Hunting Washington Forum
Equipment & Gear => Power Equipment & RV => Topic started by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on May 27, 2021, 08:37:38 AM
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Saw a suggestion to discuss this truck on another post, so here it is...
I think we can all agree on what this truck will not be good for...
Long Distance/Heavy load towing (Its a half ton, nobody wants to use a half ton to tow 10k lbs regardless)
Current 3/4 ton and 1 ton drivers
Rural and remote living situations with hard winters (Canada, Alaska, Dakotas, Montana, etc) They are not targeting this market.
Trips into remote areas (more than 150 miles from town)
There might be a few more I cant think of right now, but lets not beat the above mentioned to death.
Based on the information available, I can think of one or two trips I typically take a year with my current truck, that this vehicle would not be suited for (over 150 miles 1 way into very remote/rugged country)
I can do everything else with it I currently do, so maybe it would be a good option once more information and real world tests have been conducted.
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This truck is for the suburbanite that wants a truck to go to the nursery with, or get some dirt/mulch/bark/gravel. Maybe they go to Winthrop or Leavenworth camping once or twice a summer and need to haul their camping gear and a kayak or two on top. Really, this truck works for a lot of the population that need a vehicle that can do a little more dirty work than their Prius. The segment of the population that really NEEDS a truck to go off the grid, or haul/tow heavy loads long distances is quite small. Frankly, I'd own one for exactly what I just mentioned, but then I'd have to own two trucks because I do spend a fair amount of time way off the highways, and I do tow quite a lot.
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I'm just curious why KFhunter posted the following regarding the Lightning:
It would be lunacy to buy an electric vehicle now! The Ford Lighting is going to be a huge flop, outdated before it even hits the floor.
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I think I would definitely use this truck in Sitka if I owned a house up here to charge it at. With only 30-something miles of roads total I have access to and regular fuel prices pushing $3.70/gallon now, it would make sense. While I'd prefer a long bed, as long as I can fit a pallet of fishing gear or fish boxes in the back it makes sense to me.
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If you ask me, this truck will be regionally successful. It's not going to be popular in Montana. It will be popular in lots of western Washington. We've sold every powerboost(hybrid) F150 we've received and we sold them fast. We sell and service tons of hybrids whether they're the traditional hybrids or the plug in hybrids(cars and SUV's and now trucks). I think it'll be a success in certain areas and a flop in others. It's definitely not for everyone. I can tell you for sure that there are crap tons of people asking about them here.
The diesel F150's were a flop here. Not sure about other areas of the country.
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If you ask me, this truck will be regionally successful. It's not going to be popular in Montana. It will be popular in lots of western Washington. We've sold every powerboost(hybrid) F150 we've received and we sold them fast. We sell and service tons of hybrids whether they're the traditional hybrids or the plug in hybrids(cars and SUV's and now trucks). I think it'll be a success in certain areas and a flop in others. It's definitely not for everyone. I can tell you for sure that there are crap tons of people asking about them here.
The diesel F150's were a flop here. Not sure about other areas of the country.
You think its better to wait for them to be on the roads for awhile before getting one? I reserved one, but my 2012 Ecoboost still didn't have all the kinks worked out yet.
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I know that this thread is about the Ford Lightning, but Ford will have a number of competitors when it comes to electric trucks. I've been following Lordstown Motors for quite a while, and even bought stock in the company. They looked very promising, but have had a couple of mis-steps which has put them behind Ford in the race to actually put trucks on the road. Their dismal failure in the Baja San Felipe 250 race sure didn't help.
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It'll be fun trying to explain to Homeowners that we can't install the new Ford 80 amp charge station they just bought.
With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity. Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.
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There's a Rivian dealership going in 4 blocks away from us.
https://rivian.com/
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It'll be fun trying to explain to Homeowners that we can't install the new Ford 80 amp charge station they just bought.
With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity. Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.
Just more work for you to upgrade their panel. My house came with 100A service and one of the first things I did was put a new panel in to support the projects. Houses are basically built to supply the minimum power they need at the time they are built and if you want to add AC, spa or whatever it could be an issue.
That said, there is more room within the 100 or 200 A panel with the energy saving stuff we have today coupled with natural gas.
The charging stations are getting very smart, I expect them to be able to run at whatever capacity is available. More manufacturers are looking at combining the functionality of EV, PV, battery storage as well as traditional stuff like gas backup generators.
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There's a Rivian dealership going in 4 blocks away from us.
https://rivian.com/
Yeah, I've been watching that one, too. Very interesting company, and interesting technology, as well.
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400W solar panels are down to <$300 now. Charging an EV at home without use of the energy grid is getting more economical every year that technology advances. A 5kW system is large enough to charge the Lightning based on typical daily usage and sun availability in the PNW, and a 5kW complete solar power kit costs between $5k-$7K now. Installation will vary based on location, and how much of the install you can do yourself. But with a 20 year warranty, we're talking $300-$500/yr total ammortized....which is less expensive than my annual gasoline costs.....
There are charging stations all over the place, including rural areas that many people have no clue even exist. Parking lot of a remote mountain pass. Tucked into the corner of a Dairy Queen parking lot in a rural eastern town, etc. And more pop up every month. So range to the east side rural areas may be farther than some realize.....
The real question will be Ford's strategy on fast charging network. Tesla spent the time and money to put Supercharger stations everywhere such that you can now drive all over the country with a Model S. Would have been cool to see Ford license the Tesla charging technology and cut a deal to let a Lightning top up at a Supercharger station. Otherwise you're stuck with regular Chargepoint chargers and fast DC chargers....which isn't going to cut it for long distance trips as those are multi-hour recharges compared to a 30 minute charge in a Tesla at a SuperCharger station....I haven't looked closely enough at the Lightning to get a good gauge on the charging strategy. But it'll be awhile before a network of faster charging stations is built out. I'm friends with the VP of Engineering at Chargepoint, and they're moving quickly to install the next gen fast chargers....but it's going to take time to get them all out.
I leased a Ford Focus electric from 2014 to 2016 as my commuter vehicle. That was a fun little car, and the lease deals they were running back then made it a no-brainer....I put the miles on the Focus electric instead of my Tundra. Ford did a really good job with the development on that EV in terms of user interface, etc. I really liked it. You learn where all the charging stations are, and eventually get over the range anxiety. Having a 300 mile range of a Tesla or a Ford Lightning (the upgraded model) is a game changer from the 7 year older technology I was driving.
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There’s a Tesla charging station in Newhalem on HWY 20.😉
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The real question will be Ford's strategy on fast charging network. Tesla spent the time and money to put Supercharger stations everywhere such that you can now drive all over the country with a Model S. Would have been cool to see Ford license the Tesla charging technology and cut a deal to let a Lightning top up at a Supercharger station. Otherwise you're stuck with regular Chargepoint chargers and fast DC chargers....which isn't going to cut it for long distance trips as those are multi-hour recharges compared to a 30 minute charge in a Tesla at a SuperCharger station....I haven't looked closely enough at the Lightning to get a good gauge on the charging strategy. But it'll be awhile before a network of faster charging stations is built out. I'm friends with the VP of Engineering at Chargepoint, and they're moving quickly to install the next gen fast chargers....but it's going to take time to get them all out.
I do not understand this either. Why didn't they standardize the charging stations? Seems like a no brainer to me.
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It'll be fun trying to explain to Homeowners that we can't install the new Ford 80 amp charge station they just bought.
With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity. Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.
Just more work for you to upgrade their panel. My house came with 100A service and one of the first things I did was put a new panel in to support the projects. Houses are basically built to supply the minimum power they need at the time they are built and if you want to add AC, spa or whatever it could be an issue.
That said, there is more room within the 100 or 200 A panel with the energy saving stuff we have today coupled with natural gas.
The charging stations are getting very smart, I expect them to be able to run at whatever capacity is available. More manufacturers are looking at combining the functionality of EV, PV, battery storage as well as traditional stuff like gas backup generators.
This is the issue. As NG (and LP) become phased out (Seattle, Bellingham, etc.) we are forced to go to Heat Pumps for DHW and Heating (and soon clothes drying). Although low-load tech is available thru VRV, it is still expensive to install. So to meet code, we are seeing high demand systems.
We are see the majority of these issues in multi family and Condo situations. MF and Condos are notorious for Electric Resistive heat and DHH coupled with 100 amp panels.
(Not sure why, but we install a TON of EV chargers in Condos)
Older buildings are the biggest concern. EV stations and old parking garages don't mesh well together. HOA's don't like to hear their service won't support them without major, costly upgrades.
High LR ratings are an issue as well, but that isn't an EV charging issue, more of a "we didn't think of that when we wrote the code" issue. It's become VRV or nothing for older communities and some more remote areas.
I hope sales lots will educate buyers on the issues they may face before purchasing. Most can be easily overcome, but at an expense.
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I do not understand this either. Why didn't they standardize the charging stations? Seems like a no brainer to me.
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There are standards for charging stations. Those standards are just currently slower than a Tesla proprietary charging system. The next gen charging standards are getting closer to the speed of a Tesla charger, but still not quite as fast....and all those charging companies now have to go update their charging stations to the next faster standard. Tesla offered to license their charging IP to anybody that wanted it....but nobody really took them up on the offer. I think the challenge is it's pointless if Tesla also didn't offer a reasonable cost option to use their SuperCharger stations to other car manufacturers (I don't know what Tesla was offering in that license). Tesla has already been caught by multiple competitors now in terms of the EV car technology itself: range, features, etc.. Tesla's strength is in their fast chargers and their extensive nationwide supercharging network.
2022 is a big year for rollouts of competitive EV solutions, with multiple companies now offering Tesla's range.
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EV manufacturers want to sell their proprietary connectors and chargers. There are standards and it's possible, but there will always be companies that choose a Lightning connector over a micro USB for example.
They can also sell you the adapter cable so you can charge at other EV charging sites.
I think once EV charging becomes commercially viable you will see a big push for more compatibility.
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It'll be fun trying to explain to Homeowners that we can't install the new Ford 80 amp charge station they just bought.
With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity. Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.
Interesting point. I'd assume new homes, at least higher end homes, are being wired with this in mind?
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It'll be fun trying to explain to Homeowners that we can't install the new Ford 80 amp charge station they just bought.
With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity. Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.
Interesting point. I'd assume new homes, at least higher end homes, are being wired with this in mind?
Not really. It's an added cost for the panel, conductors to the transformer and transformer, so I would be surprised to see a house "EV ready". It might be more of a thing in the future, but I don't think people are even aware of it right now so no builder is going to incur the cost.
When I upgraded, it wasn't a huge deal but I have a transformer in my front yard and underground to the panel. The new panel was maybe $200, another $150 for service conductors, throw in $200 for AFCI/GFCI breakers and a half day to pull it all together. Permit was $110 if I remember right and the power company didn't charge to come make the new connection at the transformer. Took them all of 15 minutes.
The question is how many homes can upgrade before the utility needs a new transformer? Even then, if they know they can sell the power, they will bring in the conductors, EVs are a dream come true for the utility that has faced decades of pressure to sell less power and more energy efficient loads.
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It'll be fun trying to explain to Homeowners that we can't install the new Ford 80 amp charge station they just bought.
With all the new Energy Code requirements, most residential services are already close to capacity. Adding 80 amps, even de-rated, is going to be an issue.
Interesting point. I'd assume new homes, at least higher end homes, are being wired with this in mind?
Not really. It's an added cost for the panel, conductors to the transformer and transformer, so I would be surprised to see a house "EV ready". It might be more of a thing in the future, but I don't think people are even aware of it right now so no builder is going to incur the cost.
When I upgraded, it wasn't a huge deal but I have a transformer in my front yard and underground to the panel. The new panel was maybe $200, another $150 for service conductors, throw in $200 for AFCI/GFCI breakers and a half day to pull it all together. Permit was $110 if I remember right and the power company didn't charge to come make the new connection at the transformer. Took them all of 15 minutes.
The question is how many homes can upgrade before the utility needs a new transformer? Even then, if they know they can sell the power, they will bring in the conductors, EVs are a dream come true for the utility that has faced decades of pressure to sell less power and more energy efficient loads.
:yeah:
We aren't seeing builders want to add EV options. Solar communities seam to be the cool new thing.
I see EV stations optioning an Energy Credit in the near future. Maybe 1/2 a point. That'll get builders to start adding them in.
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Multiple car companies will have 300 mile range vehicles shipping in 2022. Tesla has their supercharger network, with the latest V3 update allowing for 1000 miles of range replenishment per hour. The standard DC fast chargers (fastest current standard option) currently deployed can do 178 miles range replenishment per hour. So stopping to top up a Tesla at a V3 supercharger for 250 miles is 15 minutes, compared to 1 hour 24 minutes on a DC fast charger. The new DC fast charger standard can do up to 500-800 miles range per hour replenishment (depending on implementation).....cutting that charge time for 250 miles of range replenishment down to 18-30 minutes.....so once those latest standard chargers get deployed then all the other car companies can at least get close to Tesla in terms of charge time.
The challenge is the standard chargers are all deployed and managed by third party companies like Chargepoint, Blink, etc. I'm curious to see if the big auto companies like Ford, GM, etc. start buying up the charging companies or deploying their own versions. Tesla spent years and a pile of money deploying their 25,000+ superchargers along most major highways. Will be interesting to watch the next few years play out.....as having a 300 mile range car that you have to stop for an hour and a half to charge while on a trip is not a feasible plan.
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The real question will be Ford's strategy on fast charging network. Tesla spent the time and money to put Supercharger stations everywhere such that you can now drive all over the country with a Model S. Would have been cool to see Ford license the Tesla charging technology and cut a deal to let a Lightning top up at a Supercharger station. Otherwise you're stuck with regular Chargepoint chargers and fast DC chargers....which isn't going to cut it for long distance trips as those are multi-hour recharges compared to a 30 minute charge in a Tesla at a SuperCharger station....I haven't looked closely enough at the Lightning to get a good gauge on the charging strategy. But it'll be awhile before a network of faster charging stations is built out. I'm friends with the VP of Engineering at Chargepoint, and they're moving quickly to install the next gen fast chargers....but it's going to take time to get them all out.
I do not understand this either. Why didn't they standardize the charging stations? Seems like a no brainer to me.
It took legislative action to get standardized cell phone chargers.
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The real question will be Ford's strategy on fast charging network. Tesla spent the time and money to put Supercharger stations everywhere such that you can now drive all over the country with a Model S. Would have been cool to see Ford license the Tesla charging technology and cut a deal to let a Lightning top up at a Supercharger station. Otherwise you're stuck with regular Chargepoint chargers and fast DC chargers....which isn't going to cut it for long distance trips as those are multi-hour recharges compared to a 30 minute charge in a Tesla at a SuperCharger station....I haven't looked closely enough at the Lightning to get a good gauge on the charging strategy. But it'll be awhile before a network of faster charging stations is built out. I'm friends with the VP of Engineering at Chargepoint, and they're moving quickly to install the next gen fast chargers....but it's going to take time to get them all out.
I do not understand this either. Why didn't they standardize the charging stations? Seems like a no brainer to me.
It took legislative action to get standardized cell phone chargers.
Did I miss your explanation on why the Ford Lightning is destined to be a "flop" ?
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No, I just haven't answered you yet.
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No, I just haven't answered you yet.
OK, thanks. It just seems to me that Ford is on the right track (or is it right truck), and I find all of these discussions interesting, and educating. I need all the help I can get.
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Multiple car companies will have 300 mile range vehicles shipping in 2022. Tesla has their supercharger network, with the latest V3 update allowing for 1000 miles of range replenishment per hour. The standard DC fast chargers (fastest current standard option) currently deployed can do 178 miles range replenishment per hour. So stopping to top up a Tesla at a V3 supercharger for 250 miles is 15 minutes, compared to 1 hour 24 minutes on a DC fast charger. The new DC fast charger standard can do up to 500-800 miles range per hour replenishment (depending on implementation).....cutting that charge time for 250 miles of range replenishment down to 18-30 minutes.....so once those latest standard chargers get deployed then all the other car companies can at least get close to Tesla in terms of charge time.
The challenge is the standard chargers are all deployed and managed by third party companies like Chargepoint, Blink, etc. I'm curious to see if the big auto companies like Ford, GM, etc. start buying up the charging companies or deploying their own versions. Tesla spent years and a pile of money deploying their 25,000+ superchargers along most major highways. Will be interesting to watch the next few years play out.....as having a 300 mile range car that you have to stop for an hour and a half to charge while on a trip is not a feasible plan.
That's what kept us from picking up a Tesla, it would be a 3-4 stopper to get to my family in MT and one of the stops was 45 minutes. I one stop it in the truck, I would be willing to do 2, but 3 or more is just too much. It would be great around town, but not good on road trips, so it wasn't worth it.
I think in a year or two that will have changed and we'll probably pick one up when you can get one for $35k that can two stop it to MT.
An EV and a gas truck would be the perfect combination for our family to do anything we want.
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I'm also looking at it through my lens living rural and working my trucks.
Jackelope has a good point about regional success, it'll be a good grocery getter.
The truck has a pretty limited range, and after so many charges and discharges, it'll degrade to 80% and that is considered to be within specs, so you 300 mile range with the optinal extended range pack, is now 240, but degrading even still.
Turn on the heater, drive hills, snow or slush, add any weight, or *gasp* dare to add bigger mud tires..... and the range will be nearly unusable for anything but around town.
Now discuss chargers, can't use Tesla, most owners will be limited to a 120v wall outlet that keeps popping a cgfi
I see a nightmare, Tesla had a certian stigma, people knew they were getting a Tesla and mentally accepted the limitations...
This is a Ford truck.
The masses will seriously consider it, buy it without that stigma of "Tesla" then run into all tbe issues and pain of ownership
It's going to flop, go on the used market for a huge depreciation hit, then flop again on the used market too.
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I'm also looking at it through my lens living rural and working my trucks.
Jackelope has a good point about regional success, it'll be a good grocery getter.
The truck has a pretty limited range, and after so many charges and discharges, it'll degrade to 80% and that is considered to be within specs, so you 300 mile range with the optinal extended range pack, is now 240, but degrading even still.
Turn on the heater, drive hills, snow or slush, add any weight, or *gasp* dare to add bigger mud tires..... and the range will be nearly unusable for anything but around town.
Now discuss chargers, can't use Tesla, most owners will be limited to a 120v wall outlet that keeps popping a cgfi
I see a nightmare, Tesla had a certian stigma, people knew they were getting a Tesla and mentally accepted the limitations...
This is a Ford truck.
The masses will seriously consider it, buy it without that stigma of "Tesla" then run into all tbe issues and pain of ownership
It's going to flop, go on the used market for a huge depreciation hit, then flop again on the used market too.
What you are saying is largely true, but how many F-150's are just driven around town for 99.9% of their lives? Probably a very sizeable chunk. There are also probably minivan and SUV guys that will be swayed into a truck.
It will sell for sure. Let's face it, the people that pull a 6,000 pound trailer up into the mountains for two weeks is not a significant portion of the truck market. That's why Ford isn't going the GM all electric route. Sell EVs to people that they fit and sell gas and diesel to the others. Everyone is happy.
I bought my truck from the original owner that sold it because it was too big and he was afraid to switch it into 4WD. I think that is much more common than many think.
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There's still the charging hurdles and lack of infrastructure, and the stigma of Ford vs Tesla.
I really think that stigma will play a big role in the demise of the lightning.
With the Tesla it was: "I'll make this work" and Tesla owners got to be all cool and trendy.
With Ford it'll be like: "this isn't working!" and get all mad and sell it.
If Ford is smart they'll really vet the potential buyers to make sure the vehicles are going to homes with the means to install a charger and the owners aren't just plunking cash on a vogue product not knowing what they're getting into and the modifications required.
I also think there's going to be a new administration that will end a great deal of these incentives to go all electric and "end big oil"
I could even see an environmental push to "stop the strip mines!" raping the earth of precious metals.
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We'll see. My money is on people buying them, driving it 15 miles to work, 15 miles back, plugging it in overnight and thinking it's awesome. You can charge them anywhere you have a 15A receptacle, it's just a question of time. No different than any other EV.
Another benefit is to knock the 3.5L guys down a rung, they are getting pretty smug with that acceleration and torque.
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81% of the US population lives in 3% of the US land mass, the cities and towns. For those people the Lightning has plenty of range for their typical everyday use. Is the Lightning suitable for towing a 30,000lb trailer 2000 miles across the US? Nope (if it were a Tesla, then "yes" because the Superchargers eliminate range issues). Is the Lightning suitable for typical usage of 80% of the US population? Yep.
A 120v Level 1 wall charger can only charge 8-10 miles per hour....nobody is seriously going to try to charge a 300 mile range EV with one of those as their permanent home charging solution.....
The "Pro" edition of the Lightning for contractors looks interesting, as you no longer have to lug a generator along to job sites.
I live on the east side of the cascades in Oregon. My favorite local hunting and fishing spots are <30 miles away from my house, so no range anxiety in towing my boat with a Lightning or hunting....I'm not a road hunter so 250-300 miles range is more than enough....and I've had an EV before so am familiar with how running the heater/etc affect range. My favorite spots to the north and west are within range of a Lightning, and there are many many charging stations between me and them. The only time I'd get range anxiety is if I draw one of the coveted eastern tags where I'm driving to the remote southeastern corner....then again those places are 100 miles from a gas station too....so that stuff is really remote. And those tags take decades to draw, so no risk of range issues anytime soon. :-) But for those hunts I'd take the Tundra and my 20gallons of jerry cans on the truck canopy.
If somebody is towing a 30,000lb trailer uphill both ways in 20ft of snow for 2000 miles each way, then sure an EV truck will never be acceptable. :-) In all seriousness, EV trucks won't be for everybody. But we're kidding ourselves if we try to deny the fact that EV SUV and Trucks are going to sell millions of vehicles in the coming decades.
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There are a bunch of people that could and do use the 120V, 15 A cord to charge almost exclusively. Even at 8-10 miles per hour of charge, if you use it to commute, get home at 6 pm and leave the next day at 7 am you get 100-130 miles of charge overnight which is more than enough for the vast majority of commutes even if you throw in a few trips to the grocery store during the week.
EVs sit in the garage for a long time, they can pencil out for commuting even if you don't install a charger at home and don't have one at work. I would be interested to know what percent of Tesla owners don't buy a charger.
I know a guy working on a project for a Fortune 500 company that is buying commercial EV trucks. Big chargers, big trucks, big loads, big mileage capacity. We'll see how well they work but it's happening faster than most realize. Gas cost going up, electricity cost going down before you even talk about maintenance.
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There are a bunch of people that could and do use the 120V, 15 A cord to charge almost exclusively. Even at 8-10 miles per hour of charge, if you use it to commute, get home at 6 pm and leave the next day at 7 am you get 100-130 miles of charge overnight which is more than enough for the vast majority of commutes even if you throw in a few trips to the grocery store during the week.
EVs sit in the garage for a long time, they can pencil out for commuting even if you don't install a charger at home and don't have one at work. I would be interested to know what percent of Tesla owners don't buy a charger.
I know a guy working on a project for a Fortune 500 company that is buying commercial EV trucks. Big chargers, big trucks, big loads, big mileage capacity. We'll see how well they work but it's happening faster than most realize. Gas cost going up, electricity cost going down before you even talk about maintenance.
Yep, when I had the Ford Focus Electric I used the 120V Level 1 charger too. The problem is if you come back home late at night, you won't be topped up in time for your morning commute. Which was a problem with a 84 mile range (65 in winter) EV....not as much with a 300 mile range EV. But I had a few mornings when couldn't take the Focus to work because it wouldn't make it there and back on a charge, and I didn't have time to stop at a charging station that day.
The challenge when using a 120v charger with a 300 mile range vehicle is if you go on a trip and come back with only 50 miles range left on that Tesla or Lightning....it's going to take 3 days to recharge that thing.....
The wife will be upgrading her Volvo to an EV SUV in the near future, and will definitely be installing a Level 2 charger at home for that.
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One of the first EV's, and its super charger. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210528/8bcee1757d99de26832e59c055d32d83.jpg)
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Also think of how many F150's are fleet trucks used to haul light loads of gear from spot to spot around town or are city municipal trucks for hauling grass clippings etc. Tesla's were a clean sheet design from a brand new company. The F150 out sells every other vehicle. I am unaware of specifics of the remote charging game but I imagine the open market will meet the demand for efficient charging stations when millions of these vehicles are bought by government agencies not to mention the millions of grocery getters.
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This post got quiet. Seems reservations topped 100K shortly after the last post in this thread, and then last month topped 120K. Has anyone else put a reservation on for one?
EV in general has really skyrocketed in availability, affordability and range the last year or two. Electrify America is opening more and more stations. Last week Tesla released they will open their network to other EV's this year. I also heard they are changing their plug setup.
Based on the research I have done about the Mach-E (figure ford will use similar tech/concepts), Ford has really done their research with EV tech and putting together a good package. Unlike Tesla they are not playing the typical "max possible EPA rating" game. They are understating EPC mileage estimates and those reporting on range as saying they are getting longer range than EPA estimates.
Early reviews from people that have been hands on with the lightning it looks like a real winner. Some nice features for camping or being away from where there are powerlines, good range (with some posters showing LCD's showing what could possibly be much higher actual range).
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400W solar panels are down to <$300 now. Charging an EV at home without use of the energy grid is getting more economical every year that technology advances. A 5kW system is large enough to charge the Lightning based on typical daily usage and sun availability in the PNW, and a 5kW complete solar power kit costs between $5k-$7K now. Installation will vary based on location, and how much of the install you can do yourself. But with a 20 year warranty, we're talking $300-$500/yr total ammortized....which is less expensive than my annual gasoline costs.....
There are charging stations all over the place, including rural areas that many people have no clue even exist. Parking lot of a remote mountain pass. Tucked into the corner of a Dairy Queen parking lot in a rural eastern town, etc. And more pop up every month. So range to the east side rural areas may be farther than some realize.....
The real question will be Ford's strategy on fast charging network. Tesla spent the time and money to put Supercharger stations everywhere such that you can now drive all over the country with a Model S. Would have been cool to see Ford license the Tesla charging technology and cut a deal to let a Lightning top up at a Supercharger station. Otherwise you're stuck with regular Chargepoint chargers and fast DC chargers....which isn't going to cut it for long distance trips as those are multi-hour recharges compared to a 30 minute charge in a Tesla at a SuperCharger station....I haven't looked closely enough at the Lightning to get a good gauge on the charging strategy. But it'll be awhile before a network of faster charging stations is built out. I'm friends with the VP of Engineering at Chargepoint, and they're moving quickly to install the next gen fast chargers....but it's going to take time to get them all out.
I leased a Ford Focus electric from 2014 to 2016 as my commuter vehicle. That was a fun little car, and the lease deals they were running back then made it a no-brainer....I put the miles on the Focus electric instead of my Tundra. Ford did a really good job with the development on that EV in terms of user interface, etc. I really liked it. You learn where all the charging stations are, and eventually get over the range anxiety. Having a 300 mile range of a Tesla or a Ford Lightning (the upgraded model) is a game changer from the 7 year older technology I was driving.
I just did a calculation on my typical daily routine for a year.
My daily driven car gats 17-18mpg. Using the somewhat accepted EV standard 3.0mi/Kwh and my current elect Co rates I would save $2400 a year on fuel alone, plus maintenance. That would pay the solar system off right quick!
For charging ford teamed up with Electrify America and maybe others. When all this started I do not think Tesla was willing to share, but more on that later. EA has a really big network already and some stations are faster than tesla, EA has 350Kwh rolling out all over. But most EV's are not designed to take advantage of those max power stations. Porsche Taycan being one of the few to run over 150 that I know of? But the point is that there are thousands of stations to charge at and I think technically more than tesla from a sheer number standpoint, and the speeds are getting much faster every month. Mach-E is 150Kwh from 20-80%. One thing I saw on the lightning has said 10-80% charge in under 40min and that max rate was 150Kwh.
Best part though is Tesla has announced they will be opening their network to other EV's this year. I think the sheer number of offerings for EV's that rival Tesla's range has caused them to re-evaluate their position and realize it is in their best interest to start levering their great network to become a real revenue generating source.
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I just did a calculation on my typical daily routine for a year.
My daily driven car gats 17-18mpg. Using the somewhat accepted EV standard 3.0mi/Kwh and my current elect Co rates I would save $2400 a year on fuel alone, plus maintenance. That would pay the solar system off right quick!
For charging ford teamed up with Electrify America and maybe others. When all this started I do not think Tesla was willing to share, but more on that later. EA has a really big network already and some stations are faster than tesla, EA has 350Kwh rolling out all over. But most EV's are not designed to take advantage of those max power stations. Porsche Taycan being one of the few to run over 150 that I know of? But the point is that there are thousands of stations to charge at and I think technically more than tesla from a sheer number standpoint, and the speeds are getting much faster every month. Mach-E is 150Kwh from 20-80%. One thing I saw on the lightning has said 10-80% charge in under 40min and that max rate was 150Kwh.
Best part though is Tesla has announced they will be opening their network to other EV's this year. I think the sheer number of offerings for EV's that rival Tesla's range has caused them to re-evaluate their position and realize it is in their best interest to start levering their great network to become a real revenue generating source.
The Mach-E battery size is 75.7 kWh and it charges at 150kW? 2C? What kind of battery life can they get charging at 2C?
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Almost done with this ridiculously long garage expansion remodel (signed papers with contractor a year ago next week.....drywall goes in tomorrow....still no clue when we'll finish). Kicking myself on the electrical decision. Garage is detached and previous homeowners were notorious code violators so instead of messing with the power line they buried from house to garage our electrician tapped into the spare capacity at the power pole.....as part of the garage expansion re-wire I had him wire in for a 240V NEMA 14-50 outlet so can use an EV charger in one of the new garage bays..... as most home EV charging stations are 50A and I'm tentatively planning on the ChargePoint Flex charging station.
Just looked at the Ford Wall Charger specs for the Lightning.....Darn it!!! 80A charger. Don't have enough left in the electrical panel (nor did I pull heavy enough gauge wire for 80A). Was trying to convince the wife to get the Lightning for her next vehicle (she's replacing her Volvo with an EV SUV in the next few years).....because I'd liked the backup home power option you get with that....and I planned on "borrowing" it most of the time....but no bueno. That backup power function won't work without Ford's Wall Charger. Oh well. But that 80A is also how Ford is able to state the fast charging stats (projection).
Knowing the wife she'll probably go with the XC90 EV that's coming out in two years to replace her existing XC90 (XC40 EV is out now but she likes the roomier XC90s). Although a Tesla S is probably also still in play for her decision.
It's nice Tesla finally played nice with others by opening up the Supercharger network now. Curious how much they'll charge for it to non-Tesla's. Of the nationwide charging stations, Tesla has over 50% of them. The downside is no other car is designed to handle Tesla's Gen3 speeds of charging rates on those things so they'll throttle to normal Level 2 charge rates. Tesla will still maintain that advantage on charge rate until the new charging standard comes out next year......
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I just did a calculation on my typical daily routine for a year.
My daily driven car gats 17-18mpg. Using the somewhat accepted EV standard 3.0mi/Kwh and my current elect Co rates I would save $2400 a year on fuel alone, plus maintenance. That would pay the solar system off right quick!
For charging ford teamed up with Electrify America and maybe others. When all this started I do not think Tesla was willing to share, but more on that later. EA has a really big network already and some stations are faster than tesla, EA has 350Kwh rolling out all over. But most EV's are not designed to take advantage of those max power stations. Porsche Taycan being one of the few to run over 150 that I know of? But the point is that there are thousands of stations to charge at and I think technically more than tesla from a sheer number standpoint, and the speeds are getting much faster every month. Mach-E is 150Kwh from 20-80%. One thing I saw on the lightning has said 10-80% charge in under 40min and that max rate was 150Kwh.
Best part though is Tesla has announced they will be opening their network to other EV's this year. I think the sheer number of offerings for EV's that rival Tesla's range has caused them to re-evaluate their position and realize it is in their best interest to start levering their great network to become a real revenue generating source.
The Mach-E battery size is 75.7 kWh and it charges at 150kW? 2C? What kind of battery life can they get charging at 2C?
Not sure mach-e batt size, pretty sure one is 90? I have seen vids of then going 125kw+ while under 70%.
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I have heard a few mention this limitation on house panel and hooking up 80a?
Not sure I follow, are you folks talking literal spaces in panel to add a circuit or something else? I have space in both my main house panel (200A service from road) and subpanel in garage (100A feed from house main panel)
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I have heard a few mention this limitation on house panel and hooking up 80a?
Not sure I follow, are you folks talking literal spaces in panel to add a circuit or something else? I have space in both my main house panel (200A service from road) and subpanel in garage (100A feed from house main panel)
1) You have to run the proper gauge wire from your electrical panel in order to support an 80A charger. The gauge of wire that I had pulled to support a 50A charger won't safely support an 80A charger. Have to pull thicker gauge wire for 80A.
2) I can't speak for others regarding physical space for breakers in their electrical panel although I do know that happens and people have to upgrade panels, but in my case I'm running multiple 240V systems and other higher amperage drawing devices off that garage panel along with other items. Sure I could look at terminating something to free up the extra amps....but not worth it now. Electrical part of the project is finished.
Since the wife hasn't decided on an EV yet, I chose to keep my decision as generic as possible with the 50A NEMA 14-50 outlet decision. That approach let's me use a ChargePoint Flex or other types of Level 2 smart chargers or a mobile charger that plugs into a 240V outlet. Wasn't planning on a Tesla wall charger (those are 60A for Gen3) as those are specific to Tesla and I don't know which EV wife will choose. But it was cheaper/easier to run the wiring and plan the panel now while the garage is being built so opted to put the 240V outlet in now.
The other nice thing of sticking with the standard NEMA 14-50 outlet approach is that is the same connector used for RV shore power, some welders, some appliances, etc. So gives more flexibility than just choosing a hardwired option.
I just wasn't expecting Ford to jump up to an 80A charger. That's higher than even a Tesla Gen3. You can still plug a Lightning, or any EV, into a NEMA 14-50 based Level 2 EV charger. It's just Ford is counting on that 80A circuit for when you're using the "backup home power" mode as power is flowing from the Lightning to power your house in a power outage for up to 3 days..... cool feature.
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I have heard a few mention this limitation on house panel and hooking up 80a?
Not sure I follow, are you folks talking literal spaces in panel to add a circuit or something else? I have space in both my main house panel (200A service from road) and subpanel in garage (100A feed from house main panel)
1) You have to run the proper gauge wire from your electrical panel in order to support an 80A charger. The gauge of wire that I had pulled to support a 50A charger won't safely support an 80A charger. Have to pull thicker gauge wire for 80A.
2) I can't speak for others regarding physical space for breakers in their electrical panel although I do know that happens and people have to upgrade panels, but in my case I'm running multiple 240V systems and other higher amperage drawing devices off that garage panel along with other items. Sure I could look at terminating something to free up the extra amps....but not worth it now. Electrical part of the project is finished.
Since the wife hasn't decided on an EV yet, I chose to keep my decision as generic as possible with the 50A NEMA 14-50 outlet decision. That approach let's me use a ChargePoint Flex or other types of smart chargers that plug into a 240V outlet. Wasn't planning on a Tesla wall charger (those are 60A for Gen3) as those are specific to Tesla and I don't know which EV wife will choose. But it was cheaper/easier to run the wiring and plan the panel now while the garage is being built so opted to put the 240V outlet in now.
The other nice thing of sticking with the standard NEMA 14-50 outlet approach is that is the same connector used for RV shore power, some welders, some appliances, etc. So gives more flexibility than just choosing a hardwired option.
I just wasn't expecting Ford to jump up to an 80A charger. That's higher than even a Tesla Gen3. You can still plug a Lightning, or any EV, into a NEMA 14-50 based EV charger. It's just Ford is counting on that 80A circuit for when you're using the "backup home power" mode as power is flowing from the Lightning to power your house in a power outage for up to 3 days..... cool feature.
Thanks for filling in some info. I was getting concerned after reading a post early in this thread about energy code issues.
Thankfully my home is 200A and the run to garage is 100A so I should be able to put the charger at either location.
Wire is not cheap, but in the grand scheme of things it is not that expensive either. Hopefully yours was run in conduit? If so honestly you should be able to pull a new run with heavier gauge wire? Now would be the time while it is still fresh construction, walls open and maybe electricians are still around?
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Nah, I'm not enamored enough with the Lightning to swap out the garage wires now.....haven't seen the final bill but pretty sure the wire cost more than the new panel did. I like the Lightning but now that the EV options are about to quadruple in the next 6-12 months and much more so in the next 3 years.....
Dodge and GM both have 400-500 mile range 1500 series trucks in development coming albeit later to market than Ford....I am a Ford guy but man that extra range is appealing enough to wait. Plus again the wife will probably buy an SUV anyway. The 400 mile range Rivian R1S is pretty cool, although I get nervous trusting which one of the new US startups (Canoo, Rivian, Bollinger, etc.) will make it long term in the EV market. That new Hummer EV looks pretty cool with 350 mile range....not sure I can go for that Jeep Wrangler EV (Magneto), not enough range for that type of vehicle. Audi/Porsche, BMW, Cadillac, and Mercedes already have their EV fleet in the market now going against Tesla. Volvo EVs hit the US next year. Ford has multiple models on the road now with the rest of their EV fleet coming soon. Toyota and Nissan have their SUV EVs here now and next year, and Subaru's is coming next year. Then the Chinese brands will invade (they outsell Tesla now across the lot of them). Prices are going to drop with the huge increase in competition over the next 4 years. The big brands will survive like they always do.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g29994375/future-electric-cars-trucks/
A 50 amp circuit is fine for all of those for now, except the Lightning. Or that unique Tesla wall charger (60A circuit).
So can't really justify that 80 amp change unless the wife really loved the Lightning....but I'm more interested in it than she is. And she now has lots of alternative options coming soon.
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Nah, I'm not enamored enough with the Lightning to swap out the garage wires now.....haven't seen the final bill but pretty sure the wire cost more than the new panel did. I like the Lightning but now that the EV options are about to quadruple in the next 6-12 months and much more so in the next 3 years.....
Dodge and GM both have 400-500 mile range 1500 series trucks in development coming albeit later to market than Ford....I am a Ford guy but man that extra range is appealing enough to wait. Plus again the wife will probably buy an SUV anyway. The 400 mile range Rivian R1S is pretty cool, although I get nervous trusting which one of the new US startups (Canoo, Rivian, Bollinger, etc.) will make it long term in the EV market. That new Hummer EV looks pretty cool with 350 mile range....not sure I can go for that Jeep Wrangler EV (Magneto), not enough range for that type of vehicle. Audi/Porsche, BMW, Cadillac, and Mercedes already have their EV fleet in the market now going against Tesla. Volvo EVs hit the US next year. Ford has multiple models on the road now with the rest of their EV fleet coming soon. Toyota and Nissan have their SUV EVs here now and next year, and Subaru's is coming next year. Then the Chinese brands will invade (they outsell Tesla now across the lot of them). Prices are going to drop with the huge increase in competition over the next 4 years. The big brands will survive like they always do.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g29994375/future-electric-cars-trucks/
A 50 amp circuit is fine for all of those for now, except the Lightning. Or that unique Tesla wall charger (60A circuit).
So can't really justify that 80 amp change unless the wife really loved the Lightning....but I'm more interested in it than she is. And she now has lots of alternative options coming soon.
Yeah that makes sense and we are sort of off on a tangent, and late in the game for you, but worth mentioning for anyone else considering EV and wiring a garage. I went 100A, just can't have too much power when projects need done. And if done initially, the cost difference is not that bad, or at least was not pre Covid when I did mine. Glad I did to as we later installed a mini split hvac unit so we can use it in dead of winter or heat of summer. If you have plans to install heat/cooling down the road many of them are in the 60a range, just fyi. Plus I doubt ford will be the only one over 50A long term.
As for the competition, I am not fully believing many of those super long range claims. Easy to claim, harder to prove. I just find it suspect that they all have some magic batteries/tech that is soo much better than ford which is already a jump forward in terms of range for a vehicle this size..? I bet they are playing the same epa ratings games as they do for the ICE vehicles and Tesla on their cars does which users in real life to not see. Ford with Mach-e on the other hand always exceeds epa estimates.. They are doing same for lightning, keeping claims ultra conservative from what those into EV are saying based on info ford has released. Recent images and videos have shown ford lcd showing 479mi range. I agree with concern on longevity on the new upstarts, not willing to roll the dice personally. I mean Tesla has (thus far) pulled it off, but I have heard stories over the years that they lost millions, not many companies can survive that sort of thing. If Money was no object I would jump at a Taycan as primary daily driver, speed and range and well it's a porsche, they have a feel and ride to them that is second to none..
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Stumbled on a road tour going around the country. Mind you this is specifically targeted to the fleet side of things, and looks to be only the Pro model and the E-transit van. They have one event scheduled here in "seattle" Sept 17th at wildwaves in FedWay. I went ahead and signed up for the 12:45 event. Be nice to at least see one of these things up close before commit.
https://forddrivetour.com/EV/
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Looks like Senate republicans are trying to torpedo the success and adoption of EV.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/on-small-business/senate-backs-limiting-ev-tax-credits-congress-update/2021/08/10/46697b00-fa47-11eb-911c-524bc8b68f17_story.html
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Republican Senator Deb Fischer of Nebraska proposed prohibiting people making more than $100,000 a year from claiming EV tax credits and to end tax credits for EVs that cost more than $40,000 -
Is there an EV that is less than 40k?
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Chevy Bolt $31K MSRP
I am sure there are more. I just know this because a coworker has one.
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Looks like Senate republicans are trying to torpedo the success and adoption of EV.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/on-small-business/senate-backs-limiting-ev-tax-credits-congress-update/2021/08/10/46697b00-fa47-11eb-911c-524bc8b68f17_story.html
If you want to buy an electric vehicle, great! You don't need a tax credit for doing it :dunno:
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Republican Senator Deb Fischer of Nebraska proposed prohibiting people making more than $100,000 a year from claiming EV tax credits and to end tax credits for EVs that cost more than $40,000 -
Is there an EV that is less than 40k?
There are a few more I think like 5-6 total? All very small econoboxes.
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Wow, a lot of that sounds pretty impressive! I guess my biggest concern is the 300 mile range limitation. Could a person carry spare batteries?
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Wow, a lot of that sounds pretty impressive! I guess my biggest concern is the 300 mile range limitation. Could a person carry spare batteries?
Duh, it's a truck. The generator goes in the back.
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Ugh, it looks like its only going to have a 5.5ft bed. That's disappointing.
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Wow, a lot of that sounds pretty impressive! I guess my biggest concern is the 300 mile range limitation. Could a person carry spare batteries?
Couple things of note...
Based on calculations with info Ford HAS released (they will not state battery size) the 300mi is thought to be conservative. Rumor has it, that testing was done with 1000# payload in the truck. My rough numbers based on released info put it at around 450mi, for max range. But typical EV they say only run 70-80% usage then charge to 80%. That would put it around 350mi range. Some industry estimates are over 400mi, based on screenshots of LCD screens in demo trucks. It seems they are not playing the usual higher than real world EPA estimates common in ICE vehicles and done by Tesla. The Mach-E for example I am hearing is exceeding EPA estimates for range. Time will tell what the truth is.
Ford Does have a patent now for a charging setup with generator "packaged so that it could fit in the bed of a truck like a toolbox"...
I doubt spare batteries would be practical, the sheer weight would likely really kill range.
Where did you see that multi page spread? Very cool.
Ugh, it looks like its only going to have a 5.5ft bed. That's disappointing.
Yes it is the shortbed and only one vehicle/chassis configuration being the full 4 door, short bed variant. No std cab or extended cab options.
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Ugh, it looks like its only going to have a 5.5ft bed. That's disappointing.
Keeps the weight down I'm sure. It makes sense the first one here will be marketed to the 90% of the people that drive them to work and back and never put anything in them outside of a set of golf clubs. I'm sure the crew cab 5.5' is the most popular version of f-150 they sell, it was very difficult to find a used one with a 6.5' when I bought mine.
Towing will obviously crush the range, but they will be zippy fast.
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Ugh, it looks like its only going to have a 5.5ft bed. That's disappointing.
Keeps the weight down I'm sure. It makes sense the first one here will be marketed to the 90% of the people that drive them to work and back and never put anything in them outside of a set of golf clubs. I'm sure the crew cab 5.5' is the most popular version of f-150 they sell, it was very difficult to find a used one with a 6.5' when I bought mine.
Towing will obviously crush the range, but they will be zippy fast.
Seems very few non ford staff have been able to drive them so far. Those that have ridden in them say it is instant zoom, and more responsive than most other EV's they have been in. Mid 4 second 0-60.
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Lamrith-
It’s in the newest Ford Frontline magazine we get.
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Ugh, it looks like its only going to have a 5.5ft bed. That's disappointing.
Keeps the weight down I'm sure. It makes sense the first one here will be marketed to the 90% of the people that drive them to work and back and never put anything in them outside of a set of golf clubs. I'm sure the crew cab 5.5' is the most popular version of f-150 they sell, it was very difficult to find a used one with a 6.5' when I bought mine.
Towing will obviously crush the range, but they will be zippy fast.
Seems very few non ford staff have been able to drive them so far. Those that have ridden in them say it is instant zoom, and more responsive than most other EV's they have been in. Mid 4 second 0-60.
I drove a Mach E the other day. I’ll literally never buy one ever, but the acceleration was sort of shocking. That thing scoots.
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Ugh, it looks like its only going to have a 5.5ft bed. That's disappointing.
Keeps the weight down I'm sure. It makes sense the first one here will be marketed to the 90% of the people that drive them to work and back and never put anything in them outside of a set of golf clubs. I'm sure the crew cab 5.5' is the most popular version of f-150 they sell, it was very difficult to find a used one with a 6.5' when I bought mine.
Towing will obviously crush the range, but they will be zippy fast.
Seems very few non ford staff have been able to drive them so far. Those that have ridden in them say it is instant zoom, and more responsive than most other EV's they have been in. Mid 4 second 0-60.
I drove a Mach E the other day. I’ll literally never buy one ever, but the acceleration was sort of shocking. That thing scoots.
That is what I have heard. If I lost my SHO today the Mach-E would be on a pretty short list of replacements... If I could find one available to buy.
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I'm expecting that like most other companies Ford will eventually release multiple battery options for longer ranges later.
I'm definitely liking the Rivian. The wife wants their R1S now. They are looking at a $5B plant in Texas now to ramp up volumes. The R1T truck and first R1S are out now for those that got in early on pre-orders. New orders placed now won't be available until January. Waiting on official EPA ratings on those....claim is 300 miles. Rivian to launch a larger battery to get up to 400 miles range in 2022. The ability to raise the ground clearance from 8 inches up to 14.9 inches when in rough terrain is a cool feature. As is the quad motors: each wheel has a motor for true 4WD. They are also building out a nationwide charging network, except will use the DC fast charging standard instead of a custom method (ie Tesla). https://rivian.com/r1s
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I'm expecting that like most other companies Ford will eventually release multiple battery options for longer ranges later.
I'm definitely liking the Rivian. The wife wants their R1S now. They are looking at a $5B plant in Texas now to ramp up volumes. The R1T truck and first R1S are out now for those that got in early on pre-orders. New orders placed now won't be available until January. Waiting on official EPA ratings on those....claim is 300 miles. Rivian to launch a larger battery to get up to 400 miles range in 2022. The ability to raise the ground clearance from 8 inches up to 14.9 inches when in rough terrain is a cool feature. As is the quad motors: each wheel has a motor for true 4WD. They are also building out a nationwide charging network, except will use the DC fast charging standard instead of a custom method (ie Tesla). https://rivian.com/r1s
I would hope so to on the even larger batteries. Tech on those is continually advancing. It would be cool if down the road higher capacity was developed to fit in same space and Ford could offer upgrades down the road.
Those have decent specs and some cool features. Looks smaller than the lightning, more like a ranger (which is fine), a bit futuristic looking for my taste. My biggest concern is it sounds like they are out there making their own network and the fact they are a brand new unknown company. It would have been really smart if they have partnered with existing charging networks, but at least they seem to be using hte common charging port so one could get an account with EA or other charging stations.
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Uncle Sam really needs to jump in and mandate some required charging type for both the car and charging station before it gets too out of hand. They can have proprietary stuff on top, but the market really needs to be able to easily charge any vehicle at any charger. Imagine what a headache it would be if all gas cars had different shaped nozzles at the fuel pump.
Given that it's a truck, a cool feature would be the ability to buy an external battery pack you could throw in the bed for long trips. With new battery tech, it wouldn't be that heavy.
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There is a charging standard, and a standard plug spec J1772 (for Level 1 & Level 2) and CCS (used to be CHAdeMO) for DC & AC charging. Tesla is the only one that did a unique one, and they provide an adapter to fit the standard so it's all good. No need for government to intervene. Although the new Model 3s also have CCS ports on some models. Most new cars from most all brands will have CCS ports on them so you can use any J1772 or DC fast charging station.
Tesla big benefit is their new Gen3 super chargers are ridiculously fast. Faster than even the new DC Fast charging standard launching next year. But Tesla's adapter plug makes a Tesla compatible to the standard plugs. And now that Tesla just opened their charging network to all other brands (for a fee) there is an adapter plug to connect the supercharger to the standard J1772 plug. Non-Tesla's just won't be able to charge at the faster charging rate.
I forget which brand it is, but one of the new EVs has solar panels on it to extend the battery range when driven during the day.
I think the weight of the "spare" battery lifting in and out of the bed could be a challenge as those things are not light. But I imagine now that so many brands have EVs coming out that we'll see some cool technology getting added on. Perhaps something along the lines of what you're suggesting that are maybe stackable smaller capacity batteries that you can add and subtract if going on a longer road trip. But with so many super chargers and other charging stations already out there you can basically drive anywhere in the country on a freeway in a Tesla today without getting range anxiety. It's the remote hunting trips where I think the spare batteries could come in most useful, when you're not near a major highway to top up at a charging station. It should be an interesting next 5 years as the new technologies start to roll out.
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When I looked into visiting my brother in MT, it would take 4 stops for a total of 2 hours charge time (model 3). To me that's a no-go, I'll do two stops which is double what I do now, but 4 is too many. It only saves $17 over paying for gas.
For in town or work commutes, yeah, they are great. For road trips, I'll take my 34 gallon gas machine for now.
If you think the current fast chargers are big, wait until you see what's coming down the pike for commercial stuff - :o I have a buddy working on a pilot project and the power required to run the charger is mind boggling.
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With the Tesla V3 superchargers installed now, the charge time is significantly lower than it used to be. It's 250kW per car now (no more power sharing), and 1000 miles per hour charging rate. Number of stops to recharge depends on which model and battery size that you choose.
The new DC fast charging stations for non-Tesla's will almost keep pace. There is theoretically some 350kW stations coming from Electrify America that will put all the other brands into the same stratosphere as Tesla. But for now the 150kW DC fast chargers are still better than the Level 2 Chargepoint and Blink stations. Not that those Level 2 stations are bad, I used them for years back when I leased my Ford Focus electric for my city commuter. The Level 2 charger that I'm installing in my garage will charge up to 32 miles per hour, which is fine for overnight charging.
For the Ford Lightning, I can't tell if it has a CCS connector or just the old J1772. The website just references the at home charging station or a Mobile cable for using 120V and 240V charging stations....meaning it may not support DC fast charging, which would mean it may not have a CCS port. But I don't want to assume, so am trying to find out from Ford. As it would be very stupid for Ford not to use a CCS port (ie you can still use a J1772 plug off a Level 2 charger in a CCS port....so there is no reason to use a J1772 over a CCS)....so am giving Ford the benefit of the doubt until I see the actual specs on the Lightning charging. Edited: Confirmed Ford did indeed use the CCS port for their charging port. So it can use the DC Fast charging stations as well as the Level 2s.
Yeah the new chargers targeting electric semi trucks are some high power requirements. I'm not on the battery side of things anymore, mostly focused on the autonomous compute side of things.
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When I looked into visiting my brother in MT, it would take 4 stops for a total of 2 hours charge time (model 3). To me that's a no-go, I'll do two stops which is double what I do now, but 4 is too many. It only saves $17 over paying for gas.
You are not wrong about the time spent charging, it really is an issue and imho EV's are not really roadtrip rigs at their current stage of development, but they are getting there quick.
That sounds a bit off for savings honestly. Unless you were driving some econobox and using cheapest fuel you could and paying electrify america charge rates.
Model 3's avg 4.4Mi/Kwh and Tesla only charges $.25/Kwh So $.056/mi. A run to Billings for example would only cost $48 one way. I cannot thing of many ICE that would be close to that? 25mpg @ $3.65/gal would be over $120..
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When I looked into visiting my brother in MT, it would take 4 stops for a total of 2 hours charge time (model 3). To me that's a no-go, I'll do two stops which is double what I do now, but 4 is too many. It only saves $17 over paying for gas.
You are not wrong about the time spent charging, it really is an issue and imho EV's are not really roadtrip rigs at their current stage of development, but they are getting there quick.
That sounds a bit off for savings honestly. Unless you were driving some econobox and using cheapest fuel you could and paying electrify america charge rates.
Model 3's avg 4.4Mi/Kwh and Tesla only charges $.25/Kwh So $.056/mi. A run to Billings for example would only cost $48 one way. I cannot thing of many ICE that would be close to that? 25mpg @ $3.65/gal would be over $120..
That's from Tesla's mapping website where you plug in your vehicle and the origin and destination and it tells you where to stop, for how long and what the savings over gas would be.
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When I looked into visiting my brother in MT, it would take 4 stops for a total of 2 hours charge time (model 3). To me that's a no-go, I'll do two stops which is double what I do now, but 4 is too many. It only saves $17 over paying for gas.
You are not wrong about the time spent charging, it really is an issue and imho EV's are not really roadtrip rigs at their current stage of development, but they are getting there quick.
That sounds a bit off for savings honestly. Unless you were driving some econobox and using cheapest fuel you could and paying electrify america charge rates.
Model 3's avg 4.4Mi/Kwh and Tesla only charges $.25/Kwh So $.056/mi. A run to Billings for example would only cost $48 one way. I cannot thing of many ICE that would be close to that? 25mpg @ $3.65/gal would be over $120..
That's from Tesla's mapping website where you plug in your vehicle and the origin and destination and it tells you where to stop, for how long and what the savings over gas would be.
Their numbers don’t make sense.
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When I looked into visiting my brother in MT, it would take 4 stops for a total of 2 hours charge time (model 3). To me that's a no-go, I'll do two stops which is double what I do now, but 4 is too many. It only saves $17 over paying for gas.
You are not wrong about the time spent charging, it really is an issue and imho EV's are not really roadtrip rigs at their current stage of development, but they are getting there quick.
That sounds a bit off for savings honestly. Unless you were driving some econobox and using cheapest fuel you could and paying electrify america charge rates.
Model 3's avg 4.4Mi/Kwh and Tesla only charges $.25/Kwh So $.056/mi. A run to Billings for example would only cost $48 one way. I cannot thing of many ICE that would be close to that? 25mpg @ $3.65/gal would be over $120..
That's from Tesla's mapping website where you plug in your vehicle and the origin and destination and it tells you where to stop, for how long and what the savings over gas would be.
Odd that def does not add up, they must have put in some extremely high ICE MPG and low fuel prices? Without being address specific how far into MT were they going? Just to Missoula/Kalispel or all the way to Billings?
This link is a great way to compare $/mi of ICE vs EV. Just set the annual mileage to your trip miles..
http://chooseev.com/savings-calculator/
EV still pays penalty in terms of time for charging but from a pure "cost of fueling" standpoint Tesla is better, specially since (so far) tesla only charges $.25/Kwh. Other charging Co are charging $.32-42/Kwh so there is not as much savings on road trips. For many here that are hunters and trying to get away from people and deeps into the woods, or long trips to remote hunting areas, it is not a great match yet.
All that said the real sweet spot for EV's given current tech is day to day driving, not road trips. Unless you are burning 200mi+ a day the chances are very high that an EV will save you money on fuel and maintenance costs over a traditional ICE. Charge them with 240V outlet and you will see the vehicle charge from 10-15% to 80% or more overnight if needed. Getting a 240V outlet does not always require an electrician either. EV is such a hot thing that there are piggyback/sharing modules any homeowner can plug into a dryer outlet to split and share it without hiring an electrician.
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For me, the only EV that makes sense is one that I don’t have to charge away from my home and I don’t need to add electrical capabilities to my house to charge it. Something that can run a few errands around town without tripping range anxiety, is capable of highway speeds, charges in a few hours on a standard 110 outlet, or at worst 220. That means a smaller, lightweight vehicle with a relatively small battery with a reasonable price. That would take care of 90% of my vehicle needs. Doesn’t make sense to haul 1000+ lbs of battery around to pickup a few groceries or drive to and from work.
For the other 10%, I’ll stick with the carbon-based units.
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Tesla charges about 240% for electricity than I can get from my house full retail prices. Someone has to pay for all those charging stations.
I agree with CP, until a generational advance, we're looking at having our next car an EV that my wife uses to commute a few miles and trips around town. Towing the boat, road trips, hauling more people and whatever else will be a gas truck. Seems to me to be the best option.
I can put a 240V circuit in the house pretty easily and that will get us enough range fast enough to not worry about charging stations.
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I’m really digging the idea of hybrids. The powerboost F150 is impressive also. The power is ridiculous. Fuel economy is good, especially bouncing around town, driving 10 miles to work, groceries etc.
While I’m I’m not sold on full EV for my own use, they have a place. City municipality vehicles for example. Those vehicles don’t get any miles put on them at any one time. Running around town, then parking them back at the shop or office or whatever to charge overnight, get back in them and go the next day.
These vehicles won’t work for everyone and the manufacturers know that.
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https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2020/12/11/2021-ford-f-150-powerboost-fuel-economy.html
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Interesting new thing that could help make the lightning more usable for some in this forum. Since it doubles as a camping space as well. Def be interesting to see data on the extra drag/weight being pulled vs charge capacity it adds. As well as how it would compare to a battery pack in the bed or even generator & fuel option. I could see it useful for those thinking about a lightning but concerned as their hunting/scouting/outdoor activities take them 100-150 away from charging and not wanting to run the ragged edge of range.
https://www.lightningowners.com/threads/improve-trailer-towing-range-with-trailer-mounted-batteries.107/?fbclid=IwAR1asAgGFpLx_XbNYNlU3XyjGvKYa7V-zDRia4gxgQnU2t_SwPF1RwAZqYE
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Ford is doubling production of the Lightning - up to 80,000 per year.
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Ford is doubling production of the Lightning - up to 80,000 per year.
That is for 2024 The rest of the article claims only 15K total units for 2022. That is an extremely disappointing number honestly. It is a complete joke as a matter of fact. The produced almost 13k Mach-E in 1st half of 2021which is a completely new build. But they only target 15K TOTAL F150 Lightning for a year, when most of the truck is existing F150 parts? Yeah more than a little disappointed in hearing that. I really hope Reuters has their info wrong, 15k honestly seems like a joke of a number and will severely hurt their sales as I think Tesla is pushing hard to finally release the CT.
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Well if 15k is the number, I probably need to give my truck some TLC to make it last till 2023!
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Ford is doubling production of the Lightning - up to 80,000 per year.
That is for 2024 The rest of the article claims only 15K total units for 2022. That is an extremely disappointing number honestly. It is a complete joke as a matter of fact. The produced almost 13k Mach-E in 1st half of 2021which is a completely new build. But they only target 15K TOTAL F150 Lightning for a year, when most of the truck is existing F150 parts? Yeah more than a little disappointed in hearing that. I really hope Reuters has their info wrong, 15k honestly seems like a joke of a number and will severely hurt their sales as I think Tesla is pushing hard to finally release the CT.
That assumes they have access to all the parts and are consciously holding production down. Maybe they are, maybe that's all the parts they think they can get right now. Maybe they are testing the water, hard to say.
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Well if 15k is the number, I probably need to give my truck some TLC to make it last till 2023!
Sounds like you got in on reservation early? I heard they had over 20K reservations in the 1st 24hrs and was 100K within 3 weeks. Reservation to order conversion rate will be interesting. There could be people that placed order 1st week that not see rig for over 2yrs. yikes. I was very slow on the draw and past the 100K mark so looing 2024/25 depending on actual production and conversion rates.
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Well if 15k is the number, I probably need to give my truck some TLC to make it last till 2023!
Sounds like you got in on reservation early? I heard they had over 20K reservations in the 1st 24hrs and was 100K within 3 weeks. Reservation to order conversion rate will be interesting. There could be people that placed order 1st week that not see rig for over 2yrs. yikes. I was very slow on the draw and past the 100K mark so looing 2024/25 depending on actual production and conversion rates.
I reserved it 5/20. So I could get lucky!
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Well if 15k is the number, I probably need to give my truck some TLC to make it last till 2023!
Sounds like you got in on reservation early? I heard they had over 20K reservations in the 1st 24hrs and was 100K within 3 weeks. Reservation to order conversion rate will be interesting. There could be people that placed order 1st week that not see rig for over 2yrs. yikes. I was very slow on the draw and past the 100K mark so looing 2024/25 depending on actual production and conversion rates.
I reserved it 5/20. So I could get lucky!
Yeah you are set! I bet you will get in on 2022 rig. I blew it off when I saw a few headlines about the "new ford truck" then month later my oldest asked if I had seen the details on it. nope. kicking myself now for sure, reserved June 20
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EPA just completed their dyno tests for rating the Rivian, making Rivian the first truck or full size SUV EV with an official EPA rating. Came in at 314 mile range on the R1T truck with standard battery pack, and 316 miles on the R1S SUV. 300 was the expected number, so slightly higher than anticipated. The larger 400+ mile battery pack won't likely complete EPA evaluation until early next year. This EPA rating was the last thing holding up deliveries, so the lucky folks that got in early on reservations will start receiving their R1T and R1S deliveries starting this month.
Ford is estimating 230 mile range on their standard battery Lightning and up to 300+ on their extended range battery. Not sure what date the EPA will release Ford's numbers.
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EPA just completed their dyno tests for rating the Rivian, making Rivian the first truck or full size SUV EV with an official EPA rating. Came in at 314 mile range on the R1T truck with standard battery pack, and 316 miles on the R1S SUV. 300 was the expected number, so slightly higher than anticipated. The larger 400+ mile battery pack won't likely complete EPA evaluation until early next year. This EPA rating was the last thing holding up deliveries, so the lucky folks that got in early on reservations will start receiving their R1T and R1S deliveries starting this month.
Ford is estimating 230 mile range on their standard battery Lightning and up to 300+ on their extended range battery. Not sure what date the EPA will release Ford's numbers.
From what I had heard in the EV circles the EPA uses mfg numbers, cool to hear epa has some std put together. Def eager to see what the lightning pulls off.
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EPA just completed their dyno tests for rating the Rivian, making Rivian the first truck or full size SUV EV with an official EPA rating. Came in at 314 mile range on the R1T truck with standard battery pack, and 316 miles on the R1S SUV. 300 was the expected number, so slightly higher than anticipated. The larger 400+ mile battery pack won't likely complete EPA evaluation until early next year. This EPA rating was the last thing holding up deliveries, so the lucky folks that got in early on reservations will start receiving their R1T and R1S deliveries starting this month.
Ford is estimating 230 mile range on their standard battery Lightning and up to 300+ on their extended range battery. Not sure what date the EPA will release Ford's numbers.
From what I had heard in the EV circles the EPA uses mfg numbers, cool to hear epa has some std put together. Def eager to see what the lightning pulls off.
The EPA actually receives test vehicles and puts them through a series of tests on a dynamometer and other tests to determine the final mileage and range ratings for EVs. https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Shopping-Guides/electric-vehicle-range-testing-understanding-nedc-vs-wltp-vs-epa
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EPA just completed their dyno tests for rating the Rivian, making Rivian the first truck or full size SUV EV with an official EPA rating. Came in at 314 mile range on the R1T truck with standard battery pack, and 316 miles on the R1S SUV. 300 was the expected number, so slightly higher than anticipated. The larger 400+ mile battery pack won't likely complete EPA evaluation until early next year. This EPA rating was the last thing holding up deliveries, so the lucky folks that got in early on reservations will start receiving their R1T and R1S deliveries starting this month.
Ford is estimating 230 mile range on their standard battery Lightning and up to 300+ on their extended range battery. Not sure what date the EPA will release Ford's numbers.
From what I had heard in the EV circles the EPA uses mfg numbers, cool to hear epa has some std put together. Def eager to see what the lightning pulls off.
The EPA actually receives test vehicles and puts them through a series of tests on a dynamometer and other tests to determine the final mileage and range ratings for EVs. https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Shopping-Guides/electric-vehicle-range-testing-understanding-nedc-vs-wltp-vs-epa
Yeah did a bit of digging after seeing your post.
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/18/how-does-epa-calculate-electric-car-range/
Do we know if ford has given them test rigs yet?
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The Ford Lightning EPA rating won't be published until early 2022 per Ford's website. I haven't seen any comments from Ford yet on if they've handed the EPA any test vehicles yet. Most EV companies are underestimating their expected EPA rating, as the damage in public image for overestimating would be severe given the spotlight right now. And based on some of what the car magazine writers are saying about the test drives they've gotten in the Lightning, multiple writers are suggesting Ford is sandbagging the expected EPA rating.
These are just early test drive experience, and the EPA tests are much more robust.....but odds are the base model Lightning will end up with a higher than 230 mile range in the final EPA number.
https://topelectricsuv.com/news/ford/ford-f150-electric-new-update/
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Yeah the mass consensus is that Ford is sandbagging. Unlike Tesla typically does.
Anyone else going to the Ford EV events on 16th/17th? I registered for the pro tour on Sept 17th @ 12:45 and then just got invite and was able to register for the consumer event Sept 16th @ 5pm.
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Anyone else make it to a Lighting event at Wildwaves? I was a big underwhelmed by the consumer event yesterday. Truck looks great and the ride along was great, but that was it, the rest was all stuff seen before and no presentations or speaking. Staff was there but no push or promo of the vehicle.
The Pro event today was another thing. It was all presentations, much info we have heard before, but some tidbits not known here and there. Def felt like a better experience. The ride alongs were different too, as they had one trailer pulling a 5000# trailer. It pulled it like it was not even there, even up the slop in the parking lot. No data on towing range yet but they are working on building data and a towing curve.
The bidirectional power is sounding better. They had partnered with Sunrun initially, but it sounds like Ford is changing direction and bringing the install service inhouse and have bought a company to handle the consumer and fleet side charging installs. I hung around after that presentation and asked about what made it different and needing special installer and the guy said that was just to provide a one stop solution for the customer. Any licensed electrician could install the bi-directional 80A charging setup. That is great news imho.
Speaking of bringing inhouse, it also sounds like they are bringing more and more things inhouse. I have a feeling the whole chip and other shortages has really chaffed their hide. They even said they are bringing battery production inhouse.
Interesting note, the 4 lightnings on this tour are all handbuilt prototypes, hence no public driving. These things HAUL bigtime. Even in the rain today the awd was hooking up and screaming around the course.
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I’m not seeing any advantage to bi-directional charging. That is, unless you have an off-grid cabin or something similar. What I’m I missing? Why would Ford add the extra cost and complexity?
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I’m not seeing any advantage to bi-directional charging. That is, unless you have an off-grid cabin or something similar. What I’m I missing? Why would Ford add the extra cost and complexity?
It functions as backup power for your home. The Lightning is expected to be able to provide the average home backup power for 3 days, or up to 10 days if power is rationed.
So saves you the cost of buying a backup generator for when the power goes out....which can get quite expensive for a whole house backup generator.
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Ohh. Also worth noting. Battery size came up and it was said battery size would be announced soon and that it should be in the 115-125kw range.
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I’m not seeing any advantage to bi-directional charging. That is, unless you have an off-grid cabin or something similar. What I’m I missing? Why would Ford add the extra cost and complexity?
It functions as backup power for your home. The Lightning is expected to be able to provide the average home backup power for 3 days, or up to 10 days if power is rationed.
So saves you the cost of buying a backup generator for when the power goes out....which can get quite expensive for a whole house backup generator.
I understand all that; I just don't see this feature selling many trucks or swaying a buyer from truck A to truck F. But maybe that's just me.
So it powers the house for a few days, then I'm out of power and I have a dead truck. Still need backup power.
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I think a lot of people could find value in that, power is usually out a couple hours to a day or two in most cases and that will keep you going. During the outage, drive the other car to the store for your ice cream.
It's not much extra cost or complexity really, I'm surprised it has taken them this long actually as they have been talking about it for quite a while. PV inverters have been bi-directional forever, same general technology in the charger.
Next step will be a home microgrid where you have the truck, a generator, PV, maybe extra batteries depending on what you want to do. A big part of the country is tired of going without power when storms or fires happen.
I don't see it as being the thing that sells the truck though, just an added benefit. They won't have any problem selling those trucks, they are desperately trying to make as many as possible before the competition catches up.
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Anyone else make it to a Lighting event at Wildwaves? I was a big underwhelmed by the consumer event yesterday. Truck looks great and the ride along was great, but that was it, the rest was all stuff seen before and no presentations or speaking. Staff was there but no push or promo of the vehicle.
The Pro event today was another thing. It was all presentations, much info we have heard before, but some tidbits not known here and there. Def felt like a better experience. The ride alongs were different too, as they had one trailer pulling a 5000# trailer. It pulled it like it was not even there, even up the slop in the parking lot. No data on towing range yet but they are working on building data and a towing curve.
The bidirectional power is sounding better. They had partnered with Sunrun initially, but it sounds like Ford is changing direction and bringing the install service inhouse and have bought a company to handle the consumer and fleet side charging installs. I hung around after that presentation and asked about what made it different and needing special installer and the guy said that was just to provide a one stop solution for the customer. Any licensed electrician could install the bi-directional 80A charging setup. That is great news imho.
Speaking of bringing inhouse, it also sounds like they are bringing more and more things inhouse. I have a feeling the whole chip and other shortages has really chaffed their hide. They even said they are bringing battery production inhouse.
Interesting note, the 4 lightnings on this tour are all handbuilt prototypes, hence no public driving. These things HAUL bigtime. Even in the rain today the awd was hooking up and screaming around the course.
I attended yesterdays pro presentation. The ride along was impressive as was the trailer towing. That truck is so fast for the general public to be driving. Its a 6500 lb missile. That's basically an f250 crew cab diesel that can do 0-60 in 4.4 or 5.4 depending on who you ask. I was able to drive the new f150 responder, that is a great well balanced truck.
I was on the fence about the lightning until yesterday. I would probable shell out the extra money for the bigger battery for the extra power. I still can't believe how well it handled the autocross course, it felt more planted than the PIUs they let us drive.
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I’m not seeing any advantage to bi-directional charging. That is, unless you have an off-grid cabin or something similar. What I’m I missing? Why would Ford add the extra cost and complexity?
It functions as backup power for your home. The Lightning is expected to be able to provide the average home backup power for 3 days, or up to 10 days if power is rationed.
So saves you the cost of buying a backup generator for when the power goes out....which can get quite expensive for a whole house backup generator.
I understand all that; I just don't see this feature selling many trucks or swaying a buyer from truck A to truck F. But maybe that's just me.
So it powers the house for a few days, then I'm out of power and I have a dead truck. Still need backup power.
True enough. I know the power company I have I we rarely have an outage that lasts more than 24hrs. Only time it was longer was a few years back when the feed lines for the entire puget sound went down a number of years back. For me 3 days would be way more than needed. Folks could also lower their power consumption, it could last longer as the 3 day estimate was based on 30Kwh a day. Drop back to just keeping fridge and a few lights going
Anyone else make it to a Lighting event at Wildwaves? I was a big underwhelmed by the consumer event yesterday. Truck looks great and the ride along was great, but that was it, the rest was all stuff seen before and no presentations or speaking. Staff was there but no push or promo of the vehicle.
The Pro event today was another thing. It was all presentations, much info we have heard before, but some tidbits not known here and there. Def felt like a better experience. The ride alongs were different too, as they had one trailer pulling a 5000# trailer. It pulled it like it was not even there, even up the slop in the parking lot. No data on towing range yet but they are working on building data and a towing curve.
The bidirectional power is sounding better. They had partnered with Sunrun initially, but it sounds like Ford is changing direction and bringing the install service inhouse and have bought a company to handle the consumer and fleet side charging installs. I hung around after that presentation and asked about what made it different and needing special installer and the guy said that was just to provide a one stop solution for the customer. Any licensed electrician could install the bi-directional 80A charging setup. That is great news imho.
Speaking of bringing inhouse, it also sounds like they are bringing more and more things inhouse. I have a feeling the whole chip and other shortages has really chaffed their hide. They even said they are bringing battery production inhouse.
Interesting note, the 4 lightnings on this tour are all handbuilt prototypes, hence no public driving. These things HAUL bigtime. Even in the rain today the awd was hooking up and screaming around the course.
I attended yesterdays pro presentation. The ride along was impressive as was the trailer towing. That truck is so fast for the general public to be driving. Its a 6500 lb missile. That's basically an f250 crew cab diesel that can do 0-60 in 4.4 or 5.4 depending on who you ask. I was able to drive the new f150 responder, that is a great well balanced truck.
I was on the fence about the lightning until yesterday. I would probable shell out the extra money for the bigger battery for the extra power. I still can't believe how well it handled the autocross course, it felt more planted than the PIUs they let us drive.
you were there for the PI event before hand? I came in just as that was ending around 12:15, those rigs were scooting around the course quick! I have been sold on the Lightning for a while, the ride along just cemented it in even more.
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Yes I did both events. They wouldn't pull out the 3.0 ecoboost PIU because it was raining. Two years ago I drove one in the rain and it was a handful. They must have had an incident at some point directing that decision. That car is great for state patrols getting up to highway speed but overkill for city use. An Explorer ST would be a fun SUV for sure.
The guy driving the Lightning on the quick course is really good, so is his buddy I didn't see there this time. They took us for a ride in a piu that had me wondering how we didn't roll over. :chuckle:
Did the Lighting presenter tell your group the front trunk was good for putting a dead deer in because you can wash out the blood with a hose? I thought that was great.
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Yes I did both events. They wouldn't pull out the 3.0 ecoboost PIU because it was raining. Two years ago I drove one in the rain and it was a handful. They must have had an incident at some point directing that decision. That car is great for state patrols getting up to highway speed but overkill for city use. An Explorer ST would be a fun SUV for sure.
The guy driving the Lightning on the quick course is really good, so is his buddy I didn't see there this time. They took us for a ride in a piu that had me wondering how we didn't roll over. :chuckle:
Did the Lighting presenter tell your group the front trunk was good for putting a dead deer in because you can wash out the blood with a hose? I thought that was great.
HAHA no he didn't, hunting was not brought up in our group. I was impressed with the lightning driver as well. you could tell he knew the truck well they way he threw it around.
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I think a lot of people could find value in that, power is usually out a couple hours to a day or two in most cases and that will keep you going. During the outage, drive the other car to the store for your ice cream.
It's not much extra cost or complexity really, I'm surprised it has taken them this long actually as they have been talking about it for quite a while. PV inverters have been bi-directional forever, same general technology in the charger.
Next step will be a home microgrid where you have the truck, a generator, PV, maybe extra batteries depending on what you want to do. A big part of the country is tired of going without power when storms or fires happen.
I don't see it as being the thing that sells the truck though, just an added benefit. They won't have any problem selling those trucks, they are desperately trying to make as many as possible before the competition catches up.
Okay, I can see how a giant, self-propelled, Goal Zero Yeti might come in handy. Especially if it can tow my boat and haul a load of firewood.
If it’s not much extra cost, great. But as a stock owner, I hope Ford is doing their market research and not just throwing every feature they can think up into this. I’d like to see them selling these trucks for a profit.
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It may also take road hunting to a new level, much easier to sneak up on something than rolling an aftermarket turbo wheel up the road.
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They told us you can set the truck up to shut down the aux power outlets before you don't have enough energy to get you back home. It also remembers all your trailers and can calculate range over a given path, perhaps after you have travelled before, or maybe a cloud knowledge sharing thing :dunno: The towing package supposedly can show your tongue weight thresholds at the rear tail led tailight segments so you don't go over. It only has 9 inches of ground clearance so hopefully they end up offering a more off road capable version in the future.
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I may have been completely wrong in Poo Pooing the bidirectional charging feature. After talking to a resident of Palm Springs, where they have to deal with frequent blacks-outs, rolling brown-outs, and time-of-use rate plans, he convinced me that this feature is a big deal and it’s just going to get bigger.
According to him, the lowly Nissan Leaf is popular there because it is one of the few EVs that has this feature and EV owners there will not be buying a new vehicle without bidirectional charging.
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We get pretty spoiled with abundant, reliable and cheap power up here. It's even virtually all renewable unless you go by the definitions in Olympia.
If you had TOU pricing it would be a slam dunk, especially if your employer charged for free. Charge it up at work, drive home, discharge during peak during dinner, back to charging at cheap rates overnight, do the same in the morning and then repeat.
Only question would be what does all that extra usage do to battery capacity life?
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Yep, paying these rates would suck.
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Good lord, that is crazy rates. We are spoiled here.
FYI - News late last week out of a dealership is that ordering will open up Oct 26 for the lightning.
Based on how far back I am plus the extremely low production numbers being thrown around I picked up a cheap EV 2weeks ago. I could not pass up the saving for commuting @$0.057/kw my elect co charges me.
Plus I can start getting used to the EV lifestyle. I get 2full days commuting on a single charge and with 240v charge it goes from 0-100% in <8hrs. More likely I will plug it into 120v each night and keep it topped off so no worries if need to run errands at last minute after work.
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Ouch, you could really make some money transporting your employers electricity back home there.
I bet the free chargers are much more popular than around here.
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Yeah, I rarely see anyone using the free chargers around here. At 10 cents/KWh it isn’t worth most people’s time.
There are 4 free charging spots at Lighthouse Park, never seen more than 2 cars there at any time. Usually either empty, or the same black Tesla that parks there overnight and walks on the ferry.
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It will be interesting to see what the aftermarket community develops for these. Once there are enough out, it would be cool to have external packs you can add to increase range or arbitrage capacity. I'm wondering how long before groups hack the software for modifications and additions.
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Good lord, that is crazy rates. We are spoiled here.
FYI - News late last week out of a dealership is that ordering will open up Oct 26 for the lightning.
Based on how far back I am plus the extremely low production numbers being thrown around I picked up a cheap EV 2weeks ago. I could not pass up the saving for commuting @$0.057/kw my elect co charges me.
Plus I can start getting used to the EV lifestyle. I get 2full days commuting on a single charge and with 240v charge it goes from 0-100% in <8hrs. More likely I will plug it into 120v each night and keep it topped off so no worries if need to run errands at last minute after work.
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What did you get?
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Nothing fancy or trendy, it's a 2016 Fiat 500e w/36k mi so still has factory battery warranty for few years. Was$10k otd, tags and all. Just bummed I did not find out about them 8mos ago, they were $3-4k cheaper. I wanted cheap and there is no ev cheaper at this point.
They are Only 100mi range at best or might be only 85mi depending on source. I don't see that range with how I drive, plus HVAC load, hills, etc. While the ride is fine they are not efficient for highway running, they are best under 50-55mph. Just so happens I live 14mi from work though so it is a great fit. Better yet, I actually fit. At 6'4" that is not always easy, but this car has more headroom than my Taurus. Solid 1"+ over my head.
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Nothing fancy or trendy, it's a 2016 Fiat 500e w/36k mi so still has factory battery warranty for few years. Was$10k otd, tags and all. Just bummed I did not find out about them 8mos ago, they were $3-4k cheaper. I wanted cheap and there is no ev cheaper at this point.
They are Only 100mi range at best or might be only 85mi depending on source. I don't see that range with how I drive, plus HVAC load, hills, etc. While the ride is fine they are not efficient for highway running, they are best under 50-55mph. Just so happens I live 14mi from work though so it is a great fit. Better yet, I actually fit. At 6'4" that is not always easy, but this car has more headroom than my Taurus. Solid 1"+ over my head.
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Should serve you well. I’d probably go with something similar if I still had to commute. My commuting these days is between the man cave and the kitchen.
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Nothing fancy or trendy, it's a 2016 Fiat 500e w/36k mi so still has factory battery warranty for few years. Was$10k otd, tags and all. Just bummed I did not find out about them 8mos ago, they were $3-4k cheaper. I wanted cheap and there is no ev cheaper at this point.
They are Only 100mi range at best or might be only 85mi depending on source. I don't see that range with how I drive, plus HVAC load, hills, etc. While the ride is fine they are not efficient for highway running, they are best under 50-55mph. Just so happens I live 14mi from work though so it is a great fit. Better yet, I actually fit. At 6'4" that is not always easy, but this car has more headroom than my Taurus. Solid 1"+ over my head.
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Should serve you well. I’d probably go with something similar if I still had to commute. My commuting these days is between the man cave and the kitchen.
Yeah, we are using it for everything local, being the new toy and all.
I was pleasantly surprised with performance. On paper it looks like slug, though faster than the ICE 500'S. But it jumps right off line, electric torque will roast tires off. Nice responsive throttle at around town speeds whick makes it fun to drive.
Jealous of your commute for sure.
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Kind of dry but this answered a few questions on the truck. Still a lot unanswered.
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Looks like we are going to be delayed a bit.
https://insideevs.com/news/542640/ford-f150-lightning-ordering-postponed/
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Looks like we are going to be delayed a bit.
https://insideevs.com/news/542640/ford-f150-lightning-ordering-postponed/
Yeah but truth be told Ford never once said a planned date. That was all speculation that became truth from one person/dealers comment. Then everyone ran with it. Don't get me wrong I was excited to get order placed, but had a feeling it was BS. Same with the 15K 1st year numbers. ONE guy writing for Reuters claimed a ford employee told him that and everyone has run with it like Gospel. Even with probably material shortages, 15K for a full years production just makes zero sense, ford makes that many normal F150 in a week. That low a number is can't be worth producing in terms of costs to run the plant versus revenue.
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Let's be honest, it's a huge risk, there aren't any commercially successful electric trucks out there. Most around here seem to think it will be a hit, but it could be a flop as well. There are plenty of places to go wrong, it's not like they are just putting a new motor or trim package in a truck they have been selling for over seventy years. They got the looks right, just need to deliver on performance, reliability and features.
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Let's be honest, it's a huge risk, there aren't any commercially successful electric trucks out there. Most around here seem to think it will be a hit, but it could be a flop as well. There are plenty of places to go wrong, it's not like they are just putting a new motor or trim package in a truck they have been selling for over seventy years. They got the looks right, just need to deliver on performance, reliability and features.
What if they get it right? I can see improved reliability when they get rid of thousands of moving parts. I'd just like to see them not try to do too much at once.
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Yeah, very simple mechanically compared to gas. Unfortunately very complex electronically compared to gas. In my mind you are trading complexity at best, not reducing it.
The one thing that concerns me about EVs in general is that I can go buy a water pump and swap it out in an hour for cheap. I can't go buy an aftermarket board on the $10k onboard charge controller or the computer that runs assisted driving or any of the 100 other computers needed. Likely I couldn't even troubleshoot it even if I could. All the critical parts now might be single sourced from the OEM, likely no aftermarket or any competition since it will all be patent and secret. Single source guarantees $$$$ to maintain them.
Do any non dealer shops work on these? Will the OEM provide factory service manuals or will it all be dealer only?
Best case you get aftermarket batteries, motors, simple stuff without much circuitry, but the big critical stuff could easily be kept proprietary by the OEMs. For sure the scrap market will be red hot.
Either way, I think it will be a hit. Even if they get quite a few things wrong, they can work them out. Hopefully they will treat the first owners right.
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Looks like Ford has been able to get hold of chips where others have not. Should help with Lightning production.
"Ford said increased availability of semiconductor chips and higher vehicle shipments in the third quarter enabled it to post higher-than-expected results."
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/27/ford-f-earnings-q3-2021.html?__source=newsletter%7Cinvestorsclub
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Yeah, very simple mechanically compared to gas. Unfortunately very complex electronically compared to gas. In my mind you are trading complexity at best, not reducing it.
The one thing that concerns me about EVs in general is that I can go buy a water pump and swap it out in an hour for cheap. I can't go buy an aftermarket board on the $10k onboard charge controller or the computer that runs assisted driving or any of the 100 other computers needed. Likely I couldn't even troubleshoot it even if I could. All the critical parts now might be single sourced from the OEM, likely no aftermarket or any competition since it will all be patent and secret. Single source guarantees $$$$ to maintain them.
Do any non dealer shops work on these? Will the OEM provide factory service manuals or will it all be dealer only?
Best case you get aftermarket batteries, motors, simple stuff without much circuitry, but the big critical stuff could easily be kept proprietary by the OEMs. For sure the scrap market will be red hot.
Either way, I think it will be a hit. Even if they get quite a few things wrong, they can work them out. Hopefully they will treat the first owners right.
Same crap that goes on with everyone's favorite electronic, the cell phone. Repair has fallen to replace.
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This seems to show EV's are cheaper to maintain than gas, but they offset maintenance costs with fuel savings so it isn't apples to apples. It also assumes you pay for the repairs using OEM stuff, not doing it yourself, so who knows.
https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/evs-offer-big-savings-over-traditional-gas-powered-cars/
The study also found that maintenance and repair costs for EVs are significantly lower over the life of the vehicle—about half—than for gasoline-powered vehicles, which require regular fluid changes and are more mechanically complex. The average dollar savings over the lifetime of the vehicle is about $4,600.
I would buy an EV today if I was looking at a new vehicle and they had what I wanted, but the maintenance does make me nervous. I haven't compared warranties, when the Lightning shows up it will be interesting to see if there are any differences in the warranty between the two technologies.
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Honestly ev are not any more complex than today's ICE rigs when you get down to it. Rigs today are really complex. Both features and mechanically.
Changing that water pump many times means pulling intakes, timing chains and all. I miss the old days of pull belts, unbolt and go.
Ev are less maintenance by a large margin. No oil, fuel systems, emissions, transmission, exhaust, etc.
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You guys see the EV crate motor thing in Ford's new concept truck? Sounds interesting and not as expensive as I would have thought. Sounds like you might need two but they don't go into much detail on what it includes, just the motor or everything you need.
https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021/11/02/all-electric-f-100-eluminator-concept.html
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They should put one in an original F-100 Lightning.
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They should put one in an original F-100 Lightning.
I think that would be considered sacrilege.................
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I would be interested in putting one in my older Chevy..... For $4k you get a brand new powertrain and no fuel cost. I'll just need to get me one of those A-dapter kits.
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I would be interested in putting one in my older Chevy..... For $4k you get a brand new powertrain and no fuel cost. I'll just need to get me one of those A-dapter kits.
I think $3,900 only gets you a motor.
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The extra $100 was for an extension cord, we only drive short distances most of the time. :chuckle:
So, you need a motor, battery, some sort of BMS, speed control, mechanical throttle interface, ignition interface, charging port, charger, bunch-o-wire and some way to mount it to the frame and patch it into the old drivetrain. Hopefully it's an old truck or your existing computer is going to be rather confused. Probably a few other things as well. Now I understand why it was in a concept vehicle.
Or, you could make a killer side by side with some round stock, a seat and a good life insurance policy.
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I would be interested in putting one in my older Chevy..... For $4k you get a brand new powertrain and no fuel cost. I'll just need to get me one of those A-dapter kits.
I think $3,900 only gets you a motor.
Exactly, that is motor assembly only no battery, controller, cooling, etc.. Plus then you need electric power steering, AC, heat, etc..
Al that negativity aside, it is very cool and I look forward to seeing what complete kits $ out at.
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Ford has stopped accepting reservations. They have exceeded production capability through 2022.
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Yeah- 200,000 reservations. That thing is selling like hot cakes
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Ford has stopped accepting reservations. They have exceeded production capability through 2022.
If the rumored numbers floating around about year 1 production are correct (15K) they passed that in the first 10min of reservation banks being open.
I think it has less to do with any particular years production limits and more that the numbers are beyond anything they expected and current reports are saying ordering will finally start in Jan. The build & price was showing some data yesterday like they are prepping to make that live very soon too. They of course fixed their oversight now so the link no longer works.
I know I am pretty jazzed to get the process rolling.
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Batteries are the bottleneck.
Jim Farley:
“We have a dedicated team right now just doing one thing: finding a way to double our capacity by finding batteries, whatever it takes, to double our capacity of Lightning,"
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Batteries are the bottleneck.
Jim Farley:
“We have a dedicated team right now just doing one thing: finding a way to double our capacity by finding batteries, whatever it takes, to double our capacity of Lightning,"
True no doubt, but they are finding ways to produce 44k+ Mach-E a year so I do not think that is the holdup.?
I still just don't buy off that they plan/planned to only produce 15K lightnings the first year that honestly is a total failure if they can only make that many or planned to, it is not worth even producing and will cost them dearly in terms of customer trust/retention. There has been so much BS info about this vehicle I literally do not believe 3/4 of what I hear.
They keep talking about doubling, doubling again and now again. But no actual confirmable # aside from a single Reuters article claiming an unnamed Ford person said 15K. If that was the number then they should be at 60K 1st year now after doubling a few times. 60K honestly makes more sense for an original target number, 40-60k is what I would have expected for 1st year given they made 44k mach-e being a brand new vehicle and the lightning being a F150 they already know how to build other than EV specific items. Tesla is making Y's and 3's by the thousands, Rivian is starting to push out units so batteries are available and whlie they may not throw more weight than Tesla, they surely could bring enough weight to the game to get allocations before Rivian.. Rivian suddenly has units rolling off the line makes me wonder if Rivian did something to hose Ford hence the partnership ending..?
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I think that they can keep doubling the stock, and more once their battery plants come on line.
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So latest from ford. They plan to not double but TRIPLE Mach-E production. That screams to me that the Lightning production numbers we have had spouted from some media as gospel are garbage. It's Def not a battery issue, and the truck is primarily F150 parts, and they build in excess of 40K a month of those.... My biggest hope is that when ordering opens up next month we start to get some real information and production estimates from Ford.
https://electrek.co/2021/12/10/ford-2022-mustang-mach-e/
Meanwhile I spent the entire day installing a new 70A circuit to a 14-50 outlet and hardwired Chargepoint Home Flex 50A charger for my current commuter car. Man the #4 wire is a real pita to work with!! Managed to complete the project with only 3 trips to the hardware store too.
This setup is way, WAY overkill for the little fiat which can only use half that capacity. But buy once, cry once. Plus now I am ready for any other EV I might get AND I got it done before the deadline so I can qualify for a tax credit of 30% of the install cost!
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Reminds me of compact stranded wire, like trying to wire a service with rebar.
Good luck, can't wait to see what they are like vicariously through you guys. With the supply issues, it could be something pretty simple they are having trouble with or even marketing or sales projections.
I have a 40 A circuit for ac expansion I could use if I ever bought one but would likely have to trench for a 50 A. I added several extra expansion circuits when I upgraded our service but an EV charger wasn't on the radar.
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Reminds me of compact stranded wire, like trying to wire a service with rebar.
Good luck, can't wait to see what they are like vicariously through you guys. With the supply issues, it could be something pretty simple they are having trouble with or even marketing or sales projections.
I have a 40 A circuit for ac expansion I could use if I ever bought one but would likely have to trench for a 50 A. I added several extra expansion circuits when I upgraded our service but an EV charger wasn't on the radar.
Tell me about it. I JUST remodeled (down to studs and 100% new electrical) my garage 2 yrs ago. Trenched and ran 100A feed to new sub panel in garage. I added a bunch of 240V/30A locations thinking how spoiled I was and overbuilding it and ready for EV charger. I didn't realize EV were so much higher amps. :-(
Now I have added two new 240V in the last year, one for Minisplit HVAC and now the big heavy run for EV. 30A service is only rated for like 24A EV charger. That's why I ran #4 and a 70A service, since the 50A charger would need 62.5A service to be properly setup.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211213/49cb072a9105505958e2189ab2bcd3db.jpg)
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For me, the wiring is one thing but trenching is a killer. In our subdivision, they scraped the topsoil and dropped sod on top of the rocks and concrete like soil. The regular trencher won't touch it, I have to get the stand on version and it rattles pictures off the wall and takes all day to go 50'. I'll be tempted to just run conduit around the exterior.
I'm glad I upgraded our service while our transformer had capacity, between the increased need for ac and ev's, I imagine it will fill up in the near future.
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I would say just run the external conduit if the need arises. Done right and then painted to match house it will not be too noticeable.
My garage was detached hence trench for it's service upgrade to 100A (old was 30A) The old mast setup was just not suitable for the upgrade.
Thankfully our soil is not like yours and diggable by hand for the 40ft needed, though the hardpan in only about 3-4ft down.
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Some great info in the final livestream lastnight! I will see if can find a video link to recording when I get home.
They went over features and detail of each trim package.
98kw std battery, 131kw extended range.
Platinum comes with 80A charger and the extended battery I believe.
The 80A charger does require a 100A circuit. I missed detail on the power home part as it was dinnertime, so want to go back and rewatch.
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Here is a youtube copy of the livestream from yesterday. The host can be a bit snake oil salesman, but some good info, specially about the differences in models. Love how he answers when ordering starts without answering :-p
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Got an email that ordering will open up beginning after the new year. They are going to stagger the ordering by sending out invitations.
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Got an email that ordering will open up beginning after the new year. They are going to stagger the ordering by sending out invitations.
Yup waves every 2 weeks. Dealers had to have their priority customers submitted last fri for bump to head of line. Dealers got one time set number of bumps based on #of reservations they have.
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I see a lot of potential for battery powered vehicles, and for this ford lightning. A few questions come to mind: I wonder how long the anticipated battery life will be? Will the battery progressively get weaker? How much to replace the battery pack?
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I see a lot of potential for battery powered vehicles, and for this ford lightning. A few questions come to mind: I wonder how long the anticipated battery life will be? Will the battery progressively get weaker? How much to replace the battery pack?
Depends on the company. We have 13 years of history with Tesla batteries, so will use them as an example. A Tesla battery pack is warranted for 8 years and typically 150K-200K miles (depending on model), where it is supposed to still have 90% capacity at the end of that time. From a pure lifespan perspective, a Tesla battery is supposed to last for between 300K to 500K miles....but most people will replace the battery before then so as not to lose too much range. Replacement cost will depend on what batteries cost by the time you need the replacement, but expect $10K-$20K for a new pack, depending on capacity model....as EV battery production ramps up this replacement cost should reduce over time. Most companies have designed the packs into the chassis, and have a method for replacing with minimal effort. Tesla even tried out the battery swap station idea, but abandoned it.
The jury is out on all the new EV companies and models regarding battery lifespan comparison. Tesla has been the master of the EV battery design. As a comparison, the Nissan Leaf battery is closer to 70%-80% capacity at the end of that 100K-150K time frame.... Will see how Ford/Rivian/Etc. do in terms of battery life span in comparison to Tesla.
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I see a lot of potential for battery powered vehicles, and for this ford lightning. A few questions come to mind: I wonder how long the anticipated battery life will be? Will the battery progressively get weaker? How much to replace the battery pack?
Fed mandate is currently 8yr/100Kmi warranty on battery/ev drivetrain I believe.
Batteries long term is unknown.
However it is worth mentioning that Ford specifically designed the batteries to be easily removed on the lightning. 6 or 8 bolts and it drops free and no driveshaft or exhaust in the way.
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My Zero has a 5 year warranty on the battery. I believe a battery pack is considered failed when its capacity drops below 80% of its rating.
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Good info, thanks to everyone who answered! :tup:
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Reservations for Chevy's E-Silverado should open up today.
GMs Electric Chevy Silverado Is Coming Today. Watch the Timing and the Features. -- Barrons.com
10:20 AM ET 1/5/22 | Dow Jones
Al Root
Today is a big day for General Motors. The company is expected to unveil the all-electric Chevy Silverado pickup truck at the consumer electronics show in Las Vegas.
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Yup,
GM reservation start today 1pm eastern. Pretty interesting coincidence that it happens the day before Lightning ordering starts.. Yeah no chance they have had it all ready and waiting to pull attention/media is frenzy off Ford's launch. Gotta love the games they all play.
Lightning order banks go live tomorrow. Build&price website went live yesterday. Not super "happy" with how they have packages and battery upgrade setup. Forcing thing on you for bigger battery and also not including some pretty normal items in base lariat package and forcing extend battery pack to get it.
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I see that the extended range battery is a $20K option for the F150-XLT but only $10k for the Lariat. But they don't give the battery size.
Might as well go for the Lariat @ $80,000
I wonder what the dealer fees will be?
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I see that the extended range battery is a $20K option for the F150-XLT but only $10k for the Lariat. But they don't give the battery size.
Might as well go for the Lariat @ $80,000
I wonder what the dealer fees will be?
Yeah they force xlt buyers to also add the $10k options package to get extended battery, ends up being $19500. Pretty crappy setup, some hope maybe it is bad website coding. Given the build and price does not even provide std features when you try to view details..., Honestly is rediculous to force big option group for battery upgrade.
Depends on dealer. Rumor was some around country are saying up to $30k ADM. Capitalism or not, dealer like that can ,.!.. off imho. Specially for something someone reserved. If it hit thier lot and they paid for it/ not reserved have at it, but hosing reservation holder ....
I reserved at Korum because they are my local. I have in writing no ADM. But they also have a huge reservation list. Meaning should see more allocations, but who knows. I reserved 6/4 and and around 240 on their list, they had over 100 on reveal day.
Fugate Ford as of Christmas week told me no ADM as well.
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400W solar panels are down to <$300 now. Charging an EV at home without use of the energy grid is getting more economical every year that technology advances. A 5kW system is large enough to charge the Lightning based on typical daily usage and sun availability in the PNW, and a 5kW complete solar power kit costs between $5k-$7K now. Installation will vary based on location, and how much of the install you can do yourself. But with a 20 year warranty, we're talking $300-$500/yr total ammortized....which is less expensive than my annual gasoline costs.....
Where are you getting those price quotes?? Have you tried to actually get somebody to install a system???
I just added 1kW to my off-grid system. I had the panels already installed on mounts.
All I needed was for a licensed electrician to hook up the panels to the existing system.
It took me TWO years to find a licensed electrician that could do the install and he took it as a learning project!!!
I paid him $3,000 to attach the panels to the existing system.
My THREE rich neighbors from the coast all installed 5kW systems. Cost for each install was $50,000.
EVERYBODY that has NEVER installed a solar-electric system always tells me how cheap they are!!!!
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400W solar panels are down to <$300 now. Charging an EV at home without use of the energy grid is getting more economical every year that technology advances. A 5kW system is large enough to charge the Lightning based on typical daily usage and sun availability in the PNW, and a 5kW complete solar power kit costs between $5k-$7K now. Installation will vary based on location, and how much of the install you can do yourself. But with a 20 year warranty, we're talking $300-$500/yr total ammortized....which is less expensive than my annual gasoline costs.....
Where are you getting those price quotes?? Have you tried to actually get somebody to install a system???
I just added 1kW to my off-grid system. I had the panels already installed on mounts.
All I needed was for a licensed electrician to hook up the panels to the existing system.
It took me TWO years to find a licensed electrician that could do the install and he took it as a learning project!!!
I paid him $3,000 to attach the panels to the existing system.
My THREE rich neighbors from the coast all installed 5kW systems. Cost for each install was $50,000.
EVERYBODY that has NEVER installed a solar-electric system always tells me how cheap they are!!!!
Oh, so you're supposed to have a licensed electrician hook them up. :rolleyes: I've heard some people just do that themselves.
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Install the panels, apply for an inspection, fix anything wrong and get signed off.
Finding someone to do anything right about now is not going to be easy or cheap.
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Install the panels, apply for an inspection, fix anything wrong and get signed off.
Finding someone to do anything right about now is not going to be easy or cheap.
I have a professional skill set.
If I wanted to be an electrician I would have passed on my education and would have joined the union instead. Too old to learn new tricks!!
I don't want to be an electrician. Mine came pretty cheap at $95/hour charge.
Knowing a trade these days is worth more than a professional degree in many cases.
I am convinced it is because the trades offer "better value" for the fees charged.
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Install the panels, apply for an inspection, fix anything wrong and get signed off.
Finding someone to do anything right about now is not going to be easy or cheap.
I have a professional skill set.
If I wanted to be an electrician I would have passed on my education and would have joined the union instead. Too old to learn new tricks!!
I don't want to be an electrician. Mine came pretty cheap at $95/hour charge.
Knowing a trade these days is worth more than a professional degree in many cases.
I am convinced it is because the trades offer "better value" for the fees charged.
You complained about the wholesale systems I quoted (wholesale but ship direct to consumer as a complete kit with all instructions, diagrams, components, etc.). Those costs were from last spring, and didn't include installation. Some of us are more handy than others.....
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So waves one and two in the books. Korum said they got one wave 1 allocation.
I have not asked about wave 2. Probably changing dealers since they refuse to offer the Ford options plan. One excuse after another, including "we don't have the documents for it". Sorry, that is pretty lame when you use your own laziness to justify not offering your customer a valuable financing option created by Ford to help the consumer.
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So waves one and two in the books. Korum said they got one wave 1 allocation.
I have not asked about wave 2. Probably changing dealers since they refuse to offer the Ford options plan. One excuse after another, including "we don't have the documents for it". Sorry, that is pretty lame when you use your own laziness to justify not offering your customer a valuable financing option created by Ford to help the consumer.
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The cynic in me wonders if Ford's financing has limits on how far above MSRP they will finance.
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Possibly, though Korum and fugate have both committed to msrp pricing to me.
Ford did put a memo to dealers about pricing, but it was related to dealers charging extra to place an order.
As excited as I am and wanting to order I am starting to think it might be good to wait. Just for the inevitable bugs and to let someone else take the depreciation hit. Drove a mach-e 2weeks ago, really liked it. Know some have had problems on 1st launch and still. Lightning should not given chassis is established.
Has me wondering what the used market will be in 2yrs when the mach-e are coming off lease... Could be great time to get one.
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Hopefully we are in a more normal time in 2 years.
Wait, I said that 2 years ago...
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Possibly, though Korum and fugate have both committed to msrp pricing to me.
Ford did put a memo to dealers about pricing, but it was related to dealers charging extra to place an order.
As excited as I am and wanting to order I am starting to think it might be good to wait. Just for the inevitable bugs and to let someone else take the depreciation hit. Drove a mach-e 2weeks ago, really liked it. Know some have had problems on 1st launch and still. Lightning should not given chassis is established.
Has me wondering what the used market will be in 2yrs when the mach-e are coming off lease... Could be great time to get one.
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2 weird recalls on the Mach E's so far and a bunch of software updates. If you're the type that will get excited about recalls, the Mach E is probably not for you at this point. Windshield and pano roof adhesion issues. The glass comes out, epoxy primer gets applied and the windshield and roof get put back in. It takes us about 4-5 days to get it done. We've got a couple partner body shops doing them. There's also a software update recall that addresses multiple modules with multiple issues all at once. We're not really seeing any issues with them otherwise.
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So waves one and two in the books. Korum said they got one wave 1 allocation.
I have not asked about wave 2. Probably changing dealers since they refuse to offer the Ford options plan. One excuse after another, including "we don't have the documents for it". Sorry, that is pretty lame when you use your own laziness to justify not offering your customer a valuable financing option created by Ford to help the consumer.
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The cynic in me wonders if Ford's financing has limits on how far above MSRP they will finance.
Ford is being pretty tight re: second stickers. Dealers were pulling creating fake orders for Bronco then cancelling them once they showed up. They'd put huge second stickers on them and sell them on the lot and people would pay for them. Ford caught on and made it so dealers can't sell a new bronco to anyone unless they have a reservation # for one now. I assume the same will hold true for Lightning.
We're selling everything new at MSRP with no haggling. Company policy. The price is the price. Ford plans like X plan or whatever would trump that I guess. We don't sell a lot of new vehicles, but we don't do second stickers either.
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Wow, fun stuff there.
How are the dealers doing in general? Sounds like volume may be way down but per vehicle profit way up?
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Recalls don't get me wound up, and none seem too significant honestly. But at same time the cost of new vehicles it makes some sense to let others deal with new vehicle bugs etc. I would not be happy paying monthly lease/loan plus insurance with no vehicle to drive for the month. Then there is new vehicle depreciation. Make lot of sense to wait out the initial rush and wait for lease turn ins...
Now if I lost my modded '13 SHO (that the entire family loves) I would be looking at a MACH-E GT AWD as the replacement. Torn on std gt or PE. I drove a premium 2weeks ago and it was not quite equal in power to my sho, so I would opt up to GT at least.
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Wow, fun stuff there.
How are the dealers doing in general? Sounds like volume may be way down but per vehicle profit way up?
I can't speak for others but yes, new car profitability is very good. I'm with a luxury brand and essentially due to low volume available you pay msrp abd that's it. Used cars of course boomimg due to lack of new car inventory. Imo, it's a great time to trade a used vehicle in on a new due to your inflated equity in the used car. Just my :twocents:.
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Wow, fun stuff there.
How are the dealers doing in general? Sounds like volume may be way down but per vehicle profit way up?
New vehicle pricing is normal. Volume is down because inventory is down.
Used car volume and inventory are up as are prices, but we're having to pay more for them so I'm not sure profits are way up.
Selling cars is a struggle right now. Example...I have a really good service customer who wants to buy 4 new F350 chassis cabs. A couple hundred thousand dollars worth of trucks. We can't get them. Nobody can. 10-12 months we're being told.
We have zero new trucks on the ground here. We've got some new Escapes and Ecosports, but that's about it. Put it this way....we've got used cars in our showroom to fill holes.
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A higher trade in value just helps the offset of the huge increase price of the new vehicle , new prices are just stupid right now so I’ll keep driving my ‘11 Tacoma with 318,000 miles until prices get back to being realistic
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A higher trade in value just helps the offset of the huge increase price of the new vehicle , new prices are just stupid right now so I’ll keep driving my ‘11 Tacoma with 318,000 miles until prices get back to being realistic
All I meant was new vehicle prices aren’t inflated due to shortages. New vehicles are expensive but they’re not jacking prices based on demand.
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Don't they usually sell for under MSRP in normal times? Seems like MSRP is a good deal these days if you can find something in stock.
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All I meant was new vehicle prices aren’t inflated due to shortages. New vehicles are expensive but they’re not jacking prices based on demand.
Not sure about that. I've been looking at new GMC trucks, and the dealers are not shy about posting right on the ads that they are pricing around 5k over MSRP. It wasn't that long ago that dealers sold trucks somewhere around 4-5-6k below MSRP.
Unless you are just talking about Fords..........
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USED trucks are Jacked up due to shortages.. My 2020 Cummins would sell for +10k$ probably. :bash:
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All I meant was new vehicle prices aren’t inflated due to shortages. New vehicles are expensive but they’re not jacking prices based on demand.
Not sure about that. I've been looking at new GMC trucks, and the dealers are not shy about posting right on the ads that they are pricing around 5k over MSRP. It wasn't that long ago that dealers sold trucks somewhere around 4-5-6k below MSRP.
Unless you are just talking about Fords..........
I work for a nationwide company. Prices are set, nationwide, and there's no haggling....but we don't second sticker either.
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Don't they usually sell for under MSRP in normal times? Seems like MSRP is a good deal these days if you can find something in stock.
Nobody's doing deals because there aren't any vehicles available. There's no reason for us to sell trucks at less than MSRP. I can't speak for all dealers whether or not they're marking up prices. We don't mark prices up on new vehicles. Maybe if we ever get an unsold '22 Raptor we might mark it up, or a GT500 or something like that. Regular pickups, etc. MSRP.
Ford has X plan, D plan, etc. There's no way around that if you're eligible for those plan prices you get those prices.
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All I meant was new vehicle prices aren’t inflated due to shortages. New vehicles are expensive but they’re not jacking prices based on demand.
Not sure about that. I've been looking at new GMC trucks, and the dealers are not shy about posting right on the ads that they are pricing around 5k over MSRP. It wasn't that long ago that dealers sold trucks somewhere around 4-5-6k below MSRP.
Unless you are just talking about Fords..........
I work for a nationwide company. Prices are set, nationwide, and there's no haggling....but we don't second sticker.
So, you are talking about the company you work for not jacking prices based on demand........not auto dealers in general?
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Don't they usually sell for under MSRP in normal times? Seems like MSRP is a good deal these days if you can find something in stock.
Nobody's doing deals because there aren't any vehicles available. There's no reason for us to sell trucks at less than MSRP. I can't speak for all dealers whether or not they're marking up prices. We don't mark prices up on new vehicles. Maybe if we ever get an unsold '22 Raptor we might mark it up, or a GT500 or something like that. Regular pickups, etc. MSRP.
Ford has X plan, D plan, etc. There's no way around that if you're eligible for those plan prices you get those prices.
Do you know if your dealer ship will offer/accept the Options plan on Ford approved vehicles?
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All I meant was new vehicle prices aren’t inflated due to shortages. New vehicles are expensive but they’re not jacking prices based on demand.
Not sure about that. I've been looking at new GMC trucks, and the dealers are not shy about posting right on the ads that they are pricing around 5k over MSRP. It wasn't that long ago that dealers sold trucks somewhere around 4-5-6k below MSRP.
Unless you are just talking about Fords..........
I work for a nationwide company. Prices are set, nationwide, and there's no haggling....but we don't second sticker.
So, you are talking about the company you work for not jacking prices based on demand........not auto dealers in general?
I certainly can’t speak for all car dealers. They’re mostly all independent dealers and privately owned businesses who make their own rules because they can. Maybe the way I should word it differently would be that the manufacturers are not raising MSRP’s on vehicles in these scenarios.
What another dealership does is up to them. With the exception of Tesla, the dealers are not owned or controlled by the Manufacturer. They can list a truck for $50k over MSRP if they want to. It’s not their fault if someone decides to pay for it.
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Don't they usually sell for under MSRP in normal times? Seems like MSRP is a good deal these days if you can find something in stock.
Nobody's doing deals because there aren't any vehicles available. There's no reason for us to sell trucks at less than MSRP. I can't speak for all dealers whether or not they're marking up prices. We don't mark prices up on new vehicles. Maybe if we ever get an unsold '22 Raptor we might mark it up, or a GT500 or something like that. Regular pickups, etc. MSRP.
Ford has X plan, D plan, etc. There's no way around that if you're eligible for those plan prices you get those prices.
Do you know if your dealer ship will offer/accept the Options plan on Ford approved vehicles?
No clue. I don’t even know what that is.
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Do you know if your dealer ship will offer/accept the Options plan on Ford approved vehicles?
No clue. I don’t even know what that is.
Options plan (to paraphrase) is a Lease option for the Mach-E and Lightning that gives the Leasee the ability to get the Federal EV Tax credit. Normal lease Ford or the dealer (I am not sure which) gets the credit, not the Leasee.
https://www.ford.com/finance/finance-options/ford-options/?fbclid=IwAR3B_8S3-3BbgMYcutmcLBtxk8BQ5oC2Cp1pNKDS7t2qMhytc6DbYgIW0-E
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Do you know if your dealer ship will offer/accept the Options plan on Ford approved vehicles?
No clue. I don’t even know what that is.
Options plan (to paraphrase) is a Lease option for the Mach-E and Lightning that gives the Leasee the ability to get the Federal EV Tax credit. Normal lease Ford or the dealer (I am not sure which) gets the credit, not the Leasee.
https://www.ford.com/finance/finance-options/ford-options/?fbclid=IwAR3B_8S3-3BbgMYcutmcLBtxk8BQ5oC2Cp1pNKDS7t2qMhytc6DbYgIW0-E
[/quote]
I’ll ask the sales side tomorrow. I try to avoid them as much as possible.
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Do you know if your dealer ship will offer/accept the Options plan on Ford approved vehicles?
No clue. I don’t even know what that is.
Options plan (to paraphrase) is a Lease option for the Mach-E and Lightning that gives the Leasee the ability to get the Federal EV Tax credit. Normal lease Ford or the dealer (I am not sure which) gets the credit, not the Leasee.
https://www.ford.com/finance/finance-options/ford-options/?fbclid=IwAR3B_8S3-3BbgMYcutmcLBtxk8BQ5oC2Cp1pNKDS7t2qMhytc6DbYgIW0-E
I’ll ask the sales side tomorrow. I try to avoid them as much as possible.
Hahaaa I think many people do.
Sorry I messed up the quote chain, tried to trim it down and somehow got off by one. Should be better now.
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Do you know if your dealer ship will offer/accept the Options plan on Ford approved vehicles?
No clue. I don’t even know what that is.
Options plan (to paraphrase) is a Lease option for the Mach-E and Lightning that gives the Leasee the ability to get the Federal EV Tax credit. Normal lease Ford or the dealer (I am not sure which) gets the credit, not the Leasee.
https://www.ford.com/finance/finance-options/ford-options/?fbclid=IwAR3B_8S3-3BbgMYcutmcLBtxk8BQ5oC2Cp1pNKDS7t2qMhytc6DbYgIW0-E
I’ll ask the sales side tomorrow. I try to avoid them as much as possible.
Hahaaa I think many people do.
Sorry I messed up the quote chain, tried to trim it down and somehow got off by one. Should be better now.
@lamrith
We accept that options plan you mentioned.
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https://www.thedrive.com/news/dealers-who-flip-ford-f-150-lightning-demo-trucks-face-25k-fine?fbclid=IwAR0lBE-WQfqE_uZ2lV49HmcUrGOCjGUUnoc0D3rFipfls8w6TJ2reBB_GSc
Dealers Who Flip Ford F-150 Lightning Demo Trucks Face $25K Fine
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https://www.thedrive.com/news/dealers-who-flip-ford-f-150-lightning-demo-trucks-face-25k-fine?fbclid=IwAR0lBE-WQfqE_uZ2lV49HmcUrGOCjGUUnoc0D3rFipfls8w6TJ2reBB_GSc
Dealers Who Flip Ford F-150 Lightning Demo Trucks Face $25K Fine
Does any dealership actually have a demo truck?
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Trucks have been deemed ok to sell based on what I have been seeing. So Ford is supposed to be shipping now to dealers. Not sure if that will just be demo/mannequin rigs, customer orders or both. But soon they should be at dealers to drool on.
Based on videos from some owner events it sounds like they are heat governed like the MME and pull power after a certain amount of WOT.
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https://www.thedrive.com/news/dealers-who-flip-ford-f-150-lightning-demo-trucks-face-25k-fine?fbclid=IwAR0lBE-WQfqE_uZ2lV49HmcUrGOCjGUUnoc0D3rFipfls8w6TJ2reBB_GSc
Dealers Who Flip Ford F-150 Lightning Demo Trucks Face $25K Fine
Does any dealership actually have a demo truck?
I haven’t seen one yet.
I think this probably all stemmed from the Bronco cluster.
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Certainly looks better than a Tesla truck that don't exist. I would hate to see what the aftermarket price will be once a few of them get out.
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That huge "frunk" up front just looks so bizarre it is actually cool :hello:
But I would love to have that space, without have to deal with the EV part, :chuckle:
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That one got your name on it Jackelope?
I have not seen one in the wild yet, but they are around. Guy on a FB group got his red one from Fugate last week.
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220622/0fe8727f8c3580238e556c8a2d2b21dd.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220622/e71d32b537e86be34f2f796134aea870.jpg)
That one got your name on it Jackelope?
I have not seen one in the wild yet, but they are around. Guy on a FB group got his red one from Fugate last week.
We have 700 reservations for them. We’ve been allocated 2 so far.
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One will not have my name on it ever I don’t think. Maybe a powerboost, but not a lightning.
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I saw a post on Reddit the other day of a window sticker for 130k for one, it was 65k for the truck with a 65k market adjustment line. I’m not sure how many they will sell with that kind of mark up.
I do like the looks of the rivian truck and SUV but can’t get away from the diesel truck, I could see getting one of the rivian SUV’s for the wife since she is a stay at home mom but haven’t seen much for charging rivian around here.
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I saw a post on Reddit the other day of a window sticker for 130k for one, it was 65k for the truck with a 65k market adjustment line. I’m not sure how many they will sell with that kind of mark up.
I do like the looks of the rivian truck and SUV but can’t get away from the diesel truck, I could see getting one of the rivian SUV’s for the wife since she is a stay at home mom but haven’t seen much for charging rivian around here.
It gets better. I have ben seeing news the last few days that Ford is allowing Dealers to force buyers to sign a no sale agreement. Meaning You placed your order, waited, paid whatever the dealer forced you to, and you are not allowed to sell your vehicle for a year. You have to sell it back to the dealer, so they get to make all the profit.
https://www.autoblog.com/2022/06/22/ford-f150-lightning-markups-no-resale-policy/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAGximMvdTnfgbksduFinmTqIaN5V5MUgvXZ81L0B0lkHcA0KWYblxDoik3sYytGeTdbtA2_v51oLcQont0j5QschnmOxkbhgmM23c2lGXQBRkK56cRveDlCjVozYd0I1BGMEct5mEj8-ApHZZNjWMoRLy3XhG43MCTPjiSKLlhgp
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It looks :puke: :puke:
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Already recalled.
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Already recalled.
Small recall for TPMS (air pressure monitoring system) on 20-22 inch tires.
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I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
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Already recalled.
Dozens of recalls on dozens of vehicle makes and manufacturers. I don't even blink at recalls anymore.
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I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
3 motor Tesla Cyber truck has an estimated towing range of 250 miles and a tow capacity of 14k pounds.
https://tractionlife.com/cybertruck-towing-capacity-and-payload-specs/
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I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
3 motor Tesla Cyber truck has an estimated towing range of 250 miles and a tow capacity of 14k pounds.
https://tractionlife.com/cybertruck-towing-capacity-and-payload-specs/
If you showed up in the Methow valley in one of those Tesla Cyber trucks, Jingles and his buddies would be throwing rocks at you !!
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The big difference between the Ford and the Tesla is the Ford actually exists. :chuckle:
There are electric semi trucks and commercial delivery trucks in advanced testing right now, I would imagine that it could trickle down to the consumer market but I wonder if the manufacturers are unsure what the demand would be. Most of the guys around this site seem to say they would never own one. It may be the market for electric trucks is mostly short easy tows and around town stuff.
I tow a 3k boat 35 miles roundtrip, it would work for everything but my hunting trips and long road trips as is. I think with the capacity they have right now, the bigger question is how fast can they make charging and how many charger locations can they install? I wouldn't mind two stopping MT if it was 15-20 minutes a stop, but 3-4 stops and some stops at an hour is a no-go.
It's only a matter of time.
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I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
3 motor Tesla Cyber truck has an estimated towing range of 250 miles and a tow capacity of 14k pounds.
https://tractionlife.com/cybertruck-towing-capacity-and-payload-specs/
I think they’re being pretty optimistic on that, unless they’re only considering a flat deck trailer
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I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
3 motor Tesla Cyber truck has an estimated towing range of 250 miles and a tow capacity of 14k pounds.
https://tractionlife.com/cybertruck-towing-capacity-and-payload-specs/
I think they’re being pretty optimistic on that, unless they’re only considering a flat deck trailer
with a tailwind.
Elon has never had a concept vehicle he did not overpromise and under deliver.. Plus honestly it is hideous.
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The side windows are impact resistant too. :chuckle:
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I saw a TFL video this morning where they towed a 6,000 travel trailer on the freeway with the lightning. It went 86 miles on a full charge. It’s not meant for long range towing but I wonder if there’ll ever be an electric pickup that can make a trip with a trailer?
3 motor Tesla Cyber truck has an estimated towing range of 250 miles and a tow capacity of 14k pounds.
https://tractionlife.com/cybertruck-towing-capacity-and-payload-specs/
I think they’re being pretty optimistic on that, unless they’re only considering a flat deck trailer
with a tailwind.
Elon has never had a concept vehicle he did not overpromise and under deliver.. Plus honestly it is hideous.
It is really ugly. It looks like it was designed by a drunk third grader