.45-70 lever action as bear defence?

[mountainman]

It may just be me, but I'll take a reliable 12ga gassed up with 3" slugs any day over a lever gun in close to keep a bear off me.

Has any 12ga slug ever gone length wise through a Cape Buffalo?  Garrett's 45-70 loads have. There a few truly stunning 45-70 loads out there.

Just before my first trip up to the Brooks I saw an article in an Anchorage paper. A 10yo using an 1895 with a Garrett load took an 1100lb coastal brownie at 50 yards, in the left shoulder breaking the right.

Those hammer block safeties come out too.

Thats the point, understood only by sometimes by those that have shot these or comparable loads, in the field in a defensive situation. Stem to stern, straight path, a lots of broken bone in between!. Yes, a slug or lever gun..one shot. I want it to count with as much penetrating, bone breaking power that I can get. Pepper his face with buckshot?? Seriously? You rely on that theory at your own risk..

[MikeWalking]

I've heard a lot of talk about a mix of buckshot and slugs, buckshot to blind the eyes and bloody the nose.  Sure it might give you the chance to get away some bit.  But if the bear is charging from close in, it might still run you over 

[hillbilli]

considering the dramatic failures I've read about with buckshot on Leopard size animals- I dont think I'd use buckshot... as to slugs- I wouldnt feel undergunned, but choose wisely, as there is a huge difference in penetration between a lead foster (rem/win)slug, and a 600gr brenneke or a dixie slugs 730gr hardcast..  http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

[Wanttohuntmore]

Not impressed with slugs or the 45-70.  I'd take a BAR in 338.  Just watch some of those whitetails shot through the boiler room on the sportsmans channel with slugs, they sure can run far.  Or the 5 elk we've shot in the boiler with 400 grain 45cal loads, almost always made it 110 yds.  There it's something to be said about hydrostatic shock.

[JLS]

There it's something to be said about hydrostatic shock.

When you need an instant kill, hydrostatic shock isn't going to do you much good.  You need penetration into the CNS.  Solids from a big gun will do that, the .338 included.

[Wanttohuntmore]

If penetration into the CNS is all that is needed, a fmj in an AR15 would work.  Shock stops bear.  Holes just piss 'em off.

[JLS]

Well, given that a FMJ 5.56 round is designed to yaw and tumble once inside of its target, I don't think it's really an appropriate analogy. 

Look at what guides use for dangerous game.  Every one of them will use a large caliber rifle with solids in it.  That is so their bullets can penetrate hide, bone, and muscle to reach the CNS (brain, spine) and create a lights out kill.

[Wanttohuntmore]

So you better shoot for the brain or spine?  I'll take a 338 with a partition anyday over solids, unless in Africa.  When I was in Alaska fishing, we packed super blackhawk 44's.  Yes I felt under gunned.  But it was readily available vs. a rifle slung over my back, and less cumbersome.  If going up again on a fishing trip, a 454 or 460 s&w alaskan would be in my holster.  But I'd prefer a BAR.   

[JLS]

The only shot that will guarantee a DRT kill is a CNS shot.  I'm not saying you can't have quick kills by hitting the boiler room, but if you want sudden incapacitation you have to take out the circuit board and/or the wiring.

That's why snipers are trained to take head shots in a hostage situation.

Your partition is a very good bullet, but by design it will shed about 35% of it's mass when it expands.  For reliable penetration through bone and heavy hide I would want a bullet that will retain a very high degree of weight.

Nosler Solid Dangerous Game Bullet

[Bean Counter]

... That is so their bullets can penetrate hide, bone, and muscle to reach the CNS (brain, spine) and create a lights out kill.

Having treated open brain injury myself I don't think this statement goes far enough. If you want an instant, "lights out kill," you need to hit the brain stem. That's not only a much smaller target than the general CNS at large, it's also one of the most well protected areas in the body for obvious reasons.

I wouldn't write off a shot to the clavicular area in a bear. Larger, less armored target than the brain stem. How easily can someone be run over in a car missing a tire, CV axle, or tie rod? Similarly, in a shootout with someone wearing body armor, the waist is a more practical target instead of the head.

[coachcw]

my vote would be the .460 or .500m sw I may even concider rotating rounds in the cylinder between a fmj and a polymer hollow tip .

[JLS]

... That is so their bullets can penetrate hide, bone, and muscle to reach the CNS (brain, spine) and create a lights out kill.

Having treated open brain injury myself I don't think this statement goes far enough. If you want an instant, "lights out kill," you need to hit the brain stem. That's not only a much smaller target than the general CNS at large, it's also one of the most well protected areas in the body for obvious reasons.

I wouldn't write off a shot to the clavicular area in a bear. Larger, less armored target than the brain stem. How easily can someone be run over in a car missing a tire, CV axle, or tie rod? Similarly, in a shootout with someone wearing body armor, the waist is a more practical target instead of the head.

You are correct about the brainstem, or the "T zone" as it is sometimes called.  For a person wearing body armor, the pelvic shot can be very effective.  However, hitting the pelvis of a bear that is charging you would necessitate that you are in a very bad position at that point in time  .

[Mike450r]

Are there any statistics showing how many fatal or serious injury grizzly attacks have been after a bear has been shot versus attacking an unarmed person? 

I ask because I would think thumping a bear pretty good with any round would be better than a fist fight, so if the bear doesn't die instantly their limited thought process may get them to realize you were able to do them harm before they got to you and stop the attack.  Showing you mean business in any dangerous encounter is the way to go in my book.   

[wildmanoutdoors]

IMO bears and other dangerous game don't have that thought process or "realizing" thoughts. Once there mind is made up to charge and eat you you have to stop them before they reach you. When a human gets shot they know form tv, news ect they are wounded and go into a different mode. Animals do not.

[Mike450r]

IMO bears and other dangerous game don't have that thought process or "realizing" thoughts. Once there mind is made up to charge and eat you you have to stop them before they reach you. When a human gets shot they know form tv, news ect they are wounded and go into a different mode. Animals do not.

I agree and disagree,  it depends on the nature of the attack.  Sometimes it is kill or be killed but predators of all species have also given up and turned tail after their prey delivers an unexpected butt whuppin.