Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Muzzleloader Hunting => Topic started by: 253shotgunner on January 01, 2021, 11:37:09 AM

Title: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 253shotgunner on January 01, 2021, 11:37:09 AM
I thought I saw a reference to a possible rule change for allowing scopes on muzzleloaders in 2021. Is this real and where can I find the draft language? Thanks, 253shotgunner
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: cem3434 on January 01, 2021, 11:45:19 AM
I hope not, that would push a lot more guys into muzzleloading due to the better and longer seasons.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 01, 2021, 11:57:55 AM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/equipmentproposals_public_0.pdf (https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/equipmentproposals_public_0.pdf)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: buckfvr on January 01, 2021, 12:15:15 PM
 :bdid:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 253shotgunner on January 01, 2021, 12:21:16 PM
Bob33 thanks! Now we know the proposed change is for 1x scopes and WDFW is against scopes with magnification.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 01, 2021, 12:58:19 PM
A 1X scope would really help my old eyes. 

It's frustrating trying to shoot iron sights these days. 

In my case, what was easy to see 10 years ago is now a blur.  I simply cant focus on sights AND target.   

I get both sides, but in my case I'd put a 1X scope on asap when legal. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: buckfvr on January 01, 2021, 01:05:53 PM
A 1X scope would really help my old eyes. 

It's frustrating trying to shoot iron sights these days. 

In my case, what was easy to see 19 years ago is now a blur.  I simply cant foxis on sights AND target.   

I get both sides, but in my case I'd put a 1X scooe on asap when legal.

Ive always been against tech increases for supposed primitive weapons seasons, but I cant deny the idea of a 1x focusable scope would be something Id not pass on. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bigdub257 on January 01, 2021, 01:49:07 PM
A 1X scope would really help my old eyes. 

It's frustrating trying to shoot iron sights these days. 

In my case, what was easy to see 10 years ago is now a blur.  I simply cant focus on sights AND target.   

I get both sides, but in my case I'd put a 1X scope on asap when legal.

 :yeah:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dub870 on January 01, 2021, 02:15:27 PM
But who makes a 1x scope that does not have any electronics in it? I do not see much.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: full choke on January 01, 2021, 02:18:45 PM
And people in Washington wonder why our seasons suck, and the game is dwindling.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on January 01, 2021, 02:19:02 PM
But who makes a 1x scope that does not have any electronics in it? I do not see much.

Looks like maybe vortex and Thompson center make one (I just googled it and they were the first two results).
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on January 01, 2021, 02:20:03 PM
And people in Washington wonder why our seasons suck, and the game is dwindling.

Not because of a 1X scope being allowed on a muzzleloader...
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: WapitiTalk1 on January 01, 2021, 02:25:39 PM
Not sure a 1X scope would be any better for accuracy over an iron peep site setup at reasonable ML distances? I really donít know, just started into ML recently.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Special T on January 01, 2021, 02:28:32 PM
A 1X scope would really help my old eyes. 

It's frustrating trying to shoot iron sights these days. 

In my case, what was easy to see 10 years ago is now a blur.  I simply cant focus on sights AND target.   

I get both sides, but in my case I'd put a 1X scope on asap when legal.
This is what i heard was the reasoning. I belive something similar came up for bow hunters... something about how all you guys are getting old and need cheater and such to see.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: full choke on January 01, 2021, 02:31:06 PM
Death by a thousand cuts.
Inlines, waterproof primers, scopes- it all adds up.

People on this site love to bag on Seattle politics- you get what you vote for. These game regs are the exact same thing. If you want a PRIMITIVE weapon season- keep it PRIMITIVE. But no, everybody wants to cheat a little bit and make it just a bit easier or more comfortable.

Don't complain with the season reductions, permit reductions, and lack of opportunities. IT will be coming.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 01, 2021, 02:34:29 PM
Not sure a 1X scope would be any better for accuracy over an iron peep site setup at reasonable ML distances? I really donít know, just started into ML recently.

For some of us old guys it would make a huge difference.   

I've hunted muzzleloader for 40 years.   

Until 10 years ago, I could focus on both the sights and the target reasonably well.  I wasnt winning any shooting competitions but I would shoot 75 yardage and could keep them in a 2" group every outing.   

My eyes are no longer as resilient/flexible.   I really have to choose between focusing on the sights OR the target.  My accuracy has suffered badly. 

A 1X scope would really help me.   
I know several older guys in this boat.  Our eyes just cant do it anymore. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 01, 2021, 02:37:38 PM
Death by a thousand cuts.
Inlines, waterproof primers, scopes- it all adds up.

People on this site love to bag on Seattle politics- you get what you vote for. These game regs are the exact same thing. If you want a PRIMITIVE weapon season- keep it PRIMITIVE. But no, everybody wants to cheat a little bit and make it just a bit easier or more comfortable.

Don't complain with the season reductions, permit reductions, and lack of opportunities. IT will be coming.

You'll get no argument from me. 

I was against inlines and all that stuff.   Carried my Hawkins for decades.

Here I find myself not able to focus on iron sights.........   yeah, I'd put a 1X scope on even though I have always said I was against technology creep. 

That probably makes me a hypocrite.   
But I'd love to hunt a few more years.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 01, 2021, 02:41:35 PM
Not sure a 1X scope would be any better for accuracy over an iron peep site setup at reasonable ML distances? I really donít know, just started into ML recently.

For some of us old guys it would make a huge difference.   

I've hunted muzzleloader for 40 years.   

Until 10 years ago, I could focus on both the sights and the target reasonably well.  I wasnt winning any shooting competitions but I would shoot 75 yardage and could keep them in a 2" group every outing.   

My eyes are no longer as resilient/flexible.   I really have to choose between focusing on the sights OR the target.  My accuracy has suffered badly. 

A 1X scope would really help me.   
I know several older guys in this boat.  Our eyes just cant do it anymore.
Not just an age thing, if you hunt the really heavy stuff you may not have the light needed for open sights for an hour or so later than legal shooting begins.  I would assume a 1x of decent clarity would eliminate that issue.  I'm not advocating for the optic yet, though.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Stein on January 01, 2021, 02:48:14 PM
The higher the harvest rate, the more limitations will be placed on the seasons.  I don't hunt muzzie in WA, but would be thinking about that when I gave any feedback on increasing the effectiveness of smoke poles, they are hugely popular and small changes can have big results sometimes, especially when several changes happen quickly.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Wetwoodshunter on January 01, 2021, 02:57:44 PM
I hope that this happens. I have a friend that quit muzzleloading because his eyes can't focus on both sights at the same time due to getting older.

Scopes would be no problem for him and get him back out during the season he loved so much.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 01, 2021, 03:23:55 PM
If you have vision disabilities you can apply for a scope exemption.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: WapitiTalk1 on January 01, 2021, 03:28:39 PM
Not sure a 1X scope would be any better for accuracy over an iron peep site setup at reasonable ML distances? I really donít know, just started into ML recently.

For some of us old guys it would make a huge difference.   

I've hunted muzzleloader for 40 years.   

Until 10 years ago, I could focus on both the sights and the target reasonably well.  I wasnt winning any shooting competitions but I would shoot 75 yardage and could keep them in a 2" group every outing.   

My eyes are no longer as resilient/flexible.   I really have to choose between focusing on the sights OR the target.  My accuracy has suffered badly. 

A 1X scope would really help me.   
I know several older guys in this boat.  Our eyes just cant do it anymore.

Gotcha, thanks. Ya, Iím a seasoned hunter myself (6+ decades on the big green planet).
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 01, 2021, 03:33:24 PM
If you have vision disabilities you can apply for a scope exemption.

Thanks.
I will definitely look into this.

Any hints on where to start this process?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: suga on January 01, 2021, 03:34:23 PM
 :DOH:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 01, 2021, 03:37:57 PM
If you have vision disabilities you can apply for a scope exemption.

Thanks.
I will definitely look into this.

Any hints on where to start this process?

I would call Olympia. I saw it on the muzzleloader season summary on an internet search.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BreezyBear on January 01, 2021, 03:39:58 PM
But who makes a 1x scope that does not have any electronics in it? I do not see much.

Looks like maybe vortex and Thompson center make one (I just googled it and they were the first two results).

The Vortex one is discontinued  :bash:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 01, 2021, 03:42:05 PM
I expect we will see more and more expansions in allowable hunting equipment. As states like Washington lose hunters and their associated revenues their game departments will attempt to attract and retain hunters by allowing more equipment choices. I foresee that scoped muzzleloaders, crossbows for archery, cellular trail cameras, .22 centerfires for big game, even drones will be put forth for consideration. Short-term gains with long-term consequences. :twocents:

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: buckfvr on January 01, 2021, 03:42:52 PM
If you have vision disabilities you can apply for a scope exemption.

Thanks.
I will definitely look into this.

Any hints on where to start this process?

Im pretty sure there are hoops to jump through, same as say you have a bad shoulder and cant pull your bow any more.  Friend tried on the shoulder thing and he was told that in order to qualify he would have to go the route of surgical correction if recommended, and then apply if that didnt work based on doctors report.  So if that is criteria (im not sure), if your eyes could be surgically repaired, that would be the course of action first.  Now maybe something on the line of macular degeneration might get you the scope, but again hinged on doctor who files your paper work.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: CP on January 01, 2021, 03:44:07 PM
Not that I'm opposed, but I just can't visualize one of these on my Bighorn.  And I'd need some sort of blast shield to keep the primer gases off of it.  Co-witness?

When I first saw this thread I thought "at least 5 pages of haters flaming technology"  ...   so far it's surprisingly civil.







Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: buckfvr on January 01, 2021, 03:44:56 PM
I expect we will see more and more expansions in allowable hunting equipment. As states like Washington lose hunters and their associated revenues their game departments will attempt to attract and retain hunters by allowing more equipment choices. I foresee that scoped muzzleloaders, crossbows for archery, cellular trail cameras, .22 centerfires for big game, even drones will be put forth for consideration. Short-term gains with long-term consequences. :twocents:


I think theres much more "taketh" than "giveth" on the horizon.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: callturner on January 01, 2021, 04:00:33 PM
They allow scopes for bad eyes. My buddy has a permit for the scope and a permit for crossbow archery.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: buckfvr on January 01, 2021, 04:31:25 PM
I dont think age related vision decline qualifies as a disability.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 01, 2021, 04:52:50 PM
Visual impairment qualifications

Blindness is a central visual acuity that does not exceed 20/200 in the better eye with corrective lenses, or the widest diameter of the visual field does not exceed twenty degrees, or

Low Vision is a severe loss of visual acuity ranging from 20/70 to 20/200 while retaining some visual function, or

Visual impairments may include, but are not limited to: Albinism, Aniridia, Aphakia, Cataracts, Glaucoma, Macular Degeneration, or other similar diagnosed permanent disease or disorder.

Not included: Hyperopia, Myopia, Astigmatism, and Presbyopia type conditions.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: buckfvr on January 01, 2021, 05:04:05 PM
First thing Id recommend is an eye appointment to see if any of you older guys have cataracts.  I had them and they were to the point that insurance covered the lions share of out with the cataracts and in with the new lenses.  You cant imagine the difference unless youve had it done. 

Thanks for posting that Bob.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 01, 2021, 05:12:28 PM
Visual impairment qualifications

Blindness is a central visual acuity that does not exceed 20/200 in the better eye with corrective lenses, or the widest diameter of the visual field does not exceed twenty degrees, or

Low Vision is a severe loss of visual acuity ranging from 20/70 to 20/200 while retaining some visual function, or

Visual impairments may include, but are not limited to: Albinism, Aniridia, Aphakia, Cataracts, Glaucoma, Macular Degeneration, or other similar diagnosed permanent disease or disorder.

Not included: Hyperopia, Myopia, Astigmatism, and Presbyopia type conditions.

Bob to the rescue ....   again. 

Thanks Bob. 

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dub870 on January 01, 2021, 05:20:20 PM
Not that I'm opposed, but I just can't visualize one of these on my Bighorn.  And I'd need some sort of blast shield to keep the primer gases off of it.  Co-witness?

When I first saw this thread I thought "at least 5 pages of haters flaming technology"  ...   so far it's surprisingly civil.

But they did not mention 1X scopes with electronics so with the current regs that would rule out red dots and the like.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on January 01, 2021, 05:22:28 PM
The fact that people are getting exempted or disabled status just so they can use a scope, when there is another option ,it's called modern firearm.
It's a slippery slope,soon your primitive weapon season will be joined with modern firearm.Seasons shorten,along with a number of things that can happen.

I feel for anybody that are getting old ,I can't walk as far as when I was young.Im going def in one ear with the other not far behind.my vision in the scope is not as clear as it was many years ago .But the difference is I'm not asking for a disable handout.As far I'm concerned you still have options to hunt.
Be careful what you wish for ,you may receive it and more.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 01, 2021, 05:55:04 PM
I am totally against scopes on muzzle loaders. Imo the limiting factor right now is the sights, as it should be.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Magnum_Willys on January 01, 2021, 06:00:19 PM
One power scope = 300 yards.   Switching to Muzzy !!!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on January 01, 2021, 06:03:30 PM
 I'm not sure where I am at with this one... but  my eyes aren't what they were and the accuracy is suffering with the old peep sights....  Can't say I am against it but I also get the slippery slope aspect.... when would the info be finalized?

as far as WDFW giving disability concessions.... they don't just hand them out like candy, I know some older guys who have tried and they aren't easy to get.  I'm all for it for the guys who need it if it helps keep them in the field.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bigdub257 on January 01, 2021, 06:07:02 PM
Maybe it should only apply based on age, such as 65 and over. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: huntingfool7 on January 01, 2021, 06:19:05 PM
But who makes a 1x scope that does not have any electronics in it? I do not see much.

I don't see anything available on the market.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: CP on January 01, 2021, 06:31:09 PM
Not that I'm opposed, but I just can't visualize one of these on my Bighorn.  And I'd need some sort of blast shield to keep the primer gases off of it.  Co-witness?

When I first saw this thread I thought "at least 5 pages of haters flaming technology"  ...   so far it's surprisingly civil.

But they did not mention 1X scopes with electronics so with the current regs that would rule out red dots and the like.

Illuminated recitals are legal in WA, why would this be any different?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: cem3434 on January 01, 2021, 06:35:13 PM
Not that I'm opposed, but I just can't visualize one of these on my Bighorn.  And I'd need some sort of blast shield to keep the primer gases off of it.  Co-witness?

When I first saw this thread I thought "at least 5 pages of haters flaming technology"  ...   so far it's surprisingly civil.

But they did not mention 1X scopes with electronics so with the current regs that would rule out red dots and the like.

Illuminated recitals are legal in WA, why would this be any different?

Not for big game.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on January 01, 2021, 06:46:52 PM
Not that I'm opposed, but I just can't visualize one of these on my Bighorn.  And I'd need some sort of blast shield to keep the primer gases off of it.  Co-witness?

When I first saw this thread I thought "at least 5 pages of haters flaming technology"  ...   so far it's surprisingly civil.

But they did not mention 1X scopes with electronics so with the current regs that would rule out red dots and the like.

Illuminated recitals are legal in WA, why would this be any different?

Not for big game.

Where do the regs say that?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on January 01, 2021, 07:35:56 PM
Not that I'm opposed, but I just can't visualize one of these on my Bighorn.  And I'd need some sort of blast shield to keep the primer gases off of it.  Co-witness?

When I first saw this thread I thought "at least 5 pages of haters flaming technology"  ...   so far it's surprisingly civil.

But they did not mention 1X scopes with electronics so with the current regs that would rule out red dots and the like.

Illuminated recitals are legal in WA, why would this be any different?

Not for big game.

Where do the regs say that?

They donít, they are legal in Washington. A topic from 2017 on this very forum covered it.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 01, 2021, 07:41:08 PM
In general illuminated reticles are legal. In the case of muzzleloaders they wouldn't be unless this restriction is changed:

(c) It is unlawful to have any electrical device or equipment attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on January 01, 2021, 07:43:26 PM
In general illuminated reticles are legal. In the case of muzzleloaders they wouldn't be unless this restriction is changed:

(c) It is unlawful to have any electrical device or equipment attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting.
:yeah:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on January 01, 2021, 07:57:46 PM
I know tc made a hawken 1x scope for awhile. Not to many out there that are 1x unless we are talking red dots then skyís the limit. Like said though they would also have to change the restrictions on battery/electronics to let red dot be ok.

Maybe leupold or someone would make up a solid 1x scope for the market if it passes.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 01, 2021, 09:21:23 PM
Leupold made a 1x shotgun scope years ago.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on January 01, 2021, 09:23:11 PM
 Does  anyone beside me think this will ruin muzzleloading as it will make MORE people flock to this season than the already rising numbers as there becoming more and more capable for longer distance
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: nwhunter on January 01, 2021, 09:28:50 PM
I used to argue against scopes on muzzies until I hit my mid 40's and eyes started going bad. Now open sights or a peep is blurry and with my readers on I can't see the target so I understand the reasoning behind it. I don't think it will suddenly get guys shooting 200 yards with them but it may keep some of the older guys in the game..
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 01, 2021, 09:38:40 PM
I used to argue against scopes on muzzies until I hit my mid 40's and eyes started going bad. Now open sights or a peep is blurry and with my readers on I can't see the target so I understand the reasoning behind it. I don't think it will suddenly get guys shooting 200 yards with them but it may keep some of the older guys in the game..

That.   
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: huntnphool on January 01, 2021, 10:03:46 PM
Death by a thousand cuts.
Inlines, waterproof primers, scopes- it all adds up.

 Fire sticks next? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 01, 2021, 10:15:01 PM
I really hope they donít approve this. A 1x scope would be a huge accuracy advantage over iron sights. There is a season where long range weapons with scopes are allowed if a person wants or needs that option. Letís keep the muzzy woods a relatively less crowded spot place..
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 01, 2021, 10:18:14 PM
I used to argue against scopes on muzzies until I hit my mid 40's and eyes started going bad. Now open sights or a peep is blurry and with my readers on I can't see the target so I understand the reasoning behind it. I don't think it will suddenly get guys shooting 200 yards with them but it may keep some of the older guys in the game..

I would feel very confident at 200 with fine crosshairs on a 1x. Hell I would feel pretty good to 300.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: cem3434 on January 01, 2021, 10:37:42 PM
In general illuminated reticles are legal. In the case of muzzleloaders they wouldn't be unless this restriction is changed:

(c) It is unlawful to have any electrical device or equipment attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting.

 :yeah: This is what I was referring too since we are specifically discussing muzzleloaders. Thanks for clarifying this Bob.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mr Mykiss on January 01, 2021, 10:38:17 PM
Why not. Atta girl WA
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Wizekrakr on January 02, 2021, 06:14:03 AM
Hey guys and gals.  I just joined the forum last week.  Mostly just lurking and reading.  You guys make some real good points.  Saw this topic and just had to chime in. I fall into the group of old guys who wish they could still see the iron sights on their rifles. Accuracy has suffered horribly in the last 10 years. I would welcome the opportunity to put some sights on my Big Horn that would give me a better sight picture. I don't think it is the sights on a muzzy that attracts hunters to the season or distracts them from it. It's all about pouring powder and stuffing a bullet down the barrel.  Peep sight, open sight, plain sight or 1x scope sight, is not what the muzzy is about. Pour the powder, keep it dry and then you get ONE shot.  Modern hunters are not going to flock to the muzzy season because of a sight change. I am sure there will be less wounded animals with that ONE shot too.  The funny part of all of this is nobody makes a 1x scope anymore.  They have all been discontinued. Weaver, TC and Nikon all made one at one time. If WDFW approves this come March, the price of used 1x scopes will go up nicely if you have one.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on January 02, 2021, 07:20:47 AM
I used to argue against scopes on muzzies until I hit my mid 40's and eyes started going bad. Now open sights or a peep is blurry and with my readers on I can't see the target so I understand the reasoning behind it. I don't think it will suddenly get guys shooting 200 yards with them but it may keep some of the older guys in the game..

That.

So what I read is you want to hunt modern , with a modern rifle because of your eyesight ?  And I can shoot 200 with my knight ultralight in a very decent group all day a scope would make it that much easier and yes it would make people flock to muzzleloding because we know we really do get the best seasons
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on January 02, 2021, 07:25:14 AM
Hey guys and gals.  I just joined the forum last week.  Mostly just lurking and reading.  You guys make some real good points.  Saw this topic and just had to chime in. I fall into the group of old guys who wish they could still see the iron sights on their rifles. Accuracy has suffered horribly in the last 10 years. I would welcome the opportunity to put some sights on my Big Horn that would give me a better sight picture. I don't think it is the sights on a muzzy that attracts hunters to the season or distracts them from it. It's all about pouring powder and stuffing a bullet down the barrel.  Peep sight, open sight, plain sight or 1x scope sight, is not what the muzzy is about. Pour the powder, keep it dry and then you get ONE shot.  Modern hunters are not going to flock to the muzzy season because of a sight change. I am sure there will be less wounded animals with that ONE shot too.  The funny part of all of this is nobody makes a 1x scope anymore.  They have all been discontinued. Weaver, TC and Nikon all made one at one time. If WDFW approves this come March, the price of used 1x scopes will go up nicely if you have one.

People will flock to it just as they have because a lot less chance of fire closures , the best early and late seasons usually fall within muzzy season, and if you canít see how much further muzzleloaders are shooting now well you havenít paid attention much , and yes a scope will in fact bring more people and keeping the powder dry not really a terrible concern much any more since we can use the 209primers another huge advantage to us just cause itís one shot means nothing animals getting wounded by rushed shots with modern rifles as well
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on January 02, 2021, 07:32:25 AM
I'm assuming Alot of muzzleloader scopes have drop reticle in them .So it's not just advantage of seeing better.But also shooting further. :dunno:
C'mon don't lie now ,it's not all about seeing better.
If you can shoot past 200 yards consistently with a drop reticle ,I don't really consider it primitive weapon.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on January 02, 2021, 07:34:34 AM
I'm assuming Alot of muzzleloader scopes have drop reticle in them .So it's not just advantage of seeing better.But also shooting further. :dunno:
C'mon don't lie now ,it's not all about seeing better.

Exactly
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Magnum_Willys on January 02, 2021, 07:44:24 AM
With my eyesight I love the idea.   If I wanted a challenge I would stick with modern rifle.   You see a guy that gets elk regularly with modern rifle in w washington - now thats a real hunter!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: MIKEXRAY on January 02, 2021, 07:56:43 AM
Any " feature " added to archery, muzzy or rifle will increase success at some level even if minutely causing opportunities in areas and seasons to decrease. I think we should be going in the opposite direction with equipment.  If one segment doesn't work for you anymore then move to another segment that does. One thing we can ALL agree on is we want more opportunities.  I'm 56 YO and have trouble with blurry bowsight pins and understand everyone's pain above.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 02, 2021, 07:59:04 AM
Hey guys and gals.  I just joined the forum last week.  Mostly just lurking and reading.  You guys make some real good points.  Saw this topic and just had to chime in. I fall into the group of old guys who wish they could still see the iron sights on their rifles. Accuracy has suffered horribly in the last 10 years. I would welcome the opportunity to put some sights on my Big Horn that would give me a better sight picture. I don't think it is the sights on a muzzy that attracts hunters to the season or distracts them from it. It's all about pouring powder and stuffing a bullet down the barrel.  Peep sight, open sight, plain sight or 1x scope sight, is not what the muzzy is about. Pour the powder, keep it dry and then you get ONE shot.  Modern hunters are not going to flock to the muzzy season because of a sight change. I am sure there will be less wounded animals with that ONE shot too.  The funny part of all of this is nobody makes a 1x scope anymore.  They have all been discontinued. Weaver, TC and Nikon all made one at one time. If WDFW approves this come March, the price of used 1x scopes will go up nicely if you have one.

In my experience you usually get 2-3 shots with a muzzy. For whatever thatís worth.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 02, 2021, 08:14:34 AM
Ok, no scope for deer and elk. Let's have a year round season for bears and cougars with non-illuminated scopes on muzzleloaders. After a few years they can evaluate how much more lethal the scope is.

 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 02, 2021, 08:41:58 AM
Ok, no scope for deer and elk. Let's have a year round season for bears and cougars with non-illuminated scopes on muzzleloaders. After a few years they can evaluate how much more lethal the scope is.

 :chuckle:

Open spring bear with muzzy and scope? That would be awesome and super productive. Clearly more productive then the no year around season we have now.. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 02, 2021, 08:56:31 AM
I used to argue against scopes on muzzies until I hit my mid 40's and eyes started going bad. Now open sights or a peep is blurry and with my readers on I can't see the target so I understand the reasoning behind it. I don't think it will suddenly get guys shooting 200 yards with them but it may keep some of the older guys in the game..

That.

So what I read is you want to hunt modern , with a modern rifle because of your eyesight ?  And I can shoot 200 with my knight ultralight in a very decent group all day a scope would make it that much easier and yes it would make people flock to muzzleloding because we know we really do get the best seasons
I think the season timing, particularly the early season, is what draws the most over to the muzzy.  Next would be unit availability.  The technology and modernizing of the weapon do help quite a bit.  My guess is that adding days to early season or having early units the same as late units would bring in the most.  Now, would it be the actual tech advances or the uptick in harvest to cause more modern guys to switch?  I know guys that happily hunted modern in units that saw drops in harvest (for modern) after muzzy season was added in their unit, a fair number made the switch.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 02, 2021, 11:21:42 AM
I used to argue against scopes on muzzies until I hit my mid 40's and eyes started going bad. Now open sights or a peep is blurry and with my readers on I can't see the target so I understand the reasoning behind it. I don't think it will suddenly get guys shooting 200 yards with them but it may keep some of the older guys in the game..

That.

So what I read is you want to hunt modern , with a modern rifle because of your eyesight ?  And I can shoot 200 with my knight ultralight in a very decent group all day a scope would make it that much easier and yes it would make people flock to muzzleloding because we know we really do get the best seasons

Yeah......   Not so much.

I've gotten older.....  my eyes don't work so good anymore... But I've hunted muzzy for 40+ years and would like to for a few more.

You can be against the rules without twisting what people are saying.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on January 02, 2021, 11:38:47 AM
Ok, no scope for deer and elk. Let's have a year round season for bears and cougars with non-illuminated scopes on muzzleloaders. After a few years they can evaluate how much more lethal the scope is.

 :chuckle:

Open spring bear with muzzy and scope? That would be awesome and super productive. Clearly more productive then the no year around season we have now.. :chuckle:
I'm ok with that.
Give me a reason to buy a muzzleloader.
See how that works ,if you think your getting advantage ,I will be next in line to receive said advantage.
Same goes with deer and elk.
I've been looking at muzzleloader/archery Alot the past few years .Cause I spent most of modern guided my son and other family members.Which makes it hard for myself to hunt. Don't get me wrong I very much enjoy time spent with family,but if I choose another season it will just be more time in woods.
I will be holding off on choosing which season I'm hunting for deer and elk.Intell these rule changes have gone through and the reg book before permits ECT.
But see how that works just talking online has caused me to reconsider what season I'm hunting. :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 02, 2021, 12:13:22 PM
I'm assuming Alot of muzzleloader scopes have drop reticle in them .So it's not just advantage of seeing better.But also shooting further. :dunno:
C'mon don't lie now ,it's not all about seeing better.

Exactly

Do either of you know of a single 1X scope with a drop reticle, or are you just "assuming'?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 02, 2021, 12:24:53 PM
I'm assuming Alot of muzzleloader scopes have drop reticle in them .So it's not just advantage of seeing better.But also shooting further. :dunno:
C'mon don't lie now ,it's not all about seeing better.

Exactly

Do either of you know of a single 1X scope with a drop reticle, or are you just "assuming'?
I think I've seen them for crossbows.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on January 02, 2021, 12:41:10 PM
I'm assuming Alot of muzzleloader scopes have drop reticle in them .So it's not just advantage of seeing better.But also shooting further. :dunno:
C'mon don't lie now ,it's not all about seeing better.

Exactly

Do either of you know of a single 1X scope with a drop reticle, or are you just "assuming'?
All I'm going say is I hope all the proposal go through.
I'm going full auto pellet gun for grouse.
Hehehehehe........... :chuckle:
 :mgun:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 02, 2021, 01:01:54 PM
When utah had a 1x limit on muzzy scopes there were a few options. Hopefully the lack of scopes on the current market makes wdfw keep status quo.

A 1x scope with dials would most definitely increase effective range of a muzzle loader.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Magnum_Willys on January 02, 2021, 01:57:24 PM
Would a 1x-4x with the zoom ring duct taped over be legal?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on January 02, 2021, 02:15:43 PM
Would a 1x-4x with the zoom ring duct taped over be legal?

Just file the -4x off.    :peep:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 02, 2021, 02:24:39 PM
Would a 1x-4x with the zoom ring duct taped over be legal?
Since the intent is to make it easier to see, why limit magnification at all? People can see better with 4x than 1x.   ;)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on January 02, 2021, 03:18:38 PM
Little redneck ingenuity just take a 1-4 and jb weld it stuck at 1x :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 02, 2021, 03:32:57 PM
My variables already self identify as fixed powers.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 02, 2021, 03:35:38 PM
My variables already self identify as fixed powers.

lol. :yeah:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 02, 2021, 03:55:25 PM
Oy veh.... 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Wizekrakr on January 02, 2021, 05:26:27 PM
I only know of 3 makes of 1x scopes in a traditional scope style.   Weaver made the 1x20mm in their Kaspa series and it has a duplex reticle.  TC made the Hawken Hunter in a 1x32mm and it has the duplex reticle.  Nikon once made the Buckmaster series in a 1x and I doubt it had anything resembling a BDC reticle.  So you BDC wishers can put that to rest. I happen to have in my shop one of the Weaver 1x and one of the TC 1x scopes.  Hence the real reason I doubt there will be a flocking of outsiders to the muzzy ranks. You are gonna have to be pretty creative with internet searches to come up with one.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 02, 2021, 06:35:01 PM
I only know of 3 makes of 1x scopes in a traditional scope style.   Weaver made the 1x20mm in their Kaspa series and it has a duplex reticle.  TC made the Hawken Hunter in a 1x32mm and it has the duplex reticle.  Nikon once made the Buckmaster series in a 1x and I doubt it had anything resembling a BDC reticle.  So you BDC wishers can put that to rest. I happen to have in my shop one of the Weaver 1x and one of the TC 1x scopes.  Hence the real reason I doubt there will be a flocking of outsiders to the muzzy ranks. You are gonna have to be pretty creative with internet searches to come up with one.

I believe as soon as its passed or maybe they all ready are but companyís will make a good scope with drop reticle to fill the need. But ya maybe any 1x+ welded in place would be legal. But thereís no doubt more people would make the switch with accuracy being so much easier to achieve.

Iím just upset because I finally got and installed my new target peeps..  :'(
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Reidus on January 02, 2021, 07:14:26 PM
Why not just allow rifles?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Wizekrakr on January 02, 2021, 08:11:10 PM
That would be a fun fly on the wall moment. "But officer, can't you see I JB welded the power ring in the 1x position?"
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on January 02, 2021, 08:12:31 PM
Why not just allow rifles?


You know cause they claim there eye sight ,  the range ,and blah blah blah thatís exactly what they want without coming out and saying it .
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 02, 2021, 08:12:47 PM
I only know of 3 makes of 1x scopes in a traditional scope style.   Weaver made the 1x20mm in their Kaspa series and it has a duplex reticle.  TC made the Hawken Hunter in a 1x32mm and it has the duplex reticle.  Nikon once made the Buckmaster series in a 1x and I doubt it had anything resembling a BDC reticle.  So you BDC wishers can put that to rest. I happen to have in my shop one of the Weaver 1x and one of the TC 1x scopes.  Hence the real reason I doubt there will be a flocking of outsiders to the muzzy ranks. You are gonna have to be pretty creative with internet searches to come up with one.
I know vortex used to make their 1-4 pst scope as a fixed 1x on a custom basis. It had an moa reticle as well as tirrets to compensate for range. There were actually quite a few options for fixed 1x scopes when utah had that restriction on muzzys.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 02, 2021, 08:17:01 PM
Why not just allow rifles?


You know cause they claim there eye sight ,  the range ,and blah blah blah thatís exactly what they want without coming out and saying it .

I really dislike the idea of ones eyesight as the reasoning for allowing scopes. Tjere comes a time that we all eventually wont be able to do the things we love, and thats part of it.

Heck i am not very old and my eyes have a tough time with open and peep sights. So i drastically reduce my effective range. For me personally, a muzzy is a sub 100 yard thing. But give me a 1x scope and i could stretch that much, much farther. I am very against any scopes on muzzys.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on January 02, 2021, 08:20:58 PM
Why not just allow rifles?


You know cause they claim there eye sight ,  the range ,and blah blah blah thatís exactly what they want without coming out and saying it .

I really dislike the idea of ones eyesight as the reasoning for allowing scopes. Tjere comes a time that we all eventually wont be able to do the things we love, and thats part of it.

Heck i am not very old and my eyes have a tough time with open and peep sights. So i drastically reduce my effective range. For me personally, a muzzy is a sub 100 yard thing. But give me a 1x scope and i could stretch that much, much farther. I am very against any scopes on muzzys.

Thatís exactly it whether we wanna admit it or not eventually  we wonít be able to do what we wanna the same way as when we were young if they really want the scope switch to modern , heck one of the guys in my deer camp is 79 and is having to switch to an offset scope for his rifle and still has to be very close .  Muzzleloader I know why my limits are and some of the guys in our group are much less it will  change over time same for all of us
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: kentrek on January 02, 2021, 08:41:30 PM
"Hey Dad , what was it like to hunt branched bulls every year in Washington?"
 
 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on January 02, 2021, 08:49:58 PM
I do hope if they do allow scopes they just allow all scopes ,it just makes it harder for enforcement if they just allow 1x .
Over the course of a few years most guys will just throw any old scope on there anyway.Besides we will have the same discussion 3 years from now ,so go big or go home I say.
Just give muzzleloader what they want and be done with it.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on January 02, 2021, 08:53:12 PM
I do hope if they do allow scopes they just allow all scopes ,it just makes it harder for enforcement if they just allow 1x .
Over the course of a few years most guys will just throw any old scope on there anyway.Besides we will have the same discussion 3 years from now ,so go big or go home I say.
Just give muzzleloader what they want and be done with it.

Doesnít look like a lot of us want it , so what ya were trying to say is give the guys who are about finished there scopes
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Wizekrakr on January 02, 2021, 09:12:38 PM
Why not just allow rifles?


You know cause they claim there eye sight ,  the range ,and blah blah blah thatís exactly what they want without coming out and saying it .

I really dislike the idea of ones eyesight as the reasoning for allowing scopes. Tjere comes a time that we all eventually wont be able to do the things we love, and thats part of it.

Heck i am not very old and my eyes have a tough time with open and peep sights. So i drastically reduce my effective range. For me personally, a muzzy is a sub 100 yard thing. But give me a 1x scope and i could stretch that much, much farther. I am very against any scopes on muzzys.

The reality!! Amen.  I agree, I can't see my damn sights anymore and I am just too stubborn to give up my love of muzzle loader hunting.  I have 2 1x scopes in my shop that I could put on my rifles and keep going a couple more years.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: pd on January 02, 2021, 09:30:17 PM
I will play Satan's Defender on this one. 

As far as I understand it, a fixed 1x riflescope adds no advantage over iron sights, in that there is no magnification (by definition).  Sure, almost all of us are now accustomed to reticles on riflescopes, and that would make it easier to fix on a target.  But isn't this the same argument against fibre optic sights??

The F&W Commission did a good thing a few years ago when they allowed the use of lighted nocks for archery.  I see this issue as an extension of that same line of thinking--the proposed equipment adds no explicit advantage, and, therefore, there is no reason to oppose it.

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 02, 2021, 09:34:32 PM
That would be a fun fly on the wall moment. "But officer, can't you see I JB welded the power ring in the 1x position?"

Sure why not? Shotguns are capable of holding 5 shells but we put a stick in the tube to reduce it to 3. I donít see any practical difference.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 02, 2021, 09:42:39 PM
I will play Satan's Defender on this one. 

As far as I understand it, a fixed 1x riflescope adds no advantage over iron sights, in that there is no magnification (by definition).  Sure, almost all of us are now accustomed to reticles on riflescopes, and that would make it easier to fix on a target.  But isn't this the same argument against fibre optic sights??

The F&W Commission did a good thing a few years ago when they allowed the use of lighted nocks for archery.  I see this issue as an extension of that same line of thinking--the proposed equipment adds no explicit advantage, and, therefore, there is no reason to oppose it.

But the 1x scope does create a massive advantage. A range advantage. Of course so do peep sights and front cross hairs. But to a lesser degree.

Lighted knocks  do not aid in killing an animal. It only aids in the recovery of an animal after the deed is done. Thus probably resulting in LESS killed animals. A scope on a muzzy would increase the lethality of muzzy hunting. Maybe more wounded game due to longer shots being taken? They still wonít bleed and will get lost.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: emac on January 02, 2021, 09:44:46 PM
For all you that wanna put a scope on a muzzy and hunt I am pretty sure you can do it during modern deer and elk season, spring bear, fall bear and cougar season.  So if you wanna use a muzzy with scope just do it during one of those seasons.  Leave muzzy the way it is.  I wish they wouldn't have went to 209 either.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on January 02, 2021, 10:01:57 PM
That would be a fun fly on the wall moment. "But officer, can't you see I JB welded the power ring in the 1x position?"

Sure why not? Shotguns are capable of holding 5 shells but we put a stick in the tube to reduce it to 3. I donít see any practical difference.

Exactly my redneck thoughts!! Heck I would tack weld it if it wouldnít melt the tube lol if she donít turn then it should be good to go.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 02, 2021, 10:27:00 PM
Have I mentioned that I hope it passes?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bunny Thumper on January 03, 2021, 08:33:19 AM
Keep primitive seasons primitive! Weíve already allowed to much technology in our primitive seasons. If you want to hunt with a scope buy a modern firearm tag. My eyes  donít work like they used to either but I donít expect anyone to change the rules for me and I do hunt archery and muzzle loader.
While weíre on the subject, letís outlaw removable scope mounts on muzzle loaders during primitive seasons. There are lots of people with removable scope mounts on their muzzle loaders and a scope in their pack for when no oneís looking.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Russ McDonald on January 03, 2021, 09:30:07 AM
Keep primitive seasons primitive! Weíve already allowed to much technology in our primitive seasons. If you want to hunt with a scope buy a modern firearm tag. My eyes  donít work like they used to either but I donít expect anyone to change the rules for me and I do hunt archery and muzzle loader.
While weíre on the subject, letís outlaw removable scope mounts on muzzle loaders during primitive seasons. There are lots of people with removable scope mounts on their muzzle loaders and a scope in their pack for when no oneís looking.
This is just my opionion but if your talking primitive fixed power and telescoping scopes have been on muzzle loaders since the civil war.
https://riflescopescenter-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/riflescopescenter.com/history-of-rifle-scopes-and-their-use-by-sharpshooters/amp/?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a6&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#amp_ct=1609694902211&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16096945125630&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Friflescopescenter.com%2Fhistory-of-rifle-scopes-and-their-use-by-sharpshooters%2F
I am pretty sure after the war they were wildly used for hunting.  Just throwing that out there.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Stein on January 03, 2021, 10:02:12 AM
That would be a fun fly on the wall moment. "But officer, can't you see I JB welded the power ring in the 1x position?"

Sure why not? Shotguns are capable of holding 5 shells but we put a stick in the tube to reduce it to 3. I donít see any practical difference.

Exactly my redneck thoughts!! Heck I would tack weld it if it wouldnít melt the tube lol if she donít turn then it should be good to go.

Practically, it would be a 1 power, but it's still a 3 power scope.  The shotgun rule is written to specifically allow plugs where this one is specifically written to only allow 1 power scopes.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on January 03, 2021, 10:06:56 AM
My eyes have been bad for years.  I continue to find it harder to focus with open sights.  Tremors get worse and I can't hold steady without a rest.  Stopped climbing the highest mountains and crossing the steepest and deepest canyons that I have in the past.   I'll adapt and keep hunting in WA.  Changing a few rules to be more in line with many other states, I don't have an issue with.  But I won't settle for the rocking chair and memories.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 03, 2021, 10:15:17 AM
That would be a fun fly on the wall moment. "But officer, can't you see I JB welded the power ring in the 1x position?"

Sure why not? Shotguns are capable of holding 5 shells but we put a stick in the tube to reduce it to 3. I donít see any practical difference.

Exactly my redneck thoughts!! Heck I would tack weld it if it wouldnít melt the tube lol if she donít turn then it should be good to go.

Practically, it would be a 1 power, but it's still a 3 power scope.  The shotgun rule is written to specifically allow plugs where this one is specifically written to only allow 1 power scopes.
I don't see the difference.

"(2) It is unlawful to hunt game birds with a shotgun capable of holding more than three shells."
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 03, 2021, 10:24:26 AM
That would be a fun fly on the wall moment. "But officer, can't you see I JB welded the power ring in the 1x position?"

Itís not a 3x scope if itís not capable of 3x. The writing etched onto the outside of the tube doesnít make it something itís not. Besides you can scrape that off.

Sure why not? Shotguns are capable of holding 5 shells but we put a stick in the tube to reduce it to 3. I donít see any practical difference.

Exactly my redneck thoughts!! Heck I would tack weld it if it wouldnít melt the tube lol if she donít turn then it should be good to go.

Practically, it would be a 1 power, but it's still a 3 power scope.  The shotgun rule is written to specifically allow plugs where this one is specifically written to only allow 1 power scopes.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on January 03, 2021, 11:03:11 AM
That would be a fun fly on the wall moment. "But officer, can't you see I JB welded the power ring in the 1x position?"

Sure why not? Shotguns are capable of holding 5 shells but we put a stick in the tube to reduce it to 3. I donít see any practical difference.

Exactly my redneck thoughts!! Heck I would tack weld it if it wouldnít melt the tube lol if she donít turn then it should be good to go.

Practically, it would be a 1 power, but it's still a 3 power scope.  The shotgun rule is written to specifically allow plugs where this one is specifically written to only allow 1 power scopes.
I don't see the difference.

"(2) It is unlawful to hunt game birds with a shotgun capable of holding more than three shells."

Exactly the guns we hunt with are capable of holding more shells. The plug added to the gun is what makes it legal and the limiting factor. The same thing for the scope the scope is capable of more zoom but when locked it place. It now has a limiting factor and is no longer able to zoom. So itís a fixed 1x. Same thing really. Both would be illegal without the limiting factor.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: GASoline71 on January 03, 2021, 01:08:45 PM
"Hey Dad , what was it like to hunt branched bulls every year in Washington?"
 
 :chuckle:

Just like it was prior to 1994... ;)

Gary
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: boneaddict on January 03, 2021, 01:36:05 PM
Smh
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Reidus on January 03, 2021, 01:42:58 PM
Do you really want people taking out bulls with muzzleloader at 500yds?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 03, 2021, 07:36:49 PM
When will they vote on this proposal?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Wizekrakr on January 03, 2021, 07:49:35 PM
According to the proposed 2021-2023 seasons and regs changes listed on the WDFW website they are meeting in March IOT get everything announced in April for release of the new hunting regs pamphlet.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 03, 2021, 07:51:05 PM
According to the proposed 2021-2023 seasons and regs changes listed on the WDFW website they are meeting in March IOT get everything announced in April for release of the new hunting regs pamphlet.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mr Mykiss on January 03, 2021, 09:40:31 PM
According to the proposed 2021-2023 seasons and regs changes listed on the WDFW website they are meeting in March IOT get everything announced in April for release of the new hunting regs pamphlet.
Are those the regs that allow one bull tag for the blues and one for the cascades?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mr Mykiss on January 03, 2021, 09:44:17 PM
Where the heck is Sabotloader on this??!! I say we just let him decide.

**Unless I disagree, in which case I shall revolt against him!!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 03, 2021, 10:40:29 PM
Where the heck is Sabotloader on this??!! I say we just let him decide.

**Unless I disagree, in which case I shall revolt against him!!
I'm wondering also. My guess is that he can shoot as well or better already with the sights he has.
@Sabotloader
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bigshooter on January 03, 2021, 11:05:57 PM
More elk will get killed more people will switch to a muzzleloader.  Something people complained about 10 years ago when they opened up most of western Washington to early muzzy season.  And all we have seen is the number of hunters going down every year.  The sport will die without more people starting to hunt.  If a 1x scope attracts a few more hunters that's a good thing.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Sabotloader on January 04, 2021, 05:58:49 AM
Where the heck is Sabotloader on this??!! I say we just let him decide.

**Unless I disagree, in which case I shall revolt against him!!
I'm wondering also. My guess is that he can shoot as well or better already with the sights he has.
@Sabotloader

I really have held off adding to this thread as I live and hunt in Idaho so my thoughts on Washington regulations really carry no weight.

I would suggest to you our regulations here in Idaho are really archaic as compared to Washington but if we were modernize our rules, I really would not vote for scopes, unless there were a medical reason.  And even then there are to many people that might take advantage of that ruling. 

Straight 1X scopes are not a popular item on the market - lots of 1x5 and on up but straight 1x only are not abundant.

I am 76 wear glasses or contacts and really see no real advantage to 1x scope for myself at this time.

So basically those are my thoughts which again are not valid for Washington residents.

mike
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bucks2Ducks on January 04, 2021, 07:31:38 AM
More elk will get killed more people will switch to a muzzleloader.  Something people complained about 10 years ago when they opened up most of western Washington to early muzzy season.  And all we have seen is the number of hunters going down every year.  The sport will die without more people starting to hunt.  If a 1x scope attracts a few more hunters that's a good thing.
You're right, more elk will get killed. And in the areas I've hunted Rosies the Muzzy guys already have far away the highest success rate, and that is with an only 6 day season... If they add scopes are they gonna make it a 3 day season? Or maybe not have the season in the post rut?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JakeLand on January 04, 2021, 08:14:19 AM
No scopes period thatís my  :twocents: sorry for the guys with aging or just bad eye sight but there needs to be a stopping point or limitation to muzzleloaders and I think having a sealed breach and 209ís should be the end
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mr Mykiss on January 04, 2021, 08:16:53 AM
There you have it. Sabotloader says no scopes. Sack up, rifle hunt or go 100% draw for deer...you can't have it EVERY SINGLE WAY.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 04, 2021, 08:29:58 AM
"There are no solutions, only tradeoffs..." looks like muzzleloader seasons will need a trimming once again. Part of the problem is them calling it a "muzzleoader season", if it were "primitive firearm" then it wouldn't have been so easily *censored*ized by all the technology designed for small Eastern farms and MZ/shotgun seasons.

I'm currently blessed with impeccable eyesight and I hope when that fades, I can bow out gracefully without demanding a rule change. Same for archery, eventually I'll hang it up and not  :'( for a crossbow season.

A 1x scope in the hands of an average shooter could double or triple the perceived effective range of a muzzleloaded rifle.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 04, 2021, 08:35:28 AM
I've not been around forever but the days in the MZ seasons before multi-season, 209s etc. were some good days.

One final thought, the legalization of equipment to boost hunter recruitment is a platitude at this point, particularly among niche seasons like MZ and archery.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 04, 2021, 08:39:06 AM

A 1x scope in the hands of an average shooter could double or triple the perceived effective range of a muzzleloaded rifle.

Easy enought to prove. I'll work on that theory this spring.

First I'll have to excel to average.  lol
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 04, 2021, 08:41:57 AM
Good luck.  :tup:

That bullet is deadly a LOT farther than we can effectively see through iron sights.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Reidus on January 04, 2021, 08:54:49 AM
Good luck.  :tup:

That bullet is deadly a LOT farther than we can effectively see through iron sights.

 :yeah:

With the latest muzzleloaders and modern primers you can shoot a high bc (high for muzzleloader bullets) 300gr .45 cal bullet at over 2400fps with easily sub moa accuracy. 300 win mag energy at the muzzle. A 1x scope that you could accurately dial at longer ranges would be deadly.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 04, 2021, 09:00:23 AM
"There are no solutions, only tradeoffs..." looks like muzzleloader seasons will need a trimming once again. Part of the problem is them calling it a "muzzleoader season", if it were "primitive firearm" then it wouldn't have been so easily *censored*ized by all the technology designed for small Eastern farms and MZ/shotgun seasons.

I'm currently blessed with impeccable eyesight and I hope when that fades, I can bow out gracefully without demanding a rule change. Same for archery, eventually I'll hang it up and not  :'( for a crossbow season.

A 1x scope in the hands of an average shooter could double or triple the perceived effective range of a muzzleloaded rifle.
:yeah:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on January 04, 2021, 09:54:00 AM
No scopes period thatís my  :twocents: sorry for the guys with aging or just bad eye sight but there needs to be a stopping point or limitation to muzzleloaders and I think having a sealed breach and 209ís should be the end


 Perzactly !! Already a great edge with the sealed breach and 209 now
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 04, 2021, 10:02:34 AM
Good luck.  :tup:

That bullet is deadly a LOT farther than we can effectively see through iron sights.

 :yeah:

With the latest muzzleloaders and modern primers you can shoot a high bc (high for muzzleloader bullets) 300gr .45 cal bullet at over 2400fps with easily sub moa accuracy.

Easily sub MOA? Funny how I never see many sub MOA guys with modern rifles. A lot of talk.. but little doing at the range. Field conditions with a muzzleloader? Not happening often. :twocents:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 04, 2021, 11:24:09 AM
Yeah probably not easily in most cases but you certainly don't need sub-MOA to kill deer and elk at 200-300 yards. Point is that field conditions are easier to shoot farther and more accurately with a scope of any power.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: huntingfool7 on January 04, 2021, 12:51:57 PM
No scopes period thatís my  :twocents: sorry for the guys with aging or just bad eye sight but there needs to be a stopping point or limitation to muzzleloaders and I think having a sealed breach and 209ís should be the end

I say- take away sealed breaches, sabots and 209's.  Everyone should be packing a Hawken...Put a 1x scope on it if you like.  8)  The glassware isn't where you got away from tradition!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 04, 2021, 01:02:05 PM
I was against all those changes but none are as pertinent as the glass issue since I already lost the other battles.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: callturner on January 04, 2021, 01:24:09 PM
I say take anything you can get. Not that often the WDFW gives rather than takes. And while your at it make BPCR legal also.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 04, 2021, 01:37:18 PM
I say take anything you can get. Not that often the WDFW gives rather than takes. And while your at it make BPCR legal also.

Itís not a positive change if it leads to shorter seasons or more restrictions elsewhere for the muzzy community.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dirty Mike on January 04, 2021, 01:40:37 PM
I say take anything you can get. Not that often the WDFW gives rather than takes. And while your at it make BPCR legal also.

Itís not a positive change if it leads to shorter seasons or more restrictions elsewhere for the muzzy community.

I agree this only leads to shorter season other restrictions. At what point do they just combine modern and muzzy seasons?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Stein on January 04, 2021, 02:01:21 PM
I say take anything you can get. Not that often the WDFW gives rather than takes. And while your at it make BPCR legal also.

Itís not a positive change if it leads to shorter seasons or more restrictions elsewhere for the muzzy community.

I agree this only leads to shorter season other restrictions. At what point do they just combine modern and muzzy seasons?

Probably not going to happen, loss of revenue from special permit applications.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 04, 2021, 07:27:00 PM
I guess Archery and rifle are the only things that can have advancement of technology  :dunno: every time muzzy has had any everyone gets their panties in a bunch.

For the record Iím not advocating for the rule change Iím gonna keep doing the same thing Ive been doing for 20 years. But itís laughable to think this is whatís going to be the demise of the herds, it wasnít the demise when archery allowed fiber optics and lighted knocks and they will survive 1x scopes too.

As far as people flocking to muzzy? I donít think so, thereís not much of an attraction to a 6 day season that doesnít even encompass two full weekends ... muzzy in Wa has the crappiest seasons. Muzzy hunters in Wa have been dwindling every year if guys want to try the short season and clean their gun more In one day then they have in their lifetime I say let them.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: kentrek on January 04, 2021, 07:47:49 PM
Lol yeah early October is just a terrible time to be chasing elk with 300 yard weapon  :chuckle:

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 04, 2021, 08:13:13 PM
Lol yeah early October is just a terrible time to be chasing elk with 300 yard weapon  :chuckle:

I didnít say the time was terrible I said itís a crappy short season! And whoís shooting 300yards? No one with open sight 1x where do you guys get your info???  ... let me guess ? you archery hunt for A month and like the first week of Oct for chasing bulls? Well try a 6 day season and then tell me again ďitís ok cause you got the first week of Oct!Ē   :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: kentrek on January 04, 2021, 08:31:07 PM
Lol why is it fish and game only gives you 6 days ?? Gosh it makes no sense....they must be picking on you guys  :chuckle:

**heavy sarcasm
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on January 04, 2021, 08:41:12 PM
Lol yeah early October is just a terrible time to be chasing elk with 300 yard weapon  :chuckle:
Lol why is it fish and game only gives you 6 days ?? Gosh it makes no sense....they must be picking on you guys  :chuckle:

**heavy sarcasm
Totally Agree
Muzzy Seasons are the worst.
That must be why nobody does them.
Hehehehe :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on January 04, 2021, 08:44:46 PM
I guess Archery and rifle are the only things that can have advancement of technology  :dunno: every time muzzy has had any everyone gets their panties in a bunch.

For the record Iím not advocating for the rule change Iím gonna keep doing the same thing Ive been doing for 20 years. But itís laughable to think this is whatís going to be the demise of the herds, it wasnít the demise when archery allowed fiber optics and lighted knocks and they will survive 1x scopes too.

As far as people flocking to muzzy? I donít think so, thereís not much of an attraction to a 6 day season that doesnít even encompass two full weekends ... muzzy in Wa has the crappiest seasons. Muzzy hunters in Wa have been dwindling every year if guys want to try the short season and clean their gun more In one day then they have in their lifetime I say let them.  :twocents:

Incorrect
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 04, 2021, 08:51:45 PM
Lol why is it fish and game only gives you 6 days ?? Gosh it makes no sense....they must be picking on you guys  :chuckle:

**heavy sarcasm

Thatís the early season, most of the count of ďDaysĒ for the User group takes place late on the east side in areas with no elk or all private ground. Be my guest go take a look for yourself.

Iíll tell you what Iíll trade you your archery days for my muzzy days if you think itís so great? Iíd rather hunt for 3 weeks in sept than the first Six Days in oct?  :chuckle: but we hunt it cause itís what they give us and because we love hunting with muzzleloaders.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 04, 2021, 09:01:25 PM
In 2020 the muzzleloader elk season was seven days. ;)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bobdog86 on January 04, 2021, 09:19:38 PM
Eastern Washington Muzzy, has a great early and a great late season for deer..be prepared to make concessions. Because it will happen 100%
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 04, 2021, 09:23:17 PM
In 2020 the muzzleloader elk season was seven days. ;)
In 2020 the muzzleloader elk season was seven days. ;)
.

Your right technically it was Sat the 3rd thru Fri the 9th ... still the shortest elk season of all methods.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: kentrek on January 04, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
You can have my archery days....with a bow lol

I get it...the hunting in wa isn't the best...it doesn't score well on Instagram and some years are a total let down...but the fact is not everyone can kill an elk.....This state is banking on you NOT killing an elk...and what can the state do to keep folks from killing elk ?  Less technology?? Less days in the field?? Less tags available?? They only have so many options to work with and none of them will ideal..

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 04, 2021, 09:36:38 PM
In 2020 the muzzleloader elk season was seven days. ;)
In 2020 the muzzleloader elk season was seven days. ;)
.

Your right technically it was Sat the 3rd thru Fri the 9th ... still the shortest elk season of all methods.
I think it is limited significantly by trying to schedule all the different seasons across the board to not interfere with each other.  Exception being muzzy, sometimes the deer and elk seasons overlap. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 04, 2021, 09:44:55 PM
You can have my archery days....with a bow lol

I get it...the hunting in wa isn't the best...it doesn't score well on Instagram and some years are a total let down...but the fact is not everyone can kill an elk.....This state is banking on you NOT killing an elk...and what can the state do to keep folks from killing elk ?  Less technology?? Less days in the field?? Less tags available?? They only have so many options to work with and none of them will ideal..

 :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 05, 2021, 06:39:36 AM
In 2020 the muzzleloader elk season was seven days. ;)
In 2020 the muzzleloader elk season was seven days. ;)
.

Your right technically it was Sat the 3rd thru Fri the 9th ... still the shortest elk season of all methods.

You donít need a long season when you can chase bugling bulls with a gun in early October.. for elk in Washington muzzy gets by far the best seasons. Not just a great early season but also a great late season. The reason people donít do it as much IMO is because generally you know your limited on range due to open sights. But with a scope? You might as well be carrying a rifle on the west side.

Also fiber optic pins and lighted knocks donít increase your archery range a easy 3 times.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 05, 2021, 09:05:18 AM
1x scope is not going to increase effectiveness an easy 3 times.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 05, 2021, 09:12:53 AM
1x scope is not going to increase effectiveness an easy 3 times.
Maybe not for range, but depending on brightness and field of view, I could see how it could really boost effectiveness in heavy brush or low light conditions.
Muzzleloader hunters will have to get used to the idea of wearing orange.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 05, 2021, 09:22:35 AM
1x scope is not going to increase effectiveness an easy 3 times.

Muzzleloader hunters will have to get used to the idea of wearing orange.

With the new wildlife commission we will be wearing pink with rainbow hats. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Sabotloader on January 05, 2021, 10:02:33 AM
This little experiment really doesn't mean much but...

So this morning I climb up and retrieved an old 1.5 variable scope that I had stored.  My intentions were to match/compare it to the normal peep and hooded fire sight that normally hunt with when looking at a target 50 yards away.

With my current sight setup, a Williams peep and fire sight front bead with hood.

(https://i.postimg.cc/d3xRd3r3/Williams_FP_Peep_Sight.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fbnKBVF0/Williams_Front_Sight.jpg)

Then I switched to the 1.5 scope to compare that view.  While the scope really did not appear to add any magnification to the door knob I was sighting on - it really did make everything look clearer and more crisp.

Plus one other advantage of the scope was the reticule it added a lot to the effectiveness of the scope. It has a ballistic reticule for ranges.  This particular scope could be a big advantage.

The next problem is even finding a fixed 1X scope on the market today.  I have done some searching and only finding variable 1x scopes.


Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 05, 2021, 10:05:46 AM
Like I said before Iím not advocating for it but it wonít bother me if they pass it. But where do you all get that this will ďturn a muzzy into a rifleĒ or Ēshoot three times farther???   :dunno:

You guys realize the 1x is only going to let the shooter see the front sight on the end of the gun better? Itís not going to increase down range effectiveness. And if the shooter sees the front sight better you can still only shoot so far.

For those that think all of the sudden geezers and newbies are going to be able To shoot 300 yards You clearly havenít shot a muzzleloader. At 200 yards with open sights  weather you can see the front sight or not it covers an entire deer and most all of the vitals of an elk! A 1x isnít going to magnify the animal at that distance itís only going to give the shooter a clear sight to try and line up. When the pin covers an entire vital or most of an animal itís a difficult shot to make And why even younger guys that can see the sight donít attempt shots beyond 120-130 and the majority wonít even shoot if itís over 100.

When jacketed bullets were approved everyone cried the same tune ... ďThis will ruin the herds cause guys will now take 300 yard shots!!!Ē

Well people quickly realized that if the pin covers the animal And you canít find the vitals you canít shoot 300 yards.  Of coarse some proficient shooters will increase their range but in general terms 90% wonít be able to hit a paper plate at 300 and soon realize it isnít going to magically turn them into a competition shooter.

Now tell ma again That itís not like the fiber optic sight on a bow? I remember all the archers making that same plea and same argument when those against it accused them it would increase their range. You all said it will only make it easier to line up an ethical shot!!!

Now the muzzy guys want the same courtesy and you all cry NO!!!   :dunno:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 05, 2021, 10:11:29 AM
Oh might I also add that all you young guys ARE going to get old Too, and $h!ts gonna get fuzzy for you When you try and line up an animal someday.  ;)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 05, 2021, 10:13:54 AM
Like I said before Iím not advocating for it but it wonít bother me if they pass it. But where do you all get that this will ďturn a muzzy into a rifleĒ or ďshoot 3 times fartherĒ ???
You guys realize the 1x is only going to let the shooter see the front sight on the end of the gun better? Itís not going to increase down range effectiveness. And if the shooter sees the front sight better you can still only shoot so far.

For those that think all of the sudden geezers and newbies are going to be able To shoot 300 yards You clearly havenít shot a muzzleloader. At 200 yards with open sights  weather you can see the front sight or not it covers an entire deer and most all of the vitals of an elk! A 1x isnít going to magnify the animal at that distance itís only going to give the shooter a clear sight to try and line up. When the pin covers an entire vital or most of an animal itís a difficult shot to make And why even younger guys that can see the sight donít attempt shots beyond 120-130 and the majority wonít even shoot if itís over 100.

When jacketed bullets were approved everyone cried the same tune ... ďThis will ruin the herds cause guys will now take 300 yard shots!!!Ē

Well people quickly realized that if the pin covers the animal And you canít find the vitals you canít shoot 300 yards.  Of coarse some proficient shooters will increase their range but in general terms 90% wonít be able to hit a paper plate at 300 and soon realize it isnít going to magically turn them into a competition shooter.

Now tell ma again That itís not like the fiber optic sight on a bow? I remember all the archers making that same plea and same argument when those against it accused them it would increase their range. You all said it will only make it easier to line up an ethical shot!!!

Now the muzzy guys want the same courtesy and you all cry NO!!!   :dunno:
If you have a scope you dont need the front sight. The scope has a reticle.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 05, 2021, 10:20:57 AM
Like I said before Iím not advocating for it but it wonít bother me if they pass it. But where do you all get that this will ďturn a muzzy into a rifleĒ or ďshoot 3 times fartherĒ ???
You guys realize the 1x is only going to let the shooter see the front sight on the end of the gun better? Itís not going to increase down range effectiveness. And if the shooter sees the front sight better you can still only shoot so far.

For those that think all of the sudden geezers and newbies are going to be able To shoot 300 yards You clearly havenít shot a muzzleloader. At 200 yards with open sights  weather you can see the front sight or not it covers an entire deer and most all of the vitals of an elk! A 1x isnít going to magnify the animal at that distance itís only going to give the shooter a clear sight to try and line up. When the pin covers an entire vital or most of an animal itís a difficult shot to make And why even younger guys that can see the sight donít attempt shots beyond 120-130 and the majority wonít even shoot if itís over 100.

When jacketed bullets were approved everyone cried the same tune ... ďThis will ruin the herds cause guys will now take 300 yard shots!!!Ē

Well people quickly realized that if the pin covers the animal And you canít find the vitals you canít shoot 300 yards.  Of coarse some proficient shooters will increase their range but in general terms 90% wonít be able to hit a paper plate at 300 and soon realize it isnít going to magically turn them into a competition shooter.

Now tell ma again That itís not like the fiber optic sight on a bow? I remember all the archers making that same plea and same argument when those against it accused them it would increase their range. You all said it will only make it easier to line up an ethical shot!!!

Now the muzzy guys want the same courtesy and you all cry NO!!!   :dunno:
If you have a scope you dont need the front sight. The scope has a reticle.  :dunno:

Then clearly I have it wrong and confused with a halo type sight, Iíve never seen a 1x scope with a reticle my apologies ... I still donít think a 1x reticle is going to do much of anything down at 300 yards  :dunno:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 05, 2021, 10:34:08 AM
Bullblaster I see your point now, but Iíll say I would probably be more in favor of the type I was thinking of like a shotgun halo to view the sight better than anything that will increase the down range capabilities. Sorry for my rant I didnít even know a 1x fixed reticle even existed so my brain went straight to a 1x halo or shotgun type sight window.

If they want a reticle why donít they increase an opportunity for a dedicated season? Maybe for seniors???  Maybe thatís the way to go about This instead of fighting and dividing between user groups  :dunno:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 05, 2021, 10:35:40 AM
Like I said before Iím not advocating for it but it wonít bother me if they pass it. But where do you all get that this will ďturn a muzzy into a rifleĒ or ďshoot 3 times fartherĒ ???
You guys realize the 1x is only going to let the shooter see the front sight on the end of the gun better? Itís not going to increase down range effectiveness. And if the shooter sees the front sight better you can still only shoot so far.

For those that think all of the sudden geezers and newbies are going to be able To shoot 300 yards You clearly havenít shot a muzzleloader. At 200 yards with open sights  weather you can see the front sight or not it covers an entire deer and most all of the vitals of an elk! A 1x isnít going to magnify the animal at that distance itís only going to give the shooter a clear sight to try and line up. When the pin covers an entire vital or most of an animal itís a difficult shot to make And why even younger guys that can see the sight donít attempt shots beyond 120-130 and the majority wonít even shoot if itís over 100.

When jacketed bullets were approved everyone cried the same tune ... ďThis will ruin the herds cause guys will now take 300 yard shots!!!Ē

Well people quickly realized that if the pin covers the animal And you canít find the vitals you canít shoot 300 yards.  Of coarse some proficient shooters will increase their range but in general terms 90% wonít be able to hit a paper plate at 300 and soon realize it isnít going to magically turn them into a competition shooter.

Now tell ma again That itís not like the fiber optic sight on a bow? I remember all the archers making that same plea and same argument when those against it accused them it would increase their range. You all said it will only make it easier to line up an ethical shot!!!

Now the muzzy guys want the same courtesy and you all cry NO!!!   :dunno:
If you have a scope you dont need the front sight. The scope has a reticle.  :dunno:

Then clearly I have it wrong and confused with a halo type sight, Iíve never seen a 1x scope with a reticle my apologies ... I still donít think a 1x reticle is going to do much of anything down at 300 yards  :dunno:
the vortex crossfire 1x scope (i believe it is dicontinued now) had a 2.5 moa crosshair, that is a much finer aiming point than a .070 fiber otpic front sight. A 2.5 moa crosshair would cover 8 inches or less at 300 yards. Again much easier to aim that at a deer shoulder versus a .070 fiber optic. Not to mention aleviating the near/far focus issue. All it would take is learning the scope adjustments to hit at 300 yards from the 100 yard zero. Not difficult at all. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 05, 2021, 10:37:27 AM
Bullblaster I see your point now, but Iíll say I would probably be more in favor of the type I was thinking of like a shotgun halo to view the sight better than anything that will increase the down range capabilities. Sorry for my rant I didnít even know a 1x fixed reticle even existed so my brain went straight to a 1x halo or shotgun type sight window.

If they want a reticle why donít they increase an opportunity for a dedicated season? Maybe for seniors???  Maybe thatís the way to go about This instead of fighting and dividing between user groups  :dunno:
We posted at the same time. I honestly think the major differences at this point and the limitation with muzzys is the sighting system, take that restriction away and it is much closer to a rifles capabilitys.  :twocents:

I admittedly dont know anything about halo sights.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 05, 2021, 10:42:58 AM
Bullblaster I see your point now, but Iíll say I would probably be more in favor of the type I was thinking of like a shotgun halo to view the sight better than anything that will increase the down range capabilities. Sorry for my rant I didnít even know a 1x fixed reticle even existed so my brain went straight to a 1x halo or shotgun type sight window.

If they want a reticle why donít they increase an opportunity for a dedicated season? Maybe for seniors???  Maybe thatís the way to go about This instead of fighting and dividing between user groups  :dunno:
We posted at the same time. I honestly think the major differences at this point and the limitation with muzzys is the sighting system, take that restriction away and it is much closer to a rifles capabilitys.  :twocents:

I admittedly dont know anything about halo sights.

Gotcha  :tup: sorry Iím on page now, Iím really not in total favor of increasing it to be like a rifle. But I can say it sucks getting old and loosing your close up vision. I get tested at work all the time and still have 20-15 distance vision but need readers for anything close up. Maybe the compromise here would be something like I was thinking it was??? That way the old guys can see the front sight again and NOT have a thin reticle that would increase down range effectiveness... what are your thoughts on that?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 05, 2021, 10:46:24 AM
Bullblaster I see your point now, but Iíll say I would probably be more in favor of the type I was thinking of like a shotgun halo to view the sight better than anything that will increase the down range capabilities. Sorry for my rant I didnít even know a 1x fixed reticle even existed so my brain went straight to a 1x halo or shotgun type sight window.

If they want a reticle why donít they increase an opportunity for a dedicated season? Maybe for seniors???  Maybe thatís the way to go about This instead of fighting and dividing between user groups  :dunno:
We posted at the same time. I honestly think the major differences at this point and the limitation with muzzys is the sighting system, take that restriction away and it is much closer to a rifles capabilitys.  :twocents:

I admittedly dont know anything about halo sights.

Gotcha  :tup: sorry Iím on page now, Iím really not in total favor of increasing it to be like a rifle. But I can say it sucks getting old and loosing your close up vision. I get tested at work all the time and still have 20-15 distance vision but need readers for anything close up. Maybe the compromise here would be something like I was thinking it was??? That way the old guys can see the front sight again and NOT have a thin reticle that would increase down range effectiveness... what are your thoughts on that?
Very similar to a verfier lens in an archery peepi think. It helps with the focus on the sight pin and target at the same time. I believe that is on the docket right now as well. I personally dont see any issue with that. It still keeps the open sights.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 05, 2021, 10:58:50 AM
Bullblaster I see your point now, but Iíll say I would probably be more in favor of the type I was thinking of like a shotgun halo to view the sight better than anything that will increase the down range capabilities. Sorry for my rant I didnít even know a 1x fixed reticle even existed so my brain went straight to a 1x halo or shotgun type sight window.

If they want a reticle why donít they increase an opportunity for a dedicated season? Maybe for seniors???  Maybe thatís the way to go about This instead of fighting and dividing between user groups  :dunno:
We posted at the same time. I honestly think the major differences at this point and the limitation with muzzys is the sighting system, take that restriction away and it is much closer to a rifles capabilitys.  :twocents:

I admittedly dont know anything about halo sights.

Gotcha  :tup: sorry Iím on page now, Iím really not in total favor of increasing it to be like a rifle. But I can say it sucks getting old and loosing your close up vision. I get tested at work all the time and still have 20-15 distance vision but need readers for anything close up. Maybe the compromise here would be something like I was thinking it was??? That way the old guys can see the front sight again and NOT have a thin reticle that would increase down range effectiveness... what are your thoughts on that?
Very similar to a verfier lens in an archery peepi think. It helps with the focus on the sight pin and target at the same time. I believe that is on the docket right now as well. I personally dont see any issue with that. It still keeps the open sights.

  :tup:

Well since that was my thinking in the first place Iíd support that type to keep the open sights in place but extend a little help to see them!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: LDennis24 on January 05, 2021, 11:32:56 AM
Why not just use these?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 05, 2021, 12:20:18 PM
Why not just use these?

Another good option we allready have. But still nothing when compared to a scope. One common complaint with the fine front globe site is use in low light situations.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BigTines on January 05, 2021, 01:28:22 PM
I think itís great WDFW wants to allow 1x scopes. Nearly every other state in the country allows magnification scopes so itís about time we move that direction.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mtnwalker on January 05, 2021, 01:42:06 PM
I think itís great WDFW wants to allow 1x scopes. Nearly every other state in the country allows magnification scopes so itís about time we move that direction.

Except California, Colorado, Idaho, Nevada, Oregon, Parts of New Mexico... But Utah and Arizona allow it where you get a bull tag once every 20 years so lets do that!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: LDennis24 on January 05, 2021, 02:10:09 PM
I say we allow crossbows for everyone during bow season too!  Why not?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 05, 2021, 02:46:07 PM
I say we allow pistols in bow season. Rifles in muzzleloader season and leg snares in rifle. After all some guys eye are getting old. With a snare you wouldnít even have to see the animal.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 05, 2021, 02:50:18 PM
I say we allow pistols in bow season. Rifles in muzzleloader season and leg snares in rifle. After all some guys eye are getting old. With a snare you wouldnít even have to see the animal.
How does it go? "If you don't like pistols in now season don't use them."
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BigTines on January 05, 2021, 03:31:50 PM

Exactly. So 44/50 states allow scopes. Like I said, nearly every other state allows them. Thanks for proving my point.

I think itís great WDFW wants to allow 1x scopes. Nearly every other state in the country allows magnification scopes so itís about time we move that direction.

Except California, Colorado, Idaho, Nevada, Oregon, Parts of New Mexico... But Utah and Arizona allow it where you get a bull tag once every 20 years so lets do that!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BreezyBear on January 05, 2021, 03:42:33 PM

Exactly. So 44/50 states allow scopes. Like I said, nearly every other state allows them. Thanks for proving my point.

I think itís great WDFW wants to allow 1x scopes. Nearly every other state in the country allows magnification scopes so itís about time we move that direction.

Except California, Colorado, Idaho, Nevada, Oregon, Parts of New Mexico... But Utah and Arizona allow it where you get a bull tag once every 20 years so lets do that!
Perfect summery for this thread  :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mtnwalker on January 05, 2021, 04:04:19 PM

Exactly. So 44/50 states allow scopes. Like I said, nearly every other state allows them. Thanks for proving my point.

I think itís great WDFW wants to allow 1x scopes. Nearly every other state in the country allows magnification scopes so itís about time we move that direction.

Except California, Colorado, Idaho, Nevada, Oregon, Parts of New Mexico... But Utah and Arizona allow it where you get a bull tag once every 20 years so lets do that!

That's out of the 10-11 states that I consider as being somewhat relevant in the western hunting world, I have no idea how many of the eastern private land dominated, pay-to-play states allow them, nor do I care. I don't find it a coincidence that whenever I think "man I wish hunting in WA was a bit more like (insert state here), that most of those states happen to not allow scopes. I'd rather WA be more like Idaho than Iowa
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 05, 2021, 04:04:35 PM

Exactly. So 44/50 states allow scopes. Like I said, nearly every other state allows them. Thanks for proving my point.

I think itís great WDFW wants to allow 1x scopes. Nearly every other state in the country allows magnification scopes so itís about time we move that direction.

Except California, Colorado, Idaho, Nevada, Oregon, Parts of New Mexico... But Utah and Arizona allow it where you get a bull tag once every 20 years so lets do that!

Nah. As usual comparing states rules is under/misinformed or disingenuous. Cherry picking method of take or seasons without taking into consideration game numbers, hunter numbers, season length, etc. is asinine.

I don't WDFW cares one way or the other but they are certainly influenced by the squeaky wheel who usually lobbies to make things easier for them.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: pd on January 05, 2021, 04:48:51 PM
This thread has gone bonkers.  What a huge button got pushed for the muzzleloader crowd.

If I have to vote, I am in favor of a 1X scope that will allow me to shoot 300 yards.  For the record, even with my 4 - 12x scope on my .30-06, I still can't see that well.  Must be some Swaro glass in that 1X.  Not sure I can afford that.

 :hello:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: idahohuntr on January 05, 2021, 05:12:41 PM

Exactly. So 44/50 states allow scopes. Like I said, nearly every other state allows them. Thanks for proving my point.

I think itís great WDFW wants to allow 1x scopes. Nearly every other state in the country allows magnification scopes so itís about time we move that direction.

Except California, Colorado, Idaho, Nevada, Oregon, Parts of New Mexico... But Utah and Arizona allow it where you get a bull tag once every 20 years so lets do that!

Nah. As usual comparing states rules is under/misinformed or disingenuous. Cherry picking method of take or seasons without taking into consideration game numbers, hunter numbers, season length, etc. is asinine.

I don't WDFW cares one way or the other but they are certainly influenced by the squeaky wheel who usually lobbies to make things easier for them.
I agree...I think wdfw is doing this to show some squeaky wheels where hunters stand on the matter.  If they get 80% public opposition, they can go back to these groups and say, sorry - hunters don't want this change.  I don't think its any desire of wdfw to allow scopes or not allow scopes.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 05, 2021, 05:21:22 PM
This thread has gone bonkers.  What a huge button got pushed for the muzzleloader crowd.

If I have to vote, I am in favor of a 1X scope that will allow me to shoot 300 yards.  For the record, even with my 4 - 12x scope on my .30-06, I still can't see that well.  Must be some Swaro glass in that 1X.  Not sure I can afford that.

 :hello:
Imagine the possibilities with a 4x scope. Lol.  :sry:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on January 05, 2021, 05:36:12 PM
Not that it matters but I have had a few conversations with someone who is apart of these rule changes for wdfw. It sounds like a very large majority of the people are in favor of this. He made it sound like there is a solid possibility of it passing.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mr Mykiss on January 05, 2021, 05:40:11 PM
Oh might I also add that all you young guys ARE going to get old Too, and $h!ts gonna get fuzzy for you When you try and line up an animal someday.  ;)
There will be no animals/hunting in WA when things get fuzzy for me...
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 05, 2021, 05:44:49 PM
Oh might I also add that all you young guys ARE going to get old Too, and $h!ts gonna get fuzzy for you When you try and line up an animal someday.  ;)
There will be no animals/hunting in WA when things get fuzzy for me...


No offense but I hope your wrong  :(
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 05, 2021, 06:03:15 PM
Deja vu, all over again.

https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,210855.0.html (https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,210855.0.html)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: pd on January 05, 2021, 06:13:14 PM
Deja vu, all over again.

https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,210855.0.html (https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,210855.0.html)


Wow.  That thread went to 20 pages.  I guess this issue never got resolved on Hunt Wa!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 05, 2021, 06:23:55 PM
Deja vu, all over again.

https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,210855.0.html (https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,210855.0.html)


Wow.  That thread went to 20 pages.  I guess this issue never got resolved on Hunt Wa!
I think theres moslty only 15 different thread topics on huntwa. Rinse and repeat!  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Wizekrakr on January 05, 2021, 06:39:11 PM

Imagine the possibilities with a 4x scope. Lol.  :sry:
[/quote]

No doubt, if a zero magnification crosshair can turn a 100 yard short range muzzy into a 300 yard killing machine and destroy the Washington elk herd. Just imagine if we could use a 3x9 variable.  We could massacre elk at 1000 yards or more.  Facts are facts: Taking a shot at 300 yards with a muzzy (don't care what bullet and powder load you are using) is a completely unethical shot. Bullet performance at that range will not support an argument to that. And for you guys that think you can shoot sub-moa groups at 100 yards with a zero power 1x scope on a muzzle loader, sounds like a lot of BS to me.  I am sure I am going to hear stories now about somebody that takes 300+ shots or has shot a sub-moa group. Spare me. Doesn't make it an ethical shot and I will never believe that you shoot even 1 moa groups.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mr Mykiss on January 05, 2021, 07:50:04 PM
I waaaaaaaaant moooooree fooorrrr meeeeeee. It should be easier for me itís toooooo haaaaaard :cryriver:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 05, 2021, 07:51:46 PM
A proper weight muzzy bullet from a modern rifle will destroy some serious flesh and bone at 300 yards and MOA isn't required to hit vitals at 300 or even beyond.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 05, 2021, 08:43:32 PM
A 1x scope is not going to turn it into a sniper rifle like some are implying.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 05, 2021, 09:00:34 PM
A 1x scope is not going to turn it into a sniper rifle like some are implying.

Strawman argument. Nobody is saying that.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 06, 2021, 07:19:53 AM

Imagine the possibilities with a 4x scope. Lol.  :sry:

No doubt, if a zero magnification crosshair can turn a 100 yard short range muzzy into a 300 yard killing machine and destroy the Washington elk herd. Just imagine if we could use a 3x9 variable.  We could massacre elk at 1000 yards or more.  Facts are facts: Taking a shot at 300 yards with a muzzy (don't care what bullet and powder load you are using) is a completely unethical shot. Bullet performance at that range will not support an argument to that. And for you guys that think you can shoot sub-moa groups at 100 yards with a zero power 1x scope on a muzzle loader, sounds like a lot of BS to me.  I am sure I am going to hear stories now about somebody that takes 300+ shots or has shot a sub-moa group. Spare me. Doesn't make it an ethical shot and I will never believe that you shoot even 1 moa groups.
[/quote]

I would never take a 300 yard shot with my front fiber optic because I wouldnít be able to see the animal. But if I could clearly see the animal through a scope and add a BDC reticle into the fun? Ya my short range muzzy is now a 300 yard gun. Guys are all ready shooting to 300 with success with the right open sight set ups. People will take longer shots with a scope whether itís ethical or not.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 06, 2021, 07:35:31 AM
Anyone saying 300 is unethical with a scoped muzzy hasn't been paying attention to the advancements in muzzleloaders and components.  A 300gr bullet at 2,400fps is a freight train for a long ways out there and a lot of these factory and custome front staffers are easily capable of sub moa accuracy. You add a reticle into the game and it doubles your range. Ive put my eotec on my muzzy before for fun and its a night and day difference.  A guy can say it doesn't but if they do its glaringly obvious that they haven't shot a scoped muzzleloader or used some of the modern components that are available.

As bullblaster stated, your sights are all that is keeping these weapons "primitive". Take that away and we WILL see lost season opportunities.   If I could snap my fingers right now and go back to pre inlines, less muzzlestuffers, and some of those killer late seasons we used to have I would  :twocents:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 06, 2021, 08:04:09 AM
Anyone saying 300 is unethical with a scoped muzzy hasn't been paying attention to the advancements in muzzleloaders and components.  A 300gr bullet at 2,400fps is a freight train for a long ways out there and a lot of these factory and custome front staffers are easily capable of sub moa accuracy. You add a reticle into the game and it doubles your range. Ive put my eotec on my muzzy before for fun and its a night and day difference.  A guy can say it doesn't but if they do its glaringly obvious that they haven't shot a scoped muzzleloader or used some of the modern components that are available.

As bullblaster stated, your sights are all that is keeping these weapons "primitive". Take that away and we WILL see lost season opportunities.   If I could snap my fingers right now and go back to pre inlines, less muzzlestuffers, and some of those killer late seasons we used to have I would  :twocents:

Well said.  :yeah:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 06, 2021, 08:21:02 AM
And for the record, 2 years ago id put 10 out of 10 on a milk jug at 300 yards if the wind was good. Now I'm blind as bat carrying Costco cheater glasses around in my pocket in denial of needing actual glasses. 150 yards would be my absolute max on an elk. Add in some low light and that would shrink to 100.  I absolutely do not want scopes in muzzleloading. Ill adjust my hunting practices accordingly. Its the same as the wilderness argument. Its a younger man's game to go deep into the backcountry and at some point I won't be able to do it anymore. I certainly do not want roads punched into that country so I can still hunt it for my own selfish gains.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: WSU on January 06, 2021, 09:20:57 AM
I have no doubt that shooting a scope is easier than shooting open sights, and it's not even close.  And killing at 200 or 300 isn't the only issue.  A lot of elk and deer get missed at 100 that would die if we had scopes.  I'm personally against it for all the reasons already given.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: huntingfool7 on January 06, 2021, 09:22:49 AM
Anyone saying 300 is unethical with a scoped muzzy hasn't been paying attention to the advancements in muzzleloaders and components.  A 300gr bullet at 2,400fps is a freight train for a long ways out there and a lot of these factory and custome front staffers are easily capable of sub moa accuracy. You add a reticle into the game and it doubles your range. Ive put my eotec on my muzzy before for fun and its a night and day difference.  A guy can say it doesn't but if they do its glaringly obvious that they haven't shot a scoped muzzleloader or used some of the modern components that are available.

As bullblaster stated, your sights are all that is keeping these weapons "primitive". Take that away and we WILL see lost season opportunities.   If I could snap my fingers right now and go back to pre inlines, less muzzlestuffers, and some of those killer late seasons we used to have I would  :twocents:

I think you are exactly right.  Muzzleloading is no longer primitive or short range.  If going muzzy is no longer a handicap, they should do away with the third bracket and put all of you guys into the modern season.   
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 06, 2021, 09:39:05 AM
Donít worry Karl pretty soon it will get hard to see a reticle in a scope  :o ... thatís  when you realize youíre a geezer!  :chuckle:

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 06, 2021, 09:40:56 AM
Donít worry Karl pretty soon it will get hard to see a reticle in a scope  :o ... thatís  when you realize youíre a geezer!  :chuckle:

Some days i can be counted in that group...  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: OutHouse on January 06, 2021, 10:24:29 AM
I'd prefer no scopes to keep it primitive but that's just me. I hunt with a hawken style .54 and I think it's really cool to have to get in range so those iron sights can be put to work. It's fun to level that barrel, sight in, and know you have a good sight picture to make the shot. Got one out of a blind back in 2016, the buck finally came in much closer than I needed him to but it was fun judging the distance and sight picture with the iron sights. I pretty much have no doubt that even a 1x due to the cross hair would add another 50 yards to my range perhaps more.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: The Big Game Hunter on January 06, 2021, 11:39:19 AM
Not that it matters but I have had a few conversations with someone who is apart of these rule changes for wdfw. It sounds like a very large majority of the people are in favor of this. He made it sound like there is a solid possibility of it passing.
Very interesting. I never thought I'd see the regulations modified to allow scopes during muzzleloader season. However, I was also really surprised when they changed the rules to allow regular inline muzzleloaders without the ignition being exposed to the weather.
We'll see what happens...
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: buckfvr on January 06, 2021, 11:39:26 AM
I waaaaaaaaant moooooree fooorrrr meeeeeee. It should be easier for me itís toooooo haaaaaard :cryriver:
[/quote


 :chuckle:  Ya, no kidding.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Sabotloader on January 06, 2021, 11:43:19 AM
$$$$$$ - think the State will sell hunting lic for ML season by allowing scopes.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 06, 2021, 12:17:10 PM
$$$$$$ - think the State will sell hunting lic for ML season by allowing scopes.
I'm not sure they will convert that many with scopes, but I'm often wrong.  The guys I tend to see in modern typically fall into one of a few groups.  The first is the big camp that has been going on for decades, basically the annual camping trip combined with hunting.  Many of those guys shoot their rifles once or twice a year and will tell you about the spike they shot in 1971 with their uncle...or about the glory days of camp getting 8 bulls a year for 20 years, until about 20 years ago.  Next is the new guy or the out of state guy, limited time/experience in the area.  Other main group I can think of is the really rural guys that live close enough to scout frequently, probably works in the woods and gets an elk first or second day--doesn't need a camp since practically hunts in backyard.
I really don't see the scope as drawing in that many more people, even if harvest rates go up 50%.  There was a small amount of switch over when archery gear was allowed in muzzleloader season, but I think that fluctuates based on whether muzzy or archery is getting the days closer to the rut.  There was a decent size switch when a bunch of new early units were added. 
I think that adding more units, early and late, or extending the early season another 5 days would probably cause the most switch over.  But I'm thinking more for W Washington, so maybe scopes would be a big factor on the eastside.  It might help sell a few more multi-season permits.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: buckfvr on January 06, 2021, 12:24:13 PM
Not that it matters but I have had a few conversations with someone who is apart of these rule changes for wdfw. It sounds like a very large majority of the people are in favor of this. He made it sound like there is a solid possibility of it passing.


I can see where plenty of guys who buy multi-season may support it or modern guys who would support it so the could multi-season it, but I call bs on very large majority.  My take from that is for some reason wdfw wants to do it so they clear the path by saying very large majority hoping no one questions it.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: paguy on January 06, 2021, 03:13:40 PM
 :yeah:
Anyone saying 300 is unethical with a scoped muzzy hasn't been paying attention to the advancements in muzzleloaders and components.  A 300gr bullet at 2,400fps is a freight train for a long ways out there and a lot of these factory and custome front staffers are easily capable of sub moa accuracy. You add a reticle into the game and it doubles your range. Ive put my eotec on my muzzy before for fun and its a night and day difference.  A guy can say it doesn't but if they do its glaringly obvious that they haven't shot a scoped muzzleloader or used some of the modern components that are available.

As bullblaster stated, your sights are all that is keeping these weapons "primitive". Take that away and we WILL see lost season opportunities.   If I could snap my fingers right now and go back to pre inlines, less muzzlestuffers, and some of those killer late seasons we used to have I would  :twocents:

I think you are exactly right.  Muzzleloading is no longer primitive or short range.  If going muzzy is no longer a handicap, they should do away with the third bracket and put all of you guys into the modern season.   
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 06, 2021, 03:39:13 PM
I'm primarily a modern firearm hunter so don't have a dog in this fight, but I think I would have a pretty hard time shooting MOA at 400 yards with a 4x scope which is equivalent to a 1x scope at 100 yards. A 1x at 150 yards would be like a 4x at 600 yards. It seems to me that would make a pretty small sight picture of the animal. :twocents:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Stein on January 06, 2021, 03:51:07 PM
Shoot Bob, I dial up 15 power to shoot MOA at 100 yards.  I think sniping is a young man's game.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 06, 2021, 04:55:12 PM
I'm primarily a modern firearm hunter so don't have a dog in this fight, but I think I would have a pretty hard time shooting MOA at 400 yards with a 4x scope which is equivalent to a 1x scope at 100 yards. A 1x at 150 yards would be like a 4x at 600 yards. It seems to me that would make a pretty small sight picture of the animal. :twocents:
Agreed.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 06, 2021, 07:20:52 PM
I'm primarily a modern firearm hunter so don't have a dog in this fight, but I think I would have a pretty hard time shooting MOA at 400 yards with a 4x scope which is equivalent to a 1x scope at 100 yards. A 1x at 150 yards would be like a 4x at 600 yards. It seems to me that would make a pretty small sight picture of the animal. :twocents:
Agreed.



This is what Iím thinking ...
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 06, 2021, 07:58:31 PM
I'm primarily a modern firearm hunter so don't have a dog in this fight, but I think I would have a pretty hard time shooting MOA at 400 yards with a 4x scope which is equivalent to a 1x scope at 100 yards. A 1x at 150 yards would be like a 4x at 600 yards. It seems to me that would make a pretty small sight picture of the animal. :twocents:
Agreed.



This is what Iím thinking ...

 :yeah:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: callturner on January 06, 2021, 08:06:43 PM
Well the seasons can't get much smaller, and scope or not muzzys take a bit more practice than buying a box of shells off the shelf and maybe shooting once a year.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on January 06, 2021, 08:22:15 PM
I'm primarily a modern firearm hunter so don't have a dog in this fight, but I think I would have a pretty hard time shooting MOA at 400 yards with a 4x scope which is equivalent to a 1x scope at 100 yards. A 1x at 150 yards would be like a 4x at 600 yards. It seems to me that would make a pretty small sight picture of the animal. :twocents:

That sounds like way to much common sense.... can't be right.. LOL

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bobcat on January 06, 2021, 08:40:13 PM
100% against scopes on muzzleloaders. I've hunted muzzleloader season in Washington since 1984. Scopes being legal will ruin it for me. I really doubt that they will be legal, but if so, I'll be selling my muzzleloader and will only hunt modern. I like my scoped rifles, but muzzleloaders just aren't muzzleloaders with a scope mounted on top, in my mind. If it does happen it will hopefully make modern seasons less crowded.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Alan K on January 06, 2021, 08:41:48 PM
The reality is that 4 MOA works just fine on an elk at 300 yards.  :dunno:  I wouldn't say I'm the best shot in the world but I can do 4 MOA all day long at 200 with my peep/globe prone. With a fixed cross hair in a scope, no perfect alignment needed, 300 would be a piece of cake. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 06, 2021, 08:43:03 PM
I'm primarily a modern firearm hunter so don't have a dog in this fight, but I think I would have a pretty hard time shooting MOA at 400 yards with a 4x scope which is equivalent to a 1x scope at 100 yards. A 1x at 150 yards would be like a 4x at 600 yards. It seems to me that would make a pretty small sight picture of the animal. :twocents:

Me too. But at least you donít need to be able to shoot MOA to kill and animal.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on January 06, 2021, 08:50:08 PM
The reality is that 4 MOA works just fine on an elk at 300 yards.  :dunno:  I wouldn't say I'm the best shot in the world but I can do 4 MOA all day long at 200 with my peep/globe prone. With a fixed cross hair in a scope, no perfect alignment needed, 300 would be a piece of cake. 

4 MOA at 300yards is 12".... Only speaking for myself here, but I have to do better than that.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 06, 2021, 08:51:35 PM
Well the seasons can't get much smaller, and scope or not muzzys take a bit more practice than buying a box of shells off the shelf and maybe shooting once a year.  :chuckle:

Not really. Specially with the wonderful internet. Where you can look up exactly what to shoot for your gun, shoot it 5 times and be zeroíd. Look up the drop of your load and dial your scope as needed or use the BDC.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Alan K on January 06, 2021, 09:03:47 PM
I think most folks who group 12" all day long when looking at 18" vitals would take the shot. More power to you if you need to group a golf ball before taking a shot, but I'd guess you're in a very small group there. The rules open things up to everyone, and not everyone has that high of a standard. In fact I'd hazard a guess that very few do.

We have folks posting 200+ yard muzzy deer kills without scopes, and I know it's not the topic, but 80+ yard archery shots on animals. At some point the line has to be drawn on the technology for the supposedly primitive seasons.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on January 06, 2021, 09:12:45 PM
I think most folks who group 12" all day long when looking at 18" vitals would take the shot. More power to you if you need to group a golf ball before taking a shot, but I'd guess you're in a very small group there. The rules open things up to everyone, and not everyone has that high of a standard. In fact I'd hazard a guess that very few do.

We have folks posting 200+ yard muzzy deer kills without scopes, and I know it's not the topic, but 80+ yard archery shots on animals. At some point the line has to be drawn on the technology for the supposedly primitive seasons.

I agree that people would take questionable shots with a scope on a muzzy at a farther distance than without, but I also think the same people take the same questionable shot with anything. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BOOM!! on January 06, 2021, 09:26:50 PM
I hope like heck they wonít allow scopes of any kind, we will loose too much in the long run. But if they do allow 1x scopes and I believe they just might, will, looks like Iím in the market for a 1x scope and I can tell you this, there arenít very many options out there
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 06, 2021, 09:33:23 PM
I hope like heck they wonít allow scopes of any kind, we will loose too much in the long run. But if they do allow 1x scopes and I believe they just might, will, looks like Iím in the market for a 1x scope and I can tell you this, there arenít very many options out there
I don't think there are any options at all that aren't a holographic type scope  :dunno: i did a search and couldn't find any
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Alan K on January 06, 2021, 09:45:58 PM
Everyone's effective range increases with scopes though, even at 1x. Someone comfortable at 75 yards with Tru glo sights that cover the animal any farther than that now has a nice fine cross hair and feels comfortable to 125. Those at 100 comfortable to 150. Those at 150 now 200, and on up. Greater effective range translates to more harvest.

I sure don't see the woods flush with animals anywhere close to how they used to be just 10-15 years ago. If we do continue to modernize the so called primitives, I hope seasons are adjusted accordingly.

I don't know that there are any 1x's out there either, but it wouldn't take a scope manufacturer any time to develop one and have it out in a year or two. I'd bet we see them getting made with BDC type reticles too, something like 25 yard hash mark increments.  When a market opens up like this, it will be filled.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on January 06, 2021, 09:57:01 PM
I hope like heck they wonít allow scopes of any kind, we will loose too much in the long run. But if they do allow 1x scopes and I believe they just might, will, looks like Iím in the market for a 1x scope and I can tell you this, there arenít very many options out there
I don't think there are any options at all that aren't a holographic type scope  :dunno: i did a search and couldn't find any

There isn't much out there right now.... there have been some that are now discontinued from Vortex who had one that I know of and Burris has made 2-3 different models through the years.   I wouldn't expect any manufactures  to jump on a straight 1x either, there just isn't enough demand.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 06, 2021, 09:59:00 PM
The reality is that 4 MOA works just fine on an elk at 300 yards.  :dunno:  I wouldn't say I'm the best shot in the world but I can do 4 MOA all day long at 200 with my peep/globe prone. With a fixed cross hair in a scope, no perfect alignment needed, 300 would be a piece of cake. 

4 MOA at 300yards is 12".... Only speaking for myself here, but I have to do better than that.

Agreed.   
4 MOA is probably OK for 100 yards.

At 300 yards, it's somewhere between a clean miss, a terrible wound or a lucky kill.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Alan K on January 06, 2021, 10:09:18 PM
Am I missing something? Putting a bullet in a 12" circle over an elks vitals is somewhere between a clean miss, terrible wound, or lucky kill?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 06, 2021, 10:31:11 PM
Am I missing something? Putting a bullet in a 12" circle over an elks vitals is somewhere between a clean miss, terrible wound, or lucky kill?

First off, your 12" circle is the radius, not the diameter.    4 MOA at 300 yards would make for a circle bigger than 24" diameter.
That 24" diameter circle is what you'd be placing over the elk's vitals at that range.

Even if your aim was perfect, and assuming you aimed 2/3's of the way down right behind the shoulder, that could put a bullet a lot of places you don't want it to be.



Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Alan K on January 06, 2021, 10:45:20 PM
No... I think you need to re-educate yourself on MOA Dan-O.

4 MOA at 300 yards is 12 inches (more like 12.5" in reality). When you make a 1/4 minute adjustment when sighting in your gun for 100 yards, does it move POI 1/4" or 1/2"?

Say you shoot a 4 shot group at 100 yards...  One 2" high, one 1.5" high, one in the bullseye, and one 2" low.  (All perfect windage for arguments sake) That is a 4 MOA group. What you're describing is missing the bullseye by 4 MOA.

Groups are described as measured from outside shot to outside shot, not distance from the bullseye.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 06, 2021, 11:35:26 PM
No... I think you need to re-educate yourself on MOA Dan-O.

4 MOA at 300 yards is 12 inches (more like 12.5" in reality). When you make a 1/4 minute adjustment when sighting in your gun for 100 yards, does it move POI 1/4" or 1/2"?

Say you shoot a 4 shot group at 100 yards...  One 2" high, one 1.5" high, one in the bullseye, and one 2" low.  (All perfect windage for arguments sake) That is a 4 MOA group. What you're describing is missing the bullseye by 4 MOA.

Groups are described as measured from outside shot to outside shot, not distance from the bullseye.

I stand corrected.     :o :sry:

If we ever bump into each other, I owe you a cheeseburger.

Hopefully, while eating these cheeseburgers we can head out to see the bull in back of my truck that I shot with my fancy new scoped muzzleloader.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Alan K on January 07, 2021, 06:08:39 AM
 :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 07, 2021, 08:00:03 AM
I hope like heck they wonít allow scopes of any kind, we will loose too much in the long run. But if they do allow 1x scopes and I believe they just might, will, looks like Iím in the market for a 1x scope and I can tell you this, there arenít very many options out there
I don't think there are any options at all that aren't a holographic type scope  :dunno: i did a search and couldn't find any

I will buy any 1x4 or whatever with BDC reticle, turn it down to 1X jb weld the scope in place and be prepared to take it to court with any numb skull gamy who canít obviously see the scope isnít capable of anything greater then 1X. Just like a plug in my shotgun makes an illegal weapon legal. They would understand the intent of the law.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 07, 2021, 08:18:23 AM
Id prefer an moa reticle or a turret over BDC personally. But ultimate preference is still no scopes allowed period.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Magnum_Willys on January 07, 2021, 08:21:47 AM
(http://)
Id prefer an moa reticle or a turret over BDC personally. But ultimate preference is still no scopes allowed period.

Turrets on one power muzzys - I like it! 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 07, 2021, 08:26:12 AM
Id prefer an moa reticle or a turret over BDC personally. But ultimate preference is still no scopes allowed period.

Agreed. No scopes period. But If there going allow scopes why not allow illuminated reticles.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 07, 2021, 10:28:32 AM
100% against scopes on muzzleloaders. I've hunted muzzleloader season in Washington since 1984. Scopes being legal will ruin it for me. I really doubt that they will be legal, but if so, I'll be selling my muzzleloader and will only hunt modern. I like my scoped rifles, but muzzleloaders just aren't muzzleloaders with a scope mounted on top, in my mind. If it does happen it will hopefully make modern seasons less crowded.

 Who says you have to give it up? you donít have to change just cause the law changes or technology Improves.

Guess I Donít understand this logic  :o ???
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bobcat on January 07, 2021, 10:45:38 AM
100% against scopes on muzzleloaders. I've hunted muzzleloader season in Washington since 1984. Scopes being legal will ruin it for me. I really doubt that they will be legal, but if so, I'll be selling my muzzleloader and will only hunt modern. I like my scoped rifles, but muzzleloaders just aren't muzzleloaders with a scope mounted on top, in my mind. If it does happen it will hopefully make modern seasons less crowded.

 Who says you have to give it up? you donít have to change just cause the law changes or technology Improves.

Guess I Donít understand this logic  :o ???

Because I don't agree with it. With scopes we would now have essentially just another modern firearm season. Only real difference is a single shot versus having the ability to shoot 4 or 5 times quickly.

The way I see it is both archery and muzzleloader seasons are for dedicated hunters who are able and willing to dedicate more time into practicing year around. This should limit the number of people participating in archery and muzzleloader seasons. But instead, with the possible addition of scopes on muzzleloaders, my feeling is that the numbers of people hunting muzzleloader seasons will increase substantially.

When I hunt muzzleloader seasons I do so because there are a lot less other hunters in the field. Take that advantage away and I'm no longer interested.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 07, 2021, 11:14:43 AM
Bobcat good argument if they were allowing scopes with magnification. I already admitted Iíve never seen through a 1x scoped reticle but I have looked through a 1x red dot and 1x halo sight and IMHO it isnít going be much of a difference out past 100-150.

I do agree that adding a 4x or 3x9 ect would Be more of the game changer everyone is afraid of here. Who knows maybe people are really more afraid that allowing a 1x would be the gateway to allowing variable magnifications  :dunno:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BigGoonTuna on January 07, 2021, 11:39:41 AM
Just to play devilís advocate here, but you often hear guys talking about .45-70s as being a ďbrush gunĒ and no good over 150 yards. A .50 cal muzzleloader has roughly the same ballistics as a .45-70, so why would a higher magnification be a ďgame changerĒ over a 1x scope in this situation?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 07, 2021, 12:26:09 PM
Just to play devilís advocate here, but you often hear guys talking about .45-70s as being a ďbrush gunĒ and no good over 150 yards. A .50 cal muzzleloader has roughly the same ballistics as a .45-70, so why would a higher magnification be a ďgame changerĒ over a 1x scope in this situation?

I know nothing about a .45-70 but I have shot my own muzzleloader with a 4x scope on it at 200 and without and I can tell that itís not much of a problem with the scope but tough without.  IĎD hardly say a muzzleloader these days ...  Ē Isnít much good over 150Ē Ive killed an elk at 191 with open sights.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Stein on January 07, 2021, 02:15:23 PM
This is very similar to the video on the 1400 yard elk kill.  Just because many think that's twice or four times as far as they would shoot doesn't mean that a magical limitation exists on how far people would or could shoot.

There are several things that could limit the distance one would shoot and I think it's hard to argue that better sights would not make at least a decent percentage of people comfortable shooting farther.  It will also increase accuracy at most ranges.  Both would be expected to increase the harvest some level, maybe a bunch, maybe rounding error, who knows?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 07, 2021, 02:22:30 PM
Just to play devilís advocate here, but you often hear guys talking about .45-70s as being a ďbrush gunĒ and no good over 150 yards. A .50 cal muzzleloader has roughly the same ballistics as a .45-70, so why would a higher magnification be a ďgame changerĒ over a 1x scope in this situation?

The limiting factor for both weapons is the ability to aim and/or knowledge and practice with the external ballistics. The terminal ballistics of either allow for farther shots.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: pd on January 07, 2021, 06:09:59 PM
4 more pages, Gentlemen.  Then we exceed the previous record for this topic.

 ;)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BigTines on January 07, 2021, 07:24:05 PM
I donít see anybody complaining about using 209 primers anymore. I think after a year or two people will get used to the idea and realize that hardly any more hunters switch to muzzleloading. People are way overreacting I think on this topic.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Wizekrakr on January 07, 2021, 07:46:52 PM
One thing I think is a legitimate concern is if this is a slippery slope.  Or should I say just the next step on the slippery slope.  Reality is, the slippery slope has been happening all along just one step at a time. Modern in-lines, 209 primers, closed breech,etc.  Take a look around the country.  I won't name the forums but if you look at other states you will find the same thing happening. Wisconsin allowed 1x scopes quite a while back.  About 10 years ago they changed that to adjustable power. Utah did that too I believe.  South Dakota is another one that went from 1x to more power.  WDFW said they received a lot of requests to allow low power scopes.  Those letters are probably why we are talking about this today.  If WDFW approves 1x scopes in March.  So be it. But to keep it from being changed to allow variable power scopes down the road some years.  Letters from us, lots of em, is what is going to keep that from happening. WDFW is responding to letters received asking for a change.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mr Mykiss on January 07, 2021, 09:34:33 PM
But my 1x doesnít work for me anymore and itís fuzzy and I need more magnification to make it easier. Not much just 3x.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on January 07, 2021, 09:42:28 PM
This is really the same argument for every platform... big picture time.
Look at archery... not even going to discuss a single advancement, but when I started   40 yards was far, now 90yds isn't uncommon.

Modern.... 15 years ago 400yds was pushing "ethical", I'll go shoot 900 now and if I I don't shoot MOA, I am pissed.

When I started muzzleloader, Knight was new and everyone was screaming that it wasn't "primitive".   Every time there is an advancement in anything, there are always a bunch of guys going insane screaming that its the end of the world....

 Should it stop??   Maybe.... but it's not going to.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 07, 2021, 10:06:45 PM
I donít see anybody complaining about using 209 primers anymore. I think after a year or two people will get used to the idea and realize that hardly any more hunters switch to muzzleloading. People are way overreacting I think on this topic.  :twocents:

209 seem to be a step sidewise not a step forward. Just another  way to make the gun go pop. Friends I know have had more issues with 209 then caps. I donít plan to ever shoot 209. Whatís the point. But a scope? Ya I would. And more rifle guys would make the switch. I bet rifle guys would love for this to get passed. Spread out the hunters a little more.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 07, 2021, 11:35:02 PM
This is really the same argument for every platform... big picture time.
Look at archery... not even going to discuss a single advancement, but when I started   40 yards was far, now 90yds isn't uncommon.

Modern.... 15 years ago 400yds was pushing "ethical", I'll go shoot 900 now and if I I don't shoot MOA, I am pissed.

When I started muzzleloader, Knight was new and everyone was screaming that it wasn't "primitive".   Every time there is an advancement in anything, there are always a bunch of guys going insane screaming that its the end of the world....

 Should it stop??   Maybe.... but it's not going to.

Yep there was a day there werenít scopes on rifles or compound bows but muzzleloading isnít allowed to have  advancements.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: full choke on January 07, 2021, 11:56:58 PM
Honest question: Why does muzzleloading need advancements?

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 08, 2021, 07:33:29 AM
This is really the same argument for every platform... big picture time.
Look at archery... not even going to discuss a single advancement, but when I started   40 yards was far, now 90yds isn't uncommon.

Modern.... 15 years ago 400yds was pushing "ethical", I'll go shoot 900 now and if I I don't shoot MOA, I am pissed.

When I started muzzleloader, Knight was new and everyone was screaming that it wasn't "primitive".   Every time there is an advancement in anything, there are always a bunch of guys going insane screaming that its the end of the world....

 Should it stop??   Maybe.... but it's not going to.

Yep there was a day there werenít scopes on rifles or compound bows but muzzleloading isnít allowed to have  advancements.

 :yeah: except sabots, jacketed bullets, fiber optics, 209s, inlines, pelletized powder, magnum charged etc...  :P
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 08, 2021, 07:37:09 AM
First rifle scopes were on muzzleloaders in the 1840's, compound bow didn't come about until the 1960's.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 08, 2021, 08:01:38 AM
To me it isnt about ďadvancementsĒ or technology. It is about having different methods for different seasons. There isnt much traditional or old or not advanced about a modern muzzle loader with rifle primers, jacketed bullets, pellet powder, and fiber optic sights. It is a different season with a different set of rules. Nothing more nothing less. Imo a scope brings it too close to what a modern firearm is and at some point it should just be absorbed into modern season and to me that cut off is with scopes  the main limiting factor with current muzzy season is the sights.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: paguy on January 08, 2021, 08:12:28 AM
 :yeah:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 08, 2021, 10:08:38 AM
Honest question: Why does muzzleloading need advancements?

First of all I didnít say they needed them, itís the natural evolution of things. Just like I pointed out that rifles also started with iron sights back in the day and bows werenít compound with fiber optics. Also Iím not advocating for them inplayimg devilís advocate and if they approve it then Iíll still use my #11 caps and my loose powder and lead bullets. I have a set up also with jacketed bullets and a scope I can use in any weapon seasons in other states. If they approve it and someone gets into muzzleloader hunting then great, if a current muzzleloader guy changes his stuff and puts on a 1x Iím not going to begrudge him for doing so.

 I think everyone is too up tight about it, these herds have survived many advancements from other methods and yes including jacketed and 209 from muszyís (thanks Johnathan_s) And they are still here and will not be wiped out because a guy puts a 1x on his muzzy or a few more hunt the already shortest 1 week season out there.

So far bullblaster brings up the best opposing point without the threat of the sky falling and I can say that itís hard not to agree with his view. The only problem with it that I can see is The Dept will never do an any weapon season and loose the revenue of a dedicated muzzy season and all those Application fees.

So weíre right back to do we fight between us or accept it may actually bring new hunters into the sport because of it? There are people out there that heard horror stories of opening day modern seasons that canít or are not interested in bows that might do a muzzy season because of it.

And then there is one of the Biggest reasons I can get behind and that is if this extends s few more seasons for an old guy and gets him out of his easy chair then itís a good thing. The closer some of us get to that easy chair itís hard to argue against that too. You young guys arenít thinking about that yet cause you donít have to but someday your going to be happy to still be able to get out there even if it means a little technology to do so.

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 08, 2021, 10:26:17 AM
This is really the same argument for every platform... big picture time.
Look at archery... not even going to discuss a single advancement, but when I started   40 yards was far, now 90yds isn't uncommon.

Modern.... 15 years ago 400yds was pushing "ethical", I'll go shoot 900 now and if I I don't shoot MOA, I am pissed.

When I started muzzleloader, Knight was new and everyone was screaming that it wasn't "primitive".   Every time there is an advancement in anything, there are always a bunch of guys going insane screaming that its the end of the world....

 Should it stop??   Maybe.... but it's not going to.

Yep there was a day there werenít scopes on rifles or compound bows but muzzleloading isnít allowed to have  advancements.

 :yeah: except sabots, jacketed bullets, fiber optics, 209s, inlines, pelletized powder, magnum charged etc...  :P

Johnathan I get it And yes they have had technology advancements. I wasnít trying to say they havenít. I was pointing out more of the fact that everyone freaks out when it comes to one of these proposed changes especially for a method they do not even use. All the while forgetting that they have had the luxury of improvements and reap the rewards of but get very territorial If another method seeks improvements. 

Probably should have ended that with a ? mark to emphasize that!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mtnwalker on January 08, 2021, 10:36:46 AM
This is really the same argument for every platform... big picture time.
Look at archery... not even going to discuss a single advancement, but when I started   40 yards was far, now 90yds isn't uncommon.

Modern.... 15 years ago 400yds was pushing "ethical", I'll go shoot 900 now and if I I don't shoot MOA, I am pissed.

When I started muzzleloader, Knight was new and everyone was screaming that it wasn't "primitive".   Every time there is an advancement in anything, there are always a bunch of guys going insane screaming that its the end of the world....

 Should it stop??   Maybe.... but it's not going to.

Yep there was a day there werenít scopes on rifles or compound bows but muzzleloading isnít allowed to have  advancements.

 :yeah: except sabots, jacketed bullets, fiber optics, 209s, inlines, pelletized powder, magnum charged etc...  :P

Johnathan I get it And yes they have had technology advancements. I wasnít trying to say they havenít. I was pointing out more of the fact that everyone freaks out when it comes to one of these proposed changes especially for a method they do not even use. All the while forgetting that they have had the luxury of improvements and reap the rewards of but get very territorial If another method seeks improvements. 

Probably should have ended that with a ? mark to emphasize that!

The alternative being what... a free for all? If we don't want what Utah has which is zero regulation and basically just another rifle season, then lines have to be drawn somewhere. Scopes or no scopes is a very logical place to draw a line to keep things somewhat "primitive"
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 08, 2021, 10:55:42 AM
This is really the same argument for every platform... big picture time.
Look at archery... not even going to discuss a single advancement, but when I started   40 yards was far, now 90yds isn't uncommon.

Modern.... 15 years ago 400yds was pushing "ethical", I'll go shoot 900 now and if I I don't shoot MOA, I am pissed.

When I started muzzleloader, Knight was new and everyone was screaming that it wasn't "primitive".   Every time there is an advancement in anything, there are always a bunch of guys going insane screaming that its the end of the world....

 Should it stop??   Maybe.... but it's not going to.

Yep there was a day there werenít scopes on rifles or compound bows but muzzleloading isnít allowed to have  advancements.

 :yeah: except sabots, jacketed bullets, fiber optics, 209s, inlines, pelletized powder, magnum charged etc...  :P

Johnathan I get it And yes they have had technology advancements. I wasnít trying to say they havenít. I was pointing out more of the fact that everyone freaks out when it comes to one of these proposed changes especially for a method they do not even use. All the while forgetting that they have had the luxury of improvements and reap the rewards of but get very territorial If another method seeks improvements. 

Probably should have ended that with a ? mark to emphasize that!

The alternative being what... a free for all? If we don't want what Utah has which is zero regulation and basically just another rifle season, then lines have to be drawn somewhere. Scopes or no scopes is a very logical place to draw a line to keep things somewhat "primitive"

A 1x is hardly a free for all   
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 08, 2021, 11:04:02 AM
This is really the same argument for every platform... big picture time.
Look at archery... not even going to discuss a single advancement, but when I started   40 yards was far, now 90yds isn't uncommon.

Modern.... 15 years ago 400yds was pushing "ethical", I'll go shoot 900 now and if I I don't shoot MOA, I am pissed.

When I started muzzleloader, Knight was new and everyone was screaming that it wasn't "primitive".   Every time there is an advancement in anything, there are always a bunch of guys going insane screaming that its the end of the world....

 Should it stop??   Maybe.... but it's not going to.

Yep there was a day there werenít scopes on rifles or compound bows but muzzleloading isnít allowed to have  advancements.

 :yeah: except sabots, jacketed bullets, fiber optics, 209s, inlines, pelletized powder, magnum charged etc...  :P

Johnathan I get it And yes they have had technology advancements. I wasnít trying to say they havenít. I was pointing out more of the fact that everyone freaks out when it comes to one of these proposed changes especially for a method they do not even use. All the while forgetting that they have had the luxury of improvements and reap the rewards of but get very territorial If another method seeks improvements. 

Probably should have ended that with a ? mark to emphasize that!

The alternative being what... a free for all? If we don't want what Utah has which is zero regulation and basically just another rifle season, then lines have to be drawn somewhere. Scopes or no scopes is a very logical place to draw a line to keep things somewhat "primitive"

A 1x is hardly a free for all
I dont think it would be unreasonable to expect within the next couple years to hear the argument that there isnt any or very few 1x scopes on the market and wdfw allows scopes so we should be able to use what is available.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BreezyBear on January 08, 2021, 11:17:27 AM
I emailed Vortex last week about this, they responded that they would be happy to produce a 1x scope if needed.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 08, 2021, 11:22:55 AM
This is really the same argument for every platform... big picture time.
Look at archery... not even going to discuss a single advancement, but when I started   40 yards was far, now 90yds isn't uncommon.

Modern.... 15 years ago 400yds was pushing "ethical", I'll go shoot 900 now and if I I don't shoot MOA, I am pissed.

When I started muzzleloader, Knight was new and everyone was screaming that it wasn't "primitive".   Every time there is an advancement in anything, there are always a bunch of guys going insane screaming that its the end of the world....

 Should it stop??   Maybe.... but it's not going to.

Yep there was a day there werenít scopes on rifles or compound bows but muzzleloading isnít allowed to have  advancements.

 :yeah: except sabots, jacketed bullets, fiber optics, 209s, inlines, pelletized powder, magnum charged etc...  :P

Johnathan I get it And yes they have had technology advancements. I wasnít trying to say they havenít. I was pointing out more of the fact that everyone freaks out when it comes to one of these proposed changes especially for a method they do not even use. All the while forgetting that they have had the luxury of improvements and reap the rewards of but get very territorial If another method seeks improvements. 

Probably should have ended that with a ? mark to emphasize that!

I'm basically a curmudgeon on every proposed advancement for archery and muzzleloader  :chuckle: One thing a scope is nice on a muzzleloader for is load development. Really helps  :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: pd on January 08, 2021, 11:37:27 AM
I emailed Vortex last week about this, they responded that they would be happy to produce a 1x scope if needed.

Well, of course they would be happy to do this.  Think about it: A 1x scope is basically an aluminum tube with a piece of glass at either end.  Can you think of an easier product to manufacture?  No adjustments necessary, no grinding of glass, etc.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 08, 2021, 12:19:24 PM
This is really the same argument for every platform... big picture time.
Look at archery... not even going to discuss a single advancement, but when I started   40 yards was far, now 90yds isn't uncommon.

Modern.... 15 years ago 400yds was pushing "ethical", I'll go shoot 900 now and if I I don't shoot MOA, I am pissed.

When I started muzzleloader, Knight was new and everyone was screaming that it wasn't "primitive".   Every time there is an advancement in anything, there are always a bunch of guys going insane screaming that its the end of the world....

 Should it stop??   Maybe.... but it's not going to.

Yep there was a day there werenít scopes on rifles or compound bows but muzzleloading isnít allowed to have  advancements.

 :yeah: except sabots, jacketed bullets, fiber optics, 209s, inlines, pelletized powder, magnum charged etc...  :P

Johnathan I get it And yes they have had technology advancements. I wasnít trying to say they havenít. I was pointing out more of the fact that everyone freaks out when it comes to one of these proposed changes especially for a method they do not even use. All the while forgetting that they have had the luxury of improvements and reap the rewards of but get very territorial If another method seeks improvements. 

Probably should have ended that with a ? mark to emphasize that!

The alternative being what... a free for all? If we don't want what Utah has which is zero regulation and basically just another rifle season, then lines have to be drawn somewhere. Scopes or no scopes is a very logical place to draw a line to keep things somewhat "primitive"

A 1x is hardly a free for all

Have you never heard of the term death by a thousand cuts? This year itís 1x.. muzzys are basically a rifle at this point anyway. Open sites are the only thing keeping it kinda primitive. I canít wait for the 3 day early muzzy season..
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 08, 2021, 01:24:19 PM
Didnít take long for the sky to fall again  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: full choke on January 08, 2021, 01:40:27 PM
Didnít take long for the sky to fall again  :rolleyes:

I guess I didn't realize our elk and deer herds were in such good shape that we should be expanding the tools allowed to hunt them in a primitive weapon season.

That is good news. Maybe, if we are really just trying to make things a little easier for some, we should just open up the regulations. Cows, any bull, whatever. Cut the season length and open'r up. I mean, as I get older, walking those steep slopes is getting harder- 7 days really wears on a guy. Maybe we should allow motorized vehicles too. It is only fair- the advancements in bicycles should not be disregarded either.

And I realize that sounds stupid and far fetched- but so does waterproof inline scoped muzzleloaders in a "primitive" weapon season.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Guardhair on January 08, 2021, 01:54:10 PM
  I was just looking thru the 2020 hunting pamphlet for some phone numbers Iíd written down and I was curious if the term ďprimitiveĒ was used in the muzzleloader section or the archery section. I couldnít find it but I didnít spend a lot of time looking on each page. A few years ago I was asked by a wildlife biologist what I thought was the most challenging thing about hunting in Washington. I told him it was keeping up with the ever changing rules and regulations!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 08, 2021, 02:21:46 PM
This is really the same argument for every platform... big picture time.
Look at archery... not even going to discuss a single advancement, but when I started   40 yards was far, now 90yds isn't uncommon.

Modern.... 15 years ago 400yds was pushing "ethical", I'll go shoot 900 now and if I I don't shoot MOA, I am pissed.

When I started muzzleloader, Knight was new and everyone was screaming that it wasn't "primitive".   Every time there is an advancement in anything, there are always a bunch of guys going insane screaming that its the end of the world....

 Should it stop??   Maybe.... but it's not going to.

Yep there was a day there werenít scopes on rifles or compound bows but muzzleloading isnít allowed to have  advancements.

 :yeah: except sabots, jacketed bullets, fiber optics, 209s, inlines, pelletized powder, magnum charged etc...  :P

Johnathan I get it And yes they have had technology advancements. I wasnít trying to say they havenít. I was pointing out more of the fact that everyone freaks out when it comes to one of these proposed changes especially for a method they do not even use. All the while forgetting that they have had the luxury of improvements and reap the rewards of but get very territorial If another method seeks improvements. 

Probably should have ended that with a ? mark to emphasize that!

The alternative being what... a free for all? If we don't want what Utah has which is zero regulation and basically just another rifle season, then lines have to be drawn somewhere. Scopes or no scopes is a very logical place to draw a line to keep things somewhat "primitive"

A 1x is hardly a free for all
I dont think it would be unreasonable to expect within the next couple years to hear the argument that there isnt any or very few 1x scopes on the market and wdfw allows scopes so we should be able to use what is available.


Sounds like you have answered the question I asked earlier? Are you guys just afraid A 1x will be the gateway to variable magnification scopes?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 08, 2021, 02:24:27 PM
Didnít take long for the sky to fall again  :rolleyes:

I guess I didn't realize our elk and deer herds were in such good shape that we should be expanding the tools allowed to hunt them in a primitive weapon season.

That is good news. Maybe, if we are really just trying to make things a little easier for some, we should just open up the regulations. Cows, any bull, whatever. Cut the season length and open'r up. I mean, as I get older, walking those steep slopes is getting harder- 7 days really wears on a guy. Maybe we should allow motorized vehicles too. It is only fair- the advancements in bicycles should not be disregarded either.

And I realize that sounds stupid and far fetched- but so does waterproof inline scoped muzzleloaders in a "primitive" weapon season.

Well we can agree on one thing, yes your comment sounds stupid and far fetched because at the moment the only thing on the table is a 1x scope NOT all that other nonsense.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: full choke on January 08, 2021, 02:27:55 PM
Didnít take long for the sky to fall again  :rolleyes:

I guess I didn't realize our elk and deer herds were in such good shape that we should be expanding the tools allowed to hunt them in a primitive weapon season.

That is good news. Maybe, if we are really just trying to make things a little easier for some, we should just open up the regulations. Cows, any bull, whatever. Cut the season length and open'r up. I mean, as I get older, walking those steep slopes is getting harder- 7 days really wears on a guy. Maybe we should allow motorized vehicles too. It is only fair- the advancements in bicycles should not be disregarded either.

And I realize that sounds stupid and far fetched- but so does waterproof inline scoped muzzleloaders in a "primitive" weapon season.

Well we can agree on one thing, yes your comment sounds stupid and far fetched because at the moment the only thing on the table is a 1x scope NOT all that other nonsense.

Actually, what is on the table, is feel good policy changes.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 08, 2021, 02:28:18 PM
This is really the same argument for every platform... big picture time.
Look at archery... not even going to discuss a single advancement, but when I started   40 yards was far, now 90yds isn't uncommon.

Modern.... 15 years ago 400yds was pushing "ethical", I'll go shoot 900 now and if I I don't shoot MOA, I am pissed.

When I started muzzleloader, Knight was new and everyone was screaming that it wasn't "primitive".   Every time there is an advancement in anything, there are always a bunch of guys going insane screaming that its the end of the world....

 Should it stop??   Maybe.... but it's not going to.

Yep there was a day there werenít scopes on rifles or compound bows but muzzleloading isnít allowed to have  advancements.

 :yeah: except sabots, jacketed bullets, fiber optics, 209s, inlines, pelletized powder, magnum charged etc...  :P

Johnathan I get it And yes they have had technology advancements. I wasnít trying to say they havenít. I was pointing out more of the fact that everyone freaks out when it comes to one of these proposed changes especially for a method they do not even use. All the while forgetting that they have had the luxury of improvements and reap the rewards of but get very territorial If another method seeks improvements. 

Probably should have ended that with a ? mark to emphasize that!

The alternative being what... a free for all? If we don't want what Utah has which is zero regulation and basically just another rifle season, then lines have to be drawn somewhere. Scopes or no scopes is a very logical place to draw a line to keep things somewhat "primitive"

A 1x is hardly a free for all
I dont think it would be unreasonable to expect within the next couple years to hear the argument that there isnt any or very few 1x scopes on the market and wdfw allows scopes so we should be able to use what is available.


Sounds like you have answered the question I asked earlier? Are you guys just afraid A 1x will be the gateway to variable magnification scopes?
Read post #249 for my opinion...

I just added this piece as a side thought that the 1x could potentially be a slippery slope
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: huntingfool7 on January 08, 2021, 02:33:58 PM
  I was just looking thru the 2020 hunting pamphlet for some phone numbers Iíd written down and I was curious if the term ďprimitiveĒ was used in the muzzleloader section or the archery section. I couldnít find it but I didnít spend a lot of time looking on each page. A few years ago I was asked by a wildlife biologist what I thought was the most challenging thing about hunting in Washington. I told him it was keeping up with the ever changing rules and regulations!

Too much time spent in meetings...need to show that something is getting done!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 08, 2021, 02:41:48 PM
Could 1x be a slippery slope?

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/equipmentproposals_public_0.pdf
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 08, 2021, 02:51:56 PM
Didnít take long for the sky to fall again  :rolleyes:

I guess I didn't realize our elk and deer herds were in such good shape that we should be expanding the tools allowed to hunt them in a primitive weapon season.

That is good news. Maybe, if we are really just trying to make things a little easier for some, we should just open up the regulations. Cows, any bull, whatever. Cut the season length and open'r up. I mean, as I get older, walking those steep slopes is getting harder- 7 days really wears on a guy. Maybe we should allow motorized vehicles too. It is only fair- the advancements in bicycles should not be disregarded either.

And I realize that sounds stupid and far fetched- but so does waterproof inline scoped muzzleloaders in a "primitive" weapon season.
For elk, I think your point makes more sense.  If people move from modern (November to early October) over to early muzzy, it might have a bit more impact on harvest.  If deer hunters are moving modern to muzzy (late Oct over to late Sept/early Oct) I'd guess that harvest might drop.  Not sure late season harvest would make much difference.  Just my opinion for Westside.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 08, 2021, 03:24:04 PM
Could 1x be a slippery slope?

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/equipmentproposals_public_0.pdf

Good recommendation ďthe departmentĒ
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: idahohuntr on January 08, 2021, 03:26:32 PM
Could 1x be a slippery slope?

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/equipmentproposals_public_0.pdf

Good recommendation ďthe departmentĒ
:yeah:

I had not seen that earlier.  I suspected the Department was floating this so they can silence some squeaky wheels...not because they had a desire to allow 1x scopes.  Appears my suspicions were correct.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: pd on January 08, 2021, 03:40:38 PM
Could 1x be a slippery slope?

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/equipmentproposals_public_0.pdf

Regarding your question, I have no idea, no comment.

But thank you for posting that link.  It would appear (based upon the department's recommendations) that the following equipment changes would likely be accepted by the Commission: Break crumb nocks, peep sight verifiers, 1x scopes.  Personally, I don't care--I agree with WDFW that these are not substantially important changes (will not affect the total harvest numbers).
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on January 08, 2021, 03:45:40 PM
Could 1x be a slippery slope?

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/equipmentproposals_public_0.pdf

Good recommendation ďthe departmentĒ
:yeah:

I had not seen that earlier.  I suspected the Department was floating this so they can silence some squeaky wheels...not because they had a desire to allow 1x scopes.  Appears my suspicions were correct.

From reading that, sounds like the WDFW really doesn't care either way.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: paguy on January 08, 2021, 03:51:35 PM
I know a few hard core rifle elk hunters on the west side who cant wait to buy there new muzzy and scopes. You make muzzy's a 200 yard killer for the average joe and your going to see more join the fun. Because who wouldn't rather chase big bulls during the rut in october than pick up the scraps in november. Your going to half to hunt rifle season if you want to get away from the crowds over here.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: idahohuntr on January 08, 2021, 04:00:32 PM
Could 1x be a slippery slope?

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/equipmentproposals_public_0.pdf

Good recommendation ďthe departmentĒ
:yeah:

I had not seen that earlier.  I suspected the Department was floating this so they can silence some squeaky wheels...not because they had a desire to allow 1x scopes.  Appears my suspicions were correct.

From reading that, sounds like the WDFW really doesn't care either way.
:dunno:
Says they do not recommend allowing scopes...that's as strong as they would word something like that. 

If the proposal doesn't get overwhelming support, it will be easy to reject. Dont run out and buy 1x scopes.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 08, 2021, 04:06:15 PM
I know a few hard core rifle elk hunters on the west side who cant wait to buy there new muzzy and scopes. You make muzzy's a 200 yard killer for the average joe and your going to see more join the fun. Because who wouldn't rather chase big bull during the rut in october than pick up the scraps in november.
I'd say about a half dozen of the muzzy guys I see out in the woods (and to include myself), made the switch because of the scraps in November once more early units were added and then finally the 209/protected breech.  I've been trying to get a few others to switch...maybe the scope will make the difference, but I'm doubtful.  They did switch units to ones that don't have early muzzy, and a few now go to eastern Washington; but seems most of the rifle hunters I know that feel shafted are just going to Idaho.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on January 08, 2021, 05:24:57 PM
Could 1x be a slippery slope?

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/equipmentproposals_public_0.pdf

Good recommendation ďthe departmentĒ
:yeah:

I had not seen that earlier.  I suspected the Department was floating this so they can silence some squeaky wheels...not because they had a desire to allow 1x scopes.  Appears my suspicions were correct.

From reading that, sounds like the WDFW really doesn't care either way.
:dunno:
Says they do not recommend allowing scopes...that's as strong as they would word something like that. 

If the proposal doesn't get overwhelming support, it will be easy to reject. Dont run out and buy 1x scopes.
Could 1x be a slippery slope?

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/equipmentproposals_public_0.pdf

Good recommendation ďthe departmentĒ
:yeah:

I had not seen that earlier.  I suspected the Department was floating this so they can silence some squeaky wheels...not because they had a desire to allow 1x scopes.  Appears my suspicions were correct.

From reading that, sounds like the WDFW really doesn't care either way.
:dunno:
Says they do not recommend allowing scopes...that's as strong as they would word something like that. 

If the proposal doesn't get overwhelming support, it will be easy to reject. Dont run out and buy 1x scopes.

Are we reading two different things?   The last sentence is pretty clear...
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 08, 2021, 05:38:57 PM
Could 1x be a slippery slope?

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/equipmentproposals_public_0.pdf

Good recommendation ďthe departmentĒ
:yeah:

I had not seen that earlier.  I suspected the Department was floating this so they can silence some squeaky wheels...not because they had a desire to allow 1x scopes.  Appears my suspicions were correct.

From reading that, sounds like the WDFW really doesn't care either way.
:dunno:
Says they do not recommend allowing scopes...that's as strong as they would word something like that. 

If the proposal doesn't get overwhelming support, it will be easy to reject. Dont run out and buy 1x scopes.
It say they do not recommend telescopic scopes, not all scopes. Recommendation 3 addresses scopes with no magnification and they state they are not opposed to them.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 08, 2021, 09:32:47 PM
https://ibb.co/ZJY6HJw

Tell me I wouldn't look good in the woods with this scoped rig!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: idahohuntr on January 08, 2021, 10:53:01 PM
Could 1x be a slippery slope?

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/equipmentproposals_public_0.pdf

Good recommendation ďthe departmentĒ
:yeah:

I had not seen that earlier.  I suspected the Department was floating this so they can silence some squeaky wheels...not because they had a desire to allow 1x scopes.  Appears my suspicions were correct.

From reading that, sounds like the WDFW really doesn't care either way.
:dunno:
Says they do not recommend allowing scopes...that's as strong as they would word something like that. 

If the proposal doesn't get overwhelming support, it will be easy to reject. Dont run out and buy 1x scopes.
It say they do not recommend telescopic scopes, not all scopes. Recommendation 3 addresses scopes with no magnification and they state they are not opposed to them.
Ahhh...yes, I did not catch that.  I wasn't reading the whole thing...or maybe I needed some magnified glasses...pun intended!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Magnum_Willys on January 08, 2021, 11:31:55 PM
I'd say about a half dozen of the muzzy guys I see out in the woods (and to include myself), made the switch because of the scraps in November once more early units were added and then finally the 209/protected breech.

All my buddys but one have switched to muzzy last couple years in WA.  He will switch if optics allowed.  No tags to draw on east side anymore and just scraps in Nov so at least Muzzy you get to hear em talking !
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 09, 2021, 07:55:29 AM
Could 1x be a slippery slope?

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/equipmentproposals_public_0.pdf

Good recommendation ďthe departmentĒ
:yeah:

I had not seen that earlier.  I suspected the Department was floating this so they can silence some squeaky wheels...not because they had a desire to allow 1x scopes.  Appears my suspicions were correct.

From reading that, sounds like the WDFW really doesn't care either way.
:dunno:
Says they do not recommend allowing scopes...that's as strong as they would word something like that. 

If the proposal doesn't get overwhelming support, it will be easy to reject. Dont run out and buy 1x scopes.
It say they do not recommend telescopic scopes, not all scopes. Recommendation 3 addresses scopes with no magnification and they state they are not opposed to them.

I was referring to issue 9 that the original poster posted where they did not recommend the initiative.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 253shotgunner on January 09, 2021, 10:21:08 AM
Bob33 thanks! Now we know the proposed change is for 1x scopes and WDFW is against scopes with magnification.

I am the original poster. The above is what I understand is their position. It was the change over to 209 primers that got me to switch to muzzleloader. I actually hope we don't go to 1x scopes.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: scotbradly726 on January 14, 2021, 08:30:29 AM
OK, so call me ignorant, but I guess I don't understand what advantage you'd gain by using a 1x scope? What would the point be?

I have a week left in my late muzzy season, and as soon as the season is over, I'm putting this Williams set up on my Thompson Black Diamond XR. They claim it'll make a gun accurate to 200yards.

https://shop.williamsgunsight.com/ecommerce/p/wgrs--western-precision-muzzleloading-set-676584

I guess I don't understand the whole non-magnified scope thing, either way pro or con.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: headshot5 on January 14, 2021, 08:59:08 AM
The only things I see is it would allow a little more pinpoint accuracy in the 150-200 yard range.  Since you wouldn't be covering your target with a big old front bead.  And perhaps depending on the scope a little better low light performance than a peep.     
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 14, 2021, 09:00:33 AM
OK, so call me ignorant, but I guess I don't understand what advantage you'd gain by using a 1x scope? What would the point be?

I have a week left in my late muzzy season, and as soon as the season is over, I'm putting this Williams set up on my Thompson Black Diamond XR. They claim it'll make a gun accurate to 200yards.

https://shop.williamsgunsight.com/ecommerce/p/wgrs--western-precision-muzzleloading-set-676584

I guess I don't understand the whole non-magnified scope thing, either way pro or con.
Only advantage i see is the ability to adjust the focus.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: buckfvr on January 14, 2021, 09:26:42 AM
OK, so call me ignorant, but I guess I don't understand what advantage you'd gain by using a 1x scope? What would the point be?

I have a week left in my late muzzy season, and as soon as the season is over, I'm putting this Williams set up on my Thompson Black Diamond XR. They claim it'll make a gun accurate to 200yards.

https://shop.williamsgunsight.com/ecommerce/p/wgrs--western-precision-muzzleloading-set-676584

I guess I don't understand the whole non-magnified scope thing, either way pro or con.
Only advantage i see is the ability to adjust the focus.

 :yeah:  Theres nothing to gain but focus.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Alan K on January 14, 2021, 09:31:52 AM
Not having to align your peep perfectly is a massive plus at extended ranges. I suspect group size getting bigger out there with open sights is mostly about alignment being off ever so slightly shot to shot. The fine crosshairs in globe sights are plenty repeatable.  With a scope, that's not a problem anymore.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mtnwalker on January 14, 2021, 10:44:00 AM
OK, so call me ignorant, but I guess I don't understand what advantage you'd gain by using a 1x scope? What would the point be?

I have a week left in my late muzzy season, and as soon as the season is over, I'm putting this Williams set up on my Thompson Black Diamond XR. They claim it'll make a gun accurate to 200yards.

https://shop.williamsgunsight.com/ecommerce/p/wgrs--western-precision-muzzleloading-set-676584

I guess I don't understand the whole non-magnified scope thing, either way pro or con.
Only advantage i see is the ability to adjust the focus.

 :yeah:  Theres nothing to gain but focus.

And the ability for a Bdc reticle or dialing turret. Even at 0 magnification dialing is a big plus, I have seen videos of guys rock busting at 500 with the Gunwerks dial peep and LR muzz setups
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 14, 2021, 11:14:42 AM
OK, so call me ignorant, but I guess I don't understand what advantage you'd gain by using a 1x scope? What would the point be?

I have a week left in my late muzzy season, and as soon as the season is over, I'm putting this Williams set up on my Thompson Black Diamond XR. They claim it'll make a gun accurate to 200yards.

https://shop.williamsgunsight.com/ecommerce/p/wgrs--western-precision-muzzleloading-set-676584

I guess I don't understand the whole non-magnified scope thing, either way pro or con.
Only advantage i see is the ability to adjust the focus.

 :yeah:  Theres nothing to gain but focus.

And the ability for a Bdc reticle or dialing turret. Even at 0 magnification dialing is a big plus, I have seen videos of guys rock busting at 500 with the Gunwerks dial peep and LR muzz setups
Only options I've seen for a 1x scope other than a red dot or something were one from nikon and one from vortex, both are discontinued and impossible to find.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: buckfvr on January 14, 2021, 11:31:17 AM
Ya, can you show us a 1x scope with turrets or bdc reticle please ?    :dunno:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: pd on January 14, 2021, 11:32:25 AM
OK, so call me ignorant, but I guess I don't understand what advantage you'd gain by using a 1x scope? What would the point be?

I have a week left in my late muzzy season, and as soon as the season is over, I'm putting this Williams set up on my Thompson Black Diamond XR. They claim it'll make a gun accurate to 200yards.

https://shop.williamsgunsight.com/ecommerce/p/wgrs--western-precision-muzzleloading-set-676584

I guess I don't understand the whole non-magnified scope thing, either way pro or con.
Only advantage i see is the ability to adjust the focus.

 :yeah:  Theres nothing to gain but focus.

 :yeah:

I don't know anything about turrets and BDC and such.  For me it would be focus improvement only.  Much ado about nothing.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 14, 2021, 11:35:04 AM
Ya, can you show us a 1x scope with turrets or bdc reticle please ?    :dunno:
show me a 1x scope without electronics period  :dunno: with new laws come new innovation.  When this passes, the optics industry will respond.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: pd on January 14, 2021, 11:42:36 AM
Ya, can you show us a 1x scope with turrets or bdc reticle please ?    :dunno:
show me a 1x scope without electronics period  :dunno: with new laws come new innovation.  When this passes, the optics industry will respond.

Karl, nobody disagrees with your points.  You (and many others here) are far more experienced with rifles than many of us (myself included).  You all see this proposal as the leak in the dam, that eventually collapses the reservoir.  But what many of us are saying is simply this: Even if/when the optics industry responds, and makes a super-duper ML-ready scope, it will still be just 1x in magnification.  Call me the ignorant one (you won't get an argument about that from me), but I just don't see how a $300 to $500 fancy scope @ 1x is going to destroy muzzleloader hunting as we know it.

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: buckfvr on January 14, 2021, 11:48:11 AM
Ya, can you show us a 1x scope with turrets or bdc reticle please ?    :dunno:
show me a 1x scope without electronics period  :dunno: with new laws come new innovation.  When this passes, the optics industry will respond.

Do you really think the optics industry is going to respond for washingtons miniscule muzzle loader hunt  :o   
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mtnwalker on January 14, 2021, 12:08:07 PM
Didn't somebody in this thread already contact Vortex about it who said they'd be happy to put one into production?

I'm sure this has already been said multiple times in this thread but I'll leave off with this. I liken this whole thing to when guys started adding sliding pins to their bows. At the time it was fringe, and it was fun to practice out to 90 or even 100. I remember thinking, "sure pounding targets at 100 is entertaining but good luck ever killing an animal way out there." Fast forward to now, and I work with multiple guys who regularly take game outside of 120 with their bows. Now I don't condone that in any way, in fact it drives me nuts when they talk about it. But just because it's not in my person wheelhouse doesn't mean it isn't now happening on a regular basis.

If you don't think that this will increase efficacy and lead to higher harvest and more lead in more animals, then I think you have your head in the clouds. Think of it like a balance scale, on one end you have hunter efficacy and the other you have opportunity. When one goes up, the other goes down. Period.  :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 14, 2021, 12:12:52 PM
Ya, can you show us a 1x scope with turrets or bdc reticle please ?    :dunno:
show me a 1x scope without electronics period  :dunno: with new laws come new innovation.  When this passes, the optics industry will respond.

Do you really think the optics industry is going to respond for washingtons miniscule muzzle loader hunt  :o
This is my thoughts as well, I don't see optic companies tripping over each other to produce a 1x scope because washington ok'd it for muzzleloaders.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 14, 2021, 12:13:28 PM
Ya, can you show us a 1x scope with turrets or bdc reticle please ?    :dunno:
show me a 1x scope without electronics period  :dunno: with new laws come new innovation.  When this passes, the optics industry will respond.

Do you really think the optics industry is going to respond for washingtons miniscule muzzle loader hunt  :o

They did for utah when utah had the same rule.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: headshot5 on January 14, 2021, 12:14:27 PM
Didn't somebody in this thread already contact Vortex about it who said they'd be happy to put one into production?


Yeah someone mentioned that earlier in the thread.

It should be noted that Vortex also previously made a crossfire II in 1x24. So they have manufactured them before this time. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 14, 2021, 12:31:01 PM
Didn't somebody in this thread already contact Vortex about it who said they'd be happy to put one into production?


Yeah someone mentioned that earlier in the thread.

It should be noted that Vortex also previously made a crossfire II in 1x24. So they have manufactured them before this time.
This is correct, but good luck finding one.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 14, 2021, 12:36:43 PM
Ya, can you show us a 1x scope with turrets or bdc reticle please ?    :dunno:
show me a 1x scope without electronics period  :dunno: with new laws come new innovation.  When this passes, the optics industry will respond.

Do you really think the optics industry is going to respond for washingtons miniscule muzzle loader hunt  :o

They did for utah when utah had the same rule.
  this 100%. The industry absolutely will do just this.  There is about to be a whole bunch of folks shopping for a new 1x optic. Why would they not tune up a new scope to meet that demand.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 14, 2021, 12:46:34 PM
Also vortex has in the past customized existing scopes to be 1x. I know of a member here who used a 1x vortex pst on a utah hunt a few years ago. Im assuming they would continue that as well.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bobcat on January 14, 2021, 12:57:40 PM
Leupold probably would since they're in Oregon just across the river from Washington.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 14, 2021, 01:13:45 PM
Does anyone have a number on how many muzzleloader hunters are in Washington?  It seems to be split about 50/50 on who would or wouldn't use a scope.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 14, 2021, 01:29:01 PM
Does anyone have a number on how many muzzleloader hunters are in Washington?  It seems to be split about 50/50 on who would or wouldn't use a scope.
I think you are a bit off there. I absolutely don't want scopes in muzzleloader but if it passes ill be putting one on and I think most others who appose the idea would at well. Id love to get rid of inlines as well but im sure not gonna intentionally hamstring myself just because. I love muzzleloading for the seasons and opportunities (just like archery), not for the love of a more primitive weapon. I wanna keep those seasons and opportunities.  As technology advances with these primitive weapons, opportunities diminish  :twocents:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: buckfvr on January 14, 2021, 01:36:40 PM
Ill be mostly surprised if a new line of 1x scopes hit the market (all be it pleasantly), however I dont advocate for it neither will I knowingly put myself at an unnecessary disadvantage.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 14, 2021, 01:42:04 PM
Does anyone have a number on how many muzzleloader hunters are in Washington?  It seems to be split about 50/50 on who would or wouldn't use a scope.
I think you are a bit off there. I absolutely don't want scopes in muzzleloader but if it passes ill be putting one on and I think most others who appose the idea would at well. Id love to get rid of inlines as well but im sure not gonna intentionally hamstring myself just because. I love muzzleloading for the seasons and opportunities (just like archery), not for the love of a more primitive weapon. I wanna keep those seasons and opportunities.  As technology advances with these primitive weapons, opportunities diminish  :twocents:
I'm surprised that being so against it you would use one if it passes, if you cant beat them join them i guess.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 14, 2021, 01:44:49 PM
How did the last reply not clear that up for you?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 14, 2021, 02:41:06 PM
How did the last reply not clear that up for you?
Because I'm not going to do something  idont agree with just because its ok to do so.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 14, 2021, 03:18:48 PM
How did the last reply not clear that up for you?
Because I'm not going to do something  idont agree with just because its ok to do so.
did you not read my post? Its got nothing to do with tradition and everything to do with seasons. Muzzleloaders are the best seasons there is. That will change as optics enter the game.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 14, 2021, 03:34:51 PM
How did the last reply not clear that up for you?
Because I'm not going to do something  idont agree with just because its ok to do so.
did you not read my post? Its got nothing to do with tradition and everything to do with seasons. Muzzleloaders are the best seasons there is. That will change as optics enter the game.
Yes I read your post, and I respect your opinion,  I also wasn't trying  to get in an argument just because I don't agree with you on this topic. My point is if something I don't agree with is ok I'm not going to do it .
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Alan K on January 14, 2021, 05:00:56 PM
I think you are a bit off there. I absolutely don't want scopes in muzzleloader but if it passes ill be putting one on and I think most others who appose the idea would at well. Id love to get rid of inlines as well but im sure not gonna intentionally hamstring myself just because. I love muzzleloading for the seasons and opportunities (just like archery), not for the love of a more primitive weapon. I wanna keep those seasons and opportunities.  As technology advances with these primitive weapons, opportunities diminish  :twocents:

Bingo, same boat I'm in. The only problem is WDFW won't trim seasons back, and game populations will continue downward.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Alan K on January 14, 2021, 05:13:10 PM
There were roughly 14k muzzleloader elk tags sold in 2019 in WA. Say even just 25% would buy a scope. That's 3500 scopes, made in China for $150, sold here for $350, 30% taxes, a scope manufacturer would be looking at $140 margins. That's nearly 500k for the company that makes one.  The only extra cost in R&D would be the engineer sitting on the computer for a day or two removing the magnification from one of their existing scope bodies. Why wouldn't a company make the leap?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 253shotgunner on January 14, 2021, 05:31:56 PM
21 pages? Is that some kind of record for scopes on muzzies?  8)
Make 1x scopes legal on muzzies and they will be back on the market:
Thompson Center Rifle Scope 1X32Mm, 1" Tube, Matte Black
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000JP4K4S/?coliid=IDWHN9EXAI55M&colid=35DDBR50MXREO&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Limhangerslayer on January 14, 2021, 06:28:36 PM
There were roughly 14k muzzleloader elk tags sold in 2019 in WA. Say even just 25% would buy a scope. That's 3500 scopes, made in China for $150, sold here for $350, 30% taxes, a scope manufacturer would be looking at $140 margins. That's nearly 500k for the company that makes one.  The only extra cost in R&D would be the engineer sitting on the computer for a day or two removing the magnification from one of their existing scope bodies. Why wouldn't a company make the leap?
thereís no R&D needed, Utah had the 1x season and vortex has a scope already. Just out of stock.  If it becomes legal they will push them out afterwards.  There are lots of red dots to use.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Wizekrakr on January 14, 2021, 07:40:45 PM
There were roughly 14k muzzleloader elk tags sold in 2019 in WA. Say even just 25% would buy a scope. That's 3500 scopes, made in China for $150, sold here for $350, 30% taxes, a scope manufacturer would be looking at $140 margins. That's nearly 500k for the company that makes one.  The only extra cost in R&D would be the engineer sitting on the computer for a day or two removing the magnification from one of their existing scope bodies. Why wouldn't a company make the leap?
thereís no R&D needed, Utah had the 1x season and vortex has a scope already. Just out of stock.  If it becomes legal they will push them out afterwards.  There are lots of red dots to use.

Current Regs say it is unlawful to have any electrical device or equipment attached to a muzzle loader.  That would include Red dot scopes.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Limhangerslayer on January 14, 2021, 07:46:30 PM
There were roughly 14k muzzleloader elk tags sold in 2019 in WA. Say even just 25% would buy a scope. That's 3500 scopes, made in China for $150, sold here for $350, 30% taxes, a scope manufacturer would be looking at $140 margins. That's nearly 500k for the company that makes one.  The only extra cost in R&D would be the engineer sitting on the computer for a day or two removing the magnification from one of their existing scope bodies. Why wouldn't a company make the leap?
thereís no R&D needed, Utah had the 1x season and vortex has a scope already. Just out of stock.  If it becomes legal they will push them out afterwards.  There are lots of red dots to use.

Current Regs say it is unlawful to have any electrical device or equipment attached to a muzzle loader.  That would include Red dot scopes.
:dunno: wasnít talking about current regs?  And neither was this thread
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Wizekrakr on January 14, 2021, 08:00:17 PM
There are 7  scope makers that I can find that once made a 1x scope that muzzle loader hunters used in the states that have legalized it.  Thompson Center, Nikon, Weaver, Sightron, Traditions, Vortex and Nightforce.   All have been discontinued.  Except for Nightforce none sold for more that $149 that I can find.  Finding one online today is next to impossible.  If this rule is approved by the department, I agree it will not make any difference in game harvest or hunter crowding. It will be rare to see a muzzle loader hunter in the field with a scope on their rifle.  And I too doubt that any of those scope companies will ramp up their 1x scope operations just for Washington state.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Wizekrakr on January 14, 2021, 08:03:51 PM
There were roughly 14k muzzleloader elk tags sold in 2019 in WA. Say even just 25% would buy a scope. That's 3500 scopes, made in China for $150, sold here for $350, 30% taxes, a scope manufacturer would be looking at $140 margins. That's nearly 500k for the company that makes one.  The only extra cost in R&D would be the engineer sitting on the computer for a day or two removing the magnification from one of their existing scope bodies. Why wouldn't a company make the leap?
thereís no R&D needed, Utah had the 1x season and vortex has a scope already. Just out of stock.  If it becomes legal they will push them out afterwards.  There are lots of red dots to use.
So what indication do you have that the department will do away with the electrical device prohibition that is in THE CURRENT REGS if they decide to approve 1x scopes? The answer is none.
Current Regs say it is unlawful to have any electrical device or equipment attached to a muzzle loader.  That would include Red dot scopes.
:dunno: wasnít talking about current regs?  And neither was this thread
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on January 14, 2021, 09:21:21 PM
 :rolleyes: 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Limhangerslayer on January 14, 2021, 10:07:58 PM
There are 7  scope makers that I can find that once made a 1x scope that muzzle loader hunters used in the states that have legalized it.  Thompson Center, Nikon, Weaver, Sightron, Traditions, Vortex and Nightforce.   All have been discontinued.  Except for Nightforce none sold for more that $149 that I can find.  Finding one online today is next to impossible.  If this rule is approved by the department, I agree it will not make any difference in game harvest or hunter crowding. It will be rare to see a muzzle loader hunter in the field with a scope on their rifle.  And I too doubt that any of those scope companies will ramp up their 1x scope operations just for Washington state.
lmao, check into it.  Vortex built one for Utah when they had a 1x restriction. They havenít had one for a couple years.  Demand is down they quit making them.  If Washington okís it they have another market.  Game on!!?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 15, 2021, 01:37:59 PM
There were roughly 14k muzzleloader elk tags sold in 2019 in WA. Say even just 25% would buy a scope. That's 3500 scopes, made in China for $150, sold here for $350, 30% taxes, a scope manufacturer would be looking at $140 margins. That's nearly 500k for the company that makes one.  The only extra cost in R&D would be the engineer sitting on the computer for a day or two removing the magnification from one of their existing scope bodies. Why wouldn't a company make the leap?
Your numbers way off,  your retail number is double of the suggested retail for the vortex scope.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 15, 2021, 01:39:34 PM
https://vortexoptics.com/vortex-crossfire-ii-1x24-muzzleloader-riflescope.html
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 15, 2021, 01:51:45 PM
There are 7  scope makers that I can find that once made a 1x scope that muzzle loader hunters used in the states that have legalized it.  Thompson Center, Nikon, Weaver, Sightron, Traditions, Vortex and Nightforce.   All have been discontinued.  Except for Nightforce none sold for more that $149 that I can find.  Finding one online today is next to impossible.  If this rule is approved by the department, I agree it will not make any difference in game harvest or hunter crowding. It will be rare to see a muzzle loader hunter in the field with a scope on their rifle.  And I too doubt that any of those scope companies will ramp up their 1x scope operations just for Washington state.
Interestingly enough, I googled 1x scopes and found a Tradition 1x for $59. I bought it just in case.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 15, 2021, 02:01:39 PM
There are 7  scope makers that I can find that once made a 1x scope that muzzle loader hunters used in the states that have legalized it.  Thompson Center, Nikon, Weaver, Sightron, Traditions, Vortex and Nightforce.   All have been discontinued.  Except for Nightforce none sold for more that $149 that I can find.  Finding one online today is next to impossible.  If this rule is approved by the department, I agree it will not make any difference in game harvest or hunter crowding. It will be rare to see a muzzle loader hunter in the field with a scope on their rifle.  And I too doubt that any of those scope companies will ramp up their 1x scope operations just for Washington state.
Interestingly enough, I googled 1x scopes and found a Tradition 1x for $59. I bought it just in case.
Thanks Bob,  looks like I got the last one.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 15, 2021, 02:09:35 PM
Bob or tenkara can one or both of you install the scope on your muzzy and shoot for accuracy once you receive it? That would give us all on this thread a bit of data to support or disprove the accuracy claims. Maybe try shooting at extended ranges if you can also.  :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 15, 2021, 02:12:31 PM
Bob or tenkara can one or both of you install the scope on your muzzy and shoot for accuracy once you receive it? That would give us all on this thread a bit of data to support or disprove the accuracy claims. Maybe try shooting at extended ranges if you can also.  :tup:
You bet.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 15, 2021, 03:18:34 PM
Bob or tenkara can one or both of you install the scope on your muzzy and shoot for accuracy once you receive it? That would give us all on this thread a bit of data to support or disprove the accuracy claims. Maybe try shooting at extended ranges if you can also.  :tup:
Sure, unless I sell it first for $350.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 15, 2021, 04:03:58 PM
Bob or tenkara can one or both of you install the scope on your muzzy and shoot for accuracy once you receive it? That would give us all on this thread a bit of data to support or disprove the accuracy claims. Maybe try shooting at extended ranges if you can also.  :tup:
Sure, unless I sell it first for $350.  :chuckle:

I'll take it!!!!!!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: pd on January 15, 2021, 04:05:53 PM
Bob or tenkara can one or both of you install the scope on your muzzy and shoot for accuracy once you receive it? That would give us all on this thread a bit of data to support or disprove the accuracy claims. Maybe try shooting at extended ranges if you can also.  :tup:

And see if you can shoot bullseyes at 500 yards.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 15, 2021, 04:48:01 PM
Bob or tenkara can one or both of you install the scope on your muzzy and shoot for accuracy once you receive it? That would give us all on this thread a bit of data to support or disprove the accuracy claims. Maybe try shooting at extended ranges if you can also.  :tup:
Sure, unless I sell it first for $350.  :chuckle:
:chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 15, 2021, 05:20:53 PM
Does anyone have a number on how many muzzleloader hunters are in Washington?  It seems to be split about 50/50 on who would or wouldn't use a scope.

I really donít want scopes allowed. But Iím 100% putting one on my guns if it passes. So will most everyone and all the new guys joining the muzzy club.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 15, 2021, 05:27:14 PM
When will we know if this passes?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Wizekrakr on January 15, 2021, 07:16:09 PM
The commission meets in March to vote on all of the 2021 thru 2023 proposals
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: paguy on January 15, 2021, 08:04:46 PM
Does anyone have a number on how many muzzleloader hunters are in Washington?  It seems to be split about 50/50 on who would or wouldn't use a scope.

I really donít want scopes allowed. But Iím 100% putting one on my guns if it passes. So will most everyone and all the new guys joining the muzzy club.
I have never hunted muzzy, But me and a dozen freinds are going to as soon as they make muzzy's 200 yard guns. Can't wait. The number one reason I hear most guy's don't muzzy hunt for elk is I can't get out and chase them any more. Well now if they get rid of those pesky open sights and let us use fine cross hairs so we can shoot 200 yards and still see are target, we will join in on all the early rut fun. It's not rocket science.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: paguy on January 15, 2021, 08:25:44 PM
If you started muzzy hunting elk to get away from all the crowd's, You might want to sight that old elk rifle of yours in.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 15, 2021, 08:34:24 PM
Have another drink.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: paguy on January 15, 2021, 08:41:40 PM
Have another drink.
Sorry, Don't touch the stuff.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 15, 2021, 09:23:51 PM
Does anyone have a number on how many muzzleloader hunters are in Washington?  It seems to be split about 50/50 on who would or wouldn't use a scope.

I really donít want scopes allowed. But Iím 100% putting one on my guns if it passes. So will most everyone and all the new guys joining the muzzy club.
I have never hunted muzzy, But me and a dozen freinds are going to as soon as they make muzzy's 200 yard guns. Can't wait. The number one reason I hear most guy's don't muzzy hunt for elk is I can't get out and chase them any more. Well now if they get rid of those pesky open sights and let us use fine cross hairs so we can shoot 200 yards and still see are target, we will join in on all the early rut fun. It's not rocket science.

Good.

Where I hunt we need a few more guys to keep the elk moving.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on January 16, 2021, 03:19:28 PM
Does anyone have a number on how many muzzleloader hunters are in Washington?  It seems to be split about 50/50 on who would or wouldn't use a scope.

I really donít want scopes allowed. But Iím 100% putting one on my guns if it passes. So will most everyone and all the new guys joining the muzzy club.
I have never hunted muzzy, But me and a dozen freinds are going to as soon as they make muzzy's 200 yard guns. Can't wait. The number one reason I hear most guy's don't muzzy hunt for elk is I can't get out and chase them any more. Well now if they get rid of those pesky open sights and let us use fine cross hairs so we can shoot 200 yards and still see are target, we will join in on all the early rut fun. It's not rocket science.

They already are 200 yard guns with practice
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mr Mykiss on January 16, 2021, 06:04:18 PM
This is my target for 200yds. With a peep the best I can do is line up my orange thingie with the very top of my bead...at 200yds it looks like a teeny tiny sliver and the best I can do is try and keep it dead center on the tippy top of my bead and squeeze. I feel like a deviation of a hair at that distance and my bullet is off 6Ē or so and there ainít nothin I can do about it. I have to think that with a 1x scope it would be easier. Maybe not. Who knows. I figure that I can hit a pie plate at 200 so Iím good to 500 anyways.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 16, 2021, 06:32:41 PM
This is my target for 200yds. With a peep the best I can do is line up my orange thingie with the very top of my bead...at 200yds it looks like a teeny tiny sliver and the best I can do is try and keep it dead center on the tippy top of my bead and squeeze. I feel like a deviation of a hair at that distance and my bullet is off 6Ē or so and there ainít nothin I can do about it. I have to think that with a 1x scope it would be easier. Maybe not. Who knows. I figure that I can hit a pie plate at 200 so Iím good to 500 anyways.
I'm assuming that's off a bench, correct?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BOOM!! on January 17, 2021, 10:21:40 AM
Bob and Tenkara, I bought the same scope, the Traditions 1x32 for 59.00. The very few reviews I found are positive for the most part. What worries me is that it only has 3 inches of eye relief. Mine arrived already and it seems to be a good scope
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 17, 2021, 10:29:21 AM
Bob and Tenkara, I bought the same scope, the Traditions 1x32 for 59.00. The very few reviews I found are positive for the most part. What worries me is that it only has 3 inches of eye relief. Mine arrived already and it seems to be a good scope
Given that it's 1x is should have a wide field of view? Could you look through it from 3.5 inches away and ignore the black ring around the edges of view?

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 17, 2021, 12:17:27 PM
Bob and Tenkara, I bought the same scope, the Traditions 1x32 for 59.00. The very few reviews I found are positive for the most part. What worries me is that it only has 3 inches of eye relief. Mine arrived already and it seems to be a good scope

Where did you get it?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BOOM!! on January 17, 2021, 01:47:48 PM
Bob and Tenkara, I bought the same scope, the Traditions 1x32 for 59.00. The very few reviews I found are positive for the most part. What worries me is that it only has 3 inches of eye relief. Mine arrived already and it seems to be a good scope
Given that it's 1x is should have a wide field of view? Could you look through it from 3.5 inches away and ignore the black ring around the edges of view?


Holding it up towards my eye l had my son-in-law measure the sweet spot which seems to be 3.25 inches. There is not much wiggle room, maybe .25 inch. If you can handle some gradual distortion around the objective lens you can increase the relief to almost 4 inches
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BOOM!! on January 17, 2021, 01:50:01 PM
Bob and Tenkara, I bought the same scope, the Traditions 1x32 for 59.00. The very few reviews I found are positive for the most part. What worries me is that it only has 3 inches of eye relief. Mine arrived already and it seems to be a good scope

Where did you get it?

They are showing sold out now
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 17, 2021, 03:34:35 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BigTines on January 17, 2021, 04:15:43 PM
There are 1x scopes to be found with some looking. I just bought a brand new Vortex 1x Crossfire II.  Crystal clear glass very impressed.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: metlhead on January 17, 2021, 07:43:45 PM
I quit the primitive muzzleloader season many years back due to the large increase in hunters. I believe that was in large part because the availability of increasingly lethal inlines. Question is, if we want to revert back to the spirit of the season, where is the cutoff on technology? Every gun seems a technological advance over it's predecessor.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BreezyBear on January 17, 2021, 08:11:13 PM
One of those Vortex 1x scopes just sold for $232 on Ebay
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 18, 2021, 05:31:25 PM
I quit the primitive muzzleloader season many years back due to the large increase in hunters. I believe that was in large part because the availability of increasingly lethal inlines. Question is, if we want to revert back to the spirit of the season, where is the cutoff on technology? Every gun seems a technological advance over it's predecessor.

Scopes. Scopes are the cut off. All the rest is just another way to go boom.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 18, 2021, 06:15:00 PM
I quit the primitive muzzleloader season many years back due to the large increase in hunters. I believe that was in large part because the availability of increasingly lethal inlines. Question is, if we want to revert back to the spirit of the season, where is the cutoff on technology? Every gun seems a technological advance over it's predecessor.

That is THE question. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 19, 2021, 03:23:25 PM
Well, my super duper $59 1x scope arrived today!

When I first looked through it I was disappointed. It actually seemed like the image was less than 1x. I couldn't see much value in using it in distances over 50 to 75 yards. Then the light went on and I realized I was was looking through it backwards. :chuckle:

Once I got it turned around, I realized that it is actually a little more than 1x: maybe 1.5x. The image through the scope is slightly larger than the naked eye sees. The scope does read "1x32" right on it, so I assume it would be legal.

I don't think there's much doubt in my mind that it is a rather significant improvement in the ability to sight.  At distances up to 150 yards on deer and maybe 200 yards on elk I would be quite confident taking a shot, nothing else not detracting.

It's a game changer.

Next stop the range.

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Buckhunter24 on January 19, 2021, 04:33:12 PM
Maybe we can have a longer season if all muzzleloaders require a 0.5x scope..  :peep:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 19, 2021, 08:40:10 PM
Maybe we can have a longer season if all muzzleloaders require a 0.5x scope..  :peep:

A negative power scope lol
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 19, 2021, 08:43:20 PM
Maybe we can have a longer season if all muzzleloaders require a 0.5x scope..  :peep:

A negative power scope lol
Just have to wear 20x glasses to go with your scope. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 20, 2021, 06:18:36 AM
Maybe we can have a longer season if all muzzleloaders require a 0.5x scope..  :peep:

A negative power scope lol
Just have to wear 20x glasses to go with your scope.
will my 2x Costco cheaters help?  :'(
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 20, 2021, 01:47:27 PM
Iím ready.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Stein on January 20, 2021, 01:55:33 PM
Maybe we can have a longer season if all muzzleloaders require a 0.5x scope..  :peep:

A negative power scope lol

 Maybe this?

Scopes of any magnification are allowed, provided they are mounted backwards on the rifle.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 20, 2021, 02:13:31 PM
Maybe we can have a longer season if all muzzleloaders require a 0.5x scope..  :peep:

A negative power scope lol

 Maybe this?

Scopes of any magnification are allowed, provided they are mounted backwards on the rifle.
:chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: vandeman17 on January 20, 2021, 02:16:00 PM
Maybe we can have a longer season if all muzzleloaders require a 0.5x scope..  :peep:

A negative power scope lol

 Maybe this?

Scopes of any magnification are allowed, provided they are mounted backwards on the rifle.

sounds like the side mirrors on my truck
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jstone on January 20, 2021, 02:26:06 PM
When is the vote
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: sagemd on January 20, 2021, 03:42:28 PM
I have read multiple post on this thread about "primitive weapon season".
Washington as never had a "primitive weapon season" that I'm know of!!
Where did that idea come from.
Hasn't always been a muzzleloader and archery season?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: sagemd on January 20, 2021, 03:47:33 PM
"And people in Washington wonder why our seasons suck, and the game is dwindling."

Most of the "people of Washington" don't wonder why our seasons suck and game is dwindling.

We know it's because of wolves, cougars, bears, winter range, migratory routes.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on January 20, 2021, 06:46:21 PM
I have read multiple post on this thread about "primitive weapon season".
Washington as never had a "primitive weapon season" that I'm know of!!
Where did that idea come from.
Hasn't always been a muzzleloader and archery season?
Because that's what archery and muzzleloader seasons are called by many game Departments in other states .Where the hunting is better than Washington. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Now what about the many posts on this topic about a persons eye sight and there ability to hunt.
Maybe I want my scope,range finder,and lazer sight on my bow ,my eyes are bad 😉 😉 😉.I'm getting a little old here since we are give ,take,take,take these days I'm gonna need multi season deer and elk ,with every advantage attached to my weapons.
Pretty Please.🤔
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 21, 2021, 10:46:09 AM
Fancy new scope showed up yesterday,  it does seem to have a tiny bit of magnification, I think it will definitely tighten my groups up but not sure if it will extend my comfort range any further until I get a chance to try it. Also can see why Bob looked thru it backwards,  I almost did the same lol.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jstone on January 21, 2021, 11:16:16 AM
Did the GREAT Fred Bear use sights???
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on January 21, 2021, 11:50:08 AM
Did he use a muzzleloader?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: sagemd on January 21, 2021, 07:36:23 PM
I have read multiple post on this thread about "primitive weapon season".
Washington as never had a "primitive weapon season" that I'm know of!!
Where did that idea come from.
Hasn't always been a muzzleloader and archery season?
Because that's what archery and muzzleloader seasons are called by many game Departments in other states .Where the hunting is better than Washington. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Now what about the many posts on this topic about a persons eye sight and there ability to hunt.
Maybe I want my scope,range finder,and lazer sight on my bow ,my eyes are bad 😉 😉 😉.I'm getting a little old here since we are give ,take,take,take these days I'm gonna need multi season deer and elk ,with every advantage attached to my weapons.
Pretty Please.🤔
Which states "game departments"  (most are now fish and wildlife departments)  do you mean?  Oregon, Montana, Wyoming, Nevada, Utah, Arizona (That is all I checked) have no "primitive weapon season. Only Muzzleloader and archery.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Stein on January 21, 2021, 07:41:20 PM
Montana has a muzzy season?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 21, 2021, 08:18:36 PM
I'm just hoping that Biden gives us all free government 1X scopes.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 21, 2021, 09:14:18 PM
I'm just hoping that Biden gives us all free government 1X scopes.

They will be made in China and the glass will be as foggy as his mind.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: duckmen1 on January 21, 2021, 09:32:28 PM
Did the GREAT Fred Bear use sights???
Are you Fred Bear? Or are any of these members Fred bear? :chuckle:

That's alright. Deer just come running too me. And yes I practice and well let's just say my deer drop. Lol
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on January 21, 2021, 10:11:30 PM
I have read multiple post on this thread about "primitive weapon season".
Washington as never had a "primitive weapon season" that I'm know of!!
Where did that idea come from.
Hasn't always been a muzzleloader and archery season?
Because that's what archery and muzzleloader seasons are called by many game Departments in other states .Where the hunting is better than Washington. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Now what about the many posts on this topic about a persons eye sight and there ability to hunt.
Maybe I want my scope,range finder,and lazer sight on my bow ,my eyes are bad 😉 😉 😉.I'm getting a little old here since we are give ,take,take,take these days I'm gonna need multi season deer and elk ,with every advantage attached to my weapons.
Pretty Please.🤔
Which states "game departments"  (most are now fish and wildlife departments)  do you mean?  Oregon, Montana, Wyoming, Nevada, Utah, Arizona (That is all I checked) have no "primitive weapon season. Only Muzzleloader and archery.
From New Mexico to Florida and some states along the east coast of the country.
Is the hunting better ,I don't really know.
What is the definition of a primative weapon
A rock
Speer
Long bow or archery
Muzzleloader
Not sure maybe yours is different might be interesting to hear it.
Ask yourself why is archery season so long.More primative than muzzy ,maybe less harvest rates. :dunno:
But when scopes attract more people to your side of the pasture don't expect to play the primative weapon card when your season get shorter.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 22, 2021, 01:02:55 AM
Montana has a muzzy season?

No, there is Archery and any weapon season ... The last two years Iíve shot bucks with a shotgun slug during any weapon season.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 22, 2021, 06:18:38 AM
Pics :dunno:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: sagemd on January 22, 2021, 08:40:22 PM
I "think" that we don't have primitive weapon season because it would be difficult to define a "primitive weapon" Spear, sling, long bow ??
Allot of places don't allow hunting with spears.
Archery season is longer because they have been better at lobbing/being involved in the process.

"Montana has a muzzy season?"
I was trying to state Montana doesn't have primitive weapon season.
Most if not all western state have no primitive weapon season. Would have been a better way for me to state that.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: NRA4LIFE on January 22, 2021, 08:55:41 PM
Dude, put down the peace pipe.  And unless it's your name, learn how to spell chief.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: pd on January 22, 2021, 09:20:27 PM
....locked thread coming in 3...2...

Seriously guys, there is no resolution to this debate.  It sure seems like the Commission (before the new membership, however) was set to approve this, based upon the department's recommendation.  Who knows what will happen??

It won't be the end of the world.  Let's cool down just a bit.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jackelope on January 22, 2021, 10:22:57 PM
One guy is banned. Thatís likely all thatís needed.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: KFhunter on January 22, 2021, 10:26:44 PM
tag  /sigh 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Rainier10 on January 23, 2021, 12:04:45 AM
 :hello:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on January 23, 2021, 09:41:36 AM
 Dang... the mods all show up... something went down and I missed it.   :dunno:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: h20hunter on January 23, 2021, 09:43:46 AM
I can summarize post.....

Blah blah bash members with child like post blah blah I've had a few pops blah blah this post will not last long blah blah look at me everyone.


Wish was granted...post gone,  ban hammer swung.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on January 23, 2021, 09:50:39 AM
I can summarize post.....

Blah blah bash members with child like post blah blah I've had a few pops blah blah this post will not last long blah blah look at me everyone.


Wish was granted...post gone,  ban hammer swung.

 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on January 23, 2021, 09:54:29 AM
I'm still here ,wow.
I missed the ban hammer 🔨 again
I'll be quiet now
Bye Bye
 :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 23, 2021, 10:14:43 AM
I can summarize post.....

Blah blah bash members with child like post blah blah I've had a few pops blah blah this post will not last long blah blah look at me everyone.


Wish was granted...post gone,  ban hammer swung.

 :chuckle: thatís pretty much spot on, A problem child for a long time and tried Again with a new screen name good job Jakelope For catching it!  :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: h20hunter on January 23, 2021, 10:52:27 AM
It's actually very helpful for the mod team....

Posts that begin with or include " this post won't last long" "will likely get me banned" " is against the rules but needs to be said"....  It will, so don't post.

Posts that are childish name calling to members, mods, the forum....whatever....are simply not worth posting.  Do people really feel big and mighty,  sticking it to the man......to behave like a child? Really? News plash.....we (mods) really don't care. Our feelings are not hurt, no damage is done,  you accomplished nothing other than looking the fool and playing the part.

So yeah....if you are that guy or that gal, please....make those posts and really,  swing for the fence! Don't dilly dally in the gray area....let both barrels go baby! That makes it far easier....no long mod discussion,  no should we act or did we act to late or to soon.  None of that effort gets expended at all. Ban hammer pow boom one and done baby!

Carry on. :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 23, 2021, 11:30:09 AM
Ummmm.......

 I would like a scope on my muzzleloader, please.

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: h20hunter on January 23, 2021, 11:33:17 AM
That's enough outta you......sir.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: suga on January 23, 2021, 11:35:16 AM
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/tsgNNs93oIbwk/giphy.gif)
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/tsgNNs93oIbwk/giphy.gif)
Lots of emotion in this thread


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 23, 2021, 11:46:12 AM
That's enough outta you......sir.

LOL

Thank you (and the other mods) for keeping Hunt Wa great.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 23, 2021, 11:53:56 AM
Remember, all the weapons we use today will be primitive 200 years from now. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: KFhunter on January 23, 2021, 12:19:19 PM
Remember, all the weapons we use today will be primitive 200 years from now. :chuckle:

What weapons 200 years from now?  public won't be able to buy them, let alone hunt  :yike:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 23, 2021, 12:20:44 PM
Remember, all the weapons we use today will be primitive 200 years from now. :chuckle:

  :yeah:

But the only problem is there wonít be any animals in 200 years cause they wonít be able to last through the great scope debacle of 2021!  :sry:

 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Cougartail on January 23, 2021, 12:30:05 PM
Remember, all the weapons we use today will be primitive 200 years from now. :chuckle:

  :yeah:

But the only problem is there wonít be any animals in 200 years cause they wonít be able to last through the great scope debacle of 2021!  :sry:

 :chuckle:

There will be no animals left after the "Great Biden Depression" anyways. They will all end up on dinner tables and few will fall to a scoped muzzy! lol
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 23, 2021, 06:03:21 PM
I just wanna know when the hell i can get a lazer blaster. Trying to guess wind calls and stuff gets old. I want a true point and shoot weapon. Just sayin
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 23, 2021, 06:55:15 PM
handles the cooking too
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on January 23, 2021, 07:29:09 PM
I just wanna know when the hell i can get a lazer blaster. Trying to guess wind calls and stuff gets old. I want a true point and shoot weapon. Just sayin

Not to brag or anything, but I am pretty much a point and shoot weapon.

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: h20hunter on January 23, 2021, 07:34:00 PM
Karl you fool put down the pain killers, the schlitz, and Hand Models of 2021 Expose and get it right. Lazer blasters are so 2020.....You need a 2021 PewPew.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on January 23, 2021, 08:50:14 PM
Karl you fool put down the pain killers, the schlitz, and Hand Models of 2021 Expose and get it right. Lazer blasters are so 2020.....You need a 2021 PewPew.

I thought schlitz & pain killers is what got the last guy in trouble?  :peep:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on January 24, 2021, 08:59:18 AM
Karl you fool put down the pain killers, the schlitz, and Hand Models of 2021 Expose and get it right. Lazer blasters are so 2020.....You need a 2021 PewPew.

I thought schlitz & pain killers is what got the last guy in trouble?  :peep:

Agreed l, ban h20 moderator for the drug references please.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: KFhunter on January 24, 2021, 10:02:14 AM
Karl you fool put down the pain killers, the schlitz, and Hand Models of 2021 Expose and get it right. Lazer blasters are so 2020.....You need a 2021 PewPew.

I thought schlitz & pain killers is what got the last guy in trouble?  :peep:

Agreed l, ban h20 moderator for the drug references please.
4m rulz are for thee, not for me




Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on January 24, 2021, 01:14:57 PM
I bet this goes fast.
.
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,257290.msg3491302.html#msg3491302 (https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,257290.msg3491302.html#msg3491302)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: full choke on January 24, 2021, 01:18:13 PM
I bet this goes fast.
.
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,257290.msg3491302.html#msg3491302 (https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,257290.msg3491302.html#msg3491302)

Only if you have zero faith in our WDFW and their ability to do the right thing...

You are correct- it will go fast.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: heavyhorned on February 03, 2021, 02:55:56 PM
ok so i will throw my thoughts in on this. i have hunted off and on with a .50 inline muzzle loader with true glow peep sites. i turn 49 in a week and yes i wear glasses. i am very far sighted. i have a hard time focusing on thing close up so i went to peep sites to help. i have never taken a elk or deer more than 125 yrds with my muzzle loader till this year. i took a shot at 201 yrds. i had a late season any buck tag and there was 8 in of crusty snow. no way was i able to get closer. all i could think about when i leveled the gun on the buck was will it even make it there? will it even have the velocity to make a clean kill? i use 250g with 90 grains of powder. i guess my thinking is even if i put a 1x scope on my muzzle loader will it really make it shoot further? i know after i have shot three times i can not hit a pick up at 50yrds till i run a rod down and a cleaner patch. then i am good for three more shots. will the 1x make my muzzle loader able to fire 6 times before cleaning it again to hit the target? i dont think so. i dont think it will make me or my muzzle loader feel like a snipper checking the wind for drift and the curvature of the earth for gravitational drop. all i see it helping is me being able to actually focuse on the animal for a clean kill and thats what counts.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: pd on February 03, 2021, 04:07:28 PM
ok so i will throw my thoughts in on this. i have hunted off and on with a .50 inline muzzle loader with true glow peep sites. i turn 49 in a week and yes i wear glasses. i am very far sighted. i have a hard time focusing on thing close up so i went to peep sites to help. i have never taken a elk or deer more than 125 yrds with my muzzle loader till this year. i took a shot at 201 yrds. i had a late season any buck tag and there was 8 in of crusty snow. no way was i able to get closer. all i could think about when i leveled the gun on the buck was will it even make it there? will it even have the velocity to make a clean kill? i use 250g with 90 grains of powder. i guess my thinking is even if i put a 1x scope on my muzzle loader will it really make it shoot further? i know after i have shot three times i can not hit a pick up at 50yrds till i run a rod down and a cleaner patch. then i am good for three more shots. will the 1x make my muzzle loader able to fire 6 times before cleaning it again to hit the target? i dont think so. i dont think it will make me or my muzzle loader feel like a snipper checking the wind for drift and the curvature of the earth for gravitational drop. all i see it helping is me being able to actually focuse on the animal for a clean kill and thats what counts.

Well stated.  This has been my point during the whole debate.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: metlhead on February 03, 2021, 07:37:29 PM
If that is the case, then use a scoped rifle. Zero lock time will make the clean kill even more likely.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: metlhead on February 03, 2021, 07:40:29 PM
Oh, forgot to mention. Extra rounds for quick backup shots, in case the first just wasn't perfect.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on February 03, 2021, 07:54:29 PM
If that is the case, then use a scoped rifle. Zero lock time will make the clean kill even more likely.
Huh? What does that have to do with a muzzleloader.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: full choke on February 03, 2021, 08:15:29 PM
If that is the case, then use a scoped rifle. Zero lock time will make the clean kill even more likely.
Huh? What does that have to do with a muzzleloader.

Ar you referring to a scope?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: metlhead on February 03, 2021, 08:16:14 PM
Just sayin, if clean ethical kills are the justification for scopes, then why stop at a muzzleloader. We should just use repeating rifles. What is the point of a muzzleloader season any more?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on February 03, 2021, 09:34:40 PM
Some of us grew up muzzleloading.

I believe I've hunted muzzy season for 42 straight years.

I just like muzzleloading.

But my eyes are fading.  They simply can't focus near and far anymore.

A 1X scope would let me hunt muzzy season a little longer.

Simple as that for me.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jonathan_S on February 05, 2021, 06:39:27 AM
Some of us grew up muzzleloading.

I believe I've hunted muzzy season for 42 straight years.

I just like muzzleloading.

But my eyes are fading.  They simply can't focus near and far anymore.

A 1X scope would let me hunt muzzy season a little longer.

Simple as that for me.


:tup: muzzleloaders are sure fun to shoot stuff with. Keep in mind if you don't get your way, you could always hunt with it scoped in the modern rifle season.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 07, 2021, 08:06:04 AM
Dug back in the corner and pulled out a 10/22 I don't use much but have had for over 40 years.  A scarred up 1" tube single power scope in Weaver mounts sits on it.  My memory says it's a Weaver scope.  Can't find magnification, but very little if any.  Might be on to something.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on February 07, 2021, 10:04:57 AM
Gh that could be a weaver k-1 they made a 1x. They were very popular and a few places restore them and still sell them.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: pd on February 07, 2021, 11:23:38 AM
Gh that could be a weaver k-1 they made a 1x. They were very popular and a few places restore them and still sell them.

There's one right now on eBay.
"VGS Refurbished Weaver Scope. K1 Riflescope, Vintage Mint."

Comes in a wooden box.  Only $299.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on February 07, 2021, 11:29:21 AM
They are kinda a collector item and believe it or not thats about right on them.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 07, 2021, 01:23:23 PM
Gh that could be a weaver k-1 they made a 1x. They were very popular and a few places restore them and still sell them.

 :yeah:  Pulled the mount that had been on since 70's.  K1.5-1  Made only 4 years if my research was right.  Scars on it are from it taking a 60' drop without me.   :yike:  An old friend that I'll keep.   :)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: GWP on February 08, 2021, 09:45:03 PM
Whew! That was a long read! I have been away from big game hunting in general, archery hunting and muzzy hunting for quite a while. Long enough ago that I did not know in lines were legal here now. Or 209 primers, for that matter. I recently drug my Hawkins out and noticed the sights are pretty blurry...
Just some notes on 1 power scopes. Yes, they DO magnify. And a surprising amount. Back in the 70ís we hunted a lot of Yotes in Montana for pelt side money. The best shooter in our group used a 1.5 power scope. He head shot a yote at 510 yards, measured by me with a steel 100 yard tape. He also shot a small juice can off a fence post at 400 yards when I challenged him on the 510 yard shot. Both one shot each. Yes, we had a sweet Ďbench restí made from set up logs. We had that set up on a few of the fields. It still does not negate the long shot. Look at the long shots Buffelo hunters used to shoot. 1000 to 1500 yards on many of them.
I am not for the scopes on muzzle loaders, but I was against the shotgun primers and in lines when I first heard about them years ago, but, changes are probably a cominí.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: huntnnw on February 09, 2021, 04:09:58 AM
I used a custom vortex dot scope in UT that had the magnification ring removed. Having that dot greatly extended my range and was a huge advantage over open sights. Not even a question. I could easily kill a elk at 300 yards with one. Shot a buck on that hunt that I would have never tried in WA at 225 yards
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: CBP1888 on February 09, 2021, 08:34:42 PM
I grew up muzzleloader hunting in Utah back in the days when you could only use a 1x scope. There were a lot of hunters that hunted with 1x4 scopes that they would lock at the 1x magnification. Everything from super glue, to JB weld, and Leupold lock the magnification to a 1x if you sent it into them. Iím just throwing this out there to let you know there are ways around trying to find a 1x fixed scope.

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: h2ofowlr on February 09, 2021, 08:44:58 PM
What was the final verdict or is it still being decided?  Did they go with change and allow 1x scopes on muzzleloaders?  Or are we still on 29 pages worth of discussion?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on February 09, 2021, 09:13:49 PM
What was the final verdict or is it still being decided?  Did they go with change and allow 1x scopes on muzzleloaders?  Or are we still on 29 pages worth of discussion?
I don't think they decide until March....
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mr Mykiss on February 13, 2021, 03:07:21 PM
It was literally the only thing I commented on...but I reckon you crybabies will get your way. I want it to be easier :cryriver:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on February 13, 2021, 03:42:12 PM
It was literally the only thing I commented on...but I reckon you crybabies will get your way. I want it to be easier :cryriver:

Crybabies?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on February 13, 2021, 05:53:48 PM
Whew! That was a long read! I have been away from big game hunting in general, archery hunting and muzzy hunting for quite a while. Long enough ago that I did not know in lines were legal here now. Or 209 primers, for that matter. I recently drug my Hawkins out and noticed the sights are pretty blurry...
Just some notes on 1 power scopes. Yes, they DO magnify. And a surprising amount. Back in the 70ís we hunted a lot of Yotes in Montana for pelt side money. The best shooter in our group used a 1.5 power scope. He head shot a yote at 510 yards, measured by me with a steel 100 yard tape. He also shot a small juice can off a fence post at 400 yards when I challenged him on the 510 yard shot. Both one shot each. Yes, we had a sweet Ďbench restí made from set up logs. We had that set up on a few of the fields. It still does not negate the long shot. Look at the long shots Buffelo hunters used to shoot. 1000 to 1500 yards on many of them.
I am not for the scopes on muzzle loaders, but I was against the shotgun primers and in lines when I first heard about them years ago, but, changes are probably a cominí.

I'm not saying your friend can't make a coyote headshot at 510 yards with a 1X scope, but then he is the extreme exception to the rule. 

Most guys can't hit a coyote at 500 yards  if you give them a 20 power Nightforce scope. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: GWP on February 13, 2021, 06:10:13 PM
He was the exception for sure, but the point was, if I didnít make it clear, it is the shooter, not the gun, the majority of the time. In 50 years of shooting and competing I would put him in the top three I have ever seen or known. You can work on the weapon, but it still is the shooter in the end.
I forget what scope ĎWhite Featherí had on the big Browning 50 double paddle machine gun he used, but it was not much. I remember reading about some of his shooting with it. Pretty amazing. He was also Ďthe exceptioní of shooters.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on February 13, 2021, 07:29:14 PM
Yep. 

Well stated. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: wadu1 on February 13, 2021, 08:56:43 PM
He was the exception for sure, but the point was, if I didnít make it clear, it is the shooter, not the gun, the majority of the time. In 50 years of shooting and competing I would put him in the top three I have ever seen or known. You can work on the weapon, but it still is the shooter in the end.
I forget what scope ĎWhite Featherí had on the big Browning 50 double paddle machine gun he used, but it was not much. I remember reading about some of his shooting with it. Pretty amazing. He was also Ďthe exceptioní of shooters.
We used 8X Unertl scopes on crew served weapons when White Feather was active. I had them for M2's and 20mm Vulcan's.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: GWP on February 13, 2021, 09:21:30 PM
If I am correct one of his shots with the M2 was 2500 yards? With an 8X scope? Awesome!
I need to check on an old Weaver I have in the shop that I think may be very low power. I know I have two Leupold 2X pistol scopes... Maybe we should push for 2X!
Still not sure I would put a scope on the stuffer, but maybe...
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: wadu1 on February 13, 2021, 09:28:48 PM
If I am correct one of his shots with the M2 was 2500 yards? With an 8X scope? Awesome!
I need to check on an old Weaver I have in the shop that I think may be very low power. I know I have two Leupold 2X pistol scopes... Maybe we should push for 2X!
Still not sure I would put a scope on the stuffer, but maybe...
Correct 2500 yards
https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/marine-made-historys-5th-longest-sniper-kill-machine-gun/ (https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/marine-made-historys-5th-longest-sniper-kill-machine-gun/)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: GWP on February 13, 2021, 09:38:26 PM
That picture! I have seen it before but it is always amazing to see what he did with what he had. Crazy! And working double thumb triggers to boot!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on February 14, 2021, 12:02:05 AM
A 1X scope would really help my old eyes. 

It's frustrating trying to shoot iron sights these days. 

In my case, what was easy to see 10 years ago is now a blur.  I simply cant focus on sights AND target.   

I get both sides, but in my case I'd put a 1X scope on asap when legal.
This is what i heard was the reasoning. I belive something similar came up for bow hunters... something about how all you guys are getting old and need cheater and such to see.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Itís called aging out unfortunately happens to all of us SUCK  IT UP
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 14, 2021, 08:17:31 AM
I asked to change to 2x since I can't find the 1x.   :tup:  :sry:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on February 14, 2021, 08:24:29 AM
It was literally the only thing I commented on...but I reckon you crybabies will get your way. I want it to be easier :cryriver:
Your the only one that's been crying about anything.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 14, 2021, 08:56:46 AM
You can definitely tell who is viewing it from the best interest of the resource vs who is viewing it from the best interest of themselves after reading through this thread... hopefully they make the right decision but Iím not holding my breath
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on February 14, 2021, 12:03:30 PM
You can definitely tell who is viewing it from the best interest of the resource vs who is viewing it from the best interest of themselves after reading through this thread... hopefully they make the right decision but Iím not holding my breath


 Seams a lot of folks donít care about the resources anymore only care about themselves
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: trophyhunt on February 14, 2021, 12:24:56 PM
I just hope the change will result in less wounded, unfound animals. The other change might just be better Iím my opinion, allowing cross bows during Muzzy season, the high end xbows are really accurate.  Wonder if you can put a 1x scope on a cross bow?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 14, 2021, 02:04:13 PM
I just hope the change will result in less wounded, unfound animals. The other change might just be better Iím my opinion, allowing cross bows during Muzzy season, the high end xbows are really accurate.  Wonder if you can put a 1x scope on a cross bow?

Hard to find a xbow without a scope.  Try to find one with 1x.  Most start at 2x. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on February 14, 2021, 03:25:41 PM
You can definitely tell who is viewing it from the best interest of the resource vs who is viewing it from the best interest of themselves after reading through this thread... hopefully they make the right decision but Iím not holding my breath


 Seams a lot of folks donít care about the resources anymore only care about themselves

LOL

So, if someone wants a different rule than you want, they dont care about the resource. 

Your ability to jump to a conclusion is entertaining.



Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BreezyBear on February 14, 2021, 03:31:50 PM
Well said Dan-O  :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on February 14, 2021, 04:04:05 PM
You can definitely tell who is viewing it from the best interest of the resource vs who is viewing it from the best interest of themselves after reading through this thread... hopefully they make the right decision but Iím not holding my breath


 Seams a lot of folks donít care about the resources anymore only care about themselves

LOL

So, if someone wants a different rule than you want, they dont care about the resource. 

Your ability to jump to a conclusion is entertaining.

Itís not jumping to a conclusion itís pretty clear that a lot of people think for the now and not for the future, and the scope  situation is very clear a scope makes it a modern weapon  no if ands or butts about it and some people seam to say poor me  my vision , this or that look we will all age out eventually but because they canít except that they want to change. Rules for there benefit knowing it will affect muzzle season  in many ways . This also isnít our biggest issue at hand but yes itís very clear A lot of people donít think about the resource and or the way each rule change affects that
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on February 14, 2021, 04:16:10 PM
You can definitely tell who is viewing it from the best interest of the resource vs who is viewing it from the best interest of themselves after reading through this thread... hopefully they make the right decision but Iím not holding my breath


 Seams a lot of folks donít care about the resources anymore only care about themselves

LOL

So, if someone wants a different rule than you want, they dont care about the resource. 

Your ability to jump to a conclusion is entertaining.

Itís not jumping to a conclusion itís pretty clear that a lot of people think for the now and not for the future, and the scope  situation is very clear a scope makes it a modern weapon  no if ands or butts about it and some people seam to say poor me  my vision , this or that look we will all age out eventually but because they canít except that they want to change. Rules for there benefit knowing it will affect muzzle season  in many ways . This also isnít our biggest issue at hand but yes itís very clear A lot of people donít think about the resource and or the way each rule change affects that

The first telescopic scope was made in 1776, and successfully implemented in the 1830s according to google. Not sure adding one to a muzzleloader will automatically qualify it as a modern firearm. The resource isnít going to be depleted by adding a fixed 1X scope to a muzzleloader. Predators are doing a much better job at that then hunters ever will. In 2018 27k deer were killed by hunters. The state has an estimated 3k cougars that average one deer kill a week. That would equate to over 150k deer killed by just cougars, and we all know the 3k estimate is low!

Edit: I guess there are 2k adult cougars per their estimate in 2018, so I guess only 100k deaths at the hands of a cat.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on February 14, 2021, 04:23:34 PM
You can definitely tell who is viewing it from the best interest of the resource vs who is viewing it from the best interest of themselves after reading through this thread... hopefully they make the right decision but Iím not holding my breath


 Seams a lot of folks donít care about the resources anymore only care about themselves

LOL

So, if someone wants a different rule than you want, they dont care about the resource. 

Your ability to jump to a conclusion is entertaining.

Itís not jumping to a conclusion itís pretty clear that a lot of people think for the now and not for the future, and the scope  situation is very clear a scope makes it a modern weapon  no if ands or butts about it and some people seam to say poor me  my vision , this or that look we will all age out eventually but because they canít except that they want to change. Rules for there benefit knowing it will affect muzzle season  in many ways . This also isnít our biggest issue at hand but yes itís very clear A lot of people donít think about the resource and or the way each rule change affects that

The first telescopic scope was made in 1776, and successfully implemented in the 1830s according to google. Not sure adding one to a muzzleloader will automatically qualify it as a modern firearm. The resource isnít going to be depleted by adding a fixed 1X scope to a muzzleloader. Predators are doing a much better job at that then hunters ever will. In 2018 27k deer were killed by hunters. The state has an estimated 3k cougars that average one deer kill a week. That would equate to over 150k deer killed by just cougars, and we all know the 3k estimate is low!

Hence y I said this isnít our biggest issue well aware of our predator issue ,death by a thousand cuts and it will affect numbers of hunters,harvested ,wounded  for those that think there muzzleloader is now a rifle , they have slowly taken away the tradition of muzzleloading and a scope is just another notch towards a modern rifle that is a fact
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on February 14, 2021, 04:27:21 PM
You can definitely tell who is viewing it from the best interest of the resource vs who is viewing it from the best interest of themselves after reading through this thread... hopefully they make the right decision but Iím not holding my breath


 Seams a lot of folks donít care about the resources anymore only care about themselves

LOL

So, if someone wants a different rule than you want, they dont care about the resource. 

Your ability to jump to a conclusion is entertaining.

Itís not jumping to a conclusion itís pretty clear that a lot of people think for the now and not for the future, and the scope  situation is very clear a scope makes it a modern weapon  no if ands or butts about it and some people seam to say poor me  my vision , this or that look we will all age out eventually but because they canít except that they want to change. Rules for there benefit knowing it will affect muzzle season  in many ways . This also isnít our biggest issue at hand but yes itís very clear A lot of people donít think about the resource and or the way each rule change affects that

The first telescopic scope was made in 1776, and successfully implemented in the 1830s according to google. Not sure adding one to a muzzleloader will automatically qualify it as a modern firearm. The resource isnít going to be depleted by adding a fixed 1X scope to a muzzleloader. Predators are doing a much better job at that then hunters ever will. In 2018 27k deer were killed by hunters. The state has an estimated 3k cougars that average one deer kill a week. That would equate to over 150k deer killed by just cougars, and we all know the 3k estimate is low!

Hence y I said this isnít our biggest issue well aware of our predator issue ,death by a thousand cuts and it will affect numbers of hunters,harvested ,wounded  for those that think there muzzleloader is now a rifle , they have slowly taken away the tradition of muzzleloading and a scope is just another notch towards a modern rifle that is a fact

The same thing could be said for every technological advancement for any of our means of hunting though. I donít think it will have a profound impact, and Iíll wager there will be less wounding of animals then before. No real way of tracking that unfortunately.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bigdub257 on February 14, 2021, 04:29:39 PM
Why not apply this to the older generation and people with visual disabilities?  65 and over or apply for a disability permit.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on February 14, 2021, 05:53:01 PM
You can definitely tell who is viewing it from the best interest of the resource vs who is viewing it from the best interest of themselves after reading through this thread... hopefully they make the right decision but Iím not holding my breath


 Seams a lot of folks donít care about the resources anymore only care about themselves

LOL

So, if someone wants a different rule than you want, they dont care about the resource. 

Your ability to jump to a conclusion is entertaining.

Itís not jumping to a conclusion itís pretty clear that a lot of people think for the now and not for the future, and the scope  situation is very clear a scope makes it a modern weapon  no if ands or butts about it and some people seam to say poor me  my vision , this or that look we will all age out eventually but because they canít except that they want to change. Rules for there benefit knowing it will affect muzzle season  in many ways . This also isnít our biggest issue at hand but yes itís very clear A lot of people donít think about the resource and or the way each rule change affects that

The first telescopic scope was made in 1776, and successfully implemented in the 1830s according to google. Not sure adding one to a muzzleloader will automatically qualify it as a modern firearm. The resource isnít going to be depleted by adding a fixed 1X scope to a muzzleloader. Predators are doing a much better job at that then hunters ever will. In 2018 27k deer were killed by hunters. The state has an estimated 3k cougars that average one deer kill a week. That would equate to over 150k deer killed by just cougars, and we all know the 3k estimate is low!

Hence y I said this isnít our biggest issue well aware of our predator issue ,death by a thousand cuts and it will affect numbers of hunters,harvested ,wounded  for those that think there muzzleloader is now a rifle , they have slowly taken away the tradition of muzzleloading and a scope is just another notch towards a modern rifle that is a fact

The same thing could be said for every technological advancement for any of our means of hunting though. I donít think it will have a profound impact, and Iíll wager there will be less wounding of animals then before. No real way of tracking that unfortunately.

There has to be a limit on our technology  in my opinion not just with muzzle,I mean with rifle , and bow
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 14, 2021, 06:01:41 PM
Should we be allowed to use electric vehicles for road hunting?  Seems the new technology would be quieter and give hunters a stealth advantage---increasing harvest of the resource.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 14, 2021, 06:22:05 PM
I really dont want this to pass, but if it does i have a scope already picked out. 1 moa aiming dot and an exposed elevation dial.

Hopefully we can keep it as just iron sights.  :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 14, 2021, 06:31:31 PM
What, no smart projectiles?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on February 14, 2021, 06:49:25 PM
Should we be allowed to use electric vehicles for road hunting?  Seems the new technology would be quieter and give hunters a stealth advantage---increasing harvest of the resource.

Is there a law preventing this?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: KFhunter on February 14, 2021, 06:53:01 PM
If that is the case, then use a scoped rifle. Zero lock time will make the clean kill even more likely.
Huh? What does that have to do with a muzzleloader.
What does a scoped muzzleloader have to do with primitive hunting?

People only go muzzleloader due to seasons timing, or purists.





Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on February 14, 2021, 07:13:30 PM
If that is the case, then use a scoped rifle. Zero lock time will make the clean kill even more likely.
Huh? What does that have to do with a muzzleloader.
What does a scoped muzzleloader have to do with primitive hunting?

People only go muzzleloader due to seasons timing, or purists.





Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

I would say 90% of muzzleloader hunters I ran into this year were carrying inlines, none were carrying flintlocks. Not purists, they were after the season dates...like me.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: KFhunter on February 14, 2021, 07:20:38 PM
He was the exception for sure, but the point was, if I didnít make it clear, it is the shooter, not the gun, the majority of the time. In 50 years of shooting and competing I would put him in the top three I have ever seen or known. You can work on the weapon, but it still is the shooter in the end.
I forget what scope ĎWhite Featherí had on the big Browning 50 double paddle machine gun he used, but it was not much. I remember reading about some of his shooting with it. Pretty amazing. He was also Ďthe exceptioní of shooters.
We used 8X Unertl scopes on crew served weapons when White Feather was active. I had them for M2's and 20mm Vulcan's.  :twocents:
Pops started with a 30-06 but was transitioned to the M-40 with a Redfield scope in 7.62 nato match.

He's got a pic of his longest shot somewhere, it wasn't even in the scope, just a "hmm about here...bang!"   Look in the spotter...wait...flop in the rice patty.

I believe it's the longest M-40 shot of the era.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 14, 2021, 07:25:15 PM
If that is the case, then use a scoped rifle. Zero lock time will make the clean kill even more likely.
Huh? What does that have to do with a muzzleloader.
What does a scoped muzzleloader have to do with primitive hunting?

People only go muzzleloader due to seasons timing, or purists.





Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

I would say 90% of muzzleloader hunters I ran into this year were carrying inlines, none were carrying flintlocks. Not purists, they were after the season dates...like me.
I'm there for timing and the units available.  When I couldn't find any units for modern that I liked that weren't trounced three weeks earlier by the muzzy army, just had to join them.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: full choke on February 14, 2021, 07:27:29 PM
If that is the case, then use a scoped rifle. Zero lock time will make the clean kill even more likely.
Huh? What does that have to do with a muzzleloader.
What does a scoped muzzleloader have to do with primitive hunting?

People only go muzzleloader due to seasons timing, or purists.





Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

I would say 90% of muzzleloader hunters I ran into this year were carrying inlines, none were carrying flintlocks. Not purists, they were after the season dates...like me.

And how long do you think those seasons dates last when more people switch to muzzy cause now they can use a scope? And harvest rates increase both from sheer numbers of hunters, and now more accuracy from scopes to take the shot.

Inlines were one thing- the 209 primers was the wrong next step. Scopes are just stupid.

Canít wait to see the complaining in a couple of years...
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: KFhunter on February 14, 2021, 07:31:44 PM
You can definitely tell who is viewing it from the best interest of the resource vs who is viewing it from the best interest of themselves after reading through this thread... hopefully they make the right decision but Iím not holding my breath


 Seams a lot of folks donít care about the resources anymore only care about themselves

LOL

So, if someone wants a different rule than you want, they dont care about the resource. 

Your ability to jump to a conclusion is entertaining.

Itís not jumping to a conclusion itís pretty clear that a lot of people think for the now and not for the future, and the scope  situation is very clear a scope makes it a modern weapon  no if ands or butts about it and some people seam to say poor me  my vision , this or that look we will all age out eventually but because they canít except that they want to change. Rules for there benefit knowing it will affect muzzle season  in many ways . This also isnít our biggest issue at hand but yes itís very clear A lot of people donít think about the resource and or the way each rule change affects that

The first telescopic scope was made in 1776, and successfully implemented in the 1830s according to google. Not sure adding one to a muzzleloader will automatically qualify it as a modern firearm. The resource isnít going to be depleted by adding a fixed 1X scope to a muzzleloader. Predators are doing a much better job at that then hunters ever will. In 2018 27k deer were killed by hunters. The state has an estimated 3k cougars that average one deer kill a week. That would equate to over 150k deer killed by just cougars, and we all know the 3k estimate is low!

Hence y I said this isnít our biggest issue well aware of our predator issue ,death by a thousand cuts and it will affect numbers of hunters,harvested ,wounded  for those that think there muzzleloader is now a rifle , they have slowly taken away the tradition of muzzleloading and a scope is just another notch towards a modern rifle that is a fact

The same thing could be said for every technological advancement for any of our means of hunting though. I donít think it will have a profound impact, and Iíll wager there will be less wounding of animals then before. No real way of tracking that unfortunately.
I don't think there's going to be less wounding  of animals, they'll just punch out their range until wounding occurs.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on February 14, 2021, 07:56:30 PM
If that is the case, then use a scoped rifle. Zero lock time will make the clean kill even more likely.
Huh? What does that have to do with a muzzleloader.
What does a scoped muzzleloader have to do with primitive hunting?

People only go muzzleloader due to seasons timing, or purists.





Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
That's a load of BS. I switched from modern to muzzleloader about twelve years ago simply because it gave me the option to harvest a cow in the unit I spend most of my time in. And I also have no problem with continuing to use peep sites,  but if this does pass the 1x scope I already have will be on my muzzleloader.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: KFhunter on February 14, 2021, 08:00:14 PM
Like I said, seasons or purists.



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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on February 14, 2021, 08:04:28 PM
Like I said, seasons or purists.

Go back to your conspiracy theories threads.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: KFhunter on February 14, 2021, 08:17:02 PM
I go where I please tyvm

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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jjhunter on February 14, 2021, 08:18:28 PM
Iím trying to figure out how to pin the power ring on 1x on this NF NX8...haha
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on February 14, 2021, 08:37:41 PM
Iím trying to figure out how to pin the power ring on 1x on this NF NX8...haha

JB weld is awesome.. :)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jjhunter on February 14, 2021, 08:53:35 PM
Iím trying to figure out how to pin the power ring on 1x on this NF NX8...haha

JB weld is awesome.. :)

Haha.  Unless I want to be able to remove and use 8x in Utah!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 14, 2021, 09:01:06 PM
What about some loc-tite?  Could you put a small dot on and then remove later with soldering pencil?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jjhunter on February 14, 2021, 09:09:40 PM
You guys are the best!   :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on February 14, 2021, 09:17:19 PM
Iím trying to figure out how to pin the power ring on 1x on this NF NX8...haha

JB weld is awesome.. :)

Haha.  Unless I want to be able to remove and use 8x in Utah!

Or you can just use it on 1x and leave it unpinned.
Like most hunters are gonna due anyway.
Available 1x scopes sucks and it's gonna happen that most hunter will just throw whatever on there. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

Will say with that CONGRATS guys ,might as well make the most of the opportunity.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: rut72 on February 14, 2021, 10:58:19 PM
You can mount a telescope on a muzzleloader for all I care. I've been muzzy hunting for 20 years and I have yet to see a technological advancement that turns crappy hunters into good ones. A vast majority of the muzzy hunters out there can't or won't put in the effort to become proficient with a muzzleloader. It goes way beyond just looking through a scope and pulling the trigger. Powder and bullet selection, consistency in loading, gun cleanliness and lots of practice have more to do with success than the sight. I don't care either way. I've been successful 20 years in a row by busting my butt and hunting hard. A 1x scope won't make animals magically appear in front of hunters who don't put in the effort. What this rule change will do is entice some people to try muzzleloader hunting and then quit after the first year when they realize that the scope wasn't a magic pill.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on February 15, 2021, 08:57:52 AM
You can mount a telescope on a muzzleloader for all I care. I've been muzzy hunting for 20 years and I have yet to see a technological advancement that turns crappy hunters into good ones. A vast majority of the muzzy hunters out there can't or won't put in the effort to become proficient with a muzzleloader. It goes way beyond just looking through a scope and pulling the trigger. Powder and bullet selection, consistency in loading, gun cleanliness and lots of practice have more to do with success than the sight. I don't care either way. I've been successful 20 years in a row by busting my butt and hunting hard. A 1x scope won't make animals magically appear in front of hunters who don't put in the effort. What this rule change will do is entice some people to try muzzleloader hunting and then quit after the first year when they realize that the scope wasn't a magic pill.

+ 1

I tried making this point way back, thank you for saying it better than I could.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on February 15, 2021, 09:07:23 AM
Iím trying to figure out how to pin the power ring on 1x on this NF NX8...haha

JB weld is awesome.. :)

Haha.  Unless I want to be able to remove and use 8x in Utah!

Or you can just use it on 1x and leave it unpinned.
Like most hunters are gonna due anyway.
Available 1x scopes sucks and it's gonna happen that most hunter will just throw whatever on there. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

Will say with that CONGRATS guys ,might as well make the most of the opportunity.

Im trying to follow your logic here, are you saying that if this passes itís going to turn muzzy guys into cheaters and poachers too?  :dunno:

Technology doesnít turn a person into a cheater. I have news for you those that will cheat are cheating now regardless of a 1x scope. This isnít going to recruit more poachers any more than any technology advancement of that past hasnít destroyed the herds.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: KFhunter on February 15, 2021, 09:27:06 AM
Technology hasn't destroyed herds?

People popping mules out past 500 yards in a burn hasn't led to reductions in opportunities?

I think a 1x scope will have people shooting further, If legal I'll mount one and see how far I can push it. 

I'm not a purist, I'm just in it for the seasons.


Bows are my thing, I like the idea of a range finding sight on my bow, its in the proposal too.

It'll help me make those snap shots that bucks run away while I'm digging out my handheld range finder, now It'll be right on the bow!

Sweet!  More tech please!

(But I'm under no illusions that It'll *not* result in more animals shot)

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on February 15, 2021, 09:46:23 AM
Iím trying to figure out how to pin the power ring on 1x on this NF NX8...haha

JB weld is awesome.. :)

Haha.  Unless I want to be able to remove and use 8x in Utah!

Or you can just use it on 1x and leave it unpinned.
Like most hunters are gonna due anyway.
Available 1x scopes sucks and it's gonna happen that most hunter will just throw whatever on there. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

Will say with that CONGRATS guys ,might as well make the most of the opportunity.
I would like to see that one explained to a warden.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on February 15, 2021, 09:50:31 AM
Iím trying to figure out how to pin the power ring on 1x on this NF NX8...haha

JB weld is awesome.. :)

Haha.  Unless I want to be able to remove and use 8x in Utah!

Or you can just use it on 1x and leave it unpinned.
Like most hunters are gonna due anyway.
Available 1x scopes sucks and it's gonna happen that most hunter will just throw whatever on there. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

Will say with that CONGRATS guys ,might as well make the most of the opportunity.

Im trying to follow your logic here, are you saying that if this passes itís going to turn muzzy guys into cheaters and poachers too?  :dunno:

Technology doesnít turn a person into a cheater. I have news for you those that will cheat are cheating now regardless of a 1x scope. This isnít going to recruit more poachers any more than any technology advancement of that past hasnít destroyed the herds.

I was simply implying that seems as though finding 1 power scopes sucks. Not much being available.
They should just make all scopes legal in my mind .
As far as cheating or poaching ,they should just allow all or none that's my opinion.
I'm not trying to encourage illegal activities(we don't even know the final decision) .But whatever this or that hunter does is nonya ,to me anyway.
I let people take responsibility for themselves and worry about my self. I look the other way 99/100 times.

What are some of you guys gonna do if it has to be a fixed power scope ? Meaning No adjustment at all.

I don't really want to debate technology,all that really matters is what WDFW say to what is legal or not. As far as technology advances.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 15, 2021, 10:47:52 AM
Here is your 1x scope.  Speculators opportunity.  Starts now!

https://www.amazon.com/EOTECH-512-A65-Tactical-HOLOgraphic-Batteries/dp/B000KKFVRC/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=eotech-rd-512xbow&qid=1613414631&sr=8-4
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on February 15, 2021, 11:38:03 AM
Here is your 1x scope.  Speculators opportunity.  Starts now!

https://www.amazon.com/EOTECH-512-A65-Tactical-HOLOgraphic-Batteries/dp/B000KKFVRC/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=eotech-rd-512xbow&qid=1613414631&sr=8-4
I'm no expert ,but are they gonna allow illuminated or battery operated reticle.Just asking  :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on February 15, 2021, 11:49:35 AM
Never mind it looks like no electric devices can be attached to a muzzleloader ,unless they change that rule too. :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on February 15, 2021, 12:03:47 PM
My understanding is that section 3 (b) is the only regulation under consideration. Section 3 (c) would remain in effect.



WAC 220-414-060

Muzzleloading firearms.
(1) Definitions.
(a) Muzzleloader: A firearm that is loaded from the muzzle and uses black powder or a black powder substitute as recommended by the manufacturer for use in all muzzleloading firearms.
(b) A muzzleloading firearm shall be considered loaded if a powder charge and a projectile, either shot or single projectile are in the barrel and the barrel or breech is capped or primed.
(2) It is unlawful to hunt wildlife using a muzzleloading firearm that does not meet the following specifications:
(a) A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle must have a single or double barrel, rifled or smooth-bored.
(b) A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle used for deer must be .40 caliber or larger. Buckshot size #1 or larger may be used in a smoothbore of .60 caliber or larger for deer.
(c) A muzzleloading shotgun, rifle, or handgun used for all other big game must be .45 caliber or larger.
(d) Persons lawfully hunting small game with a double barrel, muzzleloading shotgun may keep both barrels loaded.
(e) A muzzleloading handgun must have a single or double barrel of at least eight inches, must be rifled, and must be capable of being loaded with forty-five grains or more of black powder or black powder substitute per the manufacturer's recommendations.
(f) A muzzleloading handgun used for big game must be .45 caliber or larger.
(g) A handgun designed to be used with black powder, including black powder percussion revolvers, can be used to hunt forest grouse, cottontail rabbits, and snowshoe hares.
(3) In addition to the above requirements, it is unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading hunting season using a firearm that does not meet the following specifications for a muzzleloader. However, a modern handgun may be carried for personal protection. Modern handguns cannot be used to hunt big game or dispatch wounded big game during a big game hunting season for muzzleloading firearms.
(a) Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion. Primers designed to be used in modern cartridges are legal.
(b) Sights must be open, peep, or of other open sight design. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights or sights containing glass are prohibited.
(c) It is unlawful to have any electrical device or equipment attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting.
(d) Those persons lawfully hunting big game with a double barrel muzzleloader may only keep one barrel loaded.
(4) Muzzleloading firearms used during a modern firearm season are not required to meet ignition, sight, or double barrel restrictions.
(5) A violation of this section is punishable under RCW 77.15.400, 77.15.410, or 77.15.430, depending on the species hunted.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on February 15, 2021, 12:16:16 PM
What if a warden says it has to be manufactured as a 1x scope. LETTER OF THE LAW.
What if he twist on your adjustment knob really hard and the super glue,jb weld,soldering,bubble gum,pinned ,locktite,ECT comes undone from weather or beating the brush ,or some gun oil,or soapy water,or whatever.
Then what do you do. :dunno: :dunno:

Here's a few links I found in just a few Google ,
But good luck guys with this 1x scope thing.

https://vortexoptics.com/vortex-crossfire-ii-1x24-muzzleloader-riflescope.html

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1009749095

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1009766610

Most of these scopes look like they have been discontinued or kinda rare items .You guys better buy one now ,cause maybe a few of you have a chance at getting one.
Maybe flee bay might have some . :dunno: :dunno:

I will find it a little ironic if only the 1x scope passes.
And adujustable scopes not allowed period.
WDFW gives you guys something that's obsolete and virtually useless .I will laugh a little ,I'm sorry guys.
CONGRATS on the big win.
 :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 15, 2021, 12:57:40 PM
Bob
Am I reading something into this?

WAC 220-414-060 Muzzleloading firearms. - click the link to review the proposed changes.

Purpose of the proposal and its anticipated effects, including any changes in existing rules:

Specific amendments associated with this proposal include:

1. Allowing the use of 1x or red dot scopes on muzzleloading firearms. Anticipated effects associated with this amendment would be increased hunter participation, increased hunter retention, and ensuring a clean and ethical kill.

2. Allowing video-cameras to be mounted to muzzleloading firearms. There are no anticipated effects associated with this proposal other than hunters who wish to video their hunt being allowed to do so.

3. Clarifies that the term ďloadĒ refers to the powder charge and projectile and that both must be loaded from the muzzle. Anticipated effects associated with this amendment would be hunters having a clearer understanding of the muzzleloading firearms that are legal to use during established muzzleloader seasons.

Reasons supporting proposal:

1. Under current rule, sights on muzzleloading firearms must be open, peep, or of other open sight design. Optic sights are allowed, but telescopic sights or sights containing glass are not. The Department routinely receives requests from hunters to allow the use of 1x scopes on muzzleloading firearms. Common arguments in support of allowing them to be used are related to increased hunter participation, hunter retention, and ensuring a clean and ethical kill. One-power scopes do not magnify the target, but rather provide a clearer sight window, in much the same way eyeglasses correct someoneís vision (i.e., they make the target clearer, but donít make it bigger). Common arguments against their use are typically related to the use of scopes not adhering to the spirit of primitive weapons. The Department is not opposed to allowing the use of 1x scopes on muzzleloading firearms because we do not anticipate it would result in more animals being harvested. When presented to the public for initial comment, 65% of the ~1,300 respondents indicated support for this proposal.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on February 15, 2021, 01:08:40 PM
Iím trying to figure out how to pin the power ring on 1x on this NF NX8...haha

JB weld is awesome.. :)

Haha.  Unless I want to be able to remove and use 8x in Utah!

Or you can just use it on 1x and leave it unpinned.
Like most hunters are gonna due anyway.
Available 1x scopes sucks and it's gonna happen that most hunter will just throw whatever on there. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

Will say with that CONGRATS guys ,might as well make the most of the opportunity.

Im trying to follow your logic here, are you saying that if this passes itís going to turn muzzy guys into cheaters and poachers too?  :dunno:

Technology doesnít turn a person into a cheater. I have news for you those that will cheat are cheating now regardless of a 1x scope. This isnít going to recruit more poachers any more than any technology advancement of that past hasnít destroyed the herds.

I was simply implying that seems as though finding 1 power scopes sucks. Not much being available.
They should just make all scopes legal in my mind .
As far as cheating or poaching ,they should just allow all or none that's my opinion.
I'm not trying to encourage illegal activities(we don't even know the final decision) .But whatever this or that hunter does is nonya ,to me anyway.
I let people take responsibility for themselves and worry about my self. I look the other way 99/100 times.

What are some of you guys gonna do if it has to be a fixed power scope ? Meaning No adjustment at all.

I don't really want to debate technology,all that really matters is what WDFW say to what is legal or not. As far as technology advances.

Ok wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or not but when you say say "use whatever (variable) and leave it unpinned cause you all will anyway" sounds as if you were suggesting we are all just going to cheat now.

As far as what am I gonna do if they make it fixed power 1??? I'm gonna do what i've been doing for 25 years and go hunt with my iron sights, 200 is my range and I'm good with that. What I've been doing is working and why change?

I'm not one here that is pushing for this rule but if it happens I don't think its a big deal. The sky didn't fall like many said it would when they allowed lighted knocks and this is much the same. Not a significant enough change to make a difference other than maybe allow some old timers a few more openers to look forward to ... and that's not such a bad thing.

 You all are going to be there someday and when you are???  you'll wish you had that 1x!   ;)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 15, 2021, 01:21:56 PM
I was mostly thinking about them for the low-light hours, particularly of the late elk season.  About half the time it is raining so much, that a scope at 1x probably isn't that much of an advantage.  I have to blow the rain water out of the peep routinely to keep it clear.  During modern, even good, 3x scopes have caused problems in heavy rain.  Would probably have to go with a detachable or something.  The early season or eastside, I think, is where the scope or red dot would have the most value.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: suga on February 15, 2021, 05:03:47 PM
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/uxs4jJLVrzmsE/giphy.gif)

Iím good either way it goes


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on February 15, 2021, 08:31:39 PM
Iím trying to figure out how to pin the power ring on 1x on this NF NX8...haha

JB weld is awesome.. :)

Haha.  Unless I want to be able to remove and use 8x in Utah!

Or you can just use it on 1x and leave it unpinned.
Like most hunters are gonna due anyway.
Available 1x scopes sucks and it's gonna happen that most hunter will just throw whatever on there. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

Will say with that CONGRATS guys ,might as well make the most of the opportunity.

Im trying to follow your logic here, are you saying that if this passes itís going to turn muzzy guys into cheaters and poachers too?  :dunno:

Technology doesnít turn a person into a cheater. I have news for you those that will cheat are cheating now regardless of a 1x scope. This isnít going to recruit more poachers any more than any technology advancement of that past hasnít destroyed the herds.

I was simply implying that seems as though finding 1 power scopes sucks. Not much being available.
They should just make all scopes legal in my mind .
As far as cheating or poaching ,they should just allow all or none that's my opinion.
I'm not trying to encourage illegal activities(we don't even know the final decision) .But whatever this or that hunter does is nonya ,to me anyway.
I let people take responsibility for themselves and worry about my self. I look the other way 99/100 times.

What are some of you guys gonna do if it has to be a fixed power scope ? Meaning No adjustment at all.

I don't really want to debate technology,all that really matters is what WDFW say to what is legal or not. As far as technology advances.

Ok wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or not but when you say say "use whatever (variable) and leave it unpinned cause you all will anyway" sounds as if you were suggesting we are all just going to cheat now.

As far as what am I gonna do if they make it fixed power 1??? I'm gonna do what i've been doing for 25 years and go hunt with my iron sights, 200 is my range and I'm good with that. What I've been doing is working and why change?

I'm not one here that is pushing for this rule but if it happens I don't think its a big deal. The sky didn't fall like many said it would when they allowed lighted knocks and this is much the same. Not a significant enough change to make a difference other than maybe allow some old timers a few more openers to look forward to ... and that's not such a bad thing.

 You all are going to be there someday and when you are???  you'll wish you had that 1x!   ;)
Again reference to the available options to 1x scopes
Where someone might have to use whatever.
But after reading the proposed changes that ghost just posted it does sound as if elecritic devices may be allowed .

I'm not a huge fan of rule changes that leave a "grey area"
That may turn someone on the wrong side of the law. By trying to make a variable power scope into a 1x scope.
That's all my comment was referring too.
I'm a lot older than you may think ,very close to my 50's.
There was quite a bit of the proposals that I disagreed on.
Boundary changes and such ,most hunters don't keep up with changes and such.Before you know they are hunting where they always have.Now all of a sudden there a "poacher"cause of some stupid change.
Not only does some of these proposals sell tags but they also write more tickets ,which I'm not a fan of that too.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bkaech on February 15, 2021, 08:47:27 PM
Bob
Am I reading something into this?

WAC 220-414-060 Muzzleloading firearms. - click the link to review the proposed changes.

Purpose of the proposal and its anticipated effects, including any changes in existing rules:

Specific amendments associated with this proposal include:

1. Allowing the use of 1x or red dot scopes on muzzleloading firearms. Anticipated effects associated with this amendment would be increased hunter participation, increased hunter retention, and ensuring a clean and ethical kill.

2. Allowing video-cameras to be mounted to muzzleloading firearms. There are no anticipated effects associated with this proposal other than hunters who wish to video their hunt being allowed to do so.

3. Clarifies that the term ďloadĒ refers to the powder charge and projectile and that both must be loaded from the muzzle. Anticipated effects associated with this amendment would be hunters having a clearer understanding of the muzzleloading firearms that are legal to use during established muzzleloader seasons.

Reasons supporting proposal:

1. Under current rule, sights on muzzleloading firearms must be open, peep, or of other open sight design. Optic sights are allowed, but telescopic sights or sights containing glass are not. The Department routinely receives requests from hunters to allow the use of 1x scopes on muzzleloading firearms. Common arguments in support of allowing them to be used are related to increased hunter participation, hunter retention, and ensuring a clean and ethical kill. One-power scopes do not magnify the target, but rather provide a clearer sight window, in much the same way eyeglasses correct someoneís vision (i.e., they make the target clearer, but donít make it bigger). Common arguments against their use are typically related to the use of scopes not adhering to the spirit of primitive weapons. The Department is not opposed to allowing the use of 1x scopes on muzzleloading firearms because we do not anticipate it would result in more animals being harvested. When presented to the public for initial comment, 65% of the ~1,300 respondents indicated support for this proposal.


If you click the link in the page you copied that from it will give the actual rule changes. If adopted Section 3C will read....


(c)  It  is  unlawful  to  have  any  electrical aiming  device ((or equipment))  attached  to  a  muzzleloading  firearm  while  hunting except for red dot or other similar electronically powered scopes not exceed-ing  1x  magnification.  It  is  lawful  to  mount  a  video  camera  to  your muzzleloader while hunting provided it cannot be used for aiming the firearm.

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Special T on February 15, 2021, 08:57:09 PM
I think many of you dont seem to understand the trend of making Muzzy and Archery more accommodating to older hunters whom need reading glasses. Archery added the exemption of "Clarifiers"  to address the same issue as 1x scopes. Yes these are primitive weapons classes, but Im not sure that they will do anything other than keep older hunters in the game instead of hanging up hunting for good.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bkaech on February 15, 2021, 09:10:44 PM
My understanding is that section 3 (b) is the only regulation under consideration. Section 3 (c) would remain in effect.



WAC 220-414-060

Muzzleloading firearms.
(1) Definitions.
(a) Muzzleloader: A firearm that is loaded from the muzzle and uses black powder or a black powder substitute as recommended by the manufacturer for use in all muzzleloading firearms.
(b) A muzzleloading firearm shall be considered loaded if a powder charge and a projectile, either shot or single projectile are in the barrel and the barrel or breech is capped or primed.
(2) It is unlawful to hunt wildlife using a muzzleloading firearm that does not meet the following specifications:
(a) A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle must have a single or double barrel, rifled or smooth-bored.
(b) A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle used for deer must be .40 caliber or larger. Buckshot size #1 or larger may be used in a smoothbore of .60 caliber or larger for deer.
(c) A muzzleloading shotgun, rifle, or handgun used for all other big game must be .45 caliber or larger.
(d) Persons lawfully hunting small game with a double barrel, muzzleloading shotgun may keep both barrels loaded.
(e) A muzzleloading handgun must have a single or double barrel of at least eight inches, must be rifled, and must be capable of being loaded with forty-five grains or more of black powder or black powder substitute per the manufacturer's recommendations.
(f) A muzzleloading handgun used for big game must be .45 caliber or larger.
(g) A handgun designed to be used with black powder, including black powder percussion revolvers, can be used to hunt forest grouse, cottontail rabbits, and snowshoe hares.
(3) In addition to the above requirements, it is unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading hunting season using a firearm that does not meet the following specifications for a muzzleloader. However, a modern handgun may be carried for personal protection. Modern handguns cannot be used to hunt big game or dispatch wounded big game during a big game hunting season for muzzleloading firearms.
(a) Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion. Primers designed to be used in modern cartridges are legal.
(b) Sights must be open, peep, or of other open sight design. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights or sights containing glass are prohibited.
(c) It is unlawful to have any electrical device or equipment attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting.
(d) Those persons lawfully hunting big game with a double barrel muzzleloader may only keep one barrel loaded.
(4) Muzzleloading firearms used during a modern firearm season are not required to meet ignition, sight, or double barrel restrictions.
(5) A violation of this section is punishable under RCW 77.15.400, 77.15.410, or 77.15.430, depending on the species hunted.

Here are the proposed rule changes to Muzzleloaders:

AMENDATORY  SECTION  (Amending  WSR  18-11-061,  filed  5/11/18,  effective 6/11/18)WAC 220-414-060 
Muzzleloading firearms.
(1) Definitions.
(a)  Muzzleloader:  A  firearm  that  is  loaded  from  the  muzzle  and uses black powder or a black powder substitute as recommended by the manufacturer for use in all muzzleloading firearms. The term load re-fers to the powder charge and projectile and both must be loaded from the muzzle.
(b) A muzzleloading firearm shall be considered loaded if a pow-der charge and a projectile, either shot or single projectile are in the barrel and the barrel or breech is capped or primed.

(2) It is unlawful to hunt wildlife using a muzzleloading firearm that does not meet the following specifications:
(a) A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle must have a single or double barrel, rifled or smooth-bored.
(b)  A  muzzleloading  shotgun  or  rifle  used  for  deer  must  be  .40 caliber or larger. Buckshot size #1 or larger may be used in a smooth-bore of .60 caliber or larger for deer.
(c) A muzzleloading shotgun, rifle, or handgun used for all other big game must be .45 caliber or larger.
(d)  Persons  lawfully  hunting  small  game  with  a  double  barrel, muzzleloading shotgun may keep both barrels loaded.
(e) A muzzleloading handgun must have a single or double barrel of at least eight inches, must be rifled, and must be capable of being loaded with forty-five grains or more of black powder or black powder substitute per the manufacturer's recommendations.
(f) A muzzleloading handgun used for big game must be .45 caliber or larger.
(g)  A  handgun  designed  to  be  used  with  black  powder,  including black powder percussion revolvers, can be used to hunt forest grouse, cottontail rabbits, and snowshoe hares.

(3) In addition to the above requirements, it is unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading hunting season using a firearm that does not meet the following specifications for a muzzleloader. However,  a  modern  handgun  may  be  carried  for  personal  protection.  Modern handguns cannot be used to hunt big game or dispatch wounded big game during a big game hunting season for muzzleloading firearms.
(a) Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion. Primers designed to be used in modern cartridges are legal.
Sights must be open, peep, ((or)) of other open sight design, or scopes not exceeding 1x magnification. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights ((or sights containing glass)) are prohibited.
(c)  It  is  unlawful  to  have  any  electrical aiming  device ((or equipment))  attached  to  a  muzzleloading  firearm  while  hunting except for red dot or other similar electronically powered scopes not exceeding  1x  magnification.  It  is  lawful  to  mount  a  video  camera  to  your muzzleloader while hunting provided it cannot be used for aiming the firearm.
(d) Those persons lawfully hunting big game with a double barrel muzzleloader may only keep one barrel loaded.

(4)  Muzzleloading  firearms  used  during  a  modern  firearm  season are  not  required  to  meet  ignition,  sight,  or  double  barrel  restrictions.

(5)  A  violation  of  this  section  is  punishable  under  RCW 77.15.400, 77.15.410, or 77.15.430, depending on the species hunted.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on February 15, 2021, 09:18:36 PM
Bob
Am I reading something into this?

WAC 220-414-060 Muzzleloading firearms. - click the link to review the proposed changes.

Purpose of the proposal and its anticipated effects, including any changes in existing rules:

Specific amendments associated with this proposal include:

1. Allowing the use of 1x or red dot scopes on muzzleloading firearms. Anticipated effects associated with this amendment would be increased hunter participation, increased hunter retention, and ensuring a clean and ethical kill.

2. Allowing video-cameras to be mounted to muzzleloading firearms. There are no anticipated effects associated with this proposal other than hunters who wish to video their hunt being allowed to do so.

3. Clarifies that the term ďloadĒ refers to the powder charge and projectile and that both must be loaded from the muzzle. Anticipated effects associated with this amendment would be hunters having a clearer understanding of the muzzleloading firearms that are legal to use during established muzzleloader seasons.

Reasons supporting proposal:

1. Under current rule, sights on muzzleloading firearms must be open, peep, or of other open sight design. Optic sights are allowed, but telescopic sights or sights containing glass are not. The Department routinely receives requests from hunters to allow the use of 1x scopes on muzzleloading firearms. Common arguments in support of allowing them to be used are related to increased hunter participation, hunter retention, and ensuring a clean and ethical kill. One-power scopes do not magnify the target, but rather provide a clearer sight window, in much the same way eyeglasses correct someoneís vision (i.e., they make the target clearer, but donít make it bigger). Common arguments against their use are typically related to the use of scopes not adhering to the spirit of primitive weapons. The Department is not opposed to allowing the use of 1x scopes on muzzleloading firearms because we do not anticipate it would result in more animals being harvested. When presented to the public for initial comment, 65% of the ~1,300 respondents indicated support for this proposal.


If you click the link in the page you copied that from it will give the actual rule changes. If adopted Section 3C will read....


(c)  It  is  unlawful  to  have  any  electrical aiming  device ((or equipment))  attached  to  a  muzzleloading  firearm  while  hunting except for red dot or other similar electronically powered scopes not exceed-ing  1x  magnification.  It  is  lawful  to  mount  a  video  camera  to  your muzzleloader while hunting provided it cannot be used for aiming the firearm.
From what that reads ,
It does sound like red dots 1x,or video electronic device would be allowed .Im not so sure a variable power scope that has been temporarily fixed to a 1x would be legal.

My comment earlier in the topic.
Or you can just use it on 1x and leave it unpinned.
Much of the discussion at that time was how to make a variable scope into a fixed power scope.
Sometimes you got to pay to play.
Good nite guys . :hello:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: full choke on February 15, 2021, 09:20:49 PM
I think many of you dont seem to understand the trend of making Muzzy and Archery more accommodating to older hunters whom need reading glasses. Archery added the exemption of "Clarifiers"  to address the same issue as 1x scopes. Yes these are primitive weapons classes, but Im not sure that they will do anything other than keep older hunters in the game instead of hanging up hunting for good.

This state cares very little for youth hunters- I highly doubt they have a soft spot for older hunters.
If that was the case- make the exceptions for the 65 older hunts.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Special T on February 15, 2021, 09:39:09 PM
I think many of you dont seem to understand the trend of making Muzzy and Archery more accommodating to older hunters whom need reading glasses. Archery added the exemption of "Clarifiers"  to address the same issue as 1x scopes. Yes these are primitive weapons classes, but Im not sure that they will do anything other than keep older hunters in the game instead of hanging up hunting for good.

This state cares very little for youth hunters- I highly doubt they have a soft spot for older hunters.
If that was the case- make the exceptions for the 65 older hunts.

If you dont think the WDFW pays attention to license  sales when it comes to something like this I cant agree with you. This change is PC friendly, affects the bottom line, and has nothing to do with predators!


Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: sagemd on February 16, 2021, 06:15:55 PM
You can definitely tell who is viewing it from the best interest of the resource vs who is viewing it from the best interest of themselves after reading through this thread... hopefully they make the right decision but Iím not holding my breath


 Seams a lot of folks donít care about the resources anymore only care about themselves
If we are interested in the resources, we would go to a complete draw system. Like other well managed states.
Where harvest is controlled and success is way higher. As well as hunt experience.
WDFW is not interested in well managed wildlife, it's interested in money.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on February 17, 2021, 07:22:54 AM
By the way that reads to me it seems a 1x8 scope welded to one power scope would be legal. As it could be demonstrated as not being capable of 1x+ power. It doesnít specifically say something of that sort wouldnít be allowed. Or it doesnít say it has to be manufactured as a 1x scope only.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 17, 2021, 07:42:50 AM
or scopes not exceeding 1x magnification. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights ((or sights containing glass)) are prohibited.
(c) It is unlawful to have any electrical aiming device ((or
equipment)) attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting except
for red dot or other similar electronically powered scopes not exceeding 1x magnification
. It is lawful to mount a video camera to your
muzzleloader while hunting provided it cannot be used for aiming the
firearm

Unless they clarify, I personally wouldn't want to risk moving that discussion from the field to the courtroom.   I'll just spend the money on the 1x.  They are available.  ;)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jjhunter on February 17, 2021, 07:54:50 AM
My comment about fixing a variable scope on 1x was mostly a joke.  The optic I was talking about is a $2k optic, so putting JB Weld on it kind of followed the joke theme.   :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jjhunter on February 17, 2021, 08:01:40 AM
I did order the new CVA Paramount HTR in .40 cal, so if the law changes, Iíll get something figured out.

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on February 17, 2021, 09:15:01 AM
or scopes not exceeding 1x magnification. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights ((or sights containing glass)) are prohibited.
(c) It is unlawful to have any electrical aiming device ((or
equipment)) attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting except
for red dot or other similar electronically powered scopes not exceeding 1x magnification
. It is lawful to mount a video camera to your
muzzleloader while hunting provided it cannot be used for aiming the
firearm

Unless they clarify, I personally wouldn't want to risk moving that discussion from the field to the courtroom.   I'll just spend the money on the 1x.  They are available.  ;)

How Is a scope pinned at 1x capable of exceeding 1x?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on February 17, 2021, 09:16:27 AM
My comment about fixing a variable scope on 1x was mostly a joke.  The optic I was talking about is a $2k optic, so putting JB Weld on it kind of followed the joke theme.   :chuckle:

Sure,  But I wouldnít even hesitate on a 300$ scope.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 17, 2021, 09:27:03 AM
or scopes not exceeding 1x magnification. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights ((or sights containing glass)) are prohibited.
(c) It is unlawful to have any electrical aiming device ((or
equipment)) attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting except
for red dot or other similar electronically powered scopes not exceeding 1x magnification
. It is lawful to mount a video camera to your
muzzleloader while hunting provided it cannot be used for aiming the
firearm

Unless they clarify, I personally wouldn't want to risk moving that discussion from the field to the courtroom.   I'll just spend the money on the 1x.  They are available.  ;)

How Is a scope pinned at 1x capable of exceeding 1x?

Similar to a plug in a shotgun. Removable but meets the criteria..
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 17, 2021, 09:33:35 AM
or scopes not exceeding 1x magnification. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights ((or sights containing glass)) are prohibited.
(c) It is unlawful to have any electrical aiming device ((or
equipment)) attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting except
for red dot or other similar electronically powered scopes not exceeding 1x magnification
. It is lawful to mount a video camera to your
muzzleloader while hunting provided it cannot be used for aiming the
firearm

Unless they clarify, I personally wouldn't want to risk moving that discussion from the field to the courtroom.   I'll just spend the money on the 1x.  They are available.  ;)

How Is a scope pinned at 1x capable of exceeding 1x?

By what it reads on the scope?  :dunno:  I'll do what I'm comfortable with.  Let others work it out their way.  Maybe the final print will clarify.   :dunno:  :brew:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jjhunter on February 17, 2021, 09:35:10 AM
My comment about fixing a variable scope on 1x was mostly a joke.  The optic I was talking about is a $2k optic, so putting JB Weld on it kind of followed the joke theme.   :chuckle:

Sure but a 300$ But I wouldnít even hesitate on a 300$ scope.

Itís all been done before in Utah.  G7/NF came out with a 1x, Leupold ďfixedĒ variables @ 1x from the factory.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 17, 2021, 09:40:38 AM
My comment about fixing a variable scope on 1x was mostly a joke.  The optic I was talking about is a $2k optic, so putting JB Weld on it kind of followed the joke theme.   :chuckle:

Sure but a 300$ But I wouldnít even hesitate on a 300$ scope.

Itís all been done before in Utah.  G7/NF came out with a 1x, Leupold ďfixedĒ variables @ 1x from the factory.
:yeah: vortex would also fix their scopes to 1x.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on February 17, 2021, 04:26:07 PM
My comment about fixing a variable scope on 1x was mostly a joke.  The optic I was talking about is a $2k optic, so putting JB Weld on it kind of followed the joke theme.   :chuckle:

Who was joking  :dunno:

I would put JB Weld on your Nightforce if you wanted me too  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jjhunter on February 17, 2021, 05:31:04 PM
My comment about fixing a variable scope on 1x was mostly a joke.  The optic I was talking about is a $2k optic, so putting JB Weld on it kind of followed the joke theme.   :chuckle:

Who was joking  :dunno:

I would put JB Weld on your Nightforce if you wanted me too  :chuckle:

Haha!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: GWP on February 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PM
I would believe a PERMANENT pinning would qualify. Not just a set screw or safety wire or glue.
Sort of like a barrel extension or blank gun conversion. It must be permanent.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on February 17, 2021, 06:47:28 PM
If they will let a plastic plug be legal in a shotgun that can easily be taken out in the field. To change a legal gun to a illegal gun.

I don't think they are going to fight a guy over a glued/epoxy scope fixed at 1x.

If they grab it and it turns your going to get hammered. If they grab it and cant turn it, I think you will be ok.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on February 21, 2021, 03:03:22 PM
If they will let a plastic plug be legal in a shotgun that can easily be taken out in the field. To change a legal gun to a illegal gun.

I don't think they are going to fight a guy over a glued/epoxy scope fixed at 1x.

If they grab it and it turns your going to get hammered. If they grab it and cant turn it, I think you will be ok.

Exactly. I mean you can paint over the numbers 1,2,3,4 ext if it makes them feel better. But you scrape off the paint on a scope and jb weld that sucker it WILL be permanent lol
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: usmc74 on February 25, 2021, 02:09:11 PM
Anyone have a part # for a rail for my bighorn?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 25, 2021, 02:35:23 PM
Anyone have a part # for a rail for my bighorn?

https://www.egwguns.com/knight-bolt-action-muzzleloader-picatinny-rail-0-moa

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: lamrith on February 25, 2021, 03:11:12 PM
any update on if this was approved or not?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 25, 2021, 03:17:23 PM
any update on if this was approved or not?

No.  Still got time to make comments.

2021-23 Hunting Season Rules - Adoption by the WDFW Commission
2021-23 Hunting Season Rules - Adoption by the WDFW Commission  - March/April 2021

The recommendations will be presented for consideration by the Fish and Wildlife Commission in March and with potential adoption in April 2021. These recommendations will be based on the biological needs of a species and the social need of the public gathered through the comment period.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: usmc74 on February 25, 2021, 03:17:55 PM
Anyone have a part # for a rail for my bighorn?

https://www.egwguns.com/knight-bolt-action-muzzleloader-picatinny-rail-0-moa

Get the 20 MOA for long shots?  JK
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: usmc74 on February 27, 2021, 03:39:22 PM
Not in favor, but if this passes, my muzzy will be wearing a scope.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: GWP on February 27, 2021, 03:58:57 PM
I was considering selling my Hawkins and single shot pistol. May have to wait to see how this falls out.
Thought I had a 1X rifle scope in the shop but it turned out to be 2.5 fixed. Looked 'just to see' after reading this thread.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 28, 2021, 07:51:29 AM
This might be it.  Shotguns, muzzleloader, crossbow.  One size fits all.

https://www.amazon.com/TRUGLO-Red-Dot-Crossbow-3-Dot-Sight/dp/B004Z5BVFO
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: fire*guy on February 28, 2021, 08:00:43 AM
Any idea if electronic scopes will be allowed such as red-dot ?
For some reason I was thinking that battery aided equipment wasnt allowed ? 
I know this whole thing is premature, we have no idea it will even pass or not.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on February 28, 2021, 08:05:58 AM
Any idea if electronic scopes will be allowed such as red-dot ?
For some reason I was thinking that battery aided equipment wasnt allowed ? 
I know this whole thing is premature, we have no idea it will even pass or not.
There were no proposals addressing the use of electronics so I assume they will still be illegal during muzzleloader seasons.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 28, 2021, 08:11:34 AM
In the proposals. 

WAC 220-414-060 Muzzleloading firearms.

(b) Sights must be open, peep, ((or)) of other open sight design,
or scopes not exceeding 1x magnification. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights ((or sights containing glass)) are prohibited.
(c) It is unlawful to have any electrical aiming device ((or
equipment)) attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting except
for red dot or other similar electronically powered scopes not exceeding 1x magnification
.
It is lawful to mount a video camera to your
muzzleloader while hunting provided it cannot be used for aiming the
firearm.
(d) T
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: fire*guy on February 28, 2021, 08:23:56 AM
I've heard very mixed reviews on hunting with a red dot sight. Anyone ever try one on a hunting rifle before ?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: usmc74 on February 28, 2021, 08:28:19 AM
Had a cheap BSA red dot on a 12 ga slug gun.  Had to reset zero about every 20 shots.

I moved it to my 10/22 and it did the same.  I would assume the better ones would not have this issue
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on February 28, 2021, 08:30:55 AM
In the proposals. 

WAC 220-414-060 Muzzleloading firearms.

(b) Sights must be open, peep, ((or)) of other open sight design,
or scopes not exceeding 1x magnification. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights ((or sights containing glass)) are prohibited.
(c) It is unlawful to have any electrical aiming device ((or
equipment)) attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting except
for red dot or other similar electronically powered scopes not exceeding 1x magnification
.
It is lawful to mount a video camera to your
muzzleloader while hunting provided it cannot be used for aiming the
firearm.
(d) T
Thanks.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on February 28, 2021, 08:49:52 AM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/about/regulations/filings/2021/combined.pdf

WAC 220-414-060 Muzzleloading firearms. 1. Under current rule, sights on muzzleloading firearms must be open, peep, or of other open sight design. Optic sights are allowed, but telescopic sights or sights containing glass are not. The Department routinely receives requests from hunters to allow the use of 1x scopes on muzzleloading firearms. Common arguments in support of allowing them to be used are related to increased hunter participation, hunter retention, and ensuring a clean and ethical kill. One-power scopes do not magnify the target, but rather provide a clearer sight window, in much the same way eyeglasses correct someoneís vision (i.e., they make the target clearer, but donít make it bigger). Common arguments against their use are typically related to the use of scopes not adhering to the spirit of primitive weapons. The Department is not opposed to allowing the use of 1x scopes on muzzleloading firearms because we do not anticipate it would result in more animals being harvested. When presented to the public for initial comment, 65% of the ~1,300 respondents indicated support for this proposal. 2. Currently, it is unlawful for hunters to have any electrical equipment or electric device(s) attached to muzzleloading firearms. By rule, this precludes a hunter from mounting a video camera to their weapon for the purpose of filming their hunt. Filming hunts has become a common practice with hunters, but it is difficult for hunters that prefer to hunt without other hunting companions. Allowing video-cameras to be mounted to muzzleloading firearms would make it easier for them to film their hunts and does not present a resource concern. When presented to the public for initial comment, 71% of the ~1,300 respondents indicated support for this proposal. 3. Recent technological advancements in muzzleloading equipment have resulted in the development of muzzleloading firearms that use an encapsulated propellant charge that loads from the breech and is completely impervious to moisture. The bullet is still loaded from the muzzle. Hunters have begun to inquire as to whether this type of muzzleloading firearm is legal to use in Washington. It is not because the current rule requires that the load be loaded from the muzzle. By amending language to clearly state that the term load includes both the powder charge and bullet, the proposed amendment simply adds language to clarify these new muzzleloading firearms are not lawful during established muzzleloader seasons.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on February 28, 2021, 09:07:25 AM
I've heard very mixed reviews on hunting with a red dot sight. Anyone ever try one on a hunting rifle before ?

I have a lot but it's on a Win 88 308 that I have used for hound hunting... It works great, but I don't think they would be  great for anything at distance....

 keep in mind that a 6moa dot is 6" in diameter at 100yds, basically 12" at 200 so that's a lot of room for error.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: GWP on February 28, 2021, 10:55:59 AM
I had a couple quality red dot's when my eyes were better/different and did a bunch of shooting at 100 yards (rifle and pistol) to see if it would work. It did not work well. Even though they 'say' 6 mil, for me, they seemed to cover more than that. I was not happy with the spread. I was Ok with it at 50 yards, but even then, you are placing the dot by how much is around it, not centering it on the target, if that makes sense. You can't see the center.
I played with a laser at low light as well. That actually worked surprisingly well, but ONLY in low light.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 28, 2021, 12:26:35 PM
Supposedly the leupold freedom rds has a 1 moa dot. I havent looked at them in person but watched some reviews on youtube. I have my doubts its that great but ill look at them if this passes.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 28, 2021, 12:39:03 PM
Supposedly the leupold freedom rds has a 1 moa dot. I havent looked at them in person but watched some reviews on youtube. I have my doubts its that great but ill look at them if this passes.

If thatís the one Iím thinking of a lot of the reviews say the dot is terrible on it
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 28, 2021, 12:51:07 PM
I've got a EuroOptic ordered from OP.  It showed in stock.  Called and ordered, lady said ships in March.  Account says July.  Might have time to cancel if proposed change doesn't happen.  Other sites are BO.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 28, 2021, 12:53:18 PM
Supposedly the leupold freedom rds has a 1 moa dot. I havent looked at them in person but watched some reviews on youtube. I have my doubts its that great but ill look at them if this passes.

If thatís the one Iím thinking of a lot of the reviews say the dot is terrible on it
2 videos i watched, one said it was terrible and the other said it was amazing.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on March 07, 2021, 06:41:25 PM
So when do these clowns decide on all these proposals hope it doesnít pass along with many other of there proposals
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 07, 2021, 07:16:47 PM
So when do these clowns decide on all these proposals hope it doesnít pass along with many other of there proposals
One page back.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: LayMdown on March 11, 2021, 09:26:07 AM
For all you that wanna put a scope on a muzzy and hunt I am pretty sure you can do it during modern deer and elk season, spring bear, fall bear and cougar season.  So if you wanna use a muzzy with scope just do it during one of those seasons.  Leave muzzy the way it is.  I wish they wouldn't have went to 209 either.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Amen to that :yeah:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: LayMdown on March 11, 2021, 09:58:44 AM
I guess Archery and rifle are the only things that can have advancement of technology  :dunno: every time muzzy has had any everyone gets their panties in a bunch.

For the record Iím not advocating for the rule change Iím gonna keep doing the same thing Ive been doing for 20 years. But itís laughable to think this is whatís going to be the demise of the herds, it wasnít the demise when archery allowed fiber optics and lighted knocks and they will survive 1x scopes too.

As far as people flocking to muzzy? I donít think so, thereís not much of an attraction to a 6 day season that doesnít even encompass two full weekends ... muzzy in Wa has the crappiest seasons. Muzzy hunters in Wa have been dwindling every year if guys want to try the short season and clean their gun more In one day then they have in their lifetime I say let them.  :twocents:

6 Days?
I've always thought muzzy had the best season being 7 days early season and 21 days in the late season, I'll be switching to rifle hunting if they legalize any type of scope :bdid:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: M_ray on March 11, 2021, 07:06:10 PM
I guess Archery and rifle are the only things that can have advancement of technology  :dunno: every time muzzy has had any everyone gets their panties in a bunch.

For the record Iím not advocating for the rule change Iím gonna keep doing the same thing Ive been doing for 20 years. But itís laughable to think this is whatís going to be the demise of the herds, it wasnít the demise when archery allowed fiber optics and lighted knocks and they will survive 1x scopes too.

As far as people flocking to muzzy? I donít think so, thereís not much of an attraction to a 6 day season that doesnít even encompass two full weekends ... muzzy in Wa has the crappiest seasons. Muzzy hunters in Wa have been dwindling every year if guys want to try the short season and clean their gun more In one day then they have in their lifetime I say let them.  :twocents:

6 Days?
I've always thought muzzy had the best season being 7 days early season and 21 days in the late season, I'll be switching to rifle hunting if they legalize any type of scope :bdid:


Its is 7 but seems like 6 cause its Sat thru the next Fri, its the only season of the three methods that doesn't even encompass two full weekends  :dunno:

 I'm not up on the West side elk cause I always hunt east but the west used to have a decent late season and still may but the late season in the East is in areas of little elk AND mostly all private lands. The state still counts those as days for the muzzloaders even though its largely unattainable for the average hunter.   
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bigshooter on March 11, 2021, 07:27:25 PM
Supposedly the leupold freedom rds has a 1 moa dot. I havent looked at them in person but watched some reviews on youtube. I have my doubts its that great but ill look at them if this passes.

I have one and I like it.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BigTines on March 21, 2021, 07:19:39 PM
Anyone know when this is going to be voted on? Should be any day...
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: fire*guy on March 21, 2021, 07:35:21 PM
I believe March 25 and 26th are the recommendation meeting and the final yes or no is in April sometime. I think they basically follow the recommendation of the committee almost always.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bkaech on March 21, 2021, 10:03:42 PM

[/quote]

6 Days?
I've always thought muzzy had the best season being 7 days early season and 21 days in the late season, I'll be switching to rifle hunting if they legalize any type of scope :bdid:
[/quote]

You don't have to use one just because they make it legal. I don't understand why you would switch? I'm opposed to the rule change but it won't change what I do.... I still use musket caps too. It doesn't affect me.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: polishstunner on March 22, 2021, 08:54:57 PM
Anyone have any luck finding 1x scopes.  I dont think a red dot will be that effective unless you get a very good one (1 moa)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: haftard on March 22, 2021, 09:06:26 PM
there alot of "tactical" options for a 1x optical sight, a 1moa red dot would work but isnt fool proof. i honestly hope they let us use 3x9 scopes. anything to help the idiot who shoots his muzzleloader once a year ya know.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on March 23, 2021, 06:45:43 AM
Anyone have any luck finding 1x scopes.  I dont think a red dot will be that effective unless you get a very good one (1 moa)

A 2 moa dot is still a lot smaller on target ď2 inchesĒ when compared to bead and peep or finger optics. Certainly would make a person a lot more accurate out to distances.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mtnwalker on March 23, 2021, 07:19:37 AM
Anyone have any luck finding 1x scopes.  I dont think a red dot will be that effective unless you get a very good one (1 moa)

A 2 moa dot is still a lot smaller on target ď2 inchesĒ when compared to bead and peep or finger optics. Certainly would make a person a lot more accurate out to distances.

I think i figured my stock Bighorn front sight at just under 5moa if I remember correctly...
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on March 23, 2021, 09:18:26 AM
Anyone have any luck finding 1x scopes.  I dont think a red dot will be that effective unless you get a very good one (1 moa)

A 2 moa dot is still a lot smaller on target ď2 inchesĒ when compared to bead and peep or finger optics. Certainly would make a person a lot more accurate out to distances.

I think i figured my stock Bighorn front sight at just under 5moa if I remember correctly...

It seems I figured mine was around 8 MOA but I canít remember. But having clear glass all around that little 2 or 1 Moa dot is a large improvement.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: GWP on March 24, 2021, 07:11:02 AM
https://www.seeallopensight.com

This sight was brought up a couple times but did not get a lot of discussion.
While it DOES NOT MAGNIFY THE TARGET, there is a magnifying lens built into it that amplifies the INTERNAL triangle that becomes the forward sight. It actually is an open sight with '0' magnification, but there IS a glass magnifying lens that is part of the sight.
I had a similar 'sort' of sight on a bow that eliminated the peep sight in the string and the big ring on the bow. It had two internal rings that you would center to be on target.
It was smaller than the ring/peep set up, and for my eyes, easier to use. It was called an 'Anchor Point'.
I would use one of the SeeAll sights on a muzzle loader, but would wonder if they would think it 'illegal' as there is a glass, magnifying lens built into it, even though it DOES NOT MAGNIFY THE TARGET.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on March 24, 2021, 10:19:17 AM
https://www.seeallopensight.com

This sight was brought up a couple times but did not get a lot of discussion.
While it DOES NOT MAGNIFY THE TARGET, there is a magnifying lens built into it that amplifies the INTERNAL triangle that becomes the forward sight. It actually is an open sight with '0' magnification, but there IS a glass magnifying lens that is part of the sight.
I had a similar 'sort' of sight on a bow that eliminated the peep sight in the string and the big ring on the bow. It had two internal rings that you would center to be on target.
It was smaller than the ring/peep set up, and for my eyes, easier to use. It was called an 'Anchor Point'.
I would use one of the SeeAll sights on a muzzle loader, but would wonder if they would think it 'illegal' as there is a glass, magnifying lens built into it, even though it DOES NOT MAGNIFY THE TARGET.

Used this site on my knight and is legal already didnít care for it personally but have a friend that loves it
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bkaech on March 24, 2021, 09:39:41 PM
https://www.seeallopensight.com

This sight was brought up a couple times but did not get a lot of discussion.
While it DOES NOT MAGNIFY THE TARGET, there is a magnifying lens built into it that amplifies the INTERNAL triangle that becomes the forward sight. It actually is an open sight with '0' magnification, but there IS a glass magnifying lens that is part of the sight.
I had a similar 'sort' of sight on a bow that eliminated the peep sight in the string and the big ring on the bow. It had two internal rings that you would center to be on target.
It was smaller than the ring/peep set up, and for my eyes, easier to use. It was called an 'Anchor Point'.
I would use one of the SeeAll sights on a muzzle loader, but would wonder if they would think it 'illegal' as there is a glass, magnifying lens built into it, even though it DOES NOT MAGNIFY THE TARGET.

Used this site on my knight and is legal already didnít care for it personally but have a friend that loves it

I would disagree with the statement that it is already legal. Last years regulations say that a sight containing glass is prohibited, Although it is an "open" sight it does contain glass. I may be wrong, I'm no expert.

I would imagine these would be legal if the changes go through, and a very interesting design, but a lot different than a 1x scope.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: haftard on March 24, 2021, 09:49:05 PM
well vortex makes a crossfire 1x24 muzzleloader scope. i think it has 2.5moa cross hairs. for like 150 bucks. so. i know what im getting. 300 yards is alot more doable with optics then it is with open sights
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on March 24, 2021, 10:01:25 PM
https://www.seeallopensight.com

This sight was brought up a couple times but did not get a lot of discussion.
While it DOES NOT MAGNIFY THE TARGET, there is a magnifying lens built into it that amplifies the INTERNAL triangle that becomes the forward sight. It actually is an open sight with '0' magnification, but there IS a glass magnifying lens that is part of the sight.
I had a similar 'sort' of sight on a bow that eliminated the peep sight in the string and the big ring on the bow. It had two internal rings that you would center to be on target.
It was smaller than the ring/peep set up, and for my eyes, easier to use. It was called an 'Anchor Point'.
I would use one of the SeeAll sights on a muzzle loader, but would wonder if they would think it 'illegal' as there is a glass, magnifying lens built into it, even though it DOES NOT MAGNIFY THE TARGET.

Used this site on my knight and is legal already didnít care for it personally but have a friend that loves it

I would disagree with the statement that it is already legal. Last years regulations say that a sight containing glass is prohibited, Although it is an "open" sight it does contain glass. I may be wrong, I'm no expert.

I would imagine these would be legal if the changes go through, and a very interesting design, but a lot different than a 1x scope.

https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/optics/see-all-open-sight-delta-triangle-sight.html

I am pretty sure the company has letters from most states like Washington where they submitted them for review and they were given the ok. If you read the listing they claim legal in all states where fiber optic open sights are legal. I would think that would be a huge liability for the company if they were selling it as being legal and itís not.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 24, 2021, 10:06:27 PM
I ended up finding an old weaver k1.  Looking at getting the see through rings.  Just from playing around with it, sure seems like even 1x would be a bonus.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Damnimissed on March 24, 2021, 11:41:43 PM
well vortex makes a crossfire 1x24 muzzleloader scope. i think it has 2.5moa cross hairs. for like 150 bucks. so. i know what im getting. 300 yards is alot more doable with optics then it is with open sights

Good luck finding one. Theyíve been discontinued for several years and Iíve been seeing WTB ads on other sites as soon as there was talk of this rule change.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on March 25, 2021, 05:51:05 AM
Honestly I was against it at first.
But after keeping up with this topic,My disgust for WDFW,
And the fact that it doesn't really seem that bad.
I hope you guys do get it.I think you will.
Might as well take every opportunity we can get.
Savor the flavor and run with it. :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mtnwalker on March 25, 2021, 07:34:08 AM
well vortex makes a crossfire 1x24 muzzleloader scope. i think it has 2.5moa cross hairs. for like 150 bucks. so. i know what im getting. 300 yards is alot more doable with optics then it is with open sights

If this does pass I hope everybody takes the time to run some ballistics on their setup and see what that bullet is actually doing at 300 cause with a lot of em' it isn't much
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Pathfinder101 on March 25, 2021, 07:39:35 AM
Do we know anything yet?  Or do we have to wait until the regs are published in a month? :dunno:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bobcat on March 25, 2021, 07:55:43 AM
Do we know anything yet?  Or do we have to wait until the regs are published in a month? :dunno:

Should know after the meeting this weekend.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jrebel on March 25, 2021, 08:01:47 AM
well vortex makes a crossfire 1x24 muzzleloader scope. i think it has 2.5moa cross hairs. for like 150 bucks. so. i know what im getting. 300 yards is alot more doable with optics then it is with open sights

If this does pass I hope everybody takes the time to run some ballistics on their setup and see what that bullet is actually doing at 300 cause with a lot of em' it isn't much

Most people canít shoot their rifles well enough to make a clean kill at 300..... :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: 
I canít wait till they make a daisy red rider with scope mounts....those pesky rodents in the barn yard wonít stand a chance.....Iíll be hitting them from the front porch at 300 yards.  Should just cut them in half!!!! 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: polishstunner on March 25, 2021, 08:16:04 AM
Heres the deal, 1x is not a huge difference but will help me.  I have missed good animals with a small micro front and williams peep.  I am a good shot (better with cross hairs).  I am excited for making a "better" shot at 160 yds where I can be more comfortable...not having the bright green dot cover half the animal.

I spent 3 weeks scouring every site out there (ebay, CL, midway, optic planet, google, forums).  Im just glad I found mine as there were at least a 100 dudes ahead of me with the same plan.  There is a cheap 1x out there being made that is still available Vector Optics Wrangler. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jrebel on March 25, 2021, 08:21:16 AM
Heres the deal, 1x is not a huge difference but will help me.  I have missed good animals with a small micro front and williams peep.  I am a good shot (better with cross hairs).  I am excited for making a "better" shot at 160 yds where I can be more comfortable...not having the bright green dot cover half the animal.

I spent 3 weeks scouring every site out there (ebay, CL, midway, optic planet, google, forums).  Im just glad I found mine as there were at least a 100 dudes ahead of me with the same plan.  There is a cheap 1x out there being made that is still available Vector Optics Wrangler. 


I found two and bought them in anticipation of the law changing.  They will help a bit and Iím excited as my eyes arenít getting any younger.  Not sure it will be extend my range much but it will tighten up my groups. 

My previous post was for fun....but is true.  I have seen people shoot 12 inch groups at 300 and be happy with those groups. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: CBP1888 on March 25, 2021, 09:44:37 AM
I was also able to grab a Vortex 1x, a Traditions 1x, and my buddy got the TC 1x in anticipation of the opportunity to use 1x scopes this year. The scopes were both purchased on eBay, but you have to be on it almost every day. My coworker sent an email to Vortex about the anticipated change to Washingtonís muzzleloader law and bringing back the 1x scope. Vortex responded and said that at this time there was no plan to bring back the 1x scope. My suggestion to those looking for a 1x scope use the search terms: 1x24, 1x32, 1x scope, muzzleloader scope, shotgun scope, and pistol scope(eBay and gunbroker).  Also call a few of the Pawn shops in Utah, Colorado, and Wisconsin that at 1 time had only 1x scope laws that later changed to allow variable scopes.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: polishstunner on March 25, 2021, 10:14:23 AM
This is my traditions.  About a 100 yds away.  No doubt better than my peep, etc.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: polishstunner on March 25, 2021, 10:15:19 AM
Pic didnt go
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Wizekrakr on March 25, 2021, 02:20:15 PM
I started looking 3 weeks before this thread started up.  Found a Weaver on ebay and 4 TC's on Gun Broker in 10 minutes. Yup, bought em all.  Capitalism at it's finest.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BreezyBear on March 25, 2021, 02:31:33 PM
I started looking 3 weeks before this thread started up.  Found a Weaver on ebay and 4 TC's on Gun Broker in 10 minutes. Yup, bought em all.  Capitalism at it's finest.

I was able to get two NIB Weavers off of Ebay about a month ago, one for me and one for the son in-law  :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 25, 2021, 05:00:11 PM
None of those are what I'm waiting for.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: kselkhunter on March 25, 2021, 06:05:52 PM
1x Scopes will definitely help with better light transmission in lowlight conditions.  Especially the higher quality brands with better optics coatings.


For those wanting a scope for "eyesight" reasons if you are having trouble focusing with your peep sight, consider using one of these Merit adjustable aperture peep inserts.  Hunting Disc #4 fits most threaded insert peeps from Williams and others.   My muzzleloader setup is a rear peep with Merit #4 adjustable peep insert, and front globe sight with crosshairs and the crosshairs are painted with glow-in-the-dark gunsight paint for better visibility in dawn/dusk lowlight conditions.   For those without eyesight issues, these apertures still help your eyes focus on the crosshairs and target at the same time for longer range shots (within ballistical reason of course...it's still a slow fat 45 cal/50 cal bullet travelling downrange).  The Merit peep insert and front crosshairs dramatically improved my accuracy with the muzzleloader.

http://www.meritcorporation.com/how_they_work.html

http://www.meritcorporation.com/products.html
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jimmy33 on March 25, 2021, 08:19:44 PM
1x Scopes will definitely help with better light transmission in lowlight conditions.  Especially the higher quality brands with better optics coatings.


For those wanting a scope for "eyesight" reasons if you are having trouble focusing with your peep sight, consider using one of these Merit adjustable aperture peep inserts.  Hunting Disc #4 fits most threaded insert peeps from Williams and others.   My muzzleloader setup is a rear peep with Merit #4 adjustable peep insert, and front globe sight with crosshairs and the crosshairs are painted with glow-in-the-dark gunsight paint for better visibility in dawn/dusk lowlight conditions.   For those without eyesight issues, these apertures still help your eyes focus on the crosshairs and target at the same time for longer range shots (within ballistical reason of course...it's still a slow fat 45 cal/50 cal bullet travelling downrange).  The Merit peep insert and front crosshairs dramatically improved my accuracy with the muzzleloader.

http://www.meritcorporation.com/how_they_work.html

http://www.meritcorporation.com/products.html
I checked online today and saw a Thompson center 1x32 for sale


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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: polishstunner on March 25, 2021, 08:40:14 PM
None of those are what I'm waiting for.

What are you waiting for, a quality one? They are all BB gun scopes.  We all want a NF but those are long gone. Gunwerks had a small line on them 10 years ago.  We would all give 600 or more for one.  Not trying to be negative.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on March 25, 2021, 08:53:28 PM
Heres the deal, 1x is not a huge difference but will help me.  I have missed good animals with a small micro front and williams peep.  I am a good shot (better with cross hairs).  I am excited for making a "better" shot at 160 yds where I can be more comfortable...not having the bright green dot cover half the animal.

I spent 3 weeks scouring every site out there (ebay, CL, midway, optic planet, google, forums).  Im just glad I found mine as there were at least a 100 dudes ahead of me with the same plan.  There is a cheap 1x out there being made that is still available Vector Optics Wrangler.

Donít forget this rule includes red dots... many many red dot/holographic  options available.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on March 25, 2021, 09:02:57 PM
https://www.seeallopensight.com

This sight was brought up a couple times but did not get a lot of discussion.
While it DOES NOT MAGNIFY THE TARGET, there is a magnifying lens built into it that amplifies the INTERNAL triangle that becomes the forward sight. It actually is an open sight with '0' magnification, but there IS a glass magnifying lens that is part of the sight.
I had a similar 'sort' of sight on a bow that eliminated the peep sight in the string and the big ring on the bow. It had two internal rings that you would center to be on target.
It was smaller than the ring/peep set up, and for my eyes, easier to use. It was called an 'Anchor Point'.
I would use one of the SeeAll sights on a muzzle loader, but would wonder if they would think it 'illegal' as there is a glass, magnifying lens built into it, even though it DOES NOT MAGNIFY THE TARGET.

Used this site on my knight and is legal already didnít care for it personally but have a friend that loves it

I would disagree with the statement that it is already legal. Last years regulations say that a sight containing glass is prohibited, Although it is an "open" sight it does contain glass. I may be wrong, I'm no expert.

I would imagine these would be legal if the changes go through, and a very interesting design, but a lot different than a 1x scope.

Well I met one on one with game
Warden also emailed in ahead of time with all manufacturers specs and it is legal think what ya want it is
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 25, 2021, 09:48:23 PM
None of those are what I'm waiting for.

What are you waiting for, a quality one? They are all BB gun scopes.  We all want a NF but those are long gone. Gunwerks had a small line on them 10 years ago.  We would all give 600 or more for one.  Not trying to be negative.
I'm still planning on staying under 70 yards.  A quality red dot will work for me.  Who said anything about a muzzleloader. ;)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 26, 2021, 08:52:15 AM
I'd probably order the Viper PST 1-4 if I was deadset on a scope vs a red dot. Have Vortex fix it at 1x.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mtnwalker on March 26, 2021, 08:54:32 AM
I'd probably order the Viper PST 1-4 if I was deadset on a scope vs a red dot. Have Vortex fix it at 1x.

When I asked vortex if there was a way to do that they said no. Maybe I just got a newb CS rep.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on March 26, 2021, 01:17:54 PM
I'd probably order the Viper PST 1-4 if I was deadset on a scope vs a red dot. Have Vortex fix it at 1x.

When I asked vortex if there was a way to do that they said no. Maybe I just got a newb CS rep.

Acetone numbers off, and a drop off  in weld on the 1x position problem solved , still donít wAnt scopes but that would do what your thinking and vortex wonít do that for you
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 27, 2021, 05:58:26 AM
Just sent a note to manufacturer, trying to get a timeline on a red dot sight I ordered from OP Febr. 15, that was just bumped back again to August delivery.   :bash:  More options designed for muzzleloaders out there than crossbows.  However, the ammunition is easy to find.   :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Magnum_Willys on March 27, 2021, 09:45:15 AM
I'd probably order the Viper PST 1-4 if I was deadset on a scope vs a red dot. Have Vortex fix it at 1x.

Like was said, jb weld at 1x, sharpie over the other markings. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: fire*guy on March 27, 2021, 03:43:47 PM
Anyone listen to the meeting ?  Scopes ? Yes ? No ?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Russ McDonald on March 27, 2021, 04:08:56 PM
Anyone listen to the meeting ?  Scopes ? Yes ? No ?
They don't decide until April 9.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: fire*guy on March 27, 2021, 04:23:37 PM
I thought the idea was for the committee to hear the general public and then creat a general recommendation to the game department for the April final meeting for possibly changing the regulations?
Maybe Im way off ?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 27, 2021, 05:46:26 PM
Wanted to listen but been to busy playing like a working man.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Russ McDonald on March 28, 2021, 07:33:03 AM
I thought the idea was for the committee to hear the general public and then creat a general recommendation to the game department for the April final meeting for possibly changing the regulations?
Maybe Im way off ?
No this was the presentation from wdfw to the committee.   The committee them decided whether the rules will be adopted or they'll the agency go back to the drawing board.  I was on till 3 just after the turkey proposals. Most everthing you all have talked about in this thread was brought up by the commision

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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BigTines on March 28, 2021, 08:10:39 AM
Looks like it passed at the meeting. Better buy your 1x scope now!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Russ McDonald on March 28, 2021, 08:58:14 AM
Lol nothing was passed.  I sat on that Zoom meeting for over 8 hours.  It was the agency bringing their proposals they want to push and then public comment and questions from the commision.  That being said 9 times out of 10 the commision is going to approve what the agency brought forward.  My thoughts from Friday was they like hearing public comments but they don't care about them because they are going to do what they want.  I tell you what the commision did not like them putting all the proposals together under one WAC in the last poll they had.  They said that there was no way to put you like one thing and not the other.  The agency siad that was what the comments were for.  Commision asked was that spelled out in the poll and all I saw was shoulder shruggs from the agency reps.

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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on March 28, 2021, 09:08:30 AM
Here is what was presented...

Some other interesting stuff also.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-03/7_huntingrestrictionsss.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1n2Yjnp7ccaLjJM5fBmDY3_tR5L9wT_uPp8wh1qw7JixQay99y6zIHOoM
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 28, 2021, 10:49:56 AM
Lol nothing was passed.  I sat on that Zoom meeting for over 8 hours.  It was the agency bringing their proposals they want to push and then public comment and questions from the commision.  That being said 9 times out of 10 the commision is going to approve what the agency brought forward.  My thoughts from Friday was they like hearing public comments but they don't care about them because they are going to do what they want.  I tell you what the commision did not like them putting all the proposals together under one WAC in the last poll they had.  They said that there was no way to put you like one thing and not the other.  The agency siad that was what the comments were for.  Commision asked was that spelled out in the poll and all I saw was shoulder shruggs from the agency reps.

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Are you suggesting everything is going to stand at status quo?  No scopes?  No crossbows?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jrebel on March 28, 2021, 10:53:19 AM
Lol nothing was passed.  I sat on that Zoom meeting for over 8 hours.  It was the agency bringing their proposals they want to push and then public comment and questions from the commision.  That being said 9 times out of 10 the commision is going to approve what the agency brought forward.  My thoughts from Friday was they like hearing public comments but they don't care about them because they are going to do what they want.  I tell you what the commision did not like them putting all the proposals together under one WAC in the last poll they had.  They said that there was no way to put you like one thing and not the other.  The agency siad that was what the comments were for.  Commision asked was that spelled out in the poll and all I saw was shoulder shruggs from the agency reps.

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Are you suggesting everything is going to stand at status quo?  No scopes?  No crossbows?

I took the comment as they will accept what was proposed in most cases.  So yes with scopes and crossbows.   :dunno:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Russ McDonald on March 28, 2021, 12:15:41 PM
Lol nothing was passed.  I sat on that Zoom meeting for over 8 hours.  It was the agency bringing their proposals they want to push and then public comment and questions from the commision.  That being said 9 times out of 10 the commision is going to approve what the agency brought forward.  My thoughts from Friday was they like hearing public comments but they don't care about them because they are going to do what they want.  I tell you what the commision did not like them putting all the proposals together under one WAC in the last poll they had.  They said that there was no way to put you like one thing and not the other.  The agency siad that was what the comments were for.  Commision asked was that spelled out in the poll and all I saw was shoulder shruggs from the agency reps.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk





Are you suggesting everything is going to stand at status quo?  No scopes?  No crossbows?

I took the comment as they will accept what was proposed in most cases.  So yes with scopes and crossbows.   :dunno:
Yup exactly.  What ever WDFW proposes that is what passes. 

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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 253shotgunner on March 28, 2021, 12:29:14 PM
"The primary purpose of this proposal is to allow the use of technologies for archery equipment and muzzleloading firearms that have previously been unlawful. It also allows for hunters to use dogs to track wounded game. More specifically, amendments include:
1. Allowing the use of 1x or red dot scopes on muzzleloading firearms."

Red Dot Scope on a muzzleloader? I had no idea that was in play. I got like four of them!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Russ McDonald on March 28, 2021, 01:59:41 PM
"The primary purpose of this proposal is to allow the use of technologies for archery equipment and muzzleloading firearms that have previously been unlawful. It also allows for hunters to use dogs to track wounded game. More specifically, amendments include:
1. Allowing the use of 1x or red dot scopes on muzzleloading firearms."

Red Dot Scope on a muzzleloader? I had no idea that was in play. I got like four of them!
They put the red dot in because they make them in 1x.  They isn't many straight up 1x scopes.

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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 28, 2021, 02:06:09 PM
Just found my my 1x scope.  Should be here by the end of the week.  Will be all sighted in for spring bear.   :tup:  Might as well get a trial run.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: lazydrifter on March 28, 2021, 02:19:54 PM
Just found my my 1x scope.  Should be here by the end of the week.  Will be all sighted in for spring bear.   :tup:  Might as well get a trial run.

What did you buy.   Curious.  Not seeing much out there.  A few Hawke crossbow scopes is about all other than red dots.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: headshot5 on March 28, 2021, 02:26:09 PM
I see there is a weaver K1 on ebay.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Magnum_Willys on March 28, 2021, 02:50:15 PM
I see there is a weaver K1 on ebay.

Bought one there the other day, waiting for it to arrive.  fingers crossed it arrives and works.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 28, 2021, 02:59:30 PM
I see there is a weaver K1 on ebay.

Bought one there the other day, waiting for it to arrive.  fingers crossed it arrives and works.
If there are any issues, there's a guy in Montana that specializes in bringing them back up to like new. I haven't used him, but considering sending him one soon.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 28, 2021, 03:24:01 PM
Just found my my 1x scope.  Should be here by the end of the week.  Will be all sighted in for spring bear.   :tup:  Might as well get a trial run.

What did you buy.   Curious.  Not seeing much out there.  A few Hawke crossbow scopes is about all other than red dots.

That was it.  Until OP comes thru with the Red dot I ordered.  But a crossbow is what I will be hunting with.  Still not sure I need a 1x.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: lazydrifter on March 28, 2021, 08:26:02 PM
Well there are scopes available on the used market.  I posted a want to buy on another forum today and picked up three 1X scopes.   A new Vortex, a Traditions and a Pentax Lightseeker SG.  All at very good prices.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Pathfinder101 on March 29, 2021, 08:05:26 AM
Well there are scopes available on the used market.  I posted a want to buy on another forum today and picked up three 1X scopes.   A new Vortex, a Traditions and a Pentax Lightseeker SG.  All at very good prices.
Are these red dots, or reticles?  I am not finding much that isn't red dot...
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on March 29, 2021, 08:51:52 AM
Well there are scopes available on the used market.  I posted a want to buy on another forum today and picked up three 1X scopes.   A new Vortex, a Traditions and a Pentax Lightseeker SG.  All at very good prices.
Are these red dots, or reticles?  I am not finding much that isn't red dot...

Thatís because the hunt wa crowd are buying them all up off eBay lol
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Mtnwalker on March 29, 2021, 09:01:44 AM
I'd probably order the Viper PST 1-4 if I was deadset on a scope vs a red dot. Have Vortex fix it at 1x.

Like was said, jb weld at 1x, sharpie over the other markings.

I'm wondering if there is potential to damage anything doing jb weld? I remember once using JB weld on 1/8 in. painted sheet metal and it melted the paint off the opposite side. Not sure if it was heat or chemical reaction or what
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jrebel on March 29, 2021, 01:21:09 PM
If you can't find a "scope" then buy a red dot.....it will work just fine.  Get one that allows you to change reticle design and has a minimum 2 MOA dot, if not a 1 MOA dot.  Sig Sauer Romeo 4 comes to mind.   :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on March 29, 2021, 01:32:12 PM
Just ordered a Thompson center 1x32, $165 shipped. Optics planet
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jrebel on March 29, 2021, 01:45:06 PM
Just ordered a Thompson center 1x32, $165 shipped. Optics planet

Good luck.....mine has been backordered for over 4 months.  I'm thinking it is not coming.  I found two used Nikons and snatched them up quick.  If I were you, I would be looking for a second option. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on March 29, 2021, 01:52:26 PM
Just ordered a Thompson center 1x32, $165 shipped. Optics planet

Good luck.....mine has been backordered for over 4 months.  I'm thinking it is not coming.  I found two used Nikons and snatched them up quick.  If I were you, I would be looking for a second option.

you got one for each of us?

Excellent!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jrebel on March 29, 2021, 02:04:59 PM
Just ordered a Thompson center 1x32, $165 shipped. Optics planet

Good luck.....mine has been backordered for over 4 months.  I'm thinking it is not coming.  I found two used Nikons and snatched them up quick.  If I were you, I would be looking for a second option.

you got one for each of us?

Excellent!

Your gonna have to fight my 11 y.o. boy for his.....and he is a ferocious little turd.   :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: trophyhunt on March 29, 2021, 02:06:12 PM
So is this a 100% yes on the 1x scope for muzzy?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on March 29, 2021, 02:10:50 PM
Just ordered a Thompson center 1x32, $165 shipped. Optics planet

Good luck.....mine has been backordered for over 4 months.  I'm thinking it is not coming.  I found two used Nikons and snatched them up quick.  If I were you, I would be looking for a second option.

👍 got a 1x24 sightron coming too
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jrebel on March 29, 2021, 02:11:17 PM
So is this a 100% yes on the 1x scope for muzzy?

Not that I have heard of.....just anticipating so stocked up early.  If I'm wrong I can always use them on the Muzzy for general season or put them on some .22's. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bob33 on March 29, 2021, 02:21:52 PM
Just ordered a Thompson center 1x32, $165 shipped. Optics planet

Good luck.....mine has been backordered for over 4 months.  I'm thinking it is not coming.  I found two used Nikons and snatched them up quick.  If I were you, I would be looking for a second option.
Unfortunately, that reminded me of this post.

https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,257120.msg3505066.html#msg3505066

True that. I've done a lot of business with them in the past and optic planet. I am done with optic planet cause of there dishonest sales they are doing. I'm about done with powder valley.

AGREE letting you go on back order status forever don't work for me
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 29, 2021, 03:14:56 PM
Just ordered a Thompson center 1x32, $165 shipped. Optics planet

Good luck.....mine has been backordered for over 4 months.  I'm thinking it is not coming.  I found two used Nikons and snatched them up quick.  If I were you, I would be looking for a second option. 
That's exactly why I just ordered from Ebay for delivery by end of week.  Ordered from OP in February for March delivery, changed to July delivery, now August or who knows when.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: lazydrifter on March 29, 2021, 04:38:01 PM
Well there are scopes available on the used market.  I posted a want to buy on another forum today and picked up three 1X scopes.   A new Vortex, a Traditions and a Pentax Lightseeker SG.  All at very good prices.
Are these red dots, or reticles?  I am not finding much that isn't red dot...
These are all scopes. With Reticles.   Most manufacturers have discontinued the 1X scopes.  I've heard that TC 1X scope has been discontinued. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on March 29, 2021, 06:14:29 PM
Well there are scopes available on the used market.  I posted a want to buy on another forum today and picked up three 1X scopes.   A new Vortex, a Traditions and a Pentax Lightseeker SG.  All at very good prices.
Are these red dots, or reticles?  I am not finding much that isn't red dot...
These are all scopes. With Reticles.   Most manufacturers have discontinued the 1X scopes.  I've heard that TC 1X scope has been discontinued. 
That's my understanding also, actually discontinued several years ago.  If you guys ordered TC 1x scopes they either JUST brought them back or there is a screw up at Optics Planet.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Pathfinder101 on March 30, 2021, 10:22:32 AM
Well there are scopes available on the used market.  I posted a want to buy on another forum today and picked up three 1X scopes.   A new Vortex, a Traditions and a Pentax Lightseeker SG.  All at very good prices.
Are these red dots, or reticles?  I am not finding much that isn't red dot...
These are all scopes. With Reticles.   Most manufacturers have discontinued the 1X scopes.  I've heard that TC 1X scope has been discontinued. 
That's my understanding also, actually discontinued several years ago.  If you guys ordered TC 1x scopes they either JUST brought them back or there is a screw up at Optics Planet.

I think the words "screwed up" and "Optics Planet" are synonymous.  I have ridden that pony before.  Not even looking there...
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: trophyhunt on April 01, 2021, 06:58:20 AM
Ok, so is red dot better than a cross hair type scope?  What do you guys think of the vortex viper red dot?  They say it's for a pistol, but will it work on my CVA optima, and work to 100 yards out?  Never had a red dot before.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bobcat on April 01, 2021, 07:26:35 AM
I'm looking at red dot sights too. Since I can't find a regular 1x scope. Not sure about the Vortex one. From reviews on Midway I'm looking at the UltraDot brand. They're priced a little higher than I really wanted to spend, but a lot less than Aimpoint or other popular brands.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on April 01, 2021, 07:40:24 AM
I'm by no means an expert on red dots ,
If it where me I would look for red dots made for shotgun or rifle . Just for better chance of it holding zero.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 01, 2021, 08:29:33 AM
I bought this for $26 on amazon, unscrewed the lens on each end and works great.  Fixed 1x power, adjustable crosshairs and no glass to fog! 

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: polishstunner on April 01, 2021, 08:37:05 AM
This one is on eBay.  I need to find a nickle plated muzzy to match it.  Growing up, I had good luck with Tasco.

85 bucks.  Im going for it. :dunno:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: jrebel on April 01, 2021, 08:41:10 AM
If I was needing a red dot....I would look for a one MOA reticle.  The sig sauer Romeo 4 would be one I would consider.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ridgeratt on April 01, 2021, 08:41:36 AM
I think I just hit the lotto.  :tung:

Found one of these in my under ware drawer. Have it mounted on a contender barrel that I haven't sighted in yet.

https://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Trophy-Green-Interchangeable-Reticle/dp/B000GEWB4S

Now I just need some gorilla tape and I can mount it on my sidelock and be "Golden"
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on April 01, 2021, 08:45:48 AM
I think red dots will work great but if that battery dies it would be better to have a scope with a reticle that is still black if the battery does die. I would prefer fine cross hairs with some kind of BDC but I might look into a detachable red dot that I could take off and use my peep sight if needed. If the rail would sit low enough. Probably next year. Hopefully it doesnít pass though. Iím still on the no glass/electronics for muzzy team. Keep those rifle hunters out of the muzzy season.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: lazydrifter on April 01, 2021, 02:30:49 PM
This one is on eBay.  I need to find a nickle plated muzzy to match it.  Growing up, I had good luck with Tasco.

85 bucks.  Im going for it. :dunno:
That looks like a pistol scope. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: polishstunner on April 01, 2021, 02:40:45 PM
We will make it work.  Its too beautiful to not. :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on April 01, 2021, 07:12:56 PM
 Experimental, but I threw one of these on the old MK-85 last night.

https://www.brownells.com/optics-mounting/electronic-sights/red-dot-sights/ar-1x-prism-sight-prod66550.aspx
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 01, 2021, 08:12:25 PM
That is one on my short list. I just wonder if itís to high to float your face off your stick to get a good sight picture?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on April 01, 2021, 08:24:51 PM
That is one on my short list. I just wonder if itís to high to float your face off your stick to get a good sight picture?

It is, going to need a raised cheek piece... probably go with one of those old school leather ones, you know to keep with the traditional aspect of muzzleloaders..  :)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 01, 2021, 11:40:45 PM
That is one on my short list. I just wonder if itís to high to float your face off your stick to get a good sight picture?

It is, going to need a raised cheek piece... probably go with one of those old school leather ones, you know to keep with the traditional aspect of muzzleloaders..  :)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07X4WPPMT/?coliid=I3FEXBC09LDNLE&colid=3HLL4O04EOEL7&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

This is the one I put in my wish list on amazon incase I do pick up a dot sight for the muzzy. I like the multiple aim points some dots like that one offers. I have a fixed 1x scope but don't like not having other hold points or dials with it.

I hoping someone does a 1x with dial or bdc reticle with the market that going to be popping up if this passes. I have been working the guys I know at sig/vortex and leupold.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 02, 2021, 03:50:44 PM
Bummer!  Got a 1x Weaver scope off ebay.  Came quick and nice to look through BUT the cross hairs have a monstrous dot at their intersection.  must be 10 moa crosshair dot.  Without the dot it would be great.

Back to the drawing board !
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bobcat on April 07, 2021, 05:10:51 PM
So it kinda sounds like the scope thing on muzzleloaders isn't going to go through this time. I guess we'll know for sure on Friday which way it's going to go.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: idahohuntr on April 07, 2021, 05:20:01 PM
So it kinda sounds like the scope thing on muzzleloaders isn't going to go through this time. I guess we'll know for sure on Friday which way it's going to go.
:yeah:
Fairly certain scopes will not be approved.  Maybe they will take another look in 3 years during the next cycle  :dunno:  Betting April 10th there are a lot of 1x scopes for sale  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bobcat on April 07, 2021, 05:25:13 PM
 :yeah: 

Glad now that I was outbid on the 1x scope on Gun Broker a couple weeks ago.  :)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: polishstunner on April 07, 2021, 05:31:19 PM
Went through 380 pages of the agenda for the 9th and woukd love to know what that is based on? Looks like it is still a proposal, based on peoples surveys.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: actionshooter on April 07, 2021, 05:44:46 PM
So it kinda sounds like the scope thing on muzzleloaders isn't going to go through this time. I guess we'll know for sure on Friday which way it's going to go.
Based on what?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 07, 2021, 05:49:04 PM
Bummer!  Got a 1x Weaver scope off ebay.  Came quick and nice to look through BUT the cross hairs have a monstrous dot at their intersection.  must be 10 moa crosshair dot.  Without the dot it would be great.

Back to the drawing board !
The crosshairs can be swapped out.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Russ McDonald on April 07, 2021, 05:56:18 PM
I am seeing that is going through.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/commission/meetings/2021/09april2021-fwc-agenda at the very end.

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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bobcat on April 07, 2021, 06:00:37 PM
So it kinda sounds like the scope thing on muzzleloaders isn't going to go through this time. I guess we'll know for sure on Friday which way it's going to go.
Based on what?

This:

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: polishstunner on April 07, 2021, 06:20:28 PM
I definitely see that.  I just dont see any mention of that anywhere on the April 9th meeting info.  Where did you find that out of curiousity and what is the date it was posted (wherever it was posted.)  After your post, I read line by line all that is posted on WDFW's site.

On a side note, I love the proposal to allow people to turn pwrmits back and get pts back within 2 weeks of season.  Found that during my reading.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jimmy33 on April 07, 2021, 06:39:02 PM
I havent seen anything either...just people stirring the pot


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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: idahohuntr on April 07, 2021, 06:46:39 PM
I havent seen anything either...just people stirring the pot


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:dunno:
Bobcat just posted the slide from the Commission agenda summary.  The fact WDFW is now recommending against moving forward with it is a huge blow...they aren't going to do that unless they have pretty good sense the Commission is/was going to reject it.  Nothing is final until April 9, but if folks can find a buyer for their 1x scopes...I'd be selling.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bobcat on April 07, 2021, 06:47:22 PM
Not stirring the pot, just letting people know what I've seen. First notice I got of it was an email from the WDFW today:

Quote
April 7, 2021
Contact: Commission office, 360-902-2267

Commission to consider 2021-23 hunting seasons, hatchery policy, hydraulic code rules

OLYMPIA Ė The Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission will make decisions on a number of topics at its April 9 virtual meeting, including setting hunting seasons for 2021-23, adopting an updated hatchery policy, establishing new rules to govern certain mining in state waters, and considering a petition to repeal restrictions on fishing from a floating vessel on a stretch of the Hoh River.

The Commission will consider adoption of 2021-23 hunting season proposals including hunting boundary changes, deer and elk seasons, waterfowl, and most game species. WDFW staff will propose the Commission postpone several proposed hunting equipment and method updates to allow staff more time to review public feedback.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: trophyhunt on April 07, 2021, 06:53:11 PM
Ohhhh, thatís interesting.  Will we see a bunch of 1x scopes for sale now??  Lol
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: lazydrifter on April 07, 2021, 06:59:34 PM
1X scope makes a super nice AR15 scope.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: John B. on April 08, 2021, 12:36:34 PM
I definitely see that.  I just dont see any mention of that anywhere on the April 9th meeting info.  Where did you find that out of curiousity and what is the date it was posted (wherever it was posted.)  After your post, I read line by line all that is posted on WDFW's site.

On a side note, I love the proposal to allow people to turn pwrmits back and get pts back within 2 weeks of season.  Found that during my reading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    It is the link Russ posted above under D. Click on 3-year season setting.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Russ McDonald on April 08, 2021, 12:44:50 PM
Goto the very end.  It is all yhe WACS they are going to submit.  On a side note no rimfire for fall turkey.

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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Stein on April 08, 2021, 12:54:24 PM
Rumor is that there were two WDFW employees betting on which of two topics would generate most pages of discussion on this forum.  Some lucky person will be enjoying a steak dinner Friday night.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: 253shotgunner on April 08, 2021, 01:36:08 PM
Rumor is that there were two WDFW employees betting on which of two topics would generate most pages of discussion on this forum.  Some lucky person will be enjoying a steak dinner Friday night.

Dang, I hope the winner contacts the OP and invites him to dinner tomorrow night! LOL
I am going to mount a RDS on both my ML rifle and pistol and test them out this summer if it passes.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Russ McDonald on April 09, 2021, 10:43:48 AM
So now that they are presenting it.  They are not moving forward with scopes on muzzle loaders.  From what I am understanding.  These are tabled for further discussion.  Could come back in 22'
 (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/83094a19903ec9f1857d66dcd64f2ea6.jpg)

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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: CBP1888 on April 09, 2021, 10:53:05 AM
I listened to the presentation and this is the just of it:
WDFW requested to not move forward with the rules presented because they need more time to process.
The WDFW does not object to the rule changes and mention that most will move forward by 2022 abs possibly a few this year.
Since the rules donít involve bag limits or seasons then the do not need to be processed at this time.
The commission was given an opportunity to comment on the WDFW recommendation and none chose to do so.
There will be no change to the rules.

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Special T on April 09, 2021, 11:53:08 AM
Rumor is that there were two WDFW employees betting on which of two topics would generate most pages of discussion on this forum.  Some lucky person will be enjoying a steak dinner Friday night.
Its always interesting talking to folks from behind the curtain.

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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Russ McDonald on April 09, 2021, 12:04:15 PM
I listened to the presentation and this is the just of it:
WDFW requested to not move forward with the rules presented because they need more time to process.
The WDFW does not object to the rule changes and mention that most will move forward by 2022 abs possibly a few this year.
Since the rules donít involve bag limits or seasons then the do not need to be processed at this time.
The commission was given an opportunity to comment on the WDFW recommendation and none chose to do so.
There will be no change to the rules.
Exactly.  That was being said right when i was writing so the talking and walking took affect.  Write post and not listen. 🤣.  I am still listening.  I do a lot of this type meetings with chapters of the NWTF.  This is sometimes a cluster.

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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: CBP1888 on April 09, 2021, 01:18:07 PM
This is the typical Government Bureaucracy.  I would have liked someone from the commission to ask what exactly is left that the WDFW needs more time to review.

Letís break it down:
A change to the WAC was proposed to allow 1x scopes.
There was a public comment period. Over 60% approved.
The proposal was changed to allow red dots.
WDFW recommended to move forward with change.
At the LAST minute a few WDFW employees decided they needed additional time to review aka we are not moving forward and it has been tabled. Unless, just maybe, because of the lack of 1x scopes theyíre going to open it up to all magnifications.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: full choke on April 09, 2021, 01:24:02 PM
Open sights  :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Russ McDonald on April 09, 2021, 01:25:21 PM
This is the typical Government Bureaucracy.  I would have liked someone from the commission to ask what exactly is left that the WDFW needs more time to review.

Letís break it down:
A change to the WAC was proposed to allow 1x scopes.
There was a public comment period. Over 60% approved.
The proposal was changed to allow red dots.
WDFW recommended to move forward with change.
At the LAST minute a few WDFW employees decided they needed additional time to review aka we are not moving forward and it has been tabled. Unless, just maybe, because of the lack of 1x scopes there going to open it up to all magnifications.
Actually there was questions from the commision in March


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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bobcat on April 09, 2021, 01:40:55 PM
Quote
Unless, just maybe, because of the lack of 1x scopes there going to open it up to all magnifications.

That's kind of what I was thinking- that perhaps the issue was 1x scopes aren't even an option to buy, except a very few used ones, so it could be that they'll go with all scopes can be used, next time there's a chance to adjust hunting regulations.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: polishstunner on April 09, 2021, 01:46:39 PM
So guys that got outbid and struggled to find them complained and got their way.  Everyone deserves a medal. 

Production of the scopes should not be a factor. 

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on April 09, 2021, 01:54:39 PM
Quote
Unless, just maybe, because of the lack of 1x scopes there going to open it up to all magnifications.

That's kind of what I was thinking- that perhaps the issue was 1x scopes aren't even an option to buy, except a very few used ones, so it could be that they'll go with all scopes can be used, next time there's a chance to adjust hunting regulations.

1x Red Dots are readily available.  One just arrived in the mail today.  And a few people been buying up 1x scopes like ammo.   :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bobcat on April 09, 2021, 01:59:07 PM
So guys that got outbid and struggled to find them complained and got their way.  Everyone deserves a medal. 

Production of the scopes should not be a factor.

It may have nothing to do with it. I have no idea. Was just speculating.

However it does seem kind of ridiculous to say we can use 1x scopes when that is not even something that people can buy. If they made it something like 4x magnification as a maximum it would be a lot better. Or even 2x or 3x would probably open up a few more options.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 09, 2021, 02:25:55 PM
So guys that got outbid and struggled to find them complained and got their way.  Everyone deserves a medal. 

Production of the scopes should not be a factor.

It may have nothing to do with it. I have no idea. Was just speculating.

However it does seem kind of ridiculous to say we can use 1x scopes when that is not even something that people can buy. If they made it something like 4x magnification as a maximum it would be a lot better. Or even 2x or 3x would probably open up a few more options.
I think the slippery slope argument has been brought up in this thread before, and if that is indeed the reasoning for tabling it i guess it was correct.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: gee_unit360 on April 09, 2021, 02:54:11 PM
Keep it primitive. If you canít see your open sights switch to modern. Just my  :twocents:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Tenkara on April 09, 2021, 03:02:22 PM
Keep it primitive. If you canít see your open sights switch to modern. Just my  :twocents:
I wouldn't consider a 209 inline close to primitive.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: full choke on April 09, 2021, 03:15:41 PM
Keep it primitive. If you canít see your open sights switch to modern. Just my  :twocents:
I wouldn't consider a 209 inline close to primitive.

Which is why they never should have allowed 209 primers.
Probably shouldn't have allowed inlines either.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on April 09, 2021, 03:21:03 PM
Quote
Unless, just maybe, because of the lack of 1x scopes there going to open it up to all magnifications.

That's kind of what I was thinking- that perhaps the issue was 1x scopes aren't even an option to buy, except a very few used ones, so it could be that they'll go with all scopes can be used, next time there's a chance to adjust hunting regulations.

As if 1x red dots arenít available all over the internet. No one should have a hard time finding glass.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: B4noon on April 09, 2021, 04:56:29 PM
Watched some of the meeting and smith and koontz almost derailed bear season with a motion to ammend luckily it didnít pass smith watch out for these 2 in the future molly and McIsaac questioned her agenda will be fun meetings coming in the future Iím sure
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: spookgus on April 09, 2021, 05:05:13 PM
FYI if your looking next year. Vintage Gun Scopes in Corvallis MT sells refurbished Weaver K1 scopes that are graded from mint to excellent and you can get on a waiting list.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bobcat on April 09, 2021, 05:52:38 PM
Looks like it's official: no scopes on muzzleloaders.

This is a Northwest Sportsman Magazine post on Facebook:
(see the text I put in bold)

Quote
COMMISSION APPROVES THREE-YEAR HUNTING PACKAGE

Following up on my previous post here on today's Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission meeting [sorry, my blog is being rEaLlY sTuPiD so I gotta post here], members also approved the 2021-23 hunting package.

Probably the most notable item is that the commission maintained status quo with the Northeast Washington late whitetail rifle hunt, following a long look at antler-point restrictions and even a later start date for most years. That means the next three years will see Nov. 6-19, Nov. 5-19 and Nov. 11-19 seasons. But noting that the issue has come up time and again over his time on the citizen panel, Chair Larry Carpenter vowed to take a deep dive into APR in the future.

While antlerless deer opportunities across Washington's eastern tier and Northeast antlerless moose permits were reduced, one more bull permit was added in a unit near the Canadian border. Mountain goat permits hunters will also be allowed to take two in certain eastern Olympic Mountains conflict zones as the state and feds continue trying to eradicate the species from the peninsula.

The commission also voted to open the 4-O Wildlife Area in Southeast Washington to general season deer and elk hunters. Before it was permit only for those groups, though open for turkeys and other game.

Speaking of upland birds, one HUGE change is that grouse season has been moved back to Sept. 15 from Sept. 1 to try and boost flock numbers. According to WDFW, mother grouse make up a strong portion of the early harvest, affecting survival of the young-of-the-year, in turn leading to a longterm population decline.  That means no more long Labor Day weekend treks to the grouse woods for now, but the commission did extend the end of season through Jan. 15. One hunter had requested a spring "hooter" season, like in Alaska for male blues, as a trade, but that didn't get traction.

There were also some hunting proposals that didn't make the final cut. Following public comment in late March, WDFW staffers pulled several ideas centered around equipment, specifically: allowing hunters to use a dog to track down a wounded deer or elk; allowing a red dot or 1x scope for muzzleloaders; and allowing rimfire rifles for fall turkey hunting, among others.

And then there was a long discussion about the wording of the fall bear proposal, with one motion made to make it a one-year, 2021 rule, but it was eventually passed as WDFW originally proposed.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: teanawayslayer on April 09, 2021, 06:08:13 PM
Looks like it's official: no scopes on muzzleloaders.

This is a Northwest Sportsman Magazine post on Facebook:
(see the text I put in bold)

Quote
COMMISSION APPROVES THREE-YEAR HUNTING PACKAGE

Following up on my previous post here on today's Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission meeting [sorry, my blog is being rEaLlY sTuPiD so I gotta post here], members also approved the 2021-23 hunting package.

Probably the most notable item is that the commission maintained status quo with the Northeast Washington late whitetail rifle hunt, following a long look at antler-point restrictions and even a later start date for most years. That means the next three years will see Nov. 6-19, Nov. 5-19 and Nov. 11-19 seasons. But noting that the issue has come up time and again over his time on the citizen panel, Chair Larry Carpenter vowed to take a deep dive into APR in the future.

While antlerless deer opportunities across Washington's eastern tier and Northeast antlerless moose permits were reduced, one more bull permit was added in a unit near the Canadian border. Mountain goat permits hunters will also be allowed to take two in certain eastern Olympic Mountains conflict zones as the state and feds continue trying to eradicate the species from the peninsula.

The commission also voted to open the 4-O Wildlife Area in Southeast Washington to general season deer and elk hunters. Before it was permit only for those groups, though open for turkeys and other game.

Speaking of upland birds, one HUGE change is that grouse season has been moved back to Sept. 15 from Sept. 1 to try and boost flock numbers. According to WDFW, mother grouse make up a strong portion of the early harvest, affecting survival of the young-of-the-year, in turn leading to a longterm population decline.  That means no more long Labor Day weekend treks to the grouse woods for now, but the commission did extend the end of season through Jan. 15. One hunter had requested a spring "hooter" season, like in Alaska for male blues, as a trade, but that didn't get traction.

There were also some hunting proposals that didn't make the final cut. Following public comment in late March, WDFW staffers pulled several ideas centered around equipment, specifically: allowing hunters to use a dog to track down a wounded deer or elk; allowing a red dot or 1x scope for muzzleloaders; and allowing rimfire rifles for fall turkey hunting, among others.

And then there was a long discussion about the wording of the fall bear proposal, with one motion made to make it a one-year, 2021 rule, but it was eventually passed as WDFW originally proposed.
keep it primitive!!! :tup:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: dilleytech on April 09, 2021, 06:28:00 PM
Hurray for an open sights only gun season!!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Bucks2Ducks on April 09, 2021, 06:28:45 PM
 :tup:
Hurray for an open sights only gun season!!
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Russ McDonald on April 09, 2021, 06:47:50 PM
Watched some of the meeting and smith and koontz almost derailed bear season with a motion to ammend luckily it didnít pass smith watch out for these 2 in the future molly and McIsaac questioned her agenda will be fun meetings coming in the future Iím sure
That was an ordeal for sure.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: swanderek on April 09, 2021, 06:49:00 PM
Thank god
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: GWP on April 09, 2021, 07:03:38 PM
Dang it!
Now I will have to remove my 7-24 50mm scope, IR illuminator, video capable laser red dot range finding auto adjusting bullet drop tripod mounted 50Ē barreled 75 cal recoil less Ďmuzzle loadedí primitive black powder substitute shooting iron with the remote electronic firing pin.
Dang it!  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 09, 2021, 07:07:50 PM
Watched some of the meeting and smith and koontz almost derailed bear season with a motion to ammend luckily it didnít pass smith watch out for these 2 in the future molly and McIsaac questioned her agenda will be fun meetings coming in the future Iím sure
That was an ordeal for sure.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk
Thread jack.

What happened with bear season and the commission?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: bkaech on April 09, 2021, 08:34:23 PM
AWESOME!  I agree with keeping it open sights. This thread and the talk of how these 1x scopes could help only makes me more confident in my opinion of keeping them off of muzzleloaders. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: usmc74 on April 12, 2021, 06:28:15 PM
WDFW newsletter says equipment changes not approved pending more research (or something like that)
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Dan-o on April 12, 2021, 06:30:21 PM
This should make it easier for me to find a good 1X scope to throw on my muzzleloader. 
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: kentrek on April 12, 2021, 06:46:20 PM
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9lcGljb3V0ZG9vcnMubGlic3luLmNvbS9yc3M/episode/YjBmMmZjOGEtNzM1Ni00MzA2LWIzYWUtY2FmYjliMzBhODFm?ep=14

Here's a good listen regarding tech and hunting opportunities

1st half is talking bout sheep but the 2nd half of the podcast talks alot about new technology & hunting
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: usmc74 on April 12, 2021, 06:53:08 PM
I did just purchase a Leupold RDS.  1 moa dot that looks great.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on April 13, 2021, 02:41:12 PM
So, maybe crossbows still a go during muzzleloader season?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Pathfinder101 on April 13, 2021, 03:18:42 PM
This should make it easier for me to find a good 1X scope to throw on my muzzleloader.

 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Keebler213 on May 04, 2021, 08:41:46 PM
Watched some of the meeting and smith and koontz almost derailed bear season with a motion to ammend luckily it didnít pass smith watch out for these 2 in the future molly and McIsaac questioned her agenda will be fun meetings coming in the future Iím sure

Where do you watch the meetings? Curious for future.
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Russ McDonald on May 05, 2021, 04:10:50 AM
Usually listed on the WDFW website under commision I believe.

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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Special T on May 05, 2021, 11:52:13 AM
Watched some of the meeting and smith and koontz almost derailed bear season with a motion to ammend luckily it didnít pass smith watch out for these 2 in the future molly and McIsaac questioned her agenda will be fun meetings coming in the future Iím sure

Where do you watch the meetings? Curious for future.

Commissioners Lorna Smith & Fred Points have not been confirmed by the Senate, and they will derail predator management.

Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: The Big Game Hunter on May 14, 2021, 05:46:20 PM
Sounds like no change to the current regulations then?
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: Jimmy33 on May 14, 2021, 07:02:39 PM
Sounds like no change to the current regulations then?
Not this year


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Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: millerwheeler on May 23, 2021, 09:07:35 PM
Watched some of the meeting and smith and koontz almost derailed bear season with a motion to ammend luckily it didnít pass smith watch out for these 2 in the future molly and McIsaac questioned her agenda will be fun meetings coming in the future Iím sure

Where do you watch the meetings? Curious for future.

Commissioners Lorna Smith & Fred Points have not been confirmed by the Senate, and they will derail predator management.

Have they come out and said  this and  anywhere I can read up on there  positions ,thank you
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: mpsawyer on July 01, 2021, 11:16:04 PM
I totally understand the slippery slope argument and don't necessarily disagree. I hunt muzzy deer and still have a 3 pt min. So I guess we all have to pick our own poison.
I can't just help feeling like this state has always defaulted to managing hunters rather than wildlife resources. As long as this is the way we manage, might as well have scopes. When the sucess rates go up and hunt days go down, hunters will have more choices to make.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Scopes for 2021 WA Muzzleloader season?
Post by: hunter399 on July 02, 2021, 05:55:06 AM
Ya still on the fence with this topic.
I'm sure a few people already had there scopes mounted and ready to go.
More opportunities for hunter is always a great thing,
In the same sentence can our game animals handle more opportunities for hunters. It's a hard question to answer.
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