal of what hunting should be, and your agenda. Hunters should be able to choose for themselves what gear they will use, not have their choices reduced because you believe the only gear that is worthy of hunting is trad gear. :twocents:Stiknstringbow hit the point exactly, as had others further up the thread, that any barbed design is not legal in Washington. The reason is so that the arrow has a chance to back itself out of the wound channel in the case of a non-lethal hit. What is so wrong about that?!
I agree 100% but its not our right to tell others they can't use them, they should be able to make that decision on their own.
This is not a well thought out argument. If someone thinks they should be able to hunt at night with a spotlight, they should be able to because it's not our right to tell them no? C'mon, really? What if someone wants to use explosive broadheads or tracer rounds? I know I'm exaggerating, but the point is that there are rules, most of them for a reason, that you must follow to hunt. If you don't like them then petition the government for change or don't hunt. It's pretty easy. Otherwise, do what you want anyway and pay the price when caught.
Post by: Machias on May 26, 2011, 03:40:54 PM
Just to put things into perspective..... When looking nation wide, what are the states with the largest game industries? Too include non resident hunting licenses, outfitters, animals taken, RECORD ANIMALS taken, etc etc etc. In 30 years of traveling the US, I've never once had someone say - Man I want to go hunt Washington!
Maybe some of you should take this to heart and realize that the "way things are here in Washington" aren't necessarily the best. Maybe there is A LOT OF ROOM for improvement. Maybe, just MAYBE, the states that produce Record Book animals almost yearly, that promote the hunting and fishing opportunities, and DONT REGULATE IT TO THE POINT OF MAKING IT A NUISANCE, have learned something.
That's gotta be it, if only we'd allow lumenocks and mechanicals we'd have lots of non-residents pouring into to hunt this state.....maybe will just keep the restrictions. I know I know that was really a smartass remark. I believe the problems with this state are unrelated to equipment restrictions, but that's just my :twocents: . You guys do realize that the WDFW didn't just arbitraily make these restrictions, they have over the years asked for and received guidiance from the various user groups.
Post by: Machias on May 26, 2011, 03:42:37 PM
So no lines at all, anything goes, no limitations what so ever, it is completely up to each individual. You don't want ANY limitations at all??
No Fred, there has to be rules of course but the rules should not be dictated by such a small portion of the overall archery community.
Phish, the MAJORITY of bowhunters are the ones who requested the restrictions. Even this thread the guy who started was shocked that the majority of bowhunters do not want mechanicals.
Post by: Huntnphish on May 26, 2011, 04:04:14 PM
This is not a well thought out argument. If someone thinks they should be able to hunt at night with a spotlight, they should be able to because it's not our right to tell them no? C'mon, really? What if someone wants to use explosive broadheads or tracer rounds? I know I'm exaggerating, but the point is that there are rules, most of them for a reason, that you must follow to hunt. If you don't like them then petition the government for change or don't hunt. It's pretty easy. Otherwise, do what you want anyway and pay the price when caught.
Since the topic of the thread was on mechanical broadheads I didn't think it necessary to include spotlights, explosive broadheads or tracers, I guess I assumed we could all keep it real. :dunno:
Post by: Huntnphish on May 26, 2011, 04:10:06 PM
You guys do realize that the WDFW didn't just arbitraily make these restrictions, they have over the years asked for and received guidiance from the various user groups.
I hear ya Fred and like I said I wouldn't use them if they were legal. To my point though, the "user groups" you are talking about have been giving their opinions to WDFW but its not always the popular opinion of the user group as a whole that is relayed to F&W but rather the opinion of the board members. They may tell you they are speaking for the group however its not always how the majority of that group would vote, thats the problem I have with it.
Post by: Button Nubbs on May 26, 2011, 04:13:36 PM
Post by: Machias on May 26, 2011, 04:17:54 PM
You guys do realize that the WDFW didn't just arbitraily make these restrictions, they have over the years asked for and received guidiance from the various user groups.
I hear ya Fred and like I said I wouldn't use them if they were legal. To my point though, the "user groups" you are talking about have been giving their opinions to WDFW but its not always the popular opinion of the user group as a whole that is relayed to F&W but rather the opinion of the board members. They may tell you they are speaking for the group however its not always how the majority of that group would vote, thats the problem I have with it.
Understood, if the groups are relaying one thing and the leadership relays their own personal views which goes against the majority then I would think it would be time for new leadership. :hello:
Post by: Huntnphish on May 26, 2011, 04:22:15 PM
Understood, if the groups are relaying one thing and the leadership relays their own personal views which goes against the majority then I would think it would be time for new leadership. :hello:
Ah, there in lies the problem my friend, not all of the "user groups" board members are voted in by the members themselves, but rather voted in by other like minded board members. ;)
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 26, 2011, 05:01:45 PM
Just to put things into perspective..... When looking nation wide, what are the states with the largest game industries? Too include non resident hunting licenses, outfitters, animals taken, RECORD ANIMALS taken, etc etc etc. In 30 years of traveling the US, I've never once had someone say - Man I want to go hunt Washington!
Maybe some of you should take this to heart and realize that the "way things are here in Washington" aren't necessarily the best. Maybe there is A LOT OF ROOM for improvement. Maybe, just MAYBE, the states that produce Record Book animals almost yearly, that promote the hunting and fishing opportunities, and DONT REGULATE IT TO THE POINT OF MAKING IT A NUISANCE, have learned something.
I understand what you're saying, I just think you've missed the mark a bit. People decide where they'll hunt out of state based pretty much solely on how high their chance of success is. The rules mean squat and most people don't know them until after they buy their tags anyway. But we digress. The major reason people don't hunt WA more from out of state is that there are places to hunt that have higher success rates. We don't have near the herds of the other NW states. I wouldn't Choose WA over MT or CO, even OR.
I'm not under the impression that WA hunting laws are the way I'd like them. They're not. But some of them have been put in place for good reason and only after extensive study. I don't agree with the mechanical ban, but I understand it and why it was implemented, and it's no skin off my butt to shoot fixed broadheads.
Were I to go to the state about bad regs, I'd start with the shrinking muzzle and archery seasons right out of the shoot. Mechanicals is way down the list.
Post by: Machias on May 26, 2011, 05:13:42 PM
Were I to go to the state about bad regs, I'd start with the shrinking muzzle and archery seasons right out of the shoot. Mechanicals is way down the list.
You archery hunt? And you want to shorten the already short seasons? Purt near every other state in the Union is expanding archery and muzzle seasons and you want to shorten ours? :dunno: Please don't attend any of the meetings. ;)
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 26, 2011, 05:19:50 PM
Were I to go to the state about bad regs, I'd start with the shrinking muzzle and archery seasons right out of the shoot. Mechanicals is way down the list.
You archery hunt? And you want to shorten the already short seasons? Purt near every other state in the Union is expanding archery and muzzle seasons and you want to shorten ours? :dunno: Please don't attend any of the meetings. ;)
You misunderstood my comment Machias. Take a breath. I was saying there are bigger fish to fry than mechanical broadheads. I was saying pick your fights. I would start with requesting that the archery and muzzle seasons be brought back to their original length from three years ago, or be even longer. You and I agree on this.
Post by: Machias on May 26, 2011, 05:29:49 PM
Gotcha!
Post by: Snapshot on May 26, 2011, 05:38:30 PM
This thread is about mechanical broadheads...what about keeping it real?
[Game time...later]
Post by: Huntnphish on May 26, 2011, 05:40:40 PM
Post by: Lowedog on May 26, 2011, 05:43:07 PM
Modern seasons have been shortened and backed up as well, mostly in the name of revenue by attempting to give back with permit hunts.
Cha Ching! Same goes for archery and muzzy.
Post by: MDGrand on May 26, 2011, 07:23:59 PM
.. I have learned a bit from this thread.. I did not consider the "barbed" aspect. Although, I am wondering at any rate how a fixed blade broad head would "work itself out." I bet that is pretty '"f"ing difficult and damn near impossible. BUT hell, if some one has seen it happen, cool.
All that being said, I am wondering from the "failure" arguement how new broadheads stack up? I know MT allows expandable broadheads.. that says a lot.
Overall, I feel the regs are influenced a bit too much when it comes to items such as these... it is a slippery slope either way, and I get the whole analogy of "well hell lets just use explosives then!..." But come'on somethings I think are just a bit too nit picky. i.e. luminocks and 209 ignitions.
If their is a fear that by allowing more technology then the seasons will shrink or more people will be in your honey hole then we really should be attacking the real issue and I humbly suggest that over-the-counter tags are the problem. I know some of you love them.. but this creats and opens the door to a lot of novice hunters that are there for the beer and the comaraderie as opposed to guys like us that are on the board whom are very passionate about it.
I know I opened the door to some other issues.. but that is just my :twocents:
Post by: ribka on May 26, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
I just want to point out the poll is getting VERY close! :)
.. I have learned a bit from this thread.. I did not consider the "barbed" aspect. Although, I am wondering at any rate how a fixed blade broad head would "work itself out." I bet that is pretty '"f"ing difficult and damn near impossible. BUT hell, if some one has seen it happen, cool.
All that being said, I am wondering from the "failure" arguement how new broadheads stack up? I know MT allows expandable broadheads.. that says a lot.
Overall, I feel the regs are influenced a bit too much when it comes to items such as these... it is a slippery slope either way, and I get the whole analogy of "well hell lets just use explosives then!..." But come'on somethings I think are just a bit too nit picky. i.e. luminocks and 209 ignitions.
If their is a fear that by allowing more technology then the seasons will shrink or more people will be in your honey hole then we really should be attacking the real issue and I humbly suggest that over-the-counter tags are the problem. I know some of you love them.. but this creats and opens the door to a lot of novice hunters that are there for the beer and the comaraderie as opposed to guys like us that are on the board whom are very passionate about it.
I know I opened the door to some other issues.. but that is just my :twocents:
So you're saying only self-proclaimed "Pro Hunters" like you should be allowed to hunt?
I am not a "pro " but only a "novice" with only 35 plus years experience in the field. Maybe someday I can be a "sponsored pro hunter" I have always dreamt of being a sponsored pro hunter/shooter for the "butt-out" tool 8)
I think have a one week season deer elk where any weapon or technology is allowed. Maybe use some of the recent military research and technology in today's hunting. The drone technology combined with an infra-red heart seeking arrow with scent block vanes might hold some promise. Maybe allow "hunters" to tag game animals in the off season with RFID's and use a GPS tracking device to find them when the one week season is open. Sometimes I am just too tired to pull back my bow during archery season. I think cocking devices should be allowed too on bows. And maybe I feel like taking the 300 mag out during archery elk season too.
Please do not attack me as I am expressing my opinion and think hunters should be allowed their freedom of choice of technology when hunting :twocents:
Post by: Lowedog on May 26, 2011, 07:52:24 PM
Post by: jstone on May 26, 2011, 08:34:15 PM
Post by: MDGrand on May 26, 2011, 08:42:01 PM
What I mean is the Joe six pack hunter who buys a tag cuz he can. maybe if the tag was a bit more selective I think we would get the caliber of hunter everyone (ikcluding you ribka) thinks they are.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on May 26, 2011, 09:13:56 PM
Post by: h2ofowlr on May 26, 2011, 09:22:23 PM
The item that will create shorter seasons for archery hunters is the technology of the bow. 15 years ago I thought I had a great bow at 225 fps. I now have a new one that shoots about 330 fps. I can pretty much use my 20 yard pin out to 40 yards. At home I practice 60-100 yards. If I can calm the heart beat and do lots of practice and get it dialed in and the arrows and fletching all tuned, the 30 yard and less shots I take on game are very simple. The technology is there where individuals can stretch there shots these days. 10 years ago you wouldn’t mention it as individuals would blow a fuse at the thought of a 60-70 yard shot. Now many individuals talk about those shots. The challenge is those that don’t practice and animals that may jump the string. % of potential bad shots increase substantially. Mechanical or fixed discussion is small potatoes compared to what the guys are shooting these days. We went from 65% let off to everyone now using 80% let off on there new bows. Better arrow, better tips, better sights.
Then you get multi-season tags and a rifle hunter thinks he can go buy a used bow, and mail order muzzle loader and he’s the real deal. Things are changing. I talked to 5 different individuals last year that had shot and lost animals in the Winston unit alone with fixed broadheads. There is a lot more factors to examine than the broadheads. The best thing they could do is allow luminox. Then people could actually see where there shot hits an animal as it is tough seeing the arrow fly with these fast bows. Then people would know how long to wait depending on where there shot hit, so they didn’t push the animals and loose them.
Post by: ribka on May 26, 2011, 10:07:00 PM
My opinion is the new technology will draw more of these type of hunters to the primitive sport of archery and encourage even more long range shots :twocents: Always find a lot of dead elk during the archery season shot in the hind quarters or stomach.
Post by: Machias on May 26, 2011, 10:33:58 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on May 27, 2011, 02:00:44 AM
I see all of my shots fine and I use flourescent fletching. Don't see how guys taking unethical shots and being able to see their shot hit the elk in the ass or stomach using lumenocks do any good. Guys taking these shots are typically poor woodsmen too and do not know the first thing about the proper tracking of wounded animals.Meet these types every year in early and late archery bragging about how many animals they stuck at 70 plus yds and never recovered. Poke and hope hunters.ya I agree too !!! I know many target shooters who can hit paper but cant hit there a$$ when it comes to deer or elk ..knock on wood in 30 + plus years of bow hunting I only lost one deer and it was because I called two bucks in and they started fighting I got alittle excited and shot to quick thinking they would take off when they finished and hit one high and just below the spine ..never got him and not sure it even killed him !
My opinion is the new technology will draw more of these type of hunters to the primitive sport of archery and encourage even more long range shots :twocents: Always find a lot of dead elk during the archery season shot in the hind quarters or stomach.
Post by: Lowedog on May 27, 2011, 04:31:54 AM
I see all of my shots fine and I use flourescent fletching. Don't see how guys taking unethical shots and being able to see their shot hit the elk in the ass or stomach using lumenocks do any good. Guys taking these shots are typically poor woodsmen too and do not know the first thing about the proper tracking of wounded animals.Meet these types every year in early and late archery bragging about how many animals they stuck at 70 plus yds and never recovered. Poke and hope hunters.
My opinion is the new technology will draw more of these type of hunters to the primitive sport of archery and encourage even more long range shots :twocents: Always find a lot of dead elk during the archery season shot in the hind quarters or stomach.
No where in the regs does it say archery seasons are primitive. That is a tired argument. I have been hunting archery since 1991 and the only thing that has changed is an increased amount of people hunting the late mule deer hunts. The reason most people I have talked to switched to archery is because of a perceived better opportunity to take a nice buck during the rut because of the timing of the season. That and the multi season tags. It has little to do with technology. 20 years ago there were a ton of archery hunters lobbing arrows at distances way beyond their abilities also. We actually found more dead unrecovered animals back in the 90's than these days. It is not a new problem with archery hunting. There always has been and always will be those that take ridiculous shots at animals and it isn't exclusive to compound users.
In my opinion WDFW needs to make the rut seasons for archery permit only. No more general season rut hunts will send a lot of people back to rifle hunting.
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 27, 2011, 07:51:36 AM
This thread is getting dumber with each post. Wish I would have never opened it. :beatdeadhorse:
This forum should always be about friendly debate and the exchange of ideas. We're never all going to agree on everything or there'd be nothing to chat about. We should remember not to get so personal. We're talking about frikkin' broadheads here. How important is this in the broad scheme of things?
Post by: MDGrand on May 27, 2011, 08:07:19 AM
Anyway..
ribka and others who believe that new technology will bring more low quality hunters to your favorite hunting method...
I will offer that the real culprit here is the over-counter-tag... NOT the technology. I know plenty of guys who only hunt one weekend a year and do not take it seriously. Now there is nothing wrong with that... however, if the tags were more selective than perhaps we would get a higher quality of hunter out in the field.
Also.. we can't get selfish here when it comes to other people wanting to try different methods. Hunting is highly scrutinized and I for one have encountered snobs in all methods that think there is a nobility to the way they do it (i.e. recurve).. they go so far as to challenge people using technology and that only gives people new to hunting a bad taste in their mouth.
:) :twocents:
Post by: Button Nubbs on May 27, 2011, 08:46:16 AM
Post by: MDGrand on May 27, 2011, 08:56:30 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 27, 2011, 09:09:28 AM
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No where in the regs does it say archery seasons are primitive. That is a tired argument. I have been hunting archery since 1991 and the only thing that has changed is an increased amount of people hunting the late mule deer hunts. The reason most people I have talked to switched to archery is because of a perceived better opportunity to take a nice buck during the rut because of the timing of the season. That and the multi season tags. It has little to do with technology. 20 years ago there were a ton of archery hunters lobbing arrows at distances way beyond their abilities also. We actually found more dead unrecovered animals back in the 90's than these days. It is not a new problem with archery hunting. There always has been and always will be those that take ridiculous shots at animals and it isn't exclusive to compound users.It may not say it in the regs, but you have to realize that once upon a time there was a "Hunting Season" and you bought your tag and went hunting, nobody (except for a VERY few) even gave a thought to using anything other than whatever rifle they had.
I am not sure about the history of Muzzle-loaders or "Black Powder", but once upon a time, you used what you wanted, and unless specifically prohibited, it was legal.
Then some guys that were using ("alternative weapons"), as in ("primitive") wanted to be recognized, and in the case of Archery even legalised.
Thanks to the efforts of a few great men (I wont get into their names, but you SHOULD know a couple) Bows were accepted as viable hunting weapons for big game, and not just toys for Boy Scouts.
These men had to prove that the weapons they chose to use were powerful enough to ethically harvest big game animals, and fight to be accepted, just to hunt during the general season.
After proving that bows were capable, they then fought to establish special areas and seasons to use these weapons without direct competition with more modern weapons.
There were no compounds, or ("other technological advancements") There were only Longbows and Recurves,(The first Archery season was in 1934, before even recurves were invented) in the case of Black Powder, or Muzzle-loaders, there were no in-lines, 209 primers, etc. the simple act of choosing to use the weapon, and hunt with it in itself proclaimed "primitive", to be more specific, "not modern" and until (I think early '70's) there were no special seasons, if you used a ML, you hunted during the "gun" season.
To use the excuse that "No where in the regs does it say archery seasons are primitive" is not understanding the simple basis for THE WHOLE REASON THERE ARE SEPARATE SEASONS ! and not comprehending that to use anything other than a "modern Firearm" is in of itself restricting yourself (the hunter) to a primitive weapon, and in the continuing efforts to "modernize" the available choices of what is acceptable (read legal) will eventually negate all the reasons there are separate seasons.
If the trend continues, eventually it will go back to a single hunting season, where you use whatever weapon you choose, at least that will put an end to "resource allocation" and (maybe) put an end to this petty rivalry between different weapon users, but will probably institute the "permit only hunting" some others have suggested. :twocents:
Post by: Snapshot on May 27, 2011, 09:43:33 AM
Stik, everything you wrote in the previous post I agree with, except 1934 was pre-fiberglass recurves. Recurved tips on wood and simple composite bows dates back many, many years eariler.
I don't understand the "it doesn't say primitive" card that gets pulled out time and time again in equipment debates. So what? Our state just doesn't happen to that word in the regulations; but others do. The fact is that it is an up-close and personal way to hunt with a weapon that doesn't reach out and touch 'em like a bullet. Call it limited-range, call it what it whatever you like. It was intended to be an endeavour that would allow a hunter to spend more time in the field because it is difficult to get up-close to wild prey animals. "Maximum time in the field with minimum impact on game populations" is an easy sell in a state with too many people for the number of animals available.
If a person wants to enjoy the time in the outdoors that long seasons provide then keeping the gear simple is the way to ensure those opportunities endure. If stacking animals is more important than one day being able to take your grandkid bowhunting, then shoot for the moon and see later how the cards fall.
Post by: MDGrand on May 27, 2011, 10:03:03 AM
Also.. once the tags are gone.. it keeps the novice hunter from running into fred meyer the night before opening day and simply buying a tag and case a beer to go join you in your honey hole.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 27, 2011, 10:03:27 AM
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Also.. we can't get selfish here when it comes to other people wanting to try different methods. Hunting is highly scrutinized and I for one have encountered snobs in all methods that think there is a nobility to the way they do it (i.e. recurve).. they go so far as to challenge people using technology and that only gives people new to hunting a bad taste in their mouth.I have been called an "elitist" and accept it, so I wanted to be clear, I see nothing wrong with using ANY weapon, or equipment that you personally choose to use, I find no fault with anybody who hunts according to their own personal agenda, I have hunted with all weapons myself, Started with a rifle, then used a Muzzle-loader, then a handgun, then a compound, now a recurve, I have been Archery hunting since 1986, and quit using a compound in 2002.
If you can efficiently and cleanly kill your animal, I don't care if it is with a rifle at 1000 yards, or a spear (if it were legal), it is just the argument about allowed technology in "restricted" seasons. If you want to hunt with the latest, greatest, fastest, flattest shooting, newest piece of equipment out there, then by all means I support you, but first I want you to understand the whole concept of why there are different seasons for different weapons,
I am not a "snob", I respect all hunters, I feel more of a camaraderie with other that chose to use "Traditional" weapons, but that is only because I identify myself with them., in a similar, but lesser degree with compound users, as it is still archery.
I respect and enjoy talking hunting with any hunters, including trappers and hound hunters, even though I am not one of them, we still share the love of the hunt.
It is just when you want to change an established regulation, THAT WAS PUT INTO EFFECT BY THOSE WHO DID THE WORK TO PROVIDE THE OPPORTUNNITY, AND SUPPORTED BY THE MAJORITY OF PARTICIPANTS IN THE SPORT, NOT THE WDFW, just because you want to be able to use something that is not supported by the majority of those ACTUALLY INVOLVED in the season setting, or regulatory process, I will not support you.
If (and when) expandables become legal (I do believe it is only a matter of time) I will accept them, but will not use them, and I will accept the users.
I do like to check out other peoples equipment, and think some of those set-ups are really impressive, I enjoy and appreciate the impressive capabilities of the new generation of hunting weapons, but prefer the look and feel of a nice piece of wood, whether it be the stock of a rifle (modern, or Muzzle-loader) or the riser on a bow. and a more fulfilling experience by simplifying my weapon of choice, but that is just me.
You are welcome to your own beleifs, and I wish you nothing but good will.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 27, 2011, 10:08:40 AM
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Stik, everything you wrote in the previous post I agree with, except 1934 was pre-fiberglass recurves. Recurved tips on wood and simple composite bows dates back many, many years eariler.1934-Year of the first Bow hunting season in the United States, held in the state of Wisconsin.
I added the comment about recurves, I guess I should have stated "working recurve bows"
1953-Bear Archery develops and sells the first working recurve bows.
Post by: MDGrand on May 27, 2011, 10:14:39 AM
.. I totally respect your opinion. Totally get where you are comming from.. I think there is a middle ground between the guys who really enjoy what you guys do and guys like me who like the new technology.
Post by: Machias on May 27, 2011, 10:18:10 AM
Post by: bearpaw on May 27, 2011, 10:19:39 AM
They are illegal in Idaho, I had a hunter show up with them from back east where they are popular. I told him to go to town and get some fixed blade broadheads. He went and bought the new broadheads but didn't use them.
He snuck his mechanicals out hunting. Wounded a big bull elk and a big mule deer buck, just not enough penetration. I also don't like the idea of relying on a mechanical action to open them. :twocents:
Hey BearPaw... how long ago was this? Just curious...
I am going to say about 7 or 8 years. On the elk if I remember correctly, the guide I had him hunting with said he hit the bull in the shoulder and it didn't penetrate. I have shot a muskox through both shoulders witha good fixed blade and the arrow exited the other side. :twocents:
That is why I am opposed to mechnicals, not everyone will hit the animal just right every time. There are going to be misplaced shots, anyone who knows me or reads my signature can see I am opposed to excessive regulations, but I do see the need for protecting our wildlife from excessive wounding opportunities from the lack of effective equipment.
Maybe there are improvements in mechanicals that I am not aware of in the last year or two, but I see mechanicals as more effective on small game than big game where rugged construction is needed in case of a slightly misplaced shot which most of us are capable of doing. :twocents:
Post by: Houndhunter on May 27, 2011, 10:20:18 AM
Post by: h20hunter on May 27, 2011, 10:25:11 AM
Post by: MDGrand on May 27, 2011, 10:27:09 AM
They are illegal in Idaho, I had a hunter show up with them from back east where they are popular. I told him to go to town and get some fixed blade broadheads. He went and bought the new broadheads but didn't use them.
He snuck his mechanicals out hunting. Wounded a big bull elk and a big mule deer buck, just not enough penetration. I also don't like the idea of relying on a mechanical action to open them. :twocents:
Hey BearPaw... how long ago was this? Just curious...
I am going to say about 7 or 8 years. On the elk if I remember correctly, the guide I had him hunting with said he hit the bull in the shoulder and it didn't penetrate. I have shot a muskox through both shoulders witha good fixed blade and the arrow exited the other side. :twocents:
That is why I am opposed to mechnicals, not everyone will hit the animal just right every time. There are going to be misplaced shots, anyone who knows me or reads my signature can see I am opposed to excessive regulations, but I do see the need for protecting our wildlife from excessive wounding opportunities from the lack of effective equipment.
Maybe there are improvements in mechanicals that I am not aware of in the last year or two, but I see mechanicals as more effective on small game than big game where rugged construction is needed in case of a slightly misplaced shot which most of us are capable of doing. :twocents:
Thanks for the info BearPaw.. Since we can not use expandables, I do not have first hand experience with them. However, I am going to MT in Sept and I know they allow them. From the videos I have reserached, there seems to be some really good mechanical onces out there.. for example, Shwacker broadheads have a video of a quartering shot through plywood that went clean through!
I am interested to know if old broadheads had the flaw of not penetrating but new ones being a lot better are more reliable?
Who here has recently shot an elk with an expandable and hit them in the shoulder? Anyone?
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 27, 2011, 10:28:58 AM
not sure if this has already been discussed, but i saw a few post saying that expandibles are barbed and will stay in the animal. well that may have been true years back, but it isnt anymore. expandibles have come along way and i see no point in not having them legal, they make a better shot every time all way around period
If the extended blade isn't closed at the back or producing a forward angle, I believe it's considered barbed. I believe the concern is when the arrow doesn't pass through, the continued suffering of the animal trying to kick it out or ripping inside as it goes through brush. It won't come out as easily as a fixed broadhead. Do I have this right?
Post by: Snapshot on May 27, 2011, 10:32:22 AM
Over the Winter of '52-'53 my father, Glenn St. Charles, launched a new and exciting project: a full working recurve bow limbed bow utilizing a relatively new material - fiberglass - in combination with hardwood laminations. Most innovative were its long handle riser and relatively its short fully working recurved limbs.
At the time of its introduction in the Spring of 1953 the St. Charles Thunderbird recurve was truely unique in its design. By the Spring of 1957 nearly all recurve bows in production mirrored the Thunderbird's basic style.
So for the record, Bear built and launched its working recurve in '53, but it wasn't the first fiberglass working recurve.
Post by: Snapshot on May 27, 2011, 10:33:32 AM
If the extended blade isn't closed at the back or producing a forward angle, I believe it's considered barbed. I believe the concern is when the arrow doesn't pass through, the continued suffering of the animal trying to kick it out or ripping inside as it goes through brush. It won't come out as easily as a fixed broadhead. Do I have this right?
I believe you do have it right.
Post by: bearpaw on May 27, 2011, 10:42:36 AM
They are illegal in Idaho, I had a hunter show up with them from back east where they are popular. I told him to go to town and get some fixed blade broadheads. He went and bought the new broadheads but didn't use them.
He snuck his mechanicals out hunting. Wounded a big bull elk and a big mule deer buck, just not enough penetration. I also don't like the idea of relying on a mechanical action to open them. :twocents:
Hey BearPaw... how long ago was this? Just curious...
I am going to say about 7 or 8 years. On the elk if I remember correctly, the guide I had him hunting with said he hit the bull in the shoulder and it didn't penetrate. I have shot a muskox through both shoulders witha good fixed blade and the arrow exited the other side. :twocents:
That is why I am opposed to mechnicals, not everyone will hit the animal just right every time. There are going to be misplaced shots, anyone who knows me or reads my signature can see I am opposed to excessive regulations, but I do see the need for protecting our wildlife from excessive wounding opportunities from the lack of effective equipment.
Maybe there are improvements in mechanicals that I am not aware of in the last year or two, but I see mechanicals as more effective on small game than big game where rugged construction is needed in case of a slightly misplaced shot which most of us are capable of doing. :twocents:
Thanks for the info BearPaw.. Since we can not use expandables, I do not have first hand experience with them. However, I am going to MT in Sept and I know they allow them. From the videos I have reserached, there seems to be some really good mechanical onces out there.. for example, Shwacker broadheads have a video of a quartering shot through plywood that went clean through!
I am interested to know if old broadheads had the flaw of not penetrating but new ones being a lot better are more reliable?
Who here has recently shot an elk with an expandable and hit them in the shoulder? Anyone?
RE: The mechanical that was shot through plywood, I wonder if it retained all it's blades, and how many times they did it before it did retain blades? If the blades are lost on bone, you are basically shooting a target arrow after it hits bone.
If there is a mechanical that has been proven to consistently withstand big game bones, then I would certainly support it's use. To date I haven't heard of any, not to say they don't have something new out that has been recently proven. :twocents:
Post by: Snapshot on May 27, 2011, 10:44:30 AM
The invention of fiberglass allowed for the leap from static wood recurves like those that were built in the early 20th century to the recurve design commonly used today.
Post by: MDGrand on May 27, 2011, 10:48:59 AM
They are illegal in Idaho, I had a hunter show up with them from back east where they are popular. I told him to go to town and get some fixed blade broadheads. He went and bought the new broadheads but didn't use them.
He snuck his mechanicals out hunting. Wounded a big bull elk and a big mule deer buck, just not enough penetration. I also don't like the idea of relying on a mechanical action to open them. :twocents:
Hey BearPaw... how long ago was this? Just curious...
I am going to say about 7 or 8 years. On the elk if I remember correctly, the guide I had him hunting with said he hit the bull in the shoulder and it didn't penetrate. I have shot a muskox through both shoulders witha good fixed blade and the arrow exited the other side. :twocents:
That is why I am opposed to mechnicals, not everyone will hit the animal just right every time. There are going to be misplaced shots, anyone who knows me or reads my signature can see I am opposed to excessive regulations, but I do see the need for protecting our wildlife from excessive wounding opportunities from the lack of effective equipment.
Maybe there are improvements in mechanicals that I am not aware of in the last year or two, but I see mechanicals as more effective on small game than big game where rugged construction is needed in case of a slightly misplaced shot which most of us are capable of doing. :twocents:
Thanks for the info BearPaw.. Since we can not use expandables, I do not have first hand experience with them. However, I am going to MT in Sept and I know they allow them. From the videos I have reserached, there seems to be some really good mechanical onces out there.. for example, Shwacker broadheads have a video of a quartering shot through plywood that went clean through!
I am interested to know if old broadheads had the flaw of not penetrating but new ones being a lot better are more reliable?
Who here has recently shot an elk with an expandable and hit them in the shoulder? Anyone?
RE: The mechanical that was shot through plywood, I wonder if it retained all it's blades, and how many times they did it before it did retain blades? If the blades are lost on bone, you are basically shooting a target arrow after it hits bone.
If there is a mechanical that has been proven to consistently withstand big game bones, then I would certainly support it's use. To date I haven't heard of any, not to say they don't have something new out that has been recently proven. :twocents:
Good point.. it would be nice to know how much of the blade is left..
Post by: bearpaw on May 27, 2011, 10:55:06 AM
They are illegal in Idaho, I had a hunter show up with them from back east where they are popular. I told him to go to town and get some fixed blade broadheads. He went and bought the new broadheads but didn't use them.
He snuck his mechanicals out hunting. Wounded a big bull elk and a big mule deer buck, just not enough penetration. I also don't like the idea of relying on a mechanical action to open them. :twocents:
Hey BearPaw... how long ago was this? Just curious...
I am going to say about 7 or 8 years. On the elk if I remember correctly, the guide I had him hunting with said he hit the bull in the shoulder and it didn't penetrate. I have shot a muskox through both shoulders witha good fixed blade and the arrow exited the other side. :twocents:
That is why I am opposed to mechnicals, not everyone will hit the animal just right every time. There are going to be misplaced shots, anyone who knows me or reads my signature can see I am opposed to excessive regulations, but I do see the need for protecting our wildlife from excessive wounding opportunities from the lack of effective equipment.
Maybe there are improvements in mechanicals that I am not aware of in the last year or two, but I see mechanicals as more effective on small game than big game where rugged construction is needed in case of a slightly misplaced shot which most of us are capable of doing. :twocents:
Thanks for the info BearPaw.. Since we can not use expandables, I do not have first hand experience with them. However, I am going to MT in Sept and I know they allow them. From the videos I have reserached, there seems to be some really good mechanical onces out there.. for example, Shwacker broadheads have a video of a quartering shot through plywood that went clean through!
I am interested to know if old broadheads had the flaw of not penetrating but new ones being a lot better are more reliable?
Who here has recently shot an elk with an expandable and hit them in the shoulder? Anyone?
RE: The mechanical that was shot through plywood, I wonder if it retained all it's blades, and how many times they did it before it did retain blades? If the blades are lost on bone, you are basically shooting a target arrow after it hits bone.
If there is a mechanical that has been proven to consistently withstand big game bones, then I would certainly support it's use. To date I haven't heard of any, not to say they don't have something new out that has been recently proven. :twocents:
Good point.. it would be nice to know how much of the blade is left..
For me that is the deciding factor. If they have improved them so that they are tough enough to consistently go through a shoulder blade, they eliminate the barb (tailing eges must slant forward), then we should embrace them, they inherently make a bigger hole which means more kills (if those other factors are corrected) then they would be an improvement over fixed blades. :twocents:
Post by: carpsniperg2 on May 27, 2011, 02:00:11 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on May 27, 2011, 03:38:45 PM
Post by: PolarBear on May 27, 2011, 03:40:40 PM
Post by: Lowedog on May 27, 2011, 04:44:16 PM
As I posted before, a friend of mines father who lives in MT uses nothing but Rage mechs for elk and has never had an issue. Says they cut a massive hole too.
If I were going to use them I would definitely do my research and testing on my own.
I have not voted on the poll because without some real world experience with mechs I cannot say I would choose them over fixed.
Edit: just looked at question for poll again. Thought that it was choose one or the other. I will vote yes on legalizing them.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on May 27, 2011, 05:03:03 PM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 27, 2011, 10:01:23 PM
So as to not have any...what do they call it…revisionist history on here, the following is from Jay St. C.’s website:To respond to this, I am fully aware of Glenn's contribution, as my own beginnings in Archery began at NW Archery in Des Moines, I am friends with the whole family, and felt a great loss at Glenns passing...
Over the Winter of '52-'53 my father, Glenn St. Charles, launched a new and exciting project: a full working recurve bow limbed bow utilizing a relatively new material - fiberglass - in combination with hardwood laminations. Most innovative were its long handle riser and relatively its short fully working recurved limbs.
At the time of its introduction in the Spring of 1953 the St. Charles Thunderbird recurve was truely unique in its design. By the Spring of 1957 nearly all recurve bows in production mirrored the Thunderbird's basic style.
So for the record, Bear built and launched its working recurve in '53, but it wasn't the first fiberglass working recurve.
I took my NBEF course in the museum and have hunted with Joe StCharles (he even helped pack out my Elk) I spent countless hours in that shop (and a lot of money), just listening to stories and drinking their coffee, however in the "history" of Archery, Fred gets the credit because he mass produced the bows, while Glenn only made a couple hundred.
(Also the first fiberglass and even the aluminum in Bears Grizzly's and Kodiaks '49-'51 came from Boeing Surplus, sold to Fred by Glenn)
.........................
Also, I am aware that there were other "curved" bows made earlier by other cultures, but the limb did not fully use the "recurve" as a forward (or working) motion, merely allowed a shorter bow to have more power.
My statement were/are merely meant to illustrate my point, actual discussion on Archery History is a whole different topic.
Thank you for pointing it out, but did not mean to :jacked:
Post by: Snapshot on May 28, 2011, 07:56:31 PM
And you do a very good job of illustrating your points, Stik. Keep it up!
Post by: oldleclercrd on June 10, 2011, 12:54:53 PM
Post by: Holg3107 on June 10, 2011, 01:27:31 PM
Post by: oldleclercrd on June 10, 2011, 01:31:25 PM
Post by: Skillet on June 10, 2011, 01:45:20 PM
Post by: oldleclercrd on June 10, 2011, 01:54:10 PM
Post by: Skillet on June 10, 2011, 01:55:28 PM
Post by: Lowedog on June 10, 2011, 02:08:41 PM
Post by: oldleclercrd on June 10, 2011, 02:16:49 PM
Post by: gonehuntin68 on June 10, 2011, 02:22:44 PM
Post by: MDGrand on June 10, 2011, 02:25:15 PM
I bet if we did a poll of illuminocks and 209 ignitions we would find the same results! :)
Post by: The100Road on June 10, 2011, 02:28:07 PM
Post by: MDGrand on June 10, 2011, 02:32:12 PM
I agree with you on this one completely. If you dont want to use it, don't. But your decision does not need to be my decision.
Bottom line is the people for keeping the current regulations dont want to have new people to compete with durring hunting season.
My opinion is that this is counterintuitive thinking as we need to bring more people into hunting so it is not such a highly scutinizd activity.
:) :twocents:
Post by: Machias on June 10, 2011, 03:04:07 PM
Bottom line is the people for keeping the current regulations dont want to have new people to compete with durring hunting season.
:) :twocents:
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Post by: MDGrand on June 10, 2011, 03:08:53 PM
i.e. allowing the use of new expanding broadheads will lead to the shortening of seasons and others buying an archery tag vs. a modern tag.. I have heard this MANY times before.
If that is not your opinion.. cool :)
Post by: oldleclercrd on June 10, 2011, 03:11:13 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on June 10, 2011, 03:11:38 PM
Post by: MDGrand on June 10, 2011, 03:16:07 PM
But my final :twocents: on the issue is that
1. I do not think it would shorten the season, that is just a hypothetical argument those in favor of keeping the current regulations give
regardless.. the real culprit here in crowding or not being able to use new techologies is the OTC tags we have here in WA. I would prefer to have regulations similar to ID or UT or MT.. I believe that a draw tag system makes it more difficult and thereby gets the more serious hunters out in the field.
... as opposed to the OTC tags which allow Joe six pack hunter to to buy a tag the night before the opener, bring a half rack and .30-06 and 4x around the mountains not giving a crap if they get any game or not.
BUT.. I am bringing up a whole other subject!
To each his own :)
Post by: Machias on June 10, 2011, 03:17:49 PM
every arguement I have heard, especially on this board always comes back to it.
i.e. allowing the use of new expanding broadheads will lead to the shortening of seasons and others buying an archery tag vs. a modern tag.. I have heard this MANY times before.
If that is not your opinion.. cool :)
Shortening the season and welcoming new bowhunters into the sport is two vastly different things. I'm only commenting on the reason I'm against expandable has nothing to do with wanting less bowhunters and everything to do with dependability. Once they get the dependbility and reliability built into these broadheads, then I will give them my consideration. Has nothing to do with wanting to limit the number of new bowhunters. Also If a guy decides he NOT going to join bowhunting solely because expandables are not allowed, then he's not really wanting to get into bowhunting.
Post by: Button Nubbs on June 10, 2011, 03:19:55 PM
Post by: Machias on June 10, 2011, 03:20:02 PM
well, I am not going to dive into this never ending thread too much..
But my final :twocents: on the issue is that
1. I do not think it would shorten the season, that is just a hypothetical argument those in favor of keeping the current regulations give
regardless.. the real culprit here in crowding or not being able to use new techologies is the OTC tags we have here in WA. I would prefer to have regulations similar to ID or UT or MT.. I believe that a draw tag system makes it more difficult and thereby gets the more serious hunters out in the field.
... as opposed to the OTC tags which allow Joe six pack hunter to to buy a tag the night before the opener, bring a half rack and .30-06 and 4x around the mountains not giving a crap if they get any game or not.
BUT.. I am bringing up a whole other subject!
To each his own :)
Crowding has NOTHING to do with OTC and everything to do with putting us all into fewer and fewer GMUs. There is no way to get away from other bowhunters and it has nothing to do with OTC.
Post by: MDGrand on June 10, 2011, 03:24:53 PM
I totally respect your opinion...
and I am asking out of curiosity.. how many other western states have you hunted?
OTC tags, absolutely have an effect on how many hunters are in the field, especially in WA.. I see WAY more serious hunters in other western states with a draw tag system as opposed to WA.
Post by: Curly on June 10, 2011, 03:25:23 PM
This is a testament to how many passionate hunters want the regs changed when it comes to these particular items.
I bet if we did a poll of illuminocks and 209 ignitions we would find the same results! :)
I'll take that bet on the 209's...........I bet the poll on illuminocks would win for the yes vote though.
Post by: Machias on June 10, 2011, 03:26:44 PM
Post by: MDGrand on June 10, 2011, 03:27:37 PM
This is a testament to how many passionate hunters want the regs changed when it comes to these particular items.
I bet if we did a poll of illuminocks and 209 ignitions we would find the same results! :)
I'll take that bet on the 209's...........I bet the poll on illuminocks would win for the yes vote though.
comming from a wet sider that is really hard to believe you would not want 209s!
But.... ok :)
Post by: MDGrand on June 10, 2011, 03:31:25 PM
I've hunted OTC in ID, OR and in Missouri.
I have hunted in ID and OR too.. as well as UT, MT, NV, AZ, AK and CO.. Each of these states vary in their draw systems.. some have OTC for some animals, and exclusive draw only for others.... BUT...
The states that exact a more stringent draw system each year.. get the more serious hunter we enjoy being in the field with.
Joe six pack.. is HIGHLY unlikely to join you up in the mountain if he forgot to put his name in the drawing months before.
But WA allows him to buy his tag the nigh before, fill the cooler full of beer and go raise hell.
NOW.. nothing is wrong with that.. but I enjoy being out in the field with more serious hunters as opposed to the novice hunter.
Coincidentally, many of these states allow more technology than WA does too.. i.e. 209s and expanding heads.
Post by: Curly on June 10, 2011, 03:31:34 PM
But that is another topic altogether........
Post by: The100Road on June 10, 2011, 03:35:36 PM
Post by: Curly on June 10, 2011, 03:37:24 PM
No its not. You can use a scope and shoot 400 yards with modern. And a clip
No its not what?
Post by: The100Road on June 10, 2011, 03:39:09 PM
Post by: Machias on June 10, 2011, 03:42:43 PM
Post by: The100Road on June 10, 2011, 03:45:45 PM
Post by: Machias on June 10, 2011, 03:46:44 PM
Post by: Snapshot on June 10, 2011, 04:08:18 PM
http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/2008update7.pdf (http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/2008update7.pdf)
Post by: Curly on June 10, 2011, 04:09:16 PM
MDGrand, The100Road, or others, feel free to post up some polls on 209's, scopes on muzzy, and lumilockss in the appropriate section and I will be glad to debate those topics (again).
Back to the original topic.....expandable broadheads:
My take:
Expandable broadheads have not been shown to be reliable. So, I think it would be in the best interest of the hunting community (to keep from getting a black eye in the minds of the anti-hunters) by using methods that have been proven to be the most reliable in providing good penetration and clean kills (fixed broadhead).
:twocents:
Post by: gonehuntin68 on June 10, 2011, 06:25:51 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on June 10, 2011, 06:33:47 PM
Post by: oldleclercrd on June 10, 2011, 07:37:36 PM
Post by: KillBilly on June 10, 2011, 08:24:22 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on June 10, 2011, 08:24:42 PM
Post by: oldleclercrd on June 10, 2011, 09:52:22 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on June 10, 2011, 10:18:02 PM
C'mon dude, having a rest, sight and peep are completely different from shooting expandable broadheads. Try a different argument...
Post by: sebek556 on June 10, 2011, 10:31:07 PM
I look at it like this,I like advise on my bow set up not being told how I must set my bow up.
Post by: oldleclercrd on June 11, 2011, 11:20:59 AM
Well if that's the case anything has the opportunity to fail and none of use should hunt except with our bear hands. Oh wait our fingers might cramp And we might not to be able to finish the job that way. I guess we shouldn't hunt at all...
C'mon dude, having a rest, sight and peep are completely different from shooting expandable broadheads. Try a different argument...
I was basically mocking what you sound like talking about expandibles nubbs. Im not all that worried if we will hunt with them or not, however its funny hearing peoples opinions about them when they had a "friend" who tried them once and failed. Shoot what you want on your bow and ill shoot what I want on mine.
Post by: Snapshot on June 11, 2011, 11:59:05 AM
then why do other states allow it...
"The Archery Trade Association, formerly known as the Archery Manufacturer and Merchant's Organization, (AMO) is a non-profit trade organization for the promotion of archery and bowhunting through sale of equipment, projects in archery education, the standardization of equipment measures, and the sponsorship of events." -Wikipedia
I was told that ATA goes to gatherings of game department personnel and gives to state agents and agencies. It seems to me it is all about the money...and nothing to do with whether a product is reliable, or if it gives hunting a black eye. When the ATA funds a game department study, then they have bought themselves the ability to influence the decision-makers.
Post by: bearpaw on June 11, 2011, 12:10:29 PM
than why do other states allow it, who here has used one and have one fail
I had a hunter illegally use them without my knowledge in another state on an elk and they failed to penetrate an elk shoulder. A 6x6 bull was wounded and I know a good solid broadhead would have went through the shoulder. That is one of the reasons I am opposed.
I have not seen evidence that they are suitable to hunting big game found in the western states. :twocents:
Post by: 3Under on June 12, 2011, 08:38:48 AM
Shoot what you want on your bow and ill shoot what I want on mine.
:bdid: This is a very dangerous slippery slope - at what point would you draw the line? Bowhunting has always been, and should always be a challenge. Speaking generally, with every advancement in technology that we introduce to make bowhunting easier (no matter how you slice it, that's the bottom line of what's being proposed), the result for all will be fewer opportunities and shorter seasons. So, shoot what you want on your bow, and I'll shoot what I want on mine, but when your choices have a negative impact on how and when I can hunt, you better believe I will have a problem with it.
Also, as others have suggested, I highly recommend that everyone interested in this topic read Dr. Ashby's studies -I don't think anyone has done more independent research on broadheads than he has, and it is very clear from his reports that fixed blade broadheads are more reliable, and more effective.
Post by: oldleclercrd on June 12, 2011, 09:15:22 AM
Shoot what you want on your bow and ill shoot what I want on mine.
:bdid: This is a very dangerous slippery slope - at what point would you draw the line? Bowhunting has always been, and should always be a challenge. Speaking generally, with every advancement in technology that we introduce to make bowhunting easier (no matter how you slice it, that's the bottom line of what's being proposed), the result for all will be fewer opportunities and shorter seasons. So, shoot what you want on your bow, and I'll shoot what I want on mine, but when your choices have a negative impact on how and when I can hunt, you better believe I will have a problem with it.
Also, as others have suggested, I highly recommend that everyone interested in this topic read Dr. Ashby's studies -I don't think anyone has done more independent research on broadheads than he has, and it is very clear from his reports that fixed blade broadheads are more reliable, and more effective.
Its no wonder we would have a shorter season with you guys saying it every post. Who says thats gonna happen anyway? Also, if we would have shorter seasons due to expandibles, then are you admitting they work really well and therfore we need a shorter season? Give me a brake. You act like what you put on the end of your arrow is gonna take away from the challenge of a bowhunt. You still have to track them, call them, sneak on them, and make the shot. I didnt know the broadhead choice took away from that.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on June 12, 2011, 11:29:33 AM
I am sure that they have come a long ways from when they were first introduced, and some have been made that are not "barbed", but still, inherent to the design, they are more like a fish arrow than a large game head, and the controversy will continue.
I do not doubt that one day they will be legal for use in Washington, as their popularity increases, and an awful lot of retail stores (in Washington) carry them.
Money and pressure from those that want to use them will change the regulations.
I do not think that anybody does not take up archery because they cannot use them, but do feel that use of them will result in more unrecovered game, due to the fact that the ones most readily available are not necessarily the best ones out there (as in cheapest are what ?mart sells) and there are already enough "Bowhunters" shooting at distances beyond their ability, both with Trad gear and "modern technological arrow launching devices".
I don't care how fast, or quiet your bow is, until they pass 750 fps, you will still be unable to predict what that animal is going to do upon release, and no matter what sharp object you have on the end of your arrow, or how good you are at the range, wounding loss is a fact of hunting, and we owe it to the animals themselves to keep it at a minimum. :twocents:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 12, 2011, 12:04:06 PM
Post by: Snapshot on June 13, 2011, 03:49:19 PM
You act like what you put on the end of your arrow is gonna take away from the challenge of a bowhunt. You still have to track them, call them, sneak on them, and make the shot. I didnt know the broadhead choice took away from that.
Being able to sharpen a broadhead and to tune the equipment so as to achieve proper arrow flight are two of the most essential components in the challenge of bowhunting! But those and many other challenges cannot or will not met by many if not most bowhunters today...they are missing out on the personal involvement and the satisfaction derived from it that the archery hunters of old cherished.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on June 13, 2011, 03:56:45 PM
Post by: Lowedog on June 13, 2011, 04:23:45 PM
Post by: oldleclercrd on June 13, 2011, 07:26:30 PM
You act like what you put on the end of your arrow is gonna take away from the challenge of a bowhunt. You still have to track them, call them, sneak on them, and make the shot. I didnt know the broadhead choice took away from that.
Being able to sharpen a broadhead and to tune the equipment so as to achieve proper arrow flight are two of the most essential components in the challenge of bowhunting! But those and many other challenges cannot or will not met by many if not most bowhunters today...they are missing out on the personal involvement and the satisfaction derived from it that the archery hunters of old cherished.
You have to tune your bow before you shoot it? :rolleyes: Oh and I buy replaceable blades to keep them sharp. Just MY choice on My properly tuned bow. :twocents:
Post by: Snapshot on June 14, 2011, 10:30:25 AM
You have to tune your bow before you shoot it? Oh and I buy replaceable blades to keep them sharp.
Of course I have to tune the bow... Ya can't just throw a string on it and hope for the best.
Do whatever you need to do to get a sharp broadhead...that is the bottom line. But I'm here to say it is satisfying to hone an edge to shaving-sharpness with simple tools in one's own hands. :twocents:
Post by: Snapshot on June 14, 2011, 10:45:52 AM
I have to agree, there is something about sitting down on a log and running the file across my BH's that I would miss if I was one of those "techies"
Stiknstring, I know a guy who used to launch arrows tipped with two-blade broadheads from a PSE compound. Just because he used a compound didn't mean he couldn't partake in one of the simple pleasures of archery hunting. He used the most sturdy broadhead he could find and did what it took to get them to fly properly.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on June 15, 2011, 07:45:41 AM
I was not commenting about the bow, I was commenting about the broadhead, and one of the aspects of archery I sometimes take for granted. that someone else pointed out.I have to agree, there is something about sitting down on a log and running the file across my BH's that I would miss if I was one of those "techies"
Stiknstring, I know a guy who used to launch arrows tipped with two-blade broadheads from a PSE compound. Just because he used a compound didn't mean he couldn't partake in one of the simple pleasures of archery hunting. He used the most sturdy broadhead he could find and did what it took to get them to fly properly.
I do not know how they replace blades, or resharpen expandables.
Post by: Snapshot on June 15, 2011, 08:10:07 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on June 15, 2011, 08:11:17 AM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 15, 2011, 08:20:35 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on June 15, 2011, 08:25:02 AM
o.k lets go back to recurve hunting .....with the old two blade broadheads ... I am in ..... :chuckle: :chuckle:Actually, after having made aquaintance with Gene and Barry, I am giving the "Wensel Woodsman" a try.. 3 blade
Post by: Snapshot on June 15, 2011, 08:44:50 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on June 15, 2011, 09:10:50 AM
But then, I shoot a lot more deer than elk, was actually planning on using these on a bear come August....
Post by: ribka on June 15, 2011, 09:19:26 AM
Been using 2 blade 170gr Grizzly's on 550 gr Sweetland compressed cedar, but am trying out 175 gr Woodsman Elites on 550gr Grizzlystik Safaris, like shooting darts at my target.
But then, I shoot a lot more deer than elk, was actually planning on using these on a bear come August....
No elk yet but around two doz Wt 's in Wisconsin with the woodsman and snuffer heads
I know guys like them for elk.
Gene and Barry really nice helpful guys. Ran into them in Iowa 8 years ago
Very good hunters and great sense of humor
Post by: Snapshot on June 16, 2011, 07:37:56 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 16, 2011, 08:13:46 PM
Post by: predator guy on June 16, 2011, 08:24:51 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 16, 2011, 08:35:18 PM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on June 16, 2011, 10:38:06 PM
What's next? Can't use expandible bullets? Or...compound bows? Or modern firearms? Who are these people that come up with these stupid regulations? What is the reason for NOT being able to use an expandible broadhead? Please fill me in.THE ONLY REASON EXPANDABLE BROADHEADS ARE ILLEGAL IN WASHINGTON IS BECAUSE WHEN DEPLOYED THE BACK OF THE BROADHEAD FORMS A BARB, AND CANNOT WORK ITSELF OUT OF THE ANIMAL IN THE EVENT OF A BAD HIT, THAT IS THE ONLY REASON WHEN THE LAW WAS WRITTEN. :bash:
Post by: huntingfool7 on June 17, 2011, 06:51:11 AM
The pointy part of your arrow does not make you a more effective hunter nor increase your effective range. The same is true for light up nocks.
We should all just go back to cedar, feathers and obsidian.
Post by: ribka on June 17, 2011, 07:29:52 AM
You don't lose hunting days due to gear restrictions. That is an empty line that gets repeated too much on here. Did we get more days for ducks when they went to steel??? Reduced range and less effective, especially with the original steel loads. Remember how crappy those were?I
The pointy part of your arrow does not make you a more effective hunter nor increase your effective range. The same is true for light up nocks.
We should all just go back to cedar, feathers and obsidian.
Have to disagree after speaking with State Game Mgt guys in while bow hunting in MD, WI and WA. I discussed the advancement of technology in archery and the lessoning of of length of archery seasons and all responded that technology in primitive weapons seasons will result in a shorter season.
It's not the single introduction of the head itself it is the culmination of all technoloy in archery. It is also the public perception regarding technology.
While archery hunting in WA I have had rifle guys stop and talk to me and complain about how easy bow hunting is now and it is not fair we have longer seasons then the rifle hunters.
There is a big push in the cross bow lobby to allow in all states, including WA, during archery seasons.
So yes I would say people have an argument that it could possibly impact our archery seasons. I am selfish and will fight to keep out archery seasons.
Post by: MDGrand on June 17, 2011, 07:53:54 AM
The culprit for having your season's shortened has VERY little to do with technology. Sure, there is a reason that rifle hunters get a few weeks each year and archery hunters get a month or so. It is because the medium is easier with a rifle.
However,
it is NOT technology that is shortening the seasons.. it is WA adhearance to over the counter tags.
Every year, some novice hunter who spends no time on boards like these, no time scouting, no time except maybe once sighting in his rifle, buys a tag the night before and goes out the next day to raise hell with a case full of beer and no real care of he bags something. As I have said before... there is NOTHING wrong with this.. BUT.. it does cause crowded hill sides and those dedicated or serious rifle hunters the reason to take up another method.. i.e. Archery. By instituting a more selective draw system this would keep the Joe Six pack hunter who remembered that deer season opened the night before out of your honey hole because he did not take the time and care to put in for his tag months ago as did other more serious hunters.
Other states like CO, MT, UT, ID are great examples of how to run their license and tag department to WA. We need to start acting the same.
I believe if we offered a partial draw system, similar to MT.. we would get longer seasons, more serious hunters out in the field and all those who want to use new technology could use it without their being any real flack from other hunters. MT is a real great example of how to run this. For residents, they usually almost always get drawn for Elk and Deer in their areas.. rarely do they not get drawn.. but what it does do.. is close to opening day.. the tags are out! The Johnny come lately hunters can't join him! Sure.. I realize there are some on this board that dont even want to risk a 10% chance that they wont get their tag that year.. but hell lets say you dont get drawn for elk that year but you get months to hunt that muley you have been after or vice versa... wouldnt that be worth it????
Every serious archer who does not want the regs to change usually always comes back to the same position at the end.. that they do not want the regs to change because it will bring more people out in the field. By instituting a draw system, I think that would eliminate that arguement and make everyone happy.
As far as expandables... After reading this thread for weeks now... My position has changed somewhat and I want to thank the guys on this board like Bearpaw, stickandstring, etc...
The "barbed" arguement is valid.. but does not carry a lot of weight as other arguements. I do not know how easy it is for any arrow to "work itself out." My G5s are pretty stubborn buggers even in my target at home. Not saying anyone is terribly wrong here.. but this reason seems pretty light.
The "penetration" arguement I think is what holds the most water here.. On a large animal like Elk, I think they should mandate fixed blades. I am ok with that.
However, there is a place for them for Deer. WAY too many hunters all over the country use them and use them VERY successfully. The old ones many have had issues.. but the new ones seem to be great.
:twocents:
Post by: huntingfool7 on June 17, 2011, 10:41:01 PM
BTW- Cross bows are not new technology and they are not any more effective than a bow. Arrows or bolts still have rainbow trajectories and crossbows are not efficient at transferring their energy. That's why crossbows are 150# or greater.
Ribka- I have not checked the rules in MD or WI. I would be surprised if they do not already allow expandable broadheads there. I doubt Game Mgmt guys in WA or MD/WI specifically addressed them in a conversation as a reason to shorten seasons.
Getting back on subject. While I don't really have any desire to use them, I don't care if someone else does.