Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on May 27, 2021, 08:37:38 AM
I think we can all agree on what this truck will not be good for...
Long Distance/Heavy load towing (Its a half ton, nobody wants to use a half ton to tow 10k lbs regardless)
Current 3/4 ton and 1 ton drivers
Rural and remote living situations with hard winters (Canada, Alaska, Dakotas, Montana, etc) They are not targeting this market.
Trips into remote areas (more than 150 miles from town)
There might be a few more I cant think of right now, but lets not beat the above mentioned to death.
Based on the information available, I can think of one or two trips I typically take a year with my current truck, that this vehicle would not be suited for (over 150 miles 1 way into very remote/rugged country)
I can do everything else with it I currently do, so maybe it would be a good option once more information and real world tests have been conducted.
Post by: 7mmfan on May 27, 2021, 08:51:41 AM
Post by: Igor on May 27, 2021, 09:02:53 AM
It would be lunacy to buy an electric vehicle now! The Ford Lighting is going to be a huge flop, outdated before it even hits the floor.
Post by: Skillet on May 27, 2021, 09:07:30 AM
Post by: jackelope on May 27, 2021, 09:15:28 AM
The diesel F150's were a flop here. Not sure about other areas of the country.
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on May 27, 2021, 09:28:50 AM
If you ask me, this truck will be regionally successful. It's not going to be popular in Montana. It will be popular in lots of western Washington. We've sold every powerboost(hybrid) F150 we've received and we sold them fast. We sell and service tons of hybrids whether they're the traditional hybrids or the plug in hybrids(cars and SUV's and now trucks). I think it'll be a success in certain areas and a flop in others. It's definitely not for everyone. I can tell you for sure that there are crap tons of people asking about them here.
The diesel F150's were a flop here. Not sure about other areas of the country.
You think its better to wait for them to be on the roads for awhile before getting one? I reserved one, but my 2012 Ecoboost still didn't have all the kinks worked out yet.
Post by: Igor on May 27, 2021, 09:41:20 AM
Post by: baker5150 on May 27, 2021, 09:43:31 AM
With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity. Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.
Post by: jackelope on May 27, 2021, 09:54:50 AM
https://rivian.com/
Post by: Stein on May 27, 2021, 09:56:14 AM
It'll be fun trying to explain to Homeowners that we can't install the new Ford 80 amp charge station they just bought.
With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity. Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.
Just more work for you to upgrade their panel. My house came with 100A service and one of the first things I did was put a new panel in to support the projects. Houses are basically built to supply the minimum power they need at the time they are built and if you want to add AC, spa or whatever it could be an issue.
That said, there is more room within the 100 or 200 A panel with the energy saving stuff we have today coupled with natural gas.
The charging stations are getting very smart, I expect them to be able to run at whatever capacity is available. More manufacturers are looking at combining the functionality of EV, PV, battery storage as well as traditional stuff like gas backup generators.
Post by: Igor on May 27, 2021, 10:03:31 AM
There's a Rivian dealership going in 4 blocks away from us.
https://rivian.com/
Yeah, I've been watching that one, too. Very interesting company, and interesting technology, as well.
Post by: kselkhunter on May 27, 2021, 10:07:48 AM
There are charging stations all over the place, including rural areas that many people have no clue even exist. Parking lot of a remote mountain pass. Tucked into the corner of a Dairy Queen parking lot in a rural eastern town, etc. And more pop up every month. So range to the east side rural areas may be farther than some realize.....
The real question will be Ford's strategy on fast charging network. Tesla spent the time and money to put Supercharger stations everywhere such that you can now drive all over the country with a Model S. Would have been cool to see Ford license the Tesla charging technology and cut a deal to let a Lightning top up at a Supercharger station. Otherwise you're stuck with regular Chargepoint chargers and fast DC chargers....which isn't going to cut it for long distance trips as those are multi-hour recharges compared to a 30 minute charge in a Tesla at a SuperCharger station....I haven't looked closely enough at the Lightning to get a good gauge on the charging strategy. But it'll be awhile before a network of faster charging stations is built out. I'm friends with the VP of Engineering at Chargepoint, and they're moving quickly to install the next gen fast chargers....but it's going to take time to get them all out.
I leased a Ford Focus electric from 2014 to 2016 as my commuter vehicle. That was a fun little car, and the lease deals they were running back then made it a no-brainer....I put the miles on the Focus electric instead of my Tundra. Ford did a really good job with the development on that EV in terms of user interface, etc. I really liked it. You learn where all the charging stations are, and eventually get over the range anxiety. Having a 300 mile range of a Tesla or a Ford Lightning (the upgraded model) is a game changer from the 7 year older technology I was driving.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on May 27, 2021, 10:17:07 AM
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on May 27, 2021, 10:28:38 AM
The real question will be Ford's strategy on fast charging network. Tesla spent the time and money to put Supercharger stations everywhere such that you can now drive all over the country with a Model S. Would have been cool to see Ford license the Tesla charging technology and cut a deal to let a Lightning top up at a Supercharger station. Otherwise you're stuck with regular Chargepoint chargers and fast DC chargers....which isn't going to cut it for long distance trips as those are multi-hour recharges compared to a 30 minute charge in a Tesla at a SuperCharger station....I haven't looked closely enough at the Lightning to get a good gauge on the charging strategy. But it'll be awhile before a network of faster charging stations is built out. I'm friends with the VP of Engineering at Chargepoint, and they're moving quickly to install the next gen fast chargers....but it's going to take time to get them all out.
I do not understand this either. Why didn't they standardize the charging stations? Seems like a no brainer to me.
Post by: baker5150 on May 27, 2021, 10:31:37 AM
It'll be fun trying to explain to Homeowners that we can't install the new Ford 80 amp charge station they just bought.
With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity. Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.
Just more work for you to upgrade their panel. My house came with 100A service and one of the first things I did was put a new panel in to support the projects. Houses are basically built to supply the minimum power they need at the time they are built and if you want to add AC, spa or whatever it could be an issue.
That said, there is more room within the 100 or 200 A panel with the energy saving stuff we have today coupled with natural gas.
The charging stations are getting very smart, I expect them to be able to run at whatever capacity is available. More manufacturers are looking at combining the functionality of EV, PV, battery storage as well as traditional stuff like gas backup generators.
This is the issue. As NG (and LP) become phased out (Seattle, Bellingham, etc.) we are forced to go to Heat Pumps for DHW and Heating (and soon clothes drying). Although low-load tech is available thru VRV, it is still expensive to install. So to meet code, we are seeing high demand systems.
We are see the majority of these issues in multi family and Condo situations. MF and Condos are notorious for Electric Resistive heat and DHH coupled with 100 amp panels.
(Not sure why, but we install a TON of EV chargers in Condos)
Older buildings are the biggest concern. EV stations and old parking garages don't mesh well together. HOA's don't like to hear their service won't support them without major, costly upgrades.
High LR ratings are an issue as well, but that isn't an EV charging issue, more of a "we didn't think of that when we wrote the code" issue. It's become VRV or nothing for older communities and some more remote areas.
I hope sales lots will educate buyers on the issues they may face before purchasing. Most can be easily overcome, but at an expense.
Post by: kselkhunter on May 27, 2021, 10:45:31 AM
I do not understand this either. Why didn't they standardize the charging stations? Seems like a no brainer to me.
[/quote]
There are standards for charging stations. Those standards are just currently slower than a Tesla proprietary charging system. The next gen charging standards are getting closer to the speed of a Tesla charger, but still not quite as fast....and all those charging companies now have to go update their charging stations to the next faster standard. Tesla offered to license their charging IP to anybody that wanted it....but nobody really took them up on the offer. I think the challenge is it's pointless if Tesla also didn't offer a reasonable cost option to use their SuperCharger stations to other car manufacturers (I don't know what Tesla was offering in that license). Tesla has already been caught by multiple competitors now in terms of the EV car technology itself: range, features, etc.. Tesla's strength is in their fast chargers and their extensive nationwide supercharging network.
2022 is a big year for rollouts of competitive EV solutions, with multiple companies now offering Tesla's range.
Post by: Stein on May 27, 2021, 10:51:12 AM
They can also sell you the adapter cable so you can charge at other EV charging sites.
I think once EV charging becomes commercially viable you will see a big push for more compatibility.
Post by: Angry Perch on May 27, 2021, 10:53:37 AM
It'll be fun trying to explain to Homeowners that we can't install the new Ford 80 amp charge station they just bought.
With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity. Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.
Interesting point. I'd assume new homes, at least higher end homes, are being wired with this in mind?
Post by: Stein on May 27, 2021, 11:00:09 AM
It'll be fun trying to explain to Homeowners that we can't install the new Ford 80 amp charge station they just bought.
With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity. Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.
Interesting point. I'd assume new homes, at least higher end homes, are being wired with this in mind?
Not really. It's an added cost for the panel, conductors to the transformer and transformer, so I would be surprised to see a house "EV ready". It might be more of a thing in the future, but I don't think people are even aware of it right now so no builder is going to incur the cost.
When I upgraded, it wasn't a huge deal but I have a transformer in my front yard and underground to the panel. The new panel was maybe $200, another $150 for service conductors, throw in $200 for AFCI/GFCI breakers and a half day to pull it all together. Permit was $110 if I remember right and the power company didn't charge to come make the new connection at the transformer. Took them all of 15 minutes.
The question is how many homes can upgrade before the utility needs a new transformer? Even then, if they know they can sell the power, they will bring in the conductors, EVs are a dream come true for the utility that has faced decades of pressure to sell less power and more energy efficient loads.
Post by: baker5150 on May 27, 2021, 11:11:49 AM
It'll be fun trying to explain to Homeowners that we can't install the new Ford 80 amp charge station they just bought.
With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity. Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.
Interesting point. I'd assume new homes, at least higher end homes, are being wired with this in mind?
Not really. It's an added cost for the panel, conductors to the transformer and transformer, so I would be surprised to see a house "EV ready". It might be more of a thing in the future, but I don't think people are even aware of it right now so no builder is going to incur the cost.
When I upgraded, it wasn't a huge deal but I have a transformer in my front yard and underground to the panel. The new panel was maybe $200, another $150 for service conductors, throw in $200 for AFCI/GFCI breakers and a half day to pull it all together. Permit was $110 if I remember right and the power company didn't charge to come make the new connection at the transformer. Took them all of 15 minutes.
The question is how many homes can upgrade before the utility needs a new transformer? Even then, if they know they can sell the power, they will bring in the conductors, EVs are a dream come true for the utility that has faced decades of pressure to sell less power and more energy efficient loads.
:yeah:
We aren't seeing builders want to add EV options. Solar communities seam to be the cool new thing.
I see EV stations optioning an Energy Credit in the near future. Maybe 1/2 a point. That'll get builders to start adding them in.
Post by: kselkhunter on May 27, 2021, 11:22:40 AM
The challenge is the standard chargers are all deployed and managed by third party companies like Chargepoint, Blink, etc. I'm curious to see if the big auto companies like Ford, GM, etc. start buying up the charging companies or deploying their own versions. Tesla spent years and a pile of money deploying their 25,000+ superchargers along most major highways. Will be interesting to watch the next few years play out.....as having a 300 mile range car that you have to stop for an hour and a half to charge while on a trip is not a feasible plan.
Post by: KFhunter on May 27, 2021, 11:43:49 AM
It took legislative action to get standardized cell phone chargers.
The real question will be Ford's strategy on fast charging network. Tesla spent the time and money to put Supercharger stations everywhere such that you can now drive all over the country with a Model S. Would have been cool to see Ford license the Tesla charging technology and cut a deal to let a Lightning top up at a Supercharger station. Otherwise you're stuck with regular Chargepoint chargers and fast DC chargers....which isn't going to cut it for long distance trips as those are multi-hour recharges compared to a 30 minute charge in a Tesla at a SuperCharger station....I haven't looked closely enough at the Lightning to get a good gauge on the charging strategy. But it'll be awhile before a network of faster charging stations is built out. I'm friends with the VP of Engineering at Chargepoint, and they're moving quickly to install the next gen fast chargers....but it's going to take time to get them all out.
I do not understand this either. Why didn't they standardize the charging stations? Seems like a no brainer to me.
Post by: Igor on May 27, 2021, 11:51:29 AM
It took legislative action to get standardized cell phone chargers.
The real question will be Ford's strategy on fast charging network. Tesla spent the time and money to put Supercharger stations everywhere such that you can now drive all over the country with a Model S. Would have been cool to see Ford license the Tesla charging technology and cut a deal to let a Lightning top up at a Supercharger station. Otherwise you're stuck with regular Chargepoint chargers and fast DC chargers....which isn't going to cut it for long distance trips as those are multi-hour recharges compared to a 30 minute charge in a Tesla at a SuperCharger station....I haven't looked closely enough at the Lightning to get a good gauge on the charging strategy. But it'll be awhile before a network of faster charging stations is built out. I'm friends with the VP of Engineering at Chargepoint, and they're moving quickly to install the next gen fast chargers....but it's going to take time to get them all out.
I do not understand this either. Why didn't they standardize the charging stations? Seems like a no brainer to me.
Did I miss your explanation on why the Ford Lightning is destined to be a "flop" ?
Post by: KFhunter on May 27, 2021, 11:52:16 AM
Post by: Igor on May 27, 2021, 11:55:21 AM
No, I just haven't answered you yet.
OK, thanks. It just seems to me that Ford is on the right track (or is it right truck), and I find all of these discussions interesting, and educating. I need all the help I can get.
Post by: Stein on May 27, 2021, 12:03:32 PM
Multiple car companies will have 300 mile range vehicles shipping in 2022. Tesla has their supercharger network, with the latest V3 update allowing for 1000 miles of range replenishment per hour. The standard DC fast chargers (fastest current standard option) currently deployed can do 178 miles range replenishment per hour. So stopping to top up a Tesla at a V3 supercharger for 250 miles is 15 minutes, compared to 1 hour 24 minutes on a DC fast charger. The new DC fast charger standard can do up to 500-800 miles range per hour replenishment (depending on implementation).....cutting that charge time for 250 miles of range replenishment down to 18-30 minutes.....so once those latest standard chargers get deployed then all the other car companies can at least get close to Tesla in terms of charge time.
The challenge is the standard chargers are all deployed and managed by third party companies like Chargepoint, Blink, etc. I'm curious to see if the big auto companies like Ford, GM, etc. start buying up the charging companies or deploying their own versions. Tesla spent years and a pile of money deploying their 25,000+ superchargers along most major highways. Will be interesting to watch the next few years play out.....as having a 300 mile range car that you have to stop for an hour and a half to charge while on a trip is not a feasible plan.
That's what kept us from picking up a Tesla, it would be a 3-4 stopper to get to my family in MT and one of the stops was 45 minutes. I one stop it in the truck, I would be willing to do 2, but 3 or more is just too much. It would be great around town, but not good on road trips, so it wasn't worth it.
I think in a year or two that will have changed and we'll probably pick one up when you can get one for $35k that can two stop it to MT.
An EV and a gas truck would be the perfect combination for our family to do anything we want.
Post by: KFhunter on May 27, 2021, 12:07:21 PM
Jackelope has a good point about regional success, it'll be a good grocery getter.
The truck has a pretty limited range, and after so many charges and discharges, it'll degrade to 80% and that is considered to be within specs, so you 300 mile range with the optinal extended range pack, is now 240, but degrading even still.
Turn on the heater, drive hills, snow or slush, add any weight, or *gasp* dare to add bigger mud tires..... and the range will be nearly unusable for anything but around town.
Now discuss chargers, can't use Tesla, most owners will be limited to a 120v wall outlet that keeps popping a cgfi
I see a nightmare, Tesla had a certian stigma, people knew they were getting a Tesla and mentally accepted the limitations...
This is a Ford truck.
The masses will seriously consider it, buy it without that stigma of "Tesla" then run into all tbe issues and pain of ownership
It's going to flop, go on the used market for a huge depreciation hit, then flop again on the used market too.
Post by: Stein on May 27, 2021, 12:21:53 PM
I'm also looking at it through my lens living rural and working my trucks.
Jackelope has a good point about regional success, it'll be a good grocery getter.
The truck has a pretty limited range, and after so many charges and discharges, it'll degrade to 80% and that is considered to be within specs, so you 300 mile range with the optinal extended range pack, is now 240, but degrading even still.
Turn on the heater, drive hills, snow or slush, add any weight, or *gasp* dare to add bigger mud tires..... and the range will be nearly unusable for anything but around town.
Now discuss chargers, can't use Tesla, most owners will be limited to a 120v wall outlet that keeps popping a cgfi
I see a nightmare, Tesla had a certian stigma, people knew they were getting a Tesla and mentally accepted the limitations...
This is a Ford truck.
The masses will seriously consider it, buy it without that stigma of "Tesla" then run into all tbe issues and pain of ownership
It's going to flop, go on the used market for a huge depreciation hit, then flop again on the used market too.
What you are saying is largely true, but how many F-150's are just driven around town for 99.9% of their lives? Probably a very sizeable chunk. There are also probably minivan and SUV guys that will be swayed into a truck.
It will sell for sure. Let's face it, the people that pull a 6,000 pound trailer up into the mountains for two weeks is not a significant portion of the truck market. That's why Ford isn't going the GM all electric route. Sell EVs to people that they fit and sell gas and diesel to the others. Everyone is happy.
I bought my truck from the original owner that sold it because it was too big and he was afraid to switch it into 4WD. I think that is much more common than many think.
Post by: KFhunter on May 27, 2021, 12:45:02 PM
I really think that stigma will play a big role in the demise of the lightning.
With the Tesla it was: "I'll make this work" and Tesla owners got to be all cool and trendy.
With Ford it'll be like: "this isn't working!" and get all mad and sell it.
If Ford is smart they'll really vet the potential buyers to make sure the vehicles are going to homes with the means to install a charger and the owners aren't just plunking cash on a vogue product not knowing what they're getting into and the modifications required.
I also think there's going to be a new administration that will end a great deal of these incentives to go all electric and "end big oil"
I could even see an environmental push to "stop the strip mines!" raping the earth of precious metals.
Post by: Stein on May 27, 2021, 12:53:14 PM
Another benefit is to knock the 3.5L guys down a rung, they are getting pretty smug with that acceleration and torque.
Post by: kselkhunter on May 27, 2021, 01:00:34 PM
A 120v Level 1 wall charger can only charge 8-10 miles per hour....nobody is seriously going to try to charge a 300 mile range EV with one of those as their permanent home charging solution.....
The "Pro" edition of the Lightning for contractors looks interesting, as you no longer have to lug a generator along to job sites.
I live on the east side of the cascades in Oregon. My favorite local hunting and fishing spots are <30 miles away from my house, so no range anxiety in towing my boat with a Lightning or hunting....I'm not a road hunter so 250-300 miles range is more than enough....and I've had an EV before so am familiar with how running the heater/etc affect range. My favorite spots to the north and west are within range of a Lightning, and there are many many charging stations between me and them. The only time I'd get range anxiety is if I draw one of the coveted eastern tags where I'm driving to the remote southeastern corner....then again those places are 100 miles from a gas station too....so that stuff is really remote. And those tags take decades to draw, so no risk of range issues anytime soon. :-) But for those hunts I'd take the Tundra and my 20gallons of jerry cans on the truck canopy.
If somebody is towing a 30,000lb trailer uphill both ways in 20ft of snow for 2000 miles each way, then sure an EV truck will never be acceptable. :-) In all seriousness, EV trucks won't be for everybody. But we're kidding ourselves if we try to deny the fact that EV SUV and Trucks are going to sell millions of vehicles in the coming decades.
Post by: Stein on May 27, 2021, 01:11:00 PM
EVs sit in the garage for a long time, they can pencil out for commuting even if you don't install a charger at home and don't have one at work. I would be interested to know what percent of Tesla owners don't buy a charger.
I know a guy working on a project for a Fortune 500 company that is buying commercial EV trucks. Big chargers, big trucks, big loads, big mileage capacity. We'll see how well they work but it's happening faster than most realize. Gas cost going up, electricity cost going down before you even talk about maintenance.
Post by: kselkhunter on May 27, 2021, 01:23:07 PM
There are a bunch of people that could and do use the 120V, 15 A cord to charge almost exclusively. Even at 8-10 miles per hour of charge, if you use it to commute, get home at 6 pm and leave the next day at 7 am you get 100-130 miles of charge overnight which is more than enough for the vast majority of commutes even if you throw in a few trips to the grocery store during the week.
EVs sit in the garage for a long time, they can pencil out for commuting even if you don't install a charger at home and don't have one at work. I would be interested to know what percent of Tesla owners don't buy a charger.
I know a guy working on a project for a Fortune 500 company that is buying commercial EV trucks. Big chargers, big trucks, big loads, big mileage capacity. We'll see how well they work but it's happening faster than most realize. Gas cost going up, electricity cost going down before you even talk about maintenance.
Yep, when I had the Ford Focus Electric I used the 120V Level 1 charger too. The problem is if you come back home late at night, you won't be topped up in time for your morning commute. Which was a problem with a 84 mile range (65 in winter) EV....not as much with a 300 mile range EV. But I had a few mornings when couldn't take the Focus to work because it wouldn't make it there and back on a charge, and I didn't have time to stop at a charging station that day.
The challenge when using a 120v charger with a 300 mile range vehicle is if you go on a trip and come back with only 50 miles range left on that Tesla or Lightning....it's going to take 3 days to recharge that thing.....
The wife will be upgrading her Volvo to an EV SUV in the near future, and will definitely be installing a Level 2 charger at home for that.
Post by: KFhunter on May 27, 2021, 05:58:01 PM
Post by: JBG on May 27, 2021, 07:49:07 PM
Post by: lamrith on August 05, 2021, 12:51:43 PM
EV in general has really skyrocketed in availability, affordability and range the last year or two. Electrify America is opening more and more stations. Last week Tesla released they will open their network to other EV's this year. I also heard they are changing their plug setup.
Based on the research I have done about the Mach-E (figure ford will use similar tech/concepts), Ford has really done their research with EV tech and putting together a good package. Unlike Tesla they are not playing the typical "max possible EPA rating" game. They are understating EPC mileage estimates and those reporting on range as saying they are getting longer range than EPA estimates.
Early reviews from people that have been hands on with the lightning it looks like a real winner. Some nice features for camping or being away from where there are powerlines, good range (with some posters showing LCD's showing what could possibly be much higher actual range).
Post by: lamrith on August 05, 2021, 01:39:02 PM
400W solar panels are down to <$300 now. Charging an EV at home without use of the energy grid is getting more economical every year that technology advances. A 5kW system is large enough to charge the Lightning based on typical daily usage and sun availability in the PNW, and a 5kW complete solar power kit costs between $5k-$7K now. Installation will vary based on location, and how much of the install you can do yourself. But with a 20 year warranty, we're talking $300-$500/yr total ammortized....which is less expensive than my annual gasoline costs.....I just did a calculation on my typical daily routine for a year.
There are charging stations all over the place, including rural areas that many people have no clue even exist. Parking lot of a remote mountain pass. Tucked into the corner of a Dairy Queen parking lot in a rural eastern town, etc. And more pop up every month. So range to the east side rural areas may be farther than some realize.....
The real question will be Ford's strategy on fast charging network. Tesla spent the time and money to put Supercharger stations everywhere such that you can now drive all over the country with a Model S. Would have been cool to see Ford license the Tesla charging technology and cut a deal to let a Lightning top up at a Supercharger station. Otherwise you're stuck with regular Chargepoint chargers and fast DC chargers....which isn't going to cut it for long distance trips as those are multi-hour recharges compared to a 30 minute charge in a Tesla at a SuperCharger station....I haven't looked closely enough at the Lightning to get a good gauge on the charging strategy. But it'll be awhile before a network of faster charging stations is built out. I'm friends with the VP of Engineering at Chargepoint, and they're moving quickly to install the next gen fast chargers....but it's going to take time to get them all out.
I leased a Ford Focus electric from 2014 to 2016 as my commuter vehicle. That was a fun little car, and the lease deals they were running back then made it a no-brainer....I put the miles on the Focus electric instead of my Tundra. Ford did a really good job with the development on that EV in terms of user interface, etc. I really liked it. You learn where all the charging stations are, and eventually get over the range anxiety. Having a 300 mile range of a Tesla or a Ford Lightning (the upgraded model) is a game changer from the 7 year older technology I was driving.
My daily driven car gats 17-18mpg. Using the somewhat accepted EV standard 3.0mi/Kwh and my current elect Co rates I would save $2400 a year on fuel alone, plus maintenance. That would pay the solar system off right quick!
For charging ford teamed up with Electrify America and maybe others. When all this started I do not think Tesla was willing to share, but more on that later. EA has a really big network already and some stations are faster than tesla, EA has 350Kwh rolling out all over. But most EV's are not designed to take advantage of those max power stations. Porsche Taycan being one of the few to run over 150 that I know of? But the point is that there are thousands of stations to charge at and I think technically more than tesla from a sheer number standpoint, and the speeds are getting much faster every month. Mach-E is 150Kwh from 20-80%. One thing I saw on the lightning has said 10-80% charge in under 40min and that max rate was 150Kwh.
Best part though is Tesla has announced they will be opening their network to other EV's this year. I think the sheer number of offerings for EV's that rival Tesla's range has caused them to re-evaluate their position and realize it is in their best interest to start levering their great network to become a real revenue generating source.
Post by: CP on August 05, 2021, 03:34:45 PM
I just did a calculation on my typical daily routine for a year.
My daily driven car gats 17-18mpg. Using the somewhat accepted EV standard 3.0mi/Kwh and my current elect Co rates I would save $2400 a year on fuel alone, plus maintenance. That would pay the solar system off right quick!
For charging ford teamed up with Electrify America and maybe others. When all this started I do not think Tesla was willing to share, but more on that later. EA has a really big network already and some stations are faster than tesla, EA has 350Kwh rolling out all over. But most EV's are not designed to take advantage of those max power stations. Porsche Taycan being one of the few to run over 150 that I know of? But the point is that there are thousands of stations to charge at and I think technically more than tesla from a sheer number standpoint, and the speeds are getting much faster every month. Mach-E is 150Kwh from 20-80%. One thing I saw on the lightning has said 10-80% charge in under 40min and that max rate was 150Kwh.
Best part though is Tesla has announced they will be opening their network to other EV's this year. I think the sheer number of offerings for EV's that rival Tesla's range has caused them to re-evaluate their position and realize it is in their best interest to start levering their great network to become a real revenue generating source.
The Mach-E battery size is 75.7 kWh and it charges at 150kW? 2C? What kind of battery life can they get charging at 2C?
Post by: kselkhunter on August 05, 2021, 04:04:27 PM
Just looked at the Ford Wall Charger specs for the Lightning.....Darn it!!! 80A charger. Don't have enough left in the electrical panel (nor did I pull heavy enough gauge wire for 80A). Was trying to convince the wife to get the Lightning for her next vehicle (she's replacing her Volvo with an EV SUV in the next few years).....because I'd liked the backup home power option you get with that....and I planned on "borrowing" it most of the time....but no bueno. That backup power function won't work without Ford's Wall Charger. Oh well. But that 80A is also how Ford is able to state the fast charging stats (projection).
Knowing the wife she'll probably go with the XC90 EV that's coming out in two years to replace her existing XC90 (XC40 EV is out now but she likes the roomier XC90s). Although a Tesla S is probably also still in play for her decision.
It's nice Tesla finally played nice with others by opening up the Supercharger network now. Curious how much they'll charge for it to non-Tesla's. Of the nationwide charging stations, Tesla has over 50% of them. The downside is no other car is designed to handle Tesla's Gen3 speeds of charging rates on those things so they'll throttle to normal Level 2 charge rates. Tesla will still maintain that advantage on charge rate until the new charging standard comes out next year......
Post by: lamrith on August 05, 2021, 04:26:57 PM
Not sure mach-e batt size, pretty sure one is 90? I have seen vids of then going 125kw+ while under 70%.I just did a calculation on my typical daily routine for a year.
My daily driven car gats 17-18mpg. Using the somewhat accepted EV standard 3.0mi/Kwh and my current elect Co rates I would save $2400 a year on fuel alone, plus maintenance. That would pay the solar system off right quick!
For charging ford teamed up with Electrify America and maybe others. When all this started I do not think Tesla was willing to share, but more on that later. EA has a really big network already and some stations are faster than tesla, EA has 350Kwh rolling out all over. But most EV's are not designed to take advantage of those max power stations. Porsche Taycan being one of the few to run over 150 that I know of? But the point is that there are thousands of stations to charge at and I think technically more than tesla from a sheer number standpoint, and the speeds are getting much faster every month. Mach-E is 150Kwh from 20-80%. One thing I saw on the lightning has said 10-80% charge in under 40min and that max rate was 150Kwh.
Best part though is Tesla has announced they will be opening their network to other EV's this year. I think the sheer number of offerings for EV's that rival Tesla's range has caused them to re-evaluate their position and realize it is in their best interest to start levering their great network to become a real revenue generating source.
The Mach-E battery size is 75.7 kWh and it charges at 150kW? 2C? What kind of battery life can they get charging at 2C?
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: lamrith on August 05, 2021, 04:54:23 PM
Not sure I follow, are you folks talking literal spaces in panel to add a circuit or something else? I have space in both my main house panel (200A service from road) and subpanel in garage (100A feed from house main panel)
Post by: kselkhunter on August 05, 2021, 05:28:01 PM
I have heard a few mention this limitation on house panel and hooking up 80a?
Not sure I follow, are you folks talking literal spaces in panel to add a circuit or something else? I have space in both my main house panel (200A service from road) and subpanel in garage (100A feed from house main panel)
1) You have to run the proper gauge wire from your electrical panel in order to support an 80A charger. The gauge of wire that I had pulled to support a 50A charger won't safely support an 80A charger. Have to pull thicker gauge wire for 80A.
2) I can't speak for others regarding physical space for breakers in their electrical panel although I do know that happens and people have to upgrade panels, but in my case I'm running multiple 240V systems and other higher amperage drawing devices off that garage panel along with other items. Sure I could look at terminating something to free up the extra amps....but not worth it now. Electrical part of the project is finished.
Since the wife hasn't decided on an EV yet, I chose to keep my decision as generic as possible with the 50A NEMA 14-50 outlet decision. That approach let's me use a ChargePoint Flex or other types of Level 2 smart chargers or a mobile charger that plugs into a 240V outlet. Wasn't planning on a Tesla wall charger (those are 60A for Gen3) as those are specific to Tesla and I don't know which EV wife will choose. But it was cheaper/easier to run the wiring and plan the panel now while the garage is being built so opted to put the 240V outlet in now.
The other nice thing of sticking with the standard NEMA 14-50 outlet approach is that is the same connector used for RV shore power, some welders, some appliances, etc. So gives more flexibility than just choosing a hardwired option.
I just wasn't expecting Ford to jump up to an 80A charger. That's higher than even a Tesla Gen3. You can still plug a Lightning, or any EV, into a NEMA 14-50 based Level 2 EV charger. It's just Ford is counting on that 80A circuit for when you're using the "backup home power" mode as power is flowing from the Lightning to power your house in a power outage for up to 3 days..... cool feature.
Post by: lamrith on August 05, 2021, 06:53:02 PM
Thanks for filling in some info. I was getting concerned after reading a post early in this thread about energy code issues.I have heard a few mention this limitation on house panel and hooking up 80a?
Not sure I follow, are you folks talking literal spaces in panel to add a circuit or something else? I have space in both my main house panel (200A service from road) and subpanel in garage (100A feed from house main panel)
1) You have to run the proper gauge wire from your electrical panel in order to support an 80A charger. The gauge of wire that I had pulled to support a 50A charger won't safely support an 80A charger. Have to pull thicker gauge wire for 80A.
2) I can't speak for others regarding physical space for breakers in their electrical panel although I do know that happens and people have to upgrade panels, but in my case I'm running multiple 240V systems and other higher amperage drawing devices off that garage panel along with other items. Sure I could look at terminating something to free up the extra amps....but not worth it now. Electrical part of the project is finished.
Since the wife hasn't decided on an EV yet, I chose to keep my decision as generic as possible with the 50A NEMA 14-50 outlet decision. That approach let's me use a ChargePoint Flex or other types of smart chargers that plug into a 240V outlet. Wasn't planning on a Tesla wall charger (those are 60A for Gen3) as those are specific to Tesla and I don't know which EV wife will choose. But it was cheaper/easier to run the wiring and plan the panel now while the garage is being built so opted to put the 240V outlet in now.
The other nice thing of sticking with the standard NEMA 14-50 outlet approach is that is the same connector used for RV shore power, some welders, some appliances, etc. So gives more flexibility than just choosing a hardwired option.
I just wasn't expecting Ford to jump up to an 80A charger. That's higher than even a Tesla Gen3. You can still plug a Lightning, or any EV, into a NEMA 14-50 based EV charger. It's just Ford is counting on that 80A circuit for when you're using the "backup home power" mode as power is flowing from the Lightning to power your house in a power outage for up to 3 days..... cool feature.
Thankfully my home is 200A and the run to garage is 100A so I should be able to put the charger at either location.
Wire is not cheap, but in the grand scheme of things it is not that expensive either. Hopefully yours was run in conduit? If so honestly you should be able to pull a new run with heavier gauge wire? Now would be the time while it is still fresh construction, walls open and maybe electricians are still around?
Post by: kselkhunter on August 05, 2021, 07:13:01 PM
Dodge and GM both have 400-500 mile range 1500 series trucks in development coming albeit later to market than Ford....I am a Ford guy but man that extra range is appealing enough to wait. Plus again the wife will probably buy an SUV anyway. The 400 mile range Rivian R1S is pretty cool, although I get nervous trusting which one of the new US startups (Canoo, Rivian, Bollinger, etc.) will make it long term in the EV market. That new Hummer EV looks pretty cool with 350 mile range....not sure I can go for that Jeep Wrangler EV (Magneto), not enough range for that type of vehicle. Audi/Porsche, BMW, Cadillac, and Mercedes already have their EV fleet in the market now going against Tesla. Volvo EVs hit the US next year. Ford has multiple models on the road now with the rest of their EV fleet coming soon. Toyota and Nissan have their SUV EVs here now and next year, and Subaru's is coming next year. Then the Chinese brands will invade (they outsell Tesla now across the lot of them). Prices are going to drop with the huge increase in competition over the next 4 years. The big brands will survive like they always do.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g29994375/future-electric-cars-trucks/
A 50 amp circuit is fine for all of those for now, except the Lightning. Or that unique Tesla wall charger (60A circuit).
So can't really justify that 80 amp change unless the wife really loved the Lightning....but I'm more interested in it than she is. And she now has lots of alternative options coming soon.
Post by: lamrith on August 05, 2021, 08:54:53 PM
Nah, I'm not enamored enough with the Lightning to swap out the garage wires now.....haven't seen the final bill but pretty sure the wire cost more than the new panel did. I like the Lightning but now that the EV options are about to quadruple in the next 6-12 months and much more so in the next 3 years.....Yeah that makes sense and we are sort of off on a tangent, and late in the game for you, but worth mentioning for anyone else considering EV and wiring a garage. I went 100A, just can't have too much power when projects need done. And if done initially, the cost difference is not that bad, or at least was not pre Covid when I did mine. Glad I did to as we later installed a mini split hvac unit so we can use it in dead of winter or heat of summer. If you have plans to install heat/cooling down the road many of them are in the 60a range, just fyi. Plus I doubt ford will be the only one over 50A long term.
Dodge and GM both have 400-500 mile range 1500 series trucks in development coming albeit later to market than Ford....I am a Ford guy but man that extra range is appealing enough to wait. Plus again the wife will probably buy an SUV anyway. The 400 mile range Rivian R1S is pretty cool, although I get nervous trusting which one of the new US startups (Canoo, Rivian, Bollinger, etc.) will make it long term in the EV market. That new Hummer EV looks pretty cool with 350 mile range....not sure I can go for that Jeep Wrangler EV (Magneto), not enough range for that type of vehicle. Audi/Porsche, BMW, Cadillac, and Mercedes already have their EV fleet in the market now going against Tesla. Volvo EVs hit the US next year. Ford has multiple models on the road now with the rest of their EV fleet coming soon. Toyota and Nissan have their SUV EVs here now and next year, and Subaru's is coming next year. Then the Chinese brands will invade (they outsell Tesla now across the lot of them). Prices are going to drop with the huge increase in competition over the next 4 years. The big brands will survive like they always do.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g29994375/future-electric-cars-trucks/
A 50 amp circuit is fine for all of those for now, except the Lightning. Or that unique Tesla wall charger (60A circuit).
So can't really justify that 80 amp change unless the wife really loved the Lightning....but I'm more interested in it than she is. And she now has lots of alternative options coming soon.
As for the competition, I am not fully believing many of those super long range claims. Easy to claim, harder to prove. I just find it suspect that they all have some magic batteries/tech that is soo much better than ford which is already a jump forward in terms of range for a vehicle this size..? I bet they are playing the same epa ratings games as they do for the ICE vehicles and Tesla on their cars does which users in real life to not see. Ford with Mach-e on the other hand always exceeds epa estimates.. They are doing same for lightning, keeping claims ultra conservative from what those into EV are saying based on info ford has released. Recent images and videos have shown ford lcd showing 479mi range. I agree with concern on longevity on the new upstarts, not willing to roll the dice personally. I mean Tesla has (thus far) pulled it off, but I have heard stories over the years that they lost millions, not many companies can survive that sort of thing. If Money was no object I would jump at a Taycan as primary daily driver, speed and range and well it's a porsche, they have a feel and ride to them that is second to none..
Post by: lamrith on August 06, 2021, 11:23:55 AM
https://forddrivetour.com/EV/
Post by: lamrith on August 11, 2021, 12:00:09 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/on-small-business/senate-backs-limiting-ev-tax-credits-congress-update/2021/08/10/46697b00-fa47-11eb-911c-524bc8b68f17_story.html
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on August 11, 2021, 12:17:37 PM
Is there an EV that is less than 40k?
Post by: Farmer72 on August 11, 2021, 12:22:13 PM
I am sure there are more. I just know this because a coworker has one.
Post by: Dhoey07 on August 11, 2021, 12:26:49 PM
Looks like Senate republicans are trying to torpedo the success and adoption of EV.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/on-small-business/senate-backs-limiting-ev-tax-credits-congress-update/2021/08/10/46697b00-fa47-11eb-911c-524bc8b68f17_story.html
If you want to buy an electric vehicle, great! You don't need a tax credit for doing it :dunno:
Post by: lamrith on August 11, 2021, 12:29:53 PM
Republican Senator Deb Fischer of Nebraska proposed prohibiting people making more than $100,000 a year from claiming EV tax credits and to end tax credits for EVs that cost more than $40,000 -There are a few more I think like 5-6 total? All very small econoboxes.
Is there an EV that is less than 40k?
Post by: jackelope on August 11, 2021, 12:39:30 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210811/dce55800500ced5214cf106f9dae5d02.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210811/5cf6ba77eef734eb8720aea82944d64a.jpg)
Post by: bearpaw on August 11, 2021, 12:47:45 PM
Post by: KFhunter on August 11, 2021, 12:49:38 PM
Wow, a lot of that sounds pretty impressive! I guess my biggest concern is the 300 mile range limitation. Could a person carry spare batteries?
Duh, it's a truck. The generator goes in the back.
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on August 11, 2021, 01:11:57 PM
Post by: lamrith on August 11, 2021, 01:19:35 PM
Wow, a lot of that sounds pretty impressive! I guess my biggest concern is the 300 mile range limitation. Could a person carry spare batteries?Couple things of note...
Based on calculations with info Ford HAS released (they will not state battery size) the 300mi is thought to be conservative. Rumor has it, that testing was done with 1000# payload in the truck. My rough numbers based on released info put it at around 450mi, for max range. But typical EV they say only run 70-80% usage then charge to 80%. That would put it around 350mi range. Some industry estimates are over 400mi, based on screenshots of LCD screens in demo trucks. It seems they are not playing the usual higher than real world EPA estimates common in ICE vehicles and done by Tesla. The Mach-E for example I am hearing is exceeding EPA estimates for range. Time will tell what the truth is.
Ford Does have a patent now for a charging setup with generator "packaged so that it could fit in the bed of a truck like a toolbox"...
I doubt spare batteries would be practical, the sheer weight would likely really kill range.
Where did you see that multi page spread? Very cool.
Ugh, it looks like its only going to have a 5.5ft bed. That's disappointing.Yes it is the shortbed and only one vehicle/chassis configuration being the full 4 door, short bed variant. No std cab or extended cab options.
Post by: Stein on August 11, 2021, 01:20:56 PM
Ugh, it looks like its only going to have a 5.5ft bed. That's disappointing.
Keeps the weight down I'm sure. It makes sense the first one here will be marketed to the 90% of the people that drive them to work and back and never put anything in them outside of a set of golf clubs. I'm sure the crew cab 5.5' is the most popular version of f-150 they sell, it was very difficult to find a used one with a 6.5' when I bought mine.
Towing will obviously crush the range, but they will be zippy fast.
Post by: lamrith on August 11, 2021, 01:32:38 PM
Seems very few non ford staff have been able to drive them so far. Those that have ridden in them say it is instant zoom, and more responsive than most other EV's they have been in. Mid 4 second 0-60.Ugh, it looks like its only going to have a 5.5ft bed. That's disappointing.
Keeps the weight down I'm sure. It makes sense the first one here will be marketed to the 90% of the people that drive them to work and back and never put anything in them outside of a set of golf clubs. I'm sure the crew cab 5.5' is the most popular version of f-150 they sell, it was very difficult to find a used one with a 6.5' when I bought mine.
Towing will obviously crush the range, but they will be zippy fast.
Post by: jackelope on August 11, 2021, 01:53:02 PM
It’s in the newest Ford Frontline magazine we get.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210811/c229d89f69ce081930195a2798e696d5.jpg)
Post by: jackelope on August 11, 2021, 01:53:47 PM
Seems very few non ford staff have been able to drive them so far. Those that have ridden in them say it is instant zoom, and more responsive than most other EV's they have been in. Mid 4 second 0-60.Ugh, it looks like its only going to have a 5.5ft bed. That's disappointing.
Keeps the weight down I'm sure. It makes sense the first one here will be marketed to the 90% of the people that drive them to work and back and never put anything in them outside of a set of golf clubs. I'm sure the crew cab 5.5' is the most popular version of f-150 they sell, it was very difficult to find a used one with a 6.5' when I bought mine.
Towing will obviously crush the range, but they will be zippy fast.
I drove a Mach E the other day. I’ll literally never buy one ever, but the acceleration was sort of shocking. That thing scoots.
Post by: lamrith on August 11, 2021, 01:59:44 PM
That is what I have heard. If I lost my SHO today the Mach-E would be on a pretty short list of replacements... If I could find one available to buy.Seems very few non ford staff have been able to drive them so far. Those that have ridden in them say it is instant zoom, and more responsive than most other EV's they have been in. Mid 4 second 0-60.Ugh, it looks like its only going to have a 5.5ft bed. That's disappointing.
Keeps the weight down I'm sure. It makes sense the first one here will be marketed to the 90% of the people that drive them to work and back and never put anything in them outside of a set of golf clubs. I'm sure the crew cab 5.5' is the most popular version of f-150 they sell, it was very difficult to find a used one with a 6.5' when I bought mine.
Towing will obviously crush the range, but they will be zippy fast.
I drove a Mach E the other day. I’ll literally never buy one ever, but the acceleration was sort of shocking. That thing scoots.
Post by: kselkhunter on August 11, 2021, 03:16:38 PM
I'm definitely liking the Rivian. The wife wants their R1S now. They are looking at a $5B plant in Texas now to ramp up volumes. The R1T truck and first R1S are out now for those that got in early on pre-orders. New orders placed now won't be available until January. Waiting on official EPA ratings on those....claim is 300 miles. Rivian to launch a larger battery to get up to 400 miles range in 2022. The ability to raise the ground clearance from 8 inches up to 14.9 inches when in rough terrain is a cool feature. As is the quad motors: each wheel has a motor for true 4WD. They are also building out a nationwide charging network, except will use the DC fast charging standard instead of a custom method (ie Tesla). https://rivian.com/r1s
Post by: lamrith on August 11, 2021, 03:38:05 PM
I'm expecting that like most other companies Ford will eventually release multiple battery options for longer ranges later.I would hope so to on the even larger batteries. Tech on those is continually advancing. It would be cool if down the road higher capacity was developed to fit in same space and Ford could offer upgrades down the road.
I'm definitely liking the Rivian. The wife wants their R1S now. They are looking at a $5B plant in Texas now to ramp up volumes. The R1T truck and first R1S are out now for those that got in early on pre-orders. New orders placed now won't be available until January. Waiting on official EPA ratings on those....claim is 300 miles. Rivian to launch a larger battery to get up to 400 miles range in 2022. The ability to raise the ground clearance from 8 inches up to 14.9 inches when in rough terrain is a cool feature. As is the quad motors: each wheel has a motor for true 4WD. They are also building out a nationwide charging network, except will use the DC fast charging standard instead of a custom method (ie Tesla). https://rivian.com/r1s
Those have decent specs and some cool features. Looks smaller than the lightning, more like a ranger (which is fine), a bit futuristic looking for my taste. My biggest concern is it sounds like they are out there making their own network and the fact they are a brand new unknown company. It would have been really smart if they have partnered with existing charging networks, but at least they seem to be using hte common charging port so one could get an account with EA or other charging stations.
Post by: Stein on August 11, 2021, 03:39:53 PM
Given that it's a truck, a cool feature would be the ability to buy an external battery pack you could throw in the bed for long trips. With new battery tech, it wouldn't be that heavy.
Post by: kselkhunter on August 11, 2021, 04:07:01 PM
Tesla big benefit is their new Gen3 super chargers are ridiculously fast. Faster than even the new DC Fast charging standard launching next year. But Tesla's adapter plug makes a Tesla compatible to the standard plugs. And now that Tesla just opened their charging network to all other brands (for a fee) there is an adapter plug to connect the supercharger to the standard J1772 plug. Non-Tesla's just won't be able to charge at the faster charging rate.
I forget which brand it is, but one of the new EVs has solar panels on it to extend the battery range when driven during the day.
I think the weight of the "spare" battery lifting in and out of the bed could be a challenge as those things are not light. But I imagine now that so many brands have EVs coming out that we'll see some cool technology getting added on. Perhaps something along the lines of what you're suggesting that are maybe stackable smaller capacity batteries that you can add and subtract if going on a longer road trip. But with so many super chargers and other charging stations already out there you can basically drive anywhere in the country on a freeway in a Tesla today without getting range anxiety. It's the remote hunting trips where I think the spare batteries could come in most useful, when you're not near a major highway to top up at a charging station. It should be an interesting next 5 years as the new technologies start to roll out.
Post by: Stein on August 11, 2021, 04:45:24 PM
For in town or work commutes, yeah, they are great. For road trips, I'll take my 34 gallon gas machine for now.
If you think the current fast chargers are big, wait until you see what's coming down the pike for commercial stuff - :o I have a buddy working on a pilot project and the power required to run the charger is mind boggling.
Post by: kselkhunter on August 11, 2021, 05:32:48 PM
The new DC fast charging stations for non-Tesla's will almost keep pace. There is theoretically some 350kW stations coming from Electrify America that will put all the other brands into the same stratosphere as Tesla. But for now the 150kW DC fast chargers are still better than the Level 2 Chargepoint and Blink stations. Not that those Level 2 stations are bad, I used them for years back when I leased my Ford Focus electric for my city commuter. The Level 2 charger that I'm installing in my garage will charge up to 32 miles per hour, which is fine for overnight charging.
For the Ford Lightning, I can't tell if it has a CCS connector or just the old J1772.
Yeah the new chargers targeting electric semi trucks are some high power requirements. I'm not on the battery side of things anymore, mostly focused on the autonomous compute side of things.
Post by: lamrith on August 11, 2021, 06:11:18 PM
When I looked into visiting my brother in MT, it would take 4 stops for a total of 2 hours charge time (model 3). To me that's a no-go, I'll do two stops which is double what I do now, but 4 is too many. It only saves $17 over paying for gas.You are not wrong about the time spent charging, it really is an issue and imho EV's are not really roadtrip rigs at their current stage of development, but they are getting there quick.
That sounds a bit off for savings honestly. Unless you were driving some econobox and using cheapest fuel you could and paying electrify america charge rates.
Model 3's avg 4.4Mi/Kwh and Tesla only charges $.25/Kwh So $.056/mi. A run to Billings for example would only cost $48 one way. I cannot thing of many ICE that would be close to that? 25mpg @ $3.65/gal would be over $120..
Post by: Stein on August 14, 2021, 06:00:27 PM
When I looked into visiting my brother in MT, it would take 4 stops for a total of 2 hours charge time (model 3). To me that's a no-go, I'll do two stops which is double what I do now, but 4 is too many. It only saves $17 over paying for gas.You are not wrong about the time spent charging, it really is an issue and imho EV's are not really roadtrip rigs at their current stage of development, but they are getting there quick.
That sounds a bit off for savings honestly. Unless you were driving some econobox and using cheapest fuel you could and paying electrify america charge rates.
Model 3's avg 4.4Mi/Kwh and Tesla only charges $.25/Kwh So $.056/mi. A run to Billings for example would only cost $48 one way. I cannot thing of many ICE that would be close to that? 25mpg @ $3.65/gal would be over $120..
That's from Tesla's mapping website where you plug in your vehicle and the origin and destination and it tells you where to stop, for how long and what the savings over gas would be.
Post by: jackelope on August 14, 2021, 10:17:28 PM
When I looked into visiting my brother in MT, it would take 4 stops for a total of 2 hours charge time (model 3). To me that's a no-go, I'll do two stops which is double what I do now, but 4 is too many. It only saves $17 over paying for gas.You are not wrong about the time spent charging, it really is an issue and imho EV's are not really roadtrip rigs at their current stage of development, but they are getting there quick.
That sounds a bit off for savings honestly. Unless you were driving some econobox and using cheapest fuel you could and paying electrify america charge rates.
Model 3's avg 4.4Mi/Kwh and Tesla only charges $.25/Kwh So $.056/mi. A run to Billings for example would only cost $48 one way. I cannot thing of many ICE that would be close to that? 25mpg @ $3.65/gal would be over $120..
That's from Tesla's mapping website where you plug in your vehicle and the origin and destination and it tells you where to stop, for how long and what the savings over gas would be.
Their numbers don’t make sense.
Post by: lamrith on August 15, 2021, 07:48:29 AM
Odd that def does not add up, they must have put in some extremely high ICE MPG and low fuel prices? Without being address specific how far into MT were they going? Just to Missoula/Kalispel or all the way to Billings?When I looked into visiting my brother in MT, it would take 4 stops for a total of 2 hours charge time (model 3). To me that's a no-go, I'll do two stops which is double what I do now, but 4 is too many. It only saves $17 over paying for gas.You are not wrong about the time spent charging, it really is an issue and imho EV's are not really roadtrip rigs at their current stage of development, but they are getting there quick.
That sounds a bit off for savings honestly. Unless you were driving some econobox and using cheapest fuel you could and paying electrify america charge rates.
Model 3's avg 4.4Mi/Kwh and Tesla only charges $.25/Kwh So $.056/mi. A run to Billings for example would only cost $48 one way. I cannot thing of many ICE that would be close to that? 25mpg @ $3.65/gal would be over $120..
That's from Tesla's mapping website where you plug in your vehicle and the origin and destination and it tells you where to stop, for how long and what the savings over gas would be.
This link is a great way to compare $/mi of ICE vs EV. Just set the annual mileage to your trip miles..
http://chooseev.com/savings-calculator/
EV still pays penalty in terms of time for charging but from a pure "cost of fueling" standpoint Tesla is better, specially since (so far) tesla only charges $.25/Kwh. Other charging Co are charging $.32-42/Kwh so there is not as much savings on road trips. For many here that are hunters and trying to get away from people and deeps into the woods, or long trips to remote hunting areas, it is not a great match yet.
All that said the real sweet spot for EV's given current tech is day to day driving, not road trips. Unless you are burning 200mi+ a day the chances are very high that an EV will save you money on fuel and maintenance costs over a traditional ICE. Charge them with 240V outlet and you will see the vehicle charge from 10-15% to 80% or more overnight if needed. Getting a 240V outlet does not always require an electrician either. EV is such a hot thing that there are piggyback/sharing modules any homeowner can plug into a dryer outlet to split and share it without hiring an electrician.
Post by: CP on August 15, 2021, 09:35:49 AM
For the other 10%, I’ll stick with the carbon-based units.
Post by: Stein on August 15, 2021, 10:16:27 AM
I agree with CP, until a generational advance, we're looking at having our next car an EV that my wife uses to commute a few miles and trips around town. Towing the boat, road trips, hauling more people and whatever else will be a gas truck. Seems to me to be the best option.
I can put a 240V circuit in the house pretty easily and that will get us enough range fast enough to not worry about charging stations.
Post by: jackelope on August 15, 2021, 11:25:31 AM
While I’m I’m not sold on full EV for my own use, they have a place. City municipality vehicles for example. Those vehicles don’t get any miles put on them at any one time. Running around town, then parking them back at the shop or office or whatever to charge overnight, get back in them and go the next day.
These vehicles won’t work for everyone and the manufacturers know that.
Post by: jackelope on August 15, 2021, 11:26:27 AM
Post by: lamrith on August 18, 2021, 10:23:37 AM
https://www.lightningowners.com/threads/improve-trailer-towing-range-with-trailer-mounted-batteries.107/?fbclid=IwAR1asAgGFpLx_XbNYNlU3XyjGvKYa7V-zDRia4gxgQnU2t_SwPF1RwAZqYE
Post by: CP on August 24, 2021, 02:50:01 PM
Post by: lamrith on August 24, 2021, 05:39:57 PM
Ford is doubling production of the Lightning - up to 80,000 per year.That is for 2024 The rest of the article claims only 15K total units for 2022. That is an extremely disappointing number honestly. It is a complete joke as a matter of fact. The produced almost 13k Mach-E in 1st half of 2021which is a completely new build. But they only target 15K TOTAL F150 Lightning for a year, when most of the truck is existing F150 parts? Yeah more than a little disappointed in hearing that. I really hope Reuters has their info wrong, 15k honestly seems like a joke of a number and will severely hurt their sales as I think Tesla is pushing hard to finally release the CT.
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on August 25, 2021, 07:39:23 AM
Post by: Stein on August 25, 2021, 08:00:08 AM
Ford is doubling production of the Lightning - up to 80,000 per year.That is for 2024 The rest of the article claims only 15K total units for 2022. That is an extremely disappointing number honestly. It is a complete joke as a matter of fact. The produced almost 13k Mach-E in 1st half of 2021which is a completely new build. But they only target 15K TOTAL F150 Lightning for a year, when most of the truck is existing F150 parts? Yeah more than a little disappointed in hearing that. I really hope Reuters has their info wrong, 15k honestly seems like a joke of a number and will severely hurt their sales as I think Tesla is pushing hard to finally release the CT.
That assumes they have access to all the parts and are consciously holding production down. Maybe they are, maybe that's all the parts they think they can get right now. Maybe they are testing the water, hard to say.
Post by: lamrith on August 25, 2021, 09:08:35 AM
Well if 15k is the number, I probably need to give my truck some TLC to make it last till 2023!Sounds like you got in on reservation early? I heard they had over 20K reservations in the 1st 24hrs and was 100K within 3 weeks. Reservation to order conversion rate will be interesting. There could be people that placed order 1st week that not see rig for over 2yrs. yikes. I was very slow on the draw and past the 100K mark so looing 2024/25 depending on actual production and conversion rates.
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on August 25, 2021, 01:17:55 PM
Well if 15k is the number, I probably need to give my truck some TLC to make it last till 2023!Sounds like you got in on reservation early? I heard they had over 20K reservations in the 1st 24hrs and was 100K within 3 weeks. Reservation to order conversion rate will be interesting. There could be people that placed order 1st week that not see rig for over 2yrs. yikes. I was very slow on the draw and past the 100K mark so looing 2024/25 depending on actual production and conversion rates.
I reserved it 5/20. So I could get lucky!
Post by: lamrith on August 25, 2021, 01:33:34 PM
Yeah you are set! I bet you will get in on 2022 rig. I blew it off when I saw a few headlines about the "new ford truck" then month later my oldest asked if I had seen the details on it. nope. kicking myself now for sure, reserved June 20Well if 15k is the number, I probably need to give my truck some TLC to make it last till 2023!Sounds like you got in on reservation early? I heard they had over 20K reservations in the 1st 24hrs and was 100K within 3 weeks. Reservation to order conversion rate will be interesting. There could be people that placed order 1st week that not see rig for over 2yrs. yikes. I was very slow on the draw and past the 100K mark so looing 2024/25 depending on actual production and conversion rates.
I reserved it 5/20. So I could get lucky!
Post by: kselkhunter on September 06, 2021, 03:14:44 PM
Ford is estimating 230 mile range on their standard battery Lightning and up to 300+ on their extended range battery. Not sure what date the EPA will release Ford's numbers.
Post by: lamrith on September 06, 2021, 03:53:01 PM
EPA just completed their dyno tests for rating the Rivian, making Rivian the first truck or full size SUV EV with an official EPA rating. Came in at 314 mile range on the R1T truck with standard battery pack, and 316 miles on the R1S SUV. 300 was the expected number, so slightly higher than anticipated. The larger 400+ mile battery pack won't likely complete EPA evaluation until early next year. This EPA rating was the last thing holding up deliveries, so the lucky folks that got in early on reservations will start receiving their R1T and R1S deliveries starting this month.From what I had heard in the EV circles the EPA uses mfg numbers, cool to hear epa has some std put together. Def eager to see what the lightning pulls off.
Ford is estimating 230 mile range on their standard battery Lightning and up to 300+ on their extended range battery. Not sure what date the EPA will release Ford's numbers.
Post by: kselkhunter on September 06, 2021, 04:27:27 PM
EPA just completed their dyno tests for rating the Rivian, making Rivian the first truck or full size SUV EV with an official EPA rating. Came in at 314 mile range on the R1T truck with standard battery pack, and 316 miles on the R1S SUV. 300 was the expected number, so slightly higher than anticipated. The larger 400+ mile battery pack won't likely complete EPA evaluation until early next year. This EPA rating was the last thing holding up deliveries, so the lucky folks that got in early on reservations will start receiving their R1T and R1S deliveries starting this month.From what I had heard in the EV circles the EPA uses mfg numbers, cool to hear epa has some std put together. Def eager to see what the lightning pulls off.
Ford is estimating 230 mile range on their standard battery Lightning and up to 300+ on their extended range battery. Not sure what date the EPA will release Ford's numbers.
The EPA actually receives test vehicles and puts them through a series of tests on a dynamometer and other tests to determine the final mileage and range ratings for EVs. https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Shopping-Guides/electric-vehicle-range-testing-understanding-nedc-vs-wltp-vs-epa
Post by: lamrith on September 06, 2021, 04:45:26 PM
Yeah did a bit of digging after seeing your post.EPA just completed their dyno tests for rating the Rivian, making Rivian the first truck or full size SUV EV with an official EPA rating. Came in at 314 mile range on the R1T truck with standard battery pack, and 316 miles on the R1S SUV. 300 was the expected number, so slightly higher than anticipated. The larger 400+ mile battery pack won't likely complete EPA evaluation until early next year. This EPA rating was the last thing holding up deliveries, so the lucky folks that got in early on reservations will start receiving their R1T and R1S deliveries starting this month.From what I had heard in the EV circles the EPA uses mfg numbers, cool to hear epa has some std put together. Def eager to see what the lightning pulls off.
Ford is estimating 230 mile range on their standard battery Lightning and up to 300+ on their extended range battery. Not sure what date the EPA will release Ford's numbers.
The EPA actually receives test vehicles and puts them through a series of tests on a dynamometer and other tests to determine the final mileage and range ratings for EVs. https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Shopping-Guides/electric-vehicle-range-testing-understanding-nedc-vs-wltp-vs-epa
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/18/how-does-epa-calculate-electric-car-range/
Do we know if ford has given them test rigs yet?
Post by: kselkhunter on September 06, 2021, 04:54:24 PM
These are just early test drive experience, and the EPA tests are much more robust.....but odds are the base model Lightning will end up with a higher than 230 mile range in the final EPA number.
https://topelectricsuv.com/news/ford/ford-f150-electric-new-update/
Post by: lamrith on September 06, 2021, 05:16:25 PM
Anyone else going to the Ford EV events on 16th/17th? I registered for the pro tour on Sept 17th @ 12:45 and then just got invite and was able to register for the consumer event Sept 16th @ 5pm.
Post by: lamrith on September 17, 2021, 08:30:15 PM
The Pro event today was another thing. It was all presentations, much info we have heard before, but some tidbits not known here and there. Def felt like a better experience. The ride alongs were different too, as they had one trailer pulling a 5000# trailer. It pulled it like it was not even there, even up the slop in the parking lot. No data on towing range yet but they are working on building data and a towing curve.
The bidirectional power is sounding better. They had partnered with Sunrun initially, but it sounds like Ford is changing direction and bringing the install service inhouse and have bought a company to handle the consumer and fleet side charging installs. I hung around after that presentation and asked about what made it different and needing special installer and the guy said that was just to provide a one stop solution for the customer. Any licensed electrician could install the bi-directional 80A charging setup. That is great news imho.
Speaking of bringing inhouse, it also sounds like they are bringing more and more things inhouse. I have a feeling the whole chip and other shortages has really chaffed their hide. They even said they are bringing battery production inhouse.
Interesting note, the 4 lightnings on this tour are all handbuilt prototypes, hence no public driving. These things HAUL bigtime. Even in the rain today the awd was hooking up and screaming around the course.
Post by: CP on September 18, 2021, 02:18:20 PM
Post by: kselkhunter on September 18, 2021, 02:35:20 PM
I’m not seeing any advantage to bi-directional charging. That is, unless you have an off-grid cabin or something similar. What I’m I missing? Why would Ford add the extra cost and complexity?
It functions as backup power for your home. The Lightning is expected to be able to provide the average home backup power for 3 days, or up to 10 days if power is rationed.
So saves you the cost of buying a backup generator for when the power goes out....which can get quite expensive for a whole house backup generator.
Post by: lamrith on September 18, 2021, 03:17:25 PM
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: CP on September 18, 2021, 03:17:48 PM
I’m not seeing any advantage to bi-directional charging. That is, unless you have an off-grid cabin or something similar. What I’m I missing? Why would Ford add the extra cost and complexity?
It functions as backup power for your home. The Lightning is expected to be able to provide the average home backup power for 3 days, or up to 10 days if power is rationed.
So saves you the cost of buying a backup generator for when the power goes out....which can get quite expensive for a whole house backup generator.
I understand all that; I just don't see this feature selling many trucks or swaying a buyer from truck A to truck F. But maybe that's just me.
So it powers the house for a few days, then I'm out of power and I have a dead truck. Still need backup power.
Post by: Stein on September 18, 2021, 04:55:09 PM
It's not much extra cost or complexity really, I'm surprised it has taken them this long actually as they have been talking about it for quite a while. PV inverters have been bi-directional forever, same general technology in the charger.
Next step will be a home microgrid where you have the truck, a generator, PV, maybe extra batteries depending on what you want to do. A big part of the country is tired of going without power when storms or fires happen.
I don't see it as being the thing that sells the truck though, just an added benefit. They won't have any problem selling those trucks, they are desperately trying to make as many as possible before the competition catches up.
Post by: royalhntr on September 18, 2021, 05:08:01 PM
Anyone else make it to a Lighting event at Wildwaves? I was a big underwhelmed by the consumer event yesterday. Truck looks great and the ride along was great, but that was it, the rest was all stuff seen before and no presentations or speaking. Staff was there but no push or promo of the vehicle.
The Pro event today was another thing. It was all presentations, much info we have heard before, but some tidbits not known here and there. Def felt like a better experience. The ride alongs were different too, as they had one trailer pulling a 5000# trailer. It pulled it like it was not even there, even up the slop in the parking lot. No data on towing range yet but they are working on building data and a towing curve.
The bidirectional power is sounding better. They had partnered with Sunrun initially, but it sounds like Ford is changing direction and bringing the install service inhouse and have bought a company to handle the consumer and fleet side charging installs. I hung around after that presentation and asked about what made it different and needing special installer and the guy said that was just to provide a one stop solution for the customer. Any licensed electrician could install the bi-directional 80A charging setup. That is great news imho.
Speaking of bringing inhouse, it also sounds like they are bringing more and more things inhouse. I have a feeling the whole chip and other shortages has really chaffed their hide. They even said they are bringing battery production inhouse.
Interesting note, the 4 lightnings on this tour are all handbuilt prototypes, hence no public driving. These things HAUL bigtime. Even in the rain today the awd was hooking up and screaming around the course.
I attended yesterdays pro presentation. The ride along was impressive as was the trailer towing. That truck is so fast for the general public to be driving. Its a 6500 lb missile. That's basically an f250 crew cab diesel that can do 0-60 in 4.4 or 5.4 depending on who you ask. I was able to drive the new f150 responder, that is a great well balanced truck.
I was on the fence about the lightning until yesterday. I would probable shell out the extra money for the bigger battery for the extra power. I still can't believe how well it handled the autocross course, it felt more planted than the PIUs they let us drive.
Post by: lamrith on September 18, 2021, 05:39:32 PM
True enough. I know the power company I have I we rarely have an outage that lasts more than 24hrs. Only time it was longer was a few years back when the feed lines for the entire puget sound went down a number of years back. For me 3 days would be way more than needed. Folks could also lower their power consumption, it could last longer as the 3 day estimate was based on 30Kwh a day. Drop back to just keeping fridge and a few lights goingI’m not seeing any advantage to bi-directional charging. That is, unless you have an off-grid cabin or something similar. What I’m I missing? Why would Ford add the extra cost and complexity?
It functions as backup power for your home. The Lightning is expected to be able to provide the average home backup power for 3 days, or up to 10 days if power is rationed.
So saves you the cost of buying a backup generator for when the power goes out....which can get quite expensive for a whole house backup generator.
I understand all that; I just don't see this feature selling many trucks or swaying a buyer from truck A to truck F. But maybe that's just me.
So it powers the house for a few days, then I'm out of power and I have a dead truck. Still need backup power.
you were there for the PI event before hand? I came in just as that was ending around 12:15, those rigs were scooting around the course quick! I have been sold on the Lightning for a while, the ride along just cemented it in even more.Anyone else make it to a Lighting event at Wildwaves? I was a big underwhelmed by the consumer event yesterday. Truck looks great and the ride along was great, but that was it, the rest was all stuff seen before and no presentations or speaking. Staff was there but no push or promo of the vehicle.
The Pro event today was another thing. It was all presentations, much info we have heard before, but some tidbits not known here and there. Def felt like a better experience. The ride alongs were different too, as they had one trailer pulling a 5000# trailer. It pulled it like it was not even there, even up the slop in the parking lot. No data on towing range yet but they are working on building data and a towing curve.
The bidirectional power is sounding better. They had partnered with Sunrun initially, but it sounds like Ford is changing direction and bringing the install service inhouse and have bought a company to handle the consumer and fleet side charging installs. I hung around after that presentation and asked about what made it different and needing special installer and the guy said that was just to provide a one stop solution for the customer. Any licensed electrician could install the bi-directional 80A charging setup. That is great news imho.
Speaking of bringing inhouse, it also sounds like they are bringing more and more things inhouse. I have a feeling the whole chip and other shortages has really chaffed their hide. They even said they are bringing battery production inhouse.
Interesting note, the 4 lightnings on this tour are all handbuilt prototypes, hence no public driving. These things HAUL bigtime. Even in the rain today the awd was hooking up and screaming around the course.
I attended yesterdays pro presentation. The ride along was impressive as was the trailer towing. That truck is so fast for the general public to be driving. Its a 6500 lb missile. That's basically an f250 crew cab diesel that can do 0-60 in 4.4 or 5.4 depending on who you ask. I was able to drive the new f150 responder, that is a great well balanced truck.
I was on the fence about the lightning until yesterday. I would probable shell out the extra money for the bigger battery for the extra power. I still can't believe how well it handled the autocross course, it felt more planted than the PIUs they let us drive.
Post by: royalhntr on September 18, 2021, 06:06:25 PM
The guy driving the Lightning on the quick course is really good, so is his buddy I didn't see there this time. They took us for a ride in a piu that had me wondering how we didn't roll over. :chuckle:
Did the Lighting presenter tell your group the front trunk was good for putting a dead deer in because you can wash out the blood with a hose? I thought that was great.
Post by: lamrith on September 18, 2021, 07:39:37 PM
Yes I did both events. They wouldn't pull out the 3.0 ecoboost PIU because it was raining. Two years ago I drove one in the rain and it was a handful. They must have had an incident at some point directing that decision. That car is great for state patrols getting up to highway speed but overkill for city use. An Explorer ST would be a fun SUV for sure.HAHA no he didn't, hunting was not brought up in our group. I was impressed with the lightning driver as well. you could tell he knew the truck well they way he threw it around.
The guy driving the Lightning on the quick course is really good, so is his buddy I didn't see there this time. They took us for a ride in a piu that had me wondering how we didn't roll over. :chuckle:
Did the Lighting presenter tell your group the front trunk was good for putting a dead deer in because you can wash out the blood with a hose? I thought that was great.
Post by: CP on September 18, 2021, 07:57:29 PM
I think a lot of people could find value in that, power is usually out a couple hours to a day or two in most cases and that will keep you going. During the outage, drive the other car to the store for your ice cream.
It's not much extra cost or complexity really, I'm surprised it has taken them this long actually as they have been talking about it for quite a while. PV inverters have been bi-directional forever, same general technology in the charger.
Next step will be a home microgrid where you have the truck, a generator, PV, maybe extra batteries depending on what you want to do. A big part of the country is tired of going without power when storms or fires happen.
I don't see it as being the thing that sells the truck though, just an added benefit. They won't have any problem selling those trucks, they are desperately trying to make as many as possible before the competition catches up.
Okay, I can see how a giant, self-propelled, Goal Zero Yeti might come in handy. Especially if it can tow my boat and haul a load of firewood.
If it’s not much extra cost, great. But as a stock owner, I hope Ford is doing their market research and not just throwing every feature they can think up into this. I’d like to see them selling these trucks for a profit.
Post by: Stein on September 18, 2021, 08:23:27 PM
Post by: royalhntr on September 18, 2021, 08:29:02 PM
Post by: CP on October 04, 2021, 10:45:45 AM
According to him, the lowly Nissan Leaf is popular there because it is one of the few EVs that has this feature and EV owners there will not be buying a new vehicle without bidirectional charging.
Post by: Stein on October 04, 2021, 10:51:47 AM
If you had TOU pricing it would be a slam dunk, especially if your employer charged for free. Charge it up at work, drive home, discharge during peak during dinner, back to charging at cheap rates overnight, do the same in the morning and then repeat.
Only question would be what does all that extra usage do to battery capacity life?
Post by: CP on October 04, 2021, 10:54:14 AM
Post by: lamrith on October 04, 2021, 11:05:45 AM
FYI - News late last week out of a dealership is that ordering will open up Oct 26 for the lightning.
Based on how far back I am plus the extremely low production numbers being thrown around I picked up a cheap EV 2weeks ago. I could not pass up the saving for commuting @$0.057/kw my elect co charges me.
Plus I can start getting used to the EV lifestyle. I get 2full days commuting on a single charge and with 240v charge it goes from 0-100% in <8hrs. More likely I will plug it into 120v each night and keep it topped off so no worries if need to run errands at last minute after work.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: Stein on October 04, 2021, 11:07:09 AM
I bet the free chargers are much more popular than around here.
Post by: CP on October 04, 2021, 11:33:20 AM
There are 4 free charging spots at Lighthouse Park, never seen more than 2 cars there at any time. Usually either empty, or the same black Tesla that parks there overnight and walks on the ferry.
Post by: Stein on October 04, 2021, 11:39:02 AM
Post by: CP on October 04, 2021, 11:48:06 AM
Good lord, that is crazy rates. We are spoiled here.
FYI - News late last week out of a dealership is that ordering will open up Oct 26 for the lightning.
Based on how far back I am plus the extremely low production numbers being thrown around I picked up a cheap EV 2weeks ago. I could not pass up the saving for commuting @$0.057/kw my elect co charges me.
Plus I can start getting used to the EV lifestyle. I get 2full days commuting on a single charge and with 240v charge it goes from 0-100% in <8hrs. More likely I will plug it into 120v each night and keep it topped off so no worries if need to run errands at last minute after work.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
What did you get?
Post by: lamrith on October 04, 2021, 12:37:27 PM
They are Only 100mi range at best or might be only 85mi depending on source. I don't see that range with how I drive, plus HVAC load, hills, etc. While the ride is fine they are not efficient for highway running, they are best under 50-55mph. Just so happens I live 14mi from work though so it is a great fit. Better yet, I actually fit. At 6'4" that is not always easy, but this car has more headroom than my Taurus. Solid 1"+ over my head.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: CP on October 04, 2021, 12:56:09 PM
Nothing fancy or trendy, it's a 2016 Fiat 500e w/36k mi so still has factory battery warranty for few years. Was$10k otd, tags and all. Just bummed I did not find out about them 8mos ago, they were $3-4k cheaper. I wanted cheap and there is no ev cheaper at this point.
They are Only 100mi range at best or might be only 85mi depending on source. I don't see that range with how I drive, plus HVAC load, hills, etc. While the ride is fine they are not efficient for highway running, they are best under 50-55mph. Just so happens I live 14mi from work though so it is a great fit. Better yet, I actually fit. At 6'4" that is not always easy, but this car has more headroom than my Taurus. Solid 1"+ over my head.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Should serve you well. I’d probably go with something similar if I still had to commute. My commuting these days is between the man cave and the kitchen.
Post by: lamrith on October 04, 2021, 01:36:57 PM
Yeah, we are using it for everything local, being the new toy and all.Nothing fancy or trendy, it's a 2016 Fiat 500e w/36k mi so still has factory battery warranty for few years. Was$10k otd, tags and all. Just bummed I did not find out about them 8mos ago, they were $3-4k cheaper. I wanted cheap and there is no ev cheaper at this point.
They are Only 100mi range at best or might be only 85mi depending on source. I don't see that range with how I drive, plus HVAC load, hills, etc. While the ride is fine they are not efficient for highway running, they are best under 50-55mph. Just so happens I live 14mi from work though so it is a great fit. Better yet, I actually fit. At 6'4" that is not always easy, but this car has more headroom than my Taurus. Solid 1"+ over my head.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Should serve you well. I’d probably go with something similar if I still had to commute. My commuting these days is between the man cave and the kitchen.
I was pleasantly surprised with performance. On paper it looks like slug, though faster than the ICE 500'S. But it jumps right off line, electric torque will roast tires off. Nice responsive throttle at around town speeds whick makes it fun to drive.
Jealous of your commute for sure.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: CP on October 25, 2021, 08:11:07 AM
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on October 25, 2021, 08:43:04 AM
https://insideevs.com/news/542640/ford-f150-lightning-ordering-postponed/
Post by: lamrith on October 25, 2021, 10:09:06 AM
Looks like we are going to be delayed a bit.Yeah but truth be told Ford never once said a planned date. That was all speculation that became truth from one person/dealers comment. Then everyone ran with it. Don't get me wrong I was excited to get order placed, but had a feeling it was BS. Same with the 15K 1st year numbers. ONE guy writing for Reuters claimed a ford employee told him that and everyone has run with it like Gospel. Even with probably material shortages, 15K for a full years production just makes zero sense, ford makes that many normal F150 in a week. That low a number is can't be worth producing in terms of costs to run the plant versus revenue.
https://insideevs.com/news/542640/ford-f150-lightning-ordering-postponed/
Post by: Stein on October 25, 2021, 10:47:16 AM
Post by: CP on October 25, 2021, 12:07:48 PM
Let's be honest, it's a huge risk, there aren't any commercially successful electric trucks out there. Most around here seem to think it will be a hit, but it could be a flop as well. There are plenty of places to go wrong, it's not like they are just putting a new motor or trim package in a truck they have been selling for over seventy years. They got the looks right, just need to deliver on performance, reliability and features.
What if they get it right? I can see improved reliability when they get rid of thousands of moving parts. I'd just like to see them not try to do too much at once.
Post by: Stein on October 25, 2021, 01:03:58 PM
The one thing that concerns me about EVs in general is that I can go buy a water pump and swap it out in an hour for cheap. I can't go buy an aftermarket board on the $10k onboard charge controller or the computer that runs assisted driving or any of the 100 other computers needed. Likely I couldn't even troubleshoot it even if I could. All the critical parts now might be single sourced from the OEM, likely no aftermarket or any competition since it will all be patent and secret. Single source guarantees $$$$ to maintain them.
Do any non dealer shops work on these? Will the OEM provide factory service manuals or will it all be dealer only?
Best case you get aftermarket batteries, motors, simple stuff without much circuitry, but the big critical stuff could easily be kept proprietary by the OEMs. For sure the scrap market will be red hot.
Either way, I think it will be a hit. Even if they get quite a few things wrong, they can work them out. Hopefully they will treat the first owners right.
Post by: CP on October 28, 2021, 08:32:15 AM
"Ford said increased availability of semiconductor chips and higher vehicle shipments in the third quarter enabled it to post higher-than-expected results."
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/27/ford-f-earnings-q3-2021.html?__source=newsletter%7Cinvestorsclub
Post by: KP-Skagit on October 28, 2021, 08:51:41 AM
Yeah, very simple mechanically compared to gas. Unfortunately very complex electronically compared to gas. In my mind you are trading complexity at best, not reducing it.
The one thing that concerns me about EVs in general is that I can go buy a water pump and swap it out in an hour for cheap. I can't go buy an aftermarket board on the $10k onboard charge controller or the computer that runs assisted driving or any of the 100 other computers needed. Likely I couldn't even troubleshoot it even if I could. All the critical parts now might be single sourced from the OEM, likely no aftermarket or any competition since it will all be patent and secret. Single source guarantees $$$$ to maintain them.
Do any non dealer shops work on these? Will the OEM provide factory service manuals or will it all be dealer only?
Best case you get aftermarket batteries, motors, simple stuff without much circuitry, but the big critical stuff could easily be kept proprietary by the OEMs. For sure the scrap market will be red hot.
Either way, I think it will be a hit. Even if they get quite a few things wrong, they can work them out. Hopefully they will treat the first owners right.
Same crap that goes on with everyone's favorite electronic, the cell phone. Repair has fallen to replace.
Post by: Stein on October 28, 2021, 10:20:33 AM
https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/evs-offer-big-savings-over-traditional-gas-powered-cars/
Quote
The study also found that maintenance and repair costs for EVs are significantly lower over the life of the vehicle—about half—than for gasoline-powered vehicles, which require regular fluid changes and are more mechanically complex. The average dollar savings over the lifetime of the vehicle is about $4,600.
I would buy an EV today if I was looking at a new vehicle and they had what I wanted, but the maintenance does make me nervous. I haven't compared warranties, when the Lightning shows up it will be interesting to see if there are any differences in the warranty between the two technologies.
Post by: lamrith on October 28, 2021, 11:39:00 AM
Changing that water pump many times means pulling intakes, timing chains and all. I miss the old days of pull belts, unbolt and go.
Ev are less maintenance by a large margin. No oil, fuel systems, emissions, transmission, exhaust, etc.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: Stein on November 04, 2021, 04:07:10 PM
https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021/11/02/all-electric-f-100-eluminator-concept.html
Post by: CP on November 04, 2021, 04:28:54 PM
Post by: Igor on November 04, 2021, 04:34:27 PM
They should put one in an original F-100 Lightning.
I think that would be considered sacrilege.................
Post by: Stein on November 04, 2021, 05:16:31 PM
Post by: CP on November 04, 2021, 05:25:44 PM
I would be interested in putting one in my older Chevy..... For $4k you get a brand new powertrain and no fuel cost. I'll just need to get me one of those A-dapter kits.
I think $3,900 only gets you a motor.
Post by: Stein on November 04, 2021, 06:48:21 PM
So, you need a motor, battery, some sort of BMS, speed control, mechanical throttle interface, ignition interface, charging port, charger, bunch-o-wire and some way to mount it to the frame and patch it into the old drivetrain. Hopefully it's an old truck or your existing computer is going to be rather confused. Probably a few other things as well. Now I understand why it was in a concept vehicle.
Or, you could make a killer side by side with some round stock, a seat and a good life insurance policy.
Post by: lamrith on November 04, 2021, 08:36:32 PM
Exactly, that is motor assembly only no battery, controller, cooling, etc.. Plus then you need electric power steering, AC, heat, etc..I would be interested in putting one in my older Chevy..... For $4k you get a brand new powertrain and no fuel cost. I'll just need to get me one of those A-dapter kits.
I think $3,900 only gets you a motor.
Al that negativity aside, it is very cool and I look forward to seeing what complete kits $ out at.
Post by: CP on December 09, 2021, 03:59:38 PM
Post by: follow maggie on December 09, 2021, 04:27:59 PM
Post by: lamrith on December 09, 2021, 04:33:47 PM
Ford has stopped accepting reservations. They have exceeded production capability through 2022.If the rumored numbers floating around about year 1 production are correct (15K) they passed that in the first 10min of reservation banks being open.
I think it has less to do with any particular years production limits and more that the numbers are beyond anything they expected and current reports are saying ordering will finally start in Jan. The build & price was showing some data yesterday like they are prepping to make that live very soon too. They of course fixed their oversight now so the link no longer works.
I know I am pretty jazzed to get the process rolling.
Post by: CP on December 09, 2021, 06:30:53 PM
Jim Farley:
“We have a dedicated team right now just doing one thing: finding a way to double our capacity by finding batteries, whatever it takes, to double our capacity of Lightning,"
Post by: lamrith on December 09, 2021, 07:13:57 PM
Batteries are the bottleneck.True no doubt, but they are finding ways to produce 44k+ Mach-E a year so I do not think that is the holdup.?
Jim Farley:
“We have a dedicated team right now just doing one thing: finding a way to double our capacity by finding batteries, whatever it takes, to double our capacity of Lightning,"
I still just don't buy off that they plan/planned to only produce 15K lightnings the first year that honestly is a total failure if they can only make that many or planned to, it is not worth even producing and will cost them dearly in terms of customer trust/retention. There has been so much BS info about this vehicle I literally do not believe 3/4 of what I hear.
They keep talking about doubling, doubling again and now again. But no actual confirmable # aside from a single Reuters article claiming an unnamed Ford person said 15K. If that was the number then they should be at 60K 1st year now after doubling a few times. 60K honestly makes more sense for an original target number, 40-60k is what I would have expected for 1st year given they made 44k mach-e being a brand new vehicle and the lightning being a F150 they already know how to build other than EV specific items. Tesla is making Y's and 3's by the thousands, Rivian is starting to push out units so batteries are available and whlie they may not throw more weight than Tesla, they surely could bring enough weight to the game to get allocations before Rivian.. Rivian suddenly has units rolling off the line makes me wonder if Rivian did something to hose Ford hence the partnership ending..?
Post by: CP on December 10, 2021, 08:12:18 AM
Post by: lamrith on December 12, 2021, 08:22:37 PM
https://electrek.co/2021/12/10/ford-2022-mustang-mach-e/
Meanwhile I spent the entire day installing a new 70A circuit to a 14-50 outlet and hardwired Chargepoint Home Flex 50A charger for my current commuter car. Man the #4 wire is a real pita to work with!! Managed to complete the project with only 3 trips to the hardware store too.
This setup is way, WAY overkill for the little fiat which can only use half that capacity. But buy once, cry once. Plus now I am ready for any other EV I might get AND I got it done before the deadline so I can qualify for a tax credit of 30% of the install cost!
Post by: Stein on December 12, 2021, 08:28:25 PM
Good luck, can't wait to see what they are like vicariously through you guys. With the supply issues, it could be something pretty simple they are having trouble with or even marketing or sales projections.
I have a 40 A circuit for ac expansion I could use if I ever bought one but would likely have to trench for a 50 A. I added several extra expansion circuits when I upgraded our service but an EV charger wasn't on the radar.
Post by: lamrith on December 12, 2021, 08:34:06 PM
Reminds me of compact stranded wire, like trying to wire a service with rebar.Tell me about it. I JUST remodeled (down to studs and 100% new electrical) my garage 2 yrs ago. Trenched and ran 100A feed to new sub panel in garage. I added a bunch of 240V/30A locations thinking how spoiled I was and overbuilding it and ready for EV charger. I didn't realize EV were so much higher amps. :-(
Good luck, can't wait to see what they are like vicariously through you guys. With the supply issues, it could be something pretty simple they are having trouble with or even marketing or sales projections.
I have a 40 A circuit for ac expansion I could use if I ever bought one but would likely have to trench for a 50 A. I added several extra expansion circuits when I upgraded our service but an EV charger wasn't on the radar.
Now I have added two new 240V in the last year, one for Minisplit HVAC and now the big heavy run for EV. 30A service is only rated for like 24A EV charger. That's why I ran #4 and a 70A service, since the 50A charger would need 62.5A service to be properly setup.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211213/49cb072a9105505958e2189ab2bcd3db.jpg)
Post by: Stein on December 12, 2021, 08:41:45 PM
I'm glad I upgraded our service while our transformer had capacity, between the increased need for ac and ev's, I imagine it will fill up in the near future.
Post by: lamrith on December 13, 2021, 06:52:50 AM
My garage was detached hence trench for it's service upgrade to 100A (old was 30A) The old mast setup was just not suitable for the upgrade.
Thankfully our soil is not like yours and diggable by hand for the 40ft needed, though the hardpan in only about 3-4ft down.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: lamrith on December 17, 2021, 02:34:33 PM
They went over features and detail of each trim package.
98kw std battery, 131kw extended range.
Platinum comes with 80A charger and the extended battery I believe.
The 80A charger does require a 100A circuit. I missed detail on the power home part as it was dinnertime, so want to go back and rewatch.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: lamrith on December 17, 2021, 05:26:40 PM
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on December 21, 2021, 02:15:06 PM
Post by: lamrith on December 21, 2021, 02:17:31 PM
Got an email that ordering will open up beginning after the new year. They are going to stagger the ordering by sending out invitations.Yup waves every 2 weeks. Dealers had to have their priority customers submitted last fri for bump to head of line. Dealers got one time set number of bumps based on #of reservations they have.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2021, 11:35:31 AM
Post by: kselkhunter on December 28, 2021, 11:48:29 AM
I see a lot of potential for battery powered vehicles, and for this ford lightning. A few questions come to mind: I wonder how long the anticipated battery life will be? Will the battery progressively get weaker? How much to replace the battery pack?
Depends on the company. We have 13 years of history with Tesla batteries, so will use them as an example. A Tesla battery pack is warranted for 8 years and typically 150K-200K miles (depending on model), where it is supposed to still have 90% capacity at the end of that time. From a pure lifespan perspective, a Tesla battery is supposed to last for between 300K to 500K miles....but most people will replace the battery before then so as not to lose too much range. Replacement cost will depend on what batteries cost by the time you need the replacement, but expect $10K-$20K for a new pack, depending on capacity model....as EV battery production ramps up this replacement cost should reduce over time. Most companies have designed the packs into the chassis, and have a method for replacing with minimal effort. Tesla even tried out the battery swap station idea, but abandoned it.
The jury is out on all the new EV companies and models regarding battery lifespan comparison. Tesla has been the master of the EV battery design. As a comparison, the Nissan Leaf battery is closer to 70%-80% capacity at the end of that 100K-150K time frame.... Will see how Ford/Rivian/Etc. do in terms of battery life span in comparison to Tesla.
Post by: lamrith on December 28, 2021, 11:48:39 AM
I see a lot of potential for battery powered vehicles, and for this ford lightning. A few questions come to mind: I wonder how long the anticipated battery life will be? Will the battery progressively get weaker? How much to replace the battery pack?Fed mandate is currently 8yr/100Kmi warranty on battery/ev drivetrain I believe.
Batteries long term is unknown.
However it is worth mentioning that Ford specifically designed the batteries to be easily removed on the lightning. 6 or 8 bolts and it drops free and no driveshaft or exhaust in the way.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: CP on December 28, 2021, 12:22:48 PM
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2021, 07:25:41 PM
Post by: CP on January 05, 2022, 07:47:29 AM
GMs Electric Chevy Silverado Is Coming Today. Watch the Timing and the Features. -- Barrons.com
10:20 AM ET 1/5/22 | Dow Jones
Al Root
Today is a big day for General Motors. The company is expected to unveil the all-electric Chevy Silverado pickup truck at the consumer electronics show in Las Vegas.
Post by: lamrith on January 05, 2022, 08:08:55 AM
GM reservation start today 1pm eastern. Pretty interesting coincidence that it happens the day before Lightning ordering starts.. Yeah no chance they have had it all ready and waiting to pull attention/media is frenzy off Ford's launch. Gotta love the games they all play.
Lightning order banks go live tomorrow. Build&price website went live yesterday. Not super "happy" with how they have packages and battery upgrade setup. Forcing thing on you for bigger battery and also not including some pretty normal items in base lariat package and forcing extend battery pack to get it.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: CP on January 05, 2022, 08:36:18 AM
Might as well go for the Lariat @ $80,000
I wonder what the dealer fees will be?
Post by: lamrith on January 05, 2022, 08:56:54 AM
I see that the extended range battery is a $20K option for the F150-XLT but only $10k for the Lariat. But they don't give the battery size.Yeah they force xlt buyers to also add the $10k options package to get extended battery, ends up being $19500. Pretty crappy setup, some hope maybe it is bad website coding. Given the build and price does not even provide std features when you try to view details..., Honestly is rediculous to force big option group for battery upgrade.
Might as well go for the Lariat @ $80,000
I wonder what the dealer fees will be?
Depends on dealer. Rumor was some around country are saying up to $30k ADM. Capitalism or not, dealer like that can ,.!.. off imho. Specially for something someone reserved. If it hit thier lot and they paid for it/ not reserved have at it, but hosing reservation holder ....
I reserved at Korum because they are my local. I have in writing no ADM. But they also have a huge reservation list. Meaning should see more allocations, but who knows. I reserved 6/4 and and around 240 on their list, they had over 100 on reveal day.
Fugate Ford as of Christmas week told me no ADM as well.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: 509 on January 05, 2022, 08:58:50 AM
400W solar panels are down to <$300 now. Charging an EV at home without use of the energy grid is getting more economical every year that technology advances. A 5kW system is large enough to charge the Lightning based on typical daily usage and sun availability in the PNW, and a 5kW complete solar power kit costs between $5k-$7K now. Installation will vary based on location, and how much of the install you can do yourself. But with a 20 year warranty, we're talking $300-$500/yr total ammortized....which is less expensive than my annual gasoline costs.....
Where are you getting those price quotes?? Have you tried to actually get somebody to install a system???
I just added 1kW to my off-grid system. I had the panels already installed on mounts.
All I needed was for a licensed electrician to hook up the panels to the existing system.
It took me TWO years to find a licensed electrician that could do the install and he took it as a learning project!!!
I paid him $3,000 to attach the panels to the existing system.
My THREE rich neighbors from the coast all installed 5kW systems. Cost for each install was $50,000.
EVERYBODY that has NEVER installed a solar-electric system always tells me how cheap they are!!!!
Post by: CP on January 05, 2022, 09:04:23 AM
400W solar panels are down to <$300 now. Charging an EV at home without use of the energy grid is getting more economical every year that technology advances. A 5kW system is large enough to charge the Lightning based on typical daily usage and sun availability in the PNW, and a 5kW complete solar power kit costs between $5k-$7K now. Installation will vary based on location, and how much of the install you can do yourself. But with a 20 year warranty, we're talking $300-$500/yr total ammortized....which is less expensive than my annual gasoline costs.....
Where are you getting those price quotes?? Have you tried to actually get somebody to install a system???
I just added 1kW to my off-grid system. I had the panels already installed on mounts.
All I needed was for a licensed electrician to hook up the panels to the existing system.
It took me TWO years to find a licensed electrician that could do the install and he took it as a learning project!!!
I paid him $3,000 to attach the panels to the existing system.
My THREE rich neighbors from the coast all installed 5kW systems. Cost for each install was $50,000.
EVERYBODY that has NEVER installed a solar-electric system always tells me how cheap they are!!!!
Oh, so you're supposed to have a licensed electrician hook them up. :rolleyes: I've heard some people just do that themselves.
Post by: Stein on January 05, 2022, 10:46:34 AM
Finding someone to do anything right about now is not going to be easy or cheap.
Post by: 509 on January 05, 2022, 03:24:06 PM
Install the panels, apply for an inspection, fix anything wrong and get signed off.
Finding someone to do anything right about now is not going to be easy or cheap.
I have a professional skill set.
If I wanted to be an electrician I would have passed on my education and would have joined the union instead. Too old to learn new tricks!!
I don't want to be an electrician. Mine came pretty cheap at $95/hour charge.
Knowing a trade these days is worth more than a professional degree in many cases.
I am convinced it is because the trades offer "better value" for the fees charged.
Post by: kselkhunter on January 05, 2022, 03:28:17 PM
Install the panels, apply for an inspection, fix anything wrong and get signed off.
Finding someone to do anything right about now is not going to be easy or cheap.
I have a professional skill set.
If I wanted to be an electrician I would have passed on my education and would have joined the union instead. Too old to learn new tricks!!
I don't want to be an electrician. Mine came pretty cheap at $95/hour charge.
Knowing a trade these days is worth more than a professional degree in many cases.
I am convinced it is because the trades offer "better value" for the fees charged.
You complained about the wholesale systems I quoted (wholesale but ship direct to consumer as a complete kit with all instructions, diagrams, components, etc.). Those costs were from last spring, and didn't include installation. Some of us are more handy than others.....
Post by: lamrith on January 26, 2022, 06:28:26 AM
I have not asked about wave 2. Probably changing dealers since they refuse to offer the Ford options plan. One excuse after another, including "we don't have the documents for it". Sorry, that is pretty lame when you use your own laziness to justify not offering your customer a valuable financing option created by Ford to help the consumer.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: Stein on January 26, 2022, 07:48:31 AM
So waves one and two in the books. Korum said they got one wave 1 allocation.
I have not asked about wave 2. Probably changing dealers since they refuse to offer the Ford options plan. One excuse after another, including "we don't have the documents for it". Sorry, that is pretty lame when you use your own laziness to justify not offering your customer a valuable financing option created by Ford to help the consumer.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
The cynic in me wonders if Ford's financing has limits on how far above MSRP they will finance.
Post by: lamrith on January 26, 2022, 08:07:46 AM
Ford did put a memo to dealers about pricing, but it was related to dealers charging extra to place an order.
As excited as I am and wanting to order I am starting to think it might be good to wait. Just for the inevitable bugs and to let someone else take the depreciation hit. Drove a mach-e 2weeks ago, really liked it. Know some have had problems on 1st launch and still. Lightning should not given chassis is established.
Has me wondering what the used market will be in 2yrs when the mach-e are coming off lease... Could be great time to get one.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: Stein on January 26, 2022, 08:43:46 AM
Wait, I said that 2 years ago...
Post by: jackelope on January 27, 2022, 07:15:30 AM
Possibly, though Korum and fugate have both committed to msrp pricing to me.
Ford did put a memo to dealers about pricing, but it was related to dealers charging extra to place an order.
As excited as I am and wanting to order I am starting to think it might be good to wait. Just for the inevitable bugs and to let someone else take the depreciation hit. Drove a mach-e 2weeks ago, really liked it. Know some have had problems on 1st launch and still. Lightning should not given chassis is established.
Has me wondering what the used market will be in 2yrs when the mach-e are coming off lease... Could be great time to get one.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
2 weird recalls on the Mach E's so far and a bunch of software updates. If you're the type that will get excited about recalls, the Mach E is probably not for you at this point. Windshield and pano roof adhesion issues. The glass comes out, epoxy primer gets applied and the windshield and roof get put back in. It takes us about 4-5 days to get it done. We've got a couple partner body shops doing them. There's also a software update recall that addresses multiple modules with multiple issues all at once. We're not really seeing any issues with them otherwise.
Post by: jackelope on January 27, 2022, 07:23:45 AM
So waves one and two in the books. Korum said they got one wave 1 allocation.
I have not asked about wave 2. Probably changing dealers since they refuse to offer the Ford options plan. One excuse after another, including "we don't have the documents for it". Sorry, that is pretty lame when you use your own laziness to justify not offering your customer a valuable financing option created by Ford to help the consumer.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
The cynic in me wonders if Ford's financing has limits on how far above MSRP they will finance.
Ford is being pretty tight re: second stickers. Dealers were pulling creating fake orders for Bronco then cancelling them once they showed up. They'd put huge second stickers on them and sell them on the lot and people would pay for them. Ford caught on and made it so dealers can't sell a new bronco to anyone unless they have a reservation # for one now. I assume the same will hold true for Lightning.
We're selling everything new at MSRP with no haggling. Company policy. The price is the price. Ford plans like X plan or whatever would trump that I guess. We don't sell a lot of new vehicles, but we don't do second stickers either.
Post by: Stein on January 27, 2022, 07:35:33 AM
How are the dealers doing in general? Sounds like volume may be way down but per vehicle profit way up?
Post by: lamrith on January 27, 2022, 07:36:06 AM
Now if I lost my modded '13 SHO (that the entire family loves) I would be looking at a MACH-E GT AWD as the replacement. Torn on std gt or PE. I drove a premium 2weeks ago and it was not quite equal in power to my sho, so I would opt up to GT at least.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: h20hunter on January 27, 2022, 07:44:30 AM
Wow, fun stuff there.
How are the dealers doing in general? Sounds like volume may be way down but per vehicle profit way up?
I can't speak for others but yes, new car profitability is very good. I'm with a luxury brand and essentially due to low volume available you pay msrp abd that's it. Used cars of course boomimg due to lack of new car inventory. Imo, it's a great time to trade a used vehicle in on a new due to your inflated equity in the used car. Just my :twocents:.
Post by: jackelope on January 27, 2022, 07:49:47 AM
Wow, fun stuff there.
How are the dealers doing in general? Sounds like volume may be way down but per vehicle profit way up?
New vehicle pricing is normal. Volume is down because inventory is down.
Used car volume and inventory are up as are prices, but we're having to pay more for them so I'm not sure profits are way up.
Selling cars is a struggle right now. Example...I have a really good service customer who wants to buy 4 new F350 chassis cabs. A couple hundred thousand dollars worth of trucks. We can't get them. Nobody can. 10-12 months we're being told.
We have zero new trucks on the ground here. We've got some new Escapes and Ecosports, but that's about it. Put it this way....we've got used cars in our showroom to fill holes.
Post by: JakeLand on January 27, 2022, 10:18:40 AM
Post by: jackelope on January 27, 2022, 12:37:00 PM
A higher trade in value just helps the offset of the huge increase price of the new vehicle , new prices are just stupid right now so I’ll keep driving my ‘11 Tacoma with 318,000 miles until prices get back to being realistic
All I meant was new vehicle prices aren’t inflated due to shortages. New vehicles are expensive but they’re not jacking prices based on demand.
Post by: Stein on January 27, 2022, 01:02:24 PM
Post by: Igor on January 27, 2022, 01:56:07 PM
All I meant was new vehicle prices aren’t inflated due to shortages. New vehicles are expensive but they’re not jacking prices based on demand.
Not sure about that. I've been looking at new GMC trucks, and the dealers are not shy about posting right on the ads that they are pricing around 5k over MSRP. It wasn't that long ago that dealers sold trucks somewhere around 4-5-6k below MSRP.
Unless you are just talking about Fords..........
Post by: Mudman on January 27, 2022, 02:34:19 PM
Post by: jackelope on January 27, 2022, 03:11:44 PM
All I meant was new vehicle prices aren’t inflated due to shortages. New vehicles are expensive but they’re not jacking prices based on demand.
Not sure about that. I've been looking at new GMC trucks, and the dealers are not shy about posting right on the ads that they are pricing around 5k over MSRP. It wasn't that long ago that dealers sold trucks somewhere around 4-5-6k below MSRP.
Unless you are just talking about Fords..........
I work for a nationwide company. Prices are set, nationwide, and there's no haggling....but we don't second sticker either.
Post by: jackelope on January 27, 2022, 03:15:06 PM
Don't they usually sell for under MSRP in normal times? Seems like MSRP is a good deal these days if you can find something in stock.
Nobody's doing deals because there aren't any vehicles available. There's no reason for us to sell trucks at less than MSRP. I can't speak for all dealers whether or not they're marking up prices. We don't mark prices up on new vehicles. Maybe if we ever get an unsold '22 Raptor we might mark it up, or a GT500 or something like that. Regular pickups, etc. MSRP.
Ford has X plan, D plan, etc. There's no way around that if you're eligible for those plan prices you get those prices.
Post by: Igor on January 27, 2022, 03:15:52 PM
All I meant was new vehicle prices aren’t inflated due to shortages. New vehicles are expensive but they’re not jacking prices based on demand.
Not sure about that. I've been looking at new GMC trucks, and the dealers are not shy about posting right on the ads that they are pricing around 5k over MSRP. It wasn't that long ago that dealers sold trucks somewhere around 4-5-6k below MSRP.
Unless you are just talking about Fords..........
I work for a nationwide company. Prices are set, nationwide, and there's no haggling....but we don't second sticker.
So, you are talking about the company you work for not jacking prices based on demand........not auto dealers in general?
Post by: lamrith on January 27, 2022, 06:03:11 PM
Do you know if your dealer ship will offer/accept the Options plan on Ford approved vehicles?Don't they usually sell for under MSRP in normal times? Seems like MSRP is a good deal these days if you can find something in stock.
Nobody's doing deals because there aren't any vehicles available. There's no reason for us to sell trucks at less than MSRP. I can't speak for all dealers whether or not they're marking up prices. We don't mark prices up on new vehicles. Maybe if we ever get an unsold '22 Raptor we might mark it up, or a GT500 or something like that. Regular pickups, etc. MSRP.
Ford has X plan, D plan, etc. There's no way around that if you're eligible for those plan prices you get those prices.
Post by: jackelope on January 27, 2022, 06:41:17 PM
All I meant was new vehicle prices aren’t inflated due to shortages. New vehicles are expensive but they’re not jacking prices based on demand.
Not sure about that. I've been looking at new GMC trucks, and the dealers are not shy about posting right on the ads that they are pricing around 5k over MSRP. It wasn't that long ago that dealers sold trucks somewhere around 4-5-6k below MSRP.
Unless you are just talking about Fords..........
I work for a nationwide company. Prices are set, nationwide, and there's no haggling....but we don't second sticker.
So, you are talking about the company you work for not jacking prices based on demand........not auto dealers in general?
I certainly can’t speak for all car dealers. They’re mostly all independent dealers and privately owned businesses who make their own rules because they can. Maybe the way I should word it differently would be that the manufacturers are not raising MSRP’s on vehicles in these scenarios.
What another dealership does is up to them. With the exception of Tesla, the dealers are not owned or controlled by the Manufacturer. They can list a truck for $50k over MSRP if they want to. It’s not their fault if someone decides to pay for it.
Post by: jackelope on January 27, 2022, 06:41:35 PM
Do you know if your dealer ship will offer/accept the Options plan on Ford approved vehicles?Don't they usually sell for under MSRP in normal times? Seems like MSRP is a good deal these days if you can find something in stock.
Nobody's doing deals because there aren't any vehicles available. There's no reason for us to sell trucks at less than MSRP. I can't speak for all dealers whether or not they're marking up prices. We don't mark prices up on new vehicles. Maybe if we ever get an unsold '22 Raptor we might mark it up, or a GT500 or something like that. Regular pickups, etc. MSRP.
Ford has X plan, D plan, etc. There's no way around that if you're eligible for those plan prices you get those prices.
No clue. I don’t even know what that is.
Post by: lamrith on January 27, 2022, 08:17:49 PM
Options plan (to paraphrase) is a Lease option for the Mach-E and Lightning that gives the Leasee the ability to get the Federal EV Tax credit. Normal lease Ford or the dealer (I am not sure which) gets the credit, not the Leasee.
Do you know if your dealer ship will offer/accept the Options plan on Ford approved vehicles?
No clue. I don’t even know what that is.
https://www.ford.com/finance/finance-options/ford-options/?fbclid=IwAR3B_8S3-3BbgMYcutmcLBtxk8BQ5oC2Cp1pNKDS7t2qMhytc6DbYgIW0-E
Post by: jackelope on January 27, 2022, 08:21:59 PM
Options plan (to paraphrase) is a Lease option for the Mach-E and Lightning that gives the Leasee the ability to get the Federal EV Tax credit. Normal lease Ford or the dealer (I am not sure which) gets the credit, not the Leasee.Do you know if your dealer ship will offer/accept the Options plan on Ford approved vehicles?
No clue. I don’t even know what that is.
https://www.ford.com/finance/finance-options/ford-options/?fbclid=IwAR3B_8S3-3BbgMYcutmcLBtxk8BQ5oC2Cp1pNKDS7t2qMhytc6DbYgIW0-E
[/quote]
I’ll ask the sales side tomorrow. I try to avoid them as much as possible.
Post by: lamrith on January 28, 2022, 05:46:43 AM
Hahaaa I think many people do.Options plan (to paraphrase) is a Lease option for the Mach-E and Lightning that gives the Leasee the ability to get the Federal EV Tax credit. Normal lease Ford or the dealer (I am not sure which) gets the credit, not the Leasee.Do you know if your dealer ship will offer/accept the Options plan on Ford approved vehicles?
No clue. I don’t even know what that is.
https://www.ford.com/finance/finance-options/ford-options/?fbclid=IwAR3B_8S3-3BbgMYcutmcLBtxk8BQ5oC2Cp1pNKDS7t2qMhytc6DbYgIW0-E
I’ll ask the sales side tomorrow. I try to avoid them as much as possible.
Sorry I messed up the quote chain, tried to trim it down and somehow got off by one. Should be better now.
Post by: jackelope on January 28, 2022, 12:38:00 PM
Hahaaa I think many people do.Options plan (to paraphrase) is a Lease option for the Mach-E and Lightning that gives the Leasee the ability to get the Federal EV Tax credit. Normal lease Ford or the dealer (I am not sure which) gets the credit, not the Leasee.Do you know if your dealer ship will offer/accept the Options plan on Ford approved vehicles?
No clue. I don’t even know what that is.
https://www.ford.com/finance/finance-options/ford-options/?fbclid=IwAR3B_8S3-3BbgMYcutmcLBtxk8BQ5oC2Cp1pNKDS7t2qMhytc6DbYgIW0-E
I’ll ask the sales side tomorrow. I try to avoid them as much as possible.
Sorry I messed up the quote chain, tried to trim it down and somehow got off by one. Should be better now.
@lamrith
We accept that options plan you mentioned.
Post by: jackelope on May 07, 2022, 09:32:29 AM
Dealers Who Flip Ford F-150 Lightning Demo Trucks Face $25K Fine
Post by: CP on May 07, 2022, 09:56:53 AM
https://www.thedrive.com/news/dealers-who-flip-ford-f-150-lightning-demo-trucks-face-25k-fine?fbclid=IwAR0lBE-WQfqE_uZ2lV49HmcUrGOCjGUUnoc0D3rFipfls8w6TJ2reBB_GSc
Dealers Who Flip Ford F-150 Lightning Demo Trucks Face $25K Fine
Does any dealership actually have a demo truck?
Post by: lamrith on May 07, 2022, 10:03:31 AM
Based on videos from some owner events it sounds like they are heat governed like the MME and pull power after a certain amount of WOT.
Post by: jackelope on May 07, 2022, 05:54:13 PM
https://www.thedrive.com/news/dealers-who-flip-ford-f-150-lightning-demo-trucks-face-25k-fine?fbclid=IwAR0lBE-WQfqE_uZ2lV49HmcUrGOCjGUUnoc0D3rFipfls8w6TJ2reBB_GSc
Dealers Who Flip Ford F-150 Lightning Demo Trucks Face $25K Fine
Does any dealership actually have a demo truck?
I haven’t seen one yet.
I think this probably all stemmed from the Bronco cluster.
Post by: jackelope on June 22, 2022, 03:34:31 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220622/0fe8727f8c3580238e556c8a2d2b21dd.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220622/e71d32b537e86be34f2f796134aea870.jpg)
Post by: Stein on June 22, 2022, 04:10:12 PM
Post by: Alchase on June 22, 2022, 04:24:10 PM
But I would love to have that space, without have to deal with the EV part, :chuckle:
Post by: lamrith on June 22, 2022, 04:51:45 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220622/0d51ed2894e6d86b85eb045829fddee4.jpg)That one got your name on it Jackelope?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220622/0fe8727f8c3580238e556c8a2d2b21dd.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220622/e71d32b537e86be34f2f796134aea870.jpg)
I have not seen one in the wild yet, but they are around. Guy on a FB group got his red one from Fugate last week.
Post by: jackelope on June 22, 2022, 06:48:37 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220622/0d51ed2894e6d86b85eb045829fddee4.jpg)That one got your name on it Jackelope?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220622/0fe8727f8c3580238e556c8a2d2b21dd.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220622/e71d32b537e86be34f2f796134aea870.jpg)
I have not seen one in the wild yet, but they are around. Guy on a FB group got his red one from Fugate last week.
We have 700 reservations for them. We’ve been allocated 2 so far.
Post by: jackelope on June 22, 2022, 06:49:05 PM
Post by: colersu22 on June 22, 2022, 07:36:46 PM
I do like the looks of the rivian truck and SUV but can’t get away from the diesel truck, I could see getting one of the rivian SUV’s for the wife since she is a stay at home mom but haven’t seen much for charging rivian around here.
Post by: lamrith on June 22, 2022, 07:48:19 PM
I saw a post on Reddit the other day of a window sticker for 130k for one, it was 65k for the truck with a 65k market adjustment line. I’m not sure how many they will sell with that kind of mark up.It gets better. I have ben seeing news the last few days that Ford is allowing Dealers to force buyers to sign a no sale agreement. Meaning You placed your order, waited, paid whatever the dealer forced you to, and you are not allowed to sell your vehicle for a year. You have to sell it back to the dealer, so they get to make all the profit.
I do like the looks of the rivian truck and SUV but can’t get away from the diesel truck, I could see getting one of the rivian SUV’s for the wife since she is a stay at home mom but haven’t seen much for charging rivian around here.
https://www.autoblog.com/2022/06/22/ford-f150-lightning-markups-no-resale-policy/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAGximMvdTnfgbksduFinmTqIaN5V5MUgvXZ81L0B0lkHcA0KWYblxDoik3sYytGeTdbtA2_v51oLcQont0j5QschnmOxkbhgmM23c2lGXQBRkK56cRveDlCjVozYd0I1BGMEct5mEj8-ApHZZNjWMoRLy3XhG43MCTPjiSKLlhgp
Post by: JakeLand on June 23, 2022, 07:40:48 AM
Post by: CP on June 27, 2022, 01:53:06 PM
Post by: Learo2000GT on June 27, 2022, 02:27:35 PM
Already recalled.
Small recall for TPMS (air pressure monitoring system) on 20-22 inch tires.
Post by: follow maggie on June 28, 2022, 08:54:11 AM
Post by: jackelope on June 28, 2022, 01:08:39 PM
Already recalled.
Dozens of recalls on dozens of vehicle makes and manufacturers. I don't even blink at recalls anymore.
Post by: jackelope on June 28, 2022, 01:51:19 PM
I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
3 motor Tesla Cyber truck has an estimated towing range of 250 miles and a tow capacity of 14k pounds.
https://tractionlife.com/cybertruck-towing-capacity-and-payload-specs/
Post by: Igor on June 28, 2022, 02:44:16 PM
I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
3 motor Tesla Cyber truck has an estimated towing range of 250 miles and a tow capacity of 14k pounds.
https://tractionlife.com/cybertruck-towing-capacity-and-payload-specs/
If you showed up in the Methow valley in one of those Tesla Cyber trucks, Jingles and his buddies would be throwing rocks at you !!
Post by: Stein on June 28, 2022, 03:14:22 PM
There are electric semi trucks and commercial delivery trucks in advanced testing right now, I would imagine that it could trickle down to the consumer market but I wonder if the manufacturers are unsure what the demand would be. Most of the guys around this site seem to say they would never own one. It may be the market for electric trucks is mostly short easy tows and around town stuff.
I tow a 3k boat 35 miles roundtrip, it would work for everything but my hunting trips and long road trips as is. I think with the capacity they have right now, the bigger question is how fast can they make charging and how many charger locations can they install? I wouldn't mind two stopping MT if it was 15-20 minutes a stop, but 3-4 stops and some stops at an hour is a no-go.
It's only a matter of time.
Post by: follow maggie on June 28, 2022, 07:45:31 PM
I think they’re being pretty optimistic on that, unless they’re only considering a flat deck trailerI saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
3 motor Tesla Cyber truck has an estimated towing range of 250 miles and a tow capacity of 14k pounds.
https://tractionlife.com/cybertruck-towing-capacity-and-payload-specs/
Post by: lamrith on June 28, 2022, 08:25:50 PM
with a tailwind.I think they’re being pretty optimistic on that, unless they’re only considering a flat deck trailerI saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
3 motor Tesla Cyber truck has an estimated towing range of 250 miles and a tow capacity of 14k pounds.
https://tractionlife.com/cybertruck-towing-capacity-and-payload-specs/
Elon has never had a concept vehicle he did not overpromise and under deliver.. Plus honestly it is hideous.
Post by: Stein on June 28, 2022, 08:39:09 PM
Post by: follow maggie on June 29, 2022, 12:01:34 PM
with a tailwind.I think they’re being pretty optimistic on that, unless they’re only considering a flat deck trailerI saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
3 motor Tesla Cyber truck has an estimated towing range of 250 miles and a tow capacity of 14k pounds.
https://tractionlife.com/cybertruck-towing-capacity-and-payload-specs/
Elon has never had a concept vehicle he did not overpromise and under deliver.. Plus honestly it is hideous.
It is really ugly. It looks like it was designed by a drunk third grader
Post by: Zardoz on July 08, 2022, 11:33:31 AM
I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
:rolleyes:
https://www.westernjournal.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure-make-85-miles/
Post by: jackelope on July 08, 2022, 03:38:08 PM
I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
:rolleyes:
https://www.westernjournal.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure-make-85-miles/
They're not designed for towing long distances.
:dunno:
Post by: lamrith on July 08, 2022, 09:04:38 PM
People just don't get it. Everyone seems to think it will have the power of a F350 with the economy of a Prius.I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
:rolleyes:
https://www.westernjournal.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure-make-85-miles/
They're not designed for towing long distances.
:dunno:
The members here are extreme users. This truck is not designed for most people on this forum that are sportsmen etc needing long range, towing campers, out in boonies etc. It is for the 90% of std F150 owner that runs around town, drive to work, home depot, yardsales, etc..
Post by: follow maggie on July 09, 2022, 07:26:26 AM
:yeah: It seems to be a really good pickup for what it’s designed for.People just don't get it. Everyone seems to think it will have the power of a F350 with the economy of a Prius.I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
:rolleyes:
https://www.westernjournal.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure-make-85-miles/
They're not designed for towing long distances.
:dunno:
The members here are extreme users. This truck is not designed for most people on this forum that are sportsmen etc needing long range, towing campers, out in boonies etc. It is for the 90% of std F150 owner that runs around town, drive to work, home depot, yardsales, etc..
Post by: CP on July 09, 2022, 08:18:46 AM
Around town,
On the highway,
Towing,
Etc.
?
Post by: Bob33 on July 09, 2022, 08:26:15 AM
What happens to the 10% when BEVs are the only option available?People just don't get it. Everyone seems to think it will have the power of a F350 with the economy of a Prius.I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
:rolleyes:
https://www.westernjournal.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure-make-85-miles/
They're not designed for towing long distances.
:dunno:
The members here are extreme users. This truck is not designed for most people on this forum that are sportsmen etc needing long range, towing campers, out in boonies etc. It is for the 90% of std F150 owner that runs around town, drive to work, home depot, yardsales, etc..
Post by: jackelope on July 09, 2022, 08:45:49 AM
Technology happens. Someone designs a truck that can tow a trailer for extended ranges.What happens to the 10% when BEVs are the only option available?People just don't get it. Everyone seems to think it will have the power of a F350 with the economy of a Prius.I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
:rolleyes:
https://www.westernjournal.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure-make-85-miles/
They're not designed for towing long distances.
:dunno:
The members here are extreme users. This truck is not designed for most people on this forum that are sportsmen etc needing long range, towing campers, out in boonies etc. It is for the 90% of std F150 owner that runs around town, drive to work, home depot, yardsales, etc..
Tesla semi has a range of 500 miles fully loaded and a 0-60 time of 20 seconds with an 80k pound load.
https://www.tesla.com/semi
Post by: HntnFsh on July 09, 2022, 08:55:57 AM
Technology happens. Someone designs a truck that can tow a trailer for extended ranges.What happens to the 10% when BEVs are the only option available?People just don't get it. Everyone seems to think it will have the power of a F350 with the economy of a Prius.I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
:rolleyes:
https://www.westernjournal.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure-make-85-miles/
They're not designed for towing long distances.
:dunno:
The members here are extreme users. This truck is not designed for most people on this forum that are sportsmen etc needing long range, towing campers, out in boonies etc. It is for the 90% of std F150 owner that runs around town, drive to work, home depot, yardsales, etc..
Tesla semi has a range of 500 miles fully loaded and a 0-60 time of 20 seconds with an 80k pound load.
https://www.tesla.com/semi
Is it an 80,000 pound load? Or 80,000 pound gross? Big difference. How much does the truck and trailer weigh? I'm going to guess that by the time the extra weight of batteries etc. is added in that an electric vehicle will not haul as much as a similarly sized diesel rig. Thus needing more rigs on the road to carry the same amount of product.
Post by: jackelope on July 09, 2022, 09:01:57 AM
Technology happens. Someone designs a truck that can tow a trailer for extended ranges.What happens to the 10% when BEVs are the only option available?People just don't get it. Everyone seems to think it will have the power of a F350 with the economy of a Prius.I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
:rolleyes:
https://www.westernjournal.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure-make-85-miles/
They're not designed for towing long distances.
:dunno:
The members here are extreme users. This truck is not designed for most people on this forum that are sportsmen etc needing long range, towing campers, out in boonies etc. It is for the 90% of std F150 owner that runs around town, drive to work, home depot, yardsales, etc..
Tesla semi has a range of 500 miles fully loaded and a 0-60 time of 20 seconds with an 80k pound load.
https://www.tesla.com/semi
Is it an 80,000 pound load? Or 80,000 pound gross? Big difference. How much does the truck and trailer weigh? I'm going to guess that by the time the extra weight of batteries etc. is added in that an electric vehicle will not haul as much as a similarly sized diesel rig. Thus needing more rigs on the road to carry the same amount of product.
There’s a link there with Tesla’s info.
Post by: jackelope on July 09, 2022, 09:03:38 AM
“Tesla Semi electric truck exceeds range expectation almost fully loaded, says test driver”
“A Tesla Semi electric truck prototype was spotted doing some range tests with an almost full load of 75,000 lbs, and the test driver said that it was meeting or even “exceeding” range expectations.”
Post by: HntnFsh on July 09, 2022, 09:11:56 AM
Post by: follow maggie on July 09, 2022, 10:29:47 AM
Technology happens. Someone designs a truck that can tow a trailer for extended ranges.What happens to the 10% when BEVs are the only option available?People just don't get it. Everyone seems to think it will have the power of a F350 with the economy of a Prius.I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
:rolleyes:
https://www.westernjournal.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure-make-85-miles/
They're not designed for towing long distances.
:dunno:
The members here are extreme users. This truck is not designed for most people on this forum that are sportsmen etc needing long range, towing campers, out in boonies etc. It is for the 90% of std F150 owner that runs around town, drive to work, home depot, yardsales, etc..
Tesla semi has a range of 500 miles fully loaded and a 0-60 time of 20 seconds with an 80k pound load.
https://www.tesla.com/semi
Is it an 80,000 pound load? Or 80,000 pound gross? Big difference. How much does the truck and trailer weigh? I'm going to guess that by the time the extra weight of batteries etc. is added in that an electric vehicle will not haul as much as a similarly sized diesel rig. Thus needing more rigs on the road to carry the same amount of product.
They can just put a higher gvwr on the trucking they need it & build it accordingly. License fees are a bigger factor in setting a truck’s gvwr than the capability of the truck.
Freightliner already has an electric semi. It’s curb weight is 16,000-21,000 pounds depending on battery size & how many drive axles. I had a 26’ box truck from freightliner that weighed a little over 15,000 empty. The semi tractors you see on the highway every day weigh 17,000-20,000
Post by: Stein on July 09, 2022, 10:59:54 AM
Has anyone figured out how many watt-hours per mile it uses:
Around town,
On the highway,
Towing,
Etc.
?
I think a bit over 500 rated for around town for the Ford and a bit under 500 for the Rivian. I haven't seen towing, it would depend on weight, shape of trailer and a bunch of other variables I don't think there is a standard for.
MPG equivalent are rated around 65-70.
Post by: Stein on July 09, 2022, 11:01:34 AM
What happens to the 10% when BEVs are the only option available?People just don't get it. Everyone seems to think it will have the power of a F350 with the economy of a Prius.I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
:rolleyes:
https://www.westernjournal.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure-make-85-miles/
They're not designed for towing long distances.
:dunno:
The members here are extreme users. This truck is not designed for most people on this forum that are sportsmen etc needing long range, towing campers, out in boonies etc. It is for the 90% of std F150 owner that runs around town, drive to work, home depot, yardsales, etc..
Won't happen. People can still ride horses if they want, gas vehicles will be around as long as there is gas to put in them and people want to buy gas. They will go away when nobody wants one, kind of like a horse carriage. Nobody outlawed them, they just went away when nobody wanted to buy one.
Post by: lamrith on July 09, 2022, 05:03:28 PM
Has anyone figured out how many watt-hours per mile it uses:Outside of Tesla it seems most EV folks use Mi/KW. The Watt per mile I think though has a finer measurement.
Around town,
On the highway,
Towing,
Etc.
?
I have been hearing 2-3Mi/Kw from folks with the lightning. Big swing, but so is how people drive, the places they live etc.
As an example I daily drive a Fiat 500E. People around the country are always touting thier 4-5mi/Kw I saw 5mi/Kw once. Running no HVAC, seat heaters and driving like an annoying prius driver all other drivers hate, and that was my trip in to work which is all flat/downhill. I like to drive and I drive hard, normal days I am in the 3.5mi/KW range. My base rate is $0.057/Kw from my power company. After taxes and fees it is $0.07. Yeah I will tell you I laugh my way to and from work every day driving the 500E.
The sad part is that it sounds like ford will run out of Tax credit very soon, before the end of the year, maybe even this quarter. THAT really sux and makes the lighting that much more expensive. I am reservation holder on lightning and the Silverado EV. But I may very well end up going a different route as I am realizing that I do not need the abilities of a pickup as much as I used to since closing my side business. Anything I need to haul I can use a utility trailer that costs a few hundred $ and not have a huge car payment. Some of the crossover/small SUV EV's have basic towing ability too...
Post by: CP on July 09, 2022, 05:25:58 PM
I'll keep the ICE F150 though.
Post by: lamrith on August 08, 2022, 12:47:51 PM
Er range lightnings would be out I am pretty sure due to price.
Rumor out of fordauthority website is that 2023 order banks open tomorrow for lightning.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: Stein on August 08, 2022, 01:35:49 PM
Post by: lamrith on August 09, 2022, 12:23:35 PM
Big MSRP jump combined with loss of tax credits means extended range lightnings get a 13-16k price jump for '23. Rest of them get min 6k price jump.
Honestly think they lost their minds. All this talk about increasing production to meet demand. A jump like that will kill demand real quick, moreso combined with higher interest rates. I don't think Ford thought this thru fully.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220809/3a4b59ea197d0025402e1ec488a8f782.jpg)
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: Stein on August 09, 2022, 01:36:43 PM
Chevy is a year behind, so no direct competition from them. Same with Dodge, same with Toyota. Tesla....we'll nobody's holding their breath.
So, you have Rivian or an F-150. They'll sell as fast as they can get them to the dealers. Many states have incentives, WA is behind the curve there despite our greenie governor's talk. Many companies also have EV incentives, a buddy just got $3k from his employer.
Gas XLT is what, $52k at the high end? That's only $9k more for an electric before any incentives. 5 year payback with no incentives, less with. That assumes you don't get slammed with the huge EV Inslee tax like CP did, but most people will find out about that after the ink is dry on the sales contract.
Post by: lamrith on August 11, 2022, 05:25:01 AM
No wonder places like NY of all places has a much higher EV adoption and demand than here. That is why many states got more lightning allocation than WA. NY, TX, CA to name a few.
Post by: lamrith on August 18, 2022, 02:39:45 PM
Stipulations are so tight that only 17 out of 70 EVs currently available will qualify..
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: CP on August 18, 2022, 02:42:22 PM
Post by: lamrith on August 18, 2022, 03:04:52 PM
Simply no good justifiable reason to kick the one requirement in on signing and none of the rest.
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: CP on August 18, 2022, 03:10:47 PM
Post by: lamrith on August 18, 2022, 06:07:08 PM
Sorry to hear that. Did you get your deposit back? Or are you still hoping to get get your EV?I am letting my order ride for now since there is a long wait. Also hoping that maybe dealers trim back the ADM's before mine arrives given the spike in price that I am sure will curb demand. $7500 is not a small hit for many.
Post by: Stein on August 18, 2022, 07:03:55 PM
Bummer, I hope it works out for you one way or another.
Post by: lamrith on August 18, 2022, 07:20:26 PM
I was wondering how that bill is going to cool the economy off (inflation reduction?). I guess we know one piece of that, pass a bill that touts the environmental claims while actually not even paying the incentive you did before the bill was passed. Best of both worlds (from their perspective I guess). :dunno:I think you nailed it the more I have been thinking about it. It should probably have just that effect especially when coupled with the jump in Fed rate we have had, while also promoting US Mfg. Honestly I wish they left out the mineral component, the last thing we need its co tearing up the land we have for this stuff. Let other countries nuke their enviro to mine the ore but build the packs and cars here.
Bummer, I hope it works out for you one way or another.
Yeah I will be fine, just a bit salty :-p Snooze you loose. I knew I wanted the vehicle a few months ago and should have been on it hammering dealers by phone and getting an order placed, but was not thinking I had till end of year no worries. Plus I was being Financially responsible (a 1st for me) and paid of current vehicle 1st.
:IBCOOL:
Post by: jackelope on September 07, 2022, 10:17:57 PM
Post by: lamrith on September 09, 2022, 02:41:17 PM
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: fowl smacker on September 09, 2022, 03:07:54 PM
Post by: brew on January 24, 2023, 12:52:51 PM
Post by: Mudman on January 24, 2023, 04:47:09 PM
Post by: lamrith on January 24, 2023, 05:15:34 PM
We have two Pro's at work along with 2 mach e's. I work for the State so we are mandated to have them per Inslee's orders. They are comfortable and go fast but the range is 170 miles (cars are about 280). Trucks take a lot longer to recharge then Mustangs. I can't get used to driving a vehicle that doesn't have engine soundThe trucks, even SR like you have are a bigger battery than the MachE. 70Kw vs 98Kw
What sort of chargers are you running? Hopefully hardwired 240 @ 50A, that way you get the max 11-11.5Kw they can take.
How have they been working overall for your crew?
Post by: brew on January 24, 2023, 05:47:49 PM
Post by: Mudman on January 24, 2023, 05:49:02 PM
Post by: bearpaw on January 29, 2023, 05:11:10 AM
You all know Toyota is the smart one and wayyy ahead of the rest??? They are pulling the plug so to speak on electric new models. Toyota is going Hydrogen. It was always about hydro for the future and good news is it still has a go fast engine!!!! My next buy will be hydro. EV's will be worthless. Tesla bankrupt.. Pull your stocks. :twocents:
:yeah: I agree, hydrogen has so much more potential and practicality.
Post by: JDHasty on January 29, 2023, 07:33:21 AM
My inclination is that for anyone who leaves town regularly to travel somewhere the hangers on to this technology that never was going to serve that purpose efficiently are even becoming frustrated. For a person who rarely, or never, leaves town they can be a valid option. For a person who travels around the region… I can pay for more gasoline, but if there is any way to buy a ten additional hours to fit inside the time I have to a week’s vacation to make up for the wasted time lost to sitting around waiting for my vehicle to charge, it’s a well kept secret.
Post by: Stein on January 29, 2023, 09:41:39 AM
If I had to guess, a combo of gas/diesel and electric will be around for quite a while. It's about the perfect mix we can currently make.
Post by: jackelope on January 29, 2023, 10:43:01 AM
I'm not sure what problem hydrogen solves. It's $5-8 a gallon equivalent, still requires a battery propulsion system, creates significant explosion and leak risks, is an incredibly complex system that's difficult to work on and requires completely new service infrastructure and there are a fraction of even the EV charging stations. It seems to be combining the worst characteristics of other vehicles. Cost prohibitive to run, hard to fuel, complex and hard to repair.
If I had to guess, a combo of gas/diesel and electric will be around for quite a while. It's about the perfect mix we can currently make.
Kinda where I was at.
I also thought this was a thread about the Lightning, not about the downfalls of EV’s and the upsides of an alternate fuel that mostly doesn’t exist yet. Apparently anything is better than electric, even if it doesn’t exist yet. Or… did I miss all the hydrogen powered vehicles on the road and all the hydrogen filling stations? How’s it possible to compare and say hydrogen is far superior when it doesn’t exist yet?
I’m not pimping EV. In fact I’m literally almost arguing with my wife as I type this because she wants one. I am wondering how we can honestly say hydrogen is better when it doesn’t exist yet though.
Im a fan of hybrids.
Post by: Alchase on January 29, 2023, 02:37:46 PM
Until every apartment, condo, and house at the very least comes with a charger. And the charging technology is comparable in times and availability to a gas fill up. It won’t be practical for most people. If it was a better option there would be not need for ridiculous mandates.
As jackalope said, Hybrids are a much viable “option” emphasis on option. Provide a better option the. Gas or diesel, and people would jump on it in a heartbeat. Try to beat us into submission with mandates, will never work.
Democrats never seem to figure this out.
Post by: jackelope on January 29, 2023, 03:02:51 PM
Post by: MR5x5 on January 29, 2023, 03:08:43 PM
I'm not sure what problem hydrogen solves. It's $5-8 a gallon equivalent, still requires a battery propulsion system, creates significant explosion and leak risks, is an incredibly complex system that's difficult to work on and requires completely new service infrastructure and there are a fraction of even the EV charging stations. It seems to be combining the worst characteristics of other vehicles. Cost prohibitive to run, hard to fuel, complex and hard to repair.
If I had to guess, a combo of gas/diesel and electric will be around for quite a while. It's about the perfect mix we can currently make.
Kinda where I was at.
I also thought this was a thread about the Lightning, not about the downfalls of EV’s and the upsides of an alternate fuel that mostly doesn’t exist yet. Apparently anything is better than electric, even if it doesn’t exist yet. Or… did I miss all the hydrogen powered vehicles on the road and all the hydrogen filling stations? How’s it possible to compare and say hydrogen is far superior when it doesn’t exist yet?
I’m not pimping EV. In fact I’m literally almost arguing with my wife as I type this because she wants one. I am wondering how we can honestly say hydrogen is better when it doesn’t exist yet though.
Im a fan of hybrids.
Hydrogen, either used in an IC engine or fuel cell format is a long way away, if ever for passenger vehicles. Best solution would be environmentally safe batteries, sodium based perhaps, combined with home, or very local, electrical power sources, i.e. micro nukes or high efficiency solar. All of these technologies are currently under development. It will be interesting to see how it evolves over the next 30+ yrs.
For state of the art as far as Hydrogen EV goes check the link below. Cool local company. Currently gaseous hydrogen powered transitioning to liquid over the next few years.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90837208/the-worlds-largest-zero-emission-truck-is-more-than-two-stories-tall
Post by: MR5x5 on January 29, 2023, 03:11:52 PM
Every apartment/house/condo has an outlet and that’s all you need because the cars all come with 120v chargers. So waiting for every one to have a charger isn’t really a necessity assuming the residences run on electricity.
Not really. If projected/desired adoption levels of EVs happen, it will require a doubling, at least, of the entire electrical grid. You can only push so much juice down the wires.
Post by: Alchase on January 29, 2023, 05:04:02 PM
Every apartment/house/condo has an outlet and that’s all you need because the cars all come with 120v chargers. So waiting for every one to have a charger isn’t really a necessity assuming the residences run on electricity.
Not really. If projected/desired adoption levels of EVs happen, it will require a doubling, at least, of the entire electrical grid. You can only push so much juice down the wires.
Very few with the acception of the higher end apartments and condos even hav designated parking, let alone parking near an outlet.
Post by: jackelope on January 29, 2023, 05:30:51 PM
Every apartment/house/condo has an outlet and that’s all you need because the cars all come with 120v chargers. So waiting for every one to have a charger isn’t really a necessity assuming the residences run on electricity.
Not really. If projected/desired adoption levels of EVs happen, it will require a doubling, at least, of the entire electrical grid. You can only push so much juice down the wires.
Very few with the acception of the higher end apartments and condos even hav designated parking, let alone parking near an outlet.
There’s a time and a place for all of this. Mandates aren’t the answer. EV’s have a place. They’re definitely not for everyone.
PS my sister in law in a mid price range condo in Everett has an EV, a designated parking space and access to an outlet.
Post by: jackelope on January 29, 2023, 05:31:42 PM
I'm not sure what problem hydrogen solves. It's $5-8 a gallon equivalent, still requires a battery propulsion system, creates significant explosion and leak risks, is an incredibly complex system that's difficult to work on and requires completely new service infrastructure and there are a fraction of even the EV charging stations. It seems to be combining the worst characteristics of other vehicles. Cost prohibitive to run, hard to fuel, complex and hard to repair.
If I had to guess, a combo of gas/diesel and electric will be around for quite a while. It's about the perfect mix we can currently make.
Kinda where I was at.
I also thought this was a thread about the Lightning, not about the downfalls of EV’s and the upsides of an alternate fuel that mostly doesn’t exist yet. Apparently anything is better than electric, even if it doesn’t exist yet. Or… did I miss all the hydrogen powered vehicles on the road and all the hydrogen filling stations? How’s it possible to compare and say hydrogen is far superior when it doesn’t exist yet?
I’m not pimping EV. In fact I’m literally almost arguing with my wife as I type this because she wants one. I am wondering how we can honestly say hydrogen is better when it doesn’t exist yet though.
Im a fan of hybrids.
Hydrogen, either used in an IC engine or fuel cell format is a long way away, if ever for passenger vehicles. Best solution would be environmentally safe batteries, sodium based perhaps, combined with home, or very local, electrical power sources, i.e. micro nukes or high efficiency solar. All of these technologies are currently under development. It will be interesting to see how it evolves over the next 30+ yrs.
For state of the art as far as Hydrogen EV goes check the link below. Cool local company. Currently gaseous hydrogen powered transitioning to liquid over the next few years.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90837208/the-worlds-largest-zero-emission-truck-is-more-than-two-stories-tall
That’s my point, regarding to promotion of hydrogen in the posts above.
Post by: follow maggie on January 29, 2023, 05:55:10 PM
Every apartment/house/condo has an outlet and that’s all you need because the cars all come with 120v chargers. So waiting for every one to have a charger isn’t really a necessity assuming the residences run on electricity.
Not really. If projected/desired adoption levels of EVs happen, it will require a doubling, at least, of the entire electrical grid. You can only push so much juice down the wires.
Very few with the acception of the higher end apartments and condos even hav designated parking, let alone parking near an outlet.
That’s highly variable. It may be true where you live but is nowhere near true everywhere. Where I live almost all apartment/condo places have parking lots or garages. Nearly all of the garages have electricity for each stall and it’s very easy to run electricity through a parking lot. When I was little the parking lot of the apartment we lived in had outlets in the parking lot for people to plug their block heaters in. As battery cars get more common, more places will add it to be more competitive f be able to charge a little higher rent.
Post by: Stein on January 29, 2023, 08:15:09 PM
Post by: Stein on January 29, 2023, 08:20:11 PM
I'm not sure what problem hydrogen solves. It's $5-8 a gallon equivalent, still requires a battery propulsion system, creates significant explosion and leak risks, is an incredibly complex system that's difficult to work on and requires completely new service infrastructure and there are a fraction of even the EV charging stations. It seems to be combining the worst characteristics of other vehicles. Cost prohibitive to run, hard to fuel, complex and hard to repair.
If I had to guess, a combo of gas/diesel and electric will be around for quite a while. It's about the perfect mix we can currently make.
Kinda where I was at.
I also thought this was a thread about the Lightning, not about the downfalls of EV’s and the upsides of an alternate fuel that mostly doesn’t exist yet. Apparently anything is better than electric, even if it doesn’t exist yet. Or… did I miss all the hydrogen powered vehicles on the road and all the hydrogen filling stations? How’s it possible to compare and say hydrogen is far superior when it doesn’t exist yet?
I’m not pimping EV. In fact I’m literally almost arguing with my wife as I type this because she wants one. I am wondering how we can honestly say hydrogen is better when it doesn’t exist yet though.
Im a fan of hybrids.
Hydrogen, either used in an IC engine or fuel cell format is a long way away, if ever for passenger vehicles. Best solution would be environmentally safe batteries, sodium based perhaps, combined with home, or very local, electrical power sources, i.e. micro nukes or high efficiency solar. All of these technologies are currently under development. It will be interesting to see how it evolves over the next 30+ yrs.
For state of the art as far as Hydrogen EV goes check the link below. Cool local company. Currently gaseous hydrogen powered transitioning to liquid over the next few years.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90837208/the-worlds-largest-zero-emission-truck-is-more-than-two-stories-tall
That’s my point, regarding to promotion of hydrogen in the posts above.
There are production hydrogen cars now. I read an article about them in California where they have to set an alarm and get to the charging station at 4 am to avoid huge backups due to the few number of them and the constant need to repressurize. They also had an explosion in the distribution that shut down a huge number of the stations. You also need special garages to work on them, they need to be equipped to handle depressurizing as well as flushing the system if it needs to be worked on. I think most do it outside from what I read.
I'm not sure I would ever be comfortable parking a full tank of 10,000 psi hydrogen in my garage next to the gas water heater with our bedrooms right above it.
It could have application in the commercial market, I used to drive a propane Pepsi truck. Dual gas/propane, not sure what the point was but it worked fine.
I wouldn't be surprised to see fuel cells take off at some point, but I don't think hydrogen will be the fuel.
Post by: HntnFsh on January 30, 2023, 05:59:22 AM
I also saw an article in the Chronicle awhile back that a company is using the Trans Alta coal mine as a test area for their hydrogen powered off road trucks.
Post by: CP on March 08, 2023, 04:11:16 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on March 08, 2023, 07:05:37 PM
There are plans to put a hydrogen fueling station in, in Centralia in the near future. Mostly for buses though I think.
I also saw an article in the Chronicle awhile back that a company is using the Trans Alta coal mine as a test area for their hydrogen powered off road trucks.
One will be online in 2028 in Ferndale as well.
Post by: 509 on March 08, 2023, 07:54:50 PM
There are plans to put a hydrogen fueling station in, in Centralia in the near future. Mostly for buses though I think.
I also saw an article in the Chronicle awhile back that a company is using the Trans Alta coal mine as a test area for their hydrogen powered off road trucks.
Douglas County will be producing hydrogen this year...date in the article is incorrect.
https://douglaspud.org/douglas-pud-proceeds-with-hydrogen-phase-2/
Not sure if they will have a fueling station for private vehicles.
The bad news is that Douglas County PUD will be selling less electricity to western Washington and Oregon as a result.
Post by: Stein on March 09, 2023, 06:21:48 AM
Interesting.
Many manufacturers are headed this way, vehicle to grid, vehicle to home and vehicle to vehicle. It's simpler to do it through a bi-directional charger as most don't have an onboard inverter of significance. Several are 1-2 years out of production, maybe less. A couple also incorporate existing other energy sources like generators and pv.
Kind of funny how he bashes American truck owners and then buys one but it's ok since it's for his channel. XLT probably wouldn't even work in his case, platinum was needed :chuckle:
Post by: lamrith on March 10, 2023, 08:16:08 PM
Unfortunately his truck had issues and he returned it to the dealer for full refund.Interesting.
Many manufacturers are headed this way, vehicle to grid, vehicle to home and vehicle to vehicle. It's simpler to do it through a bi-directional charger as most don't have an onboard inverter of significance. Several are 1-2 years out of production, maybe less. A couple also incorporate existing other energy sources like generators and pv.
Kind of funny how he bashes American truck owners and then buys one but it's ok since it's for his channel. XLT probably wouldn't even work in his case, platinum was needed :chuckle:
Heard today that while lightning production is still halted, because of a battery fire (rumored) during a preship test at the factory, they also recalled 18 trucks. Sucks to do a recall, but pretty interesting it is only 18 out of the thousands they shipped to this point. Means whatever caused the fire they had in plan is a recent change.