Over/Under advice please?

[singleshot12]

CZ kills, got 7 out of 8 shots today

[Stilly bay]

my only problem with the citori feather is that it has a aluminum receiver, its going to loosen up a lot sooner than a lot of guns if you shoot enough.
 and because its so light it would really benefit from 28" bbls.

CZ Redhead Deluxe

great gun for the money. they handle well for some, poorly for others. the single trigger makes me nervous. CZ's mallard has mechanical double triggers which are much more relialbe and bullet proof... they don't really hold their value unless they are minty.

Franchi Instinct SL

never shot a franchi but the ones I have handled seem cheaply and poorly made when just a little bit more money will get you better mechanics.

Browning 625 Field

great guns but they are going to put you very high in the 20 gauge weight class, close to or over 7lbs. a good 20gauge game gun should come in right about six lbs or slightly more depending on wood and BBL length. another thing to consider is that the browning 626 has a much higher profile than many other O/U, the new 725 model has fixed this with a shorter receiver but I don't know if they have started producing them in 20 gauge yet.

Beretta 686 silver pigeon

a very light and low profile gun.
 the only gun on your list that has cast built into the stock ( it means the stock is bent to benefit the shooter) a little cast can really change your shooting life for the better if you all you have shot is neutral guns.

I own two. a 20 gauge silver pigeon with 30" bbls is like a light saber. just a shade over 6lbs and a joy to shoot and carry.
berettas are the most modular guns on the market. all 680 series are identical mechanically within their own gauge, price rises with finish options. so a Silver pigeon for $2k is mechanically the same as one of their high end silver pigeon V for $6k-8K.
because of the 680 series (silver pigeons) modular design various parts can be easily removed and replaced if the wear out. few guns on your list are built this way.

I bought my base model SP1'd and in a few years once I get the money I plan on upgrading the stocks, and having few other things done making them high end guns that didn't break the bank.

Cole's Gunsmithing are THE Beretta O/U people and do amazing work http://www.colegun.com/  check it out, but don't get any drool on your key board.

Beretta Onyx

the same gun as the silver pigeon, just with a black finish and little engraving. I own one of these in 28gauge on a 20 gauge frame. Im never selling this gun, its like magic for me.

take care of any beretta or browning and you might not get a return in your investment but they won't lose value over the years. franchis, CZ's, mossbergs not so much.

last but not least, in a 20 gauge go with 28" or even 30" barrels, longer bbls will help with a smooth swing. snap shooting with shorter bbls isn't for every one.

don't listen to the people who say "get the one that fits" thats bs. get the one you want, that has the mechanics you believe in and the looks you want and have it modified to fit you. unless your 7 foot tall its should be cheap and easy to change to your needs.

[jackelope]

I'm 6'4" and pretty much every factory gun I have handled is too short LOP for me. My stepdad shoots K guns, full custom fitted stocks for him and I shoot those guns 10x more comfortably than mine. Bottom line is to get the most out of a shotgun its got to fit, whether its custom fit or it fits from the factory. . Shoot a pattern board if you can before you buy. Opportunity to do that might be rare though.

[uplandhunter870]

don't listen to the people who say "get the one that fits" thats bs. get the one you want, that has the mechanics you believe in and the looks you want and have it modified to fit you. unless your 7 foot tall its should be cheap and easy to change to your needs.

i would implore you to find a competent stock smith that does quality work that is cheap heck a good looking walnut blank can run in the couple thousand range. you dont have to be 7 foot tall and built like a body builder to need custom work done. there are multiple variables in stock dimensions that dictate fit and feel such as length of pull, grip angle and curvature, narrow versus wide combs, recoil pad surface area, cast and comb offset/comb hieght. all of these are measured by the stock smith while your paying his labor fee on top of the price of the wood

finding a factory stock gun that fits whether its a beretta or mossberg is going to a lot cheaper than having custom work done. however there are a number of cheaper gadgets a guy can buy to create a custom stock feel such as adjustable butt plates and having an adjustable comb cut in or sticking on a stick on comb adjuster or butt spacers to adjust LOP

however we are talking about a field gun here not a tournament gun a person will have to look at the cost/benefit of these. IMO its just easier and ultimately cheaper to hunt around for a gun that fits at factory dimentions than do all the customization work but to each their own

[Stilly bay]

don't listen to the people who say "get the one that fits" thats bs. get the one you want, that has the mechanics you believe in and the looks you want and have it modified to fit you. unless your 7 foot tall its should be cheap and easy to change to your needs.

i would implore you to find a competent stock smith that does quality work that is cheap heck a good looking walnut blank can run in the couple thousand range. you dont have to be 7 foot tall and built like a body builder to need custom work done. there are multiple variables in stock dimensions that dictate fit and feel such as length of pull, grip angle and curvature, narrow versus wide combs, recoil pad surface area, cast and comb offset/comb hieght. all of these are measured by the stock smith while your paying his labor fee on top of the price of the wood

finding a factory stock gun that fits whether its a beretta or mossberg is going to a lot cheaper than having custom work done. however there are a number of cheaper gadgets a guy can buy to create a custom stock feel such as adjustable butt plates and having an adjustable comb cut in or sticking on a stick on comb adjuster or butt spacers to adjust LOP

however we are talking about a field gun here not a tournament gun a person will have to look at the cost/benefit of these. IMO its just easier and ultimately cheaper to hunt around for a gun that fits at factory dimentions than do all the customization work but to each their own

having a custom stock built to your dimensions does no good unless your gun mount is perfected.

90% of shooters are not going to get a gun fit to that extreme. most will just fit by how it feels off the rack and pointing at the gun room ceiling fewer still will actually go to the length of shooting a few rounds to try out a gun before buying it. I would wager their concept of what fits  doesn't go too far past  Length of Pull. changing the length of pull is a pretty cheap procedure for most gunsmiths, its also something you can do at home if you do a little research. I have seen too many people be turned off of a particular brand of gun because "it didn't fit" when all it would take is a half inch one way or the other.

I would highly disagree on the importance of fit for a field gun. this is where fit is the most important! when you climb to the top of a chukar hill huffing and puffing  for the only shot you may get in a couple of weeks, you want that gun come up exactly where its supposed to.
 I do agree that having an entire stock carved to fit your dimensions really would be ideal, but there are many things people can do to improve gun fit that aren't going to hurt the bank account and a good place to start is LOP because generally these days most factory guns are build to the same stock dimensions -so they won't lose out to other companies that supposedly fit better.

I'm 6'4" and pretty much every factory gun I have handled is too short LOP for me. My stepdad shoots K guns, full custom fitted stocks for him and I shoot those guns 10x more comfortably than mine. Bottom line is to get the most out of a shotgun its got to fit, whether its custom fit or it fits from the factory. . Shoot a pattern board if you can before you buy. Opportunity to do that might be rare though.

or shoot a round of trap with several guns and make note on which one fit better and what their stock dimensions are.
Don't waste your money on a professional fitting until you have your gun mount perfected, otherwise a fitting won't help at all.

and don't listen to those trap club gurus that tell you to check gun fit by putting the butt in the crook of your elbow and see if your finger can reach the trigger. its absolute malarky.

[uplandhunter870]

i apologize to the OP is this getting a bit off topic


i agree with what youre saying Stilly but i guess what i was trying to convey is that im not trying to say that fit is not important in a field gun. it is just as important as with a tournament gun but the degree of fit does not need to be as exact as a tourny gun i feel

and yeah a completely custom carved stock to your individual measurements will do nothing if your mount is poor but proper gun mount and proper sight picture is something that is learned from repetition and muscle memory. you can have a perfectly fitting stock and if you mis-mount your gun your going to have a higher chance of missing. proper mount technique and stock fit are not necessarily correlated although a proper fitting stock helps a ton, if your gun is biting you due to improper fit you will mount the gun where it doesnt hurt to shoot it which many times is not where you should properly mount the gun.

and here we are circling back to importance of fit, haha

oh and a real easy cheap way to adjust LOP, which im sure you know, just insert some brass or galvanized washers between the recoil pad and butt stock once you get it where you like it measure the height of the washers and have a nice spacer made to fit the stock. washers can also be used to adjust the pitch of the gun as well

[Stilly bay]

 im not trying to say that fit is not important in a field gun. it is just as important as with a tournament gun but the degree of fit does not need to be as exact as a tourny gun i feel

care to elaborate?

[uplandhunter870]

 im not trying to say that fit is not important in a field gun. it is just as important as with a tournament gun but the degree of fit does not need to be as exact as a tourny gun i feel

care to elaborate?

yeah. this may be a bit long winded

  I am a tournament shooter mainly shoot ATA registered trapshoots and as by my call name im an avid bird hunter. as a competitive shooter i demand that my guns fit me exactly the way i want them to and both of my tournament guns have adjustable features to make that possible. in the clay target world success requires perfection or near perfection this starts at the grass roots tournaments all the way up to the olympics. the second reason i believe tourny guns need to fit to the gnats posterior is that over the typical day at a tourny we shoot anywhere between 300-450 shells (depending on the program and any shoot offs) having the gun fit perfectly greatly reduces felt recoil by allowing more of our body to absorb the recoil thus improving shooting stamina.  also having a perfectly fit gun allows you to deal with weather effects on targets easier and the distances that the clays are shot. for american trapshooting a fast shooter shooting 16yd targets (singles) will break the clay between 25 and 35 yards your average shooter will break them between 35 and 50yds. for handicap shooting especially the longer yard lines like the 27 the target break zones are much farther, when shooting from the 27 most shooters will not even see the clay until it is about 35yds away from them.  this is where having a good solid stock weld, proper mount and sight picture become paramount to success at this distance.

now field shooting;

in the bird hunting arena (at least for me) the distances that most birds are killed at are relatively short compared to clay shooting (except skeet).  here in this arena i would sacrifice a little bit of fit in order to gain a quick proper mount and sight picture acquisition. fit is still very important cause as well all know an ill fitting gun is about as much fun to shoot as wearing skivvies that are two sizes too small and we just are not going to hit much with it however in my opinion a field gun does not need to be dialed in to the gnats rump mainly because we are dealing with shorter shots and fewer shots in a fast paced setting. i believe the key to successful wingshooting is quick proper mount and rapid sight picture acquisition a gun needs to fit well to do this and mount must be practiced. in a field gun i believe that we can get away with sacrificing a little bit of perfect fit a 1/4"of LOP or 1/2" of comb raising may make the gun fit exactly perfectly to you but as long as the gun comes up quickly and properly and shoots were you are looking and youre not winging a lot of birds why spend the $80-$100 to get an adjustable comb when the gun already fits well and is sucessfully fulfilling its role.

personally i shoot a moderately priced krieghoff for trapshooting. i can adjust everything on the stock except grip angle and curvature and i have i spent a whole day a few months ago re adjusting everything after i lost some wieght. i want that gun to be an extension of my body and securely welded into my shoulder and face. for field guns i shoot predominately remington 870s in 12 20 and 410 with no adjustments possible and they do just as well as my tourny gun.

in clay shooting we have time to deliberately mount our guns and get ready before we call for a target so we can make sure the gun is welded were we want it, in hunting who knows when a quail hun chuckar or pheasant is going to flush (unless you hunt behind dogs, i dont) so we need a gun that we can quickly and accurately mount and shoot. for a field shooting situation i rather have a gun that mounts quickly and naturally over a gun that i have to deliberately and methodically mount

[Stilly bay]

 im not trying to say that fit is not important in a field gun. it is just as important as with a tournament gun but the degree of fit does not need to be as exact as a tourny gun i feel

care to elaborate?

in clay shooting we have time to deliberately mount our guns and get ready before we call for a target so we can make sure the gun is welded were we want it, in hunting who knows when a quail hun chuckar or pheasant is going to flush (unless you hunt behind dogs, i dont) so we need a gun that we can quickly and accurately mount and shoot. for a field shooting situation i rather have a gun that mounts quickly and naturally over a gun that i have to deliberately and methodically mount

gotcha, this is where we differ.
I am first and foremost a bird hunter but I do  shoot a lot of clays mainly to practice mechanics, muscle memory, gun mount, all that good stuff.

BUT i always shoot low gun, I have been doing it this way my whole life and quite frankly couldn't hit the side of a barn if I started at high gun. in field shooting I too want a gun that mounts quickly and naturally and that is fitted as closely to my body as I can get, no matter how tired I am or how bad my shoulders hurt or my neck aches from lugging around three blue grouse. the closer you can get your gun fitted to the gnats rump the better off you are. and if spending $100 bucks on a modification  will help put two or three extra birds in my bag per year with this gun that I might have missed otherwise, it really seems too cheap to pass up. 
 it seems like the Sporting clays tournament guys will spend  thousands for something that will give them enough edge to break an extra target or two... should hunters be any different?

the same stamina you speak of while shooting tournaments probably doesn't even come close to the stamina it takes to bring down that last chukar in your limit. but as a tournament shooter your mechanics and muscle memory probably far surpass that of most average hunters and shooters so you probably would do well with just about any gun you pick up within reasonable dimension. what I am mainly suggesting is a happy middle ground for most average joes, since any adjustment towards perfection is better than not doing anything. repeatability

in other words I agree with you. 

 

[HoofsandWings]

Did anyone mention the Weatherby?

[jetjockey]

I would skip the cheaper guns and narrow your search down to Berettas, Brownings, or either of the 3 Mirokus (they built guns for Charles Dailey, Browning, and under the Miroku name).  The quality will be a nice step up from the CZs, Red Labels, etc.  Doubles are expensive because they cost a lot to build.  You don't want to go cheap when it comes to a double.  Fit is important, but don't get too hung up on a perfect fit.  When shooting competition you typically wear the same shooting vest and your clothes are typically the same thickness.  When hunting, you might be wearing anything from a thin shooting shirt to a bulky jacket with lots of layers.  That alone will change the "fit" of a gun.....  If my budget was under $1000 I would limit my search to a used Miroku.  Between $1000-$2000 you can find Berettas and Brownings.  For $2000-$10,000 you can add Ceasar Guerinis and some really nice SXS's...  It's all a matter of money.  Btw.  Skip the 26 and go with a 28 or even a 30.  Light doubles can be a little "wippy" if you don't have enough barrel infront of you.

Here's some sames of guns out there

http://www.gunsinternational.com/-Miroku-Charles-Daly-Over-Under-20-gauge-shotgun-S2850-.cfm?gun_id=100292431

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Beretta-686-White-Onyx-20-Gauge.cfm?gun_id=100310364

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Beretta-686-Onyx-20-Ga-.cfm?gun_id=100291199

[Stilly bay]

I would skip the cheaper guns and narrow your search down to Berettas, Brownings, or either of the 3 Mirokus (they built guns for Charles Dailey, Browning, and under the Miroku name).  The quality will be a nice step up from the CZs, Red Labels, etc.    If my budget was under $1000 I would limit my search to a used Miroku.

mirokus are decent for the money but most of them can't handle steel shot. some of the later ones with interchangeable chokes can handle steel but they aren't usually the bargain that other fixed choked mirokus would be, not to mention they aren't nearly as plentiful. if the OP is never going to areas where steel shot is mandatory a miroku would be excellent choice... unless lead is banned in the near future. Investment wise I would play it safe for steel and stick with a "B" gun.

 

When shooting competition you typically wear the same shooting vest and your clothes are typically the same thickness.  When hunting, you might be wearing anything from a thin shooting shirt to a bulky jacket with lots of layers.  That alone will change the "fit" of a gun.....

good point. my duck guns all have a shorter LOP to accommodate heavy late season clothing. but if your just going to have one upland gun its not terribly difficult to change pad thickness to adjust the LOP  as the season progresses. usually two screws and your good to go.

[jetjockey]

Or you could send it out to have choke tubes put in it.  You could also just use any of the other non toxics, even though they are on the pricey side.  If I was in the OP's shoes, Id just look for a nice 686 SP or White Onyx.  I wouldn't waste my money for a less expensive double.  They are less expensive for a reason. 

As far a LOP goes, I've hunted pheasant in SD with my 686 20 ga in December.  We started hunting in 10 degree air and it warmed up to 35 in the afternoon.  In the morning I was bundled up, but by the time it warmed up and we were moving I was down to just a shooting shirt.  That's why I don't get too hung up on LOP being perfect.  A funny thing happened when hunting pheasants in PA this year.  We went out for the morning hunt and I grabbed my shotgun case and headed out.  When we got to the field I I cases my gun and whoops, it was my Father In laws Ceasar Guerini EVO 20.   The only problem is he had the stock shortened and the gun was too short for me.  I hunted with it anyway since I didn't want to go back to the farm house.  I proceeded to shoot it nearly as well as my Beretta.  For 90% of us, learning how to mount a shotgun properly and keeping our heads on the stock will go a hell of a lot further than a custom fit gun.  A gun can fit perfectly but if your raising your head and not getting a good mount, a perfectly fit gun wont do crap.  90% of the factory guns are "close enough" to fit 90% of the shooters decently. 

[SeaRun1]

Just following up...

I have learned a lot from this thread and want to thank everyone for taking the time to post and add their thoughts.  I looked at all of my options and went with one that fit well and looked attractive to me.

I picked up the Beretta Silver Pigeon in 20 gauge with 28" barrels.  Looking forward to knocking down some birds this weekend.

Thanks again fellas.

SR1

[Heredoggydoggy]

Glad you got a shotgun you like.  Confidence in your gun is a big part of the process.  Remember--You didn't have to sign a marriage contract to  get the gun.  If it turns out you don't like it, get rid of it and get another one!