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Author Topic: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington  (Read 119740 times)

Offline Machias

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #570 on: June 29, 2011, 03:27:57 PM »
Part of me wants Molloy to stop this fall's hunt. If he does then I believe Congress will have no choice but to gut the ESA.  The rest of me knows we really need to have a hunt this fall.  I guess the best of both worlds is we have the hunt this fall and then late next winter Molloy stops the hunt for next year and Congress eviserates the ESA.
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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #571 on: June 29, 2011, 05:13:04 PM »
The working group is biased to the pro-wolf side of the argument. Their initial draft plan is ridiculous and that's why the Minority Group came out with their alternative. For some reason, the WDFW is in love with wolves and intends to use our hunting dollars to proliferate the species. Once the hunters are gone, I wonder whose dollars they'll use then to restore the elk herds. Not only is their stance a huge conflict of interest, our license revenues are being used to fund a program which could eventually end our hunting, eliminating the funding, which will bankrupt the WDFW. These people are not being very far-sighted. The fact that they're allowing themselves to be so heavily influenced by the pro-wolf lobby says to me that they've forgotten why they're there. Maybe a new, Republican governor could remind them. Let's hope.
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Offline Curly

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #572 on: June 29, 2011, 05:16:10 PM »
The fact that they're allowing themselves to be so heavily influenced by the pro-wolf lobby says to me that they've forgotten why they're there. Maybe a new, Republican governor could remind them. Let's hope.

 :yeah:

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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #573 on: June 29, 2011, 05:25:06 PM »
the last few minutes with (i think it was) Whecker speaking are pretty telling... the at risk ungulate conversation  :bash:

Exactly, I noticed that too.
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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #574 on: June 29, 2011, 05:35:24 PM »
Part of me wants Molloy to stop this fall's hunt. If he does then I believe Congress will have no choice but to gut the ESA.  The rest of me knows we really need to have a hunt this fall.  I guess the best of both worlds is we have the hunt this fall and then late next winter Molloy stops the hunt for next year and Congress eviserates the ESA.

I have thought the same thing. If Malloy stops the hunt again, it will spell the end of the ESA as it now stands. Congress will react to such nonsense.

Right now Idaho residents have already rebelled, go into any small town bar and start talking about wolves, you will get more info that you really want to know.  :chuckle:

The sad thing is that this whole scenario is very unhealthy for responsible scientific game management. If the wolfers would have backed off when the original wolf quota was met, severe damage would have not occurred and many more people would have accepted wolves in reasonable numbers. Now nobody trusts any game department in any western state and more people are rebelling every year in affected states.  :twocents:

Quote
For some reason, the WDFW is in love with wolves and intends to use our hunting dollars to proliferate the species.


What I think has occured is that hunters and fishers who get into wildlife management learn to be managers or biologist for fish and game or they become wardens. Wolf lovers and huggers get into endangered species mnagement and biology, so all the Fish & Game Depts now have wolf huggers running their endangered species divisions. The former director of USFWS is now working for Defenders of Wildlife.  :bash:
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 05:43:21 PM by bearpaw »
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Offline grundy53

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #575 on: June 30, 2011, 05:25:56 AM »
Part of me wants Molloy to stop this fall's hunt. If he does then I believe Congress will have no choice but to gut the ESA.  The rest of me knows we really need to have a hunt this fall.  I guess the best of both worlds is we have the hunt this fall and then late next winter Molloy stops the hunt for next year and Congress eviserates the ESA.

I have thought the same thing. If Malloy stops the hunt again, it will spell the end of the ESA as it now stands. Congress will react to such nonsense.

Right now Idaho residents have already rebelled, go into any small town bar and start talking about wolves, you will get more info that you really want to know.  :chuckle:

The sad thing is that this whole scenario is very unhealthy for responsible scientific game management. If the wolfers would have backed off when the original wolf quota was met, severe damage would have not occurred and many more people would have accepted wolves in reasonable numbers. Now nobody trusts any game department in any western state and more people are rebelling every year in affected states.  :twocents:


I'm not sure they would gut the ESA. I wish they would but I always felt that the reason we got this bill past was because we add it as a rider onto the budget bill and congress HAD to pass the budget bill. I'm not sure if we could get it passed otherwise. Remember the senate is still controlled by liberals. And if some how it managed to pass it would still have to be signed by barry obama.  Like I said, I would love it if they gutted the ESA but I don't think it would happen.
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Offline Machias

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #576 on: June 30, 2011, 10:05:03 AM »
Right now Idaho residents have already rebelled, go into any small town bar and start talking about wolves, you will get more info that you really want to know.  :chuckle:

The sad thing is that this whole scenario is very unhealthy for responsible scientific game management. If the wolfers would have backed off when the original wolf quota was met, severe damage would have not occurred and many more people would have accepted wolves in reasonable numbers. Now nobody trusts any game department in any western state and more people are rebelling every year in affected states.  :twocents:


I was in Avery, ID last week, HUGE professional sign on a house there.  "We shoot illegals, escpecially grey ones from Canada."  I mean this sign is 20 feet by 20 feet and was done at a printing shop!  The last paragragh is soo true.  Had they stopped at 10 breeding pairs and delisted them when they originally said they would they'd have 50%+ of the sportsmen's support as well.
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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #577 on: June 30, 2011, 10:08:22 AM »
Right now Idaho residents have already rebelled, go into any small town bar and start talking about wolves, you will get more info that you really want to know.  :chuckle:

The sad thing is that this whole scenario is very unhealthy for responsible scientific game management. If the wolfers would have backed off when the original wolf quota was met, severe damage would have not occurred and many more people would have accepted wolves in reasonable numbers. Now nobody trusts any game department in any western state and more people are rebelling every year in affected states.  :twocents:


I was in Avery, ID last week, HUGE professional sign on a house there.  "We shoot illegals, escpecially grey ones from Canada."  I mean this sign is 20 feet by 20 feet and was done at a printing shop!  The last paragragh is soo true.  Had they stopped at 10 breeding pairs and delisted them when they originally said they would they'd have 50%+ of the sportsmen's support as well.

Gives a whole new meaning to the term "wolf management". I don't condone it, but I sure understand it.
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Offline Wenatcheejay

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #578 on: June 30, 2011, 10:35:45 AM »
Right now Idaho residents have already rebelled, go into any small town bar and start talking about wolves, you will get more info that you really want to know.  :chuckle:

The sad thing is that this whole scenario is very unhealthy for responsible scientific game management. If the wolfers would have backed off when the original wolf quota was met, severe damage would have not occurred and many more people would have accepted wolves in reasonable numbers. Now nobody trusts any game department in any western state and more people are rebelling every year in affected states.  :twocents:


I was in Avery, ID last week, HUGE professional sign on a house there.  "We shoot illegals, escpecially grey ones from Canada."  I mean this sign is 20 feet by 20 feet and was done at a printing shop!  The last paragragh is soo true.  Had they stopped at 10 breeding pairs and delisted them when they originally said they would they'd have 50%+ of the sportsmen's support as well.

Gives a whole new meaning to the term "wolf management". I don't condone it, but I sure understand it.

I understand this type of feeling but it is the Federal and the State Governments that people are taking on. They will put people in jail. If an individual is willing to do this and take on the Federal Agents the information and know how they will need for the standoff goes beyond H-W. I don't think they would be all wrong. But we need to look at all options. It would be nice if we massed and went after the jobs that employee the people who write the laws that enforce this crap. It would be nice to defund dangerous Wildlife nuisance calls. Let local PD's deal with predators on the Westside. That is the only way fir loving crazies are going to get it. IF people are going to go vigilante I'd keep it to yourself. Advertising that you are going to kill be it people or other things is not a good plan. It is an emotional plan. If we are going to win and not have Ruby Ridge type scenario's I'd recommend cool heads. If we are not going to use cool heads then I'd recommend not using public forums.

I don't understand all of the "Biology Studies." If the Wolves were now treated like coyotes their numbers will increase. There is nothing anyone can do about it. There is no way you are going to convince me the decision to undo the current plan for Big Game has not been the plan all along. Not just with DFW and the WDFW but with our entire Federal Government as well. What we need to do is figure out how to be the pea under the pillow of our Political Leaders and their legions of bureaucrats. Their policies are going to lead to massive, MASSIVE, budget shortfalls. We need to force them to fire people because of it not raise new taxes to keep things flowing. Shut Parks Down, close boat launches, make them Loose it all. That's how we win. When we bend over and pay for things like "Discovery Pass" we are assisting them in closing down hunting. If they can get everyone to pay the majority of Parks when there is no hunting there we make their case that we are so desperate to be given permission to hunt "Public Land" we will pay anything. They believe that the old belief that they need to manage for hunters is false because they slowly move Human Hunters out of the equation. That is where wolves come in. To create a new system, one where we are not the equation. I hope "Discover Pass" fails. It will help to bring them back to the table for us. We need to demand a better deal. To do that we need numbers and I believe we have it when you look at all the small group that make up the bulk of Hunting and Fishing using groups, we are just small and local. But if we unite and speak with one voice I think we can make real change, if we don't do this and soon I fear it is going to be to late.
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Offline Machias

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #579 on: June 30, 2011, 10:54:23 AM »
I don't understand all of the "Biology Studies." If the Wolves were now treated like coyotes their numbers will increase. There is nothing anyone can do about it. There is no way you are going to convince me the decision to undo the current plan for Big Game has not been the plan all along. Not just with DFW and the WDFW but with our entire Federal Government as well. What we need to do is figure out how to be the pea under the pillow of our Political Leaders and their legions of bureaucrats. Their policies are going to lead to massive, MASSIVE, budget shortfalls. We need to force them to fire people because of it not raise new taxes to keep things flowing. Shut Parks Down, close boat launches, make them Loose it all. That's how we win. When we bend over and pay for things like "Discovery Pass" we are assisting them in closing down hunting. If they can get everyone to pay the majority of Parks when there is no hunting there we make their case that we are so desperate to be given permission to hunt "Public Land" we will pay anything. They believe that the old belief that they need to manage for hunters is false because they slowly move Human Hunters out of the equation. That is where wolves come in. To create a new system, one where we are not the equation. I hope "Discover Pass" fails. It will help to bring them back to the table for us. We need to demand a better deal. To do that we need numbers and I believe we have it when you look at all the small group that make up the bulk of Hunting and Fishing using groups, we are just small and local. But if we unite and speak with one voice I think we can make real change, if we don't do this and soon I fear it is going to be to late.

Question, not just to Wenatcheejay.  When wolves were eradicated from the west before, there was a heck of alot less people, hunters and such, as there are now.  How did they do it?  One of the themes I have seen emerging lately being prepetuated by both sides is, it's futile now   :dunno:   , they couldn't even come close to the measly 220 qouta in Idaho, so there is no way they will ever be eradicated now.  I see this argument being put forth by both sides, almost a sense of complete hoplessness that we can even manage wolves now let alone really knock thier numbers down.  If that's the case how in the heck did they manage to make them extinct in the lower 48?
 
And Wenatcheejay, everything you laid out is exactly going according to their plans, they don't want boat lanches and peolpe using state parks and wilderness areas.  They would be perfectly happy if everyone stayed out of the woods.  We may end up being the pea under the mattress, but how does that compare to the boulder hanging over their heads in the form of PETA and HSUS and an uneducated mass.  We're the flea on a speck to them, even with the one voice.....or am I not giving us enough credit?
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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #580 on: June 30, 2011, 11:01:58 AM »
I don't understand all of the "Biology Studies." If the Wolves were now treated like coyotes their numbers will increase. There is nothing anyone can do about it. There is no way you are going to convince me the decision to undo the current plan for Big Game has not been the plan all along. Not just with DFW and the WDFW but with our entire Federal Government as well. What we need to do is figure out how to be the pea under the pillow of our Political Leaders and their legions of bureaucrats. Their policies are going to lead to massive, MASSIVE, budget shortfalls. We need to force them to fire people because of it not raise new taxes to keep things flowing. Shut Parks Down, close boat launches, make them Loose it all. That's how we win. When we bend over and pay for things like "Discovery Pass" we are assisting them in closing down hunting. If they can get everyone to pay the majority of Parks when there is no hunting there we make their case that we are so desperate to be given permission to hunt "Public Land" we will pay anything. They believe that the old belief that they need to manage for hunters is false because they slowly move Human Hunters out of the equation. That is where wolves come in. To create a new system, one where we are not the equation. I hope "Discover Pass" fails. It will help to bring them back to the table for us. We need to demand a better deal. To do that we need numbers and I believe we have it when you look at all the small group that make up the bulk of Hunting and Fishing using groups, we are just small and local. But if we unite and speak with one voice I think we can make real change, if we don't do this and soon I fear it is going to be to late.

Question, not just to Wenatcheejay.  When wolves were eradicated from the west before, there was a heck of alot less people, hunters and such, as there are now.  How did they do it?  One of the themes I have seen emerging lately being prepetuated by both sides is, it's futile now   :dunno:   , they couldn't even come close to the measly 220 qouta in Idaho, so there is no way they will ever be eradicated now.  I see this argument being put forth by both sides, almost a sense of complete hoplessness that we can even manage wolves now let alone really knock thier numbers down.  If that's the case how in the heck did they manage to make them extinct in the lower 48?
 
And Wenatcheejay, everything you laid out is exactly going according to their plans, they don't want boat lanches and peolpe using state parks and wilderness areas.  They would be perfectly happy if everyone stayed out of the woods.  We may end up being the pea under the mattress, but how does that compare to the boulder hanging over their heads in the form of PETA and HSUS and an uneducated mass.  We're the flea on a speck to them, even with the one voice.....or am I not giving us enough credit?

We're a strong voice, Machias. There's 8,000 of us in HuntWA and the numbers of us in WFW are growing daily. When teaming up with the Cattleman's Association and others, we represent a large group of license-paying individuals that they must listen to.

In answer to your first question, I think a lot of poison was used, in addition to leg traps, snares, and shooters. The poison will be the big difference between then and now. And, I think your observation about concern regarding controlling their numbers is spot on.
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Offline grundy53

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #581 on: June 30, 2011, 12:45:26 PM »
I don't understand all of the "Biology Studies." If the Wolves were now treated like coyotes their numbers will increase. There is nothing anyone can do about it. There is no way you are going to convince me the decision to undo the current plan for Big Game has not been the plan all along. Not just with DFW and the WDFW but with our entire Federal Government as well. What we need to do is figure out how to be the pea under the pillow of our Political Leaders and their legions of bureaucrats. Their policies are going to lead to massive, MASSIVE, budget shortfalls. We need to force them to fire people because of it not raise new taxes to keep things flowing. Shut Parks Down, close boat launches, make them Loose it all. That's how we win. When we bend over and pay for things like "Discovery Pass" we are assisting them in closing down hunting. If they can get everyone to pay the majority of Parks when there is no hunting there we make their case that we are so desperate to be given permission to hunt "Public Land" we will pay anything. They believe that the old belief that they need to manage for hunters is false because they slowly move Human Hunters out of the equation. That is where wolves come in. To create a new system, one where we are not the equation. I hope "Discover Pass" fails. It will help to bring them back to the table for us. We need to demand a better deal. To do that we need numbers and I believe we have it when you look at all the small group that make up the bulk of Hunting and Fishing using groups, we are just small and local. But if we unite and speak with one voice I think we can make real change, if we don't do this and soon I fear it is going to be to late.

Question, not just to Wenatcheejay.  When wolves were eradicated from the west before, there was a heck of alot less people, hunters and such, as there are now.  How did they do it?  One of the themes I have seen emerging lately being prepetuated by both sides is, it's futile now   :dunno:   , they couldn't even come close to the measly 220 qouta in Idaho, so there is no way they will ever be eradicated now.  I see this argument being put forth by both sides, almost a sense of complete hoplessness that we can even manage wolves now let alone really knock thier numbers down.  If that's the case how in the heck did they manage to make them extinct in the lower 48?
And Wenatcheejay, everything you laid out is exactly going according to their plans, they don't want boat lanches and peolpe using state parks and wilderness areas.  They would be perfectly happy if everyone stayed out of the woods.  We may end up being the pea under the mattress, but how does that compare to the boulder hanging over their heads in the form of PETA and HSUS and an uneducated mass.  We're the flea on a speck to them, even with the one voice.....or am I not giving us enough credit?

Pianoman is absolutely right. The main reason they were able to do it before was POISON. Which is why they can't even make a dent now.... :bash:

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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #582 on: July 01, 2011, 09:15:33 AM »
They used all means to rid the land of wolves including poison and there were guys who were professionals, that's what those guys did for a living and they were good at it. The same thing happened with cougar, the cougar numbers got so bad that the government put bounties on cougar in the 50's. When cougar numbers were reduced mule deer flourished across the west. I am not saying we need a bounty on cougar again, but some reduction in numbers would benefit other wildlife and hunter opportunity in Washington.

Coyotes have been recently recognized by the state game agencies in Utah and Nevada as a primary factor in the lack of mule deer fawn recruitment. Not a lot of people realize it, but there is a bounty in Utah and Nevada on coyotes now.

There was legislation drafted in Idaho in the last year to create a bounty on wolves, but it didn't go anywhere. Unless wolves get controlled in Idaho soon, you will see that issue arise again. As Machias elated, people in Idaho are fed up with wolves, the destruction of elk herds, loss of pets and livestock, and they don't care who knows how they feel. People openly talk and advertise their intentions.

Myself, I would have had no problem with a small manageable population of wolves in Washington, after all, there have been some wolves in Washington for many years, but the current draft wolf plan will do to Washington exactly what has happened in Idaho. It's a travesty that modern game management has turned into a shoving match between enviro's and vigilanties willing to put their freedom and livilihood on the line. What ever happened to wildlife management based on truthful science and maximum recreational opportunity? Will Washington residents be forced into choosing a side between the two extremes?

Wildlife is one of America's greatest resources and our management system is the envy of the world. Why do so many agencies seem so anxious to throw it all away?
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

http://bearpawoutfitters.com Guided Hunts, Unguided, & Drop Camps in Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Wash. Hunts with tags available (no draw) for spring bear, fall bear, buffalo, cougar, elk, mule deer, turkey, whitetail, wolf! http://trophymaps.com DIY Hunting Maps are also offered.

Offline Machias

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #583 on: July 01, 2011, 10:16:16 AM »
 :yeah:
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Offline Special T

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #584 on: July 02, 2011, 10:13:57 AM »
When Government ignores the concerns and well being of good law abiding citizens, the same citizens are turned into criminals... I would argue that it is the right to defend ones property and family. So in the eyes of the law a good upstanding citizen is no better than a common criminal... I think most people in ID see the difference. People did not become criminals, the change was forced upon them by Government! 
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