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Author Topic: Oregon lawmakers move to conceal gun permit records  (Read 2681 times)

Offline KillzElk

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Oregon lawmakers move to conceal gun permit records
« on: February 22, 2009, 02:08:50 PM »
By BRAD CAIN, Associated Press Writer

SALEM, Ore. (AP) -- Sheriffs around Oregon have been sending an unusual letter to holders of concealed weapons permits with this message: If you don't want the public to know you've got a permit, we'll try to help you out.

The letter from the sheriffs says newspapers and others are trying to get lists of people who have concealed handgun permits, sparking a legal challenge that's pending in the Oregon Court of Appeals.

(kgw.com graphic)

And as the appeals court mulls the issue, Oregon lawmakers are pursuing legislation to take those records completely out of public view by prohibiting their release under the Oregon public records law.

The bill to close those records has broad support, with half of the members of the Legislature, both Democrats and Republicans, signing on as co-sponsors.

Should concealed weapons permit records be public?

Yes

No

Unsure


It's the latest turn in a dispute over whether the public should have the right to know who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon and whether permit holders have a right to privacy based on personal security considerations.

Washington County Sheriff Rob Gordon was the first sheriff to send letters to concealed handgun license holders last fall, asking 10,000 of them whether they want their names made public if it is requested as an Oregon public record.

Among the thousands of responses he's received, "only two people have expressed a desire to have their application and personal information released to the public," Gordon said.

Other sheriffs around Oregon have gotten similar responses, he said.

"The reaction was very strong," Gordon said. "A lot of people were incredulous. They asked me, 'Why in the world would anybody want that information to be public?' "

Open government advocates say, however, that those records have always been public and that Oregonians should have the right to check to see who is getting concealed weapons permits from local sheriffs.

"Let's say you have a neighbor who is acting irrationally, and maybe even threatening you. Shouldn't you be able to find out if he has a concealed weapons permit?" said Judson Randall, president of Open Oregon and a former senior editor at The Oregonian.

A lower court ruling in the dispute came after the Mail Tribune in Medford requested names of concealed handgun license holders as a public record. The Jackson County sheriff's office refused the request on grounds that the records are not public if they could reveal a person's security measures or weaknesses.

The Jackson County Circuit Court ruled in April 2008 that individuals must specify that they don't want any personal information released. If not, their names are public record, the court said.

Even before the state appeals court has heard arguments in that case, Gordon and other sheriffs have joined with 45 legislators to try to end the debate by promoting House Bill 2727 to prohibit concealed weapons license information from being publicly disclosed.

State Rep. Kim Thatcher, one of the chief sponsors of the bill, said public release of that information "defeats the whole point of having a concealed weapons permit."

"This is a safety issue for a lot of these people," the Keizer Republican said. "Revealing their records unbeknownst to them could attract stalkers, identity thieves and people who could otherwise do them harm."

Besides, she said, the 109,000 Oregonians who have the concealed weapons licenses are law-abiding citizens who have undergone background checks and firearms training to get those permits and there's no good reason to make their records public.

Leading gun owner groups, including the Oregon Firearms Federation and the National Rifle Association, are strongly backing Thatcher's bill.

"People get these licenses to protect their own security and to protect their loved ones. It makes them uneasy to think that it's public knowledge that they have firearms in their homes," said Rod Harder, the Oregon consultant for the National Rifle Association of America Inc.

However, an open records advocate said supporters of the bill have made no compelling case for further chipping away at Oregon's public records law by closing off the gun permit records from public disclosure.

"What is the privacy interest in this case? What abuse has occurred as a result of these records being open?" said Tim Gleason, dean of the University of Oregon's School of Journalism.

Those records should remain open as a practical safety matter, Gleason added.

"What if you're an abuse victim, and you want to know if the person who's abusing you is carrying a concealed weapon?" he said. "That seems like a legitimate question to ask."

The opposition of most sheriffs to publicly releasing those records is not a new development.

A statewide audit of public agencies, conducted in 2005 by The Associated Press and the Society of Professional Journalists, showed widespread resistance to requests to see concealed handgun permit applications, with access granted in only eight of 36 counties.

Offline ICEMAN

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Re: Oregon lawmakers move to conceal gun permit records
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 03:39:27 PM »
Wow. A push for a law I actually support.  :dunno:

Great post, thanks KillzElk.
molṑn labé

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Offline FrankDown

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Re: Oregon lawmakers move to conceal gun permit records
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2009, 07:44:58 PM »
The arguments for releasing that information is pretty weak.  An irrational neighbor is jsut that, he is just as liekly to attack you with a weedeater as a pistol.  If you are aafraid, thats what a concealed carry permit is for.

Perhaps they should give the inquiring party a copy of the concealed carry application instead of the permit holders information.

Offline KillzElk

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Re: Oregon lawmakers move to conceal gun permit records
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2009, 04:32:13 PM »
Update:

An Oregon court ruling could force sheriffs offices statewide to release full lists of all the people in the state with concealed carry gun permits.
Watch KGW report on gun permits

Some permit holders say the information is private. They worry if the permits are made public they could become targets of thieves or criminals.

This all started in Medford. The newspaper there, The Mail Tribune, sued the Jackson County sheriff's office for the release of the full list of concealed carry permit holders.

The Jackson County case stems from the 2007 case of a Medford teacher with a concealed handgun license who wanted to bring a handgun onto school property for personal security reasons.

The sheriff refused, claiming that information was private. A Jackson County circuit court judge disagreed and ordered the sheriff to release the names, ruling that people have to document that the license is for security reasons to avoid public records law.

And now other counties are warning permit holders they might have to do the same.

Washington County's sheriff will ask 10,000 holders of concealed handgun licenses whether they want their names made public if it is requested as an Oregon public record.

Sheriff Rob Gordon said he believes that people obtain these licenses as a security measure, which would keep their names private.

On Friday, Washington County license holders will get letters asking them if they obtained the license for security reasons, and whether they want their information kept confidential.

Michael Knoetig is considered an expert on Oregon's concealed handgun laws. He even teaches a course on the laws and says he’s had to schedule extra classes -- enrollment has doubled.

Knoetig also says he himself carries a weapon.

"It's a subcompact gun. It is small enough to go in the pocket," he says.

No one's more concerned about the pending court ruling, which could require sheriff's deputies to release full lists of all concealed carry permit holders.

"Why does anybody out there need to know that I can carry a firearm?" Knoetig asks.

Washington County sheriffs say they will continue the fight to keep the records private.

“We have received requests in the past which we have denied because we feel it is protected information," Sgt. Vance Stimler said.

The sheriff will send a letter to each permit holder asking if they want their information released.

“Most of them were in favor of keeping their information protected," Stimler said. "If they feel the need to protect themselves and be secure than they should have the right to have that information protected."

But the court's decision could force the sheriff to release it anyway, and Stimler acknowledges his office must follow those orders. And Knoetig says that means criminals or others would know there’s a gun in the house.

"If a bad person wanted to steal guns he would already know Michael's house maybe is a good place to go," Knoetig said.

Many worry the ruling will make targets of those who've followed the law in carrying a gun.

The Jackson County sheriff has appealed the decision to the Oregon Court of Appeals, which will likely hear the case next spring. It could order the records released then.

If each applicant wants his or her information private, then Oregon law will allow Washington County to reject a request for names of license holders, Stimler said.

The Multnomah County Sheriff's Office will confirm that a person has a concealed handgun license if someone calls with a name, said Deputy Paul McRedmond, public information officer. They approve public record requests for general release of names on a case-by-case basis.

In Clackamas County, the sheriff's office will release the information for properly made requests, said Detective Jim Strovink, public information officer.

Both counties are considering Washington County's idea and plan to discuss whether they will implement something similar.

KGW Reporter Jack Penning contributed to this report.

Offline KillzElk

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Re: Oregon lawmakers move to conceal gun permit records
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2009, 04:35:14 PM »
 Sheriffs around Oregon have been sending an unusual letter to holders of concealed weapons permits with this message: If you don't want the public to know you've got a permit, we'll try to help you out.

The letter from the sheriffs says newspapers and others are trying to get lists of people who have concealed handgun permits, sparking a legal challenge that's pending in the Oregon Court of Appeals.

And as the appeals court mulls the issue, Oregon lawmakers are pursuing legislation to take those records completely out of public view by prohibiting their release under the Oregon public records law.

The bill to close those records has broad support, with half of the members of the Legislature, both Democrats and Republicans, signing on as co-sponsors.

It's the latest turn in a dispute over whether the public should have the right to know who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon and whether permit holders have a right to privacy based on personal security considerations.

Jude Amond learned to handle a gun three years ago, after being mugged in downtown Portland.

"It made me realize I needed to learn more about self protection," she said.

Concealing a weapon and carrying it, without anyone else’s knowledge, helped build her self confidence after the mugging.

Amond said firearms have become something of a hobby for her. But efforts to make the concealed weapon permits part of public record make her “uncomfortable.”

"The majority of people who have concealed handgun licenses are the safest people around … and I think giving out their names and addresses just opens them up to problems from the community," Amond said.

Amond's husband agreed, saying she couldn't "carry a cop around with her" and that the weapon amounted to secondary form of insurance.

Sheriffs poll concealed weapon permit holders
Washington County Sheriff Rob Gordon was the first sheriff to send letters to concealed handgun license holders last fall, asking 10,000 of them whether they want their names made public if it is requested as an Oregon public record.

Among the thousands of responses he's received, "only two people have expressed a desire to have their application and personal information released to the public," Gordon said.

Other sheriffs around Oregon have gotten similar responses, he said.

"The reaction was very strong," Gordon said. "A lot of people were incredulous. They asked me, 'Why in the world would anybody want that information to be public?' "

Open government advocates say, however, that those records have always been public and that Oregonians should have the right to check to see who is getting concealed weapons permits from local sheriffs.

"Let's say you have a neighbor who is acting irrationally, and maybe even threatening you. Shouldn't you be able to find out if he has a concealed weapons permit?" said Judson Randall, president of Open Oregon and a former senior editor at The Oregonian.

A lower court ruling in the dispute came after the Mail Tribune in Medford requested names of concealed handgun license holders as a public record. The Jackson County sheriff's office refused the request on grounds that the records are not public if they could reveal a person's security measures or weaknesses.

The Jackson County Circuit Court ruled in April 2008 that individuals must specify that they don't want any personal information released. If not, their names are public record, the court said.

Even before the state appeals court has heard arguments in that case, Gordon and other sheriffs have joined with 45 legislators to try to end the debate by promoting House Bill 2727 to prohibit concealed weapons license information from being publicly disclosed.

Lawmaker: 'It's a safety issue'
State Rep. Kim Thatcher, one of the chief sponsors of the bill, said public release of that information "defeats the whole point of having a concealed weapons permit."

"This is a safety issue for a lot of these people," the Keizer Republican said. "Revealing their records unbeknownst to them could attract stalkers, identity thieves and people who could otherwise do them harm."

Besides, she said, the 109,000 Oregonians who have the concealed weapons licenses are law-abiding citizens who have undergone background checks and firearms training to get those permits and there's no good reason to make their records public.

Leading gun owner groups, including the Oregon Firearms Federation and the National Rifle Association, are strongly backing Thatcher's bill.

"People get these licenses to protect their own security and to protect their loved ones. It makes them uneasy to think that it's public knowledge that they have firearms in their homes," said Rod Harder, the Oregon consultant for the National Rifle Association of America Inc.

However, an open records advocate said supporters of the bill have made no compelling case for further chipping away at Oregon's public records law by closing off the gun permit records from public disclosure.

"What is the privacy interest in this case? What abuse has occurred as a result of these records being open?" said Tim Gleason, dean of the University of Oregon's School of Journalism.

Those records should remain open as a practical safety matter, Gleason added.

"What if you're an abuse victim, and you want to know if the person who's abusing you is carrying a concealed weapon?" he said. "That seems like a legitimate question to ask."

The opposition of most sheriffs to publicly releasing those records is not a new development.

A statewide audit of public agencies, conducted in 2005 by The Associated Press and the Society of Professional Journalists, showed widespread resistance to requests to see concealed handgun permit applications, with access granted in only eight of 36 counties.

Offline ICEMAN

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Re: Oregon lawmakers move to conceal gun permit records
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2009, 07:53:08 PM »
Killzelk, thanks for posting.
molṑn labé

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Kill your television....do it now.....

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Offline rasbo

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Re: Oregon lawmakers move to conceal gun permit records
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2009, 08:01:11 PM »
cudos on the sheriffs dept and the supporters, ;)

Offline KillzElk

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Re: Oregon lawmakers move to conceal gun permit records
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2009, 11:31:33 PM »
Oregon lawmakers move to conceal gun permit records
02 23 2009, 8:24

Everyone needs to contact their State Reresentatives and tell them you don't think irresponsible papers like the Arkansas Times should be able to publish lists that contain full name and addresses of every concealed carry license holder in Arkansas.

Oregon permit holders are in a similar battle right now.

This from KGW, "Sheriffs around Oregon have been sending an unusual letter to holders of concealed weapons permits with this message: If you don't want the public to know you've got a permit, we'll try to help you out.

The letter from the sheriffs says newspapers and others are trying to get lists of people who have concealed handgun permits, sparking a legal challenge that's pending in the Oregon Court of Appeals.

And as the appeals court mulls the issue, Oregon lawmakers are pursuing legislation to take those records completely out of public view by prohibiting their release under the Oregon public records law.

The bill to close those records has broad support, with half of the members of the Legislature, both Democrats and Republicans, signing on as co-sponsors.

It's the latest turn in a dispute over whether the public should have the right to know who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon and whether permit holders have a right to privacy based on personal security considerations.

Washington County Sheriff Rob Gordon was the first sheriff to send letters to concealed handgun license holders last fall, asking 10,000 of them whether they want their names made public if it is requested as an Oregon public record.

Among the thousands of responses he's received, "only two people have expressed a desire to have their application and personal information released to the public," Gordon said.

Other sheriffs around Oregon have gotten similar responses, he said.

"The reaction was very strong," Gordon said. "A lot of people were incredulous. They asked me, 'Why in the world would anybody want that information to be public?' "

Open government advocates say, however, that those records have always been public and that Oregonians should have the right to check to see who is getting concealed weapons permits from local sheriffs.

"Let's say you have a neighbor who is acting irrationally, and maybe even threatening you. Shouldn't you be able to find out if he has a concealed weapons permit?" said Judson Randall, president of Open Oregon and a former senior editor at The Oregonian.

A lower court ruling in the dispute came after the Mail Tribune in Medford requested names of concealed handgun license holders as a public record. The Jackson County sheriff's office refused the request on grounds that the records are not public if they could reveal a person's security measures or weaknesses.

The Jackson County Circuit Court ruled in April 2008 that individuals must specify that they don't want any personal information released. If not, their names are public record, the court said.

Even before the state appeals court has heard arguments in that case, Gordon and other sheriffs have joined with 45 legislators to try to end the debate by promoting House Bill 2727 to prohibit concealed weapons license information from being publicly disclosed.

State Rep. Kim Thatcher, one of the chief sponsors of the bill, said public release of that information "defeats the whole point of having a concealed weapons permit."

"This is a safety issue for a lot of these people," the Keizer Republican said. "Revealing their records unbeknownst to them could attract stalkers, identity thieves and people who could otherwise do them harm."

Besides, she said, the 109,000 Oregonians who have the concealed weapons licenses are law-abiding citizens who have undergone background checks and firearms training to get those permits and there's no good reason to make their records public.

Leading gun owner groups, including the Oregon Firearms Federation and the National Rifle Association, are strongly backing Thatcher's bill.

"People get these licenses to protect their own security and to protect their loved ones. It makes them uneasy to think that it's public knowledge that they have firearms in their homes," said Rod Harder, the Oregon consultant for the National Rifle Association of America Inc.

However, an open records advocate said supporters of the bill have made no compelling case for further chipping away at Oregon's public records law by closing off the gun permit records from public disclosure.

"What is the privacy interest in this case? What abuse has occurred as a result of these records being open?" said Tim Gleason, dean of the University of Oregon's School of Journalism.

Those records should remain open as a practical safety matter, Gleason added.

"What if you're an abuse victim, and you want to know if the person who's abusing you is carrying a concealed weapon?" he said. "That seems like a legitimate question to ask."

The opposition of most sheriffs to publicly releasing those records is not a new development.

A statewide audit of public agencies, conducted in 2005 by The Associated Press and the Society of Professional Journalists, showed widespread resistance to requests to see concealed handgun permit applications, with access granted in only eight of 36 counties."

"What if you're an abuse victim, and you want to know if the person who's abusing you is carrying a concealed weapon?" Are you freaking kidding me?

First of all people who go through all the red tape and background searches to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon are not the type of people who "abuse" people. Secondly I think the more appropriate question should be, "what about the abused spouse who has an order of protection, gets a concealed weapons permit, moves, and suddenly has her full name and address published online?"

There can be no legitimate reason as far as the ARCCA see's it to publishing en mass the full names and addresses of permit holders other than to intimidate and harrass.

The ARCCA is going to work toward getting legislation passed that keeps this information confidential. Something like what Tennessee is doing.

There is not much time left in the session, and unless we let our legislators know en mass that we will not tolerate this it could be pushed untill next session and it could be an uphill battle.

Offline KillzElk

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Re: Oregon lawmakers move to conceal gun permit records
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2009, 11:35:48 PM »
Concealed Carry Privacy Bill HB 1623 Filed
02 25 2009, 16:06

I posted this an an update but thought it needed a post of its own.

This from KTHV, "An Arkansas lawmaker wants to make the list of people with concealed handgun permits a secret, and punish those who publish the information.

Rep. Randy Stewart, D-Kirby, on Wednesday filed legislation that would make information on concealed-gun permit holders confidential and exempt from the state's open records law. Stewart, a former Olympic shooter who also is a concealed-carry permit instructor, proposed in the legislation that knowingly publishing the list be a misdemeanor punishable by up to $1,000 in fines and up to a year in prison.

Twenty-six states currently keep concealed-carry permit records confidential, according to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence."

Brummett pulls one of his usual contradictory editorials on the matter. I like how Max says he feels he did the right thing and would do it again but still admits that he took it down out of some legitimate safety concerns. Huh? Doesn't that kind of make our case for us?

Hey Brummett - you don't have "a right" to know who's carrying a concealed firearm. Period.

The whole purpose behind conceaeld carry is the fact that in a society in which the criminals dont know who's armed everyone benefits. The list was published by an irresponsible publication who's sole intent was to intimidate and harrass, with no consideration given to anyone on the list who might face retribution by criminals, employers or neighbors nor was any consideration given to people who have a need to remain secret such as private detectives, security personel, retired police officers, and battered women who have orders of protection against an abusive ex or boyfriend. This list was not published to illustrate a larger point about revocation rates, inconsistancies, or as a public vetting of the information contained therein. There can be no legitimate reason as far as the ARCCA see's it to publishing en mass the full names and addresses of permit holders.

In addition to that recently the Arkansas House killed a bill in committee that would have made the criminal records of public officials available to the public, I find it incomprehensible that our government officials would seek to hide the records of criminals but allow a far more law abiding segment of Arkansas society to be treated like registered sex offenders.

Again here is a link to the bill.

It was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.

Call your legislators, urge them to support HB 1623.

UPDATE - HB 1623 is on the agenda to be considered tomorrow.

 


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