Post by: Knocker of rocks on January 15, 2012, 05:23:57 PM
http://www.mkschiappa.com/MKS_Chiappa_rifles/Chiappa_1886_Kodiak_Traditional_Trapper.html
Post by: carpsniperg2 on January 15, 2012, 05:28:33 PM
Post by: wraithen on January 15, 2012, 05:29:43 PM
Post by: ArrowH on January 15, 2012, 05:30:14 PM
Post by: FC on January 15, 2012, 05:31:40 PM
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=35
I would go with either the 405gr or 500gr load.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on January 15, 2012, 05:46:46 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on January 15, 2012, 05:50:38 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 15, 2012, 06:09:59 PM
Thanks all! How about their lever 12ga with slugs? But that .45-70 sure looks cool. My BIL is shopping for a .45-90 Sharps, but I think that comes breach loadYour BIL could get one of the browning commeratives in .45-90 as a lever. But I think they are only for blackpowder cartridges. .45-70 would do in a bear fine. The marlin can also use a .450 marlin which is pretty good for bears too. Another option would be a revolver in .500 S&W.
Post by: mtncook on January 15, 2012, 07:33:04 PM
mtncook
Post by: wadu1 on January 15, 2012, 07:48:37 PM
Post by: MikeWalking on January 15, 2012, 07:54:15 PM
Straight Stock. 18in Octagonal barrel & full length mag tube. 5+1 of Buffalo Bore. I saw 8 Griz in 5 trips and only had one that made me put down the camera and pick it up. At about 75 yards he finally figured out what was yelling at him and took off. The rest saw me across the tundra and ran like scalded cats, some did stop and pose a bit :chuckle: If I had not followed my own rules about danger areas on one morning I might have had to shoot a Musk Ox. (side note: on that trip my Pilot had one client mauled, saved by Bear Spray near the Dalton and two old friends killed and fed on while floating the Hulahula S-happens)
I did pack an 1895gs for a few trips. I liked the fatter forearm (and not giving the Airlines a Limited Edition to lose) With the kind of ammo you can get from Garret or Buffalo Bore I wasn't worried about one less round. My choice was the Buffalo Bore 430gr Gas Check FN. They will split a basketball size rock at 50+/-feet
Post by: MikeWalking on January 15, 2012, 08:16:12 PM
If you go with Marlin go look at Wild West Guns in Anchorage. The Happy Trigger Kit is a Must Have, other goodies for it too.
The Classic Trapper looks cool.. ouch $1395 at Gun Genie :yike:
I bought my 1895gs, put in the Happy Trigger, Heavy Mag Spring, Anodized Follower, Ghost ring Sight, Recoil Pad & Bead Blast for about $900 + some skin, polishing all the interior parts over a stack of Eastwood movies :chuckle:
Post by: Knocker of rocks on January 16, 2012, 10:14:18 AM
Post by: MikeWalking on January 16, 2012, 04:20:09 PM
Any real advantage to a .444 or .450 Marlin over the .45 Government round? I like the ability to have six shots, and the other rounds, along with the guide special have 4.
um? Not a lot I think. Again with the stuff from Buffalo Bore and Garrett you get a major upgrade in power from standard 45-70, it's more powerful than standard .450 .457 Wild West Magnum (what Marlin took the .450 from) I don't know what kind of higher performance stuff you can get in .444 You likely can get a longer tube and have it clamped to the barrel, with a heavier spring from Wolff. Even when I took my 1895gs to Alaska with 4+1 I didn't worry about only having 5.
Keep in mind the kind of ammo you can get from Garrett or BB has been known to shoot lengthwise through Cape Buffalo, breaking shoulder/hip joints in one shot.
I think Marlin has a Cowboy model 45-70 that holds 9.
Post by: high country on January 16, 2012, 04:25:32 PM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on January 16, 2012, 04:31:52 PM
6+1, recoil pad, big loop lever, stainless, and XS sights.
Post by: MikeWalking on January 16, 2012, 04:37:37 PM
http://www.gunblast.com/Marlin-1895SBL.htm
6+1, recoil pad, big loop lever, stainless, and XS sights.
I need two. Two. :chuckle:
Post by: Kowsrule30 on January 16, 2012, 05:24:18 PM
Post by: MikeWalking on January 16, 2012, 06:13:31 PM
45-70 would be way better then a 308..... You're more then likely only going to get one shot off if that in a self defense case against a mad/surprised bear..... A side arm of heavy caliber would be way better...
Highly Debatable, Handgun that is. I did sleep with a Super Redhawk full of 330gr +P tied to my wrist but for the daily hike to the next spot it was the 1895 45-70 hanging at the ready. With rules about crossing any area where visibility was less than 50 yards. Most all my trips were well North of the tree line so visibility wasn't usually much of an issue. Where there were willows or spruce I went around or treated like an ambush zone, making lots of noise and rifle shouldered...
The recoil from those +P's was so bad a third shot left my wrist stinging so bad my ring and little fingers stopped working. I could put 3-4 45-70's on target a lot faster than than I could with the .44
FWIW The only time in 8 Griz encounters I felt the need put sights on (including being spotted in the open by a Sow and cubs) I spotted him about 200 yards off as he sniffed my trail up to camp. At 75 yards he finally turned and speed-walked off. He's one of the avatar pics I use. I sometimes wonder if he knew he had reached the rock I had checked my sights on when I got dropped off.. :chuckle:
Post by: sakoshooter on January 16, 2012, 06:35:31 PM
Post by: deerhunter_98520 on January 16, 2012, 07:53:25 PM
Post by: Bean Counter on January 16, 2012, 08:12:07 PM
Hard to beat a 12ga shotgun for that.
Thats what I'm thinking in reading these stories. I've never been to AK so I cant relare. Seems reasonable, the stories that you only get one shot off anyway.
If its just for defense a $400 12.gauge seems far more economical than some of the $1,000+ setups being discussed. Is there more kinetic energy from a .45-70 than a 1oz. slug or something? :dunno:
Post by: wraithen on January 16, 2012, 08:23:23 PM
Post by: Bean Counter on January 16, 2012, 08:36:08 PM
If I had to bet id think a rifle round would be faster than a slug.
Post by: RadSav on January 16, 2012, 08:42:45 PM
Post by: TeacherMan on January 16, 2012, 08:43:58 PM
good luck with your choice!
Post by: MikeWalking on January 16, 2012, 08:56:02 PM
The 430gr load from BB I use claims 3537lbs of ME. I went for the 45-70 because I wanted Penetration. I felt more confident about being able to drill a .45 hole end to end and breaking every bone it hit along the way.
There's no doubt plenty have folks have used a 12ga and survived. They are affordable, simple and reliable. A person just needs to decide where their comfort level is.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=35
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570.html
Post by: Knocker of rocks on January 17, 2012, 06:41:14 AM
They used to make that gun in the .450 Marlin. Wonder why they aren't doing that anymore. My guide buddy in BC absolutely loves his. He's taken three grizzlies that I know of with his.
Marlin does make a 1895 .450 Marlin lever gun. I think it carries 4+1 rounds. Winchester makes a .45-70 lever that holds eight rounds.
Post by: Bean Counter on January 17, 2012, 07:47:33 AM
Quote
There's no doubt plenty have folks have used a 12ga and survived. They are affordable, simple and reliable. A person just needs to decide where their comfort level is.
Simple indeed. In the FBI study Violent Encounters, they detail the severe decrease in visual, auditory, and fine motor skills in fight or flight situations. Lots of training and practice are critical to being able to perform anything more than basic tasks jn a life or death scenario. To me, a pump action is far more basic than a lever action and would be my choice for an Oh $h!t bear gun despite the elephant guns superior ballistics. :twocents:
Post by: high country on January 17, 2012, 08:14:48 AM
Post by: BigGoonTuna on January 17, 2012, 08:36:25 AM
They used to make that gun in the .450 Marlin. Wonder why they aren't doing that anymore. My guide buddy in BC absolutely loves his. He's taken three grizzlies that I know of with his.i believe that the .450 marlin is more or less a belted rimless .45-70, from the days before the hot "lever gun" loads where most .45-70 loadings were designed to be fired in trapdoor springfields.
Post by: Bean Counter on January 17, 2012, 08:43:17 AM
A griz can run at better than 50 fps. It ain't going to make a pinch of poop difference if you have 300 or 500 grains hitting it. You either wipe its computer out or wait the couple minutes for it to bleed out while crunching your corpse. There are plenty of guides who have killed bears with small handguns in bad situations and plenty of bears that soaked up a bunch of 416 rems too. When it comes to bear defense, just hang with a fat friend.....your odds are better.
.... So the attorney turns and says to the doctor "I don't have to out run the lion, I just have to outrun you!" :chuckle:
Post by: MikeWalking on January 17, 2012, 09:16:46 AM
They used to make that gun in the .450 Marlin. Wonder why they aren't doing that anymore. My guide buddy in BC absolutely loves his. He's taken three grizzlies that I know of with his.i believe that the .450 marlin is more or less a belted rimless .45-70, from the days before the hot "lever gun" loads where most .45-70 loadings were designed to be fired in trapdoor springfields.
A little shop in Anchorage, Wild West Guns created a wildcat, the .457 WW Magnum, a stretched out 45-70. A couple years later Marlin pops up with the .450 Marlin which is a .457 with a belt. With the hot 45-70's now available the .450 kind of lost it's role.
Post by: RadSav on January 17, 2012, 09:24:28 AM
Post by: MDGrand on January 17, 2012, 10:02:30 AM
Marlin 1895G, factory ported.
Put a Picatinny rail, Leupold VXR 1.5-4x20 and a wild west big loop lever. Next up is a pachmeyer pad and a duracoat job.
Shoots 325 grain Leverolution ammo at 1.5 MOA at 100 yards.
Just an AWESOME little carbine.
Post by: birdwacker on January 17, 2012, 04:01:46 PM
Post by: MDGrand on January 17, 2012, 04:23:32 PM
I had a stainless guide gun and it got the "Marlin Jam" to many times so I traded it off .I would rather depend on a good defensive shotgun than my single shot marlin. :twocents:
was it fairly new? Apparently the new Marlin's owned by Remington came out crappy. I looked into this heavily before purchasing and wanted an older Marlin for this reason. So far, heavy use.. no problems.
Post by: MikeWalking on January 17, 2012, 07:43:27 PM
I had a stainless guide gun and it got the "Marlin Jam" to many times so I traded it off .I would rather depend on a good defensive shotgun than my single shot marlin. :twocents:
Had that problem once. Once. I bought it in 2003? It had some wicked tool marks in the carrier arm and I'm thinking the rim of one round got caught in one... :dunno:
A stack of emery paper, 800-2000grit, some square blocks and some Clint Eastwood movies. I took the guts out and put a mirror finish on any part that moved against another. A light bevel/chamfer on others. I added some other goodies at that time too. It Cycled a hell of a lot better after that, much smoother too.
Post by: KFhunter on January 17, 2012, 08:06:42 PM
low light?
gloves?
how about 1 armed with a bear chomping on your left arm? could you shoot it then?
just brain storming :chuckle:
Post by: MDGrand on January 17, 2012, 10:03:18 PM
Gloves... Wild west big loop lever.
1 armed.... Game probably over then.. :)
Post by: MikeWalking on January 17, 2012, 10:30:49 PM
whatever gun your choosing just keep in mind how you'll do with a massive adreniline dump shutting down your fine motor skills.
low light?
gloves?
how about 1 armed with a bear chomping on your left arm? could you shoot it then?
just brain storming :chuckle:
If he's got your arm, you're dead... :chuckle:
One my first trip into the Brooks my Pilot laughed at my basketball sized first aid kit. "Mike if you need more than a Band-aid you're gonna die" "If a bear touches you you're gonna die" :chuckle:
It never got dark....
The first Griz to lock eyes with me had some major adrenaline going through me no doubt (I peed about 6 times in the hour after he left, had just finished seconds before seeing him) Jumping to my rifle and levering in a round (had just cleaned it after a day hike) was no challenge. Now, when he turned and started walking away, holding the camera still was something different.
When in camp leave it on the tripod :bash: :chuckle:
Post by: hillbilli on January 18, 2012, 09:40:48 AM
can you say 730gr hard cast full diameter 12 ga?
Oh and just like when we hunted hogs at close quarters, have a sidearm that penetrates well that you are comfortable with..
Post by: MikeWalking on January 18, 2012, 09:55:06 AM
Post by: TwoSixFourWins on January 24, 2012, 04:21:21 PM
Post by: MikeWalking on January 24, 2012, 04:34:28 PM
Garrett has had theirs take down Cape Buffalo, breaking the shoulder going in and shattering the hip at the other corner.
My 1895LTD III was far far smoother than the 1895gs I bought later. Looked like black glass inside and out. When I sold the 1895gs I took all the custom goodies out and put them in the LTD with another mag spring. My eyes like the open buck horn sight better than the ghost ring I had.
Post by: pricedo on January 06, 2013, 12:45:42 AM
The Buffalo Bore web site has a page of testimonial from customers. There have been many big critters taken in Africa with their 45-70 ammo.
Garrett has had theirs take down Cape Buffalo, breaking the shoulder going in and shattering the hip at the other corner.
My 1895LTD III was far far smoother than the 1895gs I bought later. Looked like black glass inside and out. When I sold the 1895gs I took all the custom goodies out and put them in the LTD with another mag spring. My eyes like the open buck horn sight better than the ghost ring I had.
I use the HSM brand "Bear Load" in my 1895G "Guide Gun".
This load puts a 430 grain hard cast lead bullet in the air at 1750 fps and gives me less than 1" 3-shot groups @ 50 yards.
The HSM ammo is significantly cheaper than both Buffalo Bore & Garrett ammo.
Killed a moose and an elk & a very large wild boar with my GG last fall shooting this load.........all 1-shot kills with the animals dropping within 10 yards of the impact location.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on January 06, 2013, 01:57:12 PM
Was in the market myself a while back and got this one for $300 bucks. I am more accurate with a fast shot from a carbine than with a hand gun.. and with this scope I can keep both eyes open.
Marlin 1895G, factory ported.
Put a Picatinny rail, Leupold VXR 1.5-4x20 and a wild west big loop lever. Next up is a pachmeyer pad and a duracoat job.
Shoots 325 grain Leverolution ammo at 1.5 MOA at 100 yards.
Just an AWESOME little carbine.
I have the same exact rifle. I paid $400 for mine at Rockys in Wenatchhe 9 years ago. I also have a T/C Encore 450 Marlin with a 15 " barrel. That will make a man out of you real quick. :chuckle:
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 06, 2013, 02:10:57 PM
Post by: brush hunter on January 06, 2013, 03:49:13 PM
Post by: pricedo on January 07, 2013, 08:37:08 AM
Was in the market myself a while back and got this one for $300 bucks. I am more accurate with a fast shot from a carbine than with a hand gun.. and with this scope I can keep both eyes open.
Marlin 1895G, factory ported.
Put a Picatinny rail, Leupold VXR 1.5-4x20 and a wild west big loop lever. Next up is a pachmeyer pad and a duracoat job.
Shoots 325 grain Leverolution ammo at 1.5 MOA at 100 yards.
Just an AWESOME little carbine.
I like the gun......not fussy about the gummy bear bullets for big bear defense though they'll do for deer & black bears & the Hornady factory LeveRevolution 325 grain FTX 45-70 ammo is indeed very accurate.
I've got a Guide Gun & installed the Wild West Guns Happy Trigger, bear proof ejector & the Brownells cowboy action spring kit along with the X/S sighting system.
Put a Leupold 2-7x33mm scope on Warne QD mounts so I could use the X/S sighting system for close in work or for a back up sighting system if the scope malfunctioned or was busted.
I prefer the 430 grain hard cast lead bullets for the bigger bears.
Post by: magurt on January 08, 2013, 12:51:55 PM
Post by: MikeWalking on January 10, 2013, 10:46:54 AM
Quote
I've got a Guide Gun & installed the Wild West Guns Happy Trigger, bear proof ejector & the Brownells cowboy action spring kit along with the X/S sighting system.
Bet you like that trigger too? :chuckle:
I've got one that I have used in 2 different rifles. Took it out of one before selling it and put it in the next one. :)
Post by: pricedo on January 10, 2013, 11:28:42 AM
QuoteI've got a Guide Gun & installed the Wild West Guns Happy Trigger, bear proof ejector & the Brownells cowboy action spring kit along with the X/S sighting system.
Bet you like that trigger too? :chuckle:
I've got one that I have used in 2 different rifles. Took it out of one before selling it and put it in the next one. :)
A lot better than the factory trigger.......crisp and light........improved accuracy considerably.
Too bad I can't get an after market trigger for my BLRs.........or even better Browning (Miroku) should put a good trigger in the BLR commensurate with it's price range.
Post by: pricedo on December 02, 2013, 01:42:46 PM
Another of my bear rifles in a Winchester model 1886 Extra Light in 45-70 pictured here with 4 boxes of Buffalo Bore ammo featuring the 500 grain Barnes Buster Bullet.
The barrel is 22" long and the rifle weighs slightly over 7 pounds and the iron sights are crisp, fine and very precise..........ideal for bear protection.
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 02, 2013, 05:31:07 PM
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on December 02, 2013, 05:40:30 PM
Post by: HighlandLofts on December 02, 2013, 09:57:16 PM
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on December 02, 2013, 10:10:56 PM
I just picked up a older Marlin 444s at Cableas for $329, They had a 45/70 lever action there a week or so ago.
A guy I worked with years ago bought a Marlin 444 and let my buddy try it at the range. My buddy dropped the hammer on an empty chamber. Never saw such a Flinch! :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: mountainman on December 02, 2013, 11:56:02 PM
Post by: mountainman on December 02, 2013, 11:58:11 PM
Post by: HighlandLofts on December 03, 2013, 05:48:32 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 03, 2013, 06:49:06 AM
It may just be me, but I'll take a reliable 12ga gassed up with 3" slugs any day over a lever gun in close to keep a bear off me.
Both are good medicine but I think I would prefer the way the .45-70 or .444 or .450 Marlin handles upon impact and a decent lever gun can cycle quite quickly
Post by: mountainman on December 03, 2013, 07:32:22 AM
copy that! :tup:It may just be me, but I'll take a reliable 12ga gassed up with 3" slugs any day over a lever gun in close to keep a bear off me.
Both are good medicine but I think I would prefer the way the .45-70 or .444 or .450 Marlin handles upon impact and a decent lever gun can cycle quite quickly
Post by: mountainman on December 03, 2013, 07:58:05 AM
Post by: Bofire on December 03, 2013, 02:24:19 PM
Carl
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 03, 2013, 04:37:38 PM
:) Bear hunting, I'll take the 45-70, bear defense I'll take the 12 gauge. Hunting could be 100 yards, defense is 50 feet or less.
Carl
That's exactly what I was thinking "Bear defense" was the topic. 12ga with good heavy slugs would be my choice as a stopper in close. A quality auto maybe(Benneli M4) but in a case like that a 870 pump is almost just as quick and very dependable of course with a extended tube. There are many different rifles and Chambering's for "Bear Hunting" that I would choose above any lever rifle.
Post by: wadu1 on December 03, 2013, 05:06:12 PM
Post by: mountainman on December 03, 2013, 05:12:10 PM
Post by: mountainman on December 03, 2013, 08:44:32 PM
The guides I have used on Vancouver Island carry Marlin Guide Guns in 45-70. One now is using a Ruger SS Bolt gun in .416 Ruger for Griz. I have the Marlin and an H&R single shot 45.75 with a red dot, I carry the H&R most of the time. :twocents::yeah:they are the ones who would know best!
Post by: MikeWalking on December 05, 2013, 11:17:18 AM
It may just be me, but I'll take a reliable 12ga gassed up with 3" slugs any day over a lever gun in close to keep a bear off me.
Has any 12ga slug ever gone length wise through a Cape Buffalo? Garrett's 45-70 loads have. There a few truly stunning 45-70 loads out there.
Just before my first trip up to the Brooks I saw an article in an Anchorage paper. A 10yo using an 1895 with a Garrett load took an 1100lb coastal brownie at 50 yards, in the left shoulder breaking the right.
Those hammer block safeties come out ;) too.
Post by: mountainman on December 05, 2013, 11:21:21 AM
It may just be me, but I'll take a reliable 12ga gassed up with 3" slugs any day over a lever gun in close to keep a bear off me.
Has any 12ga slug ever gone length wise through a Cape Buffalo? Garrett's 45-70 loads have. There a few truly stunning 45-70 loads out there.
Just before my first trip up to the Brooks I saw an article in an Anchorage paper. A 10yo using an 1895 with Garrett load took an 1100lb coastal brownie at 50 yards, in the left shoulder breaking the right.
Those hammer block safeties come out ;) too.
Totally agree! Some may say they know better tho! ;)
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 05, 2013, 11:47:47 AM
Post by: cohoho on December 06, 2013, 05:35:28 PM
I started carrying a close chest holder - outside exposed handgun in large bore caliber (454) or pepper spray was my preference in AK, unless you got that lever action gun - shouldered up, good luck! This was about Bear defense, right I do not think bear defense is farther than 25-50ft, if they come closer than that, they need to be put down and kept down and down again till there is no motion what so ever! Bear hunting I had my .375.... Several friends had .450 marlins in a back pack holder while fishing that was pretty effective to pull and be on target pretty quickly... Hiked the Russian river a lot to the falls for Reds.. We saw big bears every day....
Post by: jyerxa on December 06, 2013, 06:38:11 PM
I know some guides up there that run 12g's. Most of the time they will have a mag extension and run like 4-5 slugs and the last couple #9 or #8 shot to try and blind the bear. Eyes on any animal are very sensitive and when you spray anything with lead pellets in the face and get the eyes its pretty much game over and you can get away. Hard for a blind and bleeding bear to hunt you down is there motto. I don't know I think I would still be packing a big bore lover gun and probably my 454 casull as a 2nd in that country :tup:
It is going to really sting the nose too. :chuckle:
12g slugs in a tight jam like that would be my choice. But since I wouldn't want to or try for an encounter I think that the casull would be a realistic way to go 24x7. :twocents:
Post by: MikeWalking on December 06, 2013, 07:49:44 PM
Pack my SS 45-70 in the Brooks range this summer on my float trip. The gun gives a person a sense of security. The bears I saw didn't stick around long to test it out though.
Same choice in the same area. Visibility in most area was several hundred yards so quick draw wasn't an issue. Still it hung on me just below port-arms. Of 8 only one didn't run away. I had to take aim and talk him out of coming closer, even then I had several minutes to watch him approach. Hmm? The one that ran away fastest caught me peeing :o :chuckle:
Post by: mountainman on December 06, 2013, 11:26:03 PM
It may just be me, but I'll take a reliable 12ga gassed up with 3" slugs any day over a lever gun in close to keep a bear off me.
Has any 12ga slug ever gone length wise through a Cape Buffalo? Garrett's 45-70 loads have. There a few truly stunning 45-70 loads out there.
Just before my first trip up to the Brooks I saw an article in an Anchorage paper. A 10yo using an 1895 with a Garrett load took an 1100lb coastal brownie at 50 yards, in the left shoulder breaking the right.
Those hammer block safeties come out ;) too.
Thats the point, understood only by sometimes by those that have shot these or comparable loads, in the field in a defensive situation. Stem to stern, straight path, a lots of broken bone in between!. Yes, a slug or lever gun..one shot. I want it to count with as much penetrating, bone breaking power that I can get. Pepper his face with buckshot?? Seriously? You rely on that theory at your own risk..
Post by: MikeWalking on December 07, 2013, 09:25:56 AM
Post by: hillbilli on January 09, 2014, 03:24:36 PM
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on January 09, 2014, 06:41:51 PM
Post by: JLS on January 09, 2014, 06:49:57 PM
There it's something to be said about hydrostatic shock.
When you need an instant kill, hydrostatic shock isn't going to do you much good. You need penetration into the CNS. Solids from a big gun will do that, the .338 included.
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on January 09, 2014, 06:54:20 PM
Post by: JLS on January 09, 2014, 06:57:35 PM
Look at what guides use for dangerous game. Every one of them will use a large caliber rifle with solids in it. That is so their bullets can penetrate hide, bone, and muscle to reach the CNS (brain, spine) and create a lights out kill.
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on January 09, 2014, 07:19:18 PM
Post by: JLS on January 09, 2014, 09:03:27 PM
That's why snipers are trained to take head shots in a hostage situation.
Your partition is a very good bullet, but by design it will shed about 35% of it's mass when it expands. For reliable penetration through bone and heavy hide I would want a bullet that will retain a very high degree of weight.
Nosler Solid Dangerous Game Bullet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sygwGif8_io#ws)
Post by: Bean Counter on January 09, 2014, 10:55:15 PM
... That is so their bullets can penetrate hide, bone, and muscle to reach the CNS (brain, spine) and create a lights out kill.
Having treated open brain injury myself I don't think this statement goes far enough. If you want an instant, "lights out kill," you need to hit the brain stem. That's not only a much smaller target than the general CNS at large, it's also one of the most well protected areas in the body for obvious reasons.
I wouldn't write off a shot to the clavicular area in a bear. Larger, less armored target than the brain stem. How easily can someone be run over in a car missing a tire, CV axle, or tie rod? Similarly, in a shootout with someone wearing body armor, the waist is a more practical target instead of the head.
Post by: coachcw on January 10, 2014, 06:26:32 AM
Post by: JLS on January 10, 2014, 12:18:11 PM
... That is so their bullets can penetrate hide, bone, and muscle to reach the CNS (brain, spine) and create a lights out kill.
Having treated open brain injury myself I don't think this statement goes far enough. If you want an instant, "lights out kill," you need to hit the brain stem. That's not only a much smaller target than the general CNS at large, it's also one of the most well protected areas in the body for obvious reasons.
I wouldn't write off a shot to the clavicular area in a bear. Larger, less armored target than the brain stem. How easily can someone be run over in a car missing a tire, CV axle, or tie rod? Similarly, in a shootout with someone wearing body armor, the waist is a more practical target instead of the head.
You are correct about the brainstem, or the "T zone" as it is sometimes called. For a person wearing body armor, the pelvic shot can be very effective. However, hitting the pelvis of a bear that is charging you would necessitate that you are in a very bad position at that point in time :).
Post by: Mike450r on January 10, 2014, 12:36:07 PM
I ask because I would think thumping a bear pretty good with any round would be better than a fist fight, so if the bear doesn't die instantly their limited thought process may get them to realize you were able to do them harm before they got to you and stop the attack. Showing you mean business in any dangerous encounter is the way to go in my book.
Post by: wildmanoutdoors on January 10, 2014, 12:56:31 PM
Post by: Mike450r on January 10, 2014, 01:12:15 PM
IMO bears and other dangerous game don't have that thought process or "realizing" thoughts. Once there mind is made up to charge and eat you you have to stop them before they reach you. When a human gets shot they know form tv, news ect they are wounded and go into a different mode. Animals do not.
I agree and disagree, it depends on the nature of the attack. Sometimes it is kill or be killed but predators of all species have also given up and turned tail after their prey delivers an unexpected butt whuppin.
Post by: wildmanoutdoors on January 10, 2014, 03:01:12 PM
IMO bears and other dangerous game don't have that thought process or "realizing" thoughts. Once there mind is made up to charge and eat you you have to stop them before they reach you. When a human gets shot they know form tv, news ect they are wounded and go into a different mode. Animals do not.
I agree and disagree, it depends on the nature of the attack. Sometimes it is kill or be killed but predators of all species have also given up and turned tail after their prey delivers an unexpected butt whuppin.
I agree too. I think it defenatily depends on the situation. If a battle insures, I think they may turn. But one quick hit may not deter at all. If your gonna shoot. Your shooting to stop it before it reaches that battle point. Cause we don't wanna go there with dangerous game. Too many stories about wounded big game getting more po'd.
Post by: wildmanoutdoors on January 10, 2014, 03:02:48 PM
Post by: mountainman on January 10, 2014, 03:15:48 PM
Post by: kodiak 907 on January 15, 2014, 07:24:01 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 15, 2014, 07:54:46 AM
After all. A bear can charge full speed for 300 yards or so after it's heart stops!
I'm no biologist but this sounds a little extreme :o I know animals are able to keep moving at an incredible speed and length of time after the heart stops but I don't know about a 300 yard charge.
45-70 with at least 405 grain.
:yeah: if that would have been the first and only post, I believe the OP would have all the info they need. I get that a 12 gauge "all gassed up" is appealing but I don't think most of those people are considering the incredible denseness of a grizzly's hide and fat. .45/70s have killed a lot of bear for well over 100 years.
The idea that a .45/70s or .450 Marlins or .444s are good for bear hunting but not bear defense is ludicrous. Should I hunt with my .45/70 but carry a shotgun in case they charge :chuckle:
Post by: mountainman on January 20, 2014, 09:34:18 PM
well said!! Some peoples only experience is from "reading" about works best, as opposed to actually having first hand experience. I have used both, and the bigbore rifle wins hand down every time! :tup:After all. A bear can charge full speed for 300 yards or so after it's heart stops!
I'm no biologist but this sounds a little extreme :o I know animals are able to keep moving at an incredible speed and length of time after the heart stops but I don't know about a 300 yard charge.45-70 with at least 405 grain.
:yeah: if that would have been the first and only post, I believe the OP would have all the info they need. I get that a 12 gauge "all gassed up" is appealing but I don't think most of those people are considering the incredible denseness of a grizzly's hide and fat. .45/70s have killed a lot of bear for well over 100 years.
The idea that a .45/70s or .450 Marlins or .444s are good for bear hunting but not bear defense is ludicrous. Should I hunt with my .45/70 but carry a shotgun in case they charge :chuckle:
Post by: salmonchaser on January 20, 2014, 10:18:04 PM
Some good information and a lot that's going to get you in trouble. The state of Alaska has a report on the subject. In order of documented success.
1 bear spray
2 hand guns
3 long guns, statistically even between rifles and shotguns.
I had my first close encounter at age six in Denali, I've bumped into quite a few every summer since.
I guide every summer out in Bristol bay and have been way to close on a couple of occasions, I've had to spray two but never had to shoot one.
I always travel armed with both a fire arm and spray.
The 45/70 works, so does anything more potent than a 44 mag.The reason hand guns have been more effective than long guns is quite simple, slung on your back or set on a log while fishing the rifle is not handy when needed.
I have my long guns on tactical slings so they are instantly ready.
Also generally speaking if you are not looking at a head on shot from very close range,you will have trouble justifying a shooting.
Post by: HighlandLofts on January 22, 2014, 08:53:01 AM
Post by: johnny b on January 22, 2014, 03:49:40 PM
Either a 25 acp or 380 auto for me.
[/quote What happens if your hunting partner is also carrying a 25 acp or 380 auto? If he goes 1 to the knee like you plan it will be main course and dessert for the bear :chuckle:.
Post by: ssanthuff on January 28, 2014, 12:38:15 AM
When I purchased the Marlin I was planning a grizzly hunt and asked a gun smith to build me the best lever gun for the hunt. He went with the Marlin 1895 and replaced the extractor, magazine follower and trigger with parts from Wild West Guns. He topped the gun with the XS rail and an intermediate eye relief Leupold scope with quick release Leupold rings and ghost ring backup sight. In grizzly territory I'd also carry a side arm. The gunsmith I used also set me up with a Magnum Research BFR in 454 Casull as a sidearm.
Post by: kodiak 907 on January 28, 2014, 08:01:23 AM