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Author Topic: Need Cleaning Help on a Hawken Style  (Read 1106 times)

Offline luvmystang67

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Need Cleaning Help on a Hawken Style
« on: March 06, 2012, 02:02:59 PM »
So, I have a .50 Cal CVA POS in-line that I have used whenever my black powder urge arises.  To clean I remove the breech plug and run paper towel through with black powder solvent and maybe a 12 gauge bore brush.  I put my nipple and breech in a solvent bath and clean with a toothpick and cotton swab before reassembling.  Always pretty straight forward and easy.

Here's my question... what do I do with the Hawken style I have now?  I've never used any oil before, but I see that I should be using some.  What kind of oil do I use?  What kind of patches do I use?  I'm assuming I dont remove the breech plug every time.  How do I ensure its clean?  I kind of need the step by step "for idiots" help on this.  I appreciate specifics as in which solvents and so forth.

Also, it appears everyone just uses these with #11 Caps, any advantage or disadvantage to switching to musket caps or is there simply no gain?  Also, is real black powder way better in these than Pyrodex?  I feel like I'm going from "city kid" muzzleloading to "farm kid/old school" muzzleloading and I need some help with my transition.

Do I use any kind of patch with say a conical maxi ball?  I actually like this gun as opposed to my pile of garbage CVA and want to try to do it right.  Please help.

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Need Cleaning Help on a Hawken Style
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2012, 05:36:55 PM »
So, I have a .50 Cal CVA POS in-line that I have used whenever my black powder urge arises.  To clean I remove the breech plug and run paper towel through with black powder solvent and maybe a 12 gauge bore brush.  I put my nipple and breech in a solvent bath and clean with a toothpick and cotton swab before reassembling.  Always pretty straight forward and easy.

Here's my question... what do I do with the Hawken style I have now?  I've never used any oil before, but I see that I should be using some.  What kind of oil do I use?  What kind of patches do I use?  I'm assuming I dont remove the breech plug every time.  How do I ensure its clean?  I kind of need the step by step "for idiots" help on this.  I appreciate specifics as in which solvents and so forth.


This is long so sit down to read, but it could help.  Wriiten by a freind of mine and basically for a inline but a lot of it applys to a traditional gun also - except you do not remove the breech plug...

Quote
Cleaning a muzzleloader

ALWAYS BE POSITIVE THAT THE RIFLE IS NOT LOADED. CHECK THE RIFLE IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS BEFORE STARTING THE CLEANING PROCESS.


Inline muzzleloaders

This is the way I like to clean them. Many people have their own methods and I am not trying to claim one is right over the other. This is just the method I use…

1. Swab the barrel with a patch on a cleaning jag. I like to saturate the patch with a mixture of 50/50 isopropyl alcohol and car windshield washer fluid. Some other things to use are Windex, and even simple water with some dish soap mixed in. All this step does is attempt to remove as much of the fowling as possible before I break the rifle down.
2. Disassemble the rifle according to the manufacture’s instructions. Be sure to lay the parts out in a orderly manner. In other words, know how it goes back together.
3. Take the fowled breech plug and place that in a soaking solution of water with a little dish soap. Also any other fowled parts that can be placed in that solution should be allowed to soak.
4. With the rifle now broken down, I like to take the isopropyl alcohol and windshield solution and wet a patch. I then wipe out the stock in all the areas that are fowled or COULD BE fowled. Allow that to dry as you clean the rest of the rifle.
5. With a saturated patch, pushing from the breech to the muzzle, begin to swab the barrel clean of fowling. This might take a couple saturated patches. The point is to clean out all the visible fouling.
6. Using a breech plug bush, wrap a patch around it, and saturate it with Windex or solvent. It is important that you scrub the breech plug threads and get them very clean. Continue with patches until you can look in there and see that the threads of that breech are clean and free of tape, or grease.
7. Place a brass bore brush on the ramrod and dip that in solvent. Now brush the barrel a couple times to remove anything that might have accumulated in the barrel.
8. With another saturated patch with some solvent or solution, swab the bore of the rifle again in the same manner you did before.. Note the color and condition of the patch. If it is clean, then you need to take steps to dry the barrel.
9. With just dry patches, swab the barrel until you are certain the barrel is dry. Feel that patch and if you feel moisture on it, keep swabbing with more patches.
10. When your certain the barrel is clean and dry, and the threads of the breech plug are clean and dry, put a HIGH QUALITY GUN OIL on a patch and swab the barrel of the rifle. Be sure to work that oil in real good into the bore to cover all parts. Now you can set the barrel aside.
11. Remove the fowled parts from the soaking jar. Clean the breech plug free of all fowling and tape. A toothbrush is very handy for this. I like to take them to the sink and under running water, put a little hand soap on the threads, then brush them clean of all fowling, and rinse the soap off them.
12. I then take some Q-tips and dip them in solvent. I clean the inside of the breech plug very carefully and the outside of any spots that might have fowling. Hold that up to the light and you should be able to see light through it.
13. Clean all other fowled parts using patches, solvent, Q-tips or anything else you might need.
14. Take the trigger and spray it with a solvent or cleaner of sorts. I like to do this outside. I use brake cleaner. After I have sprayed down the inside of the trigger, I like to take my air compressor and using a high pressure air nozzle, blow all the moisture and cleaner out of the trigger assembly. I then put a few drops of quality gun oil in the trigger mechanism.
15. Next I take some white Teflon plumbers tape and wrap the breech plug, CLOCKWISE. I then take some anti seize and an small paint brush used for painting models, and paint into the threads over the tape a coating of anti seize. When I have all parts of that covered. I replace the breech plug back into the rifle barrel.
16. Next is put the trigger assembly back on.
17. Now you reassemble all the parts with a light coat of oil on them.
18. Replace the assembled barrel back in to the stock. Lock the barrel to the stock with the locking lug screw. Try and develop a feel for the amount of tension you put on the lug so you can do this each and every time.
19. Be sure to wipe the ramrod and the outside of the rifle off.
20. Your rifle is now protected and all you need do is swab the barrel with some alcohol before your next range trip to remove the oil in it.
 


Here is another one that might interest you... again really long

Quote
WHAT KIND OF SUPPLIES DO I NEED TO SHOOT MY RIFLE?

Black powder rifle supplies

DECIDE ON THE KIND OF POWDER

Pyrodex
Triple Se7en
Goex
Black Mag3
American Pioneer Powder
Black Horn 209 (make sure you can shoot this)


Make sure your rifle can shoot the kind of powder you select. Also decide if you want to shoot pellets or loose powder. Both will work in inline rifles with a 209 ignition system. Loose powder is cheaper. If starting out, I would go with Pyrodex RS or Triple Seven 2f until I establish a load. After that if you want to experiment with other powders, that’s where the fun comes in.

WHAT KIND OF IGNITION SYSTEM DO I HAVE AND WHAT DO I NEED?

209 primers
musket caps
#11 percussion caps

Rifles normally fall into three groups. The 209 primer, the musket cap, and the #11 percussion cap. But also remember, some rifles are set up to shoot small rifle primers and of course there are flintlocks. But you need to recognize the ignition system your rifle has and also consider the kind of powder you intend to shoot.

TOOLS NEEDED

See through powder measure
Cleaning jag
Cleaning mop
Patch worm
Bore brush
Short starter
Capper/de-capper - cappers come in different styles. The purpose of the capper is to hold 209 primers, musket caps, or #11 primers and they allow you to carry the caps/primers easier and to reach in hard to get to nipple, like when the rifle is scoped, and still put the cap on with relative ease. The de-capper is a small end that slips behind the 209 primer and allows you to pry the primer out of the breech plug. Also on the other end of the de-capper there is normally a place for you to set a 209 primer and reach into the rifle breech and put the primer in the breech plug.

Loading jag for the projectile
Nipple pick
Breech plug removal tool – these are often included with the rifle. Also what works in some cases are a socket set with long extensions

CLEANING SUPPLIES

Isopropyl alcohol 91%
Car windshield washer fluid
Bore butter or lube for conical bullets
Gun Oil – Birchwood Casey Sheath, REM OIL, Breakfree CLP, Montana Extreme gun products.

Q-tip safety swabs
Cleaning Patches
Bore Solvents

Birchwood Casey Bore Scrubber
Butch’s Bore Shine
M.A.P. – Murphy’s oil soap, alcohol, hydrogen peroxide

PROJECTILES
Sabots for the caliber of rifle
Bullets to match sabots according to the diameter of the bullet
Conicals
When you select a projectile, often times the manufacturer will give recommendations. I normally start off with some 250 grain Shockwaves and some 300 grain Hornady XTP's with the sabots that come with them. This will get you on paper, sometimes shoot very well, and also get you used to the rifle. After that you can experiment with all sorts of things. Conicals are another area of concern for some. Some states require Conicals for hunting. Look at the BullShop Conicals, No Excuses, and Great Plains if you wish to throw large chunks of lead around.

I am sure I forgot some things. Also I can not stress the value of a good range rod. They are better built then the one that comes with your rifle. They are longer, and can take more abuse. I save the rifle ramrod for hunting and show. Otherwise I get a good range ramrod and do all my loading and cleaning with that.


Cleaning a muzzleloader
ALWAYS BE POSITIVE THAT THE RIFLE IS NOT LOADED. CHECK THE RIFLE IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS BEFORE STARTING THE CLEANING PROCESS.


Inline muzzleloaders

This is the way I like to clean them. Many people have their own methods and I am not trying to claim one is right over the other. This is just the method I use…

1. Swab the barrel with a patch on a cleaning jag. I like to saturate the patch with a mixture of 50/50 isopropyl alcohol and car windshield washer fluid. Some other things to use are Windex, and even simple water with some dish soap mixed in. All this step does is attempt to remove as much of the fowling as possible before I break the rifle down.
2. Disassemble the rifle according to the manufacture’s instructions. Be sure to lay the parts out in a orderly manner. In other words, know how it goes back together.
3. Take the fowled breech plug and place that in a soaking solution of water with a little dish soap. Also any other fowled parts that can be placed in that solution should be allowed to soak.
4. With the rifle now broken down, I like to take the isopropyl alcohol and windshield solution and wet a patch. I then wipe out the stock in all the areas that are fowled or COULD BE fowled. Allow that to dry as you clean the rest of the rifle.
5. Using a breech plug bush, wrap a patch around it, and saturate it with Windex or solvent. It is important that you scrub the breech plug threads and get them very clean. Continue with patches until you can look in there and see that the threads of that breech are clean and free of tape, or grease.
6. With a saturated patch, pushing from the breech to the muzzle, begin to swab the barrel clean of fowling. Do not drag the dirty patch back over the clean breech plug threads. This might take a couple saturated patches.
7. Place a brass bore brush on the ramrod and dip that in solvent. Now brush the barrel a couple times to remove anything that might have accumulated in the barrel.
8. With another saturated patch with some solvent or solution, swab the bore of the rifle again in the same manner you did before.. Note the color and condition of the patch. If it is clean, then you need to take steps to dry the barrel.
9. With just dry patches, swab the barrel until you are certain the barrel is dry. Feel that patch and if you feel moisture on it, keep swabbing with more patches.
10. When your certain the barrel is clean and dry, and the threads of the breech plug are clean and dry, put a HIGH QUALITY GUN OIL on a patch and swab the barrel of the rifle. Be sure to work that oil in real good into the bore to cover all parts. Now you can set the barrel aside.
11. Remove the fowled parts from the soaking jar. Clean the breech plug free of all fowling and tape. A toothbrush is very handy for this. I like to take them to the sink and under running water, put a little hand soap on the threads, then brush them clean of all fowling, and rinse the soap off them.
12. I then take some Q-tips and dip them in solvent. I clean the inside of the breech plug very carefully and the outside of any spots that might have fowling. Hold that up to the light and you should be able to see light through it.
13. Clean all other fowled parts using patches, solvent, Q-tips or anything else you might need.
14. Take the trigger and spray it with a solvent or cleaner of sorts. I like to do this outside. I use brake cleaner. After I have sprayed down the inside of the trigger, I like to take my air compressor and using a high pressure air nozzle, blow all the moisture and cleaner out of the trigger assembly. I then put a few drops of quality gun oil in the trigger mechanism.
15. Next I take some white Teflon plumbers tape and wrap the breech plug. I then take some anti seize and an small paint brush used for painting models, and paint into the threads over the tape a coating of anti seize. When I have all parts of that covered. I replace the breech plug back into the rifle barrel.
16. Next is put the trigger assembly back on.
17. Now you reassemble all the parts with a light coat of oil on them.
18. Replace the assembled barrel back in to the stock. Lock the barrel to the stock with the locking lug screw. Try and develop a feel for the amount of tension you put on the lug so you can do this each and every time.
19. Be sure to wipe the ramrod and the outside of the rifle off.
20. Your rifle is now protected and all you need do is swab the barrel with some alcohol before your next range trip to remove the oil in it.


LET’S SHOOT A RIFLE

Inline...

Make sure the rifle is clean and empty. Also, be sure that you have taped up or greased the breech plug. If you do not take and grease the breech plug you might have trouble getting it back out at the end of the day. Now we will start to load and shoot.

You have already decided on the powder and projectile already. So take a patch, lightly apply some isopropyl alcohol and swab the bore of the rifle. When you swab, put the patch over the end of the barrel and push the ramrod with the cleaning/loading jag into the patch. As you work the patch down the bore, work the patch in short strokes. Work from the muzzle to the breech. This is done in the beginning to remove any gun oils in the barrel. Later, you do this between shots to remove the fouling from the bore. After the damp patch, then work two dry patches through the bore. This will remove additional fouling and also dry the bore.

At this point I like to push a dry patch to the bottom of the breech on the ramrod jag. Then put a 209 primer into the breech plug. Now fire just that primer off. This blows any oil, etc that might have accumulated in the breech plug onto the cloth. Also it will indicate when you pull the patch and see the burn marks on it, that your fire channel is clean. When you see the burn marks, that’s what you want. You’re ready to load and shoot.

Measure out the amount of powder you wish to shoot in your rifle. Most modern inline rifles handle 100 grains of 2f grade powder and a modern projectile real well. Your powder might be in pellet form. So in this case, drop two pellets down the bore. With loose powder, set your measure and then fill to the top. Level the load and then dump that volume measure of powder down the bore. Some people will tap the butt of their rifle on their toe to level the powder charge. It is not really needed with the modern inline rifles but does not harm.

Now select your sabot and bullet. Put the bullet into the sabot. Put the sabot/bullet combination onto the muzzle or into the false muzzle of the rifle. Now with your short starter, push then sabot/bullet into the barrel as far as you can. Now with the ramrod, seat the bullet down the barrel onto the powder charge firmly.

You then put a primer into the back of the breech plug, and you are ready to shoot. Have fun. After you have shot, you need to swab the bore again like described earlier. Then load as described. And shoot again. Just repeat this procedure.



TRADITIONAL RIFLE….


Make sure the rifle is clean and empty. So take a patch, lightly apply some isopropyl alcohol and swab the bore of the rifle. When you swab, put the patch over the end of the barrel and push the ramrod with the cleaning/loading jag into the patch. As you work the patch down the bore, work the patch in short strokes. Work from the muzzle to the breech. This is done in the beginning to remove any gun oils in the barrel. After the damp patch, then work two dry patches through the bore. With a dry patch pushed down to the breech, put a #11 cap or musket cap, which ever one your rifle takes, and pop that cap. Now pull that dry patch and check for burn marks on the patch. If you see none, do it again. Once you see the burn mark, I like to pop one more cap. Now you are ready to load the rifle.


Measure out the amount of powder you wish to shoot in your rifle. You can pour the powder from the jug into a powder measure, but never pour from the jug into the barrel of the rifle. So now you have a measured charge of powder down the barrel. Take a patch and if it is not pre lubed, apply the lube to it. Set that over the muzzle of the bore. Now put a round ball onto the patch. With the short starter, knock that ball under the crown. Now with the long nose of the short starter, push the patch and ball as deep as you can, into the barrel. Finish seating the ball and patch with the ramrod.

If you are shooting conical bullets, after you have dumped the powder, put the lubed conical (if the conical requires lube) and with the short starter, drive that conical as deep as you can into the bore. Now finish seating the conical onto the powder charge. Make sure you do so firmly.

Now cock the hammer of the rifle back. And place a cap or musket cap onto the nipple. Carefully lower the hammer down to half cock. Once you cock that rifle it is ready to fire.
 



Quote
Also, it appears everyone just uses these with #11 Caps, any advantage or disadvantage to switching to musket caps or is there simply no gain? 


It is widely believed that a Musket is stronger/hotter than a #11 cap.... and it if you a talking about a regular #11 cap.  But, #11 MAG caps burn at the same temperature as does a musket cap.  If your powder is dry and under the nipple a #11 will do everything that a musket cap will do + I believe it has a couple of advantages.  It can be nearly water proof if installed on the correct fitting nipple and referring to that same nipple it will not fall off.  You do not have to bend it squeeze it or anything.  Use a capper to put it on the post install it snuggly and your done.

[quote[Also, is real black powder way better in these than Pyrodex?[/quote]  No not necessarily but a lot of people prefer real BP.  Myself I hate the Pyros - but they work very well for a lot of people.  I shoot T7-3f from my traditiona ML's with a #11 mag cap.

Here are three of my favorites...



Quote
   I feel like I'm going from "city kid" muzzleloading to "farm kid/old school" muzzleloading and I need some help with my transition.


They are a ton of fun to shoot and you get a good feeling about it.

Quote
Do I use any kind of patch with say a conical maxi ball?


No patches with a conical they should be lubed and you will need a short starter to get them started in the bore.

Quote
  I actually like this gun as opposed to my pile of garbage CVA and want to try to do it right.  Please help.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 06:38:33 PM by Sabotloader »
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Encore 280

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Re: Need Cleaning Help on a Hawken Style
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2012, 06:10:20 PM »
Are all 3 of those Renegades with peep sites? Which peep sites do you use? A friend needs one on his due to if he can see the front site he can't see the animal and vice versa.

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Need Cleaning Help on a Hawken Style
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2012, 06:34:58 PM »
Are all 3 of those Renegades with peep sites? Which peep sites do you use? A friend needs one on his due to if he can see the front site he can't see the animal and vice versa.

One has a Lyman 57SML, the next is a TC tang sight, and last is a homemade adaptation, but all three have a .091 apeture which is the recommended size for hunting.  Not as good target shooting.  One of the apetures also has brass lowlight glow ring it.  Still most often when I am hunting early in the morning or low light in the evening I just take the apeture out and use the sight as a ghost ring...

For your friend... the .091 could work very well, if he learns to ignore the rear peep, focus on the front sight, and let his eye align the sites, it will do it automatically.  The .091 should allow him to see the front blade and the animal - if it does not thake the apeture and try it as a ghost ring.
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Encore 280

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Re: Need Cleaning Help on a Hawken Style
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2012, 07:10:48 PM »
If ya need a 4th one, he'd probably sell it. :tup:

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Need Cleaning Help on a Hawken Style
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 07:37:29 PM »
If ya need a 4th one, he'd probably sell it. :tup:


whitch da ya got?

Have you ever seen the RWS 'V' Peep sight - that might really work for him...

http://www.rmcsports.com/catalog.htm

Look in the Sections index and choose Blackpowder Sights

Go down the page to 'V' Peep
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 07:43:27 PM by Sabotloader »
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Encore 280

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Re: Need Cleaning Help on a Hawken Style
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2012, 08:16:07 PM »
He's got a Renegade 50 with the fibre optic sights.

Offline MagKarl

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Re: Need Cleaning Help on a Hawken Style
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 10:09:09 AM »
Get yourself a good fitting jag and brush for your bore.  Get some appropriately sized cotton cleaning patches.   You'll also likely want to have a smaller brush like 30-35 cal to reach into the breech.  I use Goex black powder, so I only use water and a drop of dish soap, no solvent.  If you use synthetic powder you may need something else.  I use a plastic coffee can to clean mine.  Fill with hot water and drop of soap.  Pull the nipple and drop in the can.  Clean with a tooth brush and tooth pick.  Remove the barrel and stand breech end in the can/bucket.  Wet a patch and gently push it down the bore, then pump up and down the bore to clean and force water in/out through the channel.   I'll run a brush a few swipes as well.  I'll alternate wet and dry patches till the bore is clean.  Then put a patch on the 30 cal rifle brush and push it down to wipe the breech.  When I'm satisfied that the bore and breech are clean, I rinse with hot water and immediately dry to avoid rust.  Make sure you also dry the breech.  Then soak down with your favorite preservative/lube.

There is no "best" method for all shooters and guns.  It's hotly debated, just find the method that works for you.   

Offline luvmystang67

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Re: Need Cleaning Help on a Hawken Style
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 12:11:40 PM »
Thanks for the feedback all, I think I have a pretty good idea now. 

Found a lot of good cleaning stuff and general muzzleloading stuff for all calibers from this site for pretty reasonable....

http://www.rmcsports.com/catalog.htm

 



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