Arizona....Whose in?

[3dvapor]

i think i have 14 points for elk,  but talking to other archery hunters last year they said the rut started the last week of the season, and the season starts even earlier this year. so im waiting until it resets back to the 14th for the start.  i dont know if thats smart or not considering they have recieved a ton of snow this year.

[Bigshooter]

I applied for points a couple weeks ago for elk.

[Elkstuffer]

I'm setting on 9 points for elk and 7 for pronghorn in AZ. Just bought points again this year. Another 2-3 years and I'll start actually putting into the draw. I dropped out of the WY sheep game last year. I have 11 points for moose now. Two more years and I'll cash those in for the Bighorn Mtns in north central WY. Don't you just love this time of the year......A ton of money going out and nothing coming back. It's only getting worse.

[TheHunt]

I just applied for elk in Arizona.  Utah just opened. 

[WAcoueshunter]

I probably have a better chance of drawin 9 in Arizona than I do a big bull hunt here in Washington.  Now thats pitiful.  

Actually you have an infinitely better chance of drawing a Blues rifle rut tag.  Romulus is right on the money...NR's have ZERO chance of drawing the primo AZ tags (Unit 9 included) unless you're in the max points pool for that particular hunt.  The 10% NR cap gets met as part of the max pool draw, so there are literally no NR tags left for the random draw.  You can see it happen in the point/draw breakdown they publish.  Makes sense - the residents draw more frequently and therefore have fewer points.  So the max pool for those primo tags are almost entirely NR's.  If 20% of the tags go to the max pool, but only 10% of the TOTAL tags can go to NR's...well, you can see the problem.  You can actually see it at work in the draw statistics they publish.   

Here's an example, which isn't far from a tag I wanted last year.  If there's 100 total tags for the hunt, 20 of them go to the guys with the most points, and the NR cap is 10 tags.  So all five of the guys with 12 points draw, and all six of the guys with 11 points draw, but then only 3 of 10 applicants with 10 points draw.  How can that be if the 20 max point tags haven't been issued?  Well, at least 10 of those who drew the first 14 tags must have been NR's, or else 9 of those 10 applicants with 10 points should have drawn.  So the max point allocation keeps going for residents for the remaining six max pool tags, but the NR's are completely done.  Once the 20 max tags are issued, they go to a true draw for the other 80 tags, but all 80 go to residents.

I've got 10 points for elk and goats and put in for points only, knowing that I don't have a chance (literally zero) to draw the tags I want and would rather not give them the $1,000 to sit on for a couple months.

[firedog]

Sent mine in a couple weeks ago. A lot of cash to send in and wait to get it back. 

[nwhunter]

I have been to cheap to start the Arizona game but I did put my boy in this year. Its a good deal for the nonres youths to buy points for $34 I think it was. He is ten and by the time he will be ready for a big bull hunt he may have the points and I will probably have more fun watching him kill a big Arizona bull than myself. nwhunter

[zhunter]

we can all thank osu outfitters for this and the big money it cost to apply for out of state tags

[BC CHASER]

I probably have a better chance of drawin 9 in Arizona than I do a big bull hunt here in Washington.  Now thats pitiful. 

Actually you have an infinitely better chance of drawing a Blues rifle rut tag.  Romulus is right on the money...NR's have ZERO chance of drawing the primo AZ tags (Unit 9 included) unless you're in the max points pool for that particular hunt.  The 10% NR cap gets met as part of the max pool draw, so there are literally no NR tags left for the random draw.  You can see it happen in the point/draw breakdown they publish.  Makes sense - the residents draw more frequently and therefore have fewer points.  So the max pool for those primo tags are almost entirely NR's.  If 20% of the tags go to the max pool, but only 10% of the TOTAL tags can go to NR's...well, you can see the problem.  You can actually see it at work in the draw statistics they publish.
Here's an example, which isn't far from a tag I wanted last year.  If there's 100 total tags for the hunt, 20 of them go to the guys with the most points, and the NR cap is 10 tags.  So all five of the guys with 12 points draw, and all six of the guys with 11 points draw, but then only 3 of 10 applicants with 10 points draw.  How can that be if the 20 max point tags haven't been issued?  Well, at least 10 of those who drew the first 14 tags must have been NR's, or else 9 of those 10 applicants with 10 points should have drawn.  So the max point allocation keeps going for residents for the remaining six max pool tags, but the NR's are completely done.  Once the 20 max tags are issued, they go to a true draw for the other 80 tags, but all 80 go to residents.

I've got 10 points for elk and goats and put in for points only, knowing that I don't have a chance (literally zero) to draw the tags I want and would rather not give them the $1,000 to sit on for a couple months.

You are right on but............  most game departments are broke and are looking to bring in as much $$$$ as they can.  So expect to see higher numbers of non-residents drawing (including AZ) until the economy recovers.   

[WAcoueshunter]

You are right on but............  most game departments are broke and are looking to bring in as much $$$$ as they can.  So expect to see higher numbers of non-residents drawing (including AZ) until the economy recovers.  

I sure hope so...it will only get more and more skewed against the NR's, so at some point you'd think the game departments would need to even things out to some extent.  Hopefully they'll eventually realize that the current system is non-sustainable and they'll start losing all that free money from the NR's.  For now though, they've got no incentive to change.  Just from the responses to this board we're talking about a couple grand to them in hunting licenses from guys who will not hunt in AZ in 2010.  

[BC CHASER]

Don't forget too that a lot of NR guys might be strapped for cash this year as well and not beable to afford it.

[Elkstuffer]

we can all thank osu outfitters for this and the big money it cost to apply for out of state tags

Did you mean USO?

[Bigshooter]

I probably have a better chance of drawin 9 in Arizona than I do a big bull hunt here in Washington.  Now thats pitiful.  

Actually you have an infinitely better chance of drawing a Blues rifle rut tag.  Romulus is right on the money...NR's have ZERO chance of drawing the primo AZ tags (Unit 9 included) unless you're in the max points pool for that particular hunt.  The 10% NR cap gets met as part of the max pool draw, so there are literally no NR tags left for the random draw.  You can see it happen in the point/draw breakdown they publish.  Makes sense - the residents draw more frequently and therefore have fewer points.  So the max pool for those primo tags are almost entirely NR's.  If 20% of the tags go to the max pool, but only 10% of the TOTAL tags can go to NR's...well, you can see the problem.  You can actually see it at work in the draw statistics they publish.   

Here's an example, which isn't far from a tag I wanted last year.  If there's 100 total tags for the hunt, 20 of them go to the guys with the most points, and the NR cap is 10 tags.  So all five of the guys with 12 points draw, and all six of the guys with 11 points draw, but then only 3 of 10 applicants with 10 points draw.  How can that be if the 20 max point tags haven't been issued?  Well, at least 10 of those who drew the first 14 tags must have been NR's, or else 9 of those 10 applicants with 10 points should have drawn.  So the max point allocation keeps going for residents for the remaining six max pool tags, but the NR's are completely done.  Once the 20 max tags are issued, they go to a true draw for the other 80 tags, but all 80 go to residents.

I've got 10 points for elk and goats and put in for points only, knowing that I don't have a chance (literally zero) to draw the tags I want and would rather not give them the $1,000 to sit on for a couple months.

What you are saying is right on for deer if you don't have max as a nonresident you will not be drawn for the late tags in 12 or 13.  But for elk it is not entirely ture.  9 and 10 achery there is always a few tags that go to nonresident in the draw after the max guys get there 20%.  Arizona sells a booklet that breaks down all the units and how many points it took to draw.  It is worth the money to buy to see where you actually sit with your points. 

[boneaddict]

Nice discussion guys and exactly why I hate the preference (max point pools) and the NR cap.   I certainly can understand the Cap from a resident's POV, but as BC said, their departments are missing out on some serious cash.

[WAcoueshunter]

I'll take a look at the breakdown in 9...I've been applying for unit 1 archery and came to the conclusion that no tags were getting through based on how the draw broke down last year, and the same happened with the coues tag I apply for.  

I haven't plunked down for the book, but you can pretty well figure it our from the draw data they put on their site.  They have an unvelievable amount of info available.  Just found a breakdown of the total number of outstanding bonus points between residents and NRs.  Here:  http://www.azgfd.gov/eservices/documents/IndividualBonusPointsTotalsbySpecies_000.pdf

The interesting thing is that elk points are roughly equal between residents and NRs at the higher numbers - so ultimately it will depend on the particular hunt and whether more than half of the max pool is made up of NR's - if so, no NR tags are getting through.

For deer, it's skewed to NR's.  For goats, it's heavily skewed to residents.  In other words, the NR cap probably doesn't get met too often for goats (at least not from the max pool), so there will always be some chance you could draw a goat tag.  

If you can find the 2009 hunt numbers, you can see the max pool breakdown for deer here:  http://www.azgfd.gov/eservices/documents/2009FallDraw-BonusPointReport-BonusPassbyHuntNumber.pdf

And here's the total points breakdown for deer:  http://www.azgfd.gov/eservices/documents/2009FallDraw-BonusPointReport-1-2PassbyHuntNumber.pdf

Here they are for elk and goats:

http://www.azgfd.gov/eservices/documents/2009PronghornandElk-BonusPointReport-BonusPassbyHuntNumber_000.pdf

http://www.azgfd.gov/eservices/documents/2009PronghornandElk-BonusPointReport-1-2PassbyHuntNumber_000.pdf