Three point or better laws

[Muleyslyr]

ridge.....as far as killing the bigger maturer bucks before they have a chance to breed, that is obviously true.  But, just because a smaller, less mature buck ends up breeding with a couple does that big mature buck should've been, doesn't mean he's not passing on his Genetics.  Those smaller 2 and 3pts that end up gettin' some tail, maybe just be some of those big migratory bucks in a few years.  Therefore, their genetics have been passed.

Does that make any sense??

[Dman]

 This is an interesting question, one I've discussed with Mark Quinn in the past. He formerly held Dave Ware's position as big game manager, he feels that the three point, or even two point rules don't mimic what happen's in nature. He also mentioned that in some parts of the State, there has been large numbers of 2 year old deer jumping to 3 pt. or better harvested, so virtually no truly mature deer were breeding. Whether that's good or bad I don't know. I do know that by my own visual observation in my hunting area the three point rule has been a great success, but I'm sure it varies.

[BrushChimp]

I think the 3-point restriction is great. It's been great for elk here in Western Washington. The numbers of 3-point or better bulls has gone up drastically since this rule was enacted. The thing that isn't helping matters any are those darn cows permits. Every tom, dick, and harry from the city gets those things, comes down here, shoots at a herd of elk out in a farmers field, hits 4 or 5 cows, and just picks up the ONE cow that happens to drop dead on the spot in the field while the wounded cows run on into the brush and die. I've encountered this numerous times. Besides that, there are too many cows tags to begin with. Elk herd numbers have falling drastically since those cows permits have been given out despite an increase in 3-pt. or better bulls. A 40+ number herd is hard to find in Nov., but 6-7 years ago they were hard to miss.

As far as the blacktails over here are concerned, we need at least a 2-pt or better restriction and fast. Deer numbers are the lowest they've been in a long while. With this "hair loss syndrome" that our WDFW will put no money into research, and grown men shooting button bucks and spikes we are having a hard time supporting a deer population like we had 10 years ago. It's sad really. When you see 4 grown men blasting away at a spike buck. Though there is no restriction, I've hunted 2-pt. or better since I started hunting 7 years ago. It was just the way I was raised.

As far as the "it's-bad-that-younger-bucks/bulls-are-breeding-does/cows-instead-of-mature-bucks/bulls" goes, I believe that sperm is sperm and genetics are genetics. Whether it comes from a spike buck when he is 1.5 y.o. or that same spike buck 4 years later, the genetics in his sperm are still the same. So a doe bred by a buck during any time in that buck's life will yield the same resultant fawn. His genetics cannot mutate over time and somehow become "better." But that's just the way I think about it...

[Opportunist]

I'd rather see controlled hunts for deer and develop some trophies instead of the spindly 3's and 4's killed eastside. A few trophy bucks are taken each year in the general season but on the whole most of the bucks are dinks that are passed up in most good mule deer states; WY, CO, UT, AZ, ID. I'd rather go mule deer hunting every few years and have a quality hunt than every year shooting last years crop of forkhorns.

[boneaddict]

I agree and disagree.  Some trophy hunts would be nice around here, or have a special area or too.  I guess we sort of have that with the desert A tag.  Unfortuanately I'll probably never get drawn for it.  They shut the Methow down in the alta unit for a couple years.  It grew some hawgs.  Once again, I never got drawn.  One thing about shutting down possible hunts or hunters is that it looses your lobby group, and soon you are outnumbered when it comes to the vote.  In the case of the alta, I couldn't hunt in my backyard where I hunted for years.  Now I am back hunting it and enjoy great success even with the mobs.

[Muleyslyr]

Brush.....your last paragraph is pretty much exactly what I was trying to say.  You definately explained it better than I.   

[BrushChimp]

Yeah Muleyslyr, I understood what you were saying, lol.. I'm on the same page as you.

[hunterofelk]

I usually go 4 point or better, so I have no problem with the restriction.  I do worry we will end up with muley genetics favoring two points.  I've seen two bucks with spreads of 24 inches at least and only the main fork.  No eye brows, just two points.  These bucks were mature and spreading this gene around.  Also, I wonder about how many two points are left to lay because someone made a mistake.

[Ironhead]

20 years ago I saw giant 2 pts in the Swakane and Entiat they were there before the rule 3 pt or better rule, there may be more now but it's only because they aren't legal to shoot. I think there are more mature bucks now than there have been in the last 25 to 30 years. The big smart breeders only get killed (for the most part ) during the late rut hunts, yea there are some nice bucks killed during the general season but we all know the majority of the big boys don't come down till the general season closes, so the talk about the young bucks doing the breeding and the big bucks all getting shot before the rut just isn't the case. 3 pt or better is the best thing you can do for mature buck management short of draw only.

[Dman]

 Prior to the 3pt. rule in the NE corner of the State I saw only two mature bucks in five years prior. Since then I see a couple every year and some real hogs. You can just see how the bucks in that area climb up into the tough country once they get a couple years under their belts. Before 1997 it was just dumb spikes and forkys standing around in the open, with the very occasional larger buck taken. I've even seen an increase in larger whitetails harvested due to people not being able to just snap off a shot at any buck, though as someone mentioned there are still some who do anyways. In one particular camp they had two forky's hanging in the open and talked out loud about how they shoot once they see horn -around 2003 I believe. My uncle just told them, I hope the warden doesn't come by, that deer is obviously not legal. They insisted it was based on a 1/2" eyeguard on one side...

[jackelope]

...but officer...you can hang a ring on it...

[boneaddict]

Thats the ticket too.  I had a very law abiding christian friend down here who shot a buck because he thought it was a three.  It was at about 30 feet, so he had no problem seeing that little eyeguard.  He loaded it up and was headed home when he got stopped.  The wardens nailed him.  That wasn't a legal buck, the point was 3/4 of an inch.  He got nailed with fines, and lost hunting priviledges for three years. He had no clue he had broken the law.

[MichaelJ]

ridge.....as far as killing the bigger maturer bucks before they have a chance to breed, that is obviously true.  But, just because a smaller, less mature buck ends up breeding with a couple does that big mature buck should've been, doesn't mean he's not passing on his Genetics.  Those smaller 2 and 3pts that end up gettin' some tail, maybe just be some of those big migratory bucks in a few years.  Therefore, their genetics have been passed.

Does that make any sense??

It makes sense but there is a very real problem with that based on mule deer biology.  What mule deer does will do, is in the early stages of the rut (late October to Middle of November), they will tend to not allow younger more immature bucks breed them.  They know they're looking for a big mature buck to knock 'em up and will typically ignore lesser ones.  However if there are no mature bucks around, the rut will progress and many of the does that weren't bred during the early rut will wait until late november/early december to get bred by an immature buck.  So yes, he's still passing on his genes, but the fawns produced from this are one-two months behind in age for the upcoming winter which means they aren't as physically prepared/mature as they should be which results in a higher fawn mortality rate... so we do want the mature bucks doing the breeding if possible...

As for the three point or better law, I agree with it, but I think we should have something similar to what Canada does... during the early part of the season, have a two point only, and four point or better law.  This would let the meat hunters get their small bucks in the freezer, and take out some of those MONSTER two point bucks that are commonly found in the Entiat and other units in the state.  Then once the season progresses, make it a three point or better law to allow the trophy hunters a crack at some more mature bucks...  By doing this we could weed out the bad genetics on a short term hunt (like the first 4-5 days of the season) while letting the hunters that are there for the 4 point or better season be hunting among other trophy hunters thus reducing the hunting pressure... this I agree with but I like option number two below...

What I would really support is a 3 point or better season, except once every 3-5 years introduce a two point or better season to cut back on those big mature forkies and to cut the herd back to a more quality genetic gene pool.  This way, we'd still have the benefits of the three point or better rules, with a hunting "cull" every few years to weed out the bad genetics... what say you to that?

Michael

[Machias]

One of the lines of thinking concerning the 3 pt is allowing the younger bucks to gain the wisdom shall we say to become much better at escape and evasion.  Once a buck gets to be four + years old they become a differenat animal in 95% of their daily routine.  For the most part that allows them the craftiness to survive our seasons.  Even if a buck is a huge 2X2 and is in the 4 plus range they may have genetically inferior racks but they are by no means stupid.  There are some HUGE bucks that are never seen, even during the rut.  That is based on some huge sheds that are dropped well after the season.  Just because you see an inferior little buck chasing does around does not mean the little guys are doing any breeding.  They may be harassing the does in daylight, but the majority of them does are being breed by some real brusiers.

One thing about the elk and this has been born out.  It's not necessarily the genetics they are worried about being passed along by the younger bulls.  It's the fact that young bulls are not as good at inpregnating the cows, therefore the cows drop their calves over several days, even a couple of weeks which allows predators to kill and consume more than if the cows which are breed by herd bulls all drop within a couple of days of each other.

[boneaddict]

Both of you have very good points and I think there is truth about both of your theories.
Anybody been down to the two point only region in Idaho?